S1: Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast
S1: and I truly hope you hear something that edifies encourage, equips, enlightens,
S1: and then gets you out there in the marketplace of ideas.
S1: But before you go, I want to tell you about
S1: this month's truth tool. It's called Have You Ever Wondered?
S1: And I absolutely love this topic because if you're like me,
S1: going out into the night sky and looking up and
S1: seeing a million stars, don't you just stop and think
S1: about God? And are you not in a moment of
S1: awe and wonder or looking out over the vast expanse
S1: of an ocean and you start thinking, what is man,
S1: that thou art mindful of him? And it makes you
S1: wonder about the magnificence of God? I think that sense
S1: of wonder was put there on purpose, and this wonderful
S1: book includes a composite of multiple authors who have written
S1: from their perspective as a scientist, or a historian, or
S1: a mathematician or an artist, on why they all have
S1: this sense of awe through the work that they do.
S1: In other words, the heavens declare the glory. And as
S1: it tells us in Romans, we are really without excuse
S1: because his handiwork is everywhere. And this book invites you
S1: to walk through the chapters written by people who all
S1: have a sense of awe and wonder when it comes
S1: to God through their various disciplines in life. It's an
S1: amazing book and it's yours. For a gift of any amount,
S1: just call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58. Ask
S1: for a copy of Have You Ever Wondered? And we'll
S1: send it right off to you as my way of
S1: saying thank you, because we are listener supported radio. Or
S1: you can go online to in the market with Janet Parshall.
S1: When you're also on the website, consider becoming a partial partner.
S1: Those are people who give every single month at a
S1: level of their own choosing. You always get the truth tool,
S1: but in addition to that, you get a weekly newsletter
S1: that includes my writing and an audio piece just for
S1: my partial partners. So 877 Janet 58 or the website
S1: in the market with Janet parshall.org consider becoming a partial
S1: partner or asking for this month's truth tool. Have you
S1: ever wondered? And now please enjoy the broadcast. Hi, friends,
S1: this is Janet Parshall. Thanks so much for choosing to
S1: spend the next hour with us. Today's program is pre-recorded
S1: so our phone lines are not open. But thanks so
S1: much for being with us and enjoy the broadcast.
S2: Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3: The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4: Americans worshiping government over God.
S3: Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years.
S4: The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated every time.
S3: We hear a lot of.
S1: Who do you hear all that cacophony in the marketplace
S1: of ideas. My oh my, oh my, what a busy,
S1: bustling place that is. But John Bunyan was right. He
S1: said we must needs pass through it. No detours around
S1: the marketplace of ideas. Right smack dab in the middle.
S1: And you know what? I think it's pretty safe to
S1: say that one of the busiest booths in the marketplace
S1: is going to be the booth called religion. Notice I
S1: didn't say Christianity, I said religion. All kinds of people
S1: are going to stop by and they're going to check
S1: it out, and some are going to stay and linger
S1: and others are going to move on. But I'll tell
S1: you what, Christian and faithful had the right response after
S1: getting over their embarrassment of being recognized. They said, we
S1: only buy the truth. Uh oh. Two presuppositions in that declaration.
S1: A they could tell truth from falsehood, and b somebody
S1: was already there handing out the truth. That's you and me.
S1: So should Jesus tarry? The gospel needs to go forward.
S1: By the way, that is not a special gifting or
S1: a special calling. Go and tell is about as universal
S1: a directive as any Christ follower can get. But we don't.
S1: We're going to get into some of the reasons why
S1: in a little bit. But in particular, focus this hour
S1: is going to be that up and coming generation. How
S1: do we train them? Because, you know, if you don't
S1: train them, here's what's going to happen. Colossians A whole
S1: lot of people are going to be taken captive through
S1: vain and hollow philosophies predicated on this world, rather than
S1: the Word of God. So how do we train young
S1: Christians to contend for the faith to know? As Doctor
S1: Paul Little said so long ago and so rightly, what
S1: we believe and why we believe it. By the way,
S1: that kind of applies for the older generations as well.
S1: So we're going to talk with two excellent apologists this hour.
S1: I'm so excited. Can you tell we're going to talk
S1: to two apologists who are going to tell us how
S1: we can train young Christians in a challenging world. They've
S1: jointly written a book called so the Next Generation Will Know.
S1: We're going to open the phone lines for your questions
S1: as well. But first, I want to get into this
S1: conversation with Doctor Sean McDowell. Yeah. You know who his
S1: daddy is? He's a best selling author, co-author, director, editor
S1: of more than 18 books, including Is God Just a
S1: Human Invention and Evidence That Demands a Verdict? Yeah, he
S1: did write that with his dad. He's also an associate
S1: professor of apologetics at Talbot School of Theology. Biola University
S1: blogs regularly, and I've got a link to all of
S1: that on my website, so you can check that out.
S1: And J. Warner Wallace is with us. A cold case
S1: homicide detective, a speaker and an author. Former atheist. Let
S1: the record reflect. Senior fellow at the Colson Center for
S1: Christian Worldview, adjunct professor of apologetics at Biola, and a
S1: faculty member at Summit Ministries. And, by the way, Jay
S1: Warner and Susie Wallace. Jim, as he's known to his
S1: wife and friends, also write popular apologetics books for kids.
S1: And they also created the award winning Case Makers Academy.
S1: What else would you think a cold case worker would do?
S1: These two brilliant minds together have put together this book
S1: called So the Next Generation Will know. I am so excited, gentlemen,
S1: the warmest of welcomes. I'm so glad both of you
S1: are here. And, Sean, I got to start with you.
S1: Really chilling data. We do some science studies, and we
S1: find out that not only do the up and coming
S1: generation not respond to that directive to go and tell,
S1: but they've taken it one step further. So many of
S1: them think that it's Right. Uh oh. Houston, we have
S1: a problem. What's going on here?
S5: Well, I think we're starting to see a different way
S5: of thinking with this generation where one of the leading
S5: priorities or values that we see is this idea of inclusiveness,
S5: that you don't want to tell anybody that they're wrong,
S5: don't want to tell anybody that they don't belong. And
S5: of course, at the heart of the gospel is the
S5: idea that Christianity is uniquely true. And you have to
S5: believe in Jesus. This certainly isn't the case for every
S5: millennial or every Gen X'er, but we're seeing this broader
S5: cultural commitment and push towards ideas that are just running
S5: deeper and deeper against the grains of Christianity. And it's
S5: putting some of this generation in tension, so much so
S5: that the study you're citing that now, a significant percentage,
S5: if not a majority, I believe, in the recent Barna
S5: study of millennials said it's actually wrong to evangelize because
S5: in evangelizing, you're telling somebody they're wrong and mistaken about
S5: their deepest religious beliefs.
S1: So, Jim, let me turn to you. 2016 Oxford Dictionary
S1: word of the year. Post-truth. Well, that's also problematic, Sean.
S1: Just hearken on finding truth. So in a post-truth world,
S1: truth is no longer that missing link that you've been
S1: looking for. Ah, that's the answer I've been looking for.
S1: Now the response is, that's your truth. That's not my truth.
S1: And I don't feel good about it because I don't
S1: like the way your truth makes some of my friends feel.
S1: Going to Sean's idea of inclusiveness. That's new. How much
S1: is that a game changer?
S6: Well, I think it can be. Now, look, it's about
S6: where or how we ground truth. How do we? Everyone
S6: believes in certain principles. I mean, it's impossible to get
S6: away from that. The question is, are these grounded entirely
S6: in your own subjective experience, or are there some claims
S6: that transcend your subjective experience? And they are grounded in
S6: the object itself. We call these objective truth claims. And
S6: so I think for a lot of us, this is
S6: a generation that is enamored with storytelling and narrative. I mean,
S6: we all have been over the years. This isn't unique
S6: to Gen Z, but certainly if you look at how
S6: truth claims are made to this generation, a largely digital
S6: generation that watches videos, narratives and personal stories rule the day.
S6: So I think we can still navigate claims that are
S6: objective claims like Christianity, but I think we're going to
S6: have to be sensitive to the idea that storytelling is
S6: going to reign supreme, right? But even then, there are
S6: some things that transcend our individual stories. Look, I always
S6: worry about it. I think about it a lot because
S6: I always think, well, look, am I going to be
S6: able to impanel a jury, given what I've been used
S6: to doing over the last 30 years? How will we
S6: impanel juries going forward when the claims we're going to
S6: be making to the jurors are that something objectively happened
S6: in this crime that transcends your feelings about the crime?
S6: And I think that we are that's I think, where
S6: the rubber is going to meet the road for me
S6: is are we even raising a generation that could serve
S6: on a jury? I think we are. But I think
S6: it's going to mean we're going to have to maybe
S6: tweak the way we're approaching truth claims and storytelling and
S6: making the case.
S1: All right, let me take a break here, because I
S1: want to dig into what you just said. I think
S1: it's very insightful, but it's further defining what the challenge
S1: and the opportunity is for us, particularly when we talk
S1: about training young Christians. So Doctor Sean McDowell, J. Warner
S1: Wallace is with us. They've co-authored the book called So
S1: the Next Generation Will know Training young Christians in a
S1: challenging world, world challenging being the operative word. We're going
S1: to take a break and come right back. I will
S1: open the phones for questions later, but we'll continue right
S1: after this. So many in our culture today are spiritually
S1: curious but hesitant about religion. That's why I've chosen. Have
S1: you ever wondered, is this month's truth to explore how
S1: everyday experiences might be the signpost pointing to deeper biblical truths?
S1: As for your copy of have you ever wondered when
S1: you give a gift of any amount to in the market,
S1: call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58 or go
S1: to in the market with Janet Parshall. Sean McDowell and J.
S1: Warner Wallace are with us together. They have jointly authored
S1: the book so the Next Generation Will Know training young
S1: Christians in a Challenging World. So you look at the statistics,
S1: the data out there, you're seeing younger people leaving the
S1: church in droves. What what are we not doing right?
S1: What do we need to do? How do we need
S1: to redo our thinking on this? Not change the message,
S1: but change the methodology? That really is the challenge before us. So, Sean,
S1: let me turn to you picking up on what Jim
S1: just said. So the battle that rages inside of us
S1: is this back and forth between the cognitive and the affective.
S1: So if post-truth is the new paradigm, it's wonderful that
S1: we have young people who care desperately about their fellow
S1: man to the point where they really want to love them.
S1: And that seems to be the superseding value in all
S1: of this. But at some point, as somebody said to
S1: me once, a long time ago, you can love somebody
S1: to death. So how do we make sure that we
S1: strike that balance between loving someone and finding out that
S1: love and truth are not mutually exclusive ideas? In fact,
S1: they're ideas that work in perfect harmony together.
S5: I think that's a great question. In fact, when we
S5: look in Scripture, we see that Jesus came in grace
S5: and he came in truth. And I think today we
S5: make two mistakes. Either we say, I'm just going to
S5: speak truth without care of whether or not my claims
S5: that I'm making hurt somebody's relationships or their feelings. And
S5: on the flip side, there's other people who say, you
S5: know what, maybe we need to just compromise truth because
S5: that's the loving thing to do. Both of those are
S5: a huge mistake. And I found that this generation, if
S5: we approach them in the right way, if we're fair minded,
S5: if we're gracious and relational and we've done our homework
S5: and have a certain attitude, they're open to hearing truth.
S5: We just have to present it in a way that
S5: resonates with this generation and make sure that we're not
S5: unnecessarily turning them away from the gospel that has something
S5: to do with our attitude rather than the truth itself.
S1: Yeah. Excellent point. So, Jim, why are young people turned off?
S1: What is it about what they're hearing in church and
S1: biblical truth that's turning them off and making them leave?
S6: Well, I don't know if there's any particular one thing.
S6: I think what we try to do is to list
S6: the attributes that have been pulled now over the last
S6: couple of years related to Gen Z, and we see
S6: certain patterns and rhythms that kind of are revealed by
S6: the way the people pull and try to describe this generation.
S6: And I would say that there's one thing that we,
S6: of course, what we're trying to do in our book
S6: is to give you simple, practical, accessible tools, strategies you
S6: can adopt right away and employ right away. Whether you
S6: are a parent, a youth pastor, or a Christian educator,
S6: because those are the three groups that I think are
S6: going to spend time with the next generation, raising them
S6: in the faith. So I'll give you one approach that
S6: I think does capture this question. What are young people
S6: interested in? What is it? Maybe it's lacking in our teaching.
S6: And this is something that Sean and I talk about
S6: in one of the chapters is that if we just
S6: shifted from giving just what is true, making claims about
S6: what is true, to providing two whys for every what
S6: you will see a change in the way young people
S6: receive what we're saying, and in the kind of relationships
S6: we will develop with young people as we're sharing truth.
S6: So what we would say is in the past, we
S6: might say, we give you a what? What is true?
S6: We're teaching from the Bible, let's say as a youth
S6: pastor or you're having a conversation with your own kids
S6: and you'll make a claim that you know is biblically true,
S6: it's a theologically sound claim. It's a what? Here's what
S6: is true about the nature of Jesus. What is true
S6: about morality based on Christian worldview? Whatever the claim may be,
S6: young people want to know the two whys for every what,
S6: and we often don't even go there. The first why
S6: is okay? Why is that true? Give me some reason
S6: that's beyond oh, it just says so in the Bible,
S6: which of course, you and I would say that's sufficient reason,
S6: but but young people want to know because they're surrounded
S6: by other voices on the internet. Give me a why.
S6: Why should I believe that? Can you make a case
S6: for that? And that's where we want to be able
S6: to take the extra step and give that first why.
S6: But the second, why probably in some ways is more
S6: important than the first. Why? And that is okay, fine.
S6: You make this claim and you can tell me why
S6: that claim should be supported. Fine. Now tell me, why
S6: should I care what what what does it have to
S6: do with me in 2019. What is this ancient claim?
S6: Either it's about behavior, about the nature of God, especially
S6: the claims that seem to be about the nature of God.
S6: Why do I care? I mean, how does that impact me? Well,
S6: I think those two whys are at the root of
S6: what will engage this generation. Because don't think for a
S6: second that the that the voices that are out there
S6: in the digital age are not providing the two whys
S6: for their what they are. They're actually suggesting that they're
S6: what's are the only things that can be supported by
S6: the two whys, and that your theological what says Christians
S6: are just fairy tales that can't be supported. You can't
S6: make it. You can't can't give two whys for every
S6: one over on that side. That's not actually true. And
S6: I think our young people need to know that.
S1: Wow. Wow. So, Sean, let me ask you, we have
S1: mature Christians. Let me put it that way. In terms
S1: of demographics, we have mature Christians. I hearken back to
S1: Paul Little before who don't know what they believe and
S1: why they believe it, who truly subscribed to the idea.
S1: The Bible says it. That settles it. I'm fine. That's wonderful.
S1: And I believe that to the marrow of my bone.
S1: But if I'm going to be all things to all people,
S1: by all means, so that some might be saved in
S1: this world, in this age, that doesn't work anymore, because,
S1: as Jim just alluded to, there's a saturation of information
S1: out there, and people are not going to be able
S1: to know what they believe or to contend for what
S1: they believe, unless they know why they believe it. So
S1: now we've got not just the what we've got two eyes.
S1: That's an extra couple of layers of having to contend
S1: for the faith that people have not been doing up
S1: to this point. Take the paradigm that Jim just talked about.
S1: Drop it in the context of a practical. Give me
S1: an example of how I would use the what and
S1: two whys in talking to a young person.
S5: Well, I was recently speaking at a conference on the weekend,
S5: an entire weekend on sexual purity and pornography at a
S5: church with my dad. About 5 or 600 people came,
S5: and a mom had brought her son to come. He
S5: was about 13 years old, and he came up to
S5: me afterwards and he said, thank you for explaining why
S5: pornography is bad AD, and why God designed sex to
S5: be between one man and one woman for life. I've
S5: always heard this was bad, but nobody explained to me why. Well,
S5: think about that. In previous generations, like you mentioned, it
S5: was kind of fine not to do that because the
S5: culture didn't always live Christian principles, but at least had
S5: the idea that Christian principles were good and you should
S5: broadly follow them. Well, this 1213 year old kid, if
S5: all he was told is don't have sex, it's bad.
S5: Believe the Bible wasn't given a why of why this
S5: is true and why it matters. That's just not a
S5: faith that is going to last. And outsiders want to
S5: know why should I consider Christianity's true? Why does the
S5: Bible teach this?
S1: Yeah. Wow. All right, roll up your sleeves. Looks like
S1: you and I are going to have to do some homework. Right?
S1: But we're supposed to study to show ourselves approved. So
S1: none of this should come as a shock. So the
S1: next generation will know. Sean McDowell and J. Warner Wallace
S1: are teaching us how we change the approach for this
S1: up and coming generation of Christians. What two eyes is
S1: that going through your mind? Questions. Good 87754836758775483675. More after this.
S1: We are visiting with Sean McDowell and J. Warner Wallace together.
S1: They've co-authored the book so the Next Generation Will know
S1: training young Christians in a Challenging world. Moms, dads, Sunday
S1: school teachers, youth pastors, anybody who has any kind of
S1: a regular connection with Millennials and Gen Zs. This is
S1: a book for you. And that raises an interesting question.
S1: I'm going to piggyback off of what Sean said, Jim.
S1: So what? And two eyes. Here's my why. Why bother?
S1: Why should we care about whether or not Gen Z
S1: and millennials have a biblical worldview?
S6: Okay, so that's a great question. And one of the
S6: first things we said when writing this book is, if
S6: you think about it, um, most of us want a
S6: future for our own kids that very, very selfishly, for
S6: a second, you know, when you were raising your kids
S6: that you made sacrifices for your own kids, and that
S6: meant you made sacrifices in terms of the choices you
S6: made at restaurants, the choices you made for your vacations,
S6: the choices you made in terms of what you did
S6: for recreation. These are things you probably did not do,
S6: the things you and your husband wanted to do. You
S6: end up doing the things that you think are right
S6: for kids because you're raising kids. So it's not going
S6: to be a French restaurant tonight. It's probably going to
S6: be something that everyone can, you know, find something on
S6: the menu and it'll be more affordable. I get all that.
S6: We make sacrifices because we think our kids are worth
S6: that kind of sacrifice. Well, the church is always described.
S6: One word describes the church in Scripture as more than
S6: probably any other word. It's this word of family. We
S6: are a family and we have got kids. They may
S6: not be your biological kids, but we have kids that
S6: we are raising in this context of the family called
S6: the church with the big C, and I have to
S6: make sacrifices right now in order to do what's best
S6: for young people. Now you might think, okay, well, you
S6: know what, though? I don't really like that style of
S6: those topics for me. I don't really it does not.
S6: I wouldn't choose those topics or that style of music.
S6: I wouldn't choose. Well, look, you you chose what was
S6: good for your kids when it came to all those
S6: other aspects of your personal lives, your restaurants, your vacations,
S6: the kinds of movies you watched. I mean, for Sean,
S6: I'll tell you, he will watch all the kid Marvel movies,
S6: even if his kids, if he didn't have kids, he'd
S6: still be watching. Okay. But for for me, I'm only
S6: making those choices because of my kids. All right. So
S6: for me, it's about saying, are we willing, as a church,
S6: as a church family, to say that in this season
S6: of raising kids, especially at a time when we are
S6: seeing the large number of young people who are at
S6: least tepid about their their interest in Christianity, or about
S6: their identifying, they're less likely to self-identify as a Christian
S6: than any other generation right now. Are we willing? Are
S6: you ready to submit that? Are you feeling okay about that?
S6: If I told you that 30% of all young people
S6: walk away from the church and never come back, you
S6: would say, oh, we should probably do something about that. Well,
S6: it's a lot worse than 30%. So. So are we
S6: willing to to do something to stem the tide of
S6: that departure? And if so, we have to take on
S6: the responsibility that maybe for a season that we're raising
S6: kids and we'll have to make choices that favor our,
S6: our our commitment to raising our kids.
S1: Wow. That's a challenge. And it's a good word. So, Sean,
S1: let me go back to you again, because if I
S1: stick with the paradigm of the what and the two whys,
S1: that's extremely important. And it's perfectly logical, it's perfectly correct.
S1: And on some areas it's going to be perfectly meaningless.
S1: Because if there's also a word that defines Gen Z
S1: and millennials, it's relationship. They are absolutely relational. People matter.
S1: And that's a blessing. That's a good thing. I want
S1: to figure out how to capitalize on that. But if
S1: you've given the what and the two whys like you
S1: had at that conference with your dad, and this young
S1: person comes up to you and goes, man, I get it.
S1: Now I understand why sex outside of marriage is no good.
S1: I understand now why pornography is not a good choice.
S1: And now it's not just conceptualizing, but now it's your
S1: friend Tom, who's involved in an activity that is absolutely
S1: abhorrent to what the Scripture says. Uh oh. Now the conundrum.
S1: So how do we do the what the two whys
S1: and the friendship altogether?
S5: Well, the way Jim and I, the way Jim and
S5: I frame the book is that there's two big issues
S5: we have to approach with students. And one, like you said,
S5: is relationships, the largest study ever done, Janet, that I'm
S5: aware of, 3500 people 35 years, four generations of Faith
S5: transmission by Vern Bengston at USC. And he published his
S5: book in 2013 with Oxford. They said the one factor
S5: that's most critical in passing on the faith, statistically speaking,
S5: is a warm relationship with the father. Statistically speaking, it
S5: doesn't mean the mom's not important. That's not the point.
S5: But statistically speaking, that was the game changer. Now, grandparents
S5: are important. Mentors are important. Truth is passed through relationship.
S5: That's one of the pieces. Now, the way Jim and
S5: I frame it in the book is that there's timely
S5: truths and there's timeless truths. So there are certain timeless
S5: truths about building relationships with this generation that have been
S5: true with every generation that are really not unique, just
S5: spending time with somebody, being a good listener, etc. but
S5: then there's more timely truths about the way this generation
S5: processes information. And because this is such a digital generation
S5: and a smartphone generation, learning to relate to this generation
S5: through technology or with appropriate boundaries around technology is the
S5: timely way to build relationships with them, and that doesn't
S5: mean everybody has to be an expert on Instagram and
S5: all the different apps. But learning to have boundaries, learning
S5: to communicate this way and to just think and talk
S5: and relate to a generation that sees the world through
S5: smartphones is one of the most important questions we have
S5: to ask is how to do that effectively.
S1: Wow. All right. So Sean, you and Jim, you talked
S1: about storytelling. When we come back. You devote an entire
S1: chapter to this in the book so the next generation
S1: will know. I want to talk about how we connect
S1: through all of the apps and the visual and the
S1: digital and all of the stuff, all the platform that's
S1: out there. And I also want you to answer the
S1: challenge that I know some people are thinking, because we're
S1: talking to folks from Guam to the Cayman Islands. Oh
S1: come on. You're really diluting the gospel, are you not,
S1: when you use some of those platforms. So that's where
S1: I want to go when we get back. Sean McDowell
S1: is with us, J. Warner Wallace is with us. Together
S1: they care. They're willing to sacrifice for the next generation.
S1: Are you? So they wrote a book called Excuse Me
S1: so the Next Generation Will know. Training young Christians in
S1: a challenging world. (877) 548-3675. If you've got a question more
S1: after this. We live in a culture that's infatuated with
S1: the latest fads, but Ephesians 415 calls for us to
S1: be stable, no longer infants, Paul said, tossed about by
S1: the waves and carried around by every wind of teaching
S1: on in the market. We're exposing current trends and finding
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S1: to in the market with Janet Parshall. If you're just
S1: joining us, you didn't miss a thing because you can
S1: go to in the market with Janet Parshall. Left hand side,
S1: two words past programs clicking on. And you can download
S1: the podcast anytime. And you're really going to want to
S1: download this podcast because Doctor Sean McDowell and J. Warner
S1: Wallace are with us, both of them very gifted communicators
S1: and apologists. And when they team up, look out. Sean,
S1: by the way, is a best selling author, co-author or
S1: editor of more than 18 books, including one he wrote
S1: with his dad Evidence That Demands a verdict and J. Warner.
S1: Wallace is a cold case homicide detective, a speaker and
S1: an author. He's also a senior fellow at the Colson
S1: Center for Christian Worldview and adjunct professor of apologetics at Biola.
S1: The book together, they've authored So the Next Generation Will
S1: Know training young Christians in a challenging world. So this
S1: is really about tapping into who they are and understanding
S1: how best to winsomely help them fall in love with truth,
S1: and to know how to make it attractive to them. So, Jim,
S1: you started this. Let me go to you first, which
S1: is this whole idea of storytelling. Nothing new under the sun.
S1: Jesus knew that we like stories. He told us parables.
S1: By the way, that's why Hans Christian Andersen wrote fairy tales.
S1: Who was a Christian, by the way? He knew that
S1: he could transmit truths through a good story. So now
S1: we're in the 21st century, and we have all of
S1: these smarty pants phones and websites and apps and everything
S1: under the sun. How in the world, pragmatically speaking, can
S1: we take that technology captive for the kingdom and use
S1: it as a way of training young Christians?
S6: Well, first of all, we have opportunities. Do you remember
S6: when you were first and you first became a Christian?
S6: For me, anyway, I was I became a Christian. I
S6: was about 35, and I lived my entire life up
S6: to that point, walking by a lot of things that
S6: I just took for granted. I didn't think that God
S6: was in those things. I figured it was either chance physics.
S6: There's some explanation for what was happening in my life,
S6: and I walked by a lot of things and never
S6: attributed any of it to God. And then as I
S6: became a Christian, I started to walk by those things
S6: a little less, You know, I started to see things
S6: and go, wow, that really feels like evidentially. Even this
S6: is the hand of God moving in a certain way.
S6: And because I was sensitive to looking for these things now,
S6: the opportunities to see God's work came for me. Well,
S6: the same thing happens for us as parents, as as educators,
S6: as pastors, where, where if we're if we just if
S6: we don't start thinking about it. Yeah. The next time
S6: you're in the in the car with your kids and
S6: something happens in terms of on the radio or you're
S6: watching something on Netflix, or you're seeing them absorbed in
S6: something on their phones or on a tablet, you're going
S6: to miss an opportunity to actually talk about the Christian worldview.
S6: But if you start to think about these things in
S6: advance and become more sensitive to the opportunities, then suddenly
S6: all of these things will open up songs, especially songs
S6: I remember taking my high school daughter to and she
S6: was going to high school with Shawn. Shawn was her teacher,
S6: and on the way there I would drive her to school.
S6: It would take about 20 minutes to get there, and
S6: I would always let her pick the music because it
S6: gave me an opportunity to talk about lyrically what was
S6: happening in the song, using the digital media to, to
S6: to launch a conversation. And I grant you, as parents,
S6: sometimes we're tired, you know, we're we're picking up our
S6: kids at a point. So so what Sean and I
S6: both want to say to people who are listening to
S6: us is, don't think for a second that we are
S6: these super parents who absolutely never miss an opportunity to
S6: talk about God and all of these different contexts. Of
S6: course we do. We're just like you. We're tired, and
S6: we don't always think about it, or we get lazy
S6: or we just kind of our mind, our thought life
S6: kind of runs away and we just don't get involved
S6: in it. But but if we can start to think
S6: about opportunities as they come, we won't have to try hard.
S6: We won't have to kind of invent opportunities. It turns
S6: out those opportunities have been there all along. We just
S6: haven't been sensitive to them. So what I would say
S6: is we have opportunities. You're already absorbed in digital media
S6: right now as a culture. We already are. Uh, you know,
S6: Game of Thrones just was launched again, right? So, you know,
S6: the whole world is talking about one series. Well, look,
S6: there's opportunities in every movie. Sean, tell, tell, tell Janet
S6: about how you've used most recently, the Marvel movies to
S6: have conversations with your own kids about God.
S5: Oh, sure, I'm happy to. In fact, let me let
S5: me give you a different example. Besides the Marvel One,
S5: my son just turned 15 about two and a half
S5: weeks ago, and last year he wanted to see the
S5: movie Bohemian Rhapsody, which was about the rock, the rock
S5: band Queen. And if you know about the rock band
S5: and the story of the lead singer, there's there's some
S5: ideas embedded in this film that would definitely trouble me
S5: as a Christian. I think certain agendas worked in and
S5: I looked at it as PG 13. I thought, you
S5: know what? Here's an idea. I'll go to my son.
S5: And I said, here's the deal. You want to see this?
S5: I'll take you to see it with a friend who's
S5: parent gives permission. If we just come back and talk
S5: about it for 20 or 30 minutes, that's it. Not
S5: going to lecture you, but I just want to talk
S5: about it, get your perspective and maybe see what Scripture
S5: would say about it. And he agreed. So I took
S5: him and a friend. We went to the movie, came
S5: back afterwards and we just talked about it 20 or
S5: 30 minutes. That's an example of the kind of thing
S5: we're talking about, Janet, of how there's media and there's technology,
S5: and Jim totally nailed it. We're not saying here's a
S5: bunch of new things you have to do, but let's
S5: open our eyes up and look at the opportunities that
S5: are there, maybe differently, and take the opportunities in front
S5: of us.
S1: Yeah. See, I couldn't agree with that more. I say
S1: this all the time. It's like what Bill Belichick tells
S1: the Pats they have to play situational football. In other words,
S1: you're tuned in to everything that's going on around you.
S1: And if we're tuned in, we can absolutely pick some
S1: of these opportunities and really make it a teachable moment.
S1: Now I'm going to play the devil's advocate because, you know,
S1: there's people listening going, nope, nope. I think you have
S1: one foot too much into the world. I would not
S1: let my child see Bohemian Rhapsody. I wouldn't let my
S1: child listen to that song on the radio. I just
S1: want him to open the Word of God and get
S1: into it. Okay, gentlemen, how do you respond?
S5: Well, my.
S6: Response. First. Yeah.
S5: Look, I'd be happy to respond. I'd say that might
S5: have worked a generation ago or two generations ago, before smartphones.
S5: I'm sorry, but it's impossible to keep kids away from
S5: the ideas of the world, the songs, etc.. Now, that
S5: doesn't mean I'm saying these things are okay, but this
S5: is a reality of the world that we live in.
S5: I think we need to have these conversations with our
S5: kids and statistically, for their faith to last. We need
S5: to have the conversations with them about sexuality and about
S5: worldview before the world is having them and not be afraid,
S5: but confidently engaged. That's the posture we we suggest in
S5: the book.
S1: I agree, so, Sean, let me go to you because
S1: Jim referenced this about you and your kids and comic books.
S1: Why in the world? I mean, to me, just as
S1: a cultural observer, if you're going to be a cultural apologist,
S1: it's a striking phenomenon to see that America gobbles up
S1: comic books. Don't get it. But they're there in droves
S1: to the tunes of multiple billions of dollars, with many
S1: more to come down the road apiece. So rest assured,
S1: if it was in print at one point, it'll be
S1: a movie at another point. But it seems to me
S1: if you wanted to plumb the depths of that, there's
S1: a boatload of stuff that we could extrapolate out. What
S1: do you do with power? Why there is good versus evil.
S1: What happens when you don't use your powers for something
S1: good rather than something bad? Um, are these messiah like
S1: figures that can redeem us in the end? What happens
S1: if you get a power Shazam that you can't control?
S1: Then what happens? So, Sean, it seems to me there's
S1: gold in them there hills.
S5: Oh my goodness, you're exactly right. I'll talk about Infinity
S5: War instead of endgame in case someone hasn't seen it yet.
S5: But in Infinity War, at the heart of it is
S5: a question about the gospel. It's about the gospel. To
S5: what value would we sacrifice? A human life. Thanos wants
S5: to sacrifice other people. What does Captain America say? He
S5: says we're not in the business of exchanging lives. It's
S5: really a question of what is love? And we learned
S5: that the loving thing to do is to lay down
S5: your life for another as a sacrifice to save that
S5: person and to save mankind. That sure sounds like a
S5: biblical idea to me. So I like to talk about
S5: my kids. And my point is not that Marvel is
S5: trying to teach the gospel. They're probably not. Almost for sure,
S5: but they can't tell a great story without intersecting with
S5: these great themes that really only find themselves being comfortable
S5: at home in the Christian worldview. So this is an opportunity.
S5: Our kids want to see it. They want to talk
S5: about it. They're already there. So let's use it and
S5: find the good in it. Of course, with appropriate boundaries.
S1: Exactly, exactly. So, Jim, I'm going to go back to you.
S1: And it's really the same question asked another way, which
S1: is this is all perfectly reasonable, perfectly logical, perfectly creative,
S1: perfectly necessary. But boy, this is going to quadruple the
S1: work of the church and the those who are intersecting
S1: with Millennials and Gen Zers on a regular basis. You
S1: can't talk about what you can find in comic books
S1: unless you're already culturally tuned in. You're playing situational football.
S1: Can the church do this?
S6: Yeah. Well, okay. First of all, I'm always hesitant to
S6: say yes. Of course, it's going to mean that we
S6: have to be more intentional as a church if we're
S6: talking about the church with the big C, but can
S6: churches do this? Well, look, I have to come back
S6: to this in the end. We all know that that
S6: we have to do a little bit more, do a
S6: little bit better than we have. Look, we transfer our
S6: passions about different things, okay? So right now, Sean and
S6: I both love basketball. Right now tonight you know the
S6: Warriors are going to play the rockets okay. If you're
S6: in Houston I guarantee you there's probably some rockets fans
S6: in Houston who have passed on their passion for the
S6: rockets to their own children, who would say they're going
S6: to carve time tonight. They're going to sit gleefully. They
S6: would say if they got to go to the game,
S6: they would say, we got to go to the game.
S6: We get to go see the rockets play. Now think
S6: about that. They'll take selfies in the stands with strangers
S6: behind them because they're just so excited to be there. Now,
S6: can you imagine if our kids felt that excited about
S6: the experience they're having with God? Well, I think we're
S6: able to transfer this kind of passion. It's just contagious.
S6: But we have to be honest, have we misplaced our
S6: priorities and have we misplaced our passion? So in the end,
S6: we're far more likely to pass on the passions we
S6: have for music, or the passions we have for our
S6: favorite sporting team than we are to pass on our
S6: passions about God. And I think we have to look inside.
S6: We talk about why our kids sometimes so dispassionate. Well,
S6: I hate to tell you this, but all organizations catch
S6: the passion or dispassion of their leaders and families are
S6: the same way. We have to be passionate believers if
S6: we want to pass on a passionate form of Christianity
S6: to our kids.
S1: Wow. Wow. It's just so important. This conversation is timely
S1: and necessary and quite doable. I want you to learn
S1: more about the book in the market with Janet Parshall.
S1: Do you know how this works? Get to the box.
S1: White letters, red box. It says program details and audio.
S1: Click it on. It'll take you over to the information
S1: page there. On the far right side there's the book.
S1: So the next generation will know. Training young Christians in
S1: a challenging world. Also, I have links for both Sean
S1: McDowell and Jim Wallace. It's all there. Cold case Christianity.com.
S1: Sean McDowell. So you can learn more about the great
S1: work both gentlemen are doing, but I'm glad I still
S1: have more time so we can learn more about reaching
S1: that generation back after this. So the next generation will know.
S1: Preparing Young Christians for a Challenging world. The book has
S1: been co-authored by Doctor Sean McDowell and J. Warner Wallace.
S1: And it really is just filled with all kinds of
S1: ways in which we can really get the next generation
S1: Gen Z millennials interested in having a biblical worldview. The
S1: methodology is going to be a little bit different, I
S1: will grant you. But the message has never, ever changed.
S1: Which takes me to a key question that both of
S1: you address in the book. Jim, let me start with you.
S1: You know, Jeremiah talked about the word of God being
S1: like fire in his bones. How do we get this generation,
S1: Gen Z and millennials to really be passionate about truth,
S1: if truth is situational, if truth is individualistic, if the
S1: Oxford Cambridge Dictionary or the Cambridge Dictionary the Oxford Dictionary
S1: gives us, I'll get my schools right. Oxford Dictionary gives
S1: us the word post-truth. You got to recognize it before
S1: you fall in love with it. So how can we
S1: get young people passionate about it again?
S6: Yeah, we talk about this all the time, especially as
S6: youth pastors. Right? You you can't. I think if there's
S6: a youth pastor out there right now who's maybe even
S6: his parents too, you know, you've had an experience, uh,
S6: within your ministry where you have experienced what we would
S6: call apatheism, right? It's almost a bigger threat to theism
S6: than atheism. Is this sense that and I think first
S6: of all, I do think that the two whys for
S6: every what will help provide a partial antidote, at least
S6: in terms of application, a strategy. Right. Because what the
S6: reason why we're apathetic sometimes is because it's everyone's got
S6: something to say, blah blah blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Interestingly,
S6: in a, in a generation in which everyone's got so
S6: much access to information, young people are less likely to
S6: trust the information they find than probably any other generation.
S6: So we have a decline in trust as the elevation,
S6: as we have an increase in information. And if you're
S6: just going to be another clanging bell out there that's
S6: full of what, without ever providing the whys, I think
S6: it's easy to get lost in a noisy world, but
S6: but we try to write an entire chapter on chapter
S6: five here, which is called Love Ignites, where we're just
S6: trying to talk about some simple strategies that might. Now,
S6: one of them, I'll just tell you up front is
S6: what we talked about in the last segment. Do we
S6: model passion for our young people and are we excited
S6: about this? And do we seem like we're just crazy?
S6: Or do we seem like we've got good reason to
S6: be excited? Because we know how to apply this to
S6: our lives. We know how to defend this. We know
S6: why it's important to our situation right now. We're able
S6: to talk about those things and articulate those things. I
S6: think when young people see us do that, they can
S6: kind of catch what we model. But I will say this,
S6: and this is something that as a youth pastor, I
S6: actually saw in my own ministry that often what stands
S6: between young people, even an old people like me, and
S6: a passion we have for God, a desire to talk
S6: to God, a desire to hear from God is an
S6: obstacle that we have privately in our life that we
S6: don't want to confess. You know, we have some either
S6: personal sin that we have not confessed that we have.
S6: And it's like a wall that we have let be
S6: constructed between us and God. It's almost like we're embarrassed
S6: to be in the presence of God because we have this,
S6: this obstacle, and we have to help young people and
S6: our leaders in these ministries and ourselves as parents, remove
S6: those obstacles that have become the barrier to passion. And
S6: I will say this too. And this is what drove
S6: me crazy as a youth pastor, is that I found
S6: in Southern California what I was competing with. More times
S6: than not. It was not even an obstacle of personal sin,
S6: but it was instead a misplaced priority. In other words,
S6: that that if it was a Sunday morning, it used
S6: to be in Southern California years ago. If there was
S6: a soccer tournament that's going to span two days, well,
S6: they wouldn't start again until Sunday at around two. Forget
S6: about it now. I mean, there's going to be an
S6: 8:00 game on Sunday morning. There's no space carved for
S6: the Christian culture, at least not where I am right now.
S6: And and parents often will make choices about what their
S6: kids are to do that are based on their academic
S6: or athletic goals, rather than their spiritual goals. And if
S6: you're passionate about making sure you carve time and drop
S6: your kids off to volleyball practice and to all the
S6: sports they're involved in. Kids see it. We we lean
S6: in and we care about the things that we spend
S6: time doing. Okay. And if we're not engaged in doing this,
S6: you know, seeking God and doing the things of God
S6: with passion, they're going to get that. Really, if we're
S6: more passionate about placing first in that tournament this weekend
S6: than we are about actually spending time with God, then
S6: before long, our kids are going to be more passionate
S6: about those things too.
S1: Yeah. Wow. You used the word and I want to
S1: pick up on it. And Sean ask you a we
S1: recognize that this is a relational generation. So we have
S1: to understand that it's going to be people oriented first,
S1: last and always. Second of all, Jim used the word court.
S1: So if you're in a relationship with young people, if
S1: you're walking with them, if you're sharing experiences, whether it's
S1: the tune in the car or talking about the latest
S1: Marvel movie. Values are going to be caught much more
S1: than they're going to be taught. Um. That's difficult. Now,
S1: if you're if the book is for youth pastors and
S1: people who have a young person's ministry time just says,
S1: can't do it all the time. So how do we
S1: with intentionality? And that was the word that you didn't
S1: want to use before, but he did want to use.
S1: How do we, with intentionality try to have these relationships?
S1: And if it isn't, I don't want to offload it
S1: to the youth pastor. Talk to me as a mom
S1: and a dad. How do I make time for these moments?
S5: Well, here's the way that I we like to look
S5: at it and we frame it is think about mentoring
S5: not as something new and additional that you do, but
S5: more strategically utilizing the opportunities and things you already do. So,
S5: for example, ask yourself, huh? Do I like to work out? Okay.
S5: If you do, is there a young person you could
S5: exercise with or shoot hoops with or run with? And
S5: that cultivates a conversation even as simple as like running
S5: to the store? Sometimes I gotta run to the store
S5: and pick something up. Almost every time I can. I'll
S5: just grab one of my kids and go, hey, do
S5: you want to go to the store? If you like
S5: to work on your car and fix it up, Is
S5: there a young person in your neighborhood or community, or
S5: your family who you could maybe teach to do this
S5: and partner together? So it's really just we're not adding
S5: more work to the church. We're trying to get the
S5: church to just say there's certain opportunities we have in
S5: front of us. And it's true for parents, teachers and
S5: youth pastors, let's pay more attention to these so we
S5: can more effectively engage this generation and realize every conversation
S5: doesn't have to be this deep spiritual conversation. Most aren't.
S5: In fact, I spent a ton of time with my kids.
S5: Sometimes I feel guilty, like it's too much talking about
S5: superheroes and basketball so we can have those meaningful moments
S5: that stick with them.
S3: Wow.
S1: Jim, last question is yours. 30s, if you would please
S1: and let me flip this around. If we don't do
S1: what you and Shawn are proposing, if we end where
S1: we started, which is numbers that are really staggering, young
S1: people leaving in droves, not stepping into the clarion call
S1: for the Great Commission. What happens? What's the outcome?
S6: Well, I can tell you God is sovereign. God saw
S6: this coming. You know, thousands of years ago. So I
S6: do not believe that we are here and can single
S6: handedly resurrect or save. But I will tell you this.
S6: We will have greater influence on a culture that is
S6: turning its head from Christianity. If we are willing to
S6: be able to articulate why it's true and why it matters. God,
S6: I think, can use us in a way that he
S6: can't if we aren't willing to lean in with young
S6: people so the next generation will know.
S3: Oh!
S1: Exclamation point. Jim, thank you for that. The book is
S1: called So the Next Generation Will Know training young Christians
S1: in a challenging world go to in the market with
S1: Janet Parshall. Click on that red box that says Program
S1: Details and Audio. It will take you over to the
S1: information page. And there's all the information you could use.
S1: Young people care. They are passionate. We need to just
S1: find a way to keep that spark going. For those
S1: of you working with young people, I hope you got
S1: a boatload of ideas. Thanks, friends. We'll see you next
S1: time on In the Market with Janet Parshall.