1 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:08,159 S1: What a topic. What a guest for you today at 2 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:11,639 S1: the Radio Backyard Fence. He is a former atheist who 3 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:14,320 S1: is now a professor of science and religion at Oxford, 4 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:19,840 S1: best known for his definitive and widely used textbooks on theology, 5 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:24,720 S1: as well as his authoritative biography of C.S. Lewis, whose 6 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:31,520 S1: writing greatly influenced our guest. His name is Alister McGrath. 7 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:34,360 S1: Doctor McGrath is going to join us today. I'm saying 8 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:37,400 S1: that by faith we haven't reached him yet. Over the 9 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:42,960 S1: across the pond and his new book, Rethinking Christianity, Releases today. 10 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:45,479 S1: That may be the only thing you need to know, 11 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:49,279 S1: because this is a really, really good book and I'll 12 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:51,400 S1: tell you more about it. You can find a link 13 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:54,640 S1: at our website, Chris Fabry live.org. If you don't know 14 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:56,959 S1: how to say the last, well, the last name FAB 15 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:02,360 S1: as in Fab FABRY. Chris fabriclive dot ORG. Let me 16 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:05,000 S1: thank our team. Ryan McConaughey is doing all things technical. 17 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:08,520 S1: Tricia is our producer. Liza is helping out. Josh will 18 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:11,560 S1: be answering your calls. And let me thank you back. Fans, 19 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:14,399 S1: friends and partners. We are really close to our support 20 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:18,160 S1: goal for October and it's important that we hit these 21 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:22,240 S1: these goals that we have each month. And I thank 22 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:24,600 S1: you for just a few more days. As Nancy DeMoss 23 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:29,880 S1: Wolgemuth Advent devotional, Consider Jesus. It's a little book, a 24 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:32,840 S1: little green book that you're going to want to go 25 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:35,959 S1: through as you head toward the celebration of the incarnation, 26 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:38,560 S1: and then put it on your shelf or put it 27 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:42,880 S1: away with decorations, whatever you do at Christmas time, and 28 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:46,640 S1: bring it out again next year. So call or click through. 29 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:48,920 S1: Give a gift of any size. I would love to 30 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:51,120 S1: send this your way. I'd love for us to make 31 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:54,480 S1: our goal before Saturday, which is the end of the month. 32 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:59,870 S1: But if you call that number 95 Faber or go 33 00:01:59,870 --> 00:02:03,350 S1: to Chris Fabry live.org. You will see how you can 34 00:02:03,350 --> 00:02:06,150 S1: support us at the back fence. Let me read just 35 00:02:06,150 --> 00:02:08,630 S1: a little bit because we haven't done any of. I 36 00:02:08,630 --> 00:02:12,310 S1: haven't read a whole lot of. Considered Jesus by Nancy. 37 00:02:13,030 --> 00:02:16,310 S1: December 9th prior announcement. She will bear a son and 38 00:02:16,310 --> 00:02:18,630 S1: you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save 39 00:02:18,630 --> 00:02:23,310 S1: his people from their sins or Yeshua. We're getting to 40 00:02:23,350 --> 00:02:24,989 S1: that time of year when we start to see a 41 00:02:25,030 --> 00:02:28,910 S1: lot of top ten lists, recounting the most notable happenings 42 00:02:28,910 --> 00:02:31,750 S1: from the year that is quickly drawing to a close. 43 00:02:32,110 --> 00:02:34,630 S1: One of the lists that intrigues me is the annual 44 00:02:34,669 --> 00:02:38,030 S1: top ten list of baby names that parents selected for 45 00:02:38,030 --> 00:02:41,829 S1: their newborns during that year. It is fascinating to see 46 00:02:41,830 --> 00:02:45,230 S1: how the current year's choices compare with those from decades ago, 47 00:02:45,630 --> 00:02:47,910 S1: and how some of the names that were once so 48 00:02:47,910 --> 00:02:53,670 S1: commonplace are now almost completely unused. That list is a 49 00:02:53,710 --> 00:02:58,910 S1: cultural statement, obviously, But more personally, it speaks to the 50 00:02:58,910 --> 00:03:03,150 S1: exciting process of selecting a name for a child who's coming, 51 00:03:03,150 --> 00:03:07,790 S1: narrowing down the field of favorites until the expectant parents 52 00:03:07,830 --> 00:03:11,910 S1: land on one with just the right sound or rhythm 53 00:03:12,150 --> 00:03:17,230 S1: or meaning or family tie. You may hear them talking 54 00:03:17,230 --> 00:03:20,190 S1: about the name or being asked about it all the time, 55 00:03:20,230 --> 00:03:22,550 S1: often right up to the moment their son or daughter 56 00:03:22,669 --> 00:03:28,429 S1: is born. In Jesus case, however, the father had already 57 00:03:28,430 --> 00:03:33,630 S1: given him a name many centuries before his conception. Actually, 58 00:03:33,630 --> 00:03:36,150 S1: in the course of Scripture, numerous names were given to 59 00:03:36,190 --> 00:03:40,510 S1: this one who would come to earth in the fullness 60 00:03:40,510 --> 00:03:44,830 S1: of time. For to us a child is born, to 61 00:03:44,870 --> 00:03:47,550 S1: us a son is given, and the government shall be 62 00:03:47,550 --> 00:03:52,910 S1: upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, 63 00:03:53,150 --> 00:04:00,100 S1: Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. And Nancy goes 64 00:04:00,100 --> 00:04:02,420 S1: on to talk about the birth of Jesus, why it 65 00:04:02,420 --> 00:04:05,180 S1: was important on that day. And then there is a 66 00:04:05,180 --> 00:04:09,700 S1: prayer at the end of each of these devotionals. And 67 00:04:10,060 --> 00:04:14,820 S1: this is the chapter on his eternal deity. So that's 68 00:04:14,820 --> 00:04:17,900 S1: just a taste. I didn't even read you the whole thing. 69 00:04:18,300 --> 00:04:20,820 S1: That is just a taste of what you'll get in. 70 00:04:20,820 --> 00:04:25,100 S1: Consider Jesus meditations on the person and work of Christ, 71 00:04:25,140 --> 00:04:30,180 S1: a 31 day advent devotional from Nancy DeMoss, Wolgemuth and 72 00:04:30,180 --> 00:04:33,380 S1: your friends at the Radio Backyard Fence. Give a gift 73 00:04:33,380 --> 00:04:35,740 S1: of any size. Help us reach our goal by the 74 00:04:35,740 --> 00:04:38,340 S1: end of October and we'll send it your way. How 75 00:04:38,339 --> 00:04:42,580 S1: do I do it, Chris? I'll tell you. Eight. Seven. Seven. Nine. 76 00:04:42,620 --> 00:04:46,140 S1: I'm sorry. Eight. Six. Six. Come on, Ryan, you should 77 00:04:46,140 --> 00:04:58,300 S1: have corrected me. 866953 or go to Chris dot ORG 78 00:04:58,500 --> 00:05:01,500 S1: and thanks for your support. That gives us space to 79 00:05:01,500 --> 00:05:04,660 S1: have conversations like the one we're going to have today 80 00:05:04,660 --> 00:05:08,060 S1: at the back fence. Let me tell you a little 81 00:05:08,100 --> 00:05:11,620 S1: bit about Alister McGrath that you don't know, and one 82 00:05:11,620 --> 00:05:14,580 S1: of the reasons, one of my secret reasons for having 83 00:05:14,580 --> 00:05:18,380 S1: him on the program today. And I've told you this before, 84 00:05:18,380 --> 00:05:21,020 S1: in the last few weeks that I have been going 85 00:05:21,020 --> 00:05:26,740 S1: through the Treasury of David, which is titled differently. It's 86 00:05:26,740 --> 00:05:32,820 S1: a Crossway publication. It's two paperback books of the Treasury 87 00:05:32,820 --> 00:05:35,900 S1: of David, which is basically Charles Spurgeon goes through, takes 88 00:05:35,900 --> 00:05:37,820 S1: you through the Psalms, takes you by the hand and 89 00:05:37,820 --> 00:05:40,860 S1: leads you, leads you through the Psalms. And it was 90 00:05:40,860 --> 00:05:46,420 S1: edited by none other than J.I. Packer and Alister McGrath. 91 00:05:46,700 --> 00:05:48,260 S1: And I thought, well, if I get him on here, 92 00:05:48,260 --> 00:05:49,860 S1: I'm going to ask him some of the questions I 93 00:05:49,860 --> 00:05:54,060 S1: have about Charles Spurgeon. But here are some of the 94 00:05:54,060 --> 00:05:59,620 S1: titles written by our guest. Christian theology and introduction. The 95 00:05:59,620 --> 00:06:09,380 S1: Dawkins delusion. Question mark. The twilight of atheism. Christianity's dangerous idea. 96 00:06:10,180 --> 00:06:16,300 S1: A fine tuned universe. The intellectual world of C.S. Lewis. 97 00:06:16,940 --> 00:06:23,419 S1: The territories of human reason. And many others. He is 98 00:06:23,420 --> 00:06:30,620 S1: Doctor Alister McGrath. His book, Rethinking Christianity releases today. Doctor McGrath, 99 00:06:30,620 --> 00:06:32,580 S1: welcome to the program. How are you doing today? 100 00:06:32,700 --> 00:06:34,620 S2: Hey, I'm really glad to be with you. It's great 101 00:06:34,620 --> 00:06:36,740 S2: to have be able to talk about the book and 102 00:06:36,740 --> 00:06:37,580 S2: to meet you. 103 00:06:38,420 --> 00:06:41,660 S1: Absolutely. And I said one of my secret reasons for 104 00:06:41,660 --> 00:06:45,180 S1: having you on here is I've been going through the, uh, 105 00:06:45,180 --> 00:06:49,500 S1: the volumes that you and J.I. Packer edited for the 106 00:06:49,500 --> 00:06:53,970 S1: Crossway commentary series on Charles Spurgeon, the. They called it 107 00:06:53,970 --> 00:06:58,090 S1: The Treasury of David. It's something different, but can you 108 00:06:58,089 --> 00:07:01,010 S1: just take a minute and tell people why it's important 109 00:07:01,010 --> 00:07:03,330 S1: to read Charles Spurgeon on the Psalms? 110 00:07:04,130 --> 00:07:08,410 S2: Well, Hank Spurgeon is really a classic of classic preacher 111 00:07:08,410 --> 00:07:12,330 S2: who shows us wonderful ability to not simply understand a 112 00:07:12,330 --> 00:07:16,290 S2: biblical passage, but connect it with the lives of individual people. 113 00:07:16,450 --> 00:07:21,330 S2: And he does it using wonderful rhetoric, which doesn't distort scripture, 114 00:07:21,330 --> 00:07:24,290 S2: but rather helps you connect with it. So he's a 115 00:07:24,290 --> 00:07:27,050 S2: remarkable example of someone who, in effect, is like a, 116 00:07:27,050 --> 00:07:30,410 S2: a window into the world of scripture, helping you to 117 00:07:30,450 --> 00:07:32,690 S2: step into it and really see what it's all about 118 00:07:32,690 --> 00:07:35,250 S2: and the difference it makes to your life. So Spurgeon 119 00:07:35,250 --> 00:07:37,650 S2: is really a treasure as far as I'm concerned. 120 00:07:38,090 --> 00:07:40,810 S1: I, I so agree, and there are places where I'm 121 00:07:40,850 --> 00:07:44,250 S1: going through and I'm highlighting and there are words that 122 00:07:44,250 --> 00:07:47,690 S1: will come up that were used in the 1800s that 123 00:07:47,690 --> 00:07:50,890 S1: we don't use anymore today. And so I'm expanding my 124 00:07:50,890 --> 00:07:52,730 S1: vocabulary going through that. 125 00:07:54,250 --> 00:07:56,690 S2: Yes, it's great to step back into history and realize 126 00:07:56,690 --> 00:07:59,690 S2: words have changed, but nevertheless, the ideas are still there 127 00:07:59,690 --> 00:08:01,850 S2: and the enthusiasm is there as well. 128 00:08:02,130 --> 00:08:05,370 S1: Yes. All right. So the book that is out today 129 00:08:05,530 --> 00:08:10,610 S1: is just fantastic Rethinking Christianity A Thoughtful Guide to a 130 00:08:10,610 --> 00:08:15,250 S1: Life Changing Faith. You are known for your academic work, 131 00:08:15,290 --> 00:08:19,730 S1: and I'll give you give the longer introduction for you 132 00:08:19,730 --> 00:08:23,810 S1: in just a moment. But this is not an academic book. 133 00:08:23,810 --> 00:08:27,570 S1: It's very approachable, very accessible. And you did that for 134 00:08:27,570 --> 00:08:28,730 S1: a reason. Why? 135 00:08:29,570 --> 00:08:32,090 S2: Well, this is a book written from the heart. It's 136 00:08:32,090 --> 00:08:35,650 S2: in effect saying, look, we need to really rethink Christianity 137 00:08:35,650 --> 00:08:39,850 S2: in the sense of making sure we've really understood its depths, 138 00:08:39,850 --> 00:08:42,850 S2: its riches, so we can talk about more effectively to 139 00:08:42,890 --> 00:08:45,890 S2: our friends and to our family. And in many ways, 140 00:08:45,890 --> 00:08:49,449 S2: rethinking Christianity is saying we're at a cultural moment when 141 00:08:49,450 --> 00:08:52,530 S2: people are fed up with secularism. They want something that's 142 00:08:52,530 --> 00:08:56,170 S2: going to be lasting, not fleeting. And in many ways, 143 00:08:56,170 --> 00:08:59,650 S2: Christianity is exactly what they're looking for. This book is 144 00:08:59,650 --> 00:09:03,690 S2: about how we connect the gospel with this, this audience, 145 00:09:03,690 --> 00:09:07,570 S2: which is longing for meaning, for significance. And they haven't 146 00:09:07,570 --> 00:09:09,690 S2: found it yet. But you and I both know very 147 00:09:09,690 --> 00:09:12,449 S2: well they can find it in Christianity. 148 00:09:12,650 --> 00:09:15,570 S1: Yes. And we're going to unpack that today at the 149 00:09:15,570 --> 00:09:18,290 S1: back fence with Doctor Alister McGrath. You can find out 150 00:09:18,290 --> 00:09:23,810 S1: more about Rethinking Christianity at Chris fabry.org. Scroll down. You'll 151 00:09:23,809 --> 00:09:27,210 S1: see a link to that. It's out today. Today is 152 00:09:27,210 --> 00:09:30,130 S1: the day that it releases. So honored to have doctor 153 00:09:30,130 --> 00:09:34,850 S1: McGrath from Oxford, England. And we'll talk with him more 154 00:09:34,970 --> 00:09:48,120 S1: straight ahead on Moody Radio. Oh, I'm so excited to 155 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:52,360 S1: have Doctor Alister McGrath with us. He discovered Christianity while 156 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:55,840 S1: he was an undergraduate at Oxford University, gained first class 157 00:09:55,880 --> 00:10:00,480 S1: honours in chemistry, earned his first doctorate in biomedical sciences 158 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:04,760 S1: and two others in theology and intellectual history. Began his 159 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:08,920 S1: teaching career at Oxford in 1983 at the age of 30, 160 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:12,200 S1: and he now serves as senior research fellow at the 161 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:16,000 S1: Ian Ramsey Centre for Science and Religion at Oxford. His 162 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:20,199 S1: wife is Joanna. They've been married for 46 years. That's 163 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:22,280 S1: a long time to be married. That's a whole book 164 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:25,720 S1: right there. Doctor McGrath. Uh, and our featured resource is 165 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:30,240 S1: Rethinking Christianity A Thoughtful Guide to a Life Changing Faith. 166 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:35,760 S1: Find out more@chris.org. You're from St Louis. Made a big 167 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:39,400 S1: impact in your life, and you're from Belfast. You were 168 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:42,000 S1: like ten years old when he passed away, right? 169 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:45,560 S2: Well, that's right, and I didn't really know very much 170 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:48,120 S2: about C.S. Lewis. I mean, I think I knew he 171 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:50,480 S2: wrote a book about a lion or something like that, 172 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:52,840 S2: but that was about it. And then I became a 173 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:56,040 S2: Christian at Oxford University, and I was struggling a bit. 174 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:57,800 S2: I was trying to say, look, I don't understand this. 175 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:01,320 S2: I don't understand that. Help me. And my Christian friend said, look, 176 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:04,920 S2: please start reading C.S. Lewis. So I did, and I've 177 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:07,520 S2: been reading him ever since. He kind of way keeps 178 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,000 S2: on giving you stuff. You know, you read something, you 179 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:11,719 S2: read it again, you get more out of it the 180 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,280 S2: second time around. He's a he's a treasure, really. And 181 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:15,760 S2: I'm so glad I found him. 182 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:19,360 S1: Yes, 1974, I think it was. I saw that you 183 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:22,199 S1: you first picked up Lewis and then you've. 184 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:23,120 S2: Written a long time ago. 185 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:28,320 S1: Yeah. The definitive biography of his life. And so there's 186 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:30,400 S1: so much that I want to ask you. You got 187 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:32,560 S1: to come on here for a week or two so 188 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:35,040 S1: that I can ask you all these questions. But the 189 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:38,400 S1: Rethinking Christianity book, as I said, this is not an 190 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:42,359 S1: academic book, but it comes out of your academic career 191 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:46,070 S1: because in the final ten years, All of these students 192 00:11:46,070 --> 00:11:50,070 S1: from the US and from Europe and China would come 193 00:11:50,070 --> 00:11:52,790 S1: into your office and would sit down and would ask 194 00:11:52,790 --> 00:11:55,190 S1: you questions. Tell me about that. 195 00:11:56,230 --> 00:11:58,790 S2: Well, people had heard of me. They read my books, 196 00:11:58,790 --> 00:12:02,910 S2: or they'd seen my YouTube videos and they thought, this 197 00:12:02,910 --> 00:12:05,470 S2: guy is worth talking to. So they'd arrive from all 198 00:12:05,470 --> 00:12:07,630 S2: over the world and just say, look, can we talk 199 00:12:07,630 --> 00:12:11,830 S2: about Christianity? And what was really interesting is that the 200 00:12:11,830 --> 00:12:15,030 S2: questions changed over time. To begin with, it was, how 201 00:12:15,030 --> 00:12:19,150 S2: can an intelligent person be a Christian? But later became. 202 00:12:19,630 --> 00:12:22,550 S2: Tell us about how Christianity makes sense of me. Tell 203 00:12:22,550 --> 00:12:25,630 S2: me about how Christianity creates meaning. In other words, these 204 00:12:25,630 --> 00:12:29,750 S2: guys were beginning to realize secularism didn't deliver what they 205 00:12:29,750 --> 00:12:32,790 S2: really wanted, what they really needed. And I was able 206 00:12:32,790 --> 00:12:36,309 S2: to talk through with them how Christianity connected with the 207 00:12:36,309 --> 00:12:39,550 S2: deep questions of life, and try out some ways of 208 00:12:39,950 --> 00:12:43,189 S2: expressing this to help them grasp it. And in many ways, 209 00:12:43,309 --> 00:12:47,830 S2: this book, Rethinking Christianity, is based on these conversations. It's 210 00:12:47,830 --> 00:12:51,110 S2: the approaches I found worked well with these visitors, and 211 00:12:51,110 --> 00:12:53,750 S2: it's written up as a book to help anybody else 212 00:12:53,750 --> 00:12:54,950 S2: who wants to read it. 213 00:12:55,309 --> 00:12:57,870 S1: Okay. Hit the Wayback Machine and go back to the 214 00:12:57,870 --> 00:13:02,189 S1: 1960s when you are a teenage atheist. What did you 215 00:13:02,190 --> 00:13:03,910 S1: think about Christianity then? 216 00:13:04,750 --> 00:13:08,030 S2: Not very much. I think I felt that Christianity was 217 00:13:08,030 --> 00:13:10,710 S2: a relic from the past. I couldn't see the difference 218 00:13:10,710 --> 00:13:13,590 S2: it made to anybody. I looked at the Christian creeds 219 00:13:13,590 --> 00:13:17,430 S2: and they were unintelligible, and I just couldn't see why 220 00:13:17,429 --> 00:13:20,470 S2: anybody in their right mind would want to do this 221 00:13:20,470 --> 00:13:23,309 S2: sort of thing. And of course, I was a scientist, 222 00:13:23,309 --> 00:13:27,469 S2: and I was told by influential people that science and 223 00:13:27,470 --> 00:13:30,310 S2: religion were at war with each other. So it just 224 00:13:30,309 --> 00:13:32,430 S2: seemed to me obvious I would have to be an atheist. 225 00:13:32,429 --> 00:13:36,030 S2: So that's really where this motivation came from. But it 226 00:13:36,030 --> 00:13:38,590 S2: didn't stay that way because when I went up to 227 00:13:38,630 --> 00:13:42,750 S2: Oxford University, I began to realize things just weren't that simple. 228 00:13:42,750 --> 00:13:44,750 S2: And I began to rethink everything. 229 00:13:45,790 --> 00:13:48,710 S1: Yes. And that's what you're helping us do here today. What? 230 00:13:48,750 --> 00:13:52,150 S1: What turned you? Was it reading Lewis? Was there a 231 00:13:52,190 --> 00:13:54,990 S1: spark that turned you around to make you think? Wait 232 00:13:54,990 --> 00:13:57,990 S1: a minute. Maybe there's something more here with Christianity. 233 00:13:59,070 --> 00:14:02,190 S2: It wasn't so much Lewis. It was Christians at Oxford 234 00:14:02,190 --> 00:14:04,830 S2: who I talked to. And as I talked to them 235 00:14:04,830 --> 00:14:07,830 S2: about their faith, I began to realize I had not 236 00:14:07,830 --> 00:14:13,350 S2: understood what Christianity was. I had rejected a caricature of Christianity, 237 00:14:13,390 --> 00:14:16,309 S2: not the real thing. And it was really my Christian 238 00:14:16,309 --> 00:14:20,470 S2: friends explaining to me what Christianity really was. That made 239 00:14:20,470 --> 00:14:24,070 S2: me realize, first of all, I'd misunderstood it, and secondly, 240 00:14:24,070 --> 00:14:28,190 S2: that what they were describing sounded really interesting and maybe 241 00:14:28,190 --> 00:14:31,910 S2: even exciting. So my Christian friends really helped me to, 242 00:14:32,190 --> 00:14:36,470 S2: to realize what Christianity was. And so I gladly stepped 243 00:14:36,470 --> 00:14:38,950 S2: into this new world. And I've been living in that 244 00:14:38,950 --> 00:14:40,230 S2: world ever since. 245 00:14:40,620 --> 00:14:45,740 S1: And that has parallels in for today that many people 246 00:14:45,740 --> 00:14:49,220 S1: have kind of walked away from the faith or deconstructed 247 00:14:49,220 --> 00:14:52,460 S1: whatever you want to call it. But what they've rejected 248 00:14:52,460 --> 00:14:58,140 S1: is not Jesus or classic Christianity. They have rejected the caricature. 249 00:14:58,180 --> 00:14:59,260 S1: Do you agree with that? 250 00:15:00,020 --> 00:15:02,340 S2: I think I do. I think I very often people 251 00:15:02,820 --> 00:15:05,460 S2: don't really understand what Christianity is. And that was my 252 00:15:05,460 --> 00:15:08,260 S2: situation as a teenager. But a lot of people fall 253 00:15:08,260 --> 00:15:11,940 S2: into the same category today. And I think one lesson 254 00:15:11,940 --> 00:15:14,700 S2: I've learned, which might be helpful is this one of 255 00:15:14,700 --> 00:15:18,300 S2: the best defenses of Christianity is simply to explain what 256 00:15:18,300 --> 00:15:21,940 S2: Christianity really is, because it's quite likely the person you're 257 00:15:21,940 --> 00:15:24,380 S2: talking to will have a kind of very muddled or 258 00:15:24,420 --> 00:15:28,260 S2: confused understanding of what Christianity is all about. So we 259 00:15:28,260 --> 00:15:31,580 S2: explain it and show the difference it makes to lives. 260 00:15:31,620 --> 00:15:34,500 S2: And people very often will say, we'd like to hear 261 00:15:34,500 --> 00:15:35,500 S2: more about this. 262 00:15:36,700 --> 00:15:40,060 S1: Okay, let's say I sit down in your office today. 263 00:15:40,460 --> 00:15:44,140 S1: And I say, you know, I've been reading Dawkins, I've 264 00:15:44,140 --> 00:15:48,100 S1: been reading Hitchens. It doesn't Christianity doesn't make any sense. 265 00:15:48,140 --> 00:15:51,740 S1: You know, I want to be a scientist. This is 266 00:15:51,740 --> 00:15:53,900 S1: where I'm coming from. What do you say to me? 267 00:15:54,660 --> 00:15:57,500 S2: Well, I would say, um, let's just talk about this 268 00:15:57,500 --> 00:16:00,180 S2: for a while. I mean, you're a scientist. That's great. 269 00:16:00,180 --> 00:16:02,820 S2: But hey, you know something? There's a problem here. Science 270 00:16:02,820 --> 00:16:05,580 S2: isn't able to answer some of the really big questions 271 00:16:05,580 --> 00:16:08,180 S2: of life. Like, um, what is the meaning of life? 272 00:16:08,180 --> 00:16:10,780 S2: Or what is the nature of good or, um, what 273 00:16:10,780 --> 00:16:13,700 S2: is our purpose in life? So if you're saying we 274 00:16:13,700 --> 00:16:17,060 S2: rely only on science, you in effect are unable to 275 00:16:17,100 --> 00:16:20,460 S2: answer those questions. What I'm saying to you is Christianity 276 00:16:20,460 --> 00:16:24,340 S2: is able to say, look, um, we can tell you 277 00:16:24,340 --> 00:16:27,820 S2: about what meaning is, what value is and things like that. 278 00:16:27,820 --> 00:16:30,700 S2: And basically what you've done is you've locked yourself into 279 00:16:30,740 --> 00:16:34,100 S2: an impoverished, a very limited view of reality, which does 280 00:16:34,100 --> 00:16:37,500 S2: not answer the really big questions of life. Why are 281 00:16:37,500 --> 00:16:39,180 S2: you going to do is to ask you to step 282 00:16:39,180 --> 00:16:42,980 S2: outside your comfort zone and just begin to think through 283 00:16:43,220 --> 00:16:47,660 S2: what Christianity might say to you that would suddenly open 284 00:16:47,660 --> 00:16:50,500 S2: you up to a world of meaning and truth and 285 00:16:50,500 --> 00:16:54,780 S2: purpose and significance. Does that sound interesting? Because if so, 286 00:16:54,900 --> 00:16:56,260 S2: we'll talk more about this. 287 00:16:56,700 --> 00:16:59,940 S1: Significance and fulfillment. I mean, that's what that's what we're, 288 00:16:59,940 --> 00:17:04,260 S1: we're crying for in a world where the, the internet 289 00:17:04,260 --> 00:17:07,859 S1: gives us every answer to everything that we can ask 290 00:17:07,859 --> 00:17:11,540 S1: it except for those deep issues. And that's what I 291 00:17:11,540 --> 00:17:14,780 S1: love about what you've written here in Rethinking Christianity, because 292 00:17:14,780 --> 00:17:18,380 S1: there's somebody listening today who is going to be at 293 00:17:18,380 --> 00:17:22,820 S1: Thanksgiving or at Christmas with a friend or a relative 294 00:17:23,140 --> 00:17:28,340 S1: who fits into the whole Dawkins rubric and who says, 295 00:17:28,340 --> 00:17:31,740 S1: you crazy Christians, you're, you know, check your brain at 296 00:17:31,740 --> 00:17:35,700 S1: the door and you don't think anymore. You actually you 297 00:17:35,700 --> 00:17:40,410 S1: actually written about Dawkins and and you say and other 298 00:17:40,410 --> 00:17:43,530 S1: books say this too, but that Dawkins has actually led 299 00:17:43,530 --> 00:17:45,530 S1: people to Jesus. Is that true? 300 00:17:46,330 --> 00:17:48,889 S2: I'm afraid it is. I know it sounds paradoxical, but 301 00:17:48,930 --> 00:17:51,970 S2: here's how it worked out. People would read Richard Dawkins 302 00:17:51,970 --> 00:17:55,970 S2: and say, well, this sounds very strange. Um, it's not 303 00:17:55,970 --> 00:17:58,369 S2: that simple, is it? Um, and they would look at 304 00:17:58,369 --> 00:18:01,010 S2: his critique of Christianity. They would say, that doesn't really 305 00:18:01,010 --> 00:18:04,130 S2: match up with the Christianity I've heard about. I'm going 306 00:18:04,130 --> 00:18:06,850 S2: to check this out for myself. And I've met so 307 00:18:06,850 --> 00:18:09,850 S2: many people who in effect, have said, thank you, Richard Dawkins, 308 00:18:09,850 --> 00:18:12,570 S2: for getting me to check out Christianity. I've done that. 309 00:18:12,570 --> 00:18:15,410 S2: It's not what you say it is. It's wonderful. I'm 310 00:18:15,410 --> 00:18:19,210 S2: a Christian now. Thank you for the introduction. So it's very, 311 00:18:19,210 --> 00:18:22,210 S2: very interesting. I'm not quite sure how Richard Dawkins reacts 312 00:18:22,210 --> 00:18:22,810 S2: to this. 313 00:18:23,810 --> 00:18:28,690 S1: Well, my guess is that he probably he probably just 314 00:18:28,690 --> 00:18:31,889 S1: keeps on going. You know, he probably just moves ahead 315 00:18:32,170 --> 00:18:36,130 S1: because he's very I don't want to put any any 316 00:18:36,170 --> 00:18:40,970 S1: judgment on him, but to me, his worldview is a. 317 00:18:41,250 --> 00:18:44,690 S1: Though he thinks it and posits it as a very 318 00:18:44,690 --> 00:18:48,170 S1: free thinking. I'm just a scientist. I'm looking for, you know, 319 00:18:48,210 --> 00:18:54,050 S1: the truth in science. It's almost a limiting viewpoint when 320 00:18:54,050 --> 00:18:57,730 S1: you look at, you know, the world and purpose and 321 00:18:57,730 --> 00:18:59,170 S1: meaning and all of that. 322 00:19:00,369 --> 00:19:03,050 S2: Well, that's absolutely right. It's very limited. I mean, let's 323 00:19:03,050 --> 00:19:06,330 S2: give an analogy. Think of a set of spectacles. Science 324 00:19:06,369 --> 00:19:09,530 S2: is one lens. Christianity is the other lens. If you 325 00:19:09,530 --> 00:19:12,490 S2: just look through a scientific lens, all you see is 326 00:19:12,490 --> 00:19:17,570 S2: how our universe functions. You don't see anything about meaning, significance, purpose, 327 00:19:17,570 --> 00:19:20,690 S2: or value. If you look through the world at a 328 00:19:20,690 --> 00:19:25,369 S2: scientific and a religious lens together, you get depth of field. 329 00:19:25,369 --> 00:19:29,050 S2: You see. You see three dimensions. And that's what we 330 00:19:29,050 --> 00:19:32,209 S2: need to encourage people to do to realize science isn't 331 00:19:32,250 --> 00:19:34,680 S2: enough on its own. It's great, but you need more 332 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:38,800 S2: than that. And Christianity gives you that extra dimension, telling 333 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:41,760 S2: you what things are all about, what you are all about. 334 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:46,119 S2: And that's why Christianity builds on science not going against it, 335 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:49,560 S2: but going beyond it into the world of meaning that 336 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:53,040 S2: really is there. But science can't access it. 337 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:57,600 S1: Isn't that what Lewis put his finger on that was 338 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:01,800 S1: able to, uh, when you talk about time and space 339 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:06,480 S1: and God being sovereign and outside of time and space 340 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,959 S1: and eternity and all of these big concepts that Lewis 341 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:14,080 S1: was able to bring that down to us and help 342 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:18,480 S1: us wrap our minds a little bit, at least around 343 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:19,880 S1: some of those concepts. 344 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:22,640 S2: Well, he did he did it wonderfully. In fact, I 345 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:25,159 S2: wish he was here right now because he would say 346 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,320 S2: some wonderful things. But Lewis is making a very, very 347 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:32,680 S2: good point, which is that actually secularism really is blind 348 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:36,120 S2: to a wonderful world of meaning and significance. And what 349 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:38,280 S2: we've got to help people to do is to realize 350 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:41,439 S2: that world is there, and help them to step into 351 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:44,040 S2: it and realize the difference that this makes. 352 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:48,480 S1: I find it interesting that Lewis was born in Belfast 353 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:52,000 S1: and so were you, and you followed in his footsteps. 354 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,080 S1: Did that have any bearing on you deciding? Yeah, I 355 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:56,639 S1: want to find out more about this guy. 356 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:01,320 S2: Well, I think I discovered Lewis because a friend recommended 357 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:04,160 S2: me to read him, and I didn't really know very 358 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:05,919 S2: much about him when I began to read him. I 359 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:09,080 S2: discovered that later. But what I realized was here was 360 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:12,800 S2: somebody who wrote beautifully, who said some very, very helpful 361 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:16,240 S2: things and actually sorted out many of the questions I 362 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,800 S2: had as a young Christian uncertain about my faith and 363 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:23,640 S2: wanting to find out more. So as I began to realise, 364 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:25,680 S2: Lewis and I had some things in common that that 365 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:28,359 S2: added to my interest in him. But I have to 366 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:32,240 S2: tell you, really, his wonderful Or a count of Christianity is. 367 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,400 S2: Answers to atheist questions really is a thing that made 368 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:36,679 S2: him so important to me. 369 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:41,360 S1: Yes. Well, it's the same journey that you traveled as well. Uh, 370 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:43,679 S1: this is off the topic, but I've got to ask you, 371 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:47,000 S1: is there anything in all of your study of Lewis 372 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,880 S1: and reading his letters and books and everything? Is there 373 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:55,440 S1: anything that we don't know about Lewis that really you 374 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:56,680 S1: think we ought to know? 375 00:21:57,800 --> 00:21:59,920 S2: I think there are many things we would like to know, 376 00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:02,560 S2: and we'd like to know more about the the mechanics 377 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,880 S2: of his conversion. When did that happen? When did that happen? 378 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,280 S2: Are you sure about that connection or things like that? 379 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:12,280 S2: But that that's a scholar saying I'd like more detail. 380 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,760 S2: And as an ordinary Christian, I just appreciate so much 381 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:19,280 S2: what he says about the vitality of the gospel, the 382 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:23,480 S2: the importance of faith and the link between Christianity and 383 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,160 S2: this wonderful world of meaning and value and significance. So 384 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:29,950 S2: I'd like more, but I'm very happy with what I've got. 385 00:22:30,630 --> 00:22:34,710 S1: Losing his mother was really important to his childhood, wasn't it? 386 00:22:35,230 --> 00:22:37,470 S2: It was indeed. That was terrible. I mean, she died 387 00:22:37,470 --> 00:22:43,430 S2: of abdominal cancer. And I think Lewis's childhood security simply evaporated. 388 00:22:43,670 --> 00:22:47,030 S2: And he really, from that point onwards, didn't feel he 389 00:22:47,030 --> 00:22:51,590 S2: belonged anywhere. And his father, in a moment of madness, said, 390 00:22:51,630 --> 00:22:54,190 S2: let's send Lewis away to school. That will help him. 391 00:22:54,550 --> 00:22:56,990 S2: So he goes off to boarding school and is cut 392 00:22:56,990 --> 00:22:59,430 S2: off from his family and his friends. So I think 393 00:22:59,470 --> 00:23:03,070 S2: Lewis really had a pretty rough ride. His father meant well, 394 00:23:03,070 --> 00:23:05,710 S2: but looking back, it wasn't the right thing to do. 395 00:23:06,630 --> 00:23:09,270 S1: What I want you to define a word that's in 396 00:23:09,270 --> 00:23:15,030 S1: the title Rethinking Christianity. Define rethinking. What do you mean 397 00:23:16,510 --> 00:23:17,830 S1: by rethinking? 398 00:23:17,830 --> 00:23:22,149 S2: I mean this, I mean making sure we haven't locked 399 00:23:22,150 --> 00:23:28,150 S2: ourselves into an inadequate, very limited account of Christianity. We've 400 00:23:28,190 --> 00:23:33,389 S2: got to make sure we've appreciated Christianity for all, for 401 00:23:33,390 --> 00:23:36,630 S2: all it's worth. In other words, realizing not simply its 402 00:23:36,670 --> 00:23:40,389 S2: intellectual brilliance, but the way it connects up with lots 403 00:23:40,390 --> 00:23:43,270 S2: of deep things. Like, as I was saying earlier, our 404 00:23:43,270 --> 00:23:46,590 S2: quest for meaning and significance and purpose. And to this book, 405 00:23:46,630 --> 00:23:48,670 S2: in many ways, it's saying, look, have you really thought 406 00:23:48,670 --> 00:23:51,750 S2: this through properly? If not, don't worry. I'm going to 407 00:23:51,750 --> 00:23:54,390 S2: talk you through all these issues. And I hope that 408 00:23:54,390 --> 00:23:57,830 S2: by the end of this you'll feel, I really understand this. 409 00:23:57,830 --> 00:24:01,629 S2: I really appreciate this all the more. So it's rethinking 410 00:24:01,630 --> 00:24:05,469 S2: in a good sense, not reconstructing, but making sure we've 411 00:24:05,470 --> 00:24:10,430 S2: really appreciated the wonderful treasure of the gospel that God 412 00:24:10,430 --> 00:24:12,149 S2: has entrusted to each of us. 413 00:24:12,590 --> 00:24:15,710 S1: And one of the big knocks against Christianity is you 414 00:24:15,750 --> 00:24:18,710 S1: grew up with this. You believe because your parents did 415 00:24:18,750 --> 00:24:22,430 S1: or your culture. This is your Christian culture. And that 416 00:24:22,430 --> 00:24:25,310 S1: can be true. We can just kind of go along 417 00:24:25,310 --> 00:24:28,430 S1: with it and say we are Christian because we live 418 00:24:28,430 --> 00:24:31,990 S1: in a Christian nation, or however you define that. What 419 00:24:31,990 --> 00:24:36,910 S1: you're saying is no. Look deeper than just the cultural ties, 420 00:24:36,910 --> 00:24:38,430 S1: the songs that you sang. 421 00:24:39,550 --> 00:24:41,830 S2: Well, I think that's right. I'm not just talking about 422 00:24:42,350 --> 00:24:45,070 S2: the songs you sing or the ideas you kind of 423 00:24:45,109 --> 00:24:47,909 S2: take on board. It's more about a matter of the heart, 424 00:24:48,430 --> 00:24:51,670 S2: where in effect you're saying, deep down I know not 425 00:24:51,670 --> 00:24:54,870 S2: simply I understand this, but actually it's mine. It's part 426 00:24:54,869 --> 00:24:58,190 S2: of my life. It's who I am. It's this deep commitment, 427 00:24:58,230 --> 00:25:00,870 S2: not simply to a set of ideas, but to a 428 00:25:00,910 --> 00:25:04,149 S2: living Lord. That's a very different idea. And so I 429 00:25:04,150 --> 00:25:06,470 S2: think all of us find in our journey of faith 430 00:25:06,470 --> 00:25:09,630 S2: that we go deeper. We begin to realize more about 431 00:25:09,630 --> 00:25:12,710 S2: what this is all about, and it transforms us going 432 00:25:12,750 --> 00:25:16,270 S2: deeper and understanding what that really means. 433 00:25:16,790 --> 00:25:21,070 S1: Doctor Alister McGrath is with us today. He says Christianity 434 00:25:21,070 --> 00:25:26,340 S1: is life changing. It is has an existential payload. I'm 435 00:25:26,340 --> 00:25:28,740 S1: going to get him to help us understand that. And 436 00:25:28,740 --> 00:25:31,179 S1: I'm going to open the phone lines to here's your 437 00:25:31,180 --> 00:25:35,140 S1: opportunity to talk to Alice. Doctor Alister McGrath. Maybe you're 438 00:25:35,140 --> 00:25:38,780 S1: an atheist. Maybe you say this Christianity thing is all 439 00:25:38,820 --> 00:25:45,060 S1: bunk and I don't give us a call (877) 548-3675. Or 440 00:25:45,060 --> 00:25:52,100 S1: you have a friend who's struggling to believe (877) 548-3675. 441 00:26:03,220 --> 00:26:04,620 S3: You have a skeptic in your life. 442 00:26:04,900 --> 00:26:10,459 S1: An atheist and agnostic who constantly pushes back about Christianity, 443 00:26:11,340 --> 00:26:15,220 S1: the sky fairy, and just the imaginary god that you 444 00:26:15,220 --> 00:26:19,740 S1: have up there. Or maybe you have been wounded by 445 00:26:19,740 --> 00:26:23,580 S1: religion in some way. There is real hope and help 446 00:26:23,700 --> 00:26:26,659 S1: in the new book by Doctor Alister McGrath, it's titled 447 00:26:26,660 --> 00:26:31,660 S1: Rethinking Christianity. It comes out today and I'm so glad 448 00:26:31,660 --> 00:26:35,020 S1: to have him on at the Back Fence, direct from Oxford. 449 00:26:35,300 --> 00:26:37,419 S1: You said this just a minute ago, and you say 450 00:26:37,420 --> 00:26:40,420 S1: it in the book that Christianity is more than a 451 00:26:40,420 --> 00:26:44,420 S1: set of ideas, and that is important, that we just 452 00:26:44,420 --> 00:26:47,699 S1: don't posit. We don't talk to the head of the 453 00:26:47,700 --> 00:26:51,699 S1: person and say, Here's Jesus. He lived. He was a 454 00:26:51,820 --> 00:26:55,980 S1: real human being who was fully God and fully man, 455 00:26:55,980 --> 00:27:00,980 S1: who lived a life, who taught, who died and was resurrected. 456 00:27:00,980 --> 00:27:03,980 S1: These are all the miracles you know. Here's the ideas 457 00:27:03,980 --> 00:27:06,780 S1: about him died for your sins. We could say that, 458 00:27:07,140 --> 00:27:11,100 S1: but it's more than just those ideas and the forgiveness 459 00:27:11,100 --> 00:27:13,660 S1: that we can have, the reconciliation that we can have 460 00:27:13,660 --> 00:27:17,540 S1: with God the Father. There's there's more of the heart 461 00:27:17,540 --> 00:27:19,820 S1: of this that you're getting to talk about that. 462 00:27:20,700 --> 00:27:23,169 S2: Well, I think we need to understand that Christianity isn't 463 00:27:23,170 --> 00:27:27,450 S2: about changing our ideas as if it just relates to 464 00:27:27,490 --> 00:27:32,010 S2: ideas rattling around inside our heads. It's about a transformative 465 00:27:32,010 --> 00:27:34,810 S2: way of thinking about life. It's about a new vision 466 00:27:34,810 --> 00:27:37,490 S2: of who we are, what the world is all about. 467 00:27:37,690 --> 00:27:40,850 S2: And if you like, it's not simply a way of thinking, 468 00:27:40,850 --> 00:27:43,250 S2: it's a way of living as well. And what we 469 00:27:43,290 --> 00:27:45,650 S2: find is that Christianity gives us this vision of how 470 00:27:45,650 --> 00:27:49,290 S2: we can live a meaningful and purposeful life, often under 471 00:27:49,290 --> 00:27:52,490 S2: quite difficult circumstances. So what I want to say to 472 00:27:52,530 --> 00:27:56,609 S2: all listening is this. Yes, Christianity does have ideas, but 473 00:27:56,609 --> 00:28:00,730 S2: the really important thing is these ideas end up leading 474 00:28:00,730 --> 00:28:02,730 S2: us into a new way of action, a new way 475 00:28:02,730 --> 00:28:06,690 S2: of living that makes sense of who we are, that 476 00:28:06,690 --> 00:28:09,369 S2: helps us to live meaningfully in this world, and gives 477 00:28:09,369 --> 00:28:12,209 S2: us a vision of the difference that we can make 478 00:28:12,250 --> 00:28:14,250 S2: in this world. So there are a lot of things 479 00:28:14,250 --> 00:28:17,330 S2: there to unpack, but it's a big picture, not just 480 00:28:17,330 --> 00:28:18,450 S2: a set of ideas. 481 00:28:18,770 --> 00:28:22,890 S1: Because the demons believe and tremble. You know, the demons 482 00:28:22,890 --> 00:28:25,770 S1: believe the big ideas about who God is, about who 483 00:28:25,770 --> 00:28:29,170 S1: Jesus is and their eternal destiny. But it does not 484 00:28:29,170 --> 00:28:32,890 S1: make a difference in the way that they act now. 485 00:28:33,570 --> 00:28:35,609 S1: But it can make a difference in the way that 486 00:28:35,609 --> 00:28:38,450 S1: we live out our lives. That's what you're saying? 487 00:28:38,930 --> 00:28:40,650 S2: That's what I'm saying. I mean, what you do is 488 00:28:40,650 --> 00:28:42,930 S2: you see these ideas and you think, oh my goodness, 489 00:28:42,970 --> 00:28:45,650 S2: if these are right, this changes everything. That was what 490 00:28:45,650 --> 00:28:48,010 S2: I discovered when I was an atheist becoming a Christian, 491 00:28:48,050 --> 00:28:51,250 S2: that I suddenly realized, if these things are right, it 492 00:28:51,250 --> 00:28:53,930 S2: opens up a whole new way of seeing the world, 493 00:28:53,970 --> 00:28:57,010 S2: seeing myself a new way of living, and begin to 494 00:28:57,050 --> 00:29:00,130 S2: realize this is not just about ideas inside your head. 495 00:29:00,170 --> 00:29:03,450 S2: This is about, in effect, a whole life thing. And 496 00:29:03,450 --> 00:29:06,210 S2: that's why I think it's so important to to see 497 00:29:06,210 --> 00:29:08,130 S2: that deeper level of engagement. 498 00:29:08,130 --> 00:29:09,370 S3: And it doesn't just. 499 00:29:09,370 --> 00:29:13,130 S1: Help us fit things together. It doesn't just help us 500 00:29:13,130 --> 00:29:17,010 S1: make sense of things, though. It does. You say that 501 00:29:17,010 --> 00:29:21,250 S1: it's it's life changing. It's an existential payload. What does 502 00:29:21,250 --> 00:29:21,890 S1: that mean? 503 00:29:22,730 --> 00:29:25,250 S2: I use that word existential payload to try and get 504 00:29:25,250 --> 00:29:29,170 S2: across the idea that Christianity doesn't just say, here's how 505 00:29:29,170 --> 00:29:32,170 S2: you make sense of things. It's about saying, here is 506 00:29:32,170 --> 00:29:35,170 S2: a new way of seeing yourself, a new way of 507 00:29:35,170 --> 00:29:38,930 S2: understanding what life is all about, a new way of living, 508 00:29:38,930 --> 00:29:43,490 S2: a new way of embracing a satisfying and deeply fulfilling 509 00:29:43,530 --> 00:29:46,850 S2: vision of life. In other words, it's not just about 510 00:29:46,850 --> 00:29:50,970 S2: changing your thought. It's about changing your whole lifestyle, the 511 00:29:50,970 --> 00:29:54,650 S2: way you inhabit this world, the way you hope about 512 00:29:54,650 --> 00:29:57,810 S2: going to be in heaven with God, all these things. 513 00:29:58,010 --> 00:30:01,690 S2: So it's in effect. Yes, there is this, if you like, 514 00:30:01,690 --> 00:30:05,970 S2: belief side of things, but there's also this transformative side 515 00:30:05,970 --> 00:30:09,850 S2: of things whereby these beliefs change us into new people 516 00:30:09,850 --> 00:30:12,090 S2: with a new vision of who we are. The difference 517 00:30:12,090 --> 00:30:14,570 S2: that we can make and where we're going. So it's 518 00:30:14,570 --> 00:30:15,610 S2: a big idea. 519 00:30:15,850 --> 00:30:21,240 S1: Okay, so the the caricature of Christianity can can torpedo us, 520 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,440 S1: can take us down if we believe that if we 521 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,400 S1: if we try to say, okay, so this is what 522 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,600 S1: Christianity is. If we believe in that and, and trust 523 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:34,560 S1: in that and it's not true, then no wonder our 524 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:38,680 S1: faith crumbles. What what do you say to the student 525 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:43,040 S1: or anyone who's listening right now who says, I signed 526 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,840 S1: up for God to, to do things in my life 527 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:51,560 S1: for healing, for wholeness, to make me happy, to make 528 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,960 S1: me healthy. And it hadn't turned out that way. And 529 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,440 S1: so he must not be there. What do you say 530 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,640 S1: to that person who's, who's coming up against some some 531 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:02,440 S1: job like experiences? 532 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:05,920 S2: Well, I'd want to say I understand exactly where you are. 533 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,560 S2: And it's a, it's a very, um, it's a very 534 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:13,320 S2: unsettling experience. What I'd want to say to you is 535 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:17,680 S2: hang in there and start doing some rethinking to Begin 536 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,600 S2: to try and see things in a different way. God 537 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,480 S2: isn't a kind of pill that gives you life new meaning. 538 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:29,040 S2: It's rather about God being with you always. When you 539 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,760 S2: go through dark times, when you walk through the valley 540 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,840 S2: of the shadow of death, knowing that God is always 541 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,160 S2: there with you, guiding you, upholding you. It's not just 542 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,280 S2: about ideas. It's not just about giving you an easy 543 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,720 S2: fix or anything like that. It's much more about living 544 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:49,000 S2: in a difficult and very often challenging world. But knowing 545 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,760 S2: that even though we have to face all these challenges, 546 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:55,160 S2: all these difficulties, we are not doing this on our 547 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,040 S2: own or in our own strength, that there is a 548 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:01,440 S2: loving and living God who journeys with us and holds 549 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,160 S2: us as we go through these. Yes, we go through 550 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:07,920 S2: dark times, through bad times, but God is there with 551 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,440 S2: us as we travel through those times. So it's one 552 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:13,280 S2: of these things where very often you have to take 553 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,480 S2: a long view as you begin to realise that God 554 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,320 S2: isn't just going to change your life in 10s and 555 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:23,680 S2: everything's better. It's about a process of transformation in which 556 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,360 S2: you gradually see things in a new way. You become 557 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,640 S2: a new person, and you see the whole business of 558 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,040 S2: life in a new and exciting way. 559 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,840 S1: Okay. So did that happen to you then? Did you 560 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:38,200 S1: at when you were a teenage atheist and then you 561 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,680 S1: came to Christ and you read Lewis when you were 562 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:45,480 S1: about 21? Was there a process that you went through 563 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:50,680 S1: when bad things happened to young Alistair and you had 564 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,360 S1: to make a. You had to not just have a 565 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:58,560 S1: thinking religion or an idea religion, but a, a religion 566 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:02,120 S1: that was shoe leather, which is what you've written about here. 567 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,760 S1: Can you unpack that for me with your life? 568 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:07,480 S2: Well, I think certainly one of the things I found 569 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,800 S2: when I became a Christian is that it helped me 570 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,160 S2: to make sense of things and make sense of myself. 571 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:14,600 S2: But it also, I think this is the really important 572 00:33:14,670 --> 00:33:18,550 S2: point gave me. Gave me a toolkit for engaging with 573 00:33:18,550 --> 00:33:22,390 S2: the challenges, the pains, the problems of life. And instead 574 00:33:22,390 --> 00:33:26,550 S2: of saying, oh, these things are just a meaningless, a pointless. Um, 575 00:33:26,590 --> 00:33:29,510 S2: I can't do anything with them. See them as ways 576 00:33:29,510 --> 00:33:32,790 S2: in which we can grow as people. That these are 577 00:33:32,910 --> 00:33:35,350 S2: things that happen to everyone. But if you're a Christian, 578 00:33:35,350 --> 00:33:37,510 S2: you can see them in a new way. They can 579 00:33:37,510 --> 00:33:40,790 S2: help you become a better, a wiser person and enable 580 00:33:40,790 --> 00:33:43,390 S2: you to help other people cope with them as well. 581 00:33:43,630 --> 00:33:45,390 S2: And that's always been one of the things I've appreciated 582 00:33:45,390 --> 00:33:48,350 S2: about Christianity. It's not just, in effect, giving you a 583 00:33:48,350 --> 00:33:51,030 S2: vision of what life is all about. It's helping you 584 00:33:51,030 --> 00:33:54,670 S2: realise that you have a role to play in helping 585 00:33:54,710 --> 00:33:58,150 S2: other people deal with these things as well. And so 586 00:33:58,190 --> 00:34:00,230 S2: what Christians very often will do is to talk to 587 00:34:00,270 --> 00:34:03,790 S2: each other about how they dealt with certain challenges, how 588 00:34:03,790 --> 00:34:07,350 S2: they were able to use these to grow, to understand 589 00:34:07,350 --> 00:34:10,549 S2: more about who they were, what they could be doing. 590 00:34:10,550 --> 00:34:14,190 S2: But above all, they expand their the vision of life 591 00:34:14,190 --> 00:34:16,950 S2: as they go through these dark times. And for me, 592 00:34:16,950 --> 00:34:19,310 S2: one of the great things about the Christian faith is 593 00:34:19,310 --> 00:34:21,870 S2: that God is with us as we go through these 594 00:34:21,870 --> 00:34:25,469 S2: difficult times, helping us to cope with them, and also 595 00:34:25,550 --> 00:34:29,350 S2: to see how we can learn and grow through these things. 596 00:34:29,710 --> 00:34:32,550 S2: So it's a question, really, of just realizing God stays 597 00:34:32,550 --> 00:34:35,270 S2: with us and helps us to grow as we journey 598 00:34:35,310 --> 00:34:36,070 S2: through life. 599 00:34:36,310 --> 00:34:38,469 S1: That's one of the words that I wrote down as 600 00:34:38,469 --> 00:34:41,950 S1: I was going through. This is tension. There is tension 601 00:34:41,950 --> 00:34:45,030 S1: and tension in my life right now with some of the, 602 00:34:45,230 --> 00:34:46,830 S1: you know, the things that are going on and the 603 00:34:46,830 --> 00:34:49,910 S1: decisions I'm making and the life situation that I'm in. 604 00:34:49,950 --> 00:34:52,150 S1: There's just tension there. And God, I want you to 605 00:34:52,190 --> 00:34:55,110 S1: take this away because I want comfort, I want ease, 606 00:34:55,150 --> 00:34:58,190 S1: I want an easier life than I have right now 607 00:34:58,230 --> 00:35:00,550 S1: and aren't. Isn't he supposed to give that. You know, these. 608 00:35:00,910 --> 00:35:04,830 S1: The Psalm 23, the. The green pastures and the still 609 00:35:04,830 --> 00:35:07,510 S1: waters and all. Isn't that what I'm supposed to get? 610 00:35:07,510 --> 00:35:09,790 S1: And the longer I live and the more I look 611 00:35:09,790 --> 00:35:13,220 S1: back at the life of Jesus who. You talk about tension, 612 00:35:13,260 --> 00:35:17,580 S1: you know, fully God and fully man all here, you know, 613 00:35:17,620 --> 00:35:22,460 S1: in in his humanity, but also deity and coming up 614 00:35:22,460 --> 00:35:26,420 S1: against people who didn't believe him. His disciples didn't understand him. 615 00:35:26,460 --> 00:35:28,940 S1: You know, the tension that was in his life and 616 00:35:28,940 --> 00:35:33,060 S1: the tension makes us grow. I have never grown in 617 00:35:33,100 --> 00:35:36,220 S1: my life without, in a at a time of great 618 00:35:36,219 --> 00:35:40,340 S1: comfort when everything is going well, and it's the tension 619 00:35:40,340 --> 00:35:44,020 S1: that causes us to ask these harder questions, isn't it? 620 00:35:44,620 --> 00:35:46,980 S2: Well, I think you're right. I think very often something 621 00:35:46,980 --> 00:35:50,660 S2: happens to us that makes us rethink. And very often 622 00:35:50,660 --> 00:35:53,779 S2: a form of rethinking is saying, oh, I haven't appreciated 623 00:35:53,780 --> 00:35:56,259 S2: this properly. I haven't understood this properly. I can see 624 00:35:56,300 --> 00:35:59,620 S2: now this is helping me to understand this better. And 625 00:35:59,620 --> 00:36:02,300 S2: I think my advice to anybody who's going through this 626 00:36:02,300 --> 00:36:05,500 S2: kind of experience is to say, look, it's not fun, 627 00:36:05,660 --> 00:36:07,940 S2: but this is a this is how we grow as people. 628 00:36:07,940 --> 00:36:10,820 S2: It's how we begin to find out who we are, 629 00:36:10,860 --> 00:36:13,700 S2: what we're meant to be doing, and also a reminder 630 00:36:13,700 --> 00:36:16,500 S2: of what Christ went through. Think of all the pain, 631 00:36:16,540 --> 00:36:20,180 S2: the indignity, the suffering he went through and realized that 632 00:36:20,180 --> 00:36:23,060 S2: as Christians, very often we're called to follow that road 633 00:36:23,060 --> 00:36:25,780 S2: as well. But here's the point to make. We are 634 00:36:25,780 --> 00:36:29,940 S2: never on our own. We are always accompanied by a 635 00:36:29,980 --> 00:36:33,340 S2: God who, as our Shepherd, journeys with us through life 636 00:36:33,340 --> 00:36:36,299 S2: and upholds us as we go through these times of 637 00:36:36,300 --> 00:36:39,780 S2: trial and difficulty. We're not on our own. 638 00:36:40,180 --> 00:36:45,020 S1: Yes, I cannot recommend a book more highly, although Doctor 639 00:36:45,020 --> 00:36:49,299 S1: Swindell's book yesterday, his memoir, is kind of the same thing. 640 00:36:49,660 --> 00:36:54,020 S1: He has lived through his 92 years. Doctor Alister McGrath 641 00:36:54,020 --> 00:36:58,899 S1: has written Rethinking Christianity. It is a thoughtful guide to 642 00:36:58,940 --> 00:37:03,100 S1: a life changing faith. It will help you not only 643 00:37:03,100 --> 00:37:07,140 S1: get these ideas, but to live the ideas, but live 644 00:37:07,180 --> 00:37:11,060 S1: them out. Walk them out. Rethinking Christianity. Just go to 645 00:37:11,100 --> 00:37:16,460 S1: Chris Fabry live.org. Chris Fabry live dot ORG. More straight 646 00:37:16,460 --> 00:37:27,780 S1: ahead on Moody Radio. Here is your invitation to Rosie's 647 00:37:27,780 --> 00:37:33,420 S1: Book Club 2.0 tomorrow. Yeah, our October book club happens tomorrow. 648 00:37:33,460 --> 00:37:39,460 S1: We chose Rosie, chose C.S. Lewis's The Screwtape Letters, and 649 00:37:39,460 --> 00:37:41,980 S1: we're going to talk about it. Rosie's going to be here. 650 00:37:42,180 --> 00:37:44,899 S1: Eva Rudnick is going to join us as well. And 651 00:37:44,900 --> 00:37:48,140 S1: I'm going to ask doctor McGrath a question after the 652 00:37:48,140 --> 00:37:50,980 S1: program today that I may ask you tomorrow. So join 653 00:37:50,980 --> 00:37:54,180 S1: us for the book club tomorrow, The Screwtape Letters, if 654 00:37:54,180 --> 00:37:57,380 S1: you haven't read it in a number of years, join us. Anyway, 655 00:37:57,420 --> 00:37:59,859 S1: I think it's going to be really instructive. And go 656 00:37:59,860 --> 00:38:04,140 S1: to the website today, chris.org, because we have that book 657 00:38:04,140 --> 00:38:08,569 S1: by doctor McGrath Rethinking Christianity A Thoughtful guide to a 658 00:38:08,570 --> 00:38:12,730 S1: life changing faith. And here's something that is is really 659 00:38:12,770 --> 00:38:15,890 S1: shoe leather, as we're talking about just walking it out 660 00:38:15,890 --> 00:38:18,330 S1: because you get so many of these younger people sitting 661 00:38:18,330 --> 00:38:21,410 S1: down in your office asking you, you know, what, what 662 00:38:21,410 --> 00:38:25,010 S1: about Christianity? And also, what do I do with my life? 663 00:38:25,010 --> 00:38:27,890 S1: How do I discover if I really believe God is 664 00:38:27,890 --> 00:38:30,290 S1: there and he has a purpose for me? How do 665 00:38:30,290 --> 00:38:34,370 S1: I discover how to find that and live that out? 666 00:38:36,130 --> 00:38:38,650 S2: Well, I think that's a great question and one obviously 667 00:38:38,650 --> 00:38:40,370 S2: I've thought about a lot. I think one of the 668 00:38:40,410 --> 00:38:44,290 S2: first starting points is this maybe each of us has 669 00:38:44,290 --> 00:38:47,649 S2: some gifts that we have and maybe others don't. And 670 00:38:47,650 --> 00:38:51,170 S2: maybe the gifts that God has given us are clues 671 00:38:51,170 --> 00:38:54,130 S2: to what we're meant to be doing to serve him. Now, 672 00:38:54,210 --> 00:38:56,690 S2: in my own case, I'm an atheist who became a 673 00:38:56,690 --> 00:38:59,890 S2: Christian and and knew why I was an atheist and 674 00:38:59,890 --> 00:39:02,770 S2: then why I became a Christian. And so the thought 675 00:39:02,770 --> 00:39:06,290 S2: went through my mind. Maybe I could help other atheists 676 00:39:06,489 --> 00:39:10,930 S2: who were thinking about things reconsider their attitudes to Christianity. 677 00:39:10,930 --> 00:39:14,770 S2: I could walk them through what I went through as 678 00:39:14,770 --> 00:39:17,850 S2: I moved from atheism to Christianity. So that's helped me 679 00:39:17,850 --> 00:39:20,650 S2: discover what I think I'm meant to be doing for 680 00:39:20,650 --> 00:39:22,690 S2: God in the world. But you know, each of us 681 00:39:22,690 --> 00:39:25,690 S2: has our own history, our own gifts. And what you 682 00:39:25,690 --> 00:39:29,210 S2: may find is that God's preparing you for something through 683 00:39:29,210 --> 00:39:32,730 S2: the gifts is given you, or through the life you've 684 00:39:32,730 --> 00:39:35,410 S2: lived thus far in which you've picked up some ideas, 685 00:39:35,410 --> 00:39:38,129 S2: you've picked up some experience, and you realize, hey, I 686 00:39:38,130 --> 00:39:41,450 S2: could use that. I could repurpose that in some way 687 00:39:41,489 --> 00:39:44,810 S2: serving God. So think about your own history. Think about 688 00:39:44,810 --> 00:39:47,890 S2: your own gifts. Maybe that will help you work out 689 00:39:47,890 --> 00:39:50,050 S2: what God is wanting you to do with your life. 690 00:39:50,450 --> 00:39:55,250 S1: Do you also see that many times it is the 691 00:39:55,250 --> 00:39:58,689 S1: wound in a person's life that becomes a place of 692 00:39:58,690 --> 00:40:02,730 S1: healing for that person, and then a place of healing 693 00:40:02,730 --> 00:40:04,770 S1: for those around him or her. 694 00:40:06,050 --> 00:40:08,530 S2: Well, I think that's a very good point because many 695 00:40:08,530 --> 00:40:14,130 S2: people have a bad experience or some difficulty and managed 696 00:40:14,130 --> 00:40:18,290 S2: to overcome it and then realize, actually, I'm very well 697 00:40:18,330 --> 00:40:22,009 S2: placed now to help others who are still experiencing this 698 00:40:22,010 --> 00:40:25,969 S2: wound cope with it and maybe move beyond it. So again, 699 00:40:26,010 --> 00:40:28,009 S2: what you might do is just think about this. Have 700 00:40:28,010 --> 00:40:32,290 S2: I been through something very, very difficult? But I'm now 701 00:40:32,330 --> 00:40:35,010 S2: on the far side of it. Maybe what I went 702 00:40:35,010 --> 00:40:37,610 S2: through and how I coped with it might help others 703 00:40:37,610 --> 00:40:40,169 S2: to do the same. Now you're not being arrogant here. 704 00:40:40,170 --> 00:40:44,210 S2: You're simply saying, has my life history in some way 705 00:40:44,210 --> 00:40:47,810 S2: prepared me for some kind of ministry that might be 706 00:40:47,810 --> 00:40:51,049 S2: helpful to others? So just think about these things and 707 00:40:51,050 --> 00:40:54,170 S2: see if that points you in any particular directions. 708 00:40:54,450 --> 00:40:58,290 S1: What's the biggest misconception that you see of Christianity that 709 00:40:58,290 --> 00:41:01,370 S1: you would like everybody to see? That's not true. 710 00:41:02,930 --> 00:41:05,960 S2: I very often have friends who say to me, Alastair, 711 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:09,120 S2: Christianity is just a Western religion. And I have to 712 00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:12,239 S2: say to them, look, it's true. Christianity has found its 713 00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:14,840 S2: home in the West. But actually it began in. It 714 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,720 S2: began in Israel. It began in the ancient Near East. 715 00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,640 S2: You know, let's realize this. Actually, what we have here 716 00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,880 S2: is not something shaped by Western culture, but something that 717 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:28,040 S2: came out of, you know, the the Middle East and 718 00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:31,520 S2: has in effect found its home in so many places. 719 00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:34,799 S2: And very often people say Christianity is Western. They mean, hey, 720 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,920 S2: it's just this sort of typical individualist things that Westerners 721 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,080 S2: think of. But no, it's a faith that had its 722 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:45,040 S2: origins in the Middle East, and which has found its 723 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,919 S2: home in the West and changed the West for the better, 724 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,399 S2: if I may say so. So it's not Western, but 725 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:53,480 S2: it has settled down very well in the West, but 726 00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:55,880 S2: it can take its home in other parts of the 727 00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:58,080 S2: world as well. Very important point. 728 00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:03,239 S1: Um, who is who's your primary reader? Who were you 729 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:06,720 S1: writing to as you were writing this book? 730 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:09,840 S2: I like that question. I have two groups of readers 731 00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:13,000 S2: I hope to speak to. Number one, Christians who feel 732 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,480 S2: they'd like a bit of encouragement, a bit of advice, 733 00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,279 S2: a bit of wisdom that might help them grow in 734 00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:21,799 S2: their faith and rethink their faith. So it's able to 735 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:26,719 S2: engage people and these deep questions. And then secondly, there 736 00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:30,000 S2: are a lot of people out there, particularly in recent years, 737 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:34,040 S2: who are, in effect, thinking maybe Christianity is something I 738 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,959 S2: need to come back to. Maybe I haven't properly understood it. 739 00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,600 S2: I want to revisit it and see what I can 740 00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:43,239 S2: think of. I'm hoping this book will speak to them 741 00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:46,239 S2: and help them to go through this process of rethinking 742 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,040 S2: and see if that, in effect, gives them something that 743 00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:52,160 S2: will help them reconnect with the faith they may have 744 00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,839 S2: left behind or they may never have discovered. So two audiences, 745 00:42:55,840 --> 00:43:01,109 S2: Christians needing encouragement and interested outsiders wanting guidance about what 746 00:43:01,110 --> 00:43:03,910 S2: this is all about and the difference it could make 747 00:43:03,910 --> 00:43:04,750 S2: to their lives. 748 00:43:04,989 --> 00:43:07,989 S1: For the person who has been wounded by the church, 749 00:43:08,030 --> 00:43:11,150 S1: wounded by religion in some way, who has walked away 750 00:43:11,150 --> 00:43:15,870 S1: and is hearing your voice. What's what's the first step 751 00:43:15,870 --> 00:43:17,070 S1: in rethinking? 752 00:43:18,590 --> 00:43:21,750 S2: The first step in rethinking is realizing you're not on 753 00:43:21,750 --> 00:43:24,790 S2: your own here. There are others who've been through this 754 00:43:24,950 --> 00:43:27,950 S2: and have kind way reconnected and grown through it. And 755 00:43:27,950 --> 00:43:31,830 S2: here's what I want to say very often. Um, anything 756 00:43:31,830 --> 00:43:36,350 S2: that human beings do can damage people. Not necessarily deliberately, 757 00:43:36,390 --> 00:43:39,910 S2: sometimes accidentally, but sometimes we have to say, look, maybe 758 00:43:39,910 --> 00:43:44,950 S2: the fallible human agents of a worldview don't do justice 759 00:43:44,989 --> 00:43:47,630 S2: to it. Maybe we need to, in effect, see past 760 00:43:47,630 --> 00:43:51,030 S2: the people who've damaged us and hurt us to the 761 00:43:51,030 --> 00:43:54,390 S2: the treasure chest that lies beyond them, which they have 762 00:43:54,390 --> 00:43:57,790 S2: represented rather inadequately. Maybe I need to look at the 763 00:43:57,790 --> 00:44:01,870 S2: treasure chest, not at the inadequate people who've been trying 764 00:44:01,870 --> 00:44:03,910 S2: to explain it. So I think it's one of these 765 00:44:03,910 --> 00:44:07,230 S2: things of trying to discover what lies behind these things, 766 00:44:07,230 --> 00:44:10,390 S2: and asking whether we can start all over again and 767 00:44:10,390 --> 00:44:11,630 S2: rediscover this. 768 00:44:11,670 --> 00:44:14,950 S1: Yeah. And that's hard, you know, peeling back the layers, 769 00:44:14,989 --> 00:44:17,790 S1: you know, of hurt and pain and struggle and all 770 00:44:17,790 --> 00:44:21,030 S1: that to see what's really there. One more quote before 771 00:44:21,030 --> 00:44:23,910 S1: we end. You write many now feel a deep sense 772 00:44:23,910 --> 00:44:28,630 S1: of unease about the rapid rate of unpredictable cultural change 773 00:44:28,630 --> 00:44:32,910 S1: and upheaval in the West and beyond. We see it everywhere. 774 00:44:33,350 --> 00:44:36,830 S1: What do you say to the person who is thinking 775 00:44:36,830 --> 00:44:40,790 S1: about rethinking Christianity with all of the change that we 776 00:44:40,790 --> 00:44:41,750 S1: see around us? 777 00:44:42,469 --> 00:44:45,069 S2: Well, this is a big issue in these conversations I 778 00:44:45,070 --> 00:44:48,190 S2: had with students at Oxford. They were saying, look, change 779 00:44:48,230 --> 00:44:52,230 S2: changes are so quick these days that a worldview that 780 00:44:52,230 --> 00:44:55,710 S2: seems to be absolutely secure on day one, you know, 781 00:44:55,750 --> 00:44:58,629 S2: two years, two years later, it's just what we thought. 782 00:44:58,670 --> 00:45:01,390 S2: Two years ago. In other words, what is there that 783 00:45:01,390 --> 00:45:03,390 S2: is secure? What can we trust? People used to think 784 00:45:03,390 --> 00:45:06,310 S2: the new atheism was the future. Well, no, it's just 785 00:45:06,310 --> 00:45:08,910 S2: the past now. So what I'm saying is, one of 786 00:45:08,910 --> 00:45:12,069 S2: the reasons that Christianity speaks so powerfully to people is 787 00:45:12,070 --> 00:45:15,830 S2: that it's been here for 2000 years. It's been tried 788 00:45:15,830 --> 00:45:19,230 S2: and tested. It's able to adapt to new situations, to 789 00:45:19,270 --> 00:45:21,670 S2: new people. And so the key point I'm trying to 790 00:45:21,710 --> 00:45:25,509 S2: make is this in an age of rapid social, cultural change, 791 00:45:25,670 --> 00:45:29,109 S2: Christianity is a rock on which we can build our 792 00:45:29,110 --> 00:45:32,630 S2: house of faith. It's secure against the storms and the 793 00:45:32,630 --> 00:45:35,030 S2: winds that life sets against us. 794 00:45:35,790 --> 00:45:38,830 S1: So well, said doctor McGrath. It's a great pleasure to 795 00:45:38,870 --> 00:45:41,190 S1: meet you. Thank you for your work through the years, 796 00:45:41,190 --> 00:45:46,629 S1: for your faithfulness to to communicate the truth on an 797 00:45:46,630 --> 00:45:50,310 S1: academic setting, in an academic setting, you know, with the students, 798 00:45:50,310 --> 00:45:53,310 S1: but also to those of us who are are walking 799 00:45:53,310 --> 00:45:58,140 S1: around today trying to figure out, okay, what is really Christianity. 800 00:45:58,180 --> 00:46:01,260 S1: What is that really? And how do I live it out? 801 00:46:01,300 --> 00:46:04,660 S1: How do I allow God to live it out in me, 802 00:46:04,700 --> 00:46:07,500 S1: through me? This is a great book. Thank you for 803 00:46:07,500 --> 00:46:10,140 S1: joining us here on the on the book release day. 804 00:46:11,020 --> 00:46:12,900 S2: It's been a pleasure being with you. Thank you. 805 00:46:13,460 --> 00:46:18,620 S1: Doctor. Alister McGrath MCGRATH is how you spell his last name. 806 00:46:18,620 --> 00:46:22,899 S1: Rethinking Christianity. It is a thoughtful guide to a life 807 00:46:22,940 --> 00:46:25,580 S1: changing faith, and it's our featured resource. If you go 808 00:46:25,580 --> 00:46:28,180 S1: to Chris Fabry live.org. We've got a link right there 809 00:46:28,180 --> 00:46:31,259 S1: at the home page, as well as clicking through. You'll 810 00:46:31,260 --> 00:46:33,819 S1: find out how many. If this is the first time 811 00:46:33,820 --> 00:46:36,580 S1: you've ever heard him, you've got to look at what 812 00:46:36,580 --> 00:46:39,940 S1: he has written in the past and probably will in 813 00:46:39,940 --> 00:46:43,100 S1: the future. We'll have him back on again. The Screwtape 814 00:46:43,100 --> 00:46:45,739 S1: Letters tomorrow at the Book Club. Hope you'll join us 815 00:46:45,739 --> 00:46:49,100 S1: for Chris Fabry live production of Moody Radio, a Ministry 816 00:46:49,100 --> 00:46:50,980 S1: of Moody Bible Institute.