S1: Hello, friends. Welcome to Open Line with Doctor Michael Clinic.
S1: My name is Michael Redlick. I'm the academic dean and
S1: professor of Jewish studies and Bible at Moody Bible Institute.
S1: Thanks for joining me at the kitchen table for our
S1: Bible study across America. You know, normally you talk with
S1: me and ask your questions about the Bible, God and
S1: the spiritual life. But today's program is prerecorded, so please,
S1: please don't call today. You can learn more about Open Line.
S1: You can hear past programs and connect to our social
S1: media pages and find all sorts of stuff you're looking for,
S1: as well as post your question about the Bible at
S1: our website. Online radio.org. That's open line radio. Org. It's
S1: time to get yourself a cup of coffee and grab
S1: your Bible for a very special open line. In 2023,
S1: open line went on the road to Eden Prairie, Minnesota,
S1: a suburb of Minneapolis, as part of a Chosen People
S1: Ministries conference called Finding Shalom Peace in a Troubled World.
S1: We broadcast live from that conference. We took questions from
S1: the audience and talked with a few friends about Jewish ministry.
S1: Before we get back to those questions. I want to
S1: let you know about our current resource. Do you ever
S1: feel overwhelmed trying to understand how all the books of
S1: the New Testament fit together? Well, that's why we want
S1: to send you a copy of survey of the New
S1: Testament by Paul Benware. It's a comprehensive guide that will
S1: take us on a journey from Matthew to Revelation. It
S1: will help us grasp the grand narrative of God's Word.
S1: We'll discover how each book connects to tell one magnificent
S1: story of God's redemptive plan. And you can get a
S1: copy of survey of the New Testament when you give
S1: a gift of any size to open line. Just visit
S1: our website openlibrary.org or call 447122 before we head back
S1: to Wooddale Church in Eden Prairie, Minnesota. I want to
S1: remind you that we air this program in May of 2023,
S1: five months before Hamas attacked Israel on October 7th. My
S1: friend Robin will be talking about the ministry she does
S1: in Israel, and she still ministers among Israelis, and it's
S1: been going on since then. What she tells me now
S1: is that people are more spiritually open than ever before.
S1: I met Robin when she was a college student, and
S1: I was leading a congregation in New York, and I
S1: began by asking Robin where she lives and what she does. So, Robin,
S1: where do you live and and what do you do?
S2: I live in Tel Aviv, Israel, and I am the
S2: branch leader for an amazing staff team of Chosen People
S2: ministries in Israel.
S1: Yeah. Yeah. And how did we meet?
S2: Um, we met because my mother, who was not a believer,
S2: called you and said, my daughter is in so much trouble.
S2: I'd like you to come and talk to her about Jesus.
S1: So Robin was a college student in Boston, came home
S1: for Thanksgiving, and I went to see her on the
S1: Wednesday before Thanksgiving. I just her mom had been attending
S1: our congregation but had not yet made, and I think
S1: we're still waiting for her to make a decision.
S2: A couple of years she did.
S1: Oh, she did. I didn't realize. Oh that's great. So, anyway,
S1: her mom, uh, asked me to come talk with Robin,
S1: and afterwards I went home after. I guess it was
S1: about two hours.
S2: We talked for probably a while.
S1: Yeah, it was a good while. I said, I have
S1: never I said to my wife, I have never met
S1: a more hostile young person ever in my whole life.
S1: She was the most hostile person I've ever engaged about
S1: faith and about the good news of Yeshua. And of course,
S1: what happened.
S2: A member of your congregation, Tony. She was a good
S2: friend of my mother's in high school, and they had reconnected.
S2: That's how my mother came in contact with you. She
S2: would come over just about every day, and she would
S2: either say to me, the Bible says, or Michael says,
S2: but whatever Michael said was in the Bible, too. Yeah.
S1: And so she talked with you. You were you were
S1: home for a while.
S2: I was home because I was sick. I had become
S2: very sick when I was in school, and I had
S2: to move home. And every day she would tell me,
S2: come to church, we'll pray for you and God will
S2: heal you. But also I want to talk to you
S2: about the Messiah.
S1: How long did it take for for her to get
S1: through to you?
S2: I think it was about 9 or 10 months of
S2: her almost every day coming over. She'd share a prophecy.
S2: I wouldn't let her share New Testament. She'd share a
S2: prophecy of the Messiah. I would get hostile with her,
S2: and she would just laugh and say, okay, you've had
S2: enough for today. Bye bye. I'll see you tomorrow.
S1: Yeah, that does sound exactly like Tony. Yeah. So. Okay,
S1: so I know what happened to me is, I think
S1: the first time I was leading a Passover seder and
S1: Tony brought you. Yeah. And and I looked and I thought,
S1: is that the same girl? And she had never told
S1: me that she was going to see you or anything
S1: like that. And you had become a follower of Yeshua?
S2: Yeah. That was a funny Seder, because you kept interrupting
S2: yourself every 10 or 15 minutes and saying, no, everyone,
S2: you don't understand. She can become a believer. Anyone can
S2: become a believer.
S1: Yeah, that was pretty cool. So okay, so tell me
S1: about what you're doing in Israel. What kind of outreach
S1: are you doing to reach Jewish people?
S2: Well, we are in Israel. The way we reach Jewish
S2: people is so diverse. Um, but we're working a lot
S2: through ministry centers that are like community centers with a
S2: faith base. So we're able to create a create a
S2: space that believers can come and be discipled, but they
S2: can also at music events or cultural events, invite their
S2: non-believing friends, and it creates a really safe bridge to
S2: openly dialogue about faith and who the Messiah is.
S1: I think that that's one of the best ways. Safe
S1: place a cup of coffee. It's a great place to talk,
S1: but how do you meet Jewish people when you're not
S1: in Israel? Do you go other places?
S2: Oh, yes. So all Israelis serve in the army, and
S2: then it's tradition to go travel the world. And they
S2: don't just go anywhere, but they generally go on specific waves.
S2: They follow a path. So I can tell you where
S2: to find 10,000 Israelis, a place in India eating hummus
S2: instead of tikka masala. And we go, we bring teams
S2: and we backpack alongside them, building relationships, breaking bread together,
S2: sharing the gospel. But we also chosen people ministries, has
S2: hostels in some strategic places that the that the Israelis
S2: love to go and it's free for three days to
S2: show God's love in a practical way.
S1: And then you have young people come with you and
S1: join these, uh, treks that you take with them and meet,
S1: meet Israelis, write.
S2: Many of your students.
S1: And.
S2: Even your own son.
S1: Yeah, yeah. Who was a student of mine? He had
S1: just graduated from Moody at the time. But also we
S1: have students that leave Moody Bible Institute for their, uh,
S1: Jewish ministry internship, and they go off. I trust Robin
S1: with them. I don't know why, but I do. Uh,
S1: and they they go off to places like New Zealand and, uh,
S1: to South America and to India and all sorts of
S1: places where Jewish, uh, Israelis, young Israelis, after the army,
S1: they're off trekking to find meaning, to find significance. And
S1: we hope to find Yeshua.
S2: And three of your students this summer are coming to
S2: our team in Israel to serve alongside all our staff
S2: stuff there.
S1: Yeah. Yeah. That's, uh. Students will say to me, is
S1: this a good internship? Well, Robin's a problem, but.
S3: You should go.
S1: No, I tell them all. Robin is an honorary moody grad,
S1: is what it is. She really is not a moody grad,
S1: but she has come so often for our fall missions conference,
S1: which is becoming a winter missions conference next year. Uh,
S1: but she has come so many times to our missions conference, uh,
S1: and comes when she's in Chicago and meets with our
S1: students and encourages them that last year, at the 100th
S1: anniversary celebration for Jewish Studies, we made you an honorary
S1: graduate of Moody. So there we go. Now, now we have.
S4: I love that.
S1: Now we have to get you that honorary doctorate.
S3: So.
S1: We can call you Doctor Robin. So there we go. Uh,
S1: I don't know if that'll happen, but we'll try. So anyway,
S1: I am I'm really grateful for the ministry that Robin
S1: has with Chosen People Ministries. We're going to take a
S1: couple of questions here, but thank you, Robin.
S5: Hi, my name is Mike. I'm from Austin, Minnesota. And
S5: I'd appreciate getting your perspective on the relationship between Israel
S5: and the church.
S1: Ah, well, uh. God, uh, founded the beginning. The beginnings
S1: of Israel is the call of Abraham. Isaac. Jacob. Right. Yeah. Uh, and, uh,
S1: then Israel, of course, continues to exist. However, it's fairly
S1: clear that by the first century, the church did not
S1: yet exist because the Lord Jesus, when after Peter gives
S1: his great confession, the Lord Jesus responds in Matthew 16,
S1: I will build my church. Which means that the church
S1: is not there yet hadn't been built. Uh, another aspect is,
S1: of course, when does the church begin? It seems to
S1: begin at Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit falls and everyone's
S1: speaking those other languages. Do you Do you remember that
S1: story in acts two? And what I think is really
S1: kind of interesting about that is later on, Peter has
S1: to go preach to Cornelius, and when he speaks to Cornelius, Cornelius, uh,
S1: while he's speaking, the Holy Spirit falls on Cornelius. And
S1: those listening, they all believe. And then Peter, you know, decides, well,
S1: I guess we don't have to convert them to Judaism
S1: before they believe in Jesus. Everything's good, but he has
S1: to go and report this, uh, to the leadership. And
S1: he tells the story of what happened in acts 11.
S1: And he says, as I began to speak, this is 1115. Uh,
S1: acts 1115. As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit
S1: came down on them, just as on us at the beginning. Yeah,
S1: the beginning of what? The beginning of the church. So, uh,
S1: there's Israel. There's the church. Israel are the Are the
S1: descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The church is anyone,
S1: Jew or Gentile, who have put their faith in Jesus
S1: and the place where, uh, they overlap. Uh, if you
S1: can see two circles overlapping each other. Uh, one circle
S1: would be Israel. The other circle would be the church.
S1: But where they the I guess you would call that
S1: a concentric, uh, where they reach over the Jewish, where
S1: Israel reaches over into the church as the Jewish believer,
S1: and at the same time, the Jewish believer is the
S1: faithful remnant of Israel. So that's, that's the, the, the
S1: overlap of it. But there is a distinct plan that
S1: God has for the church. I believe will be complete
S1: when the Lord Jesus raptures the church. Then there's a
S1: seven year, uh, plan that God has to bring Israel
S1: to repentance, and then Israel will come to faith. And
S1: God has a is a special plan for Israel when
S1: he returns and establishes the kingdom over them and the world.
S5: That's great.
S1: Thank you. Mhm. We're going to take a break here
S1: when we come back. Uh, we're going to have time
S1: for more questions. This is open line with Michael. My guest.
S1: This segment was Robin from Israel. So glad that you're
S1: here Robin. And we're going to come right back with
S1: more of your questions in just a moment. You're listening
S1: to the Finding Shalom conference on Open Line right here
S1: in Eden Prairie, Minnesota. Stay right there. We're coming back.
S1: Welcome back to Open Line with me, Michael Ray Melnick.
S1: Today's program is prerecorded. So remember don't call. We're listening
S1: to a rebroadcast of a special on the road edition
S1: of Open Line from 2023. We were part of a
S1: Chosen People Ministries conference called Finding Shalom Peace in the
S1: Troubled World and it was held at Wooddale Church in
S1: Eden Prairie, Minnesota, in front of a live audience. And
S1: they asked the questions.
S6: Hello, I'm Gwen. I'm originally from Richfield Springs, New York. Oh, really?
S6: A recent transplant to Aberdeen, South Dakota. Wow. With my
S6: husband and three teens.
S1: New York to South Dakota. That's a that's a cultural change.
S6: Yeah, yeah. A bit. So this is my question. Um,
S6: in first Corinthians five seven through eight, it says, for
S6: indeed Christ our Passover was sacrificed for us. Therefore, let
S6: us keep the feast not with old leaven, nor with
S6: the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened
S6: bread of sincerity and truth. So my question is, as
S6: a Gentile believer, and having only been celebrating the feast
S6: of the Lord with my husband and children for the
S6: past eight years, I wonder how this verse is overlooked
S6: and why the church in general treats those who do
S6: observe the feasts as oddities in the church.
S1: Well. I think that there's a very long tradition of
S1: anything Jewish having a negative perspective in the church. Uh,
S1: we're not we're not talking something recent. We're talking thousands,
S1: 2000 years now, very early on. By the time you
S1: get to the second century, you can see there's a hostility,
S1: a growing hostility to anything, any Jewish practice, anything that
S1: has Jewish roots in the church. Uh, by the time
S1: you you get to the fourth century, the resurrection day
S1: was changed in terms of what day? Resurrection. Previously, the
S1: church always celebrated the resurrection as part of Passover. In fact,
S1: the old word for Easter is Pascha. In Italy, in
S1: places like that pass over Constantine the Great when he
S1: called the Nicene Council the Council of Nicaea. He was there,
S1: and he called for the change of celebration of Passover
S1: to of of the of resurrection from Passover to a
S1: more of a pagan date. And he did that to, uh,
S1: remove the church from the odious company of the Jews
S1: is what the the documents say. So there was a
S1: growing antisemitism in the church and a disregard for the
S1: older brother, uh, disdain for the Jewish roots of the faith. Uh,
S1: people misunderstood that, uh, there was, you know what? What
S1: in the New Testament, there's this issue. Should Gentiles be
S1: converted to Converted to Judaism and circumcised before they could
S1: believe in Jesus. Obviously, that wasn't right. Uh, but really,
S1: the great proponents of that were more of the Gentiles
S1: who ultimately it was Gentiles who went ahead and did that,
S1: and they then pushed that. So you would think that
S1: it would have been a recognized thing, that it was
S1: not Jewish believers pushing that idea because Paul, James, they
S1: were the ones that said, no, you don't have to. Uh,
S1: but it was Gentiles who had gone through with that
S1: circumcision that were the great advocates. That's why in the
S1: book of revelation, it calls these gentiles, uh, who say
S1: they are Jews, but they are not. So, uh, and
S1: they're not because they're, they're Gentiles who have adopted this. Uh,
S1: so the point is, I think there's a long history
S1: of that. Uh, one of the things I will tell
S1: you is that there is a growing appreciation for the
S1: Jewish People. And for festivals like Passover. I can't tell
S1: you how many churches I've gone to. To explain the Passover,
S1: I think that the feast that Paul is talking about
S1: may not necessarily be Passover. He may be talking about
S1: the Lord's Supper here in. And more broadly speaking, about
S1: our walk with the Lord. The celebrate the feast. And
S1: we get rid of the the leaven of malice and wickedness.
S1: But it could be just the the Lord's Supper celebration
S1: that he was talking about there in Corinth, because they
S1: were abusing it. We know that from first Corinthians 11. Uh,
S1: and he tells them that they have to, uh, really
S1: present themselves to the Lord first and take the Lord's
S1: Supper worthily. So that may be what he's talking about.
S1: But it does seem to me that it's really important
S1: that we recognize that the Lord's Supper communion draws right
S1: out of Passover. Um, so I agree with you that
S1: there's some pushback because there are other people trying to say, hey,
S1: you need to do this. And of course, that gets everyone.
S1: No one's saying you need to do it. But if
S1: you find keeping Passover, uh, and enjoyable and meaningful and, uh,
S1: significant aspect of your walk, as long as you're not
S1: imposing it on others. Have at it. Enjoy. Okay.
S7: Yeah, yeah. Thank you.
S1: Okay.
S8: Good morning. My name is Sheila. I'm from Bismarck, North Dakota,
S8: and I have a question in regards to our conversations
S8: with those who are Holocaust survivors. Um, what can you
S8: say to a Holocaust survivor to show them that those
S8: who persecuted them weren't after the heart of Yeshua?
S1: They weren't following what the Lord would want them to do. Yeah. Well,
S1: let me just say there's a lot in that question. Uh,
S1: my dad and mom are both Holocaust survivors. Wow. My
S1: dad thought that every SS guard that he knew in
S1: concentration camp, every German that he met was, you know,
S1: after the war, uh, was a Christian. And so he
S1: equated Nazism and murder. They actually the Nazis actually murdered
S1: his first wife, five children, his parents, his siblings, uh,
S1: his grandparents.
S7: Horrific.
S1: Uh, and that was done in his mind by followers
S1: of Jesus.
S3: Mhm.
S1: Uh, so it's very hard to break that view. And
S1: rightly so, because, uh, the Nazis, who were certainly not Christian.
S7: Right.
S1: Uh, they were not reflecting the heart of Yeshua at all. Uh,
S1: but they used the history of German anti-Semitism in the church,
S1: going back to Martin Luther and even earlier, the whole
S1: history of, of of Christian anti-Semitism. And they preyed upon
S1: that and basically said, look, we're just agreeing with what
S1: the church has always said. And so in this way, though,
S1: they I think they would have gone after the church
S1: ultimately had they not failed. If you look at Alfred Rosenberg,
S1: who was the chief theoretician, theoretician of Nazism, it was anti-Christian.
S1: It was Anti-church. They wanted to remake the church, take
S1: the Bible out, put the put Mein Kampf in, take
S1: out the hymns, put in Nazi songs. Uh, they wanted
S1: to celebrate their new savior, Adolf Hitler. And that's what
S1: they wanted the church to do. It was going to
S1: be terrible. They were going to destroy the church, which
S1: is why Bonhoeffer, Niemöller and others stood against Nazism. However, uh,
S1: they they preyed upon the history of Christian anti-Semitism, used
S1: it as a means of gathering in Christians to participate
S1: in and support what the Nazis were doing. Uh, so
S1: how do you deal with that? I think what you
S1: have to do is expose people to the true Yeshua,
S1: not the image of Yeshua from. And it's hard to
S1: do but expose them to the true Yeshua as in
S1: the Gospels. I remember many years ago I was talking
S1: with a Jewish woman in a nursing home and she
S1: was no, no, no, she wasn't a survivor, but she
S1: was really hostile because of the history. And I, I
S1: read to her the very first verse of the New
S1: Testament in Yiddish, in the language, her first language. And
S1: I got out my Yiddish New Testament and I read
S1: her this, uh, verse where it says, this is the
S1: generations of Jesus, the Messiah, Yeshua the Messiah, the Son
S1: of David, the Son of Abraham. And, uh, she looked
S1: at me and she said, you mean he's Jewish? And
S1: that's when I got to talk with her. He's not
S1: the image that you have heard about. This is the
S1: true Yeshua, uh, the king of Israel, uh, who loves
S1: his people. And that's the thing I would do, is
S1: I would get them if I could try and point
S1: them back to the true Yeshua in the New Testament. Okay.
S8: Thank you very much.
S7: Mhm.
S9: My name is Nancy from Bonita Springs, Florida. In John 20,
S9: verse seven. What is the significance of the napkin that
S9: was wrapped together in a place by itself?
S1: Okay. You've heard about this, huh? On the internet or someplace? Sermons.
S1: Have you.
S9: Heard? Once.
S1: Once.
S9: And I want to hear it from you.
S7: Okay.
S1: Well, what's been flying around the internet for a number
S1: of years Is this idea that it says that in
S1: in Jewish culture, if you fold your napkin and you're eating,
S1: you fold a napkin, and then it means you're done eating.
S1: But if you don't fold it, if it's all messed up,
S1: I'm sorry. When you fold it, you're done and you're
S1: coming back. Uh, and so that was the significance of
S1: the folded napkin. That is one of the most ludicrous
S1: things I have ever heard. Because we're not talking about
S1: a meal here. It's a face cloth for a dead body.
S1: It's not the King James uses the word napkin. My version,
S1: which is a modern version, says the wrapping that had
S1: been on his head was not lying with the linen cloths,
S1: but folded up in a separate place. It has nothing
S1: to do with food. There is no Jewish cultural background
S1: as such, that says that the folded napkin means that
S1: you want more or don't want more, or that you're
S1: coming back or whatever it is that they said it is. No, no, no, no.
S1: It is unrelated. And unfortunately, the internet can promote good things,
S1: but it also promotes lots of stupid ideas. And the
S1: thing is, don't trust it. Check it out. Uh, the
S1: significance of that linen napkin is that there were no
S1: grave robbers. Grave robbers? Robbers. If you go in and
S1: someone has stolen the body, you're not going to find
S1: the face cloth folded up neatly. Right?
S7: Right.
S1: You'll find everything jumbled aside. I had my house broken
S1: in two, uh, a few years ago when I was
S1: in Israel. I came in, the drawers were open, clothing
S1: was all out on the floors. It was. It's all
S1: jumbled up because they're looking right. If you have a
S1: grave robber. Come in. What are they doing? They're pulling everything.
S1: They're taking the body out. Uh, it wouldn't be folded up,
S1: so it's saying something different happened. This wasn't grave robbers.
S1: And then, of course, they see the Lord Jesus. They
S1: know he's resurrected.
S9: So great. Thank you so.
S7: Much.
S1: That's the significance. So, everyone, just let me just assure
S1: you there's a lot of junk on the internet. And
S1: I have to say, I'm not going to give you
S1: other examples of it, but unfortunately, sometimes people will let
S1: that get into their Bible studies or sermons, and then
S1: it gets into a, you know, to the people. So
S1: just let's be cautious when we use alleged Jewish backgrounds.
S1: I always say, where did you get that background? Sometimes
S1: they'll even I heard one preacher use a background about
S1: Jewish people, uh, giving their kids candy or sweets as
S1: they learned the alphabet, the Hebrew alphabet, as they learned
S1: how to read. Because you're supposed to learn that learning
S1: the Torah is sweet. Yeah, that's a great Jewish background
S1: from the 17th century. Has nothing to do with the
S1: New Testament or how Yeshua was raised. We're going to
S1: come back with more of your excellent questions. Stay right there.
S1: You're listening to Open Line with Michael Ellman. We're so
S1: glad that Febc partners with Open Line with Doctor Michael
S1: Ray Melnick, bringing the Febc mailbag every week. Learn how
S1: Far East Broadcasting Company is taking Christ to the world
S1: at febc. Org on their weekly podcast. Until all I've
S1: heard with Ed Cannon, you'll hear stories of lives changed
S1: by Messiah all across the globe. Again, you can hear
S1: the podcast when you visit febc. That's febc. Welcome back
S1: to Open Line. My name is Michael Melnick. Today's program
S1: is prerecorded, so don't call us today, but you can
S1: learn more about us by going to our website. Openlibrary.org
S1: has all the links you're looking for right there. But
S1: sit back now and enjoy a program that we did
S1: in front of a live audience in May of 2023.
S1: We traveled to Wooddale Church in Eden Prairie, Minnesota. That's
S1: a suburb of Minneapolis, and we were part of a
S1: Chosen People Ministries conference. Now, Wooddale church has a long
S1: and rich history of partnering with lots of Jewish ministry,
S1: of having a really deep concern for reaching Jewish people
S1: with the good news. And they happen to partner with
S1: Chosen People Ministries to put on this conference. And I'm
S1: really grateful for partnerships like this. I recognize that they
S1: are vital to open line and we to have partners.
S1: We have kitchen table partners, people who commit to give
S1: monthly so I can be on the air weekly, answering,
S1: answering people's questions about the Bible, about God, and about
S1: the spiritual life. I'm so grateful for everyone that listens
S1: and everyone that gives a gift occasionally. But I'm especially
S1: grateful for Kitchen table partners because they're the ones that
S1: really help us the most. And one way I say
S1: thank you is every other week, I send an audio
S1: Bible study to people who become kitchen table partners. It's
S1: just a few minutes and you get it in your email.
S1: You click on it and get to listen. If you'd
S1: like to become a kitchen table partner, just call 888647122.
S1: That's (888) 644-7122. Or you can just go online to Open
S1: Line Radio and whatever you do. We're really grateful for
S1: all that you do. Whenever we broadcast from a church,
S1: I like to talk with the pastor who partners with us.
S1: The senior pastor of Wooddale Church at that time was
S1: pastor Dale Hummel, who has since retired. And I talked
S1: with him about his church ministry. And then I asked
S1: him about the reason for this partnership. I just have
S1: to ask you, why would you host a conference with
S1: Chosen People Ministries? I mean, what is it that I mean,
S1: that's not typical for most churches.
S7: Yeah.
S10: Part, you know, part of it's kind of a personal
S10: for me, Michael. My my dad, who I just actually buried.
S10: April 10th. He passed away.
S7: Oh. I'm sorry.
S10: Um, and he grew up in the Netherlands. And he.
S10: During the war, he was a boy, and, uh, his
S10: family hid Jews. Mhm. Um, and my dad has clear
S10: memory of being taken outside by the Nazis. He, his
S10: mom and dad, and then his four siblings and being
S10: lined up while they searched the home. Fortunately, in the
S10: two times that that happened, there were no Jews being
S10: hidden in the home. And so dad would tell me
S10: that story over and over again, especially as he got older, uh,
S10: kind of remembering those things. And that always resonated with
S10: my heart and, you know, wondering why that happened. Um,
S10: he had, uh, two uncles. There were brothers. And, uh,
S10: one of them, uh, was killed by the SS. He
S10: was an underground spy, and he was very close to
S10: my dad. My dad was close to him. And, uh,
S10: that was a painful memory for my dad. What's interesting
S10: is that the same man, his brother, uh, went the
S10: opposite direction and, uh, went in with the Nazis.
S7: Wow.
S10: And, uh, so I always thought that would be a
S10: great historical novel. How? You have two brothers, you know,
S10: one who works on the resistance and the other, uh,
S10: you know, was pro-Nazi. And, um, so that resonated a
S10: lot with me. And then when I went to seminary, actually,
S10: I had a professor who wrote a book called Legacy
S10: of Hatred by Christian David Rouse. Yes. David Rouse.
S1: Why Christians need published by Moody. Yep.
S10: Why Christians need to remember the Holocaust. And that book, uh,
S10: deeply affected me. And I thought to myself, you know,
S10: given my history for my family and what I learned
S10: in that course, uh, it's something we have to keep
S10: in front of us. And, um, you know, I look
S10: at the Jewish people and I think, you know, they
S10: brought us the Messiah. God used them to bring the Messiah.
S10: They preserved the word of God. And, um, they're like family, right?
S10: And so what can I do, uh, to minister back
S10: and to encourage and to bring the hope of the
S10: gospel to them. So, um, and some people have just
S10: been a great avenue for us to begin to partner
S10: with and, and make sure that that is a balance
S10: for our ministry.
S1: You know, that's the history of this church, at least
S1: in my experience. I when I became a professor at
S1: Moody back in the Dark ages, uh, actually, it wasn't
S1: that long ago. It was Lincoln was president then. But anyway,
S1: when I became a actually when I became a A professor.
S1: Leith Anderson was the pastor here, and he contacted me
S1: about maybe if I could recommend someone that had some
S1: experience in Jewish ministry and knowledge because the church was
S1: hoping to actually maybe put someone on staff. And so, yeah,
S1: I just I thought that was a remarkable thing for
S1: a church. That was a rare experience that I have had,
S1: that a church would even consider using a staff position.
S10: Yeah. To reach you has always been very kingdom oriented. And, um,
S10: you know, sometimes those, those dreams get laid out and
S10: then later on they come to fruition. And so I
S10: feel like that's beginning to happen now for us.
S1: That's wonderful. I'm really, really, really grateful for it. Now,
S1: what kind of community is it? Are there many Jewish
S1: people here in Eden Prairie?
S10: Uh, not a lot more in Saint Louis Park, but
S10: within our congregation we have we have several folks, um,
S10: who have come to faith, you know, in times past
S10: and have kind of, I think, surfaced the whole conviction of, okay,
S10: what are we going to do for the Jewish community
S10: around us and I, I met I remember a couple
S10: of years ago, I went to Mayo for a physical,
S10: and my physician happened to be a Jewish doctor, and
S10: we got into quite an interesting conversation as he wanted
S10: to know why I was a pastor and what I
S10: actually believed, and I wasn't sure it was going really well,
S10: except at the very end he walked into the waiting
S10: room and he said, could you come back here for
S10: a moment? So I went back there. He took me
S10: into his office and and he just began to share
S10: his heart about his family and his ministry. And what
S10: opened the door was really me telling him the story
S10: of my dad. What happened in Holland. But then. But
S10: then hearing from me that, you know, I wanted to
S10: learn as much from him as to share with him.
S10: And so that that began kind of a unique conversation.
S1: That's so great, by the way, all evangelism. The very
S1: first step is not learning what to say, right, but
S1: how to listen. Yeah, yeah, I think that's so, so valuable. Uh,
S1: that's that's just fantastic. I truly, truly appreciate your heart
S1: for Jewish people. Thanks. I have some interesting, uh, what's
S1: interesting to me about Holland. Yeah. Uh, or the Netherlands.
S1: The most, uh, in western and Central Europe. The most
S1: Jewish people who perished in the Holocaust were from Holland.
S10: Oh, wow.
S1: Uh, the highest percentage of the Jewish community of any
S1: country were from Holland. And I think, unfortunately, that happened sadly, horribly.
S1: But most believers think that all the Dutch were looking
S1: to protect Jewish people. Right. Uh, because of the story
S1: of Corrie ten boom.
S10: Right. But not.
S1: The case. Your. Your dad's family? Yeah. Uh, they they
S1: were unique.
S10: Yeah.
S1: Uh, they they were not normative. Right. And most of
S1: the Dutch did not, uh, act like Corrie Ten boom
S1: or your family. And and so I'm especially grateful, you know,
S1: to stand against the tide. Right. It's such a special trait.
S1: I think it's a great reminder about when when it
S1: comes to doing what is right, no matter how the
S1: culture is going, no matter how much pressure there is standing.
S1: Protecting the innocent, caring for those who are being oppressed,
S1: that that's just a tremendous heritage you have.
S10: Yeah. Thanks.
S1: Yeah, I think it's it's it's even more remarkable when
S1: we realize everyone in Holland was not doing that. Right.
S10: That's. Yeah. And that's a really good point you brought out. Yeah.
S1: It's a really exceptional family. That's great. And I'm sorry
S1: about the. Was it your uncle? Great uncle that, uh,
S1: that joined with the Nazis. Is that was.
S10: Yeah. You know, he ended up, um, afterwards. It's interesting story.
S10: He ended up, um, because because it was just the
S10: two boys and one had been killed by the SS. Um,
S10: instead of hanging him, they gave him a prison term.
S10: And what's really interesting, Michael, is, is that years later,
S10: he was released from prison and he had repented for
S10: what he had he had done, and he spent the
S10: rest of his life taking care of a paraplegic. Wow.
S10: And he saw that as kind of his, uh, way
S10: of giving something back for what he had done. So
S10: there was some restitution at the end. Yeah.
S1: That's great that he repented. I think that's amazing. Yeah. Uh,
S1: my mom, uh, who survived the Holocaust, people would say
S1: to her, uh, how is it that you don't she
S1: was not bitter. Right. And, uh, she became a follower
S1: of Yeshua, and she forgave. People would say to, how
S1: did you forgive? And she'd say, they're never going to
S1: have to stand before me.
S10: Yeah.
S1: And it's.
S10: True.
S1: She she recognized they needed their repentance. Had to come
S1: before God. Yeah. And so, anyway, thank you so much.
S10: Thank you.
S1: Thank you for sponsoring this conference.
S10: Yeah. We love chosen people. And, uh.
S1: And you love Moody Radio.
S10: Absolutely. I hope more churches will get involved.
S3: Great. Thank you. We're going to take a break here.
S3: Thank you so much, pastor Dale.
S1: That's Dale Hummel from Wooddale Church in Eden Prairie, right
S1: outside of Side of Minneapolis. That's it. We're going to
S1: come right back with more of your questions in just
S1: a moment. You're listening to Open Line. Don't go away.
S1: If you've always wanted to see Israel but haven't been
S1: able to travel there, or maybe you were there and
S1: you'd like to remember better. Chosen People Ministries is offering
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S1: and you'll receive your copy of Israel, the land and
S1: the people. Welcome back to Open Line. I'm Michael Ray.
S1: Our phone lines are not open today. This is a
S1: rebroadcast today, so don't call. Appreciate you listening, but don't
S1: call today. You can relisten to this program and others.
S1: Just go to our website openlibrary.org. That's openlibrary.org. And there's
S1: all sorts of resources there. And you can ask your
S1: Bible questions at that website by clicking on Ask Michael
S1: a question. I hope you're enjoying this program. It first
S1: aired in 2023 with a live audience. The people there
S1: were at a Chosen People Ministries conference called Finding Shalom
S1: Peace in a Troubled World in Eden Prairie, Minnesota. Let's
S1: go back to that conference.
S9: Hi, I'm Mary Jane from Austin, Minnesota.
S1: Would you? Oh, I love that. Austin, Minnesota.
S9: Yeah. Um, well, will you talk about replacement theology and
S9: just how far back in history does that ideology or
S9: doctrine go?
S1: Okay. The very first person to articulate, uh, replacement theology,
S1: that God has rejected the Jewish people because of their
S1: rejection of Jesus and replaced Israel with the church, was
S1: Justin Martyr, early second century. However, there seemed to be
S1: an incipient replacement theology that in Rome that Paul is
S1: dealing with people who say, well, where can you find
S1: replacement theology in the New Testament? You can find it
S1: in Romans nine through 11, because Paul is rebuking it. Right.
S1: And the key verse to understand that is Romans 1128
S1: and 29. Nine. And that, uh, passage, uh, Paul says this.
S1: You hear the pages turning, uh, it says I'm looking
S1: at acts. No wonder why I can't find it. I
S1: got to learn these books of the Bible. Uh. Okay.
S1: Romans 1128 and 29. What Paul says about the Jewish
S1: people is that they are enemies of the gospel, not
S1: enemies of God, but enemies of the good news. They're
S1: opposed to the good news. And so he's obviously talking
S1: about Jewish people who don't believe regarding the gospel. They
S1: are enemies, but it's for your advantage. It's for the
S1: advantage of Gentiles. That's why the gospel has gone out
S1: to the Gentiles. But then he says regarding election, that
S1: means chosenness regarding election, they are loved because of the patriarchs.
S1: God made promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. His love
S1: is unconditional. He will always love the Jewish people. He
S1: doesn't say he'll love them again. No, they are loved
S1: even in their status as being people who don't believe.
S1: Since God's gracious gifts are and calling are irrevocable, all
S1: the gifts that are described in Romans nine four are still.
S1: Still belong to the Jewish people. Never been replaced. So
S1: there you go.
S11: Thank you.
S12: Hi, I'm Laurie and I live in Minnetonka, Minnesota, and
S12: I just want to welcome you here. Thank you for coming. Um,
S12: my original question had to do with a Jewish neighbor
S12: that was reaching out to me, and we've started to dialogue,
S12: but I think you've already addressed my question there. So,
S12: if I may, I'm going to pose a question about
S12: the remnant. Um, will that be a part of the
S12: will Jews and Gentiles be a part of the remnant?
S12: And does that does that have any tie in to
S12: the predestination?
S1: Okay. Well, the remnant today is As Jewish people who
S1: believe in Jesus. If you look at Romans 11 one
S1: through five, uh, he says, as God rejected his people
S1: whom he foreknew. Absolutely not. May it never be. No
S1: no no no no. And then he says, look, God
S1: is always the proof that God has not rejected the
S1: Jewish people is he has preserved a remnant. He says, look,
S1: God has always worked through a remnant. There was a
S1: remnant in the days of Elijah who were faithful, 7000
S1: who did not bow the knee to Baal. Uh, and
S1: he says in verse five, in the same way, then
S1: there is also, at the present time right now, a
S1: remnant chosen by grace. And so there is a remnant
S1: of Jewish people today who believe in Jesus. And that's
S1: the proof that we're sort of like the down payment.
S1: And one day later on in the chapter, he talks
S1: about the day when the rest of the nation will
S1: believe all Israel will be saved, and not all Israel
S1: of all of all time, but all those alive who
S1: trust in the Lord at his return. So the remnant,
S1: I believe when we talk about the remnant, it's the
S1: remnant of Jewish people who are the faithful remnant of Israel.
S1: That's in the end, believe.
S12: Thank you. And does that have any tie in to predestination?
S1: Well, obviously they're chosen by grace.
S12: Chosen.
S1: The election.
S12: Mhm.
S1: So twice chosen. Chosen as the Jewish people and then
S1: chosen by grace to believe. I think that's that's really clear. Uh,
S1: people say, well, how can God choose who's going to
S1: believe and still call on people to be responsible to believe?
S1: That's that's above my pay grade. God alone knows the
S1: answer to that question. I believe that mystery is true,
S1: but it's a mystery I don't. And you know what?
S1: Any theologian that can explain it, they're a lot smarter
S1: than I am, so I trust them.
S12: So thank you.
S11: Mhm.
S13: Hi I'm Carl Johnson from Saint Louis Park, Minnesota. And
S13: this is a little bit different kind of question. But
S13: with this being the 75th anniversary of the discovery of
S13: the Dead Sea Scrolls. What impact would you say as
S13: a Bible scholar, the scrolls have had on our understanding
S13: of the scriptures and also Second Temple Judaism?
S1: I think one of the things that the Dead Sea
S1: Scrolls has done is confirmed for Second Temple Judaism, that
S1: it was, uh, it was not uniform, it was, uh,
S1: it was Judaism's, uh, that it was that there were
S1: different kinds of Judaism we know. Sadducean Pharisaic, uh, there
S1: was monastic Judaism out in the wilderness, the Qumran community
S1: as seen Judaism, uh, and they all had their favorite
S1: version of the Bible, of which, uh, the Dead Sea
S1: Scrolls reflect all the different versions. We have different copies,
S1: different versions reflected or families of texts, but the main
S1: text is what we call the proto-masoretic, or what later
S1: becomes the The Masoretic Text. So what? The first thing
S1: that it has done for us, it has helped us
S1: with textual criticism. We can look at the variant readings
S1: and see how how the texts developed and the different families,
S1: and decide which was the best earliest texts of the
S1: Hebrew Bible, so that we it helps with like for example,
S1: in Isaiah 53 where it says, he shall see and
S1: be glad in, I think verse 12, uh, in the
S1: Dead Sea Scroll, it says, he shall see the light
S1: of life and be glad. And so it has an
S1: implication for the resurrection. And I think most versions will
S1: take that as the original text on the second, uh, score. Uh,
S1: it has shown we have the full scroll of Isaiah
S1: from the Dead Sea Scrolls. It's 99.9% the same as
S1: the next earliest text that we have 1200 years later.
S1: So it's confirmed the accuracy of the transmission of the
S1: of the text.
S13: Great. Thank you.
S1: Okay. One minute. Go ahead.
S11: Hi.
S14: My name is Sam Samuel from Ramsey, Minnesota. My question
S14: is a short one. Uh, the, uh, revelation 14.
S11: Mhm.
S14: The 144,000 that were redeemed from the earth. Who are they?
S1: Uh, your neighbors, I don't know. Uh, uh, that's referring
S1: in revelation seven. It says that there are 12,000 from
S1: each tribe, uh, making 144,000 servants who are sealed and
S1: protected by God. Uh, and so there are 144,000 Jewish
S1: people in the tribulation. God knows their tribes, I don't. Uh,
S1: and he he preserves them. It doesn't say how they
S1: serve God in Revelation seven. It just doesn't say it. However,
S1: in the next paragraph, it talks about men from every tribe,
S1: people from every tribe and tongue and nation worshipping. So
S1: the implication by context is what they are doing is
S1: they are proclaiming the gospel in the tribulation so that many,
S1: many people will believe and God's going to use 144,000
S1: Jewish Billy Graham's to proclaim the gospel in the tribulation period.
S1: That's something that's good, don't you think? Thanks for your question.
S1: And that's the program for the week. We're done. Thank
S1: you so much for all your questions right here. Appreciate that.
S1: Thanks to Wooddale church. Chosen People Ministries for hosting this
S1: live audience. Grateful for today's Openline team. Tricia McMillan, Joel Swan,
S1: Courtney Young, all their expertise made this happen. Remember, keep
S1: in touch with Open Line during the week by going
S1: to our website Openline radio. Org. That page is everything
S1: you're looking for. Keep reading the Bible. We'll talk about
S1: it next week. Open line with Doctor Michael Riedel is
S1: a production of Moody Radio, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.