1 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:08,039 S1: It's that time. That's right, friend, it's time for a 2 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:12,040 S1: conversation of biblical proportions. Because they have returned those boys 3 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:13,960 S1: to the Bible. The men of the moody commentary. They 4 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:17,720 S1: put the sink in idiosyncrasy. They put the dent in identity. 5 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:20,279 S1: I'm talking about the two Michaels. They put the her 6 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:23,880 S1: in church, and they are here to answer your biblical question, 7 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:27,200 S1: your conundrum. They put the drum and conundrum, your Christian 8 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:30,560 S1: life question. Is there a passage that you are struggling with? 9 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:32,760 S1: Is there an issue in your life that you need 10 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:39,600 S1: a little help with? Come on and call us. (877) 548-3675. 11 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:42,480 S1: Our team has assembled and it includes Ryan McConaughey doing 12 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:46,000 S1: all things technical. Trish is our producer. Lisa is helping out. 13 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:48,239 S1: Josh will be answering your calls now. Here they are. 14 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:50,839 S1: One is the host of Moody Radio, Open Line and 15 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:53,720 S1: professor emeritus of Jewish studies at Moody Bible Institute, the 16 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:56,680 S1: other retired professor of Bible at Moody and former pastor 17 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:59,600 S1: of biblical research at Harvest Bible Chapel. They are co-editors 18 00:00:59,670 --> 00:01:08,750 S1: of the Moody Bible commentary. Ladies and gentlemen, the two Michaels. Yay! Yay! Gentlemen, 19 00:01:08,750 --> 00:01:11,230 S1: it's good to have you back. How are you doing, Mike? 20 00:01:11,270 --> 00:01:12,830 S1: V you first. Are you doing all right? 21 00:01:13,190 --> 00:01:16,310 S2: I'm. I'm. I'm really good for an old guy destined 22 00:01:16,350 --> 00:01:20,750 S2: to die. But I'm doing great. So which which is 23 00:01:20,750 --> 00:01:24,390 S2: true for all of us, you know, unless we get raptured. Yeah. 24 00:01:24,430 --> 00:01:26,510 S3: There you go. So I want you to know, I 25 00:01:26,510 --> 00:01:28,670 S3: worked with this man for six years on the moody 26 00:01:28,670 --> 00:01:34,310 S3: Bible commentary. And, and I have, uh, I was definitely 27 00:01:34,310 --> 00:01:37,790 S3: the more Tigger like, and he was definitely more like puddleglum. 28 00:01:38,110 --> 00:01:40,950 S2: Oh, oh, I was Eeyore for sure. 29 00:01:40,990 --> 00:01:42,230 S1: For sure, for sure. 30 00:01:42,510 --> 00:01:44,910 S2: Oh, dear. Yeah, that was me. 31 00:01:44,950 --> 00:01:46,430 S1: How are we going to do that? 32 00:01:46,470 --> 00:01:48,710 S2: What are we? Yeah. We're doomed. 33 00:01:48,950 --> 00:01:51,230 S1: There's not enough. But he was less like. 34 00:01:51,710 --> 00:01:55,830 S3: Less like Eeyore and more like Puddleglum. Always assuming the worst, 35 00:01:55,830 --> 00:01:59,350 S3: but still knowing that that it's going to turn out okay. 36 00:01:59,830 --> 00:02:02,510 S2: Yeah. Well, and it did praise Jesus for that. 37 00:02:02,910 --> 00:02:06,990 S1: Yeah. Well, there's one it was not Puddleglum or Eeyore. 38 00:02:07,030 --> 00:02:10,030 S1: About a month ago, because you two brought along Eva 39 00:02:10,030 --> 00:02:13,670 S1: and Sue and we did 99 years of marriage. Have 40 00:02:13,669 --> 00:02:17,990 S1: you both had you both have had the anniversaries now. Mhm. 41 00:02:18,470 --> 00:02:19,790 S2: Right, right. Yep. 42 00:02:20,110 --> 00:02:23,630 S1: So, um, that was I got so much response from 43 00:02:23,630 --> 00:02:26,510 S1: people saying you've, you got to have even sue on 44 00:02:26,510 --> 00:02:28,470 S1: more often. That was so much fun. 45 00:02:28,510 --> 00:02:29,190 S3: I agree. 46 00:02:29,550 --> 00:02:32,270 S1: And it was just, it was like we were, we 47 00:02:32,270 --> 00:02:34,670 S1: weren't even doing anything on the radio. We were just 48 00:02:35,070 --> 00:02:37,430 S1: talking with each other and sharing. Right. 49 00:02:37,750 --> 00:02:39,549 S3: Yeah. I think you should have the two wives on. 50 00:02:39,550 --> 00:02:41,389 S3: That's what you should have. Not the two Michaels. 51 00:02:41,389 --> 00:02:45,830 S2: Yeah. Yeah. That was that was one of the more fun. Chris. 52 00:02:45,870 --> 00:02:48,390 S2: Favorites that I've done with you. I mean, I've enjoyed 53 00:02:48,389 --> 00:02:51,310 S2: them all, but that was really something else. That was wonderful. 54 00:02:51,470 --> 00:02:54,030 S3: Yeah, it was fun. You had a great time. I 55 00:02:54,070 --> 00:02:57,300 S3: got actually feedback. People writing to me saying heard that, 56 00:02:57,740 --> 00:03:04,380 S3: loved it and people loved. Hearing our wives. I think 57 00:03:04,380 --> 00:03:06,340 S3: that's especially true. 58 00:03:06,660 --> 00:03:07,299 S2: Yeah. 59 00:03:07,940 --> 00:03:11,420 S1: I want to play something for you because this has been. 60 00:03:12,180 --> 00:03:14,700 S1: As soon as the caller said this, I thought I 61 00:03:14,740 --> 00:03:16,500 S1: got to ask the two Michaels about this. I don't 62 00:03:16,500 --> 00:03:20,180 S1: want to argue with her here. Mhm. And we had 63 00:03:20,180 --> 00:03:23,100 S1: Laura story on on Tuesday. She's written a book about 64 00:03:23,100 --> 00:03:26,580 S1: reverence and awe and how we've kind of lost that 65 00:03:26,900 --> 00:03:29,660 S1: in the church these days and why and what to 66 00:03:29,660 --> 00:03:33,899 S1: do about it. But we had a caller, Kim, who 67 00:03:33,900 --> 00:03:36,900 S1: called in with a great comment that I want to 68 00:03:36,900 --> 00:03:39,180 S1: play for you and ask you a question. Here's what 69 00:03:39,180 --> 00:03:40,100 S1: Kim had to say. 70 00:03:40,460 --> 00:03:44,100 S4: I would say that as I hear the words, that 71 00:03:44,100 --> 00:03:48,060 S4: we should be more reverent and we should be in 72 00:03:48,060 --> 00:03:54,340 S4: awe that God doesn't need our reverence, but he knows 73 00:03:54,340 --> 00:03:58,300 S4: that we need a reverence for him in an awe 74 00:03:58,900 --> 00:04:05,380 S4: that we need a proper fear because it's that proper 75 00:04:05,700 --> 00:04:11,060 S4: worship of God that will continue to deepen and open 76 00:04:11,100 --> 00:04:16,900 S4: our eyes to not only our sin in light of 77 00:04:16,900 --> 00:04:21,460 S4: his holiness, but his grace. And it's not until we 78 00:04:21,460 --> 00:04:26,100 S4: understand our sin that we can appreciate his grace and 79 00:04:26,100 --> 00:04:31,100 S4: his mercy, right? And so the awe and reverence, yes, 80 00:04:31,100 --> 00:04:35,580 S4: we should, but the should is really because he loves 81 00:04:35,580 --> 00:04:38,260 S4: us so much that he knows what's best for us. 82 00:04:38,740 --> 00:04:41,539 S1: Okay, so when she said that, and I don't disagree 83 00:04:41,540 --> 00:04:45,980 S1: with what she just said, but as she's saying that 84 00:04:45,980 --> 00:04:49,700 S1: something was running through my soul and it was Psalm 85 00:04:49,740 --> 00:04:54,020 S1: 50 and the devotion that I have. And I won't 86 00:04:54,020 --> 00:04:57,409 S1: say the author here because I don't want to mischaracterize him. 87 00:04:57,650 --> 00:05:01,770 S1: But there is a sentence here that says we can 88 00:05:01,770 --> 00:05:09,450 S1: never benefit God. He only benefits us and I. And 89 00:05:09,450 --> 00:05:12,210 S1: as she was saying that, I thought, well, so. So 90 00:05:12,570 --> 00:05:16,450 S1: worship of God, reverence of God or of God is 91 00:05:16,450 --> 00:05:21,409 S1: not for him. It's for us to be in right 92 00:05:21,450 --> 00:05:24,890 S1: relationship so that we can be who who he wants 93 00:05:24,890 --> 00:05:27,570 S1: us to be. So I want you two to answer, 94 00:05:27,970 --> 00:05:31,330 S1: is that right? Or is there something that I'm missing here? 95 00:05:31,570 --> 00:05:33,770 S1: Should I not be struggling with this at all? 96 00:05:34,210 --> 00:05:39,369 S3: So it seems to me there's a doctrine that, uh, theologians, 97 00:05:39,370 --> 00:05:44,250 S3: not me, use. It's divine aseity they talk about that. 98 00:05:44,290 --> 00:05:50,930 S3: It means self-sufficiency, that God is utterly, completely, ultimately self-sufficient. 99 00:05:51,170 --> 00:05:55,850 S3: He doesn't need anything. He certainly doesn't need us at all, 100 00:05:55,850 --> 00:06:00,250 S3: let alone our fear or reverence. Uh, when when people 101 00:06:00,250 --> 00:06:04,570 S3: ask me, you know, don't you think God is, uh, 102 00:06:05,930 --> 00:06:10,570 S3: an egomaniac, that he demands that people worship him alone? No. 103 00:06:10,570 --> 00:06:14,410 S3: He doesn't need us to worship him alone. It's not 104 00:06:14,410 --> 00:06:21,409 S3: because of his, uh, conceit. It's because what is best 105 00:06:21,410 --> 00:06:24,130 S3: for us is to worship the God of the universe, 106 00:06:24,130 --> 00:06:28,729 S3: the creator, uh, and him alone. So I wonder where 107 00:06:28,730 --> 00:06:30,729 S3: Mike stands on that, but I think he agrees. 108 00:06:32,010 --> 00:06:35,609 S2: Uh, you're absolutely right. I mean, God doesn't need anything. 109 00:06:35,730 --> 00:06:41,210 S2: But having said that, his his, I think probably and 110 00:06:41,210 --> 00:06:44,250 S2: reformed theologians will maintain this, that God's ultimate purpose is 111 00:06:44,250 --> 00:06:48,130 S2: to bring glory to himself. And part of and part 112 00:06:48,130 --> 00:06:52,400 S2: of what we do contributes to that program of God. Okay, 113 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:54,280 S2: so it's not like God needs it, like we need 114 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,480 S2: water or something like that. But this is something that 115 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:02,839 S2: God has ordained that we would be involved in. And so, um, 116 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:06,840 S2: God's not a megalomaniac. He, he, it's because he is 117 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:10,920 S2: so supremely good. It would be wrong to withhold himself 118 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:15,960 S2: from the universe and from our awareness and, um, and 119 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:18,720 S2: thus rob us of the opportunity to give him glory 120 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:21,840 S2: and to enjoy his nature. And so I agree with 121 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,160 S2: what Kim said. You know, God doesn't need it. And 122 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:26,360 S2: it is for us and it does benefit us. But 123 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:28,880 S2: there is another side to it, and that is that his, 124 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:35,680 S2: his program, uh, does include us, uh, participating in expressing 125 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:37,120 S2: his glory to the world. 126 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:37,640 S1: Okay. 127 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:40,320 S3: In a sense, he doesn't need us, but he uses us. 128 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:44,600 S1: Yes. And he gives us the opportunity to participate with 129 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:48,880 S1: him and, and through the Spirit's work inside of us. 130 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:51,320 S1: I think that's what I was missing because I wrote 131 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:54,280 S1: down on the side of Psalm 50, if he wants 132 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:58,680 S1: our hearts, why? Why does he want our thanksgiving? Isn't 133 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:03,480 S1: there something that he receives when we do that? And 134 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:06,640 S1: maybe I that's because I'm thinking of God more as 135 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:09,800 S1: transactional like I am, you know, making him like me 136 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:13,480 S1: rather than as he is. You were saying, Michael, but 137 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:16,360 S1: there is I think there is something that we do 138 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:20,960 S1: bring to him other than our sin and our need 139 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:24,200 S1: and our bereft. We have no, there's no, there's no 140 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:27,120 S1: standing in front of him, but simply falling on our 141 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:31,280 S1: face in front of him in abject awe and reverence 142 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:36,440 S1: is also an offering as well. And I don't maybe this. 143 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:39,679 S1: We're talking about the hypostatic union. We can't understand it 144 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:41,880 S1: like V. Do you see what I'm saying? 145 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,280 S2: Right. You know, God, as we already said, I mean, 146 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:51,310 S2: God doesn't need us to do anything. And yet, um, it's, we, 147 00:08:51,309 --> 00:08:54,589 S2: we do contribute to the manifestation and the expansion of 148 00:08:54,590 --> 00:08:56,870 S2: the knowledge of his glory in the universe as we 149 00:08:56,870 --> 00:08:59,270 S2: praise him and as we, as we do good deeds. 150 00:08:59,309 --> 00:09:02,949 S2: You know, he gets exposed, he gets seen. And so, um, 151 00:09:02,950 --> 00:09:05,990 S2: there's a sense in which we, we do sort of 152 00:09:06,030 --> 00:09:09,150 S2: contribute to this on his behalf. Yes. 153 00:09:09,309 --> 00:09:12,270 S1: And I guess that's where I is like, do when 154 00:09:12,270 --> 00:09:15,110 S1: I was a kid, my brothers would let me play baseball. 155 00:09:15,110 --> 00:09:18,630 S1: And when I'd get up to hit the kids in 156 00:09:18,630 --> 00:09:21,990 S1: the neighborhood who were playing the field would yell, his 157 00:09:22,030 --> 00:09:26,430 S1: outs don't count, because I could. I couldn't play very much. 158 00:09:26,429 --> 00:09:29,550 S1: I could run very fast. You know, his outs don't count. 159 00:09:29,550 --> 00:09:31,950 S1: And I feel that way with God sometimes. My my 160 00:09:31,990 --> 00:09:35,190 S1: my my effort doesn't really count, does it count? So 161 00:09:35,190 --> 00:09:39,110 S1: when I hear, you know, God doesn't need anything, it's like, well, 162 00:09:39,150 --> 00:09:42,390 S1: I don't really matter. I don't really have a purpose here. 163 00:09:42,830 --> 00:09:45,589 S1: And I don't think that's what he's saying in this. 164 00:09:45,590 --> 00:09:49,270 S1: But our total, our total need is for Him and 165 00:09:49,270 --> 00:09:51,910 S1: His grace and his mercy, right? 166 00:09:53,670 --> 00:09:57,990 S2: Yes. I mean, it's an amazing thing that God, that 167 00:09:57,990 --> 00:10:00,590 S2: God has given us the grace not only to save us, 168 00:10:00,590 --> 00:10:03,550 S2: but Paul says in first Corinthians 15 that God's grace 169 00:10:03,550 --> 00:10:06,429 S2: was at work in Paul to do the amazing things. 170 00:10:06,870 --> 00:10:09,190 S2: It's not only God's kindness that saves us, but it's 171 00:10:09,190 --> 00:10:15,110 S2: God's kindness that also, um, enlists us and utilizes us in, 172 00:10:15,150 --> 00:10:18,429 S2: in fulfilling his program and bringing him glory. I mean, 173 00:10:18,429 --> 00:10:20,350 S2: there is a mystery there. God doesn't need us, but 174 00:10:20,390 --> 00:10:22,709 S2: yet he's ordained that this would be the way it is. 175 00:10:22,750 --> 00:10:25,230 S2: And so, um, it is good and right that we 176 00:10:25,230 --> 00:10:28,350 S2: participate in these things. And he does receive glory that 177 00:10:28,350 --> 00:10:31,829 S2: he probably wouldn't receive in the world unless we bragged 178 00:10:31,830 --> 00:10:33,030 S2: him up in the. 179 00:10:33,030 --> 00:10:34,989 S1: World and participated. 180 00:10:35,030 --> 00:10:37,069 S3: But he doesn't need us to brag him up. That's 181 00:10:37,070 --> 00:10:40,110 S3: just the thing. He doesn't need it. It's, uh, you 182 00:10:40,110 --> 00:10:43,470 S3: and I. We need we need references, right. You know, 183 00:10:43,510 --> 00:10:45,829 S3: if we're looking for a job or whatever, we get 184 00:10:45,940 --> 00:10:48,420 S3: references to talk about how wonderful you are, right? And 185 00:10:48,420 --> 00:10:52,220 S3: how wonderful. But God doesn't need it. Uh, it's. And 186 00:10:52,220 --> 00:10:55,060 S3: in fact, even when we do good works, people glorify 187 00:10:55,059 --> 00:10:57,780 S3: our father in heaven. They don't glorify us. At least 188 00:10:57,780 --> 00:10:58,740 S3: they shouldn't. Right. And so. 189 00:10:58,780 --> 00:10:59,260 S2: It's exactly. 190 00:10:59,260 --> 00:10:59,460 S1: Right. 191 00:10:59,500 --> 00:11:05,059 S3: It's it's he, he doesn't need us, but he wants us. Uh, 192 00:11:05,179 --> 00:11:08,500 S3: he doesn't need us, but he loves us. And he 193 00:11:08,500 --> 00:11:11,819 S3: allows us, by his grace, not just to be saved, 194 00:11:11,980 --> 00:11:14,620 S3: but to worship him and bring glory to him. 195 00:11:14,780 --> 00:11:17,020 S1: Right. Thank you for entertaining that. And it was a 196 00:11:17,020 --> 00:11:19,420 S1: really good program. If you didn't hear Laura's story on Tuesday, 197 00:11:19,460 --> 00:11:21,260 S1: go back and listen to that. The two Michaels are 198 00:11:21,260 --> 00:11:24,020 S1: here today, though, and if you call this number, you 199 00:11:24,020 --> 00:11:34,700 S1: might be talking with them at 87754836758775483675. Doctor Michael doctor 200 00:11:34,700 --> 00:11:38,700 S1: Michael Vanlandingham we have the moody Bible commentary linked and 201 00:11:38,700 --> 00:11:42,260 S1: other of their resources right there. Chris fabry live dot. 202 00:11:52,740 --> 00:11:54,819 S1: I have a bunch more questions for the two Michaels, 203 00:11:54,820 --> 00:11:56,819 S1: but I want to give you an opportunity right now 204 00:11:56,820 --> 00:12:02,540 S1: at (877) 548-3675. Today is the day. It might be your 205 00:12:02,540 --> 00:12:06,300 S1: chance to ask Doctor Redlich. Doctor Van Landingham a question. 206 00:12:06,500 --> 00:12:13,860 S1: Old Testament, new testament doesn't matter. Christian life question. (877) 548-3675. 207 00:12:13,860 --> 00:12:16,940 S1: We'll start with Bruce. Hey Bruce go right ahead. You're 208 00:12:16,940 --> 00:12:17,860 S1: on with the Michaels. 209 00:12:18,580 --> 00:12:22,660 S5: Oh thank you. Hi, Chris and Doctor, ideally, I would 210 00:12:22,660 --> 00:12:26,420 S5: like to ask, uh, since John wrote the Gospel of 211 00:12:26,420 --> 00:12:31,339 S5: John and the revelation to John, why did he not 212 00:12:31,340 --> 00:12:36,300 S5: mention the counselor even once in revelation when he mentioned 213 00:12:36,340 --> 00:12:38,900 S5: the counselor four times in John? 214 00:12:41,340 --> 00:12:41,939 S6: Good question. 215 00:12:41,980 --> 00:12:43,140 S2: We'll have to ask him. 216 00:12:43,410 --> 00:12:47,650 S3: Yeah, but who do you think the counselor is in 217 00:12:47,690 --> 00:12:48,810 S3: the Gospel of John? 218 00:12:49,770 --> 00:12:52,010 S5: I think it's the Holy Spirit. 219 00:12:52,170 --> 00:12:57,890 S3: Yes. And he does mention the Holy Spirit. Uh, in 220 00:12:57,929 --> 00:13:00,890 S3: the Gospel of John, it talks about in the book 221 00:13:00,890 --> 00:13:03,490 S3: of revelation. He says that John was in the spirit 222 00:13:03,490 --> 00:13:06,809 S3: on the Lord's Day, and that's referring to the Holy Spirit. 223 00:13:06,809 --> 00:13:08,570 S3: He was in the power of the Holy Spirit on 224 00:13:08,570 --> 00:13:14,730 S3: the Lord's Day. He talks about the seven spirits of God. And, uh, 225 00:13:14,730 --> 00:13:16,929 S3: a lot of people think, what, what is that? They 226 00:13:16,970 --> 00:13:20,370 S3: wonder about it. But it's actually a phrase taken from 227 00:13:20,370 --> 00:13:23,930 S3: Isaiah 11 when it talks about the Messiah being endowed 228 00:13:23,929 --> 00:13:26,610 S3: by the Holy Spirit. And it then it mentions that 229 00:13:26,610 --> 00:13:32,370 S3: he has, uh, that there are seven endowments of the spirit. 230 00:13:32,890 --> 00:13:35,930 S3: It says in Isaiah 111, The spirit of the Lord 231 00:13:35,929 --> 00:13:42,170 S3: will rest on him. The spirit of wisdom, understanding, counsel, strength, knowledge, 232 00:13:42,650 --> 00:13:45,450 S3: and fear of the Lord. Those are the seven spirits 233 00:13:45,450 --> 00:13:49,010 S3: of God, and they are mentioned in the a couple times. 234 00:13:49,010 --> 00:13:51,570 S3: I don't know exactly how many, but more than once 235 00:13:51,570 --> 00:13:55,170 S3: in the Book of Revelation. So though he may use 236 00:13:55,170 --> 00:14:00,370 S3: different term, a different term, because I think the, the Paraclete, the, 237 00:14:00,809 --> 00:14:05,370 S3: the word for the Holy Spirit in John is more 238 00:14:05,370 --> 00:14:09,290 S3: related to what he does for us. And in the 239 00:14:09,330 --> 00:14:13,770 S3: Gospel of John, it's more about his empowerment. And so 240 00:14:13,809 --> 00:14:15,689 S3: it I think he would use a different term, but 241 00:14:15,690 --> 00:14:21,530 S3: there's enough overlap with the book of revelation, uh, that 242 00:14:22,450 --> 00:14:28,050 S3: with the Gospel of John, for example, uh, the, the 243 00:14:28,050 --> 00:14:31,530 S3: number seven is very important in the book of revelation. 244 00:14:31,530 --> 00:14:35,050 S3: It's also really important in the Gospel of John, there's 245 00:14:35,050 --> 00:14:38,250 S3: seven I ams, for example, seven signs in the Gospel 246 00:14:38,250 --> 00:14:44,520 S3: of John, there are seven, uh, bowl judgments and seven, uh, 247 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:51,160 S3: seal judgments and seven trumpet judgments in the book of revelation. 248 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,560 S3: So those things come up over and over again. And 249 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,600 S3: John the Messiah is called the Lamb of God who 250 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,520 S3: takes away the sin of the world in revelation. He's 251 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:05,080 S3: the lion and the lamb. And so there's enough overlap 252 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:09,800 S3: to let us know that indeed, this is the same author, 253 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:12,520 S3: but he made a choice in how he describes the 254 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:13,400 S3: Holy Spirit. 255 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:16,800 S2: Mike V yeah, I've got nothing to add. That's a 256 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:18,360 S2: great answer, Michael. Thank you. 257 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:21,360 S1: I, uh, I went through the book of, well, all 258 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:26,520 S1: New testament and underline did yellow highlight under spirit. So 259 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:30,320 S1: I just opened a revelation. And in chapter one it 260 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:33,400 S1: says I was in the spirit on the Lord's day. 261 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:36,840 S1: Chapter two says, anyone who has an ear should listen 262 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:40,800 S1: to what the spirit says to the churches. And then 263 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,320 S1: this is not to to Bruce to make you upset 264 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,560 S1: with us or to to to straighten you out in 265 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:50,400 S1: any way. But anyone who has an ear should listen 266 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:55,120 S1: to what the spirit says to the churches again in, 267 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:58,320 S1: in chapter two. And then the same is repeated in 268 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:02,960 S1: chapter three and chapter toward the end of chapter three. 269 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:06,720 S1: Anyone who has an ear to hear it says that 270 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:10,600 S1: three times. And then in chapter four, immediately I was 271 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,760 S1: in the spirit and a throne was set there in heaven. 272 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:17,000 S1: So and I could keep on going. But, uh, Bruce, 273 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,600 S1: does that help at all with what you're talking about? 274 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:25,240 S5: I guess I was going to ask the capital C 275 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:29,120 S5: and counselor is kind of a tip off that it's 276 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:33,680 S5: talking about God, the capital C and counselor. 277 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,160 S1: In in which book are you talking about revelation. 278 00:16:38,230 --> 00:16:40,070 S5: And John and John. 279 00:16:40,110 --> 00:16:42,150 S1: Okay. In the gospel of John. Okay. 280 00:16:42,190 --> 00:16:46,430 S3: Well, that I don't know which version uses the word counselor. Uh, 281 00:16:46,910 --> 00:16:51,750 S3: but it's actually, uh, the. Michael. What? What do you 282 00:16:51,750 --> 00:16:55,150 S3: think that's the best translation for? For Paraclete? 283 00:16:55,950 --> 00:16:59,830 S2: Um, no, I think probably the better word would be, um, comforter. 284 00:17:00,230 --> 00:17:01,110 S3: That's what I think. 285 00:17:01,510 --> 00:17:05,190 S2: Yeah. Not counselor probably, but comforter. Mhm. Encourager even. 286 00:17:05,710 --> 00:17:06,150 S6: Interesting. 287 00:17:06,190 --> 00:17:07,790 S3: Yeah. It's parakletos. So. 288 00:17:07,990 --> 00:17:09,310 S6: Right. Right. Yeah. 289 00:17:09,710 --> 00:17:12,670 S1: I can tell Bruce you like to study. You come 290 00:17:12,670 --> 00:17:15,430 S1: back and see us again. Ask a question. Make a comment. 291 00:17:15,430 --> 00:17:19,510 S1: Raquel is in Florida. Raquel, what's your question for the 292 00:17:19,510 --> 00:17:20,310 S1: two Michaels? 293 00:17:21,230 --> 00:17:23,590 S7: Yes. Thank you. Um, God bless you all. And thank 294 00:17:23,590 --> 00:17:25,949 S7: you for what you're doing, especially that you're using the 295 00:17:25,950 --> 00:17:31,030 S7: Word of God to clarify and identify the information that 296 00:17:31,030 --> 00:17:33,869 S7: we're asking a few. Um, a few months ago, a 297 00:17:33,869 --> 00:17:36,390 S7: coworker just told me that she was at church and 298 00:17:36,390 --> 00:17:38,270 S7: she was speaking in English. She said, because you speak 299 00:17:38,270 --> 00:17:41,310 S7: in tongue, right? And if you don't speak in tongue 300 00:17:41,310 --> 00:17:44,429 S7: that you. You don't have the Holy Spirit. So I 301 00:17:44,430 --> 00:17:47,989 S7: just want you to, um, bring back some, some more 302 00:17:47,990 --> 00:17:51,390 S7: information in order to help me. I have my conviction 303 00:17:51,390 --> 00:17:55,190 S7: and I have no doubts that anyone that the Lord, um, 304 00:17:55,230 --> 00:18:01,710 S7: decides to, you know, that it exists, the gift of tongues. 305 00:18:01,830 --> 00:18:04,270 S7: But there are certain other things that somebody have to 306 00:18:04,270 --> 00:18:06,870 S7: interpret and many other things that you have to be 307 00:18:06,910 --> 00:18:10,230 S7: kind of in a class or continuously searching for that. 308 00:18:10,230 --> 00:18:12,830 S7: But right now, I just want you to touch the 309 00:18:12,830 --> 00:18:16,670 S7: point and reinforce with the Bible verses in case that 310 00:18:16,950 --> 00:18:20,469 S7: the situations occurred to me. Again, I have other Bible 311 00:18:20,470 --> 00:18:24,230 S7: verses to help her, of course, with, uh, with some 312 00:18:24,270 --> 00:18:27,510 S7: wisdom and, and courtesy and okay. 313 00:18:27,550 --> 00:18:31,030 S1: Let me get the mic V uh, Raquel. Great question. Mike. 314 00:18:31,510 --> 00:18:34,670 S2: There's a great question. And, and Raquel, I'm, it's really 315 00:18:34,670 --> 00:18:37,300 S2: unfortunate that The people. People say that I come out 316 00:18:37,300 --> 00:18:40,420 S2: of a charismatic background, and that was my background. And 317 00:18:41,300 --> 00:18:42,979 S2: and then I was able to learn more. And the 318 00:18:42,980 --> 00:18:44,460 S2: Lord led me out of that. And I'm very glad 319 00:18:44,460 --> 00:18:50,980 S2: for that. But in, in first Corinthians chapter, um, chapter 12, um, 320 00:18:51,020 --> 00:18:56,780 S2: verse 13, it says, for by one spirit we were 321 00:18:56,900 --> 00:18:59,940 S2: all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether 322 00:18:59,940 --> 00:19:02,180 S2: slaves or free. And we were all made to drink 323 00:19:02,180 --> 00:19:05,500 S2: of one spirit. Now there's, there's 6 or 7 times 324 00:19:05,500 --> 00:19:08,300 S2: where you have the phrase related to being baptized in 325 00:19:08,300 --> 00:19:10,939 S2: the spirit. You see it in the Gospels and in 326 00:19:10,980 --> 00:19:12,820 S2: the book of acts, I think once or twice. And 327 00:19:12,820 --> 00:19:15,780 S2: then you've got it here as well. So the idea is, 328 00:19:15,780 --> 00:19:19,220 S2: is that Jesus actually baptizes us. And that's a metaphor. 329 00:19:19,220 --> 00:19:22,860 S2: He immerses us. He puts us into the Holy Spirit. 330 00:19:23,260 --> 00:19:27,580 S2: But it says that we were. Notice the past tense. 331 00:19:27,619 --> 00:19:33,020 S2: We were baptized. We were all baptized. How many Christians? 332 00:19:33,540 --> 00:19:37,899 S2: All of them. And so, um, the baptism of the 333 00:19:37,900 --> 00:19:42,020 S2: spirit is for every believer. But then he says at 334 00:19:42,020 --> 00:19:44,500 S2: the end of the same chapter that not every believer 335 00:19:44,500 --> 00:19:49,100 S2: speaks in tongues in verse 30, chapter 12 and, and 336 00:19:49,380 --> 00:19:51,700 S2: all do not have the gifts of healings. Do they 337 00:19:51,700 --> 00:19:53,820 S2: all do not speak with tongues, do they? And that 338 00:19:53,820 --> 00:19:56,740 S2: construction expects a no answer? No, not everybody does speak 339 00:19:56,740 --> 00:20:01,620 S2: in tongues. But all Christians past tense have been baptized 340 00:20:01,619 --> 00:20:05,820 S2: by Jesus in the spirit. And so, um, every every 341 00:20:05,820 --> 00:20:08,379 S2: true believer is baptized in the spirit, but not every 342 00:20:08,380 --> 00:20:10,740 S2: true believer is going to speak in tongues. 343 00:20:13,900 --> 00:20:14,300 S3: Yeah. I just. 344 00:20:14,340 --> 00:20:14,580 S1: Wanted. 345 00:20:14,660 --> 00:20:18,220 S3: To add, that's exactly the very answer I was going 346 00:20:18,220 --> 00:20:23,419 S3: to raise. Uh, but the, the thing I want to 347 00:20:23,420 --> 00:20:26,860 S3: point out in this list here where Paul asks these questions, 348 00:20:26,859 --> 00:20:29,540 S3: are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all? 349 00:20:29,580 --> 00:20:34,130 S3: And finally, do all speak in tongues? Uh, Those are. 350 00:20:34,250 --> 00:20:41,010 S3: The Greek construction is a. I won't have to tell 351 00:20:41,010 --> 00:20:43,570 S3: you what it is, but it demands a. No answer. 352 00:20:44,210 --> 00:20:44,730 S6: Right. 353 00:20:44,810 --> 00:20:47,770 S3: Uh, so when it asks the question, do all speak 354 00:20:47,770 --> 00:20:51,490 S3: in tongues? It's rhetorical. The answer is, of course, no. 355 00:20:51,490 --> 00:20:55,370 S3: Everyone doesn't speak in tongues. And so it's really important 356 00:20:55,369 --> 00:20:58,170 S3: to understand that, yes, we all. And in fact, in 357 00:20:58,170 --> 00:20:59,850 S3: Romans eight nine, it says, if we don't have the 358 00:20:59,850 --> 00:21:02,050 S3: Spirit of Christ, we don't belong to him. If you 359 00:21:02,050 --> 00:21:04,810 S3: belong to Jesus, you have the Holy Spirit. He indwells us. 360 00:21:04,810 --> 00:21:08,689 S3: He baptizes us. And. But it doesn't say that everyone 361 00:21:08,690 --> 00:21:11,929 S3: speaks in tongues. Now, there's differences of opinions about whether 362 00:21:11,930 --> 00:21:16,850 S3: tongue tongues continue, uh, or, or not. I would just 363 00:21:16,850 --> 00:21:20,050 S3: say that if if you ask the question, what should 364 00:21:20,050 --> 00:21:22,890 S3: I believe about tongues? The most important, very foundational thing 365 00:21:22,890 --> 00:21:26,970 S3: before you even come to first Corinthians 12 is to 366 00:21:27,010 --> 00:21:31,130 S3: understand that they are real languages. They're not some sort 367 00:21:31,130 --> 00:21:38,850 S3: of heavenly language. Angels speak that that makes no sense linguistically. 368 00:21:39,050 --> 00:21:41,770 S3: It's really a language. And that's what in acts two, 369 00:21:41,810 --> 00:21:44,330 S3: where we see a description of tongues. We see the 370 00:21:44,330 --> 00:21:47,250 S3: people who were from all over the world saw the 371 00:21:47,250 --> 00:21:50,690 S3: disciples when they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. 372 00:21:50,690 --> 00:21:55,490 S3: They were speaking in tongues. And, uh, what happens? They 373 00:21:55,490 --> 00:21:58,250 S3: all heard them in their own. They heard them speaking 374 00:21:58,250 --> 00:22:01,170 S3: their languages. And so it's a real language. It's not 375 00:22:01,170 --> 00:22:05,730 S3: angels speak. And, and so that's important to know as well, 376 00:22:05,770 --> 00:22:10,129 S3: because so often people will just, uh, want to claim 377 00:22:10,130 --> 00:22:12,889 S3: gibberish and say they're speaking in tongues. 378 00:22:14,290 --> 00:22:15,410 S1: Does that help? Raquel? 379 00:22:16,170 --> 00:22:20,209 S7: Oh, the answers just reinforce my knowledge about the topic. 380 00:22:20,530 --> 00:22:22,770 S7: It's just she got me as a surprise. And then 381 00:22:22,810 --> 00:22:25,730 S7: I was a few months ago, about eight months ago. 382 00:22:25,730 --> 00:22:29,090 S7: But I still have my conviction and you just reinforce it. 383 00:22:29,090 --> 00:22:32,240 S7: And I'm I'm hoping that other people that are listeners 384 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:37,640 S7: right now, they they can understand this explanation or go 385 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,760 S7: to the first Corinthians chapter 12. Okay. 386 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:46,119 S1: So thank you. God bless you, friend. Call us again. Uh, 387 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:48,560 S1: I have to ask a follow up question, though, for you, 388 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,719 S1: Doctor Redlich. There is a baseball player that you and 389 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:56,040 S1: I both love. And he became a believer. And I 390 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,920 S1: saw a clip of him the other day saying. When 391 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:03,359 S1: I first became a Christian, I something sprung up in 392 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,879 S1: my belly and he started to speak in tongues. And 393 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,399 S1: there was this, uh, and he used some of the 394 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,280 S1: language and you could tell it wasn't a, you know, 395 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,840 S1: an actual language of that we would understand was more 396 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,280 S1: of a, of a heavenly language. He would say. Um, 397 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:22,880 S1: so what do I do with, with this person that 398 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,400 S1: I respect and love? And I can tell he's, he's 399 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,880 S1: been redeemed. He's a believer. Uh, but we disagree on 400 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:30,830 S1: that issue. What do I do with that, Michael? 401 00:23:30,869 --> 00:23:33,030 S3: I say we can agree to disagree and still love 402 00:23:33,030 --> 00:23:37,150 S3: each other and the Lord. That's one thing I would say. Uh, secondly, 403 00:23:38,550 --> 00:23:40,590 S3: I don't think I think one of the mistakes that 404 00:23:40,590 --> 00:23:45,790 S3: people who don't, who believe that tongues, who believe that 405 00:23:45,790 --> 00:23:48,790 S3: it's a real language, as I do sometimes people who 406 00:23:48,790 --> 00:23:52,189 S3: hold that view will say that if someone is speaking 407 00:23:52,190 --> 00:23:56,510 S3: in that kind of language that you heard that it's 408 00:23:56,510 --> 00:24:00,189 S3: somehow demonic. I don't believe that at all. Uh, I 409 00:24:00,270 --> 00:24:04,830 S3: think that there's something called are you ready for this 410 00:24:05,230 --> 00:24:07,550 S3: psychomotor automatism? 411 00:24:08,150 --> 00:24:08,550 S6: Mhm. 412 00:24:09,030 --> 00:24:10,270 S3: Have you ever heard of that? 413 00:24:10,710 --> 00:24:11,470 S6: I don't know that. 414 00:24:11,470 --> 00:24:13,030 S1: I never heard you say it. 415 00:24:13,030 --> 00:24:16,350 S3: Yeah. Psychomotor automatism. And what that is, is there are 416 00:24:16,350 --> 00:24:22,229 S3: times where, uh, the, the brain part of our, you know, 417 00:24:22,270 --> 00:24:28,590 S3: our cognitive separates from our speech and they've seen it 418 00:24:28,590 --> 00:24:32,950 S3: with people who have strokes who they they in their brain, 419 00:24:32,950 --> 00:24:35,390 S3: they know what they're saying, but their speech comes out 420 00:24:35,390 --> 00:24:39,750 S3: that same kind of sounding gibberish. Uh, people sometimes can 421 00:24:39,750 --> 00:24:42,469 S3: have emotional breakdowns like that or just and this is 422 00:24:42,470 --> 00:24:47,270 S3: what's really important emotional experiences. And when they're at a very, 423 00:24:47,270 --> 00:24:51,390 S3: very strong emotional experience, the brain knows what it's thinking. 424 00:24:51,590 --> 00:24:56,270 S3: But the, the, the speech comes out as sort of gibberish. 425 00:24:56,670 --> 00:25:00,070 S3: And that's sort of an emotional, uh, and it sounds 426 00:25:00,070 --> 00:25:03,190 S3: to me like someone who had just gotten saved, who 427 00:25:03,390 --> 00:25:07,390 S3: was so excited and emotional about that, that it's possible 428 00:25:07,390 --> 00:25:12,030 S3: that psychomotor automatism could have been what was happening right there. 429 00:25:12,310 --> 00:25:15,070 S1: Well, we have more questions for the Michaels. If you 430 00:25:15,109 --> 00:25:21,270 S1: call (877) 548-3675, we're going to get to your question at least. 431 00:25:21,270 --> 00:25:23,030 S1: I hope we do before the end of the program. 432 00:25:23,030 --> 00:25:28,699 S1: But call now so we can get you in 75483675. 433 00:25:28,740 --> 00:25:31,540 S1: Don't forget just a few days left in our offer 434 00:25:31,540 --> 00:25:34,900 S1: on Chris Fabry Live of Doctor John Perkins. Book one 435 00:25:34,900 --> 00:25:38,619 S1: Blood Parting Words to the Church on Race and Love. 436 00:25:38,619 --> 00:25:41,540 S1: We lost him back in March. We're doing this in 437 00:25:41,540 --> 00:25:45,020 S1: honor of him and the message of reconciliation. You can 438 00:25:45,020 --> 00:25:46,780 S1: find out how you can give a gift and receive 439 00:25:46,780 --> 00:25:51,699 S1: that book at the website. Chris fabry.org. Chris Fabry live.org. 440 00:26:04,540 --> 00:26:07,980 S1: It is one of my favorite conversations we have every month. 441 00:26:08,340 --> 00:26:10,540 S1: That's the two Michaels when they come along here, doctor 442 00:26:10,540 --> 00:26:14,820 S1: Michael Rudnick of online doctor Michael Vanlandingham, they put together 443 00:26:14,820 --> 00:26:18,260 S1: the moody Bible commentary and a number of resources you'll 444 00:26:18,260 --> 00:26:23,140 S1: see at the website. Chris Fabry live.org. Thanks for your support. 445 00:26:23,140 --> 00:26:25,700 S1: That allows us to have the Michaels on and ask 446 00:26:25,700 --> 00:26:31,460 S1: questions and get some answers for someone named Ruth in Chicago. Hi, Ruth. 447 00:26:31,500 --> 00:26:32,300 S1: Go right ahead. 448 00:26:33,020 --> 00:26:37,180 S8: Hi. Thank you so much for taking my call. My 449 00:26:37,180 --> 00:26:41,940 S8: question is thank you. My question is, when Mary and 450 00:26:41,940 --> 00:26:46,260 S8: Joseph went to be counted by for the census, why 451 00:26:46,300 --> 00:26:50,180 S8: didn't they have extended family? Why weren't their parents that 452 00:26:50,180 --> 00:26:51,700 S8: they also go on the trip? 453 00:26:52,300 --> 00:26:52,700 S6: Mhm. 454 00:26:54,900 --> 00:26:57,900 S2: Well, we don't we don't know that they didn't. Um, 455 00:26:58,700 --> 00:27:01,220 S2: just the fact that the gospel writers don't mention any 456 00:27:01,220 --> 00:27:03,860 S2: other family members doesn't mean that that there weren't other 457 00:27:03,859 --> 00:27:07,220 S2: family members that went. It was clearly the gospel writers, 458 00:27:07,260 --> 00:27:11,179 S2: you know, Matthew's and Luke's purpose to focus upon Mary 459 00:27:11,180 --> 00:27:13,740 S2: and Joseph and to have, you know, uncle Bob go 460 00:27:13,740 --> 00:27:15,899 S2: along with them. Why would he need to be mentioned? 461 00:27:15,940 --> 00:27:18,540 S2: That's not the point of the story. So it could 462 00:27:18,540 --> 00:27:20,620 S2: be that there were others that went, and more than 463 00:27:20,619 --> 00:27:23,860 S2: likely Joseph and Mary went to some sort of a 464 00:27:23,970 --> 00:27:27,730 S2: relative in Bethlehem in order to be reckoned in with 465 00:27:27,730 --> 00:27:31,090 S2: this census. And so there were probably family members there. 466 00:27:31,090 --> 00:27:33,370 S2: But again, we don't we don't know what the connection 467 00:27:33,369 --> 00:27:36,490 S2: is and what that particular relationship would be. 468 00:27:37,890 --> 00:27:40,770 S1: Did he really have an uncle Bob? Oh, I. 469 00:27:41,450 --> 00:27:43,290 S2: Know uncle Bob. Yeah. Yeah. 470 00:27:43,450 --> 00:27:44,889 S1: That's an apocryphal book there. 471 00:27:44,930 --> 00:27:45,210 S6: Okay. 472 00:27:45,250 --> 00:27:47,050 S1: Yeah. Ruth, what do you think about that? Is that 473 00:27:47,090 --> 00:27:48,690 S1: does that make sense to you? 474 00:27:48,730 --> 00:27:50,890 S8: Yeah. It does, it does. I just wonder, you know, 475 00:27:50,930 --> 00:27:53,850 S8: when wasn't her mother. When her mother have been around 476 00:27:53,850 --> 00:27:57,130 S8: when her father his mother, his father been around. It 477 00:27:57,130 --> 00:27:59,850 S8: just would have made sense if they would also there. 478 00:28:00,250 --> 00:28:02,290 S3: Well they could have you know, if they were staying 479 00:28:02,330 --> 00:28:05,890 S3: at the in the back room of some person's home, the, 480 00:28:07,050 --> 00:28:08,250 S3: you know, the stable. 481 00:28:09,050 --> 00:28:09,490 S8: Uh huh. 482 00:28:09,770 --> 00:28:12,210 S3: Which is where they were. They could have used their 483 00:28:12,210 --> 00:28:15,090 S3: cell phone to call mom, who was staying at the 484 00:28:15,090 --> 00:28:16,010 S3: other side of town. 485 00:28:16,090 --> 00:28:16,930 S6: Send an email. 486 00:28:17,050 --> 00:28:20,490 S3: Yeah, maybe send an email saying I'm going into labor, 487 00:28:21,050 --> 00:28:21,690 S3: you know. 488 00:28:21,730 --> 00:28:22,330 S1: Exactly. 489 00:28:22,410 --> 00:28:23,050 S8: Exactly. 490 00:28:23,090 --> 00:28:23,409 S1: No. 491 00:28:24,690 --> 00:28:31,450 S3: But the other thing is now we don't know if, uh, 492 00:28:32,369 --> 00:28:36,450 S3: if anyone we conjectured that they were still alive, but 493 00:28:36,450 --> 00:28:37,410 S3: do we know that? 494 00:28:39,130 --> 00:28:39,770 S1: Yeah. Right. 495 00:28:39,810 --> 00:28:40,250 S8: Yeah. 496 00:28:41,130 --> 00:28:44,850 S1: So. Well, we do know when when Jesus was, wasn't 497 00:28:44,850 --> 00:28:47,890 S1: he 13 or 12? He was 12 when they went 498 00:28:47,890 --> 00:28:52,970 S1: up to Jerusalem in the caravan. And then Mary and 499 00:28:52,970 --> 00:28:57,370 S1: Joseph join with the rest of the group. And Jesus 500 00:28:57,370 --> 00:29:00,330 S1: is not there. Yeah. And so I think that's part 501 00:29:00,330 --> 00:29:02,610 S1: of what Ruth is asking. Wouldn't they have gone if 502 00:29:02,610 --> 00:29:05,370 S1: there's a census and it's a family thing, wouldn't they 503 00:29:05,410 --> 00:29:07,050 S1: have gone together? 504 00:29:07,090 --> 00:29:09,290 S3: Even the caravan wasn't necessarily family. 505 00:29:09,850 --> 00:29:10,330 S2: Right. 506 00:29:11,610 --> 00:29:16,010 S3: That was that was just people going back, uh, from Jerusalem. 507 00:29:16,650 --> 00:29:17,130 S1: Okay. 508 00:29:17,370 --> 00:29:21,600 S3: Yeah. Yeah. So it's just a conjecture to think that 509 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:25,840 S3: there were family. Okay. And and and and and that's 510 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:29,240 S3: why I think I suspect that there wasn't anyone there 511 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:30,200 S3: for them to call. 512 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:36,200 S1: Or ask ChatGPT. Yeah, you could ask that. Okay. So 513 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:41,680 S1: I've always wondered, would would John the Baptist. He was 514 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:46,160 S1: the cousin of Jesus, right? Would they? You're not you. 515 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:48,240 S1: Neither of you are saying yes or no. 516 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:50,280 S2: He's he's some relative. 517 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:51,200 S1: He's a relative. 518 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,040 S2: He is. He is related in some way. 519 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,960 S1: Do you think and I know what Mike is gonna say, 520 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,400 S1: so don't say anything, Mike. We don't know. But do 521 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,240 S1: you think that that John and Jesus would have ever 522 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:07,400 S1: gone up to the temple together when they were young kids? Um, 523 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:09,640 S1: like they did when Jesus was 12? 524 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,280 S3: Well, you know, I don't know if you read the 525 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,160 S3: story completely when Jesus stayed at the temple when he 526 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,520 S3: was 12 and talked with the Jewish leaders, John went 527 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:23,160 S3: out to the wilderness and he was out there and 528 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,080 S3: his parents couldn't find him either. And they were saying, 529 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,600 S3: Where is John? He's out in the wilderness. He's under 530 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,680 S3: a rock someplace. You know, he's he's floating on the 531 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,400 S3: Dead Sea. No, we don't have no idea what they 532 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:36,640 S3: did together. So. 533 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,720 S2: Michael, for a second, I thought you had been smoking something. 534 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,240 S2: You know, I don't think that that's actually in scripture. 535 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:45,720 S1: I thought he was. I thought he was being serious 536 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,560 S1: with him. Okay, Ruth, it is a really good question. 537 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:51,720 S1: Thank you for bringing your imagination to this and looking 538 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:53,719 S1: at I wonder how all that worked out. And I 539 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,080 S1: think these are some of the questions one day we 540 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,960 S1: may get answers to. Uh, Robert is in Florida. Robert, 541 00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:02,000 S1: you're on with the two Michaels. Go right ahead. 542 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:06,240 S9: Hey, Chris. Thanks. Hey, Michaels. Be easy on me. This is. 543 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,840 S9: I'm in the milk stage. I have been for years. 544 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:12,960 S9: So recently, Psalm 22 popped out of the page on me. 545 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,760 S9: And I don't know why growing up or even in 546 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:20,550 S9: my life, I haven't heard my pastor or anybody really explain? Uh, 547 00:31:20,870 --> 00:31:23,670 S9: Jesus on the cross and what he went through during 548 00:31:23,670 --> 00:31:28,510 S9: the crucifixion at Golgotha. And it seems very obvious to 549 00:31:28,550 --> 00:31:33,510 S9: me that Psalm 22, um, is perfectly in line with 550 00:31:33,550 --> 00:31:37,430 S9: from start to finish of what Jesus went through on 551 00:31:37,430 --> 00:31:41,430 S9: the cross. And I think that I've been trying to 552 00:31:41,990 --> 00:31:46,550 S9: defend him by saying, father, why have you forsaken me? 553 00:31:46,550 --> 00:31:49,430 S9: Because everybody wants to pile on and say, Jesus was 554 00:31:49,430 --> 00:31:51,950 S9: losing his faith there at the end. And what I 555 00:31:51,950 --> 00:31:55,670 S9: learned here just recently that you've probably known for decades, 556 00:31:55,670 --> 00:31:59,070 S9: but nobody teaches. And I want to know why nobody's 557 00:31:59,070 --> 00:32:04,150 S9: teaching the possibility of of Psalm 22 being a prophecy or, 558 00:32:04,750 --> 00:32:07,830 S9: you know, everything that he encountered on the cross was 559 00:32:07,830 --> 00:32:10,310 S9: wrote down 1010 years ago. 560 00:32:11,670 --> 00:32:13,790 S3: Well, let me just say, I don't think it's true 561 00:32:13,790 --> 00:32:17,510 S3: that nobody teaches that because I, for one, teach that 562 00:32:17,510 --> 00:32:19,630 S3: Psalm 22 is a messianic prophecy. 563 00:32:20,390 --> 00:32:20,990 S9: Uh, okay. 564 00:32:21,230 --> 00:32:26,390 S3: And I suspect that Mike V does, too. Um, and yeah, 565 00:32:26,390 --> 00:32:30,910 S3: he's nodding his head. And so, uh, I don't think 566 00:32:30,910 --> 00:32:33,430 S3: that we have a problem here. I think a forsaken. 567 00:32:33,510 --> 00:32:36,710 S3: The question about why have you forsaken me? That is 568 00:32:36,870 --> 00:32:40,510 S3: a rhetorical question. He's expressing his anguish on the cross. 569 00:32:40,510 --> 00:32:43,270 S3: It's not saying that he believes, because if you read 570 00:32:43,270 --> 00:32:46,710 S3: the whole Psalm, the rest of this first person sort 571 00:32:46,710 --> 00:32:50,910 S3: of psalm that David wrote, David's, uh, writing in the 572 00:32:50,910 --> 00:32:53,430 S3: first person as as if he were the Messiah. That's 573 00:32:53,430 --> 00:32:56,910 S3: what I think is happening. It's a literary device. Uh, 574 00:32:56,910 --> 00:33:00,310 S3: but what he's doing is he's expressing his anguish, uh, 575 00:33:00,310 --> 00:33:03,510 S3: which is perfectly legitimate. It doesn't mean because he has 576 00:33:03,510 --> 00:33:07,990 S3: this great hope that follows him, that, uh, that he will, uh, 577 00:33:08,630 --> 00:33:11,590 S3: serve the Lord. Uh, yet I will give praise in 578 00:33:11,590 --> 00:33:15,030 S3: the great congregation. Because of you, I will fulfill my vows. 579 00:33:15,030 --> 00:33:19,380 S3: He says later on in verse 25. So he's that's 580 00:33:19,380 --> 00:33:23,180 S3: one thing. And then secondly, it's clearly, uh, messianic. The 581 00:33:23,220 --> 00:33:26,700 S3: book of Matthew cites it where it says that they 582 00:33:26,740 --> 00:33:31,580 S3: divided his garments. And then also, uh, in verse 16, 583 00:33:31,620 --> 00:33:34,380 S3: there's the great dispute about they pierced my hands and 584 00:33:34,380 --> 00:33:38,620 S3: my feet. Uh, uh, whether it says they as a 585 00:33:38,620 --> 00:33:40,940 S3: lion are my hands and my feet or they pierced 586 00:33:40,940 --> 00:33:45,420 S3: my hands and my feet. But the, the very earliest 587 00:33:45,700 --> 00:33:49,300 S3: manuscript or fragment that we have of Psalm 22 from 588 00:33:49,300 --> 00:33:57,260 S3: the Qumran scrolls is in the same family of manuscripts that, uh, 589 00:33:57,820 --> 00:33:59,900 S3: that would say as a lion, but that one, the 590 00:33:59,900 --> 00:34:03,459 S3: most early one that we have from Qumran says they pierced. 591 00:34:03,460 --> 00:34:06,140 S3: And I think so does the. Well, I know the 592 00:34:06,420 --> 00:34:10,100 S3: so does the Septuagint. And as a result, it seems 593 00:34:10,100 --> 00:34:14,120 S3: to me it's clearly a prediction of the crucifixion a 594 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:18,100 S3: thousand years before and also hundreds of years before crucifixion 595 00:34:18,100 --> 00:34:18,900 S3: was ever known. 596 00:34:19,380 --> 00:34:20,020 S1: Mike V. 597 00:34:20,860 --> 00:34:26,819 S2: Right. Um, ancient rabbis like Jesus would have, uh, not quoted, uh, 598 00:34:26,820 --> 00:34:29,060 S2: not necessarily given a chapter and verse because they didn't 599 00:34:29,060 --> 00:34:31,460 S2: have chapters and verses back then. But in order to 600 00:34:31,460 --> 00:34:34,020 S2: refer to a particular section of Scripture, they would quote 601 00:34:34,060 --> 00:34:37,580 S2: especially sort of the lead verse or verses of that passage. 602 00:34:37,780 --> 00:34:41,300 S2: And so Jesus does in verse 46 of Matthew 27, 603 00:34:41,620 --> 00:34:44,500 S2: you know, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Uh, 604 00:34:44,500 --> 00:34:48,580 S2: that's Psalm 221. I don't think he's necessarily bemoaning the 605 00:34:48,580 --> 00:34:50,420 S2: fact that God has turned away from him, because I 606 00:34:50,420 --> 00:34:53,540 S2: don't think God did. I think if the Trinity were broken, 607 00:34:53,860 --> 00:34:56,860 S2: the universe would cease to exist because you cannot have 608 00:34:56,900 --> 00:35:01,060 S2: a nontrinitarian God. So God's not turning his back on Jesus, not, 609 00:35:01,060 --> 00:35:03,980 S2: not from the standpoint of abandoning him or something like that. 610 00:35:04,020 --> 00:35:07,020 S2: What Jesus is doing is saying, look, this is Psalm 611 00:35:07,060 --> 00:35:10,980 S2: 221 and so you've got, you've got in verse 27, 612 00:35:10,980 --> 00:35:14,850 S2: Matthew is very careful to, to make reference to an 613 00:35:14,850 --> 00:35:20,130 S2: allusions to Psalm 22 in. In verse 27 of Matthew 27, 614 00:35:20,570 --> 00:35:23,569 S2: he alludes to chapter 22, verses six through eight and 615 00:35:23,570 --> 00:35:28,410 S2: verse 34. He refers to Psalm 2216 in verse 35, 616 00:35:28,410 --> 00:35:32,210 S2: Psalm 2217, 18, and so on. And so it's very 617 00:35:32,210 --> 00:35:36,410 S2: clearly not only Matthew, but Jesus is drawing attention to 618 00:35:36,450 --> 00:35:40,930 S2: his fulfillment of Psalm 22, and he does it by saying, 619 00:35:40,930 --> 00:35:42,969 S2: My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Which 620 00:35:42,969 --> 00:35:44,850 S2: is how Psalm 221 starts. 621 00:35:45,050 --> 00:35:50,330 S1: Yes. And you said, doctor, the the Psalter, the Psalms 622 00:35:50,370 --> 00:35:53,930 S1: are the hymnbook of of the Messiah, Jesus. 623 00:35:53,969 --> 00:35:56,850 S3: Uh, Dietrich Bonhoeffer said, it's the. 624 00:35:57,570 --> 00:35:58,890 S1: You and Dietrich. Okay. Yeah. 625 00:36:00,010 --> 00:36:00,370 S3: Uh. 626 00:36:00,770 --> 00:36:04,890 S1: Credit's due. Yeah. Okay. But but my point is, would 627 00:36:04,969 --> 00:36:08,290 S1: and question would Jesus, when he was a little boy, 628 00:36:08,290 --> 00:36:11,330 S1: when he read this or when he was 12 or 13, 629 00:36:11,610 --> 00:36:16,009 S1: would he have seen himself in Psalm 22 at that 630 00:36:16,010 --> 00:36:18,370 S1: point when he was younger? Do you think? 631 00:36:19,650 --> 00:36:23,969 S2: Impossible to say Jesus. Jesus says in a couple of 632 00:36:23,969 --> 00:36:27,170 S2: times in the Gospel of John that he only teaches 633 00:36:27,170 --> 00:36:31,089 S2: and only speaks what God tells him and what God 634 00:36:31,130 --> 00:36:35,770 S2: tells him to say. And so in his humanity, it's 635 00:36:35,770 --> 00:36:39,649 S2: possible that Jesus may have some understanding of that, but 636 00:36:39,650 --> 00:36:43,129 S2: we don't know that for sure. It's possible that later on, 637 00:36:43,130 --> 00:36:45,089 S2: God revealed that to him, and he might not have 638 00:36:45,090 --> 00:36:47,850 S2: known it at that particular time, but we just don't know. 639 00:36:47,890 --> 00:36:50,450 S2: We really don't. He does clearly, when he visits the 640 00:36:50,450 --> 00:36:52,690 S2: temple and he says, did you not know I had 641 00:36:52,690 --> 00:36:54,930 S2: to be in my father's house? He's clearly referring not 642 00:36:54,930 --> 00:36:56,930 S2: to Joseph there. He's referring to God. And so he 643 00:36:56,930 --> 00:37:00,210 S2: has some some level of messianic awareness. Even at that 644 00:37:00,210 --> 00:37:04,730 S2: point when he's 12. How much is very hard to say. Yeah. 645 00:37:05,250 --> 00:37:09,450 S3: And I think very early on, someone actually asked about 646 00:37:09,450 --> 00:37:14,320 S3: this on open line and I was when I think 647 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,760 S3: I when when was the Lord aware of who he 648 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:21,319 S3: was as fully God and fully man? How did he 649 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:26,239 S3: know if he was the Messiah? And I, I went 650 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:28,080 S3: back by the time he was 12, he clearly knew 651 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:33,440 S3: who he was, right. But even earlier, I think in 652 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:37,960 S3: Isaiah 50, verse four, in the third of the four 653 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,600 S3: servant songs in the book of Isaiah, it talks about 654 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:44,240 S3: how the father wakens him morning by morning to teach him. 655 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,920 S3: And so I think very early in his life that 656 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,799 S3: I kind of think of Samuel hearing the voice of 657 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,239 S3: God and Eli going to Eli and saying, what do 658 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:56,200 S3: you want? Do you remember that? And and then Eli says, 659 00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,319 S3: go listen. Speak, Lord, for your servant listens. Well, I 660 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,080 S3: suspect that the Lord Jesus as a child would hear 661 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,960 S3: the voice of his father informing him and teaching him. 662 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,120 S3: So had he yet taught him, taught him the meaning 663 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,080 S3: of Psalm 22. I don't know, but clearly he had 664 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:16,320 S3: a clear messianic i.e. entity from a child. 665 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:18,880 S1: This is one of the reasons why I love having 666 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,800 S1: the two Michaels here. Robert, and your question that comes 667 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,280 S1: alongside here is that we can dig into this, ask 668 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,200 S1: some really. There are some surface questions, and then there 669 00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:30,080 S1: are some questions that go a little deeper and a 670 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:33,600 S1: little deeper still. And we're doing that today with Doctor 671 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,319 S1: Michael Rudnick and Doctor Michael Van Landingham. You can find 672 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,359 S1: out more about the Moody Bible commentary. They are the 673 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:42,960 S1: general editors reporting for duty of that. You can find 674 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:48,680 S1: that resource at Chris Barberi live.org, Chris dot ORG. Our 675 00:38:48,680 --> 00:39:02,520 S1: remaining moments remaining questions straight ahead on Moody Radio. June 676 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:07,080 S1: is the month of weddings. And so pastor Mike Novotny 677 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:09,630 S1: is going to join us. Hope I say it better 678 00:39:09,630 --> 00:39:12,750 S1: tomorrow when he's here. Pastor Mike Novotny is going to 679 00:39:12,750 --> 00:39:15,910 S1: join us because he has written a book about the 680 00:39:15,910 --> 00:39:19,670 S1: first year of marriage, or how to do the first 681 00:39:19,710 --> 00:39:22,510 S1: year of marriage and the struggles that many people have. 682 00:39:22,510 --> 00:39:24,550 S1: I think it's going to be a good program for 683 00:39:24,550 --> 00:39:27,270 S1: Friday right here on Chris Fabry Live. The two Michaels 684 00:39:27,270 --> 00:39:30,390 S1: are with us, and so is Shonda. Shonda. Go right ahead. 685 00:39:30,390 --> 00:39:31,310 S1: What's your question? 686 00:39:32,110 --> 00:39:34,670 S10: Hi. I'm calling. I wanted to know, what do you 687 00:39:34,670 --> 00:39:39,470 S10: all think about Nephilim? I hear people talking about how 688 00:39:39,750 --> 00:39:43,630 S10: angels impregnated daughters of the earth, and then some of 689 00:39:43,630 --> 00:39:46,589 S10: them reference the book of Enoch, and I just wanted 690 00:39:46,590 --> 00:39:48,270 S10: to know, what are you guys? What are your thoughts 691 00:39:48,270 --> 00:39:49,030 S10: about that? 692 00:39:50,030 --> 00:39:53,710 S3: Well, unless you're quoting Jude from the Book of Enoch, 693 00:39:53,710 --> 00:39:56,670 S3: which no one is when they do that, I think 694 00:39:56,989 --> 00:39:59,870 S3: this is like the big sensation nowadays. People are thinking, oh, 695 00:39:59,910 --> 00:40:02,830 S3: we need the Book of Enoch. No, we don't. We 696 00:40:02,830 --> 00:40:06,630 S3: really don't. It's not in the Bible. Uh, it's just 697 00:40:06,710 --> 00:40:11,990 S3: intertestamental literature. So that's the first thing. But secondly, uh, 698 00:40:12,310 --> 00:40:14,910 S3: you know, yes, Sons of God is a term that's 699 00:40:14,910 --> 00:40:19,469 S3: used in job for angels. I think it's in job 38, 700 00:40:19,750 --> 00:40:25,029 S3: but Jesus was very clear about what it would be 701 00:40:25,030 --> 00:40:29,390 S3: like in the resurrection that will be like the angels 702 00:40:29,390 --> 00:40:32,150 S3: who do not reproduce, who do, who do not marry, 703 00:40:32,670 --> 00:40:35,549 S3: nor are they given in marriage. And yet when we 704 00:40:35,590 --> 00:40:40,350 S3: come to, uh, that's by the way, in Matthew 2230, 705 00:40:41,469 --> 00:40:43,270 S3: then it says, the sons of God saw that the 706 00:40:43,270 --> 00:40:46,549 S3: daughters of mankind were beautiful, and they took any they 707 00:40:46,550 --> 00:40:53,390 S3: chose as wives. Angels don't marry. And so that doesn't 708 00:40:53,390 --> 00:40:56,629 S3: make any sense to me. And, and what this is 709 00:40:56,630 --> 00:41:00,590 S3: talking about is in the context you have the ungodly 710 00:41:00,590 --> 00:41:03,029 S3: line of Cain. At the end of chapter four, you 711 00:41:03,030 --> 00:41:05,820 S3: have the godly line of Seth, the sons of God. 712 00:41:06,140 --> 00:41:08,940 S3: In chapter five and then in chapter six, you have 713 00:41:08,940 --> 00:41:11,580 S3: the mingling of those lines the sons of God and 714 00:41:11,580 --> 00:41:15,180 S3: the daughters of men. And then what happens? The Nephilim 715 00:41:15,180 --> 00:41:17,700 S3: are born and they are on the earth. Those days. 716 00:41:17,739 --> 00:41:20,780 S3: Nephilim is just a Hebrew word. It means for fallen ones. 717 00:41:21,219 --> 00:41:23,460 S3: That's what it means. Fallen ones were on the earth 718 00:41:23,940 --> 00:41:26,540 S3: when the sons of God came to the daughters of mankind. 719 00:41:26,540 --> 00:41:30,500 S3: In other words, they corrupted the world because the godly 720 00:41:30,500 --> 00:41:33,180 S3: line didn't stay pure. They married people who obviously were 721 00:41:33,180 --> 00:41:36,660 S3: not believers because they were beautiful, and they became the 722 00:41:36,660 --> 00:41:40,140 S3: powerful men of old. The famous men probably, I would 723 00:41:40,140 --> 00:41:45,420 S3: say infamous men, uh, powerful because of their, uh, devious or, or, 724 00:41:45,820 --> 00:41:50,340 S3: or oppressive approach to life. 725 00:41:51,540 --> 00:41:55,180 S1: Why do you think that's such a common question? And Shonda, 726 00:41:55,180 --> 00:41:58,900 S1: thank you for your call. Um, that this, this hits 727 00:41:58,900 --> 00:42:01,020 S1: at the imagination, doesn't it, Michael. 728 00:42:01,060 --> 00:42:04,380 S3: Yeah, yeah. Why are there Nephilim? These are giants. because 729 00:42:04,420 --> 00:42:08,339 S3: part of it's the translation from the King James that 730 00:42:08,340 --> 00:42:10,180 S3: they were giants in the earth. And we kind of 731 00:42:10,219 --> 00:42:13,940 S3: get the image of fee fi fo fum. You know, 732 00:42:13,980 --> 00:42:17,020 S3: in the olden days there were giants and they were 733 00:42:17,020 --> 00:42:22,140 S3: products of, of, uh, the demons and humanity. Mike's got 734 00:42:22,140 --> 00:42:23,220 S3: an explanation. 735 00:42:23,260 --> 00:42:26,420 S2: Oh, just just very briefly. You know, I've heard people say, well, 736 00:42:26,420 --> 00:42:30,860 S2: these were demons. They possessed people and they did immoral 737 00:42:30,860 --> 00:42:34,140 S2: things with the daughters of men. I'm thinking, okay, show 738 00:42:34,140 --> 00:42:36,980 S2: me in the text where it says that. It doesn't 739 00:42:36,980 --> 00:42:39,660 S2: say that we are imposing upon the text some very 740 00:42:39,660 --> 00:42:43,100 S2: interesting things, but things that are probably not justified and warranted. 741 00:42:43,500 --> 00:42:47,020 S2: And so I think it's I don't I think it's 742 00:42:47,020 --> 00:42:51,340 S2: very unlikely that that, uh, those kind of interpretations can 743 00:42:51,340 --> 00:42:53,940 S2: be legitimate. I just don't think so. 744 00:42:54,940 --> 00:42:58,980 S1: And we end with another Michael or a Mike. Mike, 745 00:42:58,980 --> 00:43:00,980 S1: what's your question? Let's try to get it in before 746 00:43:00,980 --> 00:43:02,420 S1: we end today. Go right ahead. 747 00:43:03,090 --> 00:43:06,410 S11: Yes. I'm dealing with a man whose sister is quite 748 00:43:06,450 --> 00:43:10,129 S11: the charismatic Christian. And. And so he's talking to me 749 00:43:10,130 --> 00:43:14,010 S11: about the ending of Mark. Mark chapter 16, verse 17. 750 00:43:14,170 --> 00:43:17,090 S11: So all the talking that you've been doing about not 751 00:43:17,090 --> 00:43:20,850 S11: all speak in tongues and not all do miracles or prophesy. 752 00:43:21,330 --> 00:43:23,890 S11: That's very clear to me that not everybody, even in 753 00:43:23,890 --> 00:43:29,610 S11: the first century, did that. However, in March 1617, it 754 00:43:29,610 --> 00:43:33,730 S11: sounds like it's normative for everybody. Uh, those who believe 755 00:43:33,730 --> 00:43:38,890 S11: will do this, they will ingest poison. They'll handle the snakes. Um, 756 00:43:39,090 --> 00:43:41,930 S11: they will dream dreams, they will this, that, and they're 757 00:43:41,930 --> 00:43:47,370 S11: very supernatural. And just looking at the basic, uh, text there, 758 00:43:47,690 --> 00:43:50,890 S11: it sounds like it's for everybody. And so I asked 759 00:43:50,890 --> 00:43:54,170 S11: this question, being fully cognizant of the fact that the 760 00:43:54,170 --> 00:43:56,290 S11: ending of Mark is a debated issue as far as 761 00:43:56,330 --> 00:43:58,850 S11: whether it should be in the Bible in the first place. 762 00:43:59,050 --> 00:44:02,009 S11: So if you believe that it is part of the Bible. 763 00:44:02,570 --> 00:44:04,969 S11: How can you harmonize that with the rest of Scripture? 764 00:44:06,250 --> 00:44:09,170 S1: Okay. And we only have three minutes left. 765 00:44:09,210 --> 00:44:11,290 S3: I'll give my one minute answer, and then Mike can 766 00:44:11,290 --> 00:44:12,090 S3: give his two. 767 00:44:12,210 --> 00:44:13,210 S1: Okay. Okay. 768 00:44:13,530 --> 00:44:15,730 S3: My one minute answer is I don't worry about it 769 00:44:15,730 --> 00:44:18,049 S3: too much, because I don't think it's really part of 770 00:44:18,050 --> 00:44:21,609 S3: the text of Mark from verse nine onward. It doesn't 771 00:44:21,610 --> 00:44:24,890 S3: appear in the earliest and best manuscripts, and I don't 772 00:44:24,890 --> 00:44:27,570 S3: think about that. But if it were in the text 773 00:44:27,570 --> 00:44:30,129 S3: of Mark, I think it's just saying these signs will 774 00:44:30,130 --> 00:44:33,450 S3: accompany the implied being some of those who believe, and 775 00:44:33,450 --> 00:44:37,969 S3: I think it would refer to the apostles and what 776 00:44:37,969 --> 00:44:41,290 S3: they what they are proclaiming when they proclaim. You could 777 00:44:41,290 --> 00:44:45,450 S3: see really amazing things. For example, Paul, uh, uh, bitten 778 00:44:45,450 --> 00:44:50,490 S3: by a viper and, and doesn't die. Uh, I mean, uh, 779 00:44:50,570 --> 00:44:55,730 S3: Paul touches cloth. People are healed without even touching him. 780 00:44:55,730 --> 00:44:59,970 S3: Peter has walks by in his shadow, heals people. So 781 00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:04,319 S3: I think these really remarkable things would fit much better. 782 00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:08,960 S3: And Paul did, uh, have people he laid hands on them. 783 00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:13,040 S3: He actually raised a person from the dead. So did Peter. So, uh, 784 00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:15,120 S3: it seems to me that that in the book of acts, 785 00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:17,680 S3: we see that, that the some of those who do 786 00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:19,000 S3: this are the apostles. 787 00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:19,840 S1: Mike V. 788 00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:22,120 S2: I hear the music playing. 789 00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:24,000 S1: Yeah. You gotta say. Got a minute? 790 00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:26,759 S2: No. Rudnick had a great answer. I agree with him. 791 00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:30,080 S2: I don't think that that's actually an inspired part of scripture. 792 00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:33,040 S2: All kinds of reasons for that. Um, but I'll let 793 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:33,480 S2: it lay. 794 00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:38,279 S1: Okay. And, and that raises another question then that we 795 00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:40,719 S1: don't have time for. Obviously, Mike, thank you for your 796 00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:43,359 S1: call here today. So we had three Michaels on the 797 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:46,560 S1: program and a lot of other callers. And we've already 798 00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:49,120 S1: looked at the calendar. We're going to come back here 799 00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:52,680 S1: in July. I think it's the 16th that the two 800 00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:54,920 S1: of you are going to be with us. And I 801 00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:58,600 S1: don't think we've scheduled Eva and Sue again. But one 802 00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:02,200 S1: of these days, they're coming back. Right, gentlemen? Yeah, sure. 803 00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:03,040 S1: It'd be great. 804 00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:05,319 S3: You should have them on the 16th. 805 00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:06,880 S1: That's me. Yeah. 806 00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:07,359 S3: Leave us. 807 00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:10,640 S1: Off. Thank you. To. It's always fun to get to 808 00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:13,400 S1: talk with you and to talk about our favorite subject. 809 00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:17,160 S1: Which is? Which is the scriptures. So come back again, okay. Yep. 810 00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:18,680 S3: That's great. Thanks for having us. 811 00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:22,759 S1: Mike Novotny is going to be here tomorrow, pastor Mike. 812 00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,680 S1: And he is really concerned about those who've just gotten 813 00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:29,239 S1: married and are looking at the first year of marriage, 814 00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:32,000 S1: the Ops. There are a lot of really good things 815 00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:34,800 S1: that happened, but there are a lot of problems too, 816 00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:38,759 S1: and things you didn't expect. You had these expectations that 817 00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:40,560 S1: didn't come true. So we're going to talk about that 818 00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:43,200 S1: tomorrow right here at the Radio Backyard Fence. Join us 819 00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:46,239 S1: for Chris Fabry Live, a production of Moody Radio, a 820 00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:50,760 S1: Ministry of Moody Bible Institute online. Chris Fabry live.org.