1 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:09,119 S1: I cannot wait to dig into some stories today because 2 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:12,920 S1: stories are powerful. Stories make us come alive. Stories can 3 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:15,920 S1: change us. Ask David when the prophet came and told 4 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:19,760 S1: him a story, that story helped David see himself. I 5 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:22,680 S1: think the same thing can happen today with stories. And 6 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:25,759 S1: as we celebrate Black History Month, I've had a desire 7 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:29,560 S1: to discover what stories told by African American authors have 8 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:33,560 S1: done through the years and lives and hearts. We talked 9 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:37,240 S1: last week about the rich history of the black musical tradition. Today, 10 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:39,720 S1: we're going to dig into the power of African American 11 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:43,120 S1: literature with a pastor and author who grew up with 12 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:45,760 S1: a picture of a blue eyed, white skinned Jesus on 13 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,560 S1: the wall of his home. Don't miss the conversation today 14 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:53,400 S1: about reading black books. This came out almost four years ago, 15 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:55,840 S1: so I am late to the party, but I think 16 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:57,920 S1: it's going to be good. We start with a thank you. 17 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:00,460 S1: Ryan's not feeling well today. Look who's in the chair. 18 00:01:00,460 --> 00:01:03,420 S1: Stephen Taber from in the market with Janet Parshall. Thank 19 00:01:03,460 --> 00:01:06,740 S1: you Stephen. Trish is our producer. Lisa is here. Josh 20 00:01:06,740 --> 00:01:09,540 S1: will be answering your calls today. I got an email 21 00:01:09,540 --> 00:01:12,580 S1: from Patricia who said, hey, I'm a back fence partner. Patricia, 22 00:01:12,580 --> 00:01:16,020 S1: thank you for your support. And, uh, open that video 23 00:01:16,020 --> 00:01:18,540 S1: that we're sending out this afternoon. If you're a partner, 24 00:01:18,540 --> 00:01:20,260 S1: you give a gift each month. You get what I 25 00:01:20,260 --> 00:01:23,660 S1: call my back fence post. And today I ask and 26 00:01:23,660 --> 00:01:26,179 S1: answer a question, how do you become who you were 27 00:01:26,180 --> 00:01:29,380 S1: meant to be? And I share an idea that has 28 00:01:29,380 --> 00:01:32,020 S1: helped me in decision making, and life in general is 29 00:01:32,020 --> 00:01:34,899 S1: about the parades all around us. Some are good, some 30 00:01:34,900 --> 00:01:38,980 S1: are not so good. And realizing your parade, figuring out 31 00:01:38,980 --> 00:01:42,220 S1: where God wants you will help you say no to 32 00:01:42,260 --> 00:01:45,380 S1: other parades. Again, good parades. There's a lot of good 33 00:01:45,380 --> 00:01:47,779 S1: parades out there, but you can't be in all of them. 34 00:01:48,020 --> 00:01:50,340 S1: Click that if you are a partner with us and 35 00:01:50,340 --> 00:01:53,220 S1: see if you agree what has helped me. See if 36 00:01:53,220 --> 00:01:55,740 S1: it helps and if you are not a partner. We 37 00:01:55,780 --> 00:01:58,880 S1: are looking for four more in February and at the 38 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:02,680 S1: risk of contradicting myself, get in the parade. This program 39 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:05,840 S1: exists because people like you support us with a one 40 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:08,760 S1: time gift or a monthly gift. So here's how to 41 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:16,720 S1: do that. Go to Chris Fabry. Chris. Chris. Or you 42 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:21,760 S1: can call 86695 Fabry and become a partner or friend 43 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:24,120 S1: with us today. And thank you to those. If you 44 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:27,839 S1: enjoy today's program, thank those who contributed. So I will 45 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:31,560 S1: get to talk to our guest today. Who is Claude H0? 46 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:37,440 S1: H0 he's pastor of church of the Resurrection in Charlottesville, Virginia. 47 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:41,240 S1: He's taught African American literature at the collegiate level. He's 48 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,760 S1: a regular writer and podcast contributor for Think Christian. He's 49 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:48,240 S1: written for Christ and Pop Culture, The Gospel Coalition and 50 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:52,239 S1: The Witness, a black Christian collective. Claude is married to Kelsey. 51 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,359 S1: He's been there. They've been married for 16 years. They 52 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:59,660 S1: have three children and her featured resource is his book 53 00:03:00,060 --> 00:03:03,980 S1: Reading Black Books How African American Literature Can Make Our 54 00:03:03,980 --> 00:03:07,739 S1: Faith More Whole and Just. It was a Christianity Today 55 00:03:07,780 --> 00:03:12,020 S1: 2023 Book Award finalist in the Culture and Arts category, 56 00:03:12,020 --> 00:03:17,859 S1: and Midwest Book Review 2023 Gold Book Award winner. So 57 00:03:17,860 --> 00:03:20,299 S1: it's a really good one. I've been going through it 58 00:03:20,300 --> 00:03:23,300 S1: the last few days. Claude, welcome to the program. Sorry 59 00:03:23,300 --> 00:03:24,420 S1: I'm late to the party. 60 00:03:25,139 --> 00:03:28,820 S2: Chris. It's a total pleasure and welcome to the party. 61 00:03:28,860 --> 00:03:30,060 S2: We're glad to have you. 62 00:03:30,300 --> 00:03:32,740 S1: Or the parade, as it were. Okay, this feels like 63 00:03:32,740 --> 00:03:35,380 S1: a labor of love to me. That what you've written 64 00:03:35,380 --> 00:03:39,100 S1: is an homage to some voices that have spoken deeply 65 00:03:39,100 --> 00:03:42,180 S1: into your life that you would like others to enjoy. 66 00:03:42,220 --> 00:03:44,300 S1: Am I close to what you want to do here? 67 00:03:45,220 --> 00:03:50,260 S2: Really close. Yeah. Um. I had studied literature in undergrad 68 00:03:50,260 --> 00:03:53,620 S2: and in grad school, you know, before moving into pastoral ministry. 69 00:03:53,620 --> 00:03:58,040 S2: And so I sort of wrestled with these stories, wondering, uh, 70 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:01,520 S2: about what they. Not just what they were saying as stories, 71 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:04,600 S2: but how they were, I think. Um, meant to form 72 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:06,960 S2: me also as a disciple. If everything is under the 73 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:10,760 S2: lordship of Jesus, then. Stories are formative, too, if they're 74 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:13,320 S2: good stories. And so I tried to wrestle with that 75 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:15,120 S2: in this book in a lot of ways. Is the 76 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:17,960 S2: fruit of that wrestling. So many years later, after some 77 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:20,240 S2: of those early, uh, undergrad courses. 78 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:24,320 S1: You dedicate this to your mom quote for always praying 79 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:27,440 S1: for you. It sounds like there's another story behind that 80 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:29,800 S1: or a further story. Is that true? 81 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,200 S2: You know, I just think of how formative the prayers 82 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:37,080 S2: of a mother really are. I think about Augustine's mother, Monica, 83 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,840 S2: who prayed, uh, deeply for him. And I have a 84 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:43,680 S2: lot of memories of just, uh, coming out of my 85 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,680 S2: room as a kid and overhearing my mom talking and 86 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,520 S2: wondering who's in the house and then finding out, no, 87 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:52,760 S2: that's my mom praying for me. And so that has 88 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:57,140 S2: been a deep formative. Um, yeah. Memory in my life. 89 00:04:57,140 --> 00:04:58,859 S2: And I know that God is faithful to hear the 90 00:04:58,860 --> 00:05:01,460 S2: prayers of his people. So, you know, I'm not, uh, 91 00:05:01,460 --> 00:05:03,620 S2: not where I am or who I am without God's 92 00:05:03,620 --> 00:05:04,739 S2: grace through my mom. 93 00:05:05,300 --> 00:05:07,739 S1: Tell me about white Jesus on the wall. 94 00:05:08,700 --> 00:05:11,700 S2: Yes. So in our house, we had, uh, a lot 95 00:05:11,700 --> 00:05:16,060 S2: of different artwork. Um, we've had some different, um, pieces 96 00:05:16,060 --> 00:05:18,820 S2: that I have maybe broken as a child by, you know, 97 00:05:18,860 --> 00:05:21,900 S2: jumping and imitating basketball moves in the house. I don't 98 00:05:21,900 --> 00:05:23,460 S2: need to tell those stories. But we also had a 99 00:05:23,460 --> 00:05:26,060 S2: white Jesus on the wall of our house as well. 100 00:05:26,100 --> 00:05:30,060 S2: Kind of the stereotypical, uh, blonde hair, blue eyes, um, 101 00:05:30,180 --> 00:05:32,940 S2: kind of has a long legacy in history, particularly in 102 00:05:32,980 --> 00:05:35,580 S2: the American context. So, uh, that was on the wall 103 00:05:35,580 --> 00:05:39,260 S2: in our house. And, you know, it never really stood 104 00:05:39,260 --> 00:05:41,780 S2: out to me all that much until I reflected on 105 00:05:41,779 --> 00:05:44,900 S2: it much later, uh, as I was an adult and 106 00:05:44,900 --> 00:05:48,540 S2: thinking through discipleship to Jesus and sort of wondering, you know, 107 00:05:48,620 --> 00:05:52,140 S2: is that really historically accurate? And maybe more than that, 108 00:05:52,140 --> 00:05:54,960 S2: what does that mean for me as an African American, 109 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:57,000 S2: as I think about a lot of the voices that 110 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,080 S2: I heard in the world, and you still hear today 111 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:02,680 S2: that Christianity is the so-called white man's religion. And so 112 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,480 S2: that was sort of a pebble in my shoe that 113 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:07,760 S2: I had to wrestle with. And I think part of 114 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:10,360 S2: that wrestling is my engagement with these novels. 115 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:13,680 S1: Hmm. Was that Solomon's head of Christ? 116 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:15,120 S2: Yes. 117 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:19,960 S1: Okay. Yeah. And I've seen that. And and it's a 118 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:25,000 S1: beautiful painting. And Warner Solomon, uh, you know, had every, 119 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:28,840 S1: every good, uh, thought and meaning behind that. But as 120 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:31,600 S1: a young African American kid growing up, look at and 121 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:33,599 S1: say he doesn't look like me, you know. 122 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,000 S2: Right. Which I think, you know, then begins to raise 123 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:41,800 S2: the question with different experiences, um, different ways of feeling, uh, 124 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:45,400 S2: as an outsider or different forms of prejudice or racism. Uh, 125 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:49,960 S2: it then begins to raise the question, Does God understand 126 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:53,419 S2: my experience? Does God understand me? Which, you know, as 127 00:06:53,460 --> 00:06:58,940 S2: a the scriptures testify. Yes. But that experiential dissonance can 128 00:06:58,940 --> 00:07:02,740 S2: be really jarring. And so these stories, I think, read 129 00:07:02,740 --> 00:07:05,900 S2: in a literary lens, but also read in a Christian lens, 130 00:07:06,339 --> 00:07:09,219 S2: I think can really help, help us see that, that 131 00:07:09,220 --> 00:07:13,460 S2: God really knows the particulars of our story. Um, and 132 00:07:13,460 --> 00:07:17,500 S2: our cultures, um, and that helps us, uh, move toward 133 00:07:17,500 --> 00:07:18,660 S2: the truth of the gospel. 134 00:07:19,100 --> 00:07:21,740 S1: I mentioned Nathan's story to David, you know, when he 135 00:07:21,740 --> 00:07:24,540 S1: told that. And David was incensed. And Nathan says, you're 136 00:07:24,580 --> 00:07:28,620 S1: the man. That's what you say these stories can do 137 00:07:28,620 --> 00:07:32,020 S1: to us in different ways. I'd never seen the quote 138 00:07:32,020 --> 00:07:36,380 S1: from Roger Ebert, the movie critic, that he said that 139 00:07:36,380 --> 00:07:42,420 S1: movies were empathy machines. And I thought, yeah, that that's it. 140 00:07:42,460 --> 00:07:45,340 S1: It puts us in the in the place of some 141 00:07:45,340 --> 00:07:50,020 S1: other character or characters and makes us walk through them. 142 00:07:50,410 --> 00:07:53,290 S1: You believe that's the same for literature, right? 143 00:07:54,290 --> 00:07:57,490 S2: Yeah, absolutely. And I even think to a degree, literature 144 00:07:57,490 --> 00:08:00,610 S2: can do that in a way that's maybe more potent 145 00:08:00,610 --> 00:08:04,010 S2: than film. Because in the reading of literature, we're we're 146 00:08:04,050 --> 00:08:08,050 S2: really engaging in a work of attention. You know, we're 147 00:08:08,050 --> 00:08:12,290 S2: sitting hopefully somewhat uninterrupted, and we're letting the words that 148 00:08:12,290 --> 00:08:15,890 S2: another person has crafted quite carefully sort of enter into 149 00:08:15,890 --> 00:08:19,570 S2: our minds, and it becomes an inhabiting of a story. 150 00:08:19,930 --> 00:08:22,730 S2: And so in literature, we're not just being told sort 151 00:08:22,730 --> 00:08:24,930 S2: of the movements of a plot. You know, this happened, 152 00:08:24,930 --> 00:08:26,890 S2: and after that, then this, and then, you know, happy 153 00:08:26,890 --> 00:08:30,530 S2: ending or tragic ending. We're also being drawn into the 154 00:08:30,570 --> 00:08:33,930 S2: sort of inner psychology of characters. We get it. We 155 00:08:33,929 --> 00:08:38,250 S2: get an insight into their motivations, their fears, their hopes, 156 00:08:38,250 --> 00:08:41,410 S2: their dreams, their concerns, all these sort of things that 157 00:08:41,650 --> 00:08:45,089 S2: we don't get that sort of interiority kind of anywhere 158 00:08:45,090 --> 00:08:47,730 S2: else unless someone really opens up to us deeply. So 159 00:08:47,770 --> 00:08:50,989 S2: I think where film, uh, you know, puts us into 160 00:08:51,190 --> 00:08:54,150 S2: movement of empathy through kind of angles of the camera. Um, 161 00:08:54,150 --> 00:08:58,110 S2: literature and good stories do this through through word, through imagination, 162 00:08:58,110 --> 00:09:00,990 S2: through attention, which I think can be deeply formative. 163 00:09:01,870 --> 00:09:05,310 S1: Because the film is more of a passive medium, and 164 00:09:05,309 --> 00:09:08,110 S1: I'm not criticizing it, but it's all the work is 165 00:09:08,110 --> 00:09:11,750 S1: done for you. You simply respond to it. Reading a 166 00:09:11,750 --> 00:09:14,550 S1: book or even I listen to a lot of audio books. 167 00:09:14,710 --> 00:09:18,429 S1: You have to pay attention to what's going on, and 168 00:09:18,429 --> 00:09:23,270 S1: it is as if you are right there with bigger 169 00:09:23,510 --> 00:09:26,469 S1: as he's going through in Native Son. And we're going 170 00:09:26,470 --> 00:09:28,990 S1: to talk about that. And that's a really, really hard book. 171 00:09:29,030 --> 00:09:31,350 S1: We're in for some tough sledding in a lot of 172 00:09:31,350 --> 00:09:34,150 S1: ways today, but we've got a great guide. His name 173 00:09:34,150 --> 00:09:39,550 S1: is Claude Acho. Acho, our featured resource is Reading Black 174 00:09:39,550 --> 00:09:43,150 S1: Books How African American Literature Can Make our Faith more 175 00:09:43,150 --> 00:09:47,890 S1: whole and just. We'll find out how straight ahead This 176 00:09:47,890 --> 00:09:51,050 S1: is Chris Fabry live on Moody Radio online. Chris favorite 177 00:09:52,490 --> 00:10:10,530 S1: and our number is (877) 548-3675. We're talking with Claude Acho, 178 00:10:10,530 --> 00:10:14,530 S1: pastor and author of Reading Black Books How African American 179 00:10:14,530 --> 00:10:19,050 S1: Literature Can Make Our Faith More Whole and Just. It's 180 00:10:19,050 --> 00:10:26,170 S1: our featured resource at. Chris. Org. Chris. Okay. Real quickly, Claude, 181 00:10:26,170 --> 00:10:28,490 S1: I want you to respond to something I hear a lot, 182 00:10:28,770 --> 00:10:31,569 S1: and that is I don't read fiction. I read nonfiction 183 00:10:31,570 --> 00:10:35,290 S1: because fiction is not true and nonfiction is is true, 184 00:10:35,330 --> 00:10:37,810 S1: or most of the time it is. And I think 185 00:10:37,809 --> 00:10:40,809 S1: part of the problem we have been conditioned in our, 186 00:10:41,090 --> 00:10:44,410 S1: maybe even in the church to believe that stories, novels, 187 00:10:44,650 --> 00:10:48,870 S1: movies are an escape. There's something that you do to 188 00:10:48,910 --> 00:10:53,070 S1: take your mind off of life. Rather than being instructive. 189 00:10:53,230 --> 00:10:55,030 S1: Give me 30s on that. 190 00:10:56,030 --> 00:10:59,670 S2: Yeah. So I would say story is the. And novels 191 00:10:59,670 --> 00:11:07,790 S2: are the example of attention and analyzing and, um, sort 192 00:11:07,790 --> 00:11:10,990 S2: of discerning the movements in a human story. So it's 193 00:11:10,990 --> 00:11:13,910 S2: learning from another person's life. Uh, and so it can 194 00:11:13,910 --> 00:11:17,630 S2: be entertaining. Yes, but it's another way to inhabit the 195 00:11:17,630 --> 00:11:20,470 S2: experience of another and glean wisdom from it. 196 00:11:21,030 --> 00:11:24,950 S1: Again, the empathy quotient that you're talking there, uh, you 197 00:11:24,950 --> 00:11:28,350 S1: say I see three primary benefits of reading classic black 198 00:11:28,350 --> 00:11:34,670 S1: literature with a theological perspective. First, such a reading provides edification, 199 00:11:34,670 --> 00:11:38,910 S1: encouragement by demonstrating the coherence of Christianity and black experience 200 00:11:38,910 --> 00:11:40,949 S1: and concern. Tell me about that. 201 00:11:42,030 --> 00:11:43,990 S2: So as I mentioned, you know, looking at that picture 202 00:11:43,990 --> 00:11:47,530 S2: of white Jesus as a kid. In thinking about that retrospectively, 203 00:11:47,850 --> 00:11:51,410 S2: it raised questions. How does Jesus? Does Jesus really understand 204 00:11:51,410 --> 00:11:55,450 S2: my story? And so I think reading black literature through 205 00:11:55,450 --> 00:12:00,089 S2: a Christian or theological lens, that's asking the question, what 206 00:12:00,090 --> 00:12:03,250 S2: does the story of the kingdom of God, the story 207 00:12:03,250 --> 00:12:06,530 S2: of Scripture, what does it say to the story of 208 00:12:06,690 --> 00:12:09,290 S2: Bigger Thomas, a main character, a native son? What does 209 00:12:09,290 --> 00:12:13,170 S2: it say to this representation of African American experience? And 210 00:12:13,170 --> 00:12:16,650 S2: I actually have tremendous faith in the scriptures and in 211 00:12:16,650 --> 00:12:20,610 S2: the gospel that God has answers to our stories, to 212 00:12:20,650 --> 00:12:23,730 S2: our longings, and to our questions. And so at that intersection, 213 00:12:23,730 --> 00:12:27,970 S2: asking that question actually becomes a challenging project, but ultimately 214 00:12:27,970 --> 00:12:30,290 S2: an edifying one, because we find the hope and the 215 00:12:30,290 --> 00:12:33,490 S2: truth of the Kingdom speaks to our real lived experience. 216 00:12:33,850 --> 00:12:37,689 S1: Second point, then, is it illuminates our blind spots where 217 00:12:37,690 --> 00:12:42,089 S1: our faith and practice have not attended to the black experience. 218 00:12:42,090 --> 00:12:43,010 S1: Explain that. 219 00:12:43,830 --> 00:12:47,350 S2: So if we go to, you know, let's say the 220 00:12:47,350 --> 00:12:49,910 S2: story of Native Son, which I know we'll talk about 221 00:12:50,110 --> 00:12:54,390 S2: in a little bit. Um, there are certain themes that 222 00:12:54,390 --> 00:12:59,230 S2: that story raises that outside of that novel, depending on 223 00:12:59,230 --> 00:13:01,990 S2: my life experience, I might never think about. I might 224 00:13:01,990 --> 00:13:07,150 S2: not think about how do societal systems work to actually 225 00:13:07,190 --> 00:13:12,670 S2: draw people deeper into the sort of, uh, reckless, um, 226 00:13:12,950 --> 00:13:16,630 S2: violent and sort of hopeless choices that you hoped someone 227 00:13:16,630 --> 00:13:19,990 S2: would never make. I might not ask those questions unless 228 00:13:19,990 --> 00:13:22,230 S2: I go through that personally, but if I read that 229 00:13:22,230 --> 00:13:25,150 S2: novel now, I'm asking that question. And then if I 230 00:13:25,150 --> 00:13:28,390 S2: read the novel Christianly theologically, I'm going to ask that 231 00:13:28,390 --> 00:13:32,429 S2: question in conversation with the scriptures, in conversation with the gospel. 232 00:13:32,470 --> 00:13:35,390 S2: And in that way, a blind spot is exposed, but 233 00:13:35,390 --> 00:13:37,270 S2: then brought into the light of God's Word. 234 00:13:37,590 --> 00:13:44,050 S1: Hmm. You use the phrase malnourished Theological imagination in there. 235 00:13:44,090 --> 00:13:44,970 S1: That's pretty good. 236 00:13:45,530 --> 00:13:49,170 S2: Mhm. Yeah. And that's something of the same. It's sort 237 00:13:49,170 --> 00:13:52,890 S2: of um you know we need one another and so 238 00:13:52,890 --> 00:13:55,930 S2: we need one another's stories. And as we read those 239 00:13:55,929 --> 00:13:58,610 S2: sort of stories, it'll show us places where we haven't 240 00:13:58,610 --> 00:14:02,010 S2: maybe had the time or opportunity or reason to reflect 241 00:14:02,050 --> 00:14:05,650 S2: theologically about something biblically about something. And that's, I think, 242 00:14:05,650 --> 00:14:08,970 S2: one of the great benefits of reading literature, uh, on 243 00:14:08,970 --> 00:14:11,929 S2: its own terms as literature. But of course, as Christians, uh, 244 00:14:11,929 --> 00:14:13,730 S2: reading it as well, theologically. 245 00:14:14,210 --> 00:14:17,650 S1: What do you mean, in the subtitle, more whole and 246 00:14:17,650 --> 00:14:21,490 S1: just how African American literature can make our faith more whole. 247 00:14:21,490 --> 00:14:25,730 S2: And just so this is my little, uh, nod to 248 00:14:25,890 --> 00:14:31,650 S2: the words of Frederick Douglass, um, in, uh, his autobiography, um, 249 00:14:31,770 --> 00:14:34,090 S2: in the narrative of Frederick Douglass toward the end, he 250 00:14:34,090 --> 00:14:38,570 S2: has this, uh, really, uh, potent, powerful, tragic paragraph where 251 00:14:38,570 --> 00:14:43,030 S2: he makes a distinction between the slave holding religion um, 252 00:14:43,150 --> 00:14:47,390 S2: seen uh, in American history, uh, as up and against 253 00:14:47,430 --> 00:14:51,830 S2: what he calls, um, Christianity, proper Christianity of Christ. And 254 00:14:51,990 --> 00:14:54,310 S2: he says that there's a, there's a different there's a 255 00:14:54,350 --> 00:14:57,070 S2: world of difference. They're not even connected. He says the 256 00:14:57,070 --> 00:15:00,710 S2: widest possible difference, uh, he says, I love the pure, peaceable, 257 00:15:00,710 --> 00:15:05,070 S2: impartial Christianity of Christ. Therefore, I hate the corrupt, slave holding, 258 00:15:05,270 --> 00:15:11,030 S2: women whipping, cradle plundering, partial and hypocritical Christianity of this land. 259 00:15:11,230 --> 00:15:14,110 S2: So when I speak about African American literature can make 260 00:15:14,110 --> 00:15:16,830 S2: our faith more whole. And just it's sort of my 261 00:15:16,830 --> 00:15:20,590 S2: nod to, to Douglas, their whole meaning, the fullness of 262 00:15:20,630 --> 00:15:23,950 S2: God's truth. Um, not just sort of taking the parts 263 00:15:23,950 --> 00:15:26,870 S2: that are convenient, but really trying to submit to the 264 00:15:26,870 --> 00:15:32,030 S2: whole of scriptural revelation and in submitting to the whole, um, 265 00:15:32,070 --> 00:15:35,110 S2: by God's grace, we then begin to live justly, which 266 00:15:35,110 --> 00:15:39,230 S2: is righteously lives of holiness, where we love God, love 267 00:15:39,370 --> 00:15:43,210 S2: neighbor and walk humbly with him. As Micah six eight declares. 268 00:15:43,490 --> 00:15:49,490 S1: To me whole. There is a certain sense of life, abundance, 269 00:15:49,490 --> 00:15:53,370 S1: abundant life. You can't have abundant whole life if you 270 00:15:53,370 --> 00:15:56,210 S1: don't have a have abundant life. And there's only one 271 00:15:56,570 --> 00:15:59,970 S1: way to get that, and that is through the transformation 272 00:15:59,970 --> 00:16:03,250 S1: that God wants to make in our lives through Christ. 273 00:16:03,570 --> 00:16:06,410 S1: So I'm on I'm on the same track with you. 274 00:16:06,410 --> 00:16:09,930 S1: And then I told you this before the program, I was, uh, 275 00:16:09,930 --> 00:16:13,730 S1: I never read A Native Son by Richard Wright. I've 276 00:16:13,730 --> 00:16:16,050 S1: heard a lot about it. I heard from a really, 277 00:16:16,090 --> 00:16:18,530 S1: you know, great Christian leaders who have said, this is 278 00:16:18,530 --> 00:16:21,410 S1: one of the books of the 20th century you need 279 00:16:21,410 --> 00:16:24,970 S1: to read. And so I read it and I do 280 00:16:24,970 --> 00:16:28,610 S1: a lot of audiobook reading. And there are it's it's 281 00:16:28,650 --> 00:16:33,730 S1: a really stark, difficult story to get through, especially there's 282 00:16:33,730 --> 00:16:36,490 S1: one scene in there and I'm walking. I've stopped. It's 283 00:16:36,490 --> 00:16:41,510 S1: like bigger. Don't do that. Bigger. Um, so I got 284 00:16:41,510 --> 00:16:45,390 S1: another source than your book that kind of gave this synopsis, 285 00:16:45,390 --> 00:16:49,590 S1: and it says bigger. Thomas is unlike any protagonist ever 286 00:16:49,590 --> 00:16:53,350 S1: to have appeared in African American literature before. Bigger Thomas 287 00:16:53,550 --> 00:16:57,150 S1: and the book came out in, I think it was 1940. Right. 288 00:16:57,190 --> 00:16:58,870 S2: Um, that sounds about right. Yeah. 289 00:16:59,110 --> 00:17:05,910 S1: Before bigger Thomas, black heroes and heroines were generally virtuous, polite, upright, intelligent, 290 00:17:05,910 --> 00:17:13,229 S1: sensitive and knowledgeable. Bigger is crude, barely literate, unclean, untrustworthy, 291 00:17:13,510 --> 00:17:17,390 S1: and a murderer. His behavior seems driven by a fear 292 00:17:17,390 --> 00:17:20,990 S1: of whites. That was the legacy of slavery. Every act 293 00:17:21,030 --> 00:17:25,870 S1: he performs has its roots in dread. Do you agree 294 00:17:25,869 --> 00:17:26,429 S1: with that? 295 00:17:28,310 --> 00:17:31,150 S2: I do agree, and I think fear is a driving 296 00:17:31,150 --> 00:17:35,070 S2: cause of, um, tragedy, the violence and the sin that 297 00:17:35,070 --> 00:17:37,530 S2: bigger commits throughout the novel and part of what the 298 00:17:37,570 --> 00:17:40,690 S2: novel is interested in doing. Richard Wright, the author. He's 299 00:17:40,690 --> 00:17:46,850 S2: interested in showing the conditions in which bigger lives and acts, 300 00:17:47,290 --> 00:17:49,490 S2: but also sort of the conditions in which someone like 301 00:17:49,490 --> 00:17:54,929 S2: bigger is created, almost. He wants to show this as 302 00:17:54,970 --> 00:18:01,010 S2: the reality that is emerging from the sort of systemic, um, uh, 303 00:18:01,010 --> 00:18:06,850 S2: manifestation of sin, racism and oppression that's happening in the 304 00:18:06,850 --> 00:18:10,290 S2: 1930s in our country. So he's at great pains to 305 00:18:10,330 --> 00:18:13,530 S2: really illustrate that through his story. And I think he's 306 00:18:13,530 --> 00:18:17,730 S2: he's really trying to highlight in bigger here is sort 307 00:18:17,730 --> 00:18:21,050 S2: of what we have created, um, in our country. 308 00:18:21,810 --> 00:18:26,690 S1: There's a feeling of hopelessness that you get coming from bigger, 309 00:18:26,730 --> 00:18:29,770 S1: no matter who comes alongside him, and tries to point 310 00:18:29,770 --> 00:18:32,889 S1: him in a good direction or not. There's this sense 311 00:18:32,890 --> 00:18:35,250 S1: of of hopelessness, don't you think? 312 00:18:36,270 --> 00:18:39,710 S2: Absolutely. So. There are bigger encounters, a number of characters who, 313 00:18:39,750 --> 00:18:43,870 S2: interestingly enough, are exceptionally well meaning. They try to get 314 00:18:43,869 --> 00:18:46,790 S2: him a job. They want to help him. They're sort of, 315 00:18:46,830 --> 00:18:50,590 S2: you know, at this time, you know, they're breaking really 316 00:18:50,590 --> 00:18:55,790 S2: strong societal norms. They're transgressing them. Um, you know, they're 317 00:18:55,990 --> 00:18:59,350 S2: talking to bigger as an actual human being, even though 318 00:18:59,350 --> 00:19:01,590 S2: he's a black person and the person speaking to him 319 00:19:01,590 --> 00:19:04,910 S2: is white. And so there's many well-meaning characters who are 320 00:19:04,910 --> 00:19:09,470 S2: doing what seem to be, um, virtuous things. But every 321 00:19:09,510 --> 00:19:13,270 S2: act of virtue that is done towards bigger ends up 322 00:19:13,270 --> 00:19:17,790 S2: making everything worse and right is at pains to illustrate this, 323 00:19:17,790 --> 00:19:22,270 S2: because he's sort of declaring the message that unless this 324 00:19:22,270 --> 00:19:26,910 S2: deep structure of the city of Chicago in this case, um, 325 00:19:27,150 --> 00:19:29,550 S2: but our country and racism and these sort of things, 326 00:19:29,550 --> 00:19:32,910 S2: unless they're addressed at this deep, structural sort of level, 327 00:19:33,190 --> 00:19:37,570 S2: the best of intentions will actually not yield the fruit 328 00:19:37,570 --> 00:19:41,050 S2: and change that we desire. And I think this is 329 00:19:41,050 --> 00:19:45,570 S2: an important note for us to hear as Christians, because 330 00:19:45,570 --> 00:19:48,250 S2: it does help us to realize that sin is not 331 00:19:48,250 --> 00:19:51,370 S2: just something that we do as individuals, but that as 332 00:19:51,369 --> 00:19:55,330 S2: we sin as individuals, there become a sort of larger 333 00:19:55,330 --> 00:19:58,850 S2: social impact. So, right, in a sense, I think is 334 00:19:58,930 --> 00:20:02,170 S2: very helpful. And in another sense, I think he is 335 00:20:02,170 --> 00:20:08,370 S2: only partially correct because he sort of elevates systemic problems 336 00:20:08,850 --> 00:20:13,050 S2: over the agency of bigger as an individual. And in 337 00:20:13,050 --> 00:20:15,650 S2: my reading of his novel, I try to say no, 338 00:20:15,650 --> 00:20:18,490 S2: it's helpful, and it's important that we hear the reality 339 00:20:18,490 --> 00:20:21,530 S2: of systemic sin and brokenness. But we also need to 340 00:20:21,530 --> 00:20:26,650 S2: see in the novel where bigger has opportunities and agency. 341 00:20:26,930 --> 00:20:29,010 S2: But because of the sin around him and the sin 342 00:20:29,010 --> 00:20:32,410 S2: inside of him, he rejects them. So right is half right. 343 00:20:32,490 --> 00:20:34,590 S2: But I think the half that he's right about is 344 00:20:34,590 --> 00:20:37,190 S2: important for us to hear, because it does align with 345 00:20:37,190 --> 00:20:38,030 S2: biblical truth. 346 00:20:38,590 --> 00:20:39,550 S3: Do you think. 347 00:20:39,550 --> 00:20:44,869 S1: That book written at some other time, other than than 1940, 348 00:20:44,910 --> 00:20:47,150 S1: and a lot of the books that you've chosen here, 349 00:20:47,190 --> 00:20:51,230 S1: the poetry that you've chosen comes in the 20s, 30s, 40s, 350 00:20:51,270 --> 00:20:54,150 S1: 50s right in there when there's so much change that's 351 00:20:54,150 --> 00:20:57,149 S1: going on. Do you think that if it had been 352 00:20:57,150 --> 00:21:01,350 S1: written in 1970, it would have had the same impact 353 00:21:01,350 --> 00:21:02,830 S1: that it did in 1940? 354 00:21:05,190 --> 00:21:08,070 S2: I think in some ways it wouldn't, because there's more 355 00:21:08,070 --> 00:21:11,550 S2: stories and there's more characters, like bigger. Um, you know, 356 00:21:11,590 --> 00:21:14,350 S2: going back to the opening quote that you referenced, in 357 00:21:14,350 --> 00:21:17,310 S2: some ways, he's kind of a groundbreaking character in African 358 00:21:17,310 --> 00:21:20,190 S2: American literature and his modern literature. So I think by 359 00:21:20,190 --> 00:21:22,510 S2: the 70s, you know, there's been there's been more that 360 00:21:22,510 --> 00:21:24,350 S2: has happened. And I would assume, you know, others would 361 00:21:24,350 --> 00:21:27,149 S2: kind of pick up on that theme where this novel 362 00:21:27,190 --> 00:21:29,429 S2: to come later. Um, so I think there's sort of 363 00:21:29,470 --> 00:21:32,649 S2: the groundbreaking impact there. But I think if we go 364 00:21:32,650 --> 00:21:35,810 S2: to the 70s, what you see described in Native Son 365 00:21:35,850 --> 00:21:38,929 S2: here in the 30s, you know, in the 70s and 80s, 366 00:21:38,930 --> 00:21:41,810 S2: you know, our cities in America, um, urban core, were 367 00:21:41,810 --> 00:21:47,010 S2: going through all sorts of turmoil and tragedy. We think 368 00:21:47,050 --> 00:21:52,050 S2: of late 60s assassination of, uh, MLK, JFK, uh, all 369 00:21:52,050 --> 00:21:53,970 S2: sorts of kind of upheaval and chaos. And so I 370 00:21:53,970 --> 00:21:57,090 S2: think it would it would land quite significantly, um, even 371 00:21:57,090 --> 00:21:57,890 S2: in that decade. 372 00:21:58,770 --> 00:22:00,490 S3: 12 days after the publication. 373 00:22:00,490 --> 00:22:04,410 S1: Of Native Son in 1940, which sold more than 200,000 374 00:22:04,410 --> 00:22:08,970 S1: copies in the first three weeks, which is huge now, 375 00:22:08,970 --> 00:22:12,250 S1: but huge back in 1940. Richard Wright gave a talk 376 00:22:12,290 --> 00:22:16,130 S1: at Columbia University called How Bigger Was Born, and this 377 00:22:16,170 --> 00:22:19,570 S1: is I transcribed this from the audio, from the audio book. 378 00:22:19,930 --> 00:22:23,010 S1: And in the conclusion he said this. I don't know 379 00:22:23,010 --> 00:22:25,690 S1: if Native Son is a good book or a bad book, 380 00:22:25,930 --> 00:22:28,010 S1: and I don't know if the book I'm working on 381 00:22:28,010 --> 00:22:30,390 S1: now will be a good book or a bad book. 382 00:22:30,590 --> 00:22:34,590 S1: And I really don't care. The mere writing of it 383 00:22:34,590 --> 00:22:38,790 S1: will be more fun and and a deeper satisfaction than 384 00:22:38,790 --> 00:22:43,709 S1: any praise or blame from anybody. And he was talking 385 00:22:43,710 --> 00:22:47,470 S1: about the process of writing and the process of mining 386 00:22:47,470 --> 00:22:51,910 S1: from himself onto the page. And I think he was 387 00:22:51,910 --> 00:22:54,389 S1: faithful in that, in that story, don't you? 388 00:22:55,430 --> 00:22:58,070 S2: I do. And I think, you know, I admire that 389 00:22:58,070 --> 00:23:00,910 S2: as a, as a creative. And I think also for. Right, 390 00:23:00,950 --> 00:23:04,389 S2: you know, what seems to be operative for him is 391 00:23:04,390 --> 00:23:08,510 S2: this desire to kind of tell the truth, to tell 392 00:23:08,510 --> 00:23:11,950 S2: the truth about what he had seen and also what 393 00:23:11,950 --> 00:23:14,030 S2: he had lived through. Kind of think of his, um, 394 00:23:14,030 --> 00:23:16,830 S2: his memoir, Black Boy, which recounts his journey from the 395 00:23:16,830 --> 00:23:20,149 S2: South to the North. Um, and in many ways, as 396 00:23:20,150 --> 00:23:21,909 S2: people have written, you can you can see some of 397 00:23:21,910 --> 00:23:24,949 S2: the parallels between his story and bigger story. So I 398 00:23:24,950 --> 00:23:28,510 S2: think I admire him as a creative and also, you know, 399 00:23:28,550 --> 00:23:32,060 S2: his sense of calling to declare the truth even in 400 00:23:32,060 --> 00:23:34,740 S2: ways that are, I think, as you mentioned, you know, 401 00:23:34,740 --> 00:23:37,980 S2: very difficult to read. Um, and, you know, we can 402 00:23:38,020 --> 00:23:40,660 S2: question some of the merits of the novel in some senses, 403 00:23:40,660 --> 00:23:43,860 S2: but he has a sense of calling to declare what 404 00:23:43,859 --> 00:23:45,460 S2: he sees as as truthful. 405 00:23:46,820 --> 00:23:49,740 S1: Claude Acho is with us today. Reading Black Books is 406 00:23:49,740 --> 00:23:53,500 S1: our featured resource at Chris Faber Lives. If you go 407 00:23:53,500 --> 00:23:56,020 S1: to the website, click through today's information. Let me just 408 00:23:56,020 --> 00:24:00,260 S1: give you a rundown. There are ten authors, ten works 409 00:24:00,260 --> 00:24:03,300 S1: that you go through in the entire book. And, uh, 410 00:24:03,300 --> 00:24:07,260 S1: the second chapter is about Richard Wright's native son. We're 411 00:24:07,260 --> 00:24:10,500 S1: going to talk about Ralph Ellison's Invisible Man, which would 412 00:24:10,500 --> 00:24:14,340 S1: go right, right here we'd go. Very well. James Baldwin's 413 00:24:14,380 --> 00:24:18,260 S1: Go Tell It on the mountain, Zora Neale Hurston's Moses, 414 00:24:18,260 --> 00:24:22,460 S1: man of the mountain. Um, let's see Toni Morrison, we 415 00:24:22,500 --> 00:24:25,740 S1: gotta talk about Toni Morrison's Beloved because there is another 416 00:24:25,740 --> 00:24:28,360 S1: I told you before the program, there's another novel that 417 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,879 S1: I have tried to read several times, that I just 418 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,560 S1: have not been able to get all the way through, 419 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:37,040 S1: and you're not going to throw any stones at you. 420 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:38,399 S1: Understand that, right? 421 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:40,960 S2: I understand it is not an easy one in content 422 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:41,880 S2: and in form. 423 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:42,800 S3: Yeah. 424 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:45,880 S1: But there's reason and and just close the loop on 425 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:50,760 S1: Richard Wright that that chapter is about sin. So what 426 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,159 S1: do you mean you're not just saying, okay, here's a 427 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,880 S1: book about sin. Read Richard Wright's Native Son. That is 428 00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,560 S1: kind of the thread that runs through it, right? 429 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:04,520 S2: Absolutely. I think, you know, reading Native Son, um, I 430 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:09,600 S2: think theologically, you're you're really attuned to the gravity of 431 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:13,720 S2: sin and how serious sin is, uh, and how deeply 432 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,200 S2: we need a redeemer and how deeply we need rescue, 433 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,959 S2: how deeply we need God's grace to truly know how 434 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:23,400 S2: to love our neighbors. Um, and I think in particular 435 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,820 S2: in Native Son, the readers who are reading Christianly are 436 00:25:26,820 --> 00:25:31,700 S2: recognizing that sin is. It's not a simple choice between 437 00:25:31,740 --> 00:25:34,179 S2: is there such a thing as systemic sin or is 438 00:25:34,180 --> 00:25:39,340 S2: there personal sin? But rather sin is so deep that 439 00:25:39,340 --> 00:25:42,740 S2: it runs in every direction, and we need the in-breaking 440 00:25:42,740 --> 00:25:45,139 S2: grace of God to give us wisdom on how to 441 00:25:45,180 --> 00:25:46,379 S2: move toward righteousness. 442 00:25:46,700 --> 00:25:49,780 S1: Reading Christianly, we're going to talk more about that with 443 00:25:49,780 --> 00:25:53,260 S1: Claude Acho. This is Chris Fabry live on Moody Radio. 444 00:26:05,700 --> 00:26:08,580 S1: We're talking with author and pastor Claude Acho today. He 445 00:26:08,580 --> 00:26:12,260 S1: is pastor of church of the Resurrection in Charlottesville, Virginia. 446 00:26:12,820 --> 00:26:16,139 S1: He's taught African American literature at the collegiate level. The 447 00:26:16,180 --> 00:26:19,420 S1: book that he's written and came out a couple of. Well, 448 00:26:19,460 --> 00:26:23,980 S1: in 2022 is Reading Black Books How African American Literature 449 00:26:23,980 --> 00:26:27,720 S1: Can Make Our faith more whole and just. It was 450 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,840 S1: a Christianity Today 2023 Book Award finalist in the Culture 451 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:36,520 S1: and Arts category, and in the Religion Philosophy category for 452 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:40,720 S1: Midwest Book Review. It won gold in 2023, so it's 453 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,000 S1: an excellent resource. I wanted to bring it to you 454 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,240 S1: here today, but I wanted to bring you Claude today 455 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,040 S1: because he's going to take us through. He's just taking 456 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,800 S1: us through. Richard Wright, Native Son, there's another story by 457 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,640 S1: Richard Wright that's included in the book, too. What is that? 458 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:57,960 S2: Yeah. The other story by Richard Wright is the man 459 00:26:57,960 --> 00:26:59,600 S2: who lived underground. 460 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:02,760 S1: What's that about? I haven't read that. 461 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:07,480 S2: So this is one, interestingly enough, uh, this was first 462 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:12,880 S2: a short story and then, uh, years later, as literary manager, 463 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:18,399 S2: executor of his estate, discovered the full kind of novella manuscript. 464 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,880 S2: And so this actually was released, uh, just a few 465 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,699 S2: years ago, uh, right in time for me to include it. 466 00:27:24,740 --> 00:27:27,380 S2: While I was working on the first drafts for the novel, 467 00:27:27,580 --> 00:27:30,500 S2: and it tells the story of a character, Fred Daniels, 468 00:27:30,500 --> 00:27:32,899 S2: who in a lot of ways is the total opposite 469 00:27:32,900 --> 00:27:37,100 S2: of bigger. Um, he is virtuous. He goes to church. Uh, 470 00:27:37,100 --> 00:27:39,900 S2: he's a he's a sort of a decent, upstanding guy. 471 00:27:40,140 --> 00:27:42,700 S2: And right away, within the first couple of pages, uh, 472 00:27:42,700 --> 00:27:46,060 S2: he's arrested and falsely accused of murder. And then it 473 00:27:46,100 --> 00:27:48,859 S2: sort of tells the story of his kind of unraveling 474 00:27:48,859 --> 00:27:52,300 S2: as he begins to reckon with what bigger reckoned with, uh, 475 00:27:52,300 --> 00:27:57,659 S2: which is the injustice of, uh, racism and a broken society. 476 00:27:58,020 --> 00:28:01,540 S1: Um, there's so many good books to read out there. Okay. 477 00:28:01,780 --> 00:28:03,540 S1: The next one, though, that I want to go to 478 00:28:03,580 --> 00:28:07,780 S1: is Ralph Ellison, Invisible Man. And you say that it 479 00:28:07,780 --> 00:28:11,940 S1: presents a question. What kind of society will make them 480 00:28:11,980 --> 00:28:16,420 S1: see me? For Justin, whole believers, such an inquiry cannot 481 00:28:16,420 --> 00:28:19,900 S1: be answered only sociologically. The question begs to be read 482 00:28:19,900 --> 00:28:23,800 S1: as a theological ask how do we see and order 483 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:28,280 S1: human relation so that the God given dignity of people 484 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:33,520 S1: is seen and not denied? So tell me about invisible. The. 485 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,159 S1: The main character is never given a name in the 486 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:37,600 S1: entire novel, right? 487 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,960 S2: He's not. He's not given a name. So, uh, myself 488 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,160 S2: and others often take to calling him invisible, um, as 489 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,240 S2: the name instead of just always saying the protagonist. Um, 490 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,880 S2: but yeah, right from the jump of this novel, it's 491 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:54,600 S2: a really compelling opening. Uh, you have invisible, uh, talking 492 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,160 S2: now from an underground basement. Interesting, right? Links to, uh, 493 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:02,360 S2: the man who lived Underground, uh, which I just described briefly. Um, 494 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,720 S2: Ellison and Wright were friends. And in fact, uh, at 495 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,480 S2: one point, Wright told Ellison, uh, to kind of stop 496 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,080 S2: copying some of his drafts. Um, Wright was sort of 497 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,880 S2: like the big brother in the relationship there. So there's 498 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:18,560 S2: an interesting parallel, because invisible begins with a reflection from 499 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:22,860 S2: underground outside of society, looking back and telling his story, 500 00:29:22,860 --> 00:29:26,500 S2: and he details that he is an invisible man because 501 00:29:26,500 --> 00:29:28,940 S2: people don't see him. And he says it's not because 502 00:29:28,940 --> 00:29:31,940 S2: of anything that's wrong with him physically, but he actually 503 00:29:31,940 --> 00:29:37,220 S2: he says his invisibility occurs because of a peculiar disposition 504 00:29:37,220 --> 00:29:40,260 S2: of the eyes of those with whom I come in contact, 505 00:29:40,540 --> 00:29:44,260 S2: because of the matter of the construction of their inner eyes, 506 00:29:44,500 --> 00:29:47,020 S2: which I think is the sort of thing for theologically 507 00:29:47,020 --> 00:29:51,740 S2: minded readers, for believers as well, uh, helps us to see, oh, okay. 508 00:29:51,780 --> 00:29:56,140 S2: This is a deep matter of, uh, of spirit and soul, um, 509 00:29:56,180 --> 00:30:00,380 S2: and of our formation and so invisible, uh, retells his story. 510 00:30:00,380 --> 00:30:03,260 S2: And basically it's a travelogue of all of the places 511 00:30:03,260 --> 00:30:07,060 S2: and ways in which he tries to assert himself and 512 00:30:07,060 --> 00:30:11,140 S2: to be seen as worthy of dignity. He tries education 513 00:30:11,340 --> 00:30:17,420 S2: that goes sideways. He tries political activism. Uh, he gets 514 00:30:17,420 --> 00:30:21,880 S2: involved in what? Ellison? Uh, very, uh, thinly and a 515 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,640 S2: veiled fashion is critiquing as a Communist party, uh, that 516 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,840 S2: goes sideways and at every point invisible enters into these 517 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:35,520 S2: different domains, hoping that achieving something within them will cause 518 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,800 S2: people to respect him, to treat him as an equal, 519 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,000 S2: to treat him as a human. And at every point 520 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,880 S2: in turn, uh, he's gravely disappointed. And so the novel 521 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:51,280 S2: really is the sort of search for recognition, for visibility. 522 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,320 S2: And one of the reasons I think Ellison doesn't name 523 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,560 S2: the protagonist is because he wants it to be universal. 524 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,840 S2: He wants his readers to see Invisibles journey and to 525 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:06,000 S2: say and to ask, does this not in some way 526 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:07,240 S2: mirror my own? 527 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:12,959 S1: Yes, but that is it is universal. Everybody wants to 528 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,600 S1: be seen and known in in some by someone or 529 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:21,940 S1: by some. Some, even by God. But as you read that, 530 00:31:21,940 --> 00:31:25,020 S1: as you put that through your own lens of your 531 00:31:25,020 --> 00:31:28,980 S1: own experience, how did you respond? Have you ever felt 532 00:31:29,260 --> 00:31:30,620 S1: what invisible felt? 533 00:31:31,780 --> 00:31:34,980 S2: Absolutely. Yeah. And I think where I have overlap with 534 00:31:34,980 --> 00:31:37,979 S2: this novel and obviously part of the, um, part of 535 00:31:37,980 --> 00:31:41,380 S2: the sort of, um, target of the novel in, in 536 00:31:41,420 --> 00:31:45,140 S2: many respects is the particulars of African American experience. And so, 537 00:31:45,300 --> 00:31:47,060 S2: you know, I talk about it within the book. I 538 00:31:47,060 --> 00:31:50,220 S2: can think of times, really potent times in my life 539 00:31:50,660 --> 00:31:54,740 S2: where something was said to me by a white classmate 540 00:31:54,860 --> 00:31:58,340 S2: in particular that, um, just sort of for a moment 541 00:31:58,380 --> 00:32:00,420 S2: kind of cut through all my experience. And it was 542 00:32:00,460 --> 00:32:02,580 S2: sort of the sense of like, oh, that's how you 543 00:32:02,580 --> 00:32:06,540 S2: really see me. You know, I talk about in the chapter, um, 544 00:32:06,580 --> 00:32:10,380 S2: after some, I think, relatively innocuous sort of elementary school, 545 00:32:10,580 --> 00:32:14,380 S2: you know, issue, uh, you know, a white student who 546 00:32:14,420 --> 00:32:16,420 S2: shared the table with me at art school saying, you know, 547 00:32:16,460 --> 00:32:19,080 S2: I wish, I wish we still had you as slaves. 548 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:21,640 S2: And that was sort of a moment that seemed to 549 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:25,400 S2: kind of come out of nowhere and sort of unearth something, um, 550 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,760 S2: a desire, a belief, a way that I was seeing 551 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,800 S2: that I just I just did not see that coming. 552 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:36,240 S2: And so I think there is that sort of universality 553 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:40,640 S2: and particularity that Ellison has in mind for his readers 554 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:44,160 S2: the invisibility of black experience, I think, in a particular way. 555 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:49,160 S1: So as somebody reading it from another perspective, from a 556 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:53,600 S1: white perspective, and looking at it through our own theological 557 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:57,040 S1: lens and social lens and experience lens, I mean, I 558 00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:01,320 S1: can I can, uh, pinpoint times when I've been speaking 559 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:06,200 S1: with someone in a room, uh, you know, important people 560 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,400 S1: when the person I am talking with is looking over 561 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,320 S1: my shoulder at somebody a lot more important than I 562 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,280 S1: am and wanting to talk with them. You know, I 563 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,460 S1: could looking past me and it's like, I get that 564 00:33:17,460 --> 00:33:20,540 S1: I probably have done it myself, but not because of 565 00:33:20,540 --> 00:33:23,860 S1: the color of my skin. Right. Mhm. 566 00:33:25,300 --> 00:33:29,540 S2: Yeah. There's sort of a, um, a level of value 567 00:33:29,540 --> 00:33:32,620 S2: or status that people see us with or choose not 568 00:33:32,620 --> 00:33:34,860 S2: to see us with. And that's the sort of same, 569 00:33:35,300 --> 00:33:40,540 S2: same sort of commodification, the same sort of broken site, um, that, 570 00:33:40,540 --> 00:33:43,260 S2: that can occur, uh, on the sort of racial and 571 00:33:43,260 --> 00:33:45,820 S2: ethnic level. I think one of the things that's really 572 00:33:45,820 --> 00:33:49,180 S2: interesting about Ellison in regards to the question of invisibility 573 00:33:49,180 --> 00:33:52,420 S2: and our and our own sort of experience in our stories, 574 00:33:52,700 --> 00:33:56,220 S2: is that, um, you know, Ellison really did not want 575 00:33:56,220 --> 00:34:00,460 S2: to be pigeonholed as a writer who only speaks or 576 00:34:00,460 --> 00:34:04,220 S2: spoke to the black experience. Um, and this was in 577 00:34:04,220 --> 00:34:09,300 S2: part because of, um, his his, uh, yeah, his standing 578 00:34:09,300 --> 00:34:12,180 S2: and his belief in, in his country even as he 579 00:34:12,180 --> 00:34:16,160 S2: critiqued it, but also because of his belief about literature that, uh, 580 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,520 S2: good literature, true literature. For Ellison, it it's going to 581 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:24,120 S2: speak to particulars, but it's also going to speak to universals. And, uh, 582 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:28,360 S2: you see this in the ending of Invisible Man, where 583 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,920 S2: the protagonist asks the question, you know, who knows if, 584 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:35,240 S2: but on the lower frequencies that I also speak for you. 585 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,200 S2: So the novel begins with this declaration I am an 586 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,120 S2: invisible man, a focus on the I, the particular of 587 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:43,520 S2: the story of the protagonist. But then it ends with 588 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,440 S2: the you. This question. You know where in this novel, 589 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,839 S2: where in this story, where invisible story do do we 590 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:52,399 S2: see something of our own story? And I think, you know, yes, 591 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,200 S2: it's particular to black experience. Don't want to lose that. 592 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:57,200 S2: I think that would be a misreading. But I think 593 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:02,000 S2: Ellison has also in mind that telling the truth about 594 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,040 S2: the black experience is also telling the truth about human 595 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:06,759 S2: experience more broadly. 596 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:10,480 S1: Well, and that quote that you have, uh, I don't 597 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:14,660 S1: know what part of the novel it's in, but invisible says, 598 00:35:14,660 --> 00:35:17,500 S1: all my life I had been looking for something. And 599 00:35:17,500 --> 00:35:20,940 S1: everywhere I turned, someone tried to tell me what it was. 600 00:35:21,219 --> 00:35:26,299 S1: I was looking for myself. That speaks to everybody, you know. 601 00:35:26,340 --> 00:35:29,700 S1: Who are you? Really? Uh. And you mentioned that that 602 00:35:29,700 --> 00:35:34,739 S1: those two, uh, to each other. Ellison and Wright. James 603 00:35:34,739 --> 00:35:38,339 S1: Baldwin also knew Richard Wright. And I think there was 604 00:35:38,340 --> 00:35:41,540 S1: a fallout at some point in their relationship in Paris 605 00:35:41,540 --> 00:35:45,540 S1: or whatever. But I read something about Baldwin and his 606 00:35:45,540 --> 00:35:48,940 S1: novel in your book is go tell It on the mountain. Uh, 607 00:35:48,940 --> 00:35:52,339 S1: Baldwin said, uh, about I think it was in like 608 00:35:52,340 --> 00:35:56,219 S1: an elementary school teacher. He went to P.S. 152 or 609 00:35:56,260 --> 00:35:59,940 S1: whatever it was, but he said he named the teacher 610 00:36:00,340 --> 00:36:03,500 S1: and and said she is the reason why I've never 611 00:36:03,500 --> 00:36:07,540 S1: been able to hate white people because she had such 612 00:36:07,580 --> 00:36:12,239 S1: an impact on him and gave him kind of wings. Uh, 613 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:15,080 S1: for for his writing and for his life. So let 614 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:18,239 S1: me take a quick break. We'll come back with James Baldwin. 615 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,279 S1: We got to get to Countee Cullen and a and 616 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,080 S1: a poet, a poem that we're going to read here 617 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:28,399 S1: from the book Reading Black Books by Claude Acho. It's 618 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:43,080 S1: our featured resource. Just go to Chris. I hope you're 619 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,200 S1: having half as much fun as I am talking with 620 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:47,440 S1: Claude Acho today. He is pastor of church of the 621 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,800 S1: Resurrection in Charlottesville, Virginia. You can find out more about 622 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,920 S1: him and the book that came out almost four years ago, 623 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:58,439 S1: Reading Black Books How African American Literature Can Make Our 624 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:02,480 S1: Faith more Whole. And just just click through today's information 625 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:08,000 S1: right there, Chris. We've only scratched the surface here, as 626 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,620 S1: they say. I want you to tell me about, James 627 00:37:10,620 --> 00:37:15,500 S1: Baldwin's semi-autobiographical novel Go Tell It on the mountain. This 628 00:37:15,500 --> 00:37:18,219 S1: came out in 53. Why is it important? 629 00:37:19,460 --> 00:37:22,140 S2: Go down to the mountain, I think is really important. Um, 630 00:37:22,219 --> 00:37:25,379 S2: because it's the sort of novel that can only be 631 00:37:25,380 --> 00:37:30,259 S2: written by somebody who is really up front and close 632 00:37:30,260 --> 00:37:33,739 S2: in a particular church experience. The novel takes place in 633 00:37:33,739 --> 00:37:38,259 S2: one day. Most of its key moments are outside of 634 00:37:38,260 --> 00:37:42,140 S2: the flashbacks are actually set within a church context, and 635 00:37:42,140 --> 00:37:46,060 S2: it tells the story of a young boy on his birthday, uh, 636 00:37:46,100 --> 00:37:51,180 S2: turning 13. Uh, the character, uh, John Grimes. This is 637 00:37:51,219 --> 00:37:55,980 S2: sort of James Baldwin's, uh, literary alter ego and, uh, 638 00:37:55,980 --> 00:37:59,580 S2: John Grimes, he's kind of coming up in a very 639 00:37:59,620 --> 00:38:04,939 S2: we would describe legalistic, kind of holiness, Pentecostal, uh, context, uh, 640 00:38:04,940 --> 00:38:08,500 S2: storefront church in, uh, in New York City. And he 641 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,920 S2: doesn't want anything to do with church and the God 642 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,799 S2: he sees there. He especially wants nothing to do with 643 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:21,760 S2: God because his stepfather, Gabriel, um, is the preacher and 644 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:26,640 S2: he is a, um, he's sort of the stereotypical, uh, 645 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:32,799 S2: religiously and physically abusive stepfather. And so John wants everything, uh, 646 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,480 S2: to do. Uh, he wants to go out in the world. 647 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:39,680 S2: He sees the church as, uh, stifling. And yet in 648 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,680 S2: the story of the novel he he's drawn in toward, 649 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:46,040 S2: he's drawn in toward the faith. And it raises the question, uh, 650 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:50,279 S2: is John going to experience God truly in this environment 651 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:53,040 S2: and in this faith, or is he going to be 652 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:58,160 S2: subject to the sort of toxicity of legalism, uh, and 653 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:02,040 S2: abuse that's happening within the church? So it raises questions about, uh, 654 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:04,800 S2: where do we really see a true picture and character 655 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:05,400 S2: of God. 656 00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:08,630 S1: That harkens back to a guest we had on a 657 00:39:08,630 --> 00:39:13,109 S1: little earlier this week whose father was an evangelist. You know, 658 00:39:13,150 --> 00:39:16,910 S1: went around the country and was very abusive to his 659 00:39:16,989 --> 00:39:19,469 S1: this fellow's mother. And so he did the same thing 660 00:39:19,469 --> 00:39:22,030 S1: he didn't want anything to do with God. Got into drinking, 661 00:39:22,070 --> 00:39:25,910 S1: got into to pills, got into crystal meth, became a 662 00:39:25,910 --> 00:39:29,029 S1: crystal meth addict, was high on crystal meth when he 663 00:39:29,030 --> 00:39:33,750 S1: went to a Billy Graham crusade event and, you know, 664 00:39:33,790 --> 00:39:36,109 S1: ran out of there. But God grabbed grabbed Ahold of 665 00:39:36,110 --> 00:39:40,509 S1: his heart later on. So, uh, you know, the it's 666 00:39:40,550 --> 00:39:45,790 S1: almost like, uh, art imitates life, imitates fiction, imitates, you know, 667 00:39:45,830 --> 00:39:48,230 S1: what God is doing in the world today. So that's 668 00:39:48,230 --> 00:39:51,589 S1: James Baldwin's Go Tell It on the mountain. I want 669 00:39:51,630 --> 00:39:55,109 S1: to read you from a website that got five stars 670 00:39:55,110 --> 00:39:58,030 S1: for your book. And this is what the review said. 671 00:39:58,230 --> 00:40:00,509 S1: It's a great read. I'm not even sure how to 672 00:40:00,550 --> 00:40:03,589 S1: encapsulate my thoughts on it, but let me say the 673 00:40:03,590 --> 00:40:08,930 S1: chapter Jesus on the Poetry of Countee Cullen is brilliant 674 00:40:08,930 --> 00:40:14,930 S1: and a master class on discipleship, suffering, identity, projecting on 675 00:40:14,969 --> 00:40:18,610 S1: to Jesus. This one chapter could literally be a course 676 00:40:18,610 --> 00:40:23,530 S1: in Christian discipleship, handling multiple aspects of the life of faith. 677 00:40:23,770 --> 00:40:25,969 S1: Did you? Is that your mom who wrote that? I 678 00:40:25,969 --> 00:40:28,450 S1: just said it was. 679 00:40:28,650 --> 00:40:32,050 S2: You know, maybe it was. I have not heard that review. 680 00:40:32,090 --> 00:40:34,169 S2: I try to stay away from the reviews, but. Well, 681 00:40:34,210 --> 00:40:35,130 S2: that's really encouraging. 682 00:40:35,650 --> 00:40:38,730 S1: But why? Why do you think they resonated so much 683 00:40:38,730 --> 00:40:40,730 S1: with the poetry of Countee Cullen? 684 00:40:41,610 --> 00:40:44,810 S2: Well, you know, the poetry of Countee Cullen. He's got 685 00:40:44,850 --> 00:40:46,930 S2: two poems that I look at in the book, The 686 00:40:46,930 --> 00:40:50,930 S2: Black Christ and Christ Recrucified. And he he's making the 687 00:40:50,930 --> 00:40:55,410 S2: connection in the poems to lynched African Americans in the 688 00:40:55,410 --> 00:41:00,170 S2: Cross of Jesus, uh, which African American theologians and preachers, um, 689 00:41:00,170 --> 00:41:03,330 S2: and poets as well, uh, have have been doing for 690 00:41:03,330 --> 00:41:07,350 S2: quite some time. And, you know, in the poems, um, 691 00:41:07,430 --> 00:41:12,030 S2: he's making this, uh, this link between the suffering of, 692 00:41:12,190 --> 00:41:18,790 S2: of black people innocently being lynched in a way, a 693 00:41:18,790 --> 00:41:23,989 S2: form of death that's meant to to deeply derogate and inflict, uh, 694 00:41:23,989 --> 00:41:27,190 S2: deep violence and trauma, uh, on a human person. 695 00:41:27,230 --> 00:41:27,590 S1: Terror. 696 00:41:27,710 --> 00:41:30,549 S2: Terror. Yeah. It's an act of terror, which is the 697 00:41:30,550 --> 00:41:34,470 S2: same as Roman crucifixion, a sort of public declaration of 698 00:41:34,510 --> 00:41:37,149 S2: force and power and a way of saying that this 699 00:41:37,150 --> 00:41:42,470 S2: victim is subhuman. Uh, and those who align with this victim, uh, 700 00:41:42,750 --> 00:41:46,029 S2: can expect this same sort of fate. And, uh, I 701 00:41:46,030 --> 00:41:50,510 S2: think Cullen's poetry is powerful, because that can only really 702 00:41:50,510 --> 00:41:55,350 S2: come from both knowledge of the scriptures and the trauma 703 00:41:55,350 --> 00:41:59,190 S2: of experiencing that terror in your life and within your community. 704 00:41:59,550 --> 00:42:03,230 S2: And so, through the chapter, uh, I try to engage 705 00:42:03,330 --> 00:42:08,810 S2: with Collins poems to help us see the humility and 706 00:42:08,810 --> 00:42:12,970 S2: the wonder and the identification that Jesus takes with us 707 00:42:13,170 --> 00:42:17,050 S2: in dying, for us in dying. Uh, in in relation 708 00:42:17,050 --> 00:42:19,650 S2: to the lynched and dying like them, uh, and in 709 00:42:19,690 --> 00:42:22,810 S2: that solidarity overcoming the evil of this world. 710 00:42:24,090 --> 00:42:27,850 S1: Just the first few lines of the black Christ. Uh, 711 00:42:27,850 --> 00:42:32,850 S1: how Calvary in Palestine extending down to me and mine 712 00:42:33,370 --> 00:42:37,050 S1: was but the first leaf in a line of trees 713 00:42:37,050 --> 00:42:41,410 S1: on which a man should swing world without end in 714 00:42:41,410 --> 00:42:47,730 S1: suffering for all men's healing. Let me sing. And last 715 00:42:47,730 --> 00:42:50,610 S1: week I mentioned to you before the program last week, 716 00:42:50,650 --> 00:42:55,009 S1: we talked about that Strange Fruit song that was sung 717 00:42:55,010 --> 00:42:58,410 S1: by Billie Holiday. This has echoes of that in it 718 00:42:58,410 --> 00:42:59,010 S1: to me. 719 00:42:59,650 --> 00:43:04,150 S2: Mhm. Absolutely. And you know, you think about the shock 720 00:43:04,150 --> 00:43:08,110 S2: of this poem. Um, there's sort of twofold, uh, in 721 00:43:08,110 --> 00:43:13,590 S2: one sense, it's a condemnation of this act of evil, uh, 722 00:43:13,590 --> 00:43:19,750 S2: seen in lynching, um, particularly given that lynching is, was 723 00:43:19,750 --> 00:43:25,510 S2: predominantly happening in American South among American churchgoers. Uh, but 724 00:43:25,510 --> 00:43:29,590 S2: at a secondary level, the poem, I think, is reflecting 725 00:43:29,590 --> 00:43:32,989 S2: biblical truth, because it's giving us a sort of shock 726 00:43:32,989 --> 00:43:35,509 S2: to our imagination. The poem is really, in a sense, 727 00:43:35,510 --> 00:43:40,870 S2: demanding that readers see and consider Jesus as with and 728 00:43:40,870 --> 00:43:45,430 S2: among those who are deeply wounded and forsaken, that our 729 00:43:45,430 --> 00:43:48,230 S2: God is the crucified God. Uh, that in his human 730 00:43:48,230 --> 00:43:53,109 S2: nature he truly suffers, uh, for us. And that's what 731 00:43:53,110 --> 00:43:56,069 S2: we see in the cross. We see that in the 732 00:43:56,070 --> 00:44:01,490 S2: suffering of Christ, we have salvation. Uh, and so this poem, 733 00:44:01,489 --> 00:44:06,089 S2: I think, in that sense highlights both the critique of lynching. 734 00:44:06,290 --> 00:44:09,569 S2: But it read theologically. It shows the glory of the cross. 735 00:44:09,969 --> 00:44:14,650 S2: It shows the depths of God's saving solidarity for a 736 00:44:14,650 --> 00:44:15,490 S2: sinful world. 737 00:44:16,210 --> 00:44:20,290 S1: God with us, Emmanuel, and with us in the middle 738 00:44:20,330 --> 00:44:23,210 S1: of and go through the Psalms. Look at how. And 739 00:44:23,210 --> 00:44:25,850 S1: there's a there's a chapter in here on lament about 740 00:44:25,850 --> 00:44:29,210 S1: the litany of Atlanta. Oh, there's so much to talk about. 741 00:44:29,210 --> 00:44:32,169 S1: And we didn't get to Zora Neale Hurston's Moses man 742 00:44:32,170 --> 00:44:34,890 S1: of the mountain. Uh, a minute and a half. Tell 743 00:44:34,890 --> 00:44:39,570 S1: me about why Toni Morrison's beloved, what that novel does. 744 00:44:40,290 --> 00:44:44,930 S2: Oh, man. Uh, Toni Morrison's beloved. Uh, again, it's not 745 00:44:44,930 --> 00:44:48,330 S2: easy to read in content or in form, but it's worth. 746 00:44:48,450 --> 00:44:50,569 S2: It's worth pushing through. I hope my chapter can be 747 00:44:50,570 --> 00:44:53,210 S2: a guide for listeners who take up the book. Uh, 748 00:44:53,210 --> 00:44:56,049 S2: it's dealing with, uh, how do we heal from the 749 00:44:56,050 --> 00:45:01,029 S2: wounds of memory? Uh, it's dealing with characters who have 750 00:45:01,030 --> 00:45:04,549 S2: moved out of, uh, move out of the plantation and 751 00:45:04,550 --> 00:45:07,790 S2: are living in, uh, living in Ohio. Uh, and yet 752 00:45:07,790 --> 00:45:12,669 S2: they're hunted, um, both existentially, um, and actually, uh, by 753 00:45:12,670 --> 00:45:16,109 S2: a spirit. And how do they heal? And I think 754 00:45:16,110 --> 00:45:20,230 S2: what's powerful about beloved is that that healing only comes 755 00:45:20,550 --> 00:45:26,069 S2: through community. Uh, and I think for theological readers, for Christians, uh, 756 00:45:26,070 --> 00:45:28,430 S2: we can see that that healing is going to come 757 00:45:28,430 --> 00:45:30,670 S2: through the community of God's people and the hope of 758 00:45:30,670 --> 00:45:33,790 S2: the gospel and Morrison and some really interesting ways, I think, 759 00:45:33,830 --> 00:45:36,230 S2: does point toward that direction. 760 00:45:36,270 --> 00:45:36,670 S1: Yeah. 761 00:45:37,590 --> 00:45:39,750 S4: It's a fascinating, fascinating. 762 00:45:39,750 --> 00:45:41,910 S1: Book with a lot of stories in here. And again, 763 00:45:41,910 --> 00:45:46,670 S1: we just scratched the surface with Claude Acho reading black books, 764 00:45:46,670 --> 00:45:50,109 S1: how African American literature can make our faith more whole. 765 00:45:50,110 --> 00:45:54,870 S1: And just go to the website. Chris. Org click through. 766 00:45:54,910 --> 00:45:58,290 S1: You can see more about the book and see of 767 00:45:58,410 --> 00:46:02,250 S1: the different authors, the different novels, the, the poetry that 768 00:46:02,250 --> 00:46:06,089 S1: is included in there. Claude, I can't thank you enough for, uh, 769 00:46:06,090 --> 00:46:09,129 S1: for coming along here for years, almost after the book 770 00:46:09,130 --> 00:46:11,690 S1: came out. I'm sorry I'm late, but it was a 771 00:46:11,690 --> 00:46:14,210 S1: good late party that we had here today. Thanks for 772 00:46:14,210 --> 00:46:19,810 S1: doing that. Claude is pastor of church of the Resurrection 773 00:46:19,810 --> 00:46:23,970 S1: in Charlottesville, Virginia, and you can find out more about him. 774 00:46:23,969 --> 00:46:27,489 S1: As I said, right there at Chris Faber Livorno, the 775 00:46:27,489 --> 00:46:32,010 S1: title is Reading Black Books. All right. Tomorrow on the program, 776 00:46:32,010 --> 00:46:35,850 S1: we have a best of broadcast. What is the keepsake 777 00:46:35,890 --> 00:46:39,250 S1: you where? I'm going back to 2020 4th October of 778 00:46:39,250 --> 00:46:43,529 S1: 2024 and find out what is the thing that you 779 00:46:43,530 --> 00:46:46,250 S1: wear that helps you remember. We'll do that tomorrow. On 780 00:46:46,250 --> 00:46:49,529 S1: Chris favorite live production of Moody Radio, a ministry of 781 00:46:49,570 --> 00:46:51,250 S1: Moody Bible Institute.