1 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:08,760 S1: We have waited so long for today. And it's here. 2 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:11,639 S1: And you're about to enjoy another edition of Rosie's Book 3 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:16,040 S1: Club 2.0. That's right, friends, she's back with some literature 4 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:19,280 S1: that will make you think, ponder, and wander through the 5 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:23,280 S1: world of words toward truth. We can believe and live today. 6 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:27,440 S1: Doctor Rosalie de rosé helps us unpack the devilishly clever 7 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:32,279 S1: thoughts and ideas of one Clive Staples Lewis and the 8 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:36,200 S1: book titled The Screwtape Letters. Our question on Facebook is 9 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:40,800 S1: which letter from Screwtape have you found pertinent for today? 10 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:44,480 S1: What quote, what idea, what section of that book speaks 11 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:47,920 S1: to your life or our lives today? We'd love to 12 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:50,280 S1: hear from you at the back fence. Write the number down. 13 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:52,040 S1: Give us a call. Eight seven. It won't be the 14 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:58,320 S1: same without you, friend. Eight. Seven. Seven. Five. Four. Eight. Three. Six. Seven. Five. Plus, 15 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:01,300 S1: we have a special guest and a special response to 16 00:01:01,340 --> 00:01:04,460 S1: our question today. Oh, I'll keep you in suspense while 17 00:01:04,459 --> 00:01:07,220 S1: I thank our team. Ryan McConaughey doing all things technical. 18 00:01:07,500 --> 00:01:10,180 S1: Trish is our producer. Lisa's helping out. Josh will be 19 00:01:10,180 --> 00:01:14,300 S1: answering your calls today. And thank you back fence friends 20 00:01:14,300 --> 00:01:17,380 S1: who have given in October. We are about $200 from 21 00:01:17,380 --> 00:01:20,220 S1: our goal for the whole month. So if you have 22 00:01:20,220 --> 00:01:23,340 S1: not given call or click through today because there are 23 00:01:23,340 --> 00:01:25,899 S1: only three days left in our offer of Nancy DeMoss 24 00:01:25,940 --> 00:01:31,179 S1: Wolgemuth excellent 31 day advent devotional, consider Jesus. If you 25 00:01:31,220 --> 00:01:34,140 S1: are in the choir saying, and I say, this Christmas 26 00:01:34,180 --> 00:01:36,700 S1: is more about tinsel and lights and less about Jesus 27 00:01:36,700 --> 00:01:40,060 S1: every year you've said that do something for your heart. 28 00:01:40,100 --> 00:01:43,180 S1: Read this devotional. I guarantee you you will come back 29 00:01:43,180 --> 00:01:45,459 S1: to it again and again. Or you might want to 30 00:01:45,459 --> 00:01:48,900 S1: give it as a gift to someone you love. Nancy 31 00:01:48,940 --> 00:01:52,100 S1: DeMoss Wolgemuth consider Jesus is our thank you right now. 32 00:01:52,100 --> 00:01:56,460 S1: Give a gift of any size@kris.org. Help us reach our 33 00:01:56,460 --> 00:02:00,670 S1: goal for October. Chris avery.org. Or you can call the 34 00:02:00,670 --> 00:02:10,070 S1: number 86695 Faber and talk with a real live person. (866) 953-2279. 35 00:02:10,070 --> 00:02:12,270 S1: Help us reach that goal today. We can do it 36 00:02:12,270 --> 00:02:16,790 S1: together here at the Radio Backyard fence. Every time this 37 00:02:16,790 --> 00:02:19,070 S1: guest appears on the program, I hear from people far 38 00:02:19,070 --> 00:02:21,630 S1: and wide who say, have Rosie on more often. She 39 00:02:21,669 --> 00:02:25,350 S1: is retired professor of literature at Moody Bible Institute. She 40 00:02:25,350 --> 00:02:28,190 S1: taught there more than 50 years. We have her book 41 00:02:28,230 --> 00:02:30,630 S1: on Seduced and Unshaken The Place of Dignity in a 42 00:02:30,630 --> 00:02:35,149 S1: Woman's Choices. At our website, Chris Fabry live.org. Doctor Rosalie 43 00:02:35,190 --> 00:02:37,470 S1: de Rose, welcome back to the Book club. How are 44 00:02:37,470 --> 00:02:37,870 S1: you doing? 45 00:02:37,910 --> 00:02:40,190 S2: I'm doing well, thank you very much. 46 00:02:40,630 --> 00:02:42,710 S1: We are excited to have you in the house today, 47 00:02:42,710 --> 00:02:46,310 S1: especially talking about this book. But here's the thing. You 48 00:02:46,310 --> 00:02:50,270 S1: suggested our second guest and you said you got to 49 00:02:50,270 --> 00:02:53,549 S1: get Eva Rudnick because she has taught this book. She 50 00:02:53,550 --> 00:02:57,690 S1: teaches courses in literature, Jewish culture, education at Moody, and 51 00:02:57,690 --> 00:03:01,370 S1: she also serves with Chosen People Ministries, and she's a 52 00:03:01,370 --> 00:03:05,330 S1: book lover and she loves this program too. Eva, thank 53 00:03:05,370 --> 00:03:06,370 S1: you for doing this today. 54 00:03:06,410 --> 00:03:08,370 S3: I'm so glad to be here with you guys. It's 55 00:03:08,370 --> 00:03:09,410 S3: so much fun for me. 56 00:03:09,970 --> 00:03:12,810 S1: Okay, so let's start out with just a pullback. Why 57 00:03:12,810 --> 00:03:16,169 S1: is Screwtape important for us to look at Rosie. 58 00:03:17,090 --> 00:03:19,970 S2: I think that he in this book shows himself to 59 00:03:20,010 --> 00:03:25,970 S2: be a tremendous psychologist as well in in the broadest 60 00:03:25,970 --> 00:03:28,890 S2: sense of the word that he understands the human psyche. 61 00:03:29,250 --> 00:03:32,610 S2: And when you apply Christianity to it, he gets underneath 62 00:03:32,610 --> 00:03:36,850 S2: our motivations and he makes us squirm. And I almost 63 00:03:36,850 --> 00:03:39,570 S2: can't think of anything he doesn't address. He addresses our 64 00:03:39,570 --> 00:03:43,490 S2: sense of humor. He addresses our sloth. He addresses gluttony. 65 00:03:43,530 --> 00:03:45,770 S2: He talks about things that nobody else want to talk to, 66 00:03:45,810 --> 00:03:48,210 S2: but he always does it in a fresh way, with 67 00:03:48,210 --> 00:03:51,170 S2: the great stress being obedience. And I think probably one 68 00:03:51,170 --> 00:03:55,050 S2: of the most important quotes that I would offer, it 69 00:03:55,090 --> 00:03:58,020 S2: stuns me every time I read it. Is that our. 70 00:03:58,060 --> 00:04:00,900 S2: He says our cause is. Of course this is the 71 00:04:00,900 --> 00:04:06,180 S2: devil talking doublespeak, you know. In other words, this is. 72 00:04:06,180 --> 00:04:09,700 S2: This is the devil arguing about what. How to capture 73 00:04:09,700 --> 00:04:12,420 S2: people and how to hold them in the devil's power. 74 00:04:12,700 --> 00:04:15,980 S2: Our cause, the devil says, is never more in danger 75 00:04:15,980 --> 00:04:20,740 S2: than when a human no longer desiring but still intending 76 00:04:20,980 --> 00:04:24,620 S2: to do, our enemies will looks around upon a universe 77 00:04:24,620 --> 00:04:28,540 S2: from which every trace of him seems to have vanished, 78 00:04:28,540 --> 00:04:32,940 S2: and asks why he has been forsaken and still obeys. 79 00:04:33,339 --> 00:04:35,500 S2: I mean, that just gets to the heart of it. 80 00:04:35,540 --> 00:04:38,740 S2: We obey in spite of anything that happens, and it's 81 00:04:38,740 --> 00:04:41,500 S2: one of the hardest things to do. We go astray 82 00:04:41,860 --> 00:04:45,020 S2: when obedience becomes too hard, or when it's not that 83 00:04:45,020 --> 00:04:48,020 S2: we don't see evidence, when we see no evidence of 84 00:04:48,020 --> 00:04:50,979 S2: God's action in our life, and we still obey. It's 85 00:04:50,980 --> 00:04:55,880 S2: about obedience, and that involves every single choice under inspection 86 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:56,880 S2: in our lives. 87 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:02,880 S1: And that's what Screwtape does. He. He looks at what 88 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:07,800 S1: faith really is and wonders. And it's like we can't 89 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:11,320 S1: figure out what the enemy capital E, what the enemy 90 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:14,839 S1: is doing. So, Eva, your response to that? Why is 91 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:15,960 S1: Screwtape important? 92 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:20,640 S3: I think that, um, he lets us see through the 93 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:25,520 S3: mouth of this young, young tempter and his older advisor. Uh, 94 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:30,600 S3: how temptation strikes us, because I think sometimes we are, 95 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:33,360 S3: we're mistaken. So we don't even see it coming. And 96 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,599 S3: all of a sudden we're down. And this book gives 97 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:37,960 S3: us a chance to take a look at it from 98 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:42,320 S3: the other side. He he said. In the introduction to Screwtape, 99 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:44,799 S3: Lewis wrote that the idea would be to give all 100 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:48,200 S3: the psychology. As Rosie was just saying, the idea would 101 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:52,279 S3: be to give all the psychology of temptation presented from 102 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:55,810 S3: the other point of view to prepare us. That's what 103 00:05:55,810 --> 00:05:56,290 S3: he does. 104 00:05:56,650 --> 00:06:01,210 S1: So he is is kind of an unreliable narrator, though, 105 00:06:01,890 --> 00:06:04,730 S1: in the sense that there are some things that he 106 00:06:04,770 --> 00:06:07,969 S1: says that you don't want to. And Lewis even talks 107 00:06:07,970 --> 00:06:09,690 S1: about this at the beginning, and I'm not going to 108 00:06:09,690 --> 00:06:11,169 S1: tell you where this is coming from. You know how 109 00:06:11,170 --> 00:06:14,570 S1: I got this manuscript, but don't believe everything that he 110 00:06:14,570 --> 00:06:17,690 S1: says because he's still a demon, right? 111 00:06:17,970 --> 00:06:22,370 S3: Yeah. I mean, he says that the that Satan is 112 00:06:22,370 --> 00:06:25,050 S3: a liar. So you can't believe anything that he says, 113 00:06:25,050 --> 00:06:28,650 S3: even the things that he says about himself in from 114 00:06:28,650 --> 00:06:30,369 S3: from the letters. Yes. Yeah. 115 00:06:30,410 --> 00:06:33,890 S2: He is there to fuddle you. That's that's that's the line. 116 00:06:33,890 --> 00:06:36,490 S2: He is there to. He's there to mess with your head. 117 00:06:36,650 --> 00:06:37,929 S4: I like that. Yeah. 118 00:06:37,970 --> 00:06:41,130 S1: And it's so true. So Eva, where did as far 119 00:06:41,130 --> 00:06:45,410 S1: as the background of this. Where did this manuscript come from? 120 00:06:45,450 --> 00:06:49,690 S3: Well, it's writing about the book and where the idea 121 00:06:49,690 --> 00:06:52,589 S3: came from. Lewis says that it was after a church service, 122 00:06:53,470 --> 00:06:56,469 S3: and he said he wished this could have come from 123 00:06:56,470 --> 00:07:00,550 S3: a more seasonable, um, circumstance, but I was struck by 124 00:07:00,550 --> 00:07:03,510 S3: the idea of a book which I might be both 125 00:07:03,510 --> 00:07:07,470 S3: useful and entertaining. It would be called originally as One 126 00:07:07,470 --> 00:07:10,310 S3: Devil to another, and would consist of letters from an 127 00:07:10,310 --> 00:07:14,030 S3: elderly retired devil to a young devil who had just 128 00:07:14,030 --> 00:07:17,630 S3: started out on his first patient, meaning, you know, young, 129 00:07:17,630 --> 00:07:20,750 S3: young Christian. And so that that's sort of where the 130 00:07:20,750 --> 00:07:23,190 S3: idea came to him about it. And it was he 131 00:07:23,190 --> 00:07:26,630 S3: wrote that he wrote the book about in 1940 41. 132 00:07:27,150 --> 00:07:28,950 S3: And when you think about what was he doing, what 133 00:07:28,950 --> 00:07:31,510 S3: was going on in Lewis's life when he wrote this, 134 00:07:31,630 --> 00:07:35,630 S3: it was the blitz. He was sheltering children in the kilns, 135 00:07:35,630 --> 00:07:39,270 S3: kind of like we see in the Narnia Chronicles. He 136 00:07:39,270 --> 00:07:41,830 S3: was still teaching at Oxford. He was reading with his 137 00:07:41,830 --> 00:07:45,110 S3: friends the inklings at the bird and the baby. He 138 00:07:45,110 --> 00:07:47,270 S3: was too old to serve in the Second World War, 139 00:07:47,310 --> 00:07:49,230 S3: because he had been wounded and served in the First 140 00:07:49,230 --> 00:07:51,920 S3: World War. But he was serving, walking at night in 141 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:55,160 S3: the Home Guard, and he was broadcasting mere Christianity on 142 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:59,160 S3: the BBC. Kind of a kind of a busy time. 143 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:02,000 S4: A busy life. Now, he he also. 144 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:06,520 S1: Dedicated this to Tolkien. And as I recall, Tolkien had 145 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,240 S1: kind of a problem with this. You shouldn't be writing 146 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:11,960 S1: that kind of stuff. Did you did you ever hear 147 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:12,960 S1: anything like that? 148 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:18,480 S3: I did. He. And it just says dedicated to J.R.R. Tolkien. 149 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:22,560 S3: There's no other any words of affirmation. That's just the dedication. 150 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:25,960 S3: And Tolkien wrote back to him. Jack, you have no 151 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:31,080 S3: business writing books like that because you're neither ordained nor 152 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:31,960 S3: a theologian. 153 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:36,520 S2: So which Lewis, to his credit, never claimed to be 154 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:37,480 S2: a theologian. 155 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:37,800 S4: Right. 156 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:41,000 S2: Yes. So, yeah, he he was going to write a sequel. 157 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,760 S2: I read somewhere about from the point of view of 158 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:47,160 S2: an angel giving advice, but he realized he couldn't get 159 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,060 S2: into the angelic mind. but it was very easy to 160 00:08:50,059 --> 00:08:51,780 S2: get into the diabolic mind. 161 00:08:51,820 --> 00:08:55,380 S1: Yes. Okay, so that is our book for today, The 162 00:08:55,380 --> 00:08:57,180 S1: Screwtape Letters. Eva. Go ahead. What were. 163 00:08:57,179 --> 00:08:58,780 S3: You. I was going to say, although when he talked 164 00:08:58,780 --> 00:09:01,900 S3: about writing it in in God in the dock, he 165 00:09:01,900 --> 00:09:05,140 S3: makes in his essay From God in the dock on cross-examination, 166 00:09:05,140 --> 00:09:07,699 S3: he says that of all my books, there was only 167 00:09:07,700 --> 00:09:10,540 S3: one that I did not take pleasure in writing. Mhm. 168 00:09:10,580 --> 00:09:14,579 S3: The The Screwtape Letters. They were dry and gritty going. 169 00:09:14,940 --> 00:09:17,100 S3: At the time, I was thinking of objections to the 170 00:09:17,100 --> 00:09:19,780 S3: Christian life and decided to put them in the form 171 00:09:20,420 --> 00:09:24,020 S3: of making bad good and and good bad. And it 172 00:09:24,020 --> 00:09:27,579 S3: gets to be quite fatiguing. The strain produced a sort 173 00:09:27,580 --> 00:09:30,500 S3: of spiritual cramp in me the work into which I 174 00:09:30,500 --> 00:09:34,220 S3: had to reject myself while I spoke through Screwtape was 175 00:09:34,220 --> 00:09:40,500 S3: all dust, grit, thirst, and itch. Every trace of beauty, freshness, 176 00:09:40,500 --> 00:09:44,699 S3: and genealogy had to be excluded. It almost smothered me 177 00:09:44,700 --> 00:09:45,860 S3: before I was done. 178 00:09:46,300 --> 00:09:49,829 S2: I love that. That's really so interesting. Yeah. 179 00:09:49,830 --> 00:09:53,470 S1: It is. And the, the struggle to do that and 180 00:09:53,470 --> 00:09:56,230 S1: look at what we have because I've gone through this 181 00:09:56,270 --> 00:09:59,750 S1: in the last few weeks and I've highlighted some things. 182 00:09:59,750 --> 00:10:01,950 S1: I have some quotes, but I want to hear from 183 00:10:01,950 --> 00:10:06,510 S1: you at 8775, four, 83675. What is it in The 184 00:10:06,510 --> 00:10:11,110 S1: Screwtape Letters that struck you that sticks out to you? 185 00:10:11,110 --> 00:10:15,550 S1: That's pertinent to your life today, to our lives in 186 00:10:15,550 --> 00:10:34,949 S1: this culture? (877) 548-3675 is our number. (877) 548-3675. The book club 187 00:10:34,950 --> 00:10:37,829 S1: is back with Doctor Rosalee de Rose. We're talking about 188 00:10:37,830 --> 00:10:41,590 S1: The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis. Today. Eva Rudnick has 189 00:10:41,590 --> 00:10:45,150 S1: taught this book at Moody Bible Institute for a long time. 190 00:10:45,150 --> 00:10:47,770 S1: And so she's with us. and so are you. If 191 00:10:47,809 --> 00:10:51,090 S1: you have a response to our question today about a 192 00:10:51,250 --> 00:10:55,770 S1: a quote, an idea that sticks out to you from 193 00:10:55,770 --> 00:11:01,809 S1: Screwtape (877) 548-3675. I'm not going to tell you who this is, 194 00:11:02,010 --> 00:11:06,450 S1: Rosie and Eva, but I asked this question of this 195 00:11:06,450 --> 00:11:10,530 S1: person and I said, what is it about Screwtape that 196 00:11:10,530 --> 00:11:14,010 S1: makes it come alive? That speaks to our heart and 197 00:11:14,010 --> 00:11:17,170 S1: life today? And here's what this person said. 198 00:11:17,490 --> 00:11:19,730 S5: I think for me, one of the most amazing things 199 00:11:19,730 --> 00:11:22,450 S5: about The Screwtape Letters is the way in which Lewis 200 00:11:22,490 --> 00:11:25,610 S5: gets us to look at our own congregations, our own 201 00:11:25,770 --> 00:11:28,970 S5: ordinary churches, and the ordinary people who go to them. 202 00:11:29,330 --> 00:11:33,450 S5: And from this perspective, these are just idiots, these are fools. 203 00:11:33,450 --> 00:11:36,890 S5: But Lewis is saying, no, look more closely. They're special. 204 00:11:36,929 --> 00:11:40,530 S5: They're people like you. They're people who God has chosen. 205 00:11:40,530 --> 00:11:43,890 S5: See them in a new way, not the way the 206 00:11:43,890 --> 00:11:47,660 S5: world sees them. And, you know, that's a really important insight. 207 00:11:48,420 --> 00:11:49,740 S1: Rosie, what do you think of that? 208 00:11:49,780 --> 00:11:52,540 S2: Oh, I think that's great. I don't know what chapter 209 00:11:52,540 --> 00:11:55,220 S2: exactly he took that from, but I, I love the 210 00:11:55,260 --> 00:11:58,660 S2: chapter two just for the congregant that when we go 211 00:11:58,660 --> 00:12:01,179 S2: to church and we're distracted by our neighbors out of 212 00:12:01,220 --> 00:12:03,660 S2: tune voice or her odd clothes, in my case, by 213 00:12:03,660 --> 00:12:06,340 S2: their use of the iPad or the the phone, I 214 00:12:06,380 --> 00:12:09,220 S2: want to kill them, you know? End of story. And 215 00:12:09,580 --> 00:12:14,620 S2: or you're distracted by immodesty or you're completely keeping out 216 00:12:14,620 --> 00:12:17,980 S2: of your head the question, you know, if I, being 217 00:12:17,980 --> 00:12:20,699 S2: what I am, consider that I am in some sense Christian, 218 00:12:20,700 --> 00:12:23,540 S2: why should the different vices of those people in the 219 00:12:23,540 --> 00:12:27,380 S2: next pew prove that their religion is mere heresy and convention? 220 00:12:27,380 --> 00:12:29,420 S2: And that is such a that is such a good 221 00:12:29,420 --> 00:12:33,540 S2: thing for him to admonish pastors on that attitude. Because honestly, 222 00:12:33,540 --> 00:12:37,180 S2: you feel like humility is just missing everywhere in the 223 00:12:37,179 --> 00:12:41,020 S2: posture of leadership toward the ordinary person who God loves. 224 00:12:41,940 --> 00:12:44,040 S1: And Eva, what do you say about that? 225 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:47,160 S3: Yeah. I think that it's a I think that it's 226 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:51,319 S3: a great observation and one that is expanded in in 227 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:54,280 S3: The Screwtape Letters, there's you could do a do a 228 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:57,960 S3: whole study on just the view of of church in 229 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:00,160 S3: the Screwtape Letters. He really holds our feet to the 230 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,400 S3: fire as far as our attitudes are concerned. 231 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:08,920 S1: That was Doctor Alister McGrath from Oxford, and he wrote 232 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:12,040 S1: he wrote the book on Lewis's life. He grew up. 233 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:15,160 S1: He was born in Belfast in 53, but didn't start 234 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:19,160 S1: reading Lewis until he told us yesterday, until the 1970s, 235 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,920 S1: because he was a rabid atheist, just like Lewis was, 236 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:25,520 S1: and his friends were telling him, you got to read, 237 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:28,080 S1: you got to read C.S. Lewis. And so I thought 238 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:30,679 S1: him talking about Screwtape was really important. 239 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:31,160 S3: Great. 240 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,240 S1: There's one other clip I want to play for you, though, 241 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:39,360 S1: and this is from 1966. So the the book was 242 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,610 S1: originally did it come out in the 40s? Uh, did 243 00:13:42,610 --> 00:13:44,570 S1: you say a little earlier? I can't remember when it 244 00:13:44,570 --> 00:13:46,449 S1: was first published. 245 00:13:46,730 --> 00:13:50,290 S3: It was originally. It was originally published in a serial 246 00:13:50,290 --> 00:13:55,210 S3: form in the Guardian magazine or Guardian newspaper in 41. 247 00:13:55,210 --> 00:13:55,690 S1: Okay. 248 00:13:55,730 --> 00:13:57,929 S3: And it was published as a book in 42. 249 00:13:59,130 --> 00:14:03,450 S1: Okay. In 42. So in and then there were subsequent 250 00:14:04,050 --> 00:14:06,929 S1: editions that were put out. I want to take you 251 00:14:06,929 --> 00:14:12,250 S1: back to 1966. And our very own. We've celebrated 100 252 00:14:12,250 --> 00:14:17,130 S1: years of Moody Radio. In 1966, Moody Radio did a 253 00:14:17,130 --> 00:14:21,650 S1: version of The Screwtape Letters with Myron Canaday, and this 254 00:14:21,650 --> 00:14:23,650 S1: is the beginning of chapter two. 255 00:14:23,810 --> 00:14:29,570 S6: Oh my dear Wormwood, I note with grave displeasure that 256 00:14:29,570 --> 00:14:34,210 S6: your patient has become a Christian. Do not indulge the 257 00:14:34,210 --> 00:14:38,530 S6: hope that you will escape the usual penalties. Indeed, in 258 00:14:38,530 --> 00:14:41,270 S6: your better moments, I trust you would hardly even wish 259 00:14:41,270 --> 00:14:45,030 S6: to do so. In the meantime, we must make the 260 00:14:45,030 --> 00:14:48,870 S6: best of the situation. There is no need to despair. 261 00:14:49,670 --> 00:14:53,790 S6: Hundreds of these adult converts have been reclaimed after a 262 00:14:53,790 --> 00:14:57,990 S6: brief sojourn in the enemy's camp, and are now with us. 263 00:14:59,150 --> 00:15:03,590 S6: All the habits of the patient, both mental and bodily, 264 00:15:04,390 --> 00:15:06,109 S6: are still in our favour. 265 00:15:07,030 --> 00:15:07,590 S3: Wow. 266 00:15:07,750 --> 00:15:09,710 S1: So there's hope. There's still hope. 267 00:15:09,750 --> 00:15:11,550 S3: Don't give up. Great voice. Wow. 268 00:15:11,750 --> 00:15:12,110 S1: Great. 269 00:15:12,150 --> 00:15:14,870 S2: He was in radio when I came and worked in radio. 270 00:15:15,470 --> 00:15:16,470 S2: He was still there. 271 00:15:16,750 --> 00:15:19,470 S1: He could do so many different voices. He would be. 272 00:15:19,790 --> 00:15:22,230 S1: He would be the voice of one character and then 273 00:15:22,270 --> 00:15:25,430 S1: be talking to himself as another character. So. So I 274 00:15:25,430 --> 00:15:27,270 S1: wanted to play, you know, just a little bit of 275 00:15:27,310 --> 00:15:31,070 S1: that of Myron. But that lets us into a little 276 00:15:31,110 --> 00:15:35,150 S1: bit of the theology. And maybe while Tolkien, Tolkien was saying, hey, 277 00:15:35,150 --> 00:15:40,080 S1: you shouldn't do theology. CS because they're in that, you know, 278 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:45,320 S1: your patient, we've we've taken away those converts and reclaimed 279 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:48,800 S1: them afterward. So you got to do some mental gymnastics 280 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:51,760 S1: about the perseverance of the saints when you're reading that, 281 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,720 S1: which is why I go back, Eva, and say, you 282 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:59,440 S1: can't trust what Screwtape is saying to Wormwood every time. 283 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:03,040 S3: Right, exactly. Um, I think it's interesting that one of 284 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:07,160 S3: the things that Lewis warns about, um, besides he makes 285 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,320 S3: it really clear that he is a liar, but he 286 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,800 S3: also he chides us and gives us an alert about 287 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:18,200 S3: what our attitude should be toward, uh, Satan. And, and 288 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:22,040 S3: that's perfectly great timing, Chris, to be doing this right 289 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:27,560 S3: before Halloween when there is so much emphasis on the supernatural. 290 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:30,920 S3: We've moved a lot more from candy to the occult, 291 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:34,360 S3: I think, over the last many years. But Lewis says 292 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:38,500 S3: that the disbelief in the existence of devils and demons 293 00:16:38,500 --> 00:16:42,500 S3: is one extreme we should avoid. Or believing in the 294 00:16:42,500 --> 00:16:46,340 S3: devil and the demons that they have in existence is. Is. 295 00:16:46,620 --> 00:16:50,180 S3: And having an unhealthy interest in them should also be avoided. 296 00:16:50,900 --> 00:16:54,460 S3: He says. In the preface to Screwtape, Lewis says the 297 00:16:54,460 --> 00:16:59,220 S3: devils themselves are equally pleased by both errors and hail. 298 00:16:59,260 --> 00:17:03,020 S3: A materialist or a magician with the same delight? 299 00:17:03,060 --> 00:17:03,739 S1: Yes. 300 00:17:03,780 --> 00:17:04,180 S2: Yeah. 301 00:17:04,820 --> 00:17:05,500 S1: What do you think of that? 302 00:17:05,780 --> 00:17:08,660 S2: Oh yeah, I had that too in in my comments that, 303 00:17:08,660 --> 00:17:11,220 S2: and I say it often, as I'm sure anybody that's 304 00:17:11,220 --> 00:17:14,260 S2: read that does that is to take him too seriously 305 00:17:14,260 --> 00:17:18,740 S2: or not take him seriously enough and or although he 306 00:17:18,740 --> 00:17:21,940 S2: says it much better than that, but that applies to 307 00:17:22,180 --> 00:17:24,980 S2: people who just live their life in almost a terror, 308 00:17:25,020 --> 00:17:28,500 S2: even of even of Halloween. And this will be controversial 309 00:17:28,500 --> 00:17:31,820 S2: for some, but I, I see no problem with the 310 00:17:31,820 --> 00:17:36,260 S2: innocence of children and in costumes going about getting candy, 311 00:17:36,260 --> 00:17:41,070 S2: and sometimes I think we don't indulge the imagination of 312 00:17:41,070 --> 00:17:43,070 S2: the season. When I was growing up, there was no 313 00:17:43,070 --> 00:17:45,550 S2: problem with Halloween. Nobody had a problem with it. There 314 00:17:45,550 --> 00:17:48,109 S2: was none at the Institute, you know, and then it 315 00:17:48,150 --> 00:17:51,189 S2: went into an era of of, you know, Bible characters 316 00:17:51,190 --> 00:17:54,709 S2: in moldy church basements, which is enough to take I mean, 317 00:17:54,750 --> 00:17:58,709 S2: enough to scare anybody away from faith. Yeah. So it's, 318 00:17:58,710 --> 00:18:04,310 S2: it's that using it properly with God over it and, 319 00:18:04,310 --> 00:18:07,710 S2: and not getting so alarmist that really the devil has 320 00:18:07,710 --> 00:18:09,870 S2: a foot foot in your, in your property. 321 00:18:10,070 --> 00:18:15,710 S1: Yeah. Well, isn't it being, uh, guided, guarded by fear. 322 00:18:15,750 --> 00:18:16,190 S2: Yeah. 323 00:18:16,430 --> 00:18:20,910 S1: Rather than faith. And, and I, I'm very, I used 324 00:18:20,910 --> 00:18:22,389 S1: to be when I would do the you had the 325 00:18:22,390 --> 00:18:25,710 S1: old open line program. Now Michael, even Michael does open line. 326 00:18:25,710 --> 00:18:27,830 S1: But I did the old open line program, and every 327 00:18:27,869 --> 00:18:30,830 S1: October it'd come around. I know we'd have the lines 328 00:18:30,830 --> 00:18:33,190 S1: lit up if I had somebody on who said, don't 329 00:18:33,190 --> 00:18:36,210 S1: do this, and somebody else who said, go ahead. I 330 00:18:36,250 --> 00:18:39,850 S1: knew we'd have just all kinds of conflict. And the 331 00:18:39,850 --> 00:18:44,530 S1: older I've gotten, the more I've seen stirring people up. Yeah. 332 00:18:44,570 --> 00:18:48,250 S1: Is is not necessarily a really good thing. And if 333 00:18:48,290 --> 00:18:51,410 S1: you have really strong, you know, people in my own 334 00:18:51,410 --> 00:18:55,930 S1: life who have background in a cult and it they're 335 00:18:55,930 --> 00:19:00,410 S1: horrified by this and I understand that. Um, but other people, 336 00:19:00,410 --> 00:19:03,890 S1: as you say, Rosie, who don't see a problem with, 337 00:19:03,930 --> 00:19:08,050 S1: you know, handing out candy to people and, and you 338 00:19:08,090 --> 00:19:12,730 S1: can get into a lot of really vociferous arguments with that, right? 339 00:19:12,770 --> 00:19:15,489 S2: Which leads to that other chapter where I think it's 340 00:19:15,490 --> 00:19:18,010 S2: in the chapter on war, where when you adopt a 341 00:19:18,010 --> 00:19:21,930 S2: position that is so unbending and rigid, it takes on 342 00:19:21,930 --> 00:19:25,810 S2: a life of its own and it excludes it. And 343 00:19:25,810 --> 00:19:27,970 S2: one of the things he talks about the devil, the 344 00:19:27,970 --> 00:19:33,890 S2: devil always, uh, takes he gives nothing back. You know, 345 00:19:33,980 --> 00:19:37,100 S2: there's no enlargement of the spirit. And so when you 346 00:19:37,100 --> 00:19:41,540 S2: get stuck on one thing, it becomes it makes you small, 347 00:19:41,660 --> 00:19:43,939 S2: it makes the world small. And that is not to 348 00:19:43,940 --> 00:19:48,419 S2: say you're compromising. It just means that you, you, Jesus 349 00:19:48,460 --> 00:19:52,260 S2: is the center, not what you feel about Halloween or don't. 350 00:19:52,540 --> 00:19:53,620 S7: Right? Mhm. 351 00:19:53,940 --> 00:19:57,179 S1: Um, that was another thing that popped up to me 352 00:19:57,180 --> 00:19:58,899 S1: as I went through it this time. It's been a 353 00:19:58,900 --> 00:20:01,820 S1: few years since I've read it, and that is the 354 00:20:01,859 --> 00:20:10,859 S1: emphasis that Screwtape puts on devouring, devouring the, uh, the person, the, uh, 355 00:20:11,260 --> 00:20:14,659 S1: the individual, the human, you know, the animal as he 356 00:20:14,660 --> 00:20:20,340 S1: calls them. And also, uh, his, the way he says 357 00:20:20,340 --> 00:20:24,619 S1: this toward Wormwood that he's going to, you're going to 358 00:20:24,619 --> 00:20:28,100 S1: pay the penalty here. And we are I, I, uh, 359 00:20:28,540 --> 00:20:31,060 S1: I want a morsel of you that he's going to 360 00:20:31,100 --> 00:20:34,920 S1: consume him, which gets back to that whole thing that 361 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:39,240 S1: you know, that the devil only takes. He never gives, uh, evil. 362 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:40,639 S1: What do you what do you take from that? 363 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:43,280 S3: I it it makes me think of what, what the 364 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:45,480 S3: Lord Jesus said that he came to give us life 365 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:48,840 S3: and give it to us abundantly. And Satan only comes 366 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:52,760 S3: to to hate, kill and destroy. You know, he makes 367 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:54,640 S3: an offer that is this is going to be something good. 368 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:58,280 S3: I'm offering you this. And in the end, all, all 369 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:02,960 S3: it is, is completely bad and completely disastrous. And he, 370 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:07,400 S3: he talks about, um, in one of his letters where he, uh, 371 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:11,760 S3: Screwtape talks about that they can't make anything. They can 372 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:14,760 S3: only corrupt what's already been made. Yes. And that's what 373 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:15,360 S3: he does. 374 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:17,120 S1: And he's frustrated by that, too. 375 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:17,560 S7: Yeah. 376 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:20,239 S1: That he can't do anything original. It's only he can 377 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:24,200 S1: only twist what the good thing that's been made. Right? 378 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:25,640 S3: Right. Exactly. 379 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:29,040 S2: And he says this about so many things. I mean, 380 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:32,250 S2: it's of course he's very, very good on sex. But 381 00:21:32,650 --> 00:21:35,209 S2: when it comes to humor, I think that the chapter 382 00:21:35,210 --> 00:21:38,250 S2: on humor was so wonderful because I think we think 383 00:21:38,570 --> 00:21:44,130 S2: in terms of humor as very, very just two categories, 384 00:21:44,650 --> 00:21:48,450 S2: good or bad or, and bad is dirty jokes and good. 385 00:21:48,490 --> 00:21:53,209 S2: I don't know what good is, but humor that the 386 00:21:53,210 --> 00:21:55,810 S2: problem with humor used poorly, which I think it is 387 00:21:55,810 --> 00:21:59,210 S2: a lot today, is it destroys shame and it's not 388 00:21:59,210 --> 00:22:05,290 S2: related to joy or a playful instinct. It's problem is flippancy. 389 00:22:05,570 --> 00:22:08,330 S2: And one of the things I used to think about, 390 00:22:08,369 --> 00:22:10,609 S2: sometimes you'll hear somebody tell a joke, and it's not 391 00:22:10,609 --> 00:22:16,409 S2: completely up on exactly what you would say in a 392 00:22:16,410 --> 00:22:21,810 S2: church service, but it's terribly funny. And, and in the funniness, 393 00:22:21,850 --> 00:22:26,610 S2: it has killed the any any sense of wrong. I 394 00:22:26,650 --> 00:22:29,209 S2: hope everybody understands what I'm saying. There are things that 395 00:22:29,210 --> 00:22:32,109 S2: are just funny. And then there are things that are 396 00:22:32,230 --> 00:22:34,790 S2: that we laugh at that are not funny at all. 397 00:22:35,270 --> 00:22:39,149 S2: It's just flippant. Every fun is related to joy. It's 398 00:22:39,150 --> 00:22:42,790 S2: a playful instant. It's what we see in children. Flippancy 399 00:22:42,790 --> 00:22:46,869 S2: is the problem, and God flows over. And so even 400 00:22:47,190 --> 00:22:50,030 S2: our categories of humor we have to think about and 401 00:22:50,030 --> 00:22:52,750 S2: we have to think about what we laugh at. And 402 00:22:52,750 --> 00:22:55,830 S2: most of what we laugh at today is problematic. 403 00:22:55,990 --> 00:22:57,469 S7: Isn't this what Screwtape. 404 00:22:57,510 --> 00:23:00,469 S1: Talks about with the girl that he's, you know, his 405 00:23:00,470 --> 00:23:04,630 S1: girlfriend who's a Christian? And he one of the things 406 00:23:04,630 --> 00:23:07,070 S1: he mentions about her that's a real problem is that 407 00:23:07,070 --> 00:23:09,510 S1: she has a good sense of humor and she knows 408 00:23:09,510 --> 00:23:12,709 S1: satire and she can be, uh, you know, kind of 409 00:23:12,750 --> 00:23:16,750 S1: kind of sardonic, sarcastic or whatever that she this is 410 00:23:16,750 --> 00:23:20,270 S1: not a good thing because for him to see a 411 00:23:20,270 --> 00:23:24,270 S1: well-rounded person like this, your patient is, you know, you 412 00:23:24,310 --> 00:23:26,909 S1: got to keep her away, keep him away from people 413 00:23:26,910 --> 00:23:29,080 S1: like this. Do you agree with that, Eva? 414 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,760 S3: Yeah. You know, he says that, uh. And in fact, 415 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,240 S3: one of his goals would be to get a person 416 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:37,680 S3: trapped into a kind of a marriage that would be 417 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:41,080 S3: disastrous to them emotionally because of some of these very 418 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:42,440 S3: elements that you're talking about. 419 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:44,719 S2: I used to say to my students that, you know, 420 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:48,920 S2: check if when you're thinking about marrying somebody, you know, 421 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,199 S2: obviously check out their bathroom, the content of their Christianity. 422 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:54,879 S2: And then number two, their sense of humor. Because if 423 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:56,359 S2: they don't have one, you're going to have a really 424 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:57,040 S2: hard life. 425 00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:59,840 S7: Yes. Yeah. Right. Exactly. Right. Okay. 426 00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:07,760 S1: So I'm, we're going to your calls (877) 548-3675. Joanne said this, uh, 427 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,720 S1: in an email. I found the entire book very interesting 428 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,800 S1: in that it captured how the daily creep of small 429 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:17,840 S1: things can damage our walk with the Lord. The paragraphs 430 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:22,040 S1: in chapter 12 are letter 12, where the dreary flickering 431 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,080 S1: of the mind is mentioned is such a call to 432 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:29,340 S1: vigilance in our relationship. Thanks for this great recommendation, Rosie. 433 00:24:29,380 --> 00:24:30,220 S1: What do you say about that? 434 00:24:30,260 --> 00:24:32,980 S2: Oh, I just love that. I. I often say, if 435 00:24:32,980 --> 00:24:36,500 S2: we do not live with delight, we. And if our 436 00:24:36,500 --> 00:24:39,860 S2: Christianity does not help us with delight, we are of 437 00:24:39,859 --> 00:24:43,100 S2: all creatures most miserable. And when our lives get very, 438 00:24:43,100 --> 00:24:45,740 S2: very small and all we can do is think about 439 00:24:46,460 --> 00:24:49,060 S2: the past and how the past was. And he is 440 00:24:49,060 --> 00:24:53,180 S2: very careful about permanent things, the balance of old and 441 00:24:53,180 --> 00:24:56,420 S2: new together. And we're not very good sometimes at permanent things, 442 00:24:56,420 --> 00:25:01,820 S2: but people that just get stuck in small, small lives 443 00:25:01,820 --> 00:25:04,379 S2: where they don't have any sense of delight. I was 444 00:25:04,380 --> 00:25:06,300 S2: just talking to a student the other day who was 445 00:25:06,300 --> 00:25:09,540 S2: struggling so hard with all he could think of was 446 00:25:09,540 --> 00:25:12,500 S2: that he disappointed God all the time. And and it 447 00:25:12,500 --> 00:25:15,500 S2: was because he hadn't had his devotions one day or 448 00:25:15,500 --> 00:25:18,100 S2: it hadn't been long enough. Or, you know, Jesus and others. 449 00:25:18,100 --> 00:25:19,780 S2: And you. What a wonderful way to spell joy and 450 00:25:19,780 --> 00:25:23,500 S2: all that stuff. We hear it, it. And I said, 451 00:25:23,500 --> 00:25:27,760 S2: you know, I think I think probably if you don't 452 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,720 S2: have if you didn't have devotions today, but you took 453 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,840 S2: great delight in what you saw coming on, God would 454 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:35,640 S2: be very pleased with you. We have to think of 455 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:36,520 S2: God differently. 456 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:37,240 S7: Yes. 457 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,680 S1: Oh, that's really, really good. And we're going to open 458 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:46,040 S1: the lines for your calls. (877) 548-3675. Rosie's Book Club with 459 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,399 S1: doctor Eva Redlich. I gave you a doctorate. Eva C.S. 460 00:25:49,400 --> 00:26:04,440 S1: Lewis Screwtape Letters today at the backyard fence. Friends, don't 461 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,520 S1: you dare tune away because Rosie's Book Club 2.0, The 462 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,600 S1: Screwtape Letters is what we're talking about today. But coming 463 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:12,199 S1: up in just a few minutes, we are going to 464 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:17,280 S1: announce what our next book club choice is, and you're 465 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:20,560 S1: going to hear it right here, right here with Doctor 466 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:24,639 S1: Rosalie de Rosé and Eva Rudnick who is joining us 467 00:26:25,090 --> 00:26:30,010 S1: a Screwtape Letters aficionado. And if you have not read 468 00:26:30,010 --> 00:26:33,290 S1: The Screwtape Letters, our hope is just us. Talking about 469 00:26:33,290 --> 00:26:36,410 S1: it will whet your appetite to do that. But if 470 00:26:36,410 --> 00:26:40,050 S1: you have read it, here's Mark on the line who 471 00:26:40,050 --> 00:26:42,890 S1: has and wants to weigh in. Hi, Mark. Go right ahead. 472 00:26:44,210 --> 00:26:48,170 S8: Yeah I am. I started reading Lewis when I was 15. 473 00:26:48,210 --> 00:26:52,730 S8: I'm now 68, and one of the things that's not 474 00:26:52,730 --> 00:26:55,650 S8: mentioned about The Screwtape Letters, that is right there in 475 00:26:55,650 --> 00:26:58,650 S8: his two quotations is one of the purposes for which 476 00:26:58,650 --> 00:27:01,690 S8: he wrote it. Now there's short quotations, so I'll give 477 00:27:01,690 --> 00:27:03,530 S8: them to you and then I'll tell you about the 478 00:27:03,530 --> 00:27:08,170 S8: great sacrifice he made in writing this book. Uh, Martin 479 00:27:08,170 --> 00:27:11,929 S8: Luther said the best way to drive out the devil, 480 00:27:11,930 --> 00:27:14,450 S8: if he will not yield to text of Scripture, is 481 00:27:14,450 --> 00:27:18,970 S8: to jeer and flout him, for he cannot bear scorn. 482 00:27:19,170 --> 00:27:21,730 S8: And then the other quotation is from Sir Thomas Moore, 483 00:27:21,730 --> 00:27:27,230 S8: and that one says the devil. The proud spirit cannot 484 00:27:27,230 --> 00:27:29,869 S8: endure to be mocked. And one of. One of my 485 00:27:29,869 --> 00:27:32,950 S8: friends was saying that whenever she's read The Screwtape Letters, 486 00:27:32,950 --> 00:27:36,149 S8: she finds herself laughing every page. And that's part of 487 00:27:36,150 --> 00:27:39,270 S8: the reason he wrote it was to mock out the devil. 488 00:27:40,030 --> 00:27:41,510 S7: Bingo. Bingo. 489 00:27:41,550 --> 00:27:44,790 S8: And then. And then the other thing is the sacrifice 490 00:27:44,790 --> 00:27:49,670 S8: he made. Now, Eva, you mentioned the dirt. Grit. The 491 00:27:50,510 --> 00:27:57,630 S8: first grit, dust and itch. Well, um, he, uh. Well, 492 00:27:57,750 --> 00:28:03,190 S8: he married Joyce Lewis. And then Joy came down with 493 00:28:03,190 --> 00:28:06,270 S8: a recurrence of her cancer, and it came down. It 494 00:28:06,270 --> 00:28:10,510 S8: came back with a vengeance. Now, I had a chance 495 00:28:10,510 --> 00:28:18,389 S8: to spend some time privately with Lewis's stepson, Douglas Gresham. And, uh, he, uh, 496 00:28:18,670 --> 00:28:22,800 S8: struck me as a very rational man, are not prone 497 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,840 S8: to superstition. So I believed him when he said the 498 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,920 S8: following in his talk in the Billy Graham Center for 499 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:35,440 S8: the campus of Wheaton. He said that he believed that the. 500 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:40,840 S8: The return of Joy's cancer was Satan's revenge on Lewis 501 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,960 S8: for writing The Screwtape Letters. Wow, that is heavy duty stuff. 502 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:46,520 S7: It is. 503 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,240 S8: Now we can't. We can't prove that. But it's an 504 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:54,240 S8: interesting thought, because we do know that it's Satan's purpose 505 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:58,880 S8: to destroy, kill, hate. And that's why Lewis chose the 506 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,920 S8: metaphor of spiritual cannibalism. 507 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:03,240 S7: Okay. 508 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,160 S1: So that's what I was getting, that this consumption we're 509 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:11,760 S1: going to consume. Uh, that was great. I have observations there, Rosie. 510 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:12,680 S1: What do you say about that? 511 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,160 S2: Yeah. I mean, of course, we can never know that 512 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,560 S2: kind of thing because both because the power of God 513 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:20,280 S2: is greater than the power of the devil. But the 514 00:29:20,380 --> 00:29:25,420 S2: devil certainly comes in with tremendous things to discourage us. 515 00:29:25,420 --> 00:29:29,060 S2: And his her cancer was a very, very serious kind 516 00:29:29,060 --> 00:29:31,660 S2: of cancer. But I have a feeling that the way 517 00:29:31,660 --> 00:29:35,500 S2: that Joy and Lewis got back at that was by 518 00:29:35,900 --> 00:29:39,380 S2: the tremendous delight of their marriage, which he makes clear 519 00:29:39,580 --> 00:29:43,100 S2: in a grief observed. So even though the cancer came 520 00:29:43,100 --> 00:29:46,740 S2: back with a vengeance, and as it probably it was 521 00:29:46,740 --> 00:29:50,820 S2: in remission for a while. What they enjoyed together was, 522 00:29:50,820 --> 00:29:54,220 S2: first of all, the renewal of, of, of Lewis's spirit, 523 00:29:54,220 --> 00:29:56,100 S2: which had been so wounded by the death of his 524 00:29:56,100 --> 00:30:00,220 S2: mother and by other things in his life, and that, 525 00:30:00,940 --> 00:30:04,340 S2: you know, they had the God had the final word. 526 00:30:04,380 --> 00:30:06,740 S7: Yeah. He is sovereign. That's right. 527 00:30:07,020 --> 00:30:08,540 S1: Eva, what do you say about all that? 528 00:30:08,580 --> 00:30:12,180 S3: Well, I, I disagree with Rosie 100%. Yeah, 100%. 529 00:30:12,180 --> 00:30:16,220 S1: You wanted to talk about chapter 12. Eva, tell me why. 530 00:30:16,500 --> 00:30:20,510 S3: Well, because he sometimes we think that the small things 531 00:30:20,510 --> 00:30:23,590 S3: that we do don't make very much difference. A little 532 00:30:23,630 --> 00:30:26,190 S3: bit like the person that was feeling like they would 533 00:30:26,190 --> 00:30:28,510 S3: let God down because they didn't have devotions that day 534 00:30:28,510 --> 00:30:33,510 S3: or whatever, were plagued by things that we look at. And, uh, in, 535 00:30:33,510 --> 00:30:38,830 S3: in letter 12, he says that, that, but do remember 536 00:30:38,830 --> 00:30:41,430 S3: that the only thing that matters is the extent to 537 00:30:41,470 --> 00:30:44,790 S3: which you separate the man from the enemy, meaning the 538 00:30:44,790 --> 00:30:47,750 S3: believer from the Lord God. It does not matter how 539 00:30:47,750 --> 00:30:51,030 S3: small the sins are, provided that the cumulative effect is 540 00:30:51,030 --> 00:30:54,470 S3: to edge the man away from the light and out 541 00:30:54,470 --> 00:30:57,190 S3: into the. Nothing indeed. 542 00:30:57,270 --> 00:30:57,750 S2: So good. 543 00:30:57,910 --> 00:31:00,950 S3: The safest road to hell is the gradual one, the 544 00:31:00,950 --> 00:31:08,870 S3: gentle slope, soft underfoot without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts, 545 00:31:09,190 --> 00:31:13,070 S3: and that Satan wants to have us not pay much 546 00:31:13,070 --> 00:31:15,270 S3: attention to the small things. And the small things are 547 00:31:15,270 --> 00:31:18,770 S3: so important. One of the things I really appreciate about Lewis, 548 00:31:18,770 --> 00:31:21,570 S3: as he's consistent in the things that he writes across 549 00:31:21,570 --> 00:31:25,370 S3: the many books that he's written. I agree. And this section, 550 00:31:25,370 --> 00:31:28,290 S3: I bet for you too, Rosie, makes you think of 551 00:31:28,290 --> 00:31:31,050 S3: what he said in Mere Christianity. He said, every time 552 00:31:31,050 --> 00:31:33,970 S3: you make a choice, you are turning the central part 553 00:31:33,970 --> 00:31:37,330 S3: of you, the part that chooses into something a little 554 00:31:37,330 --> 00:31:40,530 S3: different than what it was before taking your life as 555 00:31:40,530 --> 00:31:44,930 S3: a whole. With all your innumerable choices, you are slowly 556 00:31:44,930 --> 00:31:49,250 S3: turning the central thing either into a heavenly creature or 557 00:31:49,290 --> 00:31:50,450 S3: into a hellish one. 558 00:31:50,730 --> 00:31:51,050 S7: Oh. 559 00:31:51,610 --> 00:31:56,370 S2: That is so wonderful. And if that becomes the mantra 560 00:31:56,370 --> 00:32:00,890 S2: of your life, the little, the little failures as you 561 00:32:00,930 --> 00:32:03,050 S2: come back from them and make the next choice the 562 00:32:03,050 --> 00:32:08,370 S2: next time. Just become you feel Christ walking alongside of you. 563 00:32:08,530 --> 00:32:10,890 S2: I mean, it's an experience I've had very profoundly in 564 00:32:10,890 --> 00:32:14,010 S2: the last year or two of, of, of seeing my 565 00:32:14,010 --> 00:32:17,740 S2: failures in new ways because of new Circumstances, but never 566 00:32:17,740 --> 00:32:21,980 S2: letting it beat me and saying yes, I failed and 567 00:32:21,980 --> 00:32:25,140 S2: I never feel Christ glowering at me. I feel him 568 00:32:25,140 --> 00:32:28,700 S2: saying that. That's right. Just keep going on, Rosie. 569 00:32:28,740 --> 00:32:30,459 S3: I love you. Keep going, I love you. 570 00:32:30,580 --> 00:32:33,780 S2: Keep going and and not to do it is what 571 00:32:33,780 --> 00:32:38,460 S2: he talks about as sloth and sloth. Is this this 572 00:32:38,460 --> 00:32:40,620 S2: thing that nobody talks about? I do a whole unit 573 00:32:40,620 --> 00:32:43,940 S2: on acedia when I used to teach literature, and I 574 00:32:43,940 --> 00:32:46,220 S2: think it caught the students attention more than anything else 575 00:32:46,220 --> 00:32:50,340 S2: because it's, it's, it's, it's, it's settling. It's just settling. 576 00:32:50,340 --> 00:32:54,100 S2: It's not wanting the good it's in. And I tell them, 577 00:32:54,100 --> 00:32:56,980 S2: if you can build your will by taking the stairs 578 00:32:56,980 --> 00:33:00,459 S2: instead of the elevator, by eating a little less, by 579 00:33:00,500 --> 00:33:05,060 S2: making your bed every morning, it takes 1.5 minutes. If 580 00:33:05,100 --> 00:33:08,180 S2: you can do these things not as acts in themselves, 581 00:33:08,180 --> 00:33:11,700 S2: but as the strengthening of the will toward good, it 582 00:33:11,700 --> 00:33:14,940 S2: makes such a huge difference. All those little choices. Sin 583 00:33:14,940 --> 00:33:17,920 S2: is a sin. When we finally fall into it is 584 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,280 S2: is a result of so many little things that we 585 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:26,400 S2: let go and. Exactly. And he says it's caring for nothing. 586 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:30,160 S2: Sloth is caring for nothing. And and we have to care. 587 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,600 S2: We have to care all the time. I said to 588 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,040 S2: that student I was talking to, he cares. He cares 589 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,760 S2: about it. That's why he's talking about it. And God 590 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,360 S2: is pleased with him because he hasn't stopped caring. 591 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:41,280 S7: MM. 592 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,320 S1: That brings up something that that I found kind of 593 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,760 S1: between the lines. And maybe I'm reading too much into it. 594 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,160 S1: So you tell me Eva Redlich is here, doctor Rosalie 595 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,200 S1: de rosé. We're talking about The Screwtape Letters and that 596 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:57,440 S1: is this uh, and partly is the idea of sloth 597 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:02,760 S1: and the choices. But this move toward comfort, this move 598 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:08,520 S1: toward going away from anything that's hard or moving toward 599 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:13,120 S1: what my goal is so that I reach the goal 600 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:15,969 S1: so that I feel better. As Lewis talks a lot 601 00:34:15,969 --> 00:34:19,130 S1: about that in this book is like, make them feel 602 00:34:19,210 --> 00:34:22,969 S1: everything is about how you feel and not about what is. 603 00:34:23,170 --> 00:34:26,730 S1: And that's why the quote on, um, that you gave 604 00:34:26,770 --> 00:34:30,290 S1: a little earlier, Rosie, is, is so important that that 605 00:34:30,610 --> 00:34:34,250 S1: will still obey even though you feel forsaken. You know, 606 00:34:34,290 --> 00:34:38,050 S1: Psalm 22, uh, the cross, even though you feel forsaken, 607 00:34:38,050 --> 00:34:43,489 S1: you will obey. Uh, I feel like this culture and 608 00:34:43,650 --> 00:34:49,210 S1: maybe this heart moves toward comfort rather than, what do 609 00:34:49,210 --> 00:34:51,569 S1: you want me to do here? What what do I 610 00:34:51,810 --> 00:34:54,050 S1: when do I need to keep quiet and not say 611 00:34:54,050 --> 00:34:57,129 S1: anything that doesn't give me comfort? I want to say 612 00:34:57,130 --> 00:35:00,090 S1: something that makes it all better. And usually it makes 613 00:35:00,090 --> 00:35:03,170 S1: it worse. Does that sing in either of your souls? 614 00:35:03,850 --> 00:35:08,890 S2: Oh, yeah. Uh, I mean, it's a culture that that 615 00:35:09,170 --> 00:35:11,730 S2: and this is a little off off the subject, but 616 00:35:11,770 --> 00:35:15,230 S2: we abandon the things that we know to be right 617 00:35:15,230 --> 00:35:18,190 S2: in favor of the things that seem to be important 618 00:35:18,190 --> 00:35:23,590 S2: or right or easy, or will take us somewhere. Yes, absolutely. 619 00:35:24,190 --> 00:35:24,550 S3: Yeah. 620 00:35:24,590 --> 00:35:25,350 S7: Eva, what do you think? 621 00:35:25,390 --> 00:35:30,029 S3: Yeah, I think that and I think and in 2026, 622 00:35:30,230 --> 00:35:33,710 S3: way even more than in 1941 when he wrote this, 623 00:35:33,910 --> 00:35:38,149 S3: I think that we are, uh, the, the mantra of 624 00:35:38,150 --> 00:35:44,230 S3: our culture is self-care. Just take care of yourself. You know, 625 00:35:44,270 --> 00:35:47,390 S3: it doesn't matter what what you have to abandon, just 626 00:35:47,390 --> 00:35:50,109 S3: as long as you're taking care of yourself. Do the 627 00:35:50,110 --> 00:35:54,149 S3: easy thing. All of that. It just it's it's counter scriptural. 628 00:35:54,350 --> 00:35:58,150 S3: And I think that that Screwtape deals with this. And 629 00:35:58,150 --> 00:36:02,430 S3: one of the my favorite bits in the is letter 29, 630 00:36:02,430 --> 00:36:05,430 S3: where he talks about courage. It takes courage to do 631 00:36:05,430 --> 00:36:07,549 S3: the right thing instead of doing the easy thing or 632 00:36:07,550 --> 00:36:11,110 S3: doing the comfortable thing. And he says in letter 29, 633 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,800 S3: He said this, indeed is probably one of the enemy's 634 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:18,640 S3: motives for creating a dangerous world, a world in which 635 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:23,000 S3: moral issues really come to the point he sees as 636 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,080 S3: well as you do. That courage is not simply one 637 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:29,239 S3: of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at 638 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:33,680 S3: the testing point, which means at the point of highest reality, 639 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:39,640 S3: a chastity or honesty or mercy will only be chaste 640 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:45,720 S3: or honest or merciful only on condition. Pilate was merciful 641 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:47,600 S3: till it became risky. 642 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:48,040 S7: Wow. 643 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:51,440 S2: Yeah. Untried virtue. Yeah. It's so good. 644 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,360 S1: So if you've never read Screwtape, I hope you will. 645 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:58,400 S1: After hearing Doctor Eva Redlich, Doctor Rosalie de rosé. I 646 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:00,359 S1: keep giving you a doctorate. Eva, you got to come 647 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:00,680 S1: back and. 648 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:02,680 S7: Get the the scroll and wear the hat. 649 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:03,680 S2: Yeah. She has one. 650 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:05,239 S7: We, uh we. 651 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,360 S1: Are going to tell you what the next we finished 652 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:10,299 S1: Screwtape and then we're going to tell you what the 653 00:37:10,300 --> 00:37:14,980 S1: next book club choice is. Straight ahead on Moody Radio. 654 00:37:25,260 --> 00:37:28,740 S1: What a fun exercise in literature. Rosie s Book Club 655 00:37:28,739 --> 00:37:32,340 S1: 2.0 here on Chris Avery Live the Radio Backyard Fence 656 00:37:32,340 --> 00:37:36,420 S1: doctor Rose Lydia Rose is leading us today from C.S. 657 00:37:36,420 --> 00:37:39,379 S1: Lewis's The Screwtape Letters. If you haven't read it, I 658 00:37:39,420 --> 00:37:43,260 S1: hope this whets your appetite. And Eva Rudnick, who has 659 00:37:43,260 --> 00:37:46,819 S1: taught this book for a long time at Moody Bible Institute. 660 00:37:46,820 --> 00:37:50,100 S1: So hope you've enjoyed the conversation today. Get back into it. 661 00:37:50,100 --> 00:37:54,379 S1: But first we are going to tell you what in December, 662 00:37:54,380 --> 00:37:57,180 S1: I believe we actually picked the date too, because last 663 00:37:57,180 --> 00:38:01,140 S1: time we didn't pick the date for this December the 8th, 664 00:38:01,700 --> 00:38:04,820 S1: we are going to announce right now, ladies and gentlemen, 665 00:38:04,820 --> 00:38:08,030 S1: write it down. You need to get a copy of. Book. 666 00:38:12,310 --> 00:38:15,669 S1: A Christmas Carol by Charles Dickens. 667 00:38:15,870 --> 00:38:16,350 S7: Yay! 668 00:38:19,310 --> 00:38:23,390 S1: All right, Charlie. We're coming for you, Charles Dickens. Rosie. 669 00:38:23,430 --> 00:38:24,790 S1: Why is that book important? 670 00:38:25,230 --> 00:38:30,870 S2: Well, it's just, first of all, it's just consummately Christmas. Christmas. Uh, 671 00:38:30,910 --> 00:38:33,430 S2: it's also about a man who has been who is 672 00:38:33,469 --> 00:38:38,270 S2: awakened from the, in a way, the acedia of being 673 00:38:38,270 --> 00:38:41,509 S2: caught in his background. And it has it has shriveled 674 00:38:41,510 --> 00:38:44,750 S2: his soul. His soul has become wormy. And he has 675 00:38:44,750 --> 00:38:49,350 S2: to be awakened. Of course, it's it's not explicitly Christian. We. Dickens. 676 00:38:49,350 --> 00:38:51,230 S2: There are a lot of church steeples in Dickens, but 677 00:38:51,230 --> 00:38:54,350 S2: not a lot of salvation by faith. But it's just 678 00:38:54,350 --> 00:38:59,549 S2: this marvelous big story about coming out of the darkness 679 00:38:59,550 --> 00:39:00,430 S2: into the light. 680 00:39:00,989 --> 00:39:04,430 S1: Okay, here's what I'll say. If you've if you've seen 681 00:39:04,430 --> 00:39:08,770 S1: all the films and all the spin off films and everything. Uh, 682 00:39:09,090 --> 00:39:14,250 S1: read the actual text. Read the book or there are 683 00:39:14,250 --> 00:39:18,009 S1: some great audiobooks out that that have the text of this, 684 00:39:18,010 --> 00:39:21,169 S1: but read it and listen and see if you pick 685 00:39:21,210 --> 00:39:24,330 S1: up anything. Every time I read this, it's very short. 686 00:39:24,330 --> 00:39:27,010 S1: Every time I read this, I pick up something new. 687 00:39:27,010 --> 00:39:30,810 S1: So a Christmas Carol, December 8th. Don't you dare miss it. 688 00:39:30,810 --> 00:39:34,290 S1: Now we go to the studio and Tricia McMillan. Tricia, 689 00:39:34,290 --> 00:39:35,649 S1: tell us about Screwtape. 690 00:39:37,290 --> 00:39:37,610 S7: Oh. 691 00:39:38,370 --> 00:39:42,169 S9: Sorry. I was talking to a caller. Um, so so 692 00:39:42,170 --> 00:39:45,250 S9: what I was what I was, um, I guess not 693 00:39:45,250 --> 00:39:49,569 S9: fascinated by so often we are looking for what is 694 00:39:49,570 --> 00:39:52,009 S9: our goal. And we often we have a goal for 695 00:39:52,010 --> 00:39:56,210 S9: whatever that is. And the goal in this seems to 696 00:39:56,250 --> 00:40:00,290 S9: not be an actual goal as much as diversion, misdirection, 697 00:40:00,290 --> 00:40:03,570 S9: distraction like to keep us from getting to the goal 698 00:40:03,969 --> 00:40:07,940 S9: as followers of Christ. So anyway, the quote that really 699 00:40:07,940 --> 00:40:13,020 S9: stuck out to me for today's society, and one that 700 00:40:13,460 --> 00:40:16,420 S9: even as I read it, I was like, oh, I 701 00:40:16,460 --> 00:40:21,940 S9: do this. I shouldn't do this. Um, was where, uh, 702 00:40:21,940 --> 00:40:26,980 S9: it's also in letter 12, but, um, where the person 703 00:40:26,980 --> 00:40:30,859 S9: was struggling. Um, and Screwtape says a few weeks ago, 704 00:40:30,860 --> 00:40:33,700 S9: you had to tempt him to unreality and inattention in 705 00:40:33,700 --> 00:40:36,020 S9: his prayers, but now you find him opening his arms 706 00:40:36,020 --> 00:40:39,380 S9: to you and almost begging you to distract his purpose 707 00:40:39,380 --> 00:40:43,060 S9: and benumb his heart, you will find that anything or 708 00:40:43,060 --> 00:40:46,819 S9: nothing is sufficient to attract his wandering attention. You no 709 00:40:46,820 --> 00:40:49,140 S9: longer need a good book, which he really likes to 710 00:40:49,180 --> 00:40:51,620 S9: keep him from his prayers, or his work or his sleep. 711 00:40:51,900 --> 00:40:55,540 S9: A column of advertisements in yesterday's paper will do. You 712 00:40:55,540 --> 00:40:59,060 S9: can make him waste his time, not only in conversation 713 00:40:59,060 --> 00:41:02,060 S9: he enjoys with people whom he likes, but in conversations 714 00:41:02,060 --> 00:41:05,920 S9: with those he cares nothing about, on subjects that bore him. 715 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,200 S9: You can make him do nothing at all for long periods. 716 00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:12,040 S9: You can keep him up late at night, not roistering, 717 00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:14,680 S9: but staring at a dead fire in a cold room. 718 00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:17,879 S9: All the healthy and outgoing activities which we want him 719 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:21,880 S9: to avoid can be inhibited and nothing given in return. 720 00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:23,960 S9: So that at last you may say, as one of 721 00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:26,759 S9: my own patients said on his arrival down here, I 722 00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,200 S9: now see that I spent most of my life in 723 00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:33,320 S9: doing neither what I ought nor what I liked. Yeah. 724 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:34,480 S9: And I was like, this. 725 00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:34,920 S3: Is great. 726 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:36,520 S9: Scrolling on social media. 727 00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:37,680 S2: Technology. Yeah. 728 00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:41,960 S9: Like I just going through a TV, like flipping through channels. 729 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:44,120 S9: If you want to go even before all the social. 730 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:45,080 S7: What does that make you. 731 00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:47,799 S1: Feel? Then at the end of that, it makes you 732 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:51,520 S1: feel empty, like there's something that has been taken from you. 733 00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:51,920 S7: Right? 734 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:54,920 S9: That's right. And apparently I willingly gave it all to nothing. 735 00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:57,800 S7: Yeah, yeah. Ah, that's. 736 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:01,760 S1: Tricia. Thank you. Uh, my quote I haven't given mine yet. 737 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,969 S1: And this is in chapter 13, letter 13, the man 738 00:42:04,969 --> 00:42:10,170 S1: who truly and disinterestedly enjoys any one thing in the 739 00:42:10,170 --> 00:42:15,930 S1: world for its own sake and without caring tuppence. What 740 00:42:15,969 --> 00:42:19,969 S1: other people say about it is by that very fact 741 00:42:19,969 --> 00:42:25,370 S1: forearmed against some of our subtlest modes of attack. 742 00:42:25,890 --> 00:42:26,330 S7: So good. 743 00:42:26,370 --> 00:42:29,490 S1: And. And in that, I think rosy. He's he's calling 744 00:42:29,489 --> 00:42:32,529 S1: out beauty in a sense, isn't he? 745 00:42:32,570 --> 00:42:36,729 S2: Yes. Oh. Oh. I mean, when you love something and 746 00:42:36,730 --> 00:42:38,410 S2: delight in it, and I mean in the in the 747 00:42:38,410 --> 00:42:42,250 S2: very purest sense of the word and you don't care. 748 00:42:42,250 --> 00:42:45,290 S2: It's not not what everybody else is doing. Maybe somebody 749 00:42:45,290 --> 00:42:48,330 S2: has thought it was childish, but you do it for 750 00:42:48,330 --> 00:42:51,690 S2: the love of it. Usually when you love something, there's 751 00:42:51,690 --> 00:42:56,610 S2: something beautiful in there, or substantial or playful or delightful. 752 00:42:56,610 --> 00:42:59,770 S2: You have enhanced your spirit. I don't think most people 753 00:42:59,770 --> 00:43:03,670 S2: even do what they like. They do What is there 754 00:43:03,710 --> 00:43:06,230 S2: that other people are doing, or they have fallen into 755 00:43:06,230 --> 00:43:07,590 S2: the trap of the culture? 756 00:43:08,750 --> 00:43:12,509 S1: Uh, evil. What about the person of Christ in Screwtape? 757 00:43:12,550 --> 00:43:15,870 S3: Uh, yeah. It's interesting. You might not, when you take 758 00:43:15,870 --> 00:43:17,310 S3: the book as a whole, he has a lot to 759 00:43:17,310 --> 00:43:22,030 S3: say about the Lord Jesus, but he says, um, one 760 00:43:22,030 --> 00:43:25,069 S3: of the things is how we how the enemy, how 761 00:43:25,070 --> 00:43:29,470 S3: they Wormwood and Screwtape and the lot try to distract us. 762 00:43:29,469 --> 00:43:32,150 S3: It said in the first place, they all tend to 763 00:43:32,190 --> 00:43:36,710 S3: direct men's devotion to something which does not exist for 764 00:43:36,710 --> 00:43:41,509 S3: each historical Jesus is unhistorical, but that the way that 765 00:43:41,510 --> 00:43:44,790 S3: Jesus is presented in the culture is not who Jesus 766 00:43:44,790 --> 00:43:50,710 S3: really is in the scriptures. And yet it's so effectively misleading. 767 00:43:51,150 --> 00:43:55,390 S3: We thus distract men's minds from who he is and 768 00:43:55,390 --> 00:43:59,509 S3: what he did. The earliest converts were converted by a 769 00:43:59,510 --> 00:44:05,560 S3: single historical fact, the resurrection and a single theological doctrine, 770 00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:07,880 S3: the redemption. Oh, I love that. 771 00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:10,240 S2: That is so good. And that could happen. And even 772 00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:16,040 S2: theological classes. Yes. Christian schools. People get distracted with the arguments, 773 00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:18,879 S2: with the. And they have not read the Gospels and 774 00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:22,439 S2: the narrative of the bigness of Christ as a three 775 00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:23,600 S2: dimensional person. 776 00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:24,160 S3: Yes. 777 00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:24,760 S2: Yeah. 778 00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:27,560 S1: We had a caller who was asking, what do you 779 00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:33,040 S1: think about Tolkien's pushback about demonic things or the use 780 00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:36,560 S1: of imagination in this? Eva, what do you say to that? 781 00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:39,760 S3: I didn't say that Tolkien pushed back about demonic things. 782 00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:43,359 S3: I just think he thought that that, uh, Lewis was 783 00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:47,640 S3: a little bit over his head dealing with with all 784 00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:49,960 S3: of these issues. I don't think it was a demonic 785 00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:51,560 S3: issue with Tolkien that he was dealing. 786 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:54,440 S2: He didn't like The Chronicles of Narnia. He didn't see anybody. 787 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:56,799 S3: He wasn't a fan of the Chronicles either. You know. 788 00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:59,500 S1: But isn't that interesting that they were such great friends 789 00:44:59,820 --> 00:45:02,660 S1: and they had disagreement about, you know, I don't think 790 00:45:02,660 --> 00:45:04,660 S1: that's a good idea for you to do, and you shouldn't. 791 00:45:04,900 --> 00:45:08,819 S1: And they still had the gravitas to go ahead and 792 00:45:08,820 --> 00:45:11,460 S1: do what they felt like God had called them to do. 793 00:45:11,500 --> 00:45:13,419 S3: Right. And they both loved the Lord Jesus and loved 794 00:45:13,420 --> 00:45:16,980 S3: one another. And I. Tolkien said when Lewis died, he 795 00:45:16,980 --> 00:45:20,140 S3: felt as if a part of himself had been chopped away. 796 00:45:20,420 --> 00:45:24,700 S1: Yeah. Great idea. Rosie, thank you for suggesting this. This 797 00:45:24,700 --> 00:45:26,660 S1: has been a real. And I read this when I 798 00:45:26,660 --> 00:45:29,020 S1: was a teenager. I think Mark said that as well. 799 00:45:29,020 --> 00:45:30,859 S1: I read it as a teenager and as I read 800 00:45:30,860 --> 00:45:35,180 S1: it again now, many years later, I'm wondering how much 801 00:45:35,180 --> 00:45:39,100 S1: did I absorb when I was a teenager? Because there's such, 802 00:45:39,260 --> 00:45:42,940 S1: you know, even the idea of the warfare that's going 803 00:45:42,940 --> 00:45:44,900 S1: on in World War Two at the time of war 804 00:45:44,900 --> 00:45:48,820 S1: and writing this at that point and doing that historically 805 00:45:48,820 --> 00:45:50,819 S1: to look at what are the demons trying to do? 806 00:45:50,860 --> 00:45:53,860 S1: How are they using this? I found it really fascinating. 807 00:45:53,860 --> 00:45:56,940 S1: And so if you've never read The Screwtape Letters, there 808 00:45:56,940 --> 00:45:59,950 S1: you go. There's an over a flyover of it and 809 00:45:59,950 --> 00:46:03,070 S1: the import of it from here at the back fence. Right. 810 00:46:03,070 --> 00:46:07,710 S1: December 8th Down A Christmas Carol by Charles Dickens. We're 811 00:46:07,710 --> 00:46:09,910 S1: going to talk about it right here at the Radio 812 00:46:09,910 --> 00:46:13,030 S1: Backyard fence. Rosie, you come back and see us then, 813 00:46:13,070 --> 00:46:14,029 S1: my friend. All right. 814 00:46:14,030 --> 00:46:14,630 S2: We'll be there. 815 00:46:15,350 --> 00:46:18,230 S1: And Eva, thank you. I've gotten some texts from Michael 816 00:46:18,230 --> 00:46:21,310 S1: as we've been on the program here today. Isn't that 817 00:46:21,350 --> 00:46:22,430 S1: isn't that wonderful? 818 00:46:22,469 --> 00:46:24,430 S3: Quality candy? That's what we give it. Halloween. 819 00:46:24,469 --> 00:46:27,190 S1: Yeah. We, uh, we we grabbed his heart and we 820 00:46:27,190 --> 00:46:30,150 S1: wouldn't let go. And Eva, God bless you, friend. Thanks 821 00:46:30,150 --> 00:46:30,870 S1: for doing this today. 822 00:46:30,910 --> 00:46:31,910 S3: So great to be with you. 823 00:46:32,350 --> 00:46:34,830 S1: And thank you, friend, for coming along to the Radio 824 00:46:34,830 --> 00:46:38,230 S1: Backyard fence. If you enjoy these conversations, tell somebody else 825 00:46:38,230 --> 00:46:40,870 S1: about them. Go download the podcast, send it to a 826 00:46:40,870 --> 00:46:45,830 S1: friend or family member, support what we do@cris.org and come 827 00:46:45,830 --> 00:46:49,030 S1: on back tomorrow. Our program is production of Moody Radio, 828 00:46:49,070 --> 00:46:51,430 S1: a Ministry of Moody Bible Institute.