1 00:00:01,240 --> 00:00:06,760 S1: Broadcasting from Chicago, across North America and beyond. It's Carl 2 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:11,400 S1: and crew. Come as you are an experienced guide. Overcome 3 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:16,160 S1: what seems impossible and live as you never imagined. Start 4 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:17,600 S1: your morning with a laugh. 5 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:22,439 S2: Practical from the Bible. Tips and tricks to kill. Not 6 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:27,880 S2: tricks but tips and tricks. Tips and tricks to kill. 7 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:29,160 S2: Tips and tricks. 8 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:31,120 S1: Delivering the truth daily. 9 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:34,000 S3: All of my attempts to, you know, prop myself up 10 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,560 S3: with achievement and good works. Well, God wasn't impressed by that, 11 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:38,959 S3: even if other people were. 12 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:41,800 S2: The gospel changes everything. 13 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:45,240 S4: Freedom in Christ. Man, it's like that backpack of cement 14 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:47,280 S4: just falling to the ground. 15 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:51,640 S1: Now from the call of Hope Studios, this is Carl 16 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:52,279 S1: and crew. 17 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:57,560 S5: Oh, man. Guys, when you think about AI and, um. Ah, I'm. 18 00:00:57,600 --> 00:00:59,880 S5: I'm a little bit discouraged this morning, to be honest 19 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:02,390 S5: with you. Oh, no. Yeah, I got up really early, and. 20 00:01:02,710 --> 00:01:05,590 S5: And I spent too much time looking at what's going 21 00:01:05,590 --> 00:01:10,030 S5: on on X. And these culture wars are out of control. 22 00:01:10,030 --> 00:01:12,710 S5: And then you add to that the layer of AI 23 00:01:12,750 --> 00:01:15,910 S5: and you don't even know what's real anymore. And I'm 24 00:01:15,910 --> 00:01:19,110 S5: glad for community notes or whatever they are on, on 25 00:01:19,110 --> 00:01:22,870 S5: X that allows people to identify when things are fake. 26 00:01:23,830 --> 00:01:26,590 S5: But you look at AI and you look at the 27 00:01:26,590 --> 00:01:31,110 S5: advancement of intelligence, right? And you think, wow, where in 28 00:01:31,110 --> 00:01:32,509 S5: the world is this going? One of the things that 29 00:01:32,510 --> 00:01:34,789 S5: we want to do is allow your fears and allow 30 00:01:34,790 --> 00:01:38,550 S5: you to embrace different technologies in a way that you're like, wow, 31 00:01:38,590 --> 00:01:40,750 S5: we got a handle on this. We know how to 32 00:01:40,750 --> 00:01:43,990 S5: filter the junk and we're using it to the glory 33 00:01:43,990 --> 00:01:47,590 S5: of God. Jason Thacker, our guest right now, assistant Prof 34 00:01:47,590 --> 00:01:50,670 S5: of philosophy and ethics at Boyce College in Southern Seminary 35 00:01:50,670 --> 00:01:55,590 S5: in Louisville, Kentucky. He's senior fellow in bioethics and director 36 00:01:55,590 --> 00:02:00,020 S5: of research Institute at the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission man. 37 00:02:00,060 --> 00:02:01,700 S5: You got a lot of titles there, my man. Can 38 00:02:01,700 --> 00:02:02,540 S5: you live up to it? 39 00:02:03,060 --> 00:02:04,580 S6: I don't know about that, but it's good to be 40 00:02:04,580 --> 00:02:05,380 S6: with you all this morning. 41 00:02:05,420 --> 00:02:09,980 S5: Hey, man. Uh, Jason h and I've said this a 42 00:02:09,980 --> 00:02:12,500 S5: lot around here. When the printing press came about back 43 00:02:12,500 --> 00:02:15,860 S5: in the day, there was some real genuine fear about that. 44 00:02:15,900 --> 00:02:20,460 S5: There's downsides to anything new, but there's huge upsides as well. 45 00:02:20,540 --> 00:02:23,179 S5: Let's let's go into the downside first. Let's just go there. 46 00:02:23,220 --> 00:02:25,660 S5: What's the downside of AI, Jason. 47 00:02:26,260 --> 00:02:28,980 S6: Yeah, this is definitely one of those revolutionary technologies. And 48 00:02:28,980 --> 00:02:30,660 S6: I think a lot of people say, man, this is 49 00:02:30,660 --> 00:02:32,900 S6: just a tool. It's just a tool we use. That's 50 00:02:32,900 --> 00:02:34,739 S6: all it really is. But I want to say, even 51 00:02:34,740 --> 00:02:37,180 S6: the printing press, it wasn't just a tool. It did something. 52 00:02:37,180 --> 00:02:39,299 S6: It changed us. It formed us. It made a new 53 00:02:39,300 --> 00:02:41,740 S6: society in many ways. And the ways we communicate and 54 00:02:41,740 --> 00:02:44,780 S6: interact with one another. AI is doing that too. It's 55 00:02:44,780 --> 00:02:47,700 S6: one of those technologies that I don't think is truly intelligent. 56 00:02:47,700 --> 00:02:50,780 S6: It's not like us as human beings, but nevertheless, it 57 00:02:50,780 --> 00:02:53,419 S6: is forming and shaping us in really profound ways. Just 58 00:02:53,419 --> 00:02:56,299 S6: as you said, Carl, even social media, the algorithms that 59 00:02:56,300 --> 00:02:59,489 S6: we see every day, this isn't just a ChatGPT thing. 60 00:02:59,810 --> 00:03:01,890 S6: This is something that you've been using for a very 61 00:03:01,889 --> 00:03:04,010 S6: long time, just maybe not have known about it. And 62 00:03:04,010 --> 00:03:06,290 S6: I think it's high time that the Christian church step 63 00:03:06,290 --> 00:03:09,329 S6: into these conversations, to step in, to bring that hope, 64 00:03:09,690 --> 00:03:12,890 S6: to bring that resoluteness of who God is and what 65 00:03:12,889 --> 00:03:14,970 S6: he's done for us through Christ, and bring that to 66 00:03:15,010 --> 00:03:18,170 S6: bear on these emerging technologies like AI, where there is 67 00:03:18,169 --> 00:03:20,290 S6: a lot of fear, there's a lot of anxiety at times, 68 00:03:20,290 --> 00:03:22,450 S6: but God's Word is more than sufficient to help us 69 00:03:22,450 --> 00:03:23,890 S6: navigate these challenges. 70 00:03:24,090 --> 00:03:26,930 S3: Jason, you said that this is something we've been using 71 00:03:26,930 --> 00:03:30,770 S3: for some time and maybe haven't realized. Explain that a 72 00:03:30,770 --> 00:03:31,570 S3: little bit more. 73 00:03:32,250 --> 00:03:36,090 S6: Yeah. I mean, back in 2020, I released my book, 74 00:03:36,130 --> 00:03:39,250 S6: The Age of AI Artificial Intelligence in the Future of Humanity. 75 00:03:39,250 --> 00:03:41,210 S6: And I think at times I had friends that were like, 76 00:03:41,250 --> 00:03:43,330 S6: that's kind of cute. I'm glad you're working on that. 77 00:03:43,370 --> 00:03:45,010 S6: You know, it's not that big of a deal. And 78 00:03:45,010 --> 00:03:46,890 S6: it's kind of funny to me because now this is 79 00:03:46,890 --> 00:03:49,210 S6: what everyone wants to talk about. And I say that 80 00:03:49,210 --> 00:03:51,130 S6: to say is we've always been using it for our 81 00:03:51,130 --> 00:03:55,090 S6: communication tools to our banking, to economics, to the stock market, 82 00:03:55,130 --> 00:03:59,570 S6: to national defense and everything in between. Your little smartphone 83 00:03:59,570 --> 00:04:03,290 S6: is smart because it's powered by some form of artificial intelligence, 84 00:04:03,290 --> 00:04:06,970 S6: whether it's Apple's AI or Google or what have you, 85 00:04:06,970 --> 00:04:09,570 S6: is we're using these tools every single day, but especially 86 00:04:09,570 --> 00:04:13,850 S6: with the generative push that ChatGPT and meta and anthropic 87 00:04:13,850 --> 00:04:16,210 S6: and all of those type of tools, there is something 88 00:04:16,210 --> 00:04:19,849 S6: that's changing and it's interesting. And as we approach these tools, 89 00:04:19,850 --> 00:04:22,530 S6: they're not just neutral tools, they're doing something to us. 90 00:04:22,529 --> 00:04:25,650 S6: They're forming our perspective of God, what who God is 91 00:04:25,650 --> 00:04:28,370 S6: and what he's done, what who we are as human beings. 92 00:04:28,370 --> 00:04:31,370 S6: I think the most important question we can be asking today, 93 00:04:31,610 --> 00:04:33,250 S6: as well as the way we think about the world 94 00:04:33,250 --> 00:04:36,330 S6: around us, uh, these are not neutral tools. They're forming 95 00:04:36,330 --> 00:04:39,089 S6: and shaping us in very, very, very particular ways. 96 00:04:39,450 --> 00:04:42,570 S5: Yeah, I'm throw a curveball here. Have you cogitated thought 97 00:04:42,570 --> 00:04:48,330 S5: at all about, uh, end times with regard to AI 98 00:04:48,650 --> 00:04:52,930 S5: strength and ability to penetrate the masses and even communicate 99 00:04:52,930 --> 00:04:59,239 S5: large volumes of content It to billions of people. The 100 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:05,120 S5: power of AI almost brings end times theology, and I'm 101 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:07,480 S5: not predicting we don't do that here. We don't go 102 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:09,760 S5: a day or hour. We don't do that. There's a 103 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:13,839 S5: lot of cycles in history, but the advent of AI 104 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:17,960 S5: brings a whole new layer to the ability for a 105 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:21,080 S5: future Antichrist to communicate with the world. Right? Jason. 106 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:24,640 S6: Yeah. And that's the interesting thing is almost every generation, 107 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:28,040 S6: especially as technological developments come out, say, oh, maybe this 108 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,200 S6: is it, maybe this is it. And it may in 109 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:33,760 S6: some sense we go, well, there's obviously ways that these 110 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:36,800 S6: tools can be used. I mean, even Ephesians 612 tells 111 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:39,800 S6: us we don't wrestle against principalities and powers of evil, 112 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,400 S6: not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers 113 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:46,599 S6: of evil. It's true that there's a spiritual warfare going on. 114 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:50,200 S6: I think it's sometimes it's easy for us to assume, oh, 115 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:52,640 S6: this is it. And what I would say is that 116 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:54,240 S6: at the end of the day, this is the hope 117 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,470 S6: of the gospel, is that Jesus wins. I think often 118 00:05:57,470 --> 00:06:00,870 S6: we approach these tools as if we're scared, we're overwhelmed, 119 00:06:00,870 --> 00:06:04,150 S6: we're fearful, and they are very powerful. But Jesus wins. 120 00:06:04,150 --> 00:06:06,229 S6: The end of the story is written. And so I 121 00:06:06,230 --> 00:06:10,070 S6: think that's the posture that Christians must take in approaching 122 00:06:10,070 --> 00:06:13,630 S6: any cultural, political and social issue. But even things like 123 00:06:13,630 --> 00:06:16,190 S6: artificial intelligence, there's a lot of mystery. There's a lot 124 00:06:16,190 --> 00:06:19,230 S6: of fear at times, but Jesus wins. The end of 125 00:06:19,230 --> 00:06:21,190 S6: the story is written. So we are called to live 126 00:06:21,190 --> 00:06:24,150 S6: in light of that in every single aspect of our lives. 127 00:06:24,150 --> 00:06:26,109 S6: So I don't think we have to give in to say, 128 00:06:26,150 --> 00:06:28,670 S6: is this it is this overwhelming what's going to happen here? 129 00:06:28,670 --> 00:06:31,789 S6: Because you know, Jesus is sovereign, Jesus is King. He's 130 00:06:31,790 --> 00:06:34,349 S6: over all of these things. And I think that gives 131 00:06:34,350 --> 00:06:36,830 S6: us a lot of hope. Um, that, that hope in 132 00:06:36,830 --> 00:06:38,870 S6: the second coming, the hope that the end of the 133 00:06:38,870 --> 00:06:41,390 S6: story is written. So how then do we step into 134 00:06:41,390 --> 00:06:44,430 S6: these conversations with hope and to use these tools to 135 00:06:44,470 --> 00:06:46,909 S6: bring about the spreading of the gospel to the ends 136 00:06:46,910 --> 00:06:47,790 S6: of the nations? 137 00:06:47,990 --> 00:06:50,670 S3: Jason Thacker, our guest this morning, we mentioned he's the 138 00:06:50,670 --> 00:06:53,750 S3: senior fellow in bioethics and director of the Research Institute 139 00:06:53,750 --> 00:06:56,900 S3: at the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission coming up, let's 140 00:06:56,900 --> 00:06:59,940 S3: talk a little bit more about AI and ministry, AI 141 00:06:59,980 --> 00:07:02,940 S3: and the church. What do we need to know so 142 00:07:02,940 --> 00:07:05,860 S3: that we can think and act rightly more? Coming up 143 00:07:05,860 --> 00:07:06,940 S3: here on Carl and crew. 144 00:07:08,220 --> 00:07:11,420 S1: Get to know the team behind the scenes. Follow Carl 145 00:07:11,420 --> 00:07:13,620 S1: and crew on Facebook and Instagram. 146 00:07:15,020 --> 00:07:17,660 S3: Got a special guest with us this morning, Jason Thacker. 147 00:07:17,700 --> 00:07:20,620 S3: He's senior fellow in bioethics and director of the Research 148 00:07:20,620 --> 00:07:23,940 S3: Institute at the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission. You know, 149 00:07:24,020 --> 00:07:27,700 S3: when we think about AI in the church, it's the 150 00:07:27,700 --> 00:07:30,660 S3: basic question people want to know is, should the pastor 151 00:07:30,700 --> 00:07:34,900 S3: use AI or ChatGPT to help write sermons? But it 152 00:07:34,900 --> 00:07:36,780 S3: goes deeper than that. I mean, that's the one. I 153 00:07:36,780 --> 00:07:39,700 S3: think it's the most obvious. Should we be creating things 154 00:07:39,700 --> 00:07:43,340 S3: using AI? But talk a little bit more about the 155 00:07:43,340 --> 00:07:45,780 S3: integration of AI in the church in ways that we 156 00:07:45,780 --> 00:07:47,820 S3: may not have even thought of yet? 157 00:07:48,380 --> 00:07:52,220 S6: Yeah. Every technological tool is designed for efficiency and convenience 158 00:07:52,220 --> 00:07:54,370 S6: and speed. That's why we do anything. That's why we 159 00:07:54,370 --> 00:07:56,330 S6: may be using a Waze app to get to work. 160 00:07:56,330 --> 00:07:58,450 S6: We know how to get there, but it may get this. 161 00:07:58,490 --> 00:08:00,330 S6: Get us there a little bit faster. And a lot 162 00:08:00,330 --> 00:08:02,810 S6: of those questions are happening in the church as well, 163 00:08:02,890 --> 00:08:06,370 S6: especially with routine administrative tasks and things. But I think 164 00:08:06,370 --> 00:08:08,090 S6: one of the things we have to recognize, going back 165 00:08:08,090 --> 00:08:10,890 S6: to that first segment, is that these tools are not neutral. 166 00:08:10,890 --> 00:08:13,610 S6: They're shaping us. They're forming us in very, very, very 167 00:08:13,610 --> 00:08:16,130 S6: particular ways. And we need to be aware of that. 168 00:08:16,170 --> 00:08:19,290 S6: I think especially in an age of efficiency and speed, 169 00:08:19,290 --> 00:08:22,130 S6: we need to sometimes slow down to say that wisdom 170 00:08:22,330 --> 00:08:25,330 S6: and virtue is actually something gained very slowly. I think 171 00:08:25,370 --> 00:08:29,050 S6: of Proverbs. I think it's 16 or 17, where there's 172 00:08:29,050 --> 00:08:30,970 S6: glory and gray hair, and some of us will give 173 00:08:30,970 --> 00:08:33,569 S6: an amen to that this morning. There's something about slowing 174 00:08:33,570 --> 00:08:36,050 S6: down in the cultivation of wisdom. And so I think 175 00:08:36,050 --> 00:08:37,809 S6: we need to be really aware of the way these 176 00:08:37,809 --> 00:08:40,250 S6: tools are shaping and forming us. Just because we can 177 00:08:40,250 --> 00:08:43,329 S6: do something doesn't mean we should. It doesn't mean that 178 00:08:43,330 --> 00:08:45,730 S6: it's the wisest thing. We can use these tools for 179 00:08:45,730 --> 00:08:48,170 S6: a lot of different things, but should we? Is that 180 00:08:48,170 --> 00:08:50,410 S6: good for us? Is that good for our people, especially 181 00:08:50,410 --> 00:08:52,089 S6: in the context of local church? 182 00:08:52,250 --> 00:08:54,480 S5: I'm so glad you're an ethics prof, because I'm going 183 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:58,600 S5: to pitch you the question here. When should the line 184 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:03,720 S5: for efficiency end and hard work and sweat equity begin? 185 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:06,160 S5: What's the line? What's the principle here? 186 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:08,520 S6: That is the million dollar question. I could sell a 187 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:10,880 S6: lot of books if I could answer that one precisely. 188 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:13,640 S6: Part of that depends on the person. I think that's interesting. 189 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:16,400 S6: Even Karl, you mentioned earlier about being on X this morning. 190 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:18,880 S6: You know, for me, it's actually not good for my soul. 191 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:20,840 S6: It's not good for my ministry. It's not good for 192 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,199 S6: me as a husband and a father and a pastor 193 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:25,920 S6: to engage in a lot on social media. That's a 194 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:30,320 S6: personal decision that knowing my temptations, knowing my proclivities, knowing 195 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,040 S6: kind of myself, that's not super wise for me to 196 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,200 S6: use a lot of social media. But that doesn't mean 197 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:37,800 S6: that social media itself is bad. And so I think 198 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:40,360 S6: we need to be kind of aware, especially with these tools, 199 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:42,800 S6: that there may be some who can use these tools 200 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,440 S6: in wise ways and virtuous ways, and others who need 201 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:48,440 S6: to back off a little bit on it. But again, 202 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:50,360 S6: I think the end of the day is, especially if 203 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:52,520 S6: you're putting your name on something, you need to be 204 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:54,720 S6: the one who's done it. You need to have integrity 205 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:56,920 S6: in all of your ways. That's a key theme of 206 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:00,400 S6: Proverbs in the wisdom literature throughout the scriptures. Having integrity. 207 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:03,040 S6: And I think we need to be aware of our 208 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:05,760 S6: emotional state at times. We need to be aware of 209 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:08,280 S6: the way people perceive and to also make sure we're 210 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:12,760 S6: not seeking to short circuit the growth process, the end 211 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:15,520 S6: of the idea of just what we accomplish sometimes, yeah, 212 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:18,440 S6: that's important, but the way we get there also matters. 213 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,000 S6: And I think that really matters in the AI conversation. 214 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:23,800 S5: Okay. As an ethics prof and a man committed to 215 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:27,960 S5: the Lordship of Jesus Christ, you know, just this this morning, 216 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:31,760 S5: I actually had a conviction from the Holy Spirit. It's like, no, I, 217 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:36,319 S5: I can't, can't do this, can't do this, I really can't. 218 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:39,400 S5: And yet I notice I have dear friends that are 219 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:43,120 S5: on there constantly that are in the cultural square. How 220 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,040 S5: does a person discern by the power of the spirit 221 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:49,040 S5: whether or not it's okay for you or not? 222 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:52,110 S6: Yeah, that's a great question as well. I mean, not 223 00:10:52,110 --> 00:10:54,469 S6: only is that a personal conscience thing, we know that 224 00:10:54,470 --> 00:10:57,710 S6: if we are indeed in Christ. Colossians three tells us 225 00:10:58,110 --> 00:11:01,189 S6: that the Spirit of God dwells in us. Um, and 226 00:11:01,190 --> 00:11:03,429 S6: knowing that you have the conviction of the spirit, but 227 00:11:03,429 --> 00:11:06,230 S6: you also do so in community. I think sometimes in 228 00:11:06,270 --> 00:11:08,070 S6: the nature of the Christian life, we think it's kind 229 00:11:08,070 --> 00:11:11,270 S6: of Lone Ranger Christianity. It's me and Jesus. It's actually 230 00:11:11,510 --> 00:11:14,670 S6: us in the church. It's it's God, it's Christ in 231 00:11:14,670 --> 00:11:17,990 S6: the church together in community. We're designed for community. We 232 00:11:17,990 --> 00:11:20,870 S6: need community. And so we need to have brothers and 233 00:11:20,870 --> 00:11:23,470 S6: sisters in our lives that can point out those things, 234 00:11:23,470 --> 00:11:26,910 S6: to have honest conversations who love, love, love us enough 235 00:11:26,910 --> 00:11:29,470 S6: to confront us, who love us enough to tell us 236 00:11:29,470 --> 00:11:32,270 S6: the truth, even when that truth is sometimes hard to hear. 237 00:11:32,390 --> 00:11:35,270 S6: And so that's even what my especially with me being 238 00:11:35,270 --> 00:11:37,310 S6: on social media, but also kind of just being in 239 00:11:37,350 --> 00:11:40,390 S6: the public square in general. Um, I had good friends, 240 00:11:40,390 --> 00:11:42,469 S6: brothers in Christ say, hey, I don't know if this 241 00:11:42,470 --> 00:11:44,470 S6: is actually as good for you as you might think 242 00:11:44,470 --> 00:11:46,630 S6: it is or you think you need to do this, 243 00:11:46,630 --> 00:11:48,990 S6: but it's not actually as helpful. I'm seeing some of 244 00:11:48,990 --> 00:11:51,420 S6: these effects and I already had the conviction of the 245 00:11:51,420 --> 00:11:53,340 S6: Holy Spirit as well. And so it's kind of a 246 00:11:53,340 --> 00:11:55,860 S6: multi-pronged thing. It's not just a decision you make, but 247 00:11:55,860 --> 00:11:58,860 S6: actually one that's done in community with people who love 248 00:11:58,860 --> 00:12:00,900 S6: you enough to tell you the truth. 249 00:12:01,179 --> 00:12:03,660 S3: Jason Thacker, our guest right now, you were the lead 250 00:12:03,660 --> 00:12:06,819 S3: author on a great resource that your team over at 251 00:12:06,860 --> 00:12:10,219 S3: the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission has put together for 252 00:12:10,220 --> 00:12:14,020 S3: Christian ministry in the Age of Artificial Intelligence. I'm looking 253 00:12:14,020 --> 00:12:16,740 S3: through this, and your team has put together a number 254 00:12:16,740 --> 00:12:20,700 S3: of scenarios that can commonly pop up. If they haven't already, 255 00:12:20,700 --> 00:12:24,820 S3: they may in the church setting. One of them deals 256 00:12:24,820 --> 00:12:28,140 S3: with using AI. There's a let's say there's a long 257 00:12:28,179 --> 00:12:31,100 S3: waiting list to, to get counseling or to receive some 258 00:12:31,100 --> 00:12:34,980 S3: sort of pastoral services. How about the use of AI 259 00:12:35,140 --> 00:12:37,460 S3: and kind of a chatbot that can help you work 260 00:12:37,460 --> 00:12:40,420 S3: through in a counseling type setting? Talk a little bit 261 00:12:40,420 --> 00:12:41,459 S3: more about that one. 262 00:12:41,980 --> 00:12:44,100 S6: Yeah, this is one that we see come up. Many 263 00:12:44,100 --> 00:12:47,580 S6: pastors have been asking about this, counseling organizations and more. 264 00:12:47,820 --> 00:12:52,050 S6: I'm deeply troubled by this trend for a number of reasons. One, 265 00:12:52,050 --> 00:12:55,329 S6: it's not personal. These machines don't understand you. They don't 266 00:12:55,330 --> 00:12:57,809 S6: know you. They're not a person. They're not a subject 267 00:12:57,809 --> 00:13:00,449 S6: like you and I. And we're designed and created for 268 00:13:00,490 --> 00:13:03,490 S6: that community. I think sometimes we're trying to make something 269 00:13:03,490 --> 00:13:08,170 S6: very efficient that is inherently inefficient. I mean, relationships are messy. 270 00:13:08,210 --> 00:13:10,490 S6: We all know that they take time. It's not like 271 00:13:10,490 --> 00:13:13,570 S6: you can just unfollow some, you know, some difficult people 272 00:13:13,570 --> 00:13:15,970 S6: in real life. You can maybe do that online. You 273 00:13:15,970 --> 00:13:19,410 S6: can do that through social media, right? But relationships are 274 00:13:19,410 --> 00:13:23,569 S6: time consuming. They're messy. They're, um, they're just difficult at times, 275 00:13:23,570 --> 00:13:26,130 S6: but they're also life giving and beautiful and what we're 276 00:13:26,130 --> 00:13:29,489 S6: created and designed for. So the trend to see maybe 277 00:13:29,530 --> 00:13:32,570 S6: getting some kind of counseling or navigating some type of 278 00:13:32,570 --> 00:13:37,569 S6: issue utilizing artificial intelligence, I think unnecessarily blurs the line 279 00:13:37,770 --> 00:13:40,650 S6: between what it means to be human in an age 280 00:13:40,650 --> 00:13:43,569 S6: of machines. These are machines. They're objects. They're not like 281 00:13:43,610 --> 00:13:45,850 S6: you and I. We need one another, and we need 282 00:13:45,850 --> 00:13:49,480 S6: somebody who can empathize with us to understand who we are, 283 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:52,960 S6: to understand the temptations that we face. And so I'm 284 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:55,760 S6: deeply troubled by some of that trend, but I understand 285 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:58,439 S6: the draw for it to say, well, it's better than nothing. 286 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:00,679 S6: But I also don't think it's actually very good for us. 287 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:03,160 S6: And it's deep. It's forming us again in some really, 288 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:07,640 S6: really ungodly ways and very dehumanizing ways. I think as well. 289 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:10,320 S7: You know, one of the things that's most dehumanizing, that's hilarious. 290 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:14,000 S5: To me is how ChatGPT or whatever platform you're on 291 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:17,120 S5: affirms every question you have. And I finally gave a 292 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:20,040 S5: prompt to it saying, quit affirming me and I'll be 293 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:22,240 S5: honest with you, there's a dopamine hit when you get 294 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:26,080 S5: affirm by anything, including AI. It's a bizarre effect on 295 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:27,080 S5: the mind, isn't it? 296 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:29,320 S6: It really is. I mean, we see this on social 297 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,560 S6: media every day. There are countless studies about likes and 298 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:36,080 S6: dislikes and the emotional kind of appeal. And companies know 299 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:40,280 S6: this and they, they use this to put, put, put 300 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:43,560 S6: forth products and to advertise and to make money. We 301 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:46,160 S6: see that, especially with AI, is that it it often 302 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:49,270 S6: becomes just a kind of mirror. It's just reflecting us 303 00:14:49,270 --> 00:14:52,790 S6: back to ourselves and kind of in that sense of self-affirmation. 304 00:14:52,790 --> 00:14:56,150 S6: But real relationships are going to confront you. They're going 305 00:14:56,150 --> 00:14:58,830 S6: to love you enough to tell you the truth and 306 00:14:58,830 --> 00:15:00,390 S6: to push back and to say, I don't think you 307 00:15:00,430 --> 00:15:02,750 S6: got that right. And that's the thing with AI. It's 308 00:15:02,750 --> 00:15:04,790 S6: funny when you say, hey, you got that wrong. It's like, oh, 309 00:15:04,830 --> 00:15:07,790 S6: I'm so sorry. I got that wrong. Ironically, it's not 310 00:15:07,790 --> 00:15:10,350 S6: an I. It didn't get anything wrong in that sense. 311 00:15:10,350 --> 00:15:12,350 S6: It's not a person like you and I, it's just 312 00:15:12,350 --> 00:15:15,110 S6: a machine and it's just reflecting those things back. So 313 00:15:15,110 --> 00:15:17,550 S6: it becomes kind of a, a loop in many ways, 314 00:15:17,550 --> 00:15:21,070 S6: just putting back, giving us back what we've already given it. 315 00:15:21,070 --> 00:15:23,590 S6: And I think that's very, it's not very helpful, especially 316 00:15:23,590 --> 00:15:25,550 S6: in terms of pursuit of wisdom and virtue. 317 00:15:25,590 --> 00:15:27,870 S5: Yeah. Go get a cup of coffee with a friend. 318 00:15:28,510 --> 00:15:30,750 S5: Go get a cup of coffee with a friend. Boy, 319 00:15:30,750 --> 00:15:32,790 S5: have we got a tool. This is maybe one of 320 00:15:32,790 --> 00:15:35,630 S5: the best little AI tools I've seen in how to 321 00:15:35,630 --> 00:15:38,750 S5: navigate this world. The work of our hands. Isn't this great, Ali? 322 00:15:38,790 --> 00:15:41,270 S3: It is. This is going to be a great tool 323 00:15:41,270 --> 00:15:45,590 S3: specifically for those who are in ministry settings in any capacity. 324 00:15:45,630 --> 00:15:48,540 S3: Maybe you're a pastor. Maybe you work on a church staff, 325 00:15:48,540 --> 00:15:50,820 S3: or you just want to learn more about this. We 326 00:15:50,820 --> 00:15:53,140 S3: have this for you. It's a, it's a, it's in 327 00:15:53,140 --> 00:15:59,460 S3: a PDF format. Just text the word Jason to (800) 555-7898. 328 00:15:59,500 --> 00:16:05,780 S3: Our guest today, Jason Thacker. Just text Jason to (800) 555-7898. 329 00:16:05,820 --> 00:16:08,700 S3: Then make sure you get this resource. Christian Ministry in 330 00:16:08,700 --> 00:16:09,740 S3: the age of AI. 331 00:16:10,580 --> 00:16:13,540 S1: You're listening to Carl and Cru on Moody Radio. 332 00:16:15,660 --> 00:16:19,220 S5: Okay. Want to invite you into something you've probably never 333 00:16:19,220 --> 00:16:22,780 S5: been invited into. Boom Cru want to invite you into 334 00:16:22,820 --> 00:16:26,500 S5: a meeting that we're having tomorrow after the show. Now, 335 00:16:26,500 --> 00:16:30,260 S5: we can't have you there live, but we have a 336 00:16:30,660 --> 00:16:33,980 S5: we have a big meeting tomorrow. It's called a war room. Now, 337 00:16:33,980 --> 00:16:37,380 S5: you've probably never been invited into a war room, and 338 00:16:37,380 --> 00:16:39,180 S5: I don't know who came up with that name. It 339 00:16:39,180 --> 00:16:41,180 S5: sounds like an alexm. Tell you the truth. 340 00:16:41,460 --> 00:16:44,580 S3: Do you remember the movie that was really popular a 341 00:16:44,580 --> 00:16:45,820 S3: couple years ago? That's right. 342 00:16:46,020 --> 00:16:46,740 S5: That just dawned on me. 343 00:16:46,780 --> 00:16:49,220 S3: That's where a lot of people, their mind probably goes. 344 00:16:49,260 --> 00:16:50,780 S3: At least in Christian settings. 345 00:16:50,940 --> 00:16:53,180 S5: Well, I'll tell you, there's there's some truth in that 346 00:16:53,180 --> 00:16:56,620 S5: because we really do pray, Lord, give us direction on this. 347 00:16:56,860 --> 00:16:58,380 S5: And what we do in a war room is we 348 00:16:58,380 --> 00:17:02,900 S5: have a strategy session and we start forecasting weeks, sometimes 349 00:17:02,900 --> 00:17:05,940 S5: months out in advance of what are we going to 350 00:17:05,940 --> 00:17:08,379 S5: be talking about here? And we don't want to do 351 00:17:08,380 --> 00:17:11,460 S5: this in a vacuum. And we benefit so greatly from 352 00:17:11,460 --> 00:17:14,380 S5: having you weigh in on it. So here's our invitation 353 00:17:14,380 --> 00:17:16,660 S5: right now. We're going to spend a few minutes here 354 00:17:17,380 --> 00:17:21,419 S5: asking you a very important question that's going to shape 355 00:17:21,420 --> 00:17:24,900 S5: this program. If you've ever wondered, do I have a 356 00:17:24,940 --> 00:17:28,020 S5: say in what we're talking about around here? Oh boy. 357 00:17:28,060 --> 00:17:29,580 S5: Do you. And the time is now. 358 00:17:29,619 --> 00:17:31,500 S3: Yeah. We want to hear from you. When you think 359 00:17:31,500 --> 00:17:34,980 S3: about your listening, Moody radio could be Carling Cru or 360 00:17:34,980 --> 00:17:37,540 S3: any other show throughout the day. What topic have you 361 00:17:37,540 --> 00:17:41,780 S3: most benefited from hearing about on Moody Radio? You can 362 00:17:41,780 --> 00:17:43,859 S3: give us a call or a text on this. What 363 00:17:43,859 --> 00:17:46,370 S3: do you remember that you heard and going, okay, that 364 00:17:46,369 --> 00:17:49,369 S3: was particularly helpful. Think about the topic, think about maybe 365 00:17:49,369 --> 00:17:52,170 S3: it's a particular guest. Give us your feedback on this. 366 00:17:52,170 --> 00:17:58,649 S3: 800 555 7898 (800) 555-7898. 367 00:17:58,690 --> 00:18:00,969 S5: The reason we want to open up phones today on 368 00:18:00,970 --> 00:18:04,170 S5: this one is because some of you can't communicate the 369 00:18:04,170 --> 00:18:07,730 S5: emotion behind it and the story behind it, without calling 370 00:18:07,730 --> 00:18:09,730 S5: in and saying, hey, this is what it's done in 371 00:18:09,730 --> 00:18:14,410 S5: my life. So what is that topic you've most benefited 372 00:18:14,410 --> 00:18:18,890 S5: from hearing about on Moody Radio? Give us a call 373 00:18:18,890 --> 00:18:23,530 S5: or text (800) 555-7898. 374 00:18:23,890 --> 00:18:26,970 S1: He's a sports fanatic with a stat for anything you 375 00:18:26,970 --> 00:18:31,210 S1: can think of. Young Thunder is in the crew. It's 376 00:18:31,210 --> 00:18:33,490 S1: curl and crew on Moody Radio. 377 00:18:33,930 --> 00:18:36,890 S5: Scotland crew, and we're inviting you into what we call 378 00:18:36,890 --> 00:18:40,050 S5: our war room. And the beauty of this war room 379 00:18:40,050 --> 00:18:42,530 S5: is it's a strategy session. We sit down with our 380 00:18:42,530 --> 00:18:46,480 S5: whole team. We bring in Shauna, our midday host, and 381 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:49,000 S5: we bring in a team of folks and we just say, Lord, 382 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,240 S5: what would you have us cover in the weeks and 383 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:54,639 S5: months to come? It's a very important time. One of 384 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,199 S5: the things that I noticed with my good friend Janet Parshall, 385 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:00,800 S5: and I'm seeing it here, is spiritual warfare is commonly 386 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:02,400 S5: on deck for her. You know what I mean? 387 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,600 S3: Yes. That's one that she covers often. That tends to 388 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,199 S3: be a high interest topic when we cover it as well. 389 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:10,359 S5: Yeah. Let's go to the phone lines. Who do we have? Ali. 390 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,600 S3: We've got Hillary calling in this morning from Florida. Hillary, 391 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:16,280 S3: what is something what topic have you most benefited from 392 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:17,720 S3: hearing about on Moody Radio? 393 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:21,240 S8: Yes. So this is one of the topics is just 394 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,320 S8: like how to be bold in generation, right? In times 395 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:26,600 S8: of crisis and a time of transition, a time where 396 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:30,639 S8: we've never seen before. Um, and it's just, yeah, standing 397 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:34,080 S8: up for bold as being unapologetically, you know what? God's 398 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:36,760 S8: called us to be the light of this world. So yeah, 399 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:39,600 S8: I stand on that as a young person. 400 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:42,760 S5: Sure. How how long have you been following Jesus, Hillary? 401 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:43,590 S5: How many years? 402 00:19:46,390 --> 00:19:48,909 S8: I was saved when I was like 18, right after 403 00:19:48,910 --> 00:19:49,510 S8: high school. 404 00:19:49,990 --> 00:19:51,149 S5: Okay. That is awesome. 405 00:19:51,190 --> 00:19:53,110 S8: So right now I'm like, yes. 406 00:19:54,070 --> 00:19:57,390 S5: That's that's great. Um, I got to tell you, Hillary, 407 00:19:57,390 --> 00:20:00,030 S5: that is right on. And the reason that I think 408 00:20:00,070 --> 00:20:03,229 S5: it's you're probably tip of the iceberg is in a 409 00:20:03,230 --> 00:20:07,310 S5: post-Christian nation, it's a little different. It's a little different. 410 00:20:07,350 --> 00:20:09,310 S5: And I appreciate your heart on that one. How to 411 00:20:09,310 --> 00:20:12,150 S5: be bold in this generation. What a great topic, right? 412 00:20:12,430 --> 00:20:16,710 S3: Absolutely. I think we've got another caller, Dennis from Massachusetts. 413 00:20:16,750 --> 00:20:19,750 S3: Go ahead. What is that topic that you've most benefited 414 00:20:19,750 --> 00:20:21,310 S3: from hearing about on Moody Radio? 415 00:20:23,830 --> 00:20:24,830 S9: Hi. Can you hear me okay. 416 00:20:24,869 --> 00:20:26,350 S3: Yep. We've got you. Go ahead. Dennis. 417 00:20:27,670 --> 00:20:30,430 S9: All right. I'm trying to get rid of the Bluetooth thing, but. Well, 418 00:20:31,070 --> 00:20:33,510 S9: thank you for everything. One morning I tuned in a 419 00:20:33,590 --> 00:20:37,550 S9: while back, and Carl and Ellie were talking about. Uh, James, 420 00:20:37,710 --> 00:20:41,390 S9: you adulterous people. You know, what were you and Carl? 421 00:20:41,430 --> 00:20:43,379 S9: You kept emphasizing, you know, what are you in the 422 00:20:43,380 --> 00:20:47,260 S9: sheets with? Yeah. What are you partnering up with? Yeah. Uh, 423 00:20:47,300 --> 00:20:50,780 S9: and it changed everything. Uh, it helped me realize, uh, 424 00:20:50,780 --> 00:20:53,659 S9: through prayer that day that I was still partnering up 425 00:20:53,660 --> 00:20:56,180 S9: with some false idols. I had some things between me 426 00:20:56,180 --> 00:20:59,180 S9: and the Lord that I couldn't get to surrender, couldn't 427 00:20:59,180 --> 00:21:01,460 S9: get to those. And I had to get on my 428 00:21:01,460 --> 00:21:03,340 S9: knees that morning and ask God to take them away. 429 00:21:03,780 --> 00:21:04,300 S5: Yeah. 430 00:21:04,340 --> 00:21:07,700 S9: Uh, you know, little things, subtle things like, you know, 431 00:21:07,740 --> 00:21:10,939 S9: the love of my family. Putting that before God, the 432 00:21:10,940 --> 00:21:14,420 S9: love of my grandchildren, you know, uh, trying to count 433 00:21:14,420 --> 00:21:16,740 S9: on other people to provide what only the Lord was 434 00:21:16,740 --> 00:21:21,060 S9: going to provide for me. Uh, in terms of opening doors. 435 00:21:21,100 --> 00:21:24,820 S9: So I was still partnering with those things subtly. And 436 00:21:24,820 --> 00:21:27,340 S9: you brought that to my attention that morning. I don't 437 00:21:27,340 --> 00:21:28,980 S9: know if you remember that day or not, but you 438 00:21:28,980 --> 00:21:32,220 S9: spent a lot of time in James that was adulterous people. 439 00:21:32,260 --> 00:21:33,340 S5: Yeah, that was weird. 440 00:21:33,380 --> 00:21:34,020 S9: You kept saying. 441 00:21:34,060 --> 00:21:36,460 S5: Yeah, well, the reason I say that is I'm not 442 00:21:36,460 --> 00:21:39,260 S5: attempting to be crass. I'm attempting to be biblical. But 443 00:21:39,300 --> 00:21:43,530 S5: adulterous people means that we are sleeping around on God. Denis. 444 00:21:43,850 --> 00:21:45,650 S5: I mean, that's what it means. 445 00:21:45,690 --> 00:21:49,210 S2: That's a really important, I think. Actually, it's not crass 446 00:21:49,210 --> 00:21:51,770 S2: at all. This is exactly how it's meant to be 447 00:21:51,770 --> 00:21:56,610 S2: talked about because we, we kind of underestimate the effect 448 00:21:56,609 --> 00:21:58,889 S2: of even good things in our life sometimes when we 449 00:21:58,890 --> 00:22:01,130 S2: put them before God. Ah, it's just this. It's just 450 00:22:01,130 --> 00:22:02,650 S2: that it's not that big a deal. When we think 451 00:22:02,650 --> 00:22:05,570 S2: about it in the context of, no, I'm cheating on 452 00:22:05,570 --> 00:22:09,850 S2: God with these things. It changes the whole perspective and 453 00:22:09,850 --> 00:22:11,690 S2: allows you to look at them for how they really are. 454 00:22:11,730 --> 00:22:14,730 S5: Yeah. And it's a, it's a, it's a striking metaphor, 455 00:22:14,770 --> 00:22:17,370 S5: isn't it? You adulterous people, if you boil it down, 456 00:22:17,369 --> 00:22:20,450 S5: you go. Hold it. Who's in the sheets with me here? 457 00:22:20,450 --> 00:22:23,130 S5: And I know that that could sound crass, but it's 458 00:22:23,130 --> 00:22:24,450 S5: not crass, is it, Ali? 459 00:22:24,490 --> 00:22:27,129 S3: No. I mean, when you think about so much of Scripture, 460 00:22:27,130 --> 00:22:31,050 S3: how the that was the analogy that was often used 461 00:22:31,050 --> 00:22:34,250 S3: to talk about how God's people were unfaithful. And it 462 00:22:34,250 --> 00:22:36,730 S3: gets way more graphic than that if you. 463 00:22:36,890 --> 00:22:39,690 S5: Yeah, yeah. Some places we can't even go with that 464 00:22:39,690 --> 00:22:40,490 S5: little ear. earwigs. 465 00:22:40,490 --> 00:22:41,330 S3: Absolutely. 466 00:22:41,369 --> 00:22:44,130 S5: Yeah. Really good feedback here. And we're getting a lot 467 00:22:44,170 --> 00:22:46,570 S5: of text messages in. Here's what we're going to do. 468 00:22:46,770 --> 00:22:49,250 S5: We're going to collate all this feedback. And this is 469 00:22:49,250 --> 00:22:50,810 S5: really going to help us in War room. But I 470 00:22:50,810 --> 00:22:53,290 S5: love hearing the energy when you call in as well. 471 00:22:53,290 --> 00:22:56,850 S5: So here's the question. We're going into a war room 472 00:22:56,850 --> 00:23:01,570 S5: here soon where we strategize topics. And by the way, 473 00:23:01,570 --> 00:23:05,650 S5: let's put idolatry and sleeping around on God. I know 474 00:23:05,650 --> 00:23:08,290 S5: that sounds crazy for me to even say right there. 475 00:23:08,290 --> 00:23:10,969 S5: I remember the first time I used that analogy preaching 476 00:23:10,970 --> 00:23:15,369 S5: at a church or church in Alaska, and I remember 477 00:23:15,369 --> 00:23:18,290 S5: how the Spirit of God used that so powerfully, so 478 00:23:18,290 --> 00:23:24,450 S5: graphically as the text wants it to. And we're grateful 479 00:23:24,450 --> 00:23:26,690 S5: for that passion, Dennis, that you have for this. And 480 00:23:26,690 --> 00:23:29,449 S5: Hillary in Florida. Great, great feedback here. 481 00:23:30,170 --> 00:23:33,169 S1: Want to hear that? Again, just download the Curl and 482 00:23:33,170 --> 00:23:35,689 S1: Crew podcast wherever you like to stream. 483 00:23:37,170 --> 00:23:40,840 S5: When we look at the Middle East, It can be unnerving. 484 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,960 S5: This is why we've committed this whole week to end times. 485 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,240 S5: And boy, have we saved one of the best for 486 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,960 S5: near the end of our week here. We're not there yet, guys, 487 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:54,600 S5: but we've got them right now. Sam storms with us. Sam. Uh, 488 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:58,000 S5: you have written a ton. I know you've got a 489 00:23:58,000 --> 00:23:59,960 S5: new book. By the way. How's your book coming along 490 00:23:59,960 --> 00:24:01,120 S5: on the Holy Spirit? 491 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:03,880 S10: Well, it's supposed to be released later this year. I 492 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:06,000 S10: finished it and did all the edits, and I'm really 493 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:09,080 S10: excited about it. It's called 40 questions about the Holy Spirit. 494 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:09,560 S2: Oh. 495 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,680 S5: I can't wait. That's going to be thrilling. Okay. We 496 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:14,560 S5: turn our eyes toward the Middle East. We see what's 497 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,440 S5: going on in Iran, which is Persia, which is in 498 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:21,960 S5: the Ezekiel. It's Islam, which is that region to the north. 499 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,160 S5: They have been a superpower that actually has freaked out 500 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:30,399 S5: their neighbors, even fellow Islamic states. What is going on 501 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,240 S5: from your vantage point? And is there anything that we 502 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:37,000 S5: see happening there that reflects any prophecy at all? I'm 503 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,030 S5: not trying to cram something into place here though. Sam. 504 00:24:40,350 --> 00:24:42,830 S10: That is a very important question. It's a very pressing question. 505 00:24:42,830 --> 00:24:45,389 S10: I think the response of most Christians is just just 506 00:24:45,390 --> 00:24:47,669 S10: a knee jerk. Oh, absolutely. Yes. This is all a 507 00:24:47,670 --> 00:24:51,510 S10: fulfillment of biblical prophecy. It may well be. I'm not. 508 00:24:51,670 --> 00:24:54,109 S10: I don't have enough insight into the purposes of God 509 00:24:54,109 --> 00:24:57,590 S10: to make a definitive statement on that, but it's entirely 510 00:24:57,590 --> 00:25:00,470 S10: possible that this is a prelude to the second coming 511 00:25:00,470 --> 00:25:04,270 S10: of Jesus. But again, Jesus warned of wars and rumors 512 00:25:04,270 --> 00:25:07,670 S10: of wars. And we've seen this all through history. Yes, people, 513 00:25:07,670 --> 00:25:11,390 S10: nations on the brink of absolute annihilation. And they drew 514 00:25:11,390 --> 00:25:14,110 S10: the same conclusions and they were all wrong. Yeah. So 515 00:25:14,150 --> 00:25:16,910 S10: I've got a little check of caution in my heart 516 00:25:16,910 --> 00:25:19,869 S10: before I make a definitive statement. I, I think that 517 00:25:19,869 --> 00:25:22,830 S10: we need to be careful because unfortunately, as you know, 518 00:25:22,869 --> 00:25:27,070 S10: that kind of end times hysteria can really get people 519 00:25:27,109 --> 00:25:30,350 S10: off base and get them fixated on things that keep 520 00:25:30,350 --> 00:25:32,270 S10: them from the main and the plain of what God 521 00:25:32,270 --> 00:25:33,230 S10: calls us to do. 522 00:25:33,270 --> 00:25:35,389 S5: Amen. I love that. That's what I love about you. 523 00:25:35,390 --> 00:25:37,230 S5: So we can keep an eye on what's going on there, 524 00:25:37,230 --> 00:25:41,740 S5: but not get fixated on it. I'm thinking 70s heavy, late, 525 00:25:41,740 --> 00:25:45,260 S5: great planet earth. Hal Lindsey. Yeah. And but here's what 526 00:25:45,260 --> 00:25:50,500 S5: is interesting. We have statehood for Israel prior to statehood. 527 00:25:50,500 --> 00:25:53,140 S5: I don't know how they sorted through the prophecies. They 528 00:25:53,140 --> 00:25:56,820 S5: didn't even know that was coming here until this last generation. 529 00:25:57,020 --> 00:25:59,700 S5: So you got State of Israel, and then you got 530 00:25:59,700 --> 00:26:02,740 S5: this spiked rise of anti-Semitism. And tell you the thing 531 00:26:02,740 --> 00:26:04,980 S5: that freaks me out here, not in a scary way, 532 00:26:04,980 --> 00:26:08,459 S5: but just a wow, shocking way. First time in the 533 00:26:08,460 --> 00:26:14,420 S5: history of America, we've got 1% more sympathy toward Palestine 534 00:26:14,420 --> 00:26:16,860 S5: than Israel. Does that shock you at all, Sam? 535 00:26:17,700 --> 00:26:23,060 S10: It does. It does. And you're right. The anti-Semitic impulse 536 00:26:23,100 --> 00:26:28,180 S10: is almost inexplicable. I I've asked many people why? What, 537 00:26:28,220 --> 00:26:32,100 S10: what is fueling this? What's going on? And nobody has 538 00:26:32,100 --> 00:26:34,180 S10: an answer. And I the only answer that I can 539 00:26:34,180 --> 00:26:36,659 S10: come up with is that it's Satan who is stirring 540 00:26:36,660 --> 00:26:40,210 S10: up this hatred for these people as a way of 541 00:26:40,210 --> 00:26:44,170 S10: dividing and provoking war. By the way, there's one verse 542 00:26:44,170 --> 00:26:45,929 S10: of scripture I want to make sure I get in 543 00:26:45,930 --> 00:26:49,290 S10: on this episode before we go off. Yeah, because people say, 544 00:26:49,290 --> 00:26:52,090 S10: all right, let's just assume for the sake of argument 545 00:26:52,090 --> 00:26:53,890 S10: that we may well be in the end times, we 546 00:26:53,890 --> 00:26:56,770 S10: may well be near the coming of Jesus. What should 547 00:26:56,770 --> 00:27:00,290 S10: we do? Listen to what Peter says in first Peter four, 548 00:27:00,330 --> 00:27:03,609 S10: verse seven. The end of all things is at hand. 549 00:27:03,890 --> 00:27:05,609 S10: Right there. There he sees it. The end of all 550 00:27:05,609 --> 00:27:08,970 S10: things is at hand. Therefore run to the hills, quit 551 00:27:08,970 --> 00:27:12,170 S10: your job, put on a white robe, you know. 552 00:27:12,210 --> 00:27:13,770 S5: Get a bunker in North Dakota. 553 00:27:13,810 --> 00:27:16,930 S10: Get a bunker separate, but, you know, load up on 554 00:27:16,930 --> 00:27:20,090 S10: canned goods. Go down into your basement. Now listen to 555 00:27:20,090 --> 00:27:22,930 S10: what he says. The end of all things is at hand. Therefore, 556 00:27:23,290 --> 00:27:26,930 S10: be self-controlled and sober minded for the sake of your prayers. 557 00:27:27,090 --> 00:27:30,290 S10: And above all, keep loving one another earnestly. Since love 558 00:27:30,290 --> 00:27:33,650 S10: covers a multitude of sins, show hospitality to one another 559 00:27:33,850 --> 00:27:38,280 S10: as stewards of God's varied grace. I mean, how contrary 560 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,680 S10: is that to the mindset of so many today? They 561 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,200 S10: freak out when they think about the coming of Jesus 562 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,360 S10: and Peter saying, look, I was expecting him in my lifetime. 563 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,280 S10: It didn't happen, but we are expecting him in our lifetimes. 564 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,119 S10: It may happen. What are we to do? 565 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:53,240 S5: I got to tell you, that is the verse for 566 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,440 S5: our week right there. That's the verse you can postulate 567 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,800 S5: and cogitate on this stuff all day long, but if 568 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,119 S5: you don't come back, what's that reference again, Sam. 569 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:05,919 S10: First Peter, chapter four, verses seven through nine. 570 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,959 S5: Wow. It says it all right there, doesn't it? 571 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,800 S10: It does, it does. And you know, for from coming 572 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,040 S10: from a man who constantly stuck his foot in his mouth. Uh, 573 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,240 S10: Peter here writing under the inspiration of the spirit is 574 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:23,920 S10: setting people straight. I just wish people would maintain their sanity, 575 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:28,280 S10: their spiritual sanity. Self-Control, he says, sober minded. That's so 576 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,439 S10: contrary to what we see in so many sectors of 577 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:31,440 S10: the Christian world. 578 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:33,960 S5: Yeah, I guess I could say, all right, show's over. 579 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:35,440 S5: We're going to shut her down for the day and 580 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,679 S5: put this on loop. Repeat. But let's go after a 581 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:39,959 S5: little bit more because we do see things. And I 582 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:44,200 S5: think I've heard it said many times that we live 583 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,320 S5: with newspaper or news in one hand and the Word 584 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:51,040 S5: of God in the other, and this is a beautiful 585 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,960 S5: opportunity for us to look and see what's the benefit 586 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,560 S5: of processing what's happening in the Middle East without ignoring 587 00:28:58,560 --> 00:28:59,520 S5: it altogether? 588 00:28:59,960 --> 00:29:02,800 S10: Yeah, I think the benefit is that we are alert. 589 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,840 S10: I mean, all through the Gospels, and Jesus himself told 590 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:07,600 S10: us to be alert, for we know not when the 591 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,600 S10: time is coming. So I think it's just an attitude 592 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:14,840 S10: of alertness, of readiness, of looking at our lives and saying, 593 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,400 S10: all right, if the Lord were to come today or 594 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,720 S10: next week, in what condition would he find me in 595 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:22,880 S10: my life and my use of money and how I'm 596 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,640 S10: relating to my spouse and my kids and my friends. 597 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,600 S10: So I think it's the readiness, the alertness, without the 598 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,880 S10: hysteria of trying to set a date like, oh, it's 599 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,590 S10: got to happen, you know, within seven years or three 600 00:29:35,590 --> 00:29:39,910 S10: years or whatever, or three months, that just fuels hysteria 601 00:29:39,910 --> 00:29:44,430 S10: and it turns us into very irresponsible people. Instead say, look, 602 00:29:44,470 --> 00:29:47,510 S10: I may well be in that generation when I will 603 00:29:47,510 --> 00:29:49,310 S10: see the Lord return in the heavens, and I won't 604 00:29:49,310 --> 00:29:52,150 S10: even have to undergo physical death, which wouldn't that be wonderful? 605 00:29:52,430 --> 00:29:55,870 S10: We caught up in the rapture, but the mindset for 606 00:29:55,910 --> 00:29:59,870 S10: that is all right. Be holy. Be righteous. I love 607 00:29:59,870 --> 00:30:02,469 S10: the way Martin Luther, the Protestant reformer, once put it, 608 00:30:02,470 --> 00:30:04,750 S10: a very famous saying. He said, if I knew for 609 00:30:04,750 --> 00:30:07,790 S10: certain that Jesus was coming back next week, I'd plant 610 00:30:07,790 --> 00:30:12,030 S10: a tree today. This point is the certainty. The expectation 611 00:30:12,030 --> 00:30:16,190 S10: of the return of Christ does not alleviate or somehow 612 00:30:16,190 --> 00:30:19,790 S10: undermine my responsibility to make life good in the present. 613 00:30:20,030 --> 00:30:23,230 S5: Yeah, I love that. That's a powerhouse quote. Okay, coming 614 00:30:23,230 --> 00:30:25,670 S5: up here, I'm going to get into the weeds. We're 615 00:30:25,670 --> 00:30:29,790 S5: going to talk about the difference between a dispensational theology, 616 00:30:29,790 --> 00:30:34,180 S5: covenant theology, how great people who are all children of God, 617 00:30:34,340 --> 00:30:36,500 S5: can have a different viewpoint. And one of the things 618 00:30:36,500 --> 00:30:38,300 S5: we love to do here with Carl and crew is 619 00:30:38,300 --> 00:30:40,900 S5: share viewpoints. Coming up more with Sam Storms. 620 00:30:41,620 --> 00:30:45,620 S1: Walking closer to Jesus every day. You're listening to Carl 621 00:30:45,620 --> 00:30:46,220 S1: and crew. 622 00:30:47,580 --> 00:30:51,020 S5: We're talking in times this week. And, uh, Sam storms 623 00:30:51,020 --> 00:30:54,660 S5: with me right now and Wayne Grudem on yesterday. Sam. 624 00:30:54,900 --> 00:30:56,900 S10: Oh, good. My dear friend Wayne Grudem. 625 00:30:56,940 --> 00:30:59,380 S5: I love him. He's been a great friend of mine 626 00:30:59,380 --> 00:31:03,220 S5: for years. And what a he's battling so well through Parkinson's. 627 00:31:03,220 --> 00:31:05,940 S5: He's just a warrior. Um, here's what I want to 628 00:31:05,940 --> 00:31:08,820 S5: tackle and I want to preface it by this. There's 629 00:31:08,820 --> 00:31:11,180 S5: a lot of people. It strikes me that people that 630 00:31:11,180 --> 00:31:14,980 S5: are younger in faith are younger in positions, are way 631 00:31:14,980 --> 00:31:18,060 S5: more contentious than people that are seasoned in these things. 632 00:31:18,060 --> 00:31:20,300 S5: It seems like the older guys that have walked the 633 00:31:20,300 --> 00:31:24,540 S5: path with Jesus don't get hung up on theological positions 634 00:31:24,540 --> 00:31:28,660 S5: where it divides fellowship. But what is the difference between 635 00:31:28,900 --> 00:31:34,210 S5: dispensational theology and covenant Theology. And where can we meet 636 00:31:34,210 --> 00:31:35,250 S5: on these things? 637 00:31:35,570 --> 00:31:39,050 S10: Well, as you know, I got my seminary education at Dallas, 638 00:31:39,050 --> 00:31:41,170 S10: and I loved Dallas. So in spite of what I'm 639 00:31:41,170 --> 00:31:43,890 S10: about to say, I wouldn't have done it any other way. 640 00:31:43,930 --> 00:31:46,730 S10: I had great professors, but my professors were the who's 641 00:31:46,730 --> 00:31:51,690 S10: who of dispensationalism. John Walvoord Dwight Pentecost and I had 642 00:31:51,690 --> 00:31:55,810 S10: several courses from Charles Ryrie and Charles Ryrie always taught 643 00:31:55,810 --> 00:31:57,570 S10: us and wrote it in his book. He's now with 644 00:31:57,570 --> 00:32:00,250 S10: the Lord, by the way, that the key element of 645 00:32:00,250 --> 00:32:04,370 S10: dispensationalism is a distinction between Israel and the church, that 646 00:32:04,370 --> 00:32:08,370 S10: God has two purposes. Uh, one for his earthly people Israel, 647 00:32:08,370 --> 00:32:11,570 S10: one for his heavenly people, the church, and never the 648 00:32:11,570 --> 00:32:15,170 S10: twain shall meet. I don't see that in Scripture. I 649 00:32:15,170 --> 00:32:17,730 S10: see in Scripture that there's one people of God that 650 00:32:17,730 --> 00:32:23,170 S10: consists of believing ethnic Jews and believing ethnic Gentiles. So 651 00:32:23,170 --> 00:32:26,530 S10: for example, in Romans 11, we read about this, this 652 00:32:26,530 --> 00:32:30,290 S10: metaphor of the the olive tree, and he talks about 653 00:32:30,290 --> 00:32:34,280 S10: natural branches being broken off in unnatural branches being grafted in. 654 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:36,920 S10: And his point is, there's only one olive tree. The 655 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,080 S10: olive tree represents the people of God of all ages, 656 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:44,120 S10: in which are found believing Jews like the apostle Paul himself, 657 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,960 S10: who was writing it, in which our believing Gentiles like 658 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,320 S10: you and me. And the point is, God didn't uproot 659 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:52,080 S10: the tree. He didn't pull it out of the ground, 660 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:54,959 S10: cast it aside, and plant a new tree called the church. 661 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,120 S10: The church is simply the people of God, of every 662 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,720 S10: ethnicity that have been grafted into Israel, and now share 663 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:05,000 S10: in the promises that were made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 664 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:09,360 S10: So that is the fundamental difference is, is there a 665 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,440 S10: rigid distinction between Israel and the church that called for 666 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:16,600 S10: two different covenants and two different inheritances or promises? Or 667 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:20,840 S10: is there one people of God comprised of multiple ethnicities 668 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,440 S10: who center around Jesus, not their ethnicity? In other words, 669 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,760 S10: I think the the key in the New Testament is 670 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,760 S10: blood and DNA doesn't matter anymore. The only thing that 671 00:33:30,830 --> 00:33:34,550 S10: matters is faith in Christ. He's the true seed of 672 00:33:34,550 --> 00:33:37,350 S10: Abraham for whom the promises were intended. So if you're 673 00:33:37,350 --> 00:33:39,910 S10: in Christ by faith, it doesn't matter what the color 674 00:33:39,910 --> 00:33:43,510 S10: of your skin, doesn't matter your ethnic background. You are 675 00:33:43,630 --> 00:33:46,270 S10: a child of Abraham and an heir according to promise. 676 00:33:46,630 --> 00:33:49,990 S5: Okay, so there's a few implications here. One is that 677 00:33:49,990 --> 00:33:54,630 S5: you see now the passages in Matthew 2425 and many 678 00:33:54,630 --> 00:33:59,110 S5: other passages, not as rapture passages, but as judgement passages, 679 00:33:59,110 --> 00:34:03,070 S5: meaning that Christ's followers could and will go. Your position 680 00:34:03,070 --> 00:34:06,870 S5: would be going through the tribulation. Some have pre-trib, rapture, 681 00:34:06,910 --> 00:34:11,630 S5: Mid-trib or post-trib. Here's what I want to spike. We 682 00:34:11,670 --> 00:34:16,270 S5: don't break fellowship just because we have different viewpoints on eschatology. Right, Sam? 683 00:34:16,469 --> 00:34:19,710 S10: Well, we certainly shouldn't. But that's the interesting thing. When 684 00:34:19,710 --> 00:34:22,910 S10: I came out, I graduated from Dallas in about two 685 00:34:22,910 --> 00:34:26,510 S10: years into my pastoral ministry there in Dallas. I came 686 00:34:26,510 --> 00:34:29,710 S10: after studying First Thessalonians. I came out as Post-trib. And 687 00:34:29,710 --> 00:34:32,420 S10: you would have thought that I denied the resurrection of Jesus. 688 00:34:32,700 --> 00:34:37,140 S10: And I find it fascinating and deeply disturbing. And I 689 00:34:37,140 --> 00:34:40,180 S10: know this sounds like an over-the-top exaggeration. I promise you 690 00:34:40,180 --> 00:34:45,060 S10: it isn't. For some Christians, the Pre-tribulation rapture is a 691 00:34:45,060 --> 00:34:48,020 S10: foundational doctrine that is just as important as the deity 692 00:34:48,020 --> 00:34:51,460 S10: of Christ, and the idea that we would have to 693 00:34:51,500 --> 00:34:53,899 S10: go through the judgments that we read about in the 694 00:34:53,900 --> 00:34:57,180 S10: Bible is just so terrifying to them that they hold 695 00:34:57,180 --> 00:34:58,660 S10: to a view that, oh, God's going to get me 696 00:34:58,660 --> 00:35:00,980 S10: out of here first. And I just want to say 697 00:35:00,980 --> 00:35:04,020 S10: to people, stop for just a moment and think how 698 00:35:04,060 --> 00:35:08,140 S10: offensive that is to the Christians imprisoned in North Korea 699 00:35:08,140 --> 00:35:11,780 S10: right now, being the Christians in Iran who are being 700 00:35:11,780 --> 00:35:14,740 S10: beaten and houses being burned to the ground, and people 701 00:35:14,739 --> 00:35:18,540 S10: in certain sectors of India and Indonesia and certain areas 702 00:35:18,540 --> 00:35:21,339 S10: of Africa and Nigeria, where every week we read about 703 00:35:21,340 --> 00:35:26,020 S10: another church being burned to the ground and people being slaughtered. 704 00:35:26,700 --> 00:35:30,580 S10: They have been undergoing Tribulation far worse than anything we 705 00:35:30,580 --> 00:35:33,180 S10: read about in the Bible. And it's for us here 706 00:35:33,180 --> 00:35:35,220 S10: in the West. We live in such a secure place. 707 00:35:35,219 --> 00:35:37,100 S10: We say, well, I'm glad I don't have to go 708 00:35:37,100 --> 00:35:40,859 S10: through that. It's somewhat offensive, at least in my opinion. 709 00:35:41,100 --> 00:35:43,859 S10: When we in the West, who live such comfortable and 710 00:35:43,860 --> 00:35:47,379 S10: peaceful lives, live in constant fear of having to go 711 00:35:47,380 --> 00:35:49,980 S10: through a time of persecution when our brothers and sisters 712 00:35:49,980 --> 00:35:52,180 S10: down through the centuries in other parts of the world, 713 00:35:52,340 --> 00:35:56,500 S10: have suffered far worse. And I just can't imagine their 714 00:35:56,500 --> 00:35:58,980 S10: mindset if they were to hear us talk about, well, 715 00:35:59,219 --> 00:36:01,060 S10: I just hope God gets me out of this mess 716 00:36:01,060 --> 00:36:04,180 S10: here before it gets really bad. They have been suffering 717 00:36:04,180 --> 00:36:10,380 S10: really bad, even unimaginable persecution and slaughter for centuries. So 718 00:36:10,540 --> 00:36:13,540 S10: but we were talking a little bit about why there 719 00:36:13,540 --> 00:36:16,299 S10: is this emphasis on this idea of pre-trib rapture. And 720 00:36:16,300 --> 00:36:19,100 S10: I think basically because and I know this is going 721 00:36:19,140 --> 00:36:22,580 S10: to sound offensive to some, we've become soft in America. 722 00:36:22,580 --> 00:36:26,380 S10: Christianity is soft. The idea that we would be challenged 723 00:36:26,380 --> 00:36:30,009 S10: and persecuted and slandered and even lose our possessions. It 724 00:36:30,010 --> 00:36:33,489 S10: terrifies us. And I think of Hebrews ten where it 725 00:36:33,489 --> 00:36:36,450 S10: says that they reacted joyfully at the confiscation of their 726 00:36:36,450 --> 00:36:39,090 S10: property because they knew they had a better treasure. Yeah. 727 00:36:39,130 --> 00:36:41,930 S10: So I just hope people will kind of recalibrate their 728 00:36:41,930 --> 00:36:44,970 S10: mindset and know that we have been called to suffer 729 00:36:44,969 --> 00:36:48,129 S10: together with Christ, whether it's in a time of tribulation 730 00:36:48,130 --> 00:36:51,370 S10: or just in the daily experience of being a believer. 731 00:36:51,650 --> 00:36:55,490 S10: Instead of thinking this, I just need an escape doctrine. 732 00:36:55,489 --> 00:36:56,810 S10: I need a doctrine that's going to get me out 733 00:36:56,850 --> 00:36:59,969 S10: of here. That's just not the mindset of the scriptures. 734 00:37:00,450 --> 00:37:02,210 S5: It seems to me to Sam, that when we look 735 00:37:02,210 --> 00:37:06,410 S5: at the scriptures, even whatever position you have on tribulation, 736 00:37:06,410 --> 00:37:10,089 S5: wherever you land on this, that there is not. If 737 00:37:10,090 --> 00:37:13,930 S5: you're a biblical, humble child of God, you don't look 738 00:37:13,930 --> 00:37:16,850 S5: at Israel with disdain. We're seeing something on the woke 739 00:37:16,890 --> 00:37:21,570 S5: left and the woke right now. That is bizarre. Sam, 740 00:37:21,570 --> 00:37:27,319 S5: there is a almost a anti-Semitic loathing of this nation. 741 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:31,080 S5: And no matter what your theological position, you still champion 742 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:32,600 S5: the good of these people. 743 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,759 S10: Absolutely. And again, you know, I think all of us 744 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,960 S10: would agree we don't have to endorse everything Israel does. 745 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,280 S10: I don't endorse everything the United States does. 746 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:41,880 S5: Right? 747 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:46,560 S10: But no government, no nation is perfect in its policies 748 00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:48,719 S10: and the way it carries them out. But I do 749 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:54,120 S10: think there's an underlying demonic impulse in this anti-Semitic attitude 750 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,680 S10: that's spreading everywhere. It just absolutely baffles me. And like 751 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:00,279 S10: you said, even on the right, not just the left, 752 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,000 S10: but on the right, people who seem to hold a 753 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:07,799 S10: more biblical worldview oftentimes are yielding to that impulse as well. 754 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,800 S10: And it's just it's just mind blowing to me. I 755 00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:12,280 S10: do not understand it. 756 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:16,760 S5: Yeah. You know, interesting. Sam. We, we do see some 757 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,960 S5: things that we've alluded to, but we can't be fixated 758 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:24,040 S5: on those things. Have you studied Gog and Magog and 759 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:28,070 S5: where do you put that battle? It's obviously prior to 760 00:38:28,390 --> 00:38:31,630 S5: the Armageddon and the great battle, but where do you 761 00:38:31,630 --> 00:38:35,589 S5: put that? And do you see anything happening or stirrings 762 00:38:35,590 --> 00:38:38,990 S5: in Iran that gives us a hint of what may come? 763 00:38:39,390 --> 00:38:42,310 S10: Well, I think the Gog and Magog is imagery for 764 00:38:42,310 --> 00:38:45,469 S10: the nations of the world coming against the people of God. 765 00:38:45,790 --> 00:38:48,750 S10: So I do think there will be a final battle. 766 00:38:48,790 --> 00:38:51,109 S10: I mean, we call it Armageddon. We call it the 767 00:38:51,110 --> 00:38:54,190 S10: last battle. Whatever terminology you want to use in which 768 00:38:54,190 --> 00:38:57,469 S10: the nations of the world will form some sort of 769 00:38:57,510 --> 00:39:01,109 S10: coalition to come against the people of God, talks about 770 00:39:01,110 --> 00:39:05,150 S10: in revelation 20 that Satan is, uh, is motivated to 771 00:39:05,190 --> 00:39:09,790 S10: orchestrate this incredible battle, which of course ends with the 772 00:39:09,790 --> 00:39:12,430 S10: Lord Jesus Christ defeating them all. If you want to 773 00:39:12,430 --> 00:39:16,350 S10: be encouraged, folks, go read revelation 19, which talks about 774 00:39:16,350 --> 00:39:19,549 S10: the coming of Jesus and how he will deal with 775 00:39:19,550 --> 00:39:22,870 S10: all those who stand in opposition to him. So I 776 00:39:22,870 --> 00:39:26,500 S10: don't try to make an identification of Gog and Magog 777 00:39:26,500 --> 00:39:30,500 S10: with any contemporary nations. I think that's a mistake. But 778 00:39:30,500 --> 00:39:33,860 S10: I do think that they represent all nations that are 779 00:39:33,860 --> 00:39:36,540 S10: in opposition to God, the same way that the Bible 780 00:39:36,540 --> 00:39:40,219 S10: uses the word Babylon in revelation. That's just the earthly 781 00:39:40,219 --> 00:39:43,299 S10: nations that stand in opposition to Jesus and seek to 782 00:39:43,340 --> 00:39:45,259 S10: crush his kingdom purposes. 783 00:39:45,820 --> 00:39:50,620 S5: Sam Storms is my guest right now. Sam, as you see, 784 00:39:50,620 --> 00:39:53,259 S5: a lot of the discussion and a lot of the 785 00:39:53,260 --> 00:39:59,020 S5: rancor and growing hatred for Israel and Jewish people. How 786 00:39:59,260 --> 00:40:03,339 S5: should Christ's followers respond to that specifically? 787 00:40:03,940 --> 00:40:05,700 S10: Well, the first thing they need to do is they 788 00:40:05,700 --> 00:40:08,780 S10: need to think about what they deserve, what we all deserve, 789 00:40:08,820 --> 00:40:12,500 S10: apart from God's grace. I am a hell deserving sinner. 790 00:40:12,540 --> 00:40:15,460 S10: You are. All Christians are. And yet that's not what 791 00:40:15,460 --> 00:40:18,540 S10: we get. We get grace, forgiveness, freedom, and eternity in 792 00:40:18,540 --> 00:40:23,060 S10: God's presence. And if that isn't enough to cause you 793 00:40:23,060 --> 00:40:26,969 S10: to temper your anger or deal with the bitterness you 794 00:40:26,969 --> 00:40:29,969 S10: have in your heart toward whether it's Israel or Iran. 795 00:40:30,090 --> 00:40:32,050 S10: I mean, think of I've heard that there are more 796 00:40:32,410 --> 00:40:35,649 S10: conversions happening in Iran and China than perhaps anywhere else 797 00:40:35,690 --> 00:40:38,330 S10: on the face of the earth. Correct. So we just 798 00:40:38,330 --> 00:40:40,730 S10: need to think more deeply about the reality of the 799 00:40:40,770 --> 00:40:43,489 S10: gospel and what God has done for us in Jesus. 800 00:40:43,850 --> 00:40:47,810 S10: And if that doesn't stir your heart to love those 801 00:40:47,810 --> 00:40:50,170 S10: who are now being hated, I don't know what will. 802 00:40:50,210 --> 00:40:53,850 S10: So I think sometimes we just forget the reality of 803 00:40:53,850 --> 00:40:58,170 S10: how amazing grace really is and that we deserve only 804 00:40:58,210 --> 00:41:01,090 S10: death and we're given eternal life. And if that doesn't 805 00:41:01,090 --> 00:41:04,690 S10: move your heart to reach out in love and support 806 00:41:04,690 --> 00:41:08,810 S10: and encouragement to people who are being slaughtered and and persecuted, 807 00:41:08,810 --> 00:41:09,770 S10: I don't know what will. 808 00:41:09,810 --> 00:41:12,730 S5: Yeah, yeah. And I battle with this. I look at news, 809 00:41:12,850 --> 00:41:16,330 S5: I can I can tilt toward political mindset more than 810 00:41:16,370 --> 00:41:19,890 S5: spiritual in a heartbeat. Sam. I'll confess that that's a 811 00:41:19,890 --> 00:41:24,130 S5: real temptation that Satan puts before us every day. There's 812 00:41:24,130 --> 00:41:27,810 S5: a call in our life to be alert, to be ready. 813 00:41:28,010 --> 00:41:30,930 S5: And what causes me real pause. And I've noticed an 814 00:41:30,969 --> 00:41:35,330 S5: amazing repeating of Jesus's words from the sermon on the Mount. 815 00:41:35,330 --> 00:41:37,770 S5: Many will say, Lord, Lord, he's going to say, depart 816 00:41:37,770 --> 00:41:40,089 S5: from me. I never knew you. That Lord, Lord, and 817 00:41:40,090 --> 00:41:43,049 S5: I never knew you is the same words he uses 818 00:41:43,250 --> 00:41:47,650 S5: with the ten bridesmaids. Five were ready, five were not. 819 00:41:47,969 --> 00:41:49,770 S5: That's sobering, isn't it, Sam? 820 00:41:50,010 --> 00:41:53,210 S10: It's more than sobering. It's terrifying. Yeah. That's why we 821 00:41:53,210 --> 00:41:56,370 S10: need to examine our hearts and say, what is my motivation? 822 00:41:56,370 --> 00:41:59,330 S10: Why am I following Jesus? And for what purpose am 823 00:41:59,330 --> 00:42:03,729 S10: I invoking his name? Because here are these individuals who 824 00:42:03,730 --> 00:42:07,770 S10: likely through the power of Satan, are performing miracles and 825 00:42:07,810 --> 00:42:11,450 S10: drawing people away from the Lord. And he's very clear 826 00:42:11,450 --> 00:42:14,330 S10: on that. Uh, you know, prophesying, healing the sick, driving 827 00:42:14,330 --> 00:42:17,009 S10: out demons. That's wonderful. We ought to be doing that 828 00:42:17,010 --> 00:42:20,089 S10: as Christians. But that in itself does not prove that 829 00:42:20,090 --> 00:42:23,160 S10: you're a believer. What it matters is whether you're following 830 00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:25,560 S10: Jesus as Lord and Savior and submitting your life to 831 00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:26,480 S10: him in faith. 832 00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:28,799 S5: Yeah, I saw a clip from R.C. Sproul who has 833 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,799 S5: gone on to his reward, and he just hammers this. 834 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,640 S5: He says, listen, there are many who have profession of 835 00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:39,919 S5: faith without possession of Christ. That's that's the bottom line, 836 00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:40,760 S5: isn't it, Sam? 837 00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:45,080 S10: Oh it is. Yeah. And, and again, here's the problem 838 00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,160 S10: is that we seem to take it upon ourselves to 839 00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:50,600 S10: be the ones who determine whether someone's going to heaven 840 00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,040 S10: or hell. And I've run into a lot of people, 841 00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:56,720 S10: especially in the present day, who want to pronounce eternal 842 00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:59,160 S10: judgment on individuals because they differ with them on things 843 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:02,440 S10: like eschatology, like the things we're talking about or other 844 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:06,000 S10: minor secondary doctrines. But I've always said as long as 845 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:10,160 S10: a person affirms the foundational truths of the the virgin birth, 846 00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:14,200 S10: sinless life, substitutionary death, salvation by grace alone, through faith 847 00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:17,960 S10: alone in Christ alone. Those are the issues that we 848 00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:20,399 S10: are called on in Scripture to determine if a person 849 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:23,350 S10: is truly a believer. you hold a different millennial view 850 00:43:23,390 --> 00:43:25,790 S10: than me or a different view on rapture or timing 851 00:43:25,830 --> 00:43:29,310 S10: of it. And the fact that Christians would divide and 852 00:43:29,310 --> 00:43:33,110 S10: make agreement on that particular issue, a condition for church membership. 853 00:43:33,350 --> 00:43:35,750 S10: You know, when I was still full time pastoring, I 854 00:43:35,790 --> 00:43:38,589 S10: made it clear to people all the time, all that 855 00:43:38,590 --> 00:43:40,750 S10: we ask that you do is believe in the second 856 00:43:40,750 --> 00:43:44,710 S10: coming of Jesus. Do you believe that he will appear physically, personally, 857 00:43:44,710 --> 00:43:48,950 S10: visibly to consummate his kingdom? If you do, you're welcome here. 858 00:43:49,270 --> 00:43:52,509 S10: Whatever view you hold on all the other issues, whether 859 00:43:52,510 --> 00:43:55,750 S10: it's Israel or the rapture or the millennium, that's of 860 00:43:55,750 --> 00:43:58,390 S10: secondary importance. We'll talk about them, we'll dialogue about them, 861 00:43:58,390 --> 00:44:01,190 S10: but we don't want to make those grounds for fellowship 862 00:44:01,190 --> 00:44:02,910 S10: or the termination of fellowship. 863 00:44:02,950 --> 00:44:07,350 S5: Boom. Nailed it. Sam. Storms, everybody. Uh, there is a 864 00:44:07,430 --> 00:44:11,069 S5: load of content here, and you've got to go get it. 865 00:44:11,110 --> 00:44:16,710 S5: Text the word storm to 800 555, 78, 98. One 866 00:44:16,710 --> 00:44:21,950 S5: word storm to 800 555 7898.