S1: Hello friends. It's time for the second hour of Open
S1: Line with Doctor Michael Moody Radio's Bible Study Across America.
S1: Today is a special pre-recorded edition of Open Line, so
S1: don't call. Today we're focusing on the inspiration and authority
S1: of the Bible. How do we get the scriptures? I'm
S1: Michael Melnick, dean of the undergraduate school at Moody Bible Institute.
S1: Joining me today is Trish McMillen, producer of Open Line. Also,
S1: Doctor Jim Coakley, professor of Bible at Moody Bible Institute,
S1: and Doctor Steven Sanchez, professor of Bible at Moody as well.
S1: Both of these men are contributors to the Moody Bible Commentary,
S1: and I thank you for your participation in that. Everyone,
S1: keep your Bibles open. Go get a second cup of coffee,
S1: because we're going to go right back to our discussion
S1: of the scriptures. And we've talked about inspiration and inerrancy
S1: and authority last hour. But this hour we're going to
S1: talk more about how we get the Bible. So Trish,
S1: you want to pick it up there.
S2: I do. Okay. So my first question which will get
S2: us into the next ones is can you define canon.
S2: That's kind of what we're going to talk about. Now.
S2: What is the canon.
S3: We're not talking about weaponry here. Okay.
S2: So this is actually spelled differently.
S3: This is not Pirates of the Caribbean here. That's not
S3: what we're doing. We're talking about a word that means
S3: a measuring rod of some sort. The word canon comes
S3: to us as canon, and the suggestion is a stick,
S3: an instrument that was used to measure things. And now,
S3: by extension, by metaphor, that becomes a way of describing
S3: either the books that measured up to a certain standard
S3: or the books that become the measuring standard by which
S3: we measure other things.
S1: And so, you know, people use the word canon. We're
S1: talking about the canon of scripture, the books that should
S1: be in the Bible.
S4: Right?
S1: The way people use it, they should understand it. Because
S1: I hear students all the time talking about the canon
S1: of Star Wars.
S3: Or the canon of Western literature. Yeah. Yes.
S1: Yeah. And so we're talking about, you know, which are
S1: the key books that everyone should read in Western literature,
S1: or we're talking about the canon of the Star Wars movies. Right? Uh,
S1: and and so when we're talking about books of the Bible,
S1: we're saying these are those that are the word of God.
S1: This is the inspired scripture, these and we're talking about
S1: the Old Testament canon, and we talk about the New
S1: Testament canon, which books were included in the Bible. That's
S1: what we're talking about when we talk about canon. All right.
S3: It's an important distinction, because not all the books that
S3: were out there in the ancient world made it in. Right.
S3: And so it's important to know which ones are the
S3: authoritative ones.
S2: And even as we were talking about last hour, there
S2: are other writings that the authors in the Bible will
S2: reference that are not in the Bible.
S1: Right? Yeah, they will actually use other sources that are
S1: not biblical. They're they're just extra biblical books.
S5: Mhm. Yep. So they're also. Yeah. And they will also
S5: then have all sorts of other things that are going
S5: on that influence some of this stuff. So this is
S5: where we have some tradition, because we are resting upon
S5: those who have wrestled with this in the past. So
S5: it is somewhat subjective. You know, some of the things
S5: because they had rules or canons about canonicity, but we
S5: could talk about some of those, but they did follow
S5: some semblance of orders to why they viewed certain certain
S5: books as authoritative and some that got left out.
S2: Okay. And as you mentioned, there's an Old Testament canon
S2: and a New Testament canon. Michael. Mhm. Um, so how
S2: was the Old Testament canon recognized?
S1: I'm going to jump in here because I had the
S1: authoritative expert for my course that I took this in seminary. Uh,
S1: he wrote the book, uh, A General Introduction to the Bible.
S1: He wrote the book From God to Us. His name
S1: was Norman Geisler, and he was he's quite a respected person.
S1: And I think one of the things that he said
S1: about canon is especially important. Now, we talked about all
S1: these different tests of canonicity and all this. But the
S1: main thing that he said is that when books of
S1: the Bible were written, the people of God immediately received
S1: them as the Word of God. It wasn't like they
S1: were saying, well, we're going to test this one out
S1: and see if it's the Word of God. It was
S1: immediately received as the Word of God. And so and
S1: that's why I don't think like the books of the Bible,
S1: of the Hebrew Bible were the the literature of Israel.
S1: They were not. They were the literature of the remnant
S1: of Israel. They were books written to the faithful of
S1: Israel to give them the Word of God. And they
S1: immediately received it as such. And then they passed it on.
S1: And as books were received, they were added to this
S1: collection of books. And then, of course, there's the the
S1: guy that I think is most significant. And the rabbinic
S1: writings say he's significant to this as well. I think
S1: even the Bible says he's significant, and that's Ezra. Ezra.
S1: Ezra is the guy. He's a biblical author, and he's
S1: putting it all together in the final form of what
S1: the Hebrew Bible is supposed to be. And I want
S1: to jump in with a passage that that I think
S1: is pretty important for understanding this. It's from Ezra chapter seven,
S1: verse ten. And it's Ezra had determined in his heart
S1: to study the law of the Lord, the Torah. And
S1: then it says to obey it and to teach its
S1: statutes and ordinances in Israel. The interesting thing about the
S1: word obey there it it can mean to form it.
S1: So not only does he want to, I think he
S1: wanted to obey it, but what he did is he
S1: studied the Torah. And Torah is a word that really
S1: referred to the law of Moses. But it could be
S1: expansive to the whole Hebrew Bible, and he formed it.
S1: He put the final shape to everything under the superintending
S1: of the Holy Spirit and then taught it, gave it
S1: to Israel. And so that's why we I would conjecture
S1: that the close of the Bible happens under at that point.
S1: At that point. Yeah.
S3: I think it's important to remember that the people of Israel,
S3: speaking specifically of the Hebrew Bible, they were already trained
S3: to listen for the voice of God. They knew this
S3: before they came into the land. They are going to
S3: be other voices speaking. God tells them, you might have
S3: a prophet who comes and tells you to worship another God.
S3: And they ask, well, how will we know? He gives
S3: them some tests. Their ears were already tuned, as it were.
S3: And so when a prophet shows up, he says things
S3: that are theologically accurate. They welcome that as the Word
S3: of God. It's not a committee sitting there saying, I wonder,
S3: should this, should this be included or that one? They
S3: hear it, they know what it is and they keep it.
S3: The other things they put to the side.
S1: And in the intertestamental period, we already see books of
S1: that are not part of Scripture. For example, in the
S1: Maccabees it talks about how there's no prophet in Israel anymore,
S1: but they're going to look forward to another one. They
S1: hope another one.
S3: He didn't come back from the exile. Yeah.
S1: And then the other passage. There's one that makes a
S1: tripartite division. I believe it was the Ecclesiasticus makes a
S1: three fold division of the Hebrew Bible, the law of
S1: the prophets and the writing and the writings. And and
S1: we see that in the New Testament.
S5: Does that because he refers to that same tripartite kind
S5: of division?
S1: Yeah. He he talks about that. Luke 24, the law
S1: of the prophets and the Psalms and the.
S5: Psalms, which is Psalms as the writings, as the first.
S1: Book of the.
S3: Writings, the largest.
S1: Book. Yeah. And and I've got one that I a
S1: passage of Scripture where you talk about the Old Testament
S1: canon is in Luke 1511. And, uh, now remember, the
S1: order of the books of the Bible in the Hebrew
S1: Bible are different than the ones that we have in
S1: our English Bible. Uh, our English Bible, the order is
S1: based on the Septuagint, but in the Hebrew Bible it
S1: was quite different. And in Luke 1511. Uh, do I
S1: have the wrong verse? I may have the wrong verse.
S1: I do have the wrong verse. Uh, but it's, uh,
S1: the point of it. 1151 I'm sorry, I'm saying. 1511 I'm,
S1: I'm having a little moment here. 1151 here it is. Uh,
S1: from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah,
S1: who perished between the altar and the sanctuary.
S5: It's also in Matthew chapter 2335, because I was going
S5: to talk about that same verse.
S1: And so what you have.
S5: Genesis two Chronicles.
S1: Yeah. So the first book of the Hebrew Bible is Genesis.
S1: The last book of the Hebrew Bible is Second Chronicles.
S1: And these two events, the the blood of Abel, happens
S1: in Genesis. The blood of Zechariah takes place that that
S1: death takes place in Second Chronicles.
S5: Chapter 24, verse 20. So if our listeners want to
S5: look at it. Yeah.
S1: So what what Jesus is saying is from the first
S1: book of the Bible to the last book of the Bible, uh,
S1: there's going to be judgment for those who resisted the
S1: prophets of God because.
S3: They always have from the beginning to the end.
S1: Exactly. And so but on a secondary note, what Jesus
S1: is recognizing.
S3: The boundaries of the canon, the boundaries.
S1: Of the canon. I think that's very cool. So I
S1: would say, and I think that that Steve, we both
S1: said it's not the tests that matter as much. We've
S1: been hearing.
S3: The voice of God in these, and they knew it.
S1: And they received it, and they were accepted as the
S1: word of God. That's right. So now there is some
S1: people who say, there are some people who say that
S1: there was a council of Jewish people, of rabbis who
S1: determine the Bible. That's the council of Yavneh. We're going
S1: to talk about that. But when we come back. So
S1: everyone listen, this is really important stuff. We're going to
S1: talk about the Council of Yavneh. Uh, it really wasn't
S1: a council, but we're going to talk about that when
S1: we get back. You're listening to Tricia McMillan, Jim Coakley,
S1: Steve Sanchez and me, Michael Radonich. We're talking about how
S1: we got the scriptures and why we can trust them.
S1: So don't go away. We're going to be right back.
S1: Stay with us and keep listening in on the conversation.
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S1: Welcome back to Open Line. I'm Michael Ray Dolnick, and
S1: it's a really fun and special hour that we're first
S1: hour was about the inspiration and authority of the Bible.
S1: If you missed that, go back and listen. But this
S1: hour we're talking about how he got the Bible. Tricia
S1: McMillan is here kind of making sure that we all
S1: stay on task. And she's the producer of Open Line.
S1: Jim Coakley, professor of Bible at Moody Bible Institute, is
S1: joining me, as well as Steve Sanchez, another professor of
S1: Bible at Moody. And we are talking about how we
S1: got the Bible. We were talking about the Old Testament canon,
S1: and I raised the issue of Yavneh, which is where
S1: Judaism sort of reformed itself after the destruction of the temple.
S1: In the the Greek term, it's called Jamnia. And so
S1: now they had a role in determining the Old Testament canon.
S1: What was it?
S3: Well, let's say what it wasn't. It wasn't? Oh, we've
S3: got a lot of books laying around here. Let's pick
S3: a few and make a canon for ourselves. It was because.
S1: There was already a.
S3: Canon. They already knew what the canon was. That's right.
S3: So they're reaffirming. They're acknowledging there are some questions at
S3: the margins about books that are difficult to interpret, but
S3: that's vastly different from saying, let's make a canon for
S3: ourselves and sanctify it as authoritative.
S1: Yeah. They said, well, they were asking. They already accepted
S1: the canon. We see it in the New Testament. Jesus
S1: already has accepted. That's right. The canon. But they say, well,
S1: what about the Song of Solomon? That seems a little
S1: too sensual. Right. But.
S5: So it's really more an ongoing discussion to see what
S5: are we going to do about these books, like Steve said,
S5: is that the margins that, you know, like, do we
S5: really want to Proverbs.
S1: Yes. Yeah. That's a little bit. They think they think
S1: Proverbs could be illogical. Why? Because one verse says answer
S1: a fool. Another verse says, don't answer a fool. Instead
S1: of understanding that it's wisdom. So they're talking about that.
S1: They're talking about disaster and unspiritual book because God's name
S1: isn't mentioned. Mentioned. Yeah, they're talking about Ecclesiastes seems kind
S1: of skeptical in places. Right. And so they're.
S5: Taking his words as authoritative when it's Solomon's using about life. Yeah.
S1: But the most influential rabbi there, Rabbi Akiva, he kept insisting, yes,
S1: these are the words of God. These are. And we shouldn't.
S1: He wasn't saying we should include them. He was saying,
S1: let's not get rid of them. They're in the canon already.
S3: That's important. They already know what's between the covers of
S3: the book.
S1: Yeah. And I always think it's important that we know
S1: when it comes to canon, what they were really doing
S1: is these new books were showing up. Remember, this is
S1: between the years 70 and 100. About 120 new books
S1: are showing up. They're called the New Testament, and they
S1: actually allude to them. And these rabbis at Yavneh, they
S1: don't like it. Right. And so what they're saying is,
S1: do these not those. We don't want to accept their
S1: authority because they're excluding the New Testament from the canon.
S1: It's not their job. There is not really to decide
S1: what the Hebrew canon is. It's what they wanted to
S1: do was to exclude the New Testament canon. So we
S1: have to be really careful about that. Okay, New Testament canon,
S1: let's move to that. Do you have a question about that, Trish?
S2: Uh, just just how how was it recognized?
S1: Yeah, it was a little different, don't you think, than in.
S3: Some ways it's different. In other ways it's the same.
S3: I think Christians hear the voice of God. They know
S3: these texts. They recognize the people who are writing them.
S3: Peter is going to refer to Paul's writings, and he's
S3: going to refer to them as the scriptures. He recognizes
S3: in them the same voice of God. And so in
S3: that sense, the the process is not that much different.
S3: They hear God speaking in these texts and they trust them.
S5: So and even in the first century, we have Clement
S5: of Rome, who's already quoting from some of these books.
S5: And so already eight of the books are already mentioned
S5: by 95 A.D.. Bf5+, so they're clearly being already seen
S5: as authoritative very early on.
S1: Yeah, I think it's interesting because even the New Testament
S1: is accepting it right away. Uh, here's here's what I
S1: mean by that. Jude cites Peter. Mhm. Peter cites Paul
S1: as scripture. And if you want to see that, that's
S1: in second Peter 315 and 16, he even says that
S1: Paul's hard to understand.
S3: Like the other.
S1: Scriptures. Yeah. Yeah.
S3: That's amazing.
S1: Yeah. And so he says to him, as Scripture, Paul
S1: quotes Luke as Scripture in first Timothy 518. He quotes
S1: Luke ten seven. Uh, obviously he knew about Luke's writing,
S1: but he quotes it as Scripture. And so the New
S1: Testament is actually quoting other New Testament books. And so
S1: it shows us these books were being immediately recognized as Scripture. Uh,
S1: and in many times, the letters that Paul wrote and
S1: Peter wrote and James wrote. They weren't just written to
S1: one time cyclical letters.
S5: They were being passed around. Yeah.
S1: Why? Because they were considered the word of God. And
S1: so I think that's so important that we recognize it
S1: was not Constantine. Uh, Trish can, uh, confirm this. We
S1: get a lot of people asking if it was the
S1: Emperor Constantine who decided on what books will be in
S1: the New Testament. Where are they getting that from?
S3: No more than Jamnia decided on what's in the Old Testament.
S1: I think they're getting it from a worse source. Yep,
S1: they're getting it from Dan Brown. And because at the
S1: Council of Nicaea, where Constantine was, who is.
S5: Dan Brown, some of our listeners may not know The
S5: Da Vinci.
S1: Code. He wrote this book of fiction. And he asserts
S1: in there that Constantine decided which books the New Testament
S1: to include, and the ones he didn't like. He excluded
S1: nothing whatsoever at the Council of Nicaea in 325. I think, uh,
S1: nothing had to do with the scripture they were dealing
S1: with the deity of the Lord Jesus. No no no no.
S1: That was not the decision. You can see much earlier
S1: on that there were the New Testament books, as you said, Jim.
S5: Yeah, there's a number of I mean, the idea of
S5: Polycarp acknowledged 15 of the books by 108, and it
S5: just keeps on exponentially getting better. Now, there are just
S5: like the Old Testament, some books that are so at
S5: the margin second Peter and some others, but generally, by
S5: and large, there was wide acceptance of both.
S3: Nobody's disputing the.
S1: Gospels, right?
S3: Just like nobody disputed the Torah.
S1: But today they say we found this gospel, the Gospel
S1: of Mary Magdalene. Yeah. Or the Gospel of Judas.
S3: Competing Christianity's at that time, and some are suppressed. But
S3: is that what's actually happening? Maybe they were put away
S3: because they were untruthful and the church recognized there's not
S3: the ring of truth in these gospels. Put them aside.
S3: These are the ones we can trust.
S1: Exactly. And moreover, some of them are really late. Yes.
S1: Very late. In fact, there are no early ones. And strange.
S1: They're they're their second, third, fourth centuries. It's not like
S1: they were there from the beginning. These other gospels, they're
S1: just they're actually Gnostic books that the Gnostics are saying, oh, wait, wait,
S1: we just found this book. It was written by Peter.
S1: They're making this up, right? And and they're adding it
S1: much later, trying to change the truth of the gospel. So, yeah,
S1: the I think it's so crucial that we know that
S1: it wasn't they were sitting around, of course, they were
S1: looking for some sort of I think the reason the
S1: church has accepted them, they wanted them to be either
S1: apostolic or linked to an apostle. Yeah.
S5: I think that's key. The idea that is there somebody
S5: that we know of that's apostolic authority that's associated with
S5: these books? Yeah. Somebody who saw Jesus, somebody who was
S5: with Jesus, someone who was with the disciples, that kind
S5: of thing.
S1: So the gospel of Mark really reflects what Peter, Peter
S1: and the Gospel of Luke is linked to. Paul. Paul authorized,
S1: I believe the writing of Luke acts to for him
S1: to go to the Greco-Roman world and have a book
S1: that he can show about the church and Jesus, Jesus,
S1: and then the church. And so there those books are
S1: linked to apostles. And so that's what they're looking for.
S1: Does this book, whether an apostle wrote it or not?
S1: Does it have the ring of apostolic authority?
S3: That's not very different from what's going on in the
S3: Hebrew Bible, the Torah. Moses wrote it. No one's going
S3: to dispute that. Yeah. And there are other attestations of
S3: these books. Samuel, Jeremiah, Isaiah. We know these are authoritative
S3: men who speak with God's authority, not their own. That's
S3: why their writings are trustworthy.
S1: So that's what it is. What and how.
S2: Was the order of the New Testament determined? That's in
S2: our English Bible. Is that the.
S5: That's a very good question, because most of the time
S5: people are surprised that it's not by when they were written.
S5: It's often by size. Roman starts out as one of
S5: the largest of Paul's letters, and we get smaller and
S5: smaller as we go. So it's not on a linear
S5: chronological timeline, but they do.
S1: Well, first you have the Gospels. There's some sort of chronology.
S1: You get the Gospels.
S3: Then acts.
S1: Then you get acts. I mean, when I teach acts,
S1: I always tell everyone. Here's what I want you to do.
S1: I want you to read the first verses of Romans
S1: and see if you know what this means. If you
S1: don't have the book of Acts, it's the great bridge
S1: from the Gospels to the epistles. And, and so. And
S1: then you get the letters. So you've got the story
S1: of Jesus, the story of the church, the letters of
S1: the church, and then the culmination with the book of revelation.
S1: So it's size and chronology in a sense.
S5: There's a little bit of both. But the idea that,
S5: you know, Galatians is probably one of the early ones,
S5: how come it's not first after we read the book
S5: of acts? Yeah, it's because they were.
S1: It was smaller than.
S5: Romans, than Romans. And Romans is a very key book. Yeah.
S1: So that's how it was. And I think that that's
S1: really important. But there are other books there. The in-between books.
S2: Yes, several, several people asked and wanted to know why
S2: the Apocrypha is not included in some Bibles. Yeah.
S3: I think the best answer for Protestant Christians is that
S3: the Jewish community never accepted these books as authoritative scripture.
S3: The original Bible of the early church is the Old Testament.
S3: The Hebrew Bible and the Hebrew Bible did not include
S3: these books, the apocryphal books in their canon. And so,
S3: as the church takes it over, they take with them
S3: the books that the the Old Testament believers trusted.
S1: Yeah, some people think that the reason the Apocrypha is
S1: included in some Bibles is because the Septuagint had it,
S1: but it really didn't. The earliest records we have from
S1: Josephus and others, where it talks about the books of
S1: the Bible in the Septuagint, did not include the Apocrypha.
S3: Josephus is very careful to enumerate the books, and they
S3: don't include the apocryphal books.
S1: And so what happened was in the fourth century or so,
S1: there was a version, a copy of the Septuagint made
S1: that included the Apocrypha, not the original, but a later cop.
S1: And then they said, well, let's conclude these two because
S1: they're holy books. And somehow that's I think, let's get
S1: gets translated into the Vulgate.
S3: It's important Jerome understood a distinction.
S1: Don't know what the Vulgate is. It's a Roman, a
S1: Latin version that Jerome did in the fourth or fifth century.
S3: That's right. And he understood the distinction. Yeah. And he
S3: made notes and separated out those apocryphal books. Yeah. But
S3: as they were published and republished and reprinted and reprinted,
S3: those notes and those distinctions fell away and people just
S3: worked them right in. Yeah.
S1: They were just kind of good religious books.
S5: They're very kind of intriguing reads. I remember when I
S5: was in seminary, I read the Apocrypha because it's kind
S5: of like, what do we do with these books? I
S5: remember reading The Book of Judith and thinking, wow, this
S5: would make a great movie. Yeah. It's like, wow. Why?
S5: Why does somebody take this up? But now again, it's
S5: not authoritative. It's not inspired. It's not inerrant, but it
S5: just kind of is an interesting read in terms of
S5: a narrative story.
S1: And the book of First Maccabees is very helpful. History historically. Yeah.
S1: But nevertheless, it is not. And in fact first Second
S1: Maccabees is cited in the book of Hebrews in Hebrews
S1: 1132 through 40. It mentions, uh, a woman, uh, who
S1: those who were were looking for a better resurrection, and
S1: they refused to disobey God. That's a reference to Hannah
S1: and her sons from the Maccabees. So there are things
S1: that were true that happened in them, but they are
S1: not inerrant. They are not inspired. So how do they
S1: get in? What's the issue? It's the Reformation.
S3: How how do they get out?
S6: Yeah.
S1: Well, here's what happens. They really were not accepted as
S1: the Bible. And then the Reformation comes along and they
S1: say sola scriptura and some of these doctrines being taught
S1: are not in the Bible. And so we're not going
S1: to believe them anymore. And so in the Counter Reformation,
S1: the church says, well, they may not be taught in
S1: the Bible, but they're taught in the Apocrypha. And so
S1: what are we going to do? We're going to make
S1: sure the Apocrypha is now we're going to do.
S5: Scripture, right?
S6: Yeah.
S3: So those are now called the deuterocanonicals Canonicals. A second cannon,
S3: not lower than, but alongside equal of authority to the
S3: first cannon. The Council of Trent declares.
S1: So you have, like an Old Testament canon, an Inter-testamental canon,
S1: which is the Apocrypha, right? According to the authority of
S1: the church and then the New Testament canon. But it
S1: is it's really a 16th century addition to the Bible.
S1: It is not original to the Bible. So it was
S1: it was over an argument about doctrine. They said, well,
S1: we're going to find verses that back it up. It's
S1: in the Apocrypha. Let's put it in now. So that's
S1: that's where it comes from. So there are a lot
S1: of people that want to know about the Apocrypha, but uh,
S1: but nevertheless, uh, we're not going to say that they're
S1: part of the word of God. Although when I came
S1: to Moody Bible Institute as a teenager, as a freshman,
S1: and I took New Testament survey, the first two weeks
S1: or so of the course, we had to read the
S1: whole Apocrypha because it kind of bridges into the New
S1: Testament and helps us.
S5: There is that gap of knowledge between when Ezra passed
S5: off the scene to when we come to Jesus and
S5: John the Baptist. So the Book of Maccabees does kind
S5: of fill us in with some of those details. Yeah, I.
S1: Think that that is really important that we recognize that,
S1: that that it's not a bad thing to read. It's
S1: just not the authoritative word of God. And there are
S1: many people who listen to this, and they would come
S1: from a different tradition, and they they would like to
S1: read the Bible and they have the Apocrypha. I say
S1: go for it, read it. But the main thing to read,
S1: read the scriptures. You know, what you want to do
S1: is read God's authoritative Word of God. Now there's a
S1: bunch of questions about the Apocrypha. Did we kind of
S1: cover all this? We did. Yes. Yeah. That that's really
S1: important that we we know where they came from, what
S1: they are. And yeah, you can read them, but they're not.
S1: I read a lot of literature. I because I teach
S1: courses here that includes the Mishnah and the Talmud and
S1: things like that. But I always say they're not the
S1: wonderful words of life, nor nor is the Apocrypha.
S5: Just like we would read ancient Near Eastern texts from
S5: the time of the Old Testament to kind of fill
S5: us in with details or a good.
S3: Devotional that we love.
S1: Yeah, but what we want to really read is the
S1: Word of God, the Bible, which are the wonderful words
S1: of life. We're going to be right back with more
S1: of your questions right here on on Open Line, my guest,
S1: Jim Coakley, Steve Sanchez, Trish McMillan's kind of riding herd,
S1: making sure we stay on top of things. Uh, my
S1: name is Michael Radonich. Stay with us. We'll be right back.
S1: We're so glad that Febc partners with Open Line with
S1: Doctor Michael Radonich, bringing the Febc mailbag every week. Learn
S1: how far East Broadcasting Company is taking Christ to the
S1: world at febc. Org on their weekly podcast. Until all
S1: have heard with Ed Cannon, you'll hear stories of lives
S1: changed by Messiah all across the globe. Again. You can
S1: hear the podcast when you visit febc.
S7: Dawg. That's fake dawg.
S1: Welcome back to Open Line. My name is Michael Melnick,
S1: and I am so glad you're listening today to this
S1: great pre-recorded discussion. We're talking about how we got the
S1: Word of God. The first hour was about the inspiration
S1: and authority of the Bible. If you missed it, go
S1: back to the website and listen online or download the podcast.
S1: I think you're really going to like it. This hour
S1: of focusing on how we got the Bible producer Trish
S1: McMillan is here. Jim Coakley is my guest. He's a
S1: professor of Bible at Moody Bible Institute. Steve Sanchez, also
S1: a professor of Bible at Moody and both contributors to
S1: the Moody Bible Commentary. I'm grateful for their help today
S1: as we talk about these important questions. Let's go right
S1: back to it, Trish.
S2: All right, Elizabeth Rodas in North Carolina, she listens on
S2: the mobile app and says, what? Why was the book
S2: of the Psalms included in the Bible if it's primarily songs? Okay,
S2: who wants to take that one?
S3: You know the Psalms. The Psalms breathe with emotion. And
S3: they they live in the world of joy and pain
S3: and delight and suffering. And I like to read the
S3: Psalms and say to myself, this is this is God
S3: showing me how to worship, how to delight in him,
S3: how to deal with pain, how to complain, and at
S3: the same time have faith in the one who promises
S3: to take care of me. Without the Psalms, we'd lose
S3: a lot in how we relate to God. A lot
S3: of that instruction.
S5: That's what I love about the whole scriptures, is because
S5: we have something for everybody, so to speak. We have
S5: history time. We have letters. If you want to know
S5: exactly what to do. But then we also have these
S5: wisdom books that also kind of especially with the Psalms,
S5: give us what's if I if I'm in pain, if
S5: I have been suffering, what words can I have? Well,
S5: I can use the psalmist to kind of voice back
S5: to God, what I'm experiencing. And so it's a great
S5: thing to have in the scriptures.
S1: Okay, I'm going to go back to what we were
S1: asked earlier by someone. How do they decide which books
S1: of the canon in the Hebrew Bible? One of the
S1: things I think that caused the remnant of Israel, the
S1: faithful of Israel, to receive these books immediately is that
S1: they were looking for a messianic message. And there is
S1: a messianic message. I believe in every book of the
S1: Hebrew Bible, and the Psalms are no different. I really
S1: a lot of us don't realize this, that the Psalms
S1: were written over a long period of time, but there
S1: are Psalms from the exile. There are psalms from after
S1: the exile, like Psalm 126, when the Lord brought back
S1: the captive ones from Zion. Psalm 137 is in the exile,
S1: which is Psalm 90.
S5: From Moses, which is earthly.
S1: Long period of time. But then they were made into
S1: a book after the return from exile. And one of
S1: the key themes of the Book of Psalms is the king. Yes.
S1: And some of those who hold something called form criticism
S1: have called those royal psalms, even if that's right, if
S1: they're royal psalms, who's the king in the Post-exilic period,
S1: there is no king there waiting for the return, the
S1: coming of the king. And and so the king. This
S1: is about the Messiah. And it's it's designed to teach
S1: us about the Messiah. David uses he wrote 73 Psalms.
S1: I think David is using his own home movies, so
S1: to speak, his own experiences to teach us about that
S1: future king. And that's how we have to read the Psalms.
S1: And so, uh, there are great insight into the messianic
S1: message of the Hebrew Bible. That's why it's included.
S5: It's wonderful too, because Psalm one, I think we have
S5: read the word keep the law, but then Psalm two,
S5: kiss the son, you know, worship him. And then Psalm eight,
S5: you know the king's rage. And so you're right. There's
S5: something going on here as the kings are raging. Yeah,
S5: something about Psalm one.
S1: As you read the word, guess what? You're going to
S1: find Psalm two. You're going to find, uh, the king. Yeah.
S1: So that's that's what I would say about why the
S1: Psalms were included.
S2: Okay. So with that, so you have these Psalms that
S2: are written over a long period of time will move
S2: kind of into transmission. How we actually got the written
S2: word of God are those Psalms being written down and
S2: passed out in pieces of paper? I mean, how how
S2: are people knowing these? How have they collected all of
S2: these Psalms or any of the other Old Testament, especially books? Um,
S2: how was that passed down from generation to generation?
S5: We really don't have a whole lot of information about
S5: that because we don't have the manuscripts, the transmission of
S5: those texts from that time. But we do know, as
S5: we already talked about, that there is time that's developed
S5: even in Proverbs. You get to the end of the
S5: book of Proverbs, that these are the Proverbs of Solomon
S5: in which the men of Hezekiah collected. It's like, huh?
S5: I thought Solomon wrote it all, but there was still
S5: some more floating around that Solomon wrote that the men
S5: of Hezekiah, which is 100 years plus later, that are
S5: now now put together along with what we already established
S5: with Solomonic proverbs. And so there is this kind of
S5: work in progress kind of thing, but it is at
S5: the end inspired and what God wants to have in
S5: the scriptures.
S1: Yeah. And then there's structure, even to the book of Proverbs,
S1: the way it's put together. The the point of that
S1: is that we don't know how they preserved, but they
S1: did preserve Psalm 90, and they did preserve the Psalms
S1: of David, and they did preserve the Psalms of Asaph.
S1: And what happens is at the end they're put into
S1: a book and they're structured there's five volumes to the
S1: book of Psalms and so forth. I always think that
S1: probably someone like Isaiah, he kept a journal and he
S1: would write down events. But that's not what we have
S1: in the book of Isaiah. Then he takes all these
S1: things that he probably wrote down, and he forms it
S1: into a book.
S5: It's an anthology. It's his greatest hits. But it's now
S5: but now it has structure.
S1: It's got structure purpose. Yeah. So, so that's why how
S1: it was I.
S6: Don't.
S1: We don't know. We don't.
S6: Know. But they're copying.
S3: They're passing down. And later generations are aware of the
S3: copies that they have.
S1: We have things like the Torah where it says that
S1: Joshua copied it.
S6: Right.
S1: There are things that are copied, and that's how it
S1: was done.
S2: But so is this mostly oral tradition or. We don't
S2: know that either. I mean, it was a different time
S2: where we weren't writing notes down on various electronic devices.
S2: So we they were thinking.
S6: No, but they were.
S3: Capable of writing. Yeah. I mean, I think writing is key,
S3: and Israel's not the only culture in the ancient Near East.
S3: There are lots of others, and they're all writing too.
S3: And so the idea that it's just an oral tradition,
S3: I don't think that goes far enough. It doesn't give
S3: enough credit, if you will, to the to the people
S3: of the land. Things are being spoken and they have
S3: writing material. They're capable of writing things down. And that
S3: really is what preserves the text more than fallible human memory.
S3: It's we wrote this down. Did he actually say that?
S3: Yes he did. Look, here it is. We've got it
S3: written down.
S1: So, Moses, when he's writing the Pentateuch.
S6: Clearly he's.
S1: Got genealogies that that were written down that he's using.
S1: There may have been some stories that he wrote down
S1: about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that weren't written. Maybe they were,
S1: but they were passed down to him from Jochebed, his mom,
S1: who raised him. And so he knew some of the
S1: stories of, of Israel.
S5: And we also know the kings were supposed to write it.
S5: Here's Deuteronomy chapter 17, verse 18. Now it should come
S5: about when he sits on the throne of his kingdom.
S5: He shall write for himself a copy of this law
S5: and a scroll in the presence of the Levitical priests.
S5: So we already know that kings and leaders were supposed
S5: to rewrite what was passed down from Moses.
S3: And Moses was commanded to write.
S5: It was commanded to write it. And so he is
S5: writing going on now. How do they preserve it? On
S5: what materials? Now here it mentions a scroll. Was it
S5: on clay tablets? Was it on animal skins? Was it
S5: on papyrus? All these things? That's the kind of stuff
S5: we're kind of missing in terms of the material culture
S5: that this stuff was written on. Yeah.
S1: So I think it's vital that we know that even
S1: if there were oral traditions, by the time they get
S1: into the Bible.
S6: Written down there, written down.
S1: And passed down.
S3: And aren't you thankful that you have the Word of
S3: God written down? Yeah. I mean, you don't have to
S3: rely on your memory, your mood. You turn to a book.
S3: This is what it says. There's confidence that it's the
S3: word of God and you move forward. Yeah.
S5: I do think, though, there are some things that do
S5: show that there was a morality to these stories, especially
S5: because their structures repeated kind of patterns. And it's like
S5: you could see how a storyteller could have memory aids
S5: to kind of tell the story of judges or tell
S5: the story of Joshua with these kind of devices that
S5: are there. Now, of course, they did ultimately write them down,
S5: but I think there is Aids for oral storytelling of
S5: the scriptures.
S1: Yeah, yeah.
S2: So all right, um, kind of moving into translations and
S2: some of those things. We'll start with the King James controversy. Um,
S2: and some contention about, um, that text. Um, yeah. Maybe
S2: I'll just start there and let you take it from there.
S2: What are some of the controversies surrounding that? Do we
S2: get a lot of questions about this?
S1: The issue that people say now, there are most people
S1: who say, oh, we should keep the King James as
S1: the Authorized Version, as the only true Bible they're saying,
S1: because they like the archaic language.
S5: Right. It feels more spiritual when they read it.
S6: But that's it.
S1: Yeah, that's really not what drives a lot of this controversy.
S1: What drives it? And that's why there can be a
S1: new King James Version is particularly with the New Testament.
S1: It was believed that the, the, the way to understand it,
S1: that there were families of texts of ancient texts of
S1: the New Testament and the Byzantine family from the Byzantine
S1: church had the most of those. In fact, they had
S1: they just because that was really the only one that
S1: they had, it kept getting copied over and over and
S1: over again. So they were the most of those. And
S1: then the New Testament, the the King James Bible is translated.
S1: What's the Greek text? They have the Byzantine, and so
S1: they translated it from that. That was in the year 1611.
S1: There were other versions in English before that, the Geneva
S1: Bible and so forth. Then what happens as time goes on?
S1: I'm going to let some of my other professors come
S1: in at this. We're going to join this in just
S1: a moment. Uh, we've got the King James produced based
S1: on the Byzantine or the majority of the manuscripts that
S1: we have. And then something happens and we're going to
S1: talk about that when we come back. So if you're listening,
S1: you may be teasing us.
S5: He's teasing us.
S6: Cliffhanger.
S1: You want to know what happened? Why? We have other versions.
S1: This is what we'll tell you when we come back.
S1: You're listening to Steve Sanchez, Jim Coakley, Trish McMillan and me,
S1: Michael Wright. So don't go away. If you want to
S1: know why there's this controversy about the King James Bible.
S1: Stay with us. This is open line. People frequently think
S1: of Christmas as a Christian holiday and Hanukkah as a
S1: Jewish celebration. But if we really understood Christmas, we see
S1: that it's deeply connected to the Jewish people. I mean,
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S1: Chosen People Ministries, one of open lines underwriters and a
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S1: the world, is offering Christmas through Jewish eyes. This free
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S1: your free copy of Christmas Through Jewish Eyes, just go
S1: to the Open Line website. Open Line radio.org. Scroll down.
S1: You'll see a link that says A free gift from
S1: Chosen People Ministries. Click on that. You'll be taken to
S1: a page where you can sign up for your own
S1: copy of Christmas Through Jewish Eyes. Welcome back to Open Line.
S1: My name is Michael Melnick, and we're talking about how
S1: we got the Bible. My guests are Jim Coakley, Steven Sanchez,
S1: and Tricia McMillan. Last segment, we were talking about the
S1: Byzantine manuscripts that those were the most frequently copied, and
S1: so therefore they had them the most when they first
S1: began to translate the Bible into English. Well, then what happens?
S3: We start finding new manuscripts. There are new manuscripts, and
S3: when they're analyzed.
S6: They're really old manuscripts, older.
S3: Manuscripts. And the general assumption is that if it's older,
S3: it's closer to the original, less opportunity for things to change.
S3: People start to incorporate these new manuscripts into new editions
S3: of the Greek New Testament, which then they use to
S3: translate new versions of the New Testament in other languages.
S1: And so people are thinking to me, they always say, well,
S1: the King James had this verse this way, and now
S1: it's taken out.
S3: As if someone did that intentionally to ruin.
S6: Something. Yeah, to take something out.
S1: I'm thinking of the verse in First John. Uh, people
S1: complain to me about that. The verse was taken out about, uh,
S1: the Trinity. Yeah. The Trinity in verse six, uh, Jesus
S1: the Messiah. He is the one who came by water
S1: and blood and not by water only, but by water
S1: and by blood. And the spirit is the one who testifies,
S1: because the spirit is the truth. When I look at
S1: the footnote here in my Bible, it says other manuscripts
S1: include these testify in heaven, the father, the word, and
S1: the Holy Spirit. Well, that obviously found its way into
S1: the Byzantine or that majority text. At a later time.
S1: Some scribe was trying to help along with the Trinity. Right.
S1: And they added those words.
S5: So let's talk about the Trinity. Yeah.
S1: And they stuck those words in. And now we find
S1: the earlier manuscripts who.
S6: Say, no, not there.
S1: That's not there. So when we do a modern translation
S1: that's based on the earliest and best versions, it's not
S1: going to have that. They'll put it in a footnote.
S6: That's right. Yeah.
S3: In some cases mine actually doesn't have it in the footnote.
S6: Oh, it doesn't even have it in the footnote. That's
S6: the ESV.
S1: The Hcsb at least gives you the footnote for all
S1: the people that are going to have a heart attack
S1: when they don't see that. But that's because it wasn't
S1: in the earliest and the best manuscripts. So.
S5: But let's talk though we're only talking about a handful
S5: of these kind of major passages like first John five six,
S5: like the woman caught in adultery. John chapter eight, like
S5: the ending of the gospel of Mark. Those are the
S5: three biggies. But then we're really talking about minor kind
S5: of issues. Did they say Lord Jesus Christ or just
S5: say Jesus Christ? Okay, we're not changing at all anything
S5: about who Jesus Christ is. It's just maybe a little
S5: label that might be at issue.
S1: Okay, so people get mad about Westcott and Hort. What
S1: was the role of Westcott and Hort in this development
S1: of New Testament manuscripts?
S3: These guys are compiling a new Greek text, a new
S3: critical Greek text, and using that term in the best
S3: sense of the word, that then becomes the text that
S3: modern translations are used from. Yeah.
S1: So what they're doing is they're working with the earliest.
S6: That's right.
S1: And so people are going to want to say bad
S1: things about them. I don't know anything about their spiritual life.
S1: I don't know anything about what kind of people they were.
S1: I just.
S6: Never got people say.
S3: Not so good things.
S6: Yeah, I don't know.
S1: But I do know this. They produced the best and
S1: earliest manuscripts. And as more and more study has been done,
S1: they find they found earlier ones and even better tests.
S1: And so that's that's why the modern. That's why I
S1: say you need a modern translation, because we don't want
S1: to treat people often treated the Byzantine text as if
S1: it was the very thing that Paul wrote or that
S1: Matthew wrote, and it wasn't.
S6: I think it's important.
S3: You've said this already just to repeat it. We're talking
S3: about a New Testament conversation, whether it's a King James
S3: or an ESV or a Net Bible, the Old Testament,
S3: we're depending all on the same manuscript, the Leningrad Codex.
S3: That's the one everyone is using. So this is basically
S3: a New Testament conversation.
S6: Yeah.
S1: And of course, there are variant readings in the Old Testament.
S6: Of course there are.
S1: And I know, for example, in the hcsb the version
S1: I use, they will sometimes take a well, almost every
S1: Christian Bible I know translates Psalm 22 as they pierced
S1: my hands and my feet. 2216 however, in the Masoretic
S1: Text it says, as a lion, my hands and my feet.
S1: And so we go with the variant reading there. The
S1: thing is, we're doing good textual criticism. That's exactly that's
S1: the point. And we want to base our Bibles on
S1: the best, earliest, strongest understanding of what the original text said.
S3: That's right. And Psalm one 4513 is longer in modern versions,
S3: in many cases, because one of the Dead Sea scroll
S3: fragments suggests that, hey, this extra verse has an extra
S3: few lines to it. And we've now found that that
S3: wasn't discovered until 48, 47, 48. And now we add
S3: that back in. Yeah, it's been preserved for us.
S6: That's it.
S1: So that's that's what we're doing. And so I think
S1: that King James was a great translation. It was beautiful
S1: in its day. There are better translations today. And we
S1: would do well to use a good modern translation.
S5: If somebody says, I love the King James because of
S5: its cadence, because it's, you know, that that's great. But
S5: if you say, well, it's the authorized text, then you
S5: shouldn't be reading any others. I think that goes beyond
S5: a mistake. The and by the way.
S1: I think the new King James Version is one of
S1: the best translations.
S6: Of the Old Testament. Yep. Yeah.
S5: So King James is actually easier to memorize than a
S5: lot of the other ones are because of the cadence
S5: and the English that they had. So it's a very
S5: good translation. Yeah.
S2: All right. Roger had asked us if there regarding the
S2: differences between the modern translations, if you could give him
S2: a good reference material that will help them better understand
S2: the differences between the modern Bible translations, what are the
S2: what are the differences that you would say in the
S2: modern ones?
S5: The thing we talk about with Bible translation is a
S5: formal versus functional. Formal are translations that are trying to
S5: follow as closely as they can. The original source language,
S5: Greek or Hebrew functional ones, are ones that are trying
S5: to get a little bit more the sense of what's
S5: being communicated, rather than necessarily the same word order or
S5: things like that. And a lot of times people think, oh,
S5: the more formal is the better, but that's not always
S5: the case. I remember hearing about a tribe in Brazil
S5: where negation happens if you negate something, if you say
S5: something twice. So that's how they would say no is
S5: you say it twice. Well, what are you going to
S5: do if you translate the Gospel of John? Truly, truly,
S5: I say to you, you must be born again. Yeah.
S5: So you could be formal, but then you're actually communicating.
S5: You don't need to be born again. Ah. And so
S5: all of a sudden they decide, okay, you can see
S5: how cumbersome and how tricky this is to say, well,
S5: I'm trying to communicate what God's Word is saying. Do
S5: I go with the formal and say it has to
S5: say same thing twice, but they will hear it that
S5: I don't need to do it. So this is the
S5: challenge that we have with Bible translation. Yeah.
S1: So what we're saying is that some are much more
S1: rigid in English.
S6: Let's just stick to English.
S1: And others want to say and that would be a
S1: a formal translation and then others would be more dynamic equivalence.
S1: How would we say the very same thing, but say
S1: it as we speak today in English?
S3: Every translation is on a spectrum. A formal or that
S3: dynamic side. It's not that they're not inspired. Sometimes people
S3: will say, well, that one's too far and that one,
S3: it's not inspired. No, no, no, it's a translator. Translation committee.
S3: Trying to take those words from the original language and
S3: render them in a manner that you can understand easily.
S1: That's all it is. And so. Okay, so favorite translations.
S5: Boy, I, I was what am I doing if I'm
S5: studying the trying to read in English what's underlying the
S5: Greek and Hebrew? I read the New American Standard, but
S5: I also read a lot of other translations as well.
S3: I'm using the ESV these days. I grew up on
S3: the new King James. I like the new Living Translation
S3: at times. I've been using one produced by Tyndale, the
S3: Immerse Bible, and it gives you a nice read. When
S3: I need detail study, I often turn back to my MNAs.
S1: I like the New American Standard for detailed study. I
S1: like the ESV. It's also a very good. I think
S1: it's a formal translation, very accurate. I use on a
S1: daily basis the Holman Christian Standard Bible, which has now
S1: been revised.
S6: Christian Standard, Bible Standard.
S1: CSB, the CSB, and I haven't really read through the
S1: new version yet, but I still like the Holman CSB,
S1: the Holman Christian Standard Bible. Uh, I think balances formal
S1: and easy to they like.
S5: To call it the optimal translation trying to balance between
S5: formal and.
S6: Functional. They're a.
S5: Little marketing.
S6: There.
S1: Thanks for this program today. Thank you Jim. Thank you, Steve,
S1: for joining me. That was Jim Coakley Steve Sanchez thanks
S1: Trish for riding herd, getting this all together for us,
S1: making sure that we answered the questions that you sent in. Remember,
S1: you can keep in touch with Open Line during the
S1: week by going to our website, Openline radio.org. That page
S1: has everything you need, whether it's past programs, email links,
S1: or if you want to send your questions in, there's
S1: a link to Ask Michael a question. Whatever you're looking for,
S1: you'll find it there. Keep reading the Bible. We'll talk
S1: about it next week. Open line with Doctor Michael Melnick
S1: is a production of Moody Radio, a ministry of Moody
S1: Bible Institute.