1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,400 S1: Hi friends, this is Janet Parshall. Thanks so much for 2 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:05,160 S1: downloading this podcast, and I hope you hear something that 3 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,560 S1: will really encourage and edify you. But before you start 4 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:09,400 S1: to listen, let me take a moment of your time 5 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:11,399 S1: and tell you about this month's truth tool. It's called 6 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:14,640 S1: secure How to Have a Healthy Attachment to God. And 7 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:17,360 S1: it follows that very often, whatever our relationship is like 8 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:21,000 S1: with authority figures, predominantly our parents, we somehow transferred to 9 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:23,000 S1: how we see God. So if we have an angry parent, 10 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:25,319 S1: he's an angry God. If it's a distant parent, he's 11 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:27,520 S1: a God who's not there. I think it's important we 12 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,680 S1: understand who God really is. And in this wonderful book 13 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:33,760 S1: called secure, you're going to discover the character of God 14 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:37,120 S1: and how deeply in love God is with you. It's 15 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:38,839 S1: our truth tool. Our truth tools are my way of 16 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:41,680 S1: saying thank you because we are listener supported radio. So 17 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,600 S1: if you'd like a copy of secure, just call eight 7758. 18 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:48,760 S1: That's eight 7758. Give a gift of any amount. My 19 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:50,840 S1: way of saying thank you for supporting the program is 20 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:53,000 S1: I'll send you a copy of secure. You can also 21 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,560 S1: do this online at in the Market with Janet. Scroll 22 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:58,720 S1: to the bottom of the page. There's the cover of 23 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:02,260 S1: the book secure. Click on the photo. Go right on through. 24 00:01:02,300 --> 00:01:04,500 S1: Make your donation and we'll send you a copy again 25 00:01:04,500 --> 00:01:07,540 S1: of secure. If you want to consider becoming a partial partner, 26 00:01:07,540 --> 00:01:10,540 S1: that is the ever increasing circle of friends who give 27 00:01:10,540 --> 00:01:13,020 S1: every single month at a level of their own choosing. 28 00:01:13,020 --> 00:01:15,220 S1: And my way of saying thank you is this you 29 00:01:15,220 --> 00:01:17,500 S1: always get the truth tool for each and every month. 30 00:01:17,500 --> 00:01:20,100 S1: And in addition to that, you get a weekly newsletter 31 00:01:20,100 --> 00:01:22,459 S1: that includes some of my writing and a little audio 32 00:01:22,459 --> 00:01:25,060 S1: piece just for my partial partners. So either way, thank 33 00:01:25,060 --> 00:01:28,660 S1: you in advance for prayerfully considering the opportunity to financially 34 00:01:28,660 --> 00:01:31,300 S1: support in the market with Janet partial and keeping it 35 00:01:31,300 --> 00:01:33,340 S1: on the air now, I hope you hear something that 36 00:01:33,340 --> 00:01:36,260 S1: will encourage you to get out and influence and occupy 37 00:01:36,260 --> 00:01:37,860 S1: in the marketplace of ideas. 38 00:01:39,180 --> 00:01:40,699 S2: Here are some of the news headlines we're watching. 39 00:01:40,980 --> 00:01:43,259 S3: The conference was over. The president won a pledge. 40 00:01:43,380 --> 00:01:45,459 S4: Americans worshiping government over God. 41 00:01:45,780 --> 00:01:47,900 S3: Extremely rare safety move by a. 42 00:01:48,300 --> 00:01:51,260 S4: 17 years of Palestinians and Israelis negotiated. 43 00:01:51,620 --> 00:02:07,200 S3: This is not. Hi friends. 44 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:09,639 S1: Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. Thank you 45 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:11,960 S1: so much for choosing to spend the hour with us. 46 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:15,000 S1: We're going to tackle an interesting and important topic. All 47 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,360 S1: those voices you just heard in the cacophony of the 48 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:20,240 S1: marketplace of ideas. Do you know what's universal for every 49 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:22,560 S1: single one of those voices that you heard in all 50 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:25,120 S1: of the voices that are in the marketplace of ideas, 51 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:31,560 S1: every single one of us is going to suffer 100% guaranteed. 52 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:34,680 S1: You will not if when it's going to happen to 53 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:36,400 S1: every single one of us. Now for the world who 54 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,600 S1: doesn't yet know Christ as their personal Savior, I can't 55 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:43,079 S1: imagine anything more agonizing than going through suffering that is 56 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:47,000 S1: going to happen to every single human being. Because our 57 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:49,760 S1: mailing address is east of Eden, I can't imagine what 58 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:52,200 S1: it's like to endure without knowing that Christ is on 59 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:54,480 S1: the throne, and that he will be with me through 60 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:57,380 S1: my suffering, and that in the final analysis, it is 61 00:02:57,380 --> 00:03:00,220 S1: for my good. If you can't see good in suffering, 62 00:03:00,220 --> 00:03:02,340 S1: then it must be the most miserable of all conditions. 63 00:03:02,340 --> 00:03:05,140 S1: But for the believer, we do struggle in this particular area. 64 00:03:05,620 --> 00:03:07,740 S1: But then we have to stop and realise that God's 65 00:03:07,740 --> 00:03:09,580 S1: told us about this, by the way, and this is 66 00:03:09,580 --> 00:03:12,020 S1: why we shouldn't act so surprised when it happens. It 67 00:03:12,020 --> 00:03:13,980 S1: happens in somebody else's life. We go, yeah, I get it. 68 00:03:14,020 --> 00:03:16,780 S1: It's it's supposed to happen for us. Not if but 69 00:03:16,780 --> 00:03:19,820 S1: when those fiery trials come and then we go, yeah, 70 00:03:19,820 --> 00:03:22,060 S1: I understand, but when it shows up at our front door, 71 00:03:22,060 --> 00:03:26,419 S1: why are we always in a state of shock and awe? What? What? Whoa! 72 00:03:26,460 --> 00:03:28,980 S1: If God is good karma, then fill in the blank. 73 00:03:29,020 --> 00:03:31,460 S1: Why am I suffering? Well, I want you to know 74 00:03:31,460 --> 00:03:33,900 S1: that when I've gone through the fiery trials. And by 75 00:03:33,900 --> 00:03:36,500 S1: the way, here's a newsflash. Probably most important headline of 76 00:03:36,500 --> 00:03:39,340 S1: the day. You're in one of three places regarding suffering. 77 00:03:39,340 --> 00:03:41,900 S1: You're about to enter into the refiner's fire. You join 78 00:03:41,900 --> 00:03:44,860 S1: me today from the refiner's fire, or you've just walked 79 00:03:44,860 --> 00:03:47,260 S1: out of the refiner's fire. And that's going to be 80 00:03:47,260 --> 00:03:49,700 S1: the rhythm until the Lord calls you home. About two 81 00:03:49,740 --> 00:03:52,100 S1: in it walked out. And for every one of us 82 00:03:52,100 --> 00:03:54,540 S1: who's walked out of the refiner's fire, I bet the 83 00:03:54,540 --> 00:03:56,920 S1: overwhelming majority of us would say, I don't want to 84 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,360 S1: be the person I was before I stepped in, because 85 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,720 S1: I'd been changed for good. I'm not referring to a musical, 86 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:04,880 S1: I'm referring to the Word of God. By the way, 87 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:07,800 S1: you are changed as a course of suffering. You know, 88 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:09,400 S1: I don't know about you, but I'm making a long 89 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:11,320 S1: list of verses I'm trying to memorize. And you know 90 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:13,360 S1: what one of the verses is I memorized for this year? 91 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:17,400 S1: Psalm one, 1971. It is good for me that I 92 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:21,560 S1: was afflicted, that I might learn your statutes. Now, that's 93 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:23,160 S1: probably not on the top ten list for a lot 94 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:25,920 S1: of people's memorized Bible verses. But, you know, that's an 95 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:28,520 S1: important takeaway for me. It is good for me that 96 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:31,719 S1: I was afflicted, that I might learn your statute. So 97 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:34,480 S1: it really does raise the question, how does God use 98 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,160 S1: suffering for our good? That is the question on the 99 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:39,080 S1: table this hour. And we've got a husband and wife 100 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:41,760 S1: team who have co-written a book that bears that exact title. 101 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,280 S1: How does God use suffering for our good? But also, 102 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:46,599 S1: they join us today because they've been beat up, battered 103 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:49,520 S1: and bruised and been through the refiner's fire. And in 104 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:51,400 S1: many ways, they're still there. Let me tell you who 105 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:54,260 S1: Clay and Jean Jones are. Clay is a former pastor 106 00:04:54,260 --> 00:04:56,580 S1: who for 16 years was a prof. And the Master 107 00:04:56,580 --> 00:05:00,539 S1: of Arts of Christian Apologetics Program at Talbot School of Theology. 108 00:05:00,580 --> 00:05:04,740 S1: He's the author of Why Does God Allow Evil and Immortal? Jean, 109 00:05:04,740 --> 00:05:07,659 S1: his wife, is co-author of five books, including discovering Joy 110 00:05:07,660 --> 00:05:10,700 S1: in Philippians. She is a member of Women in Apologetics 111 00:05:10,700 --> 00:05:15,180 S1: and a Bible Teacher. She's published with Crosswalk.com, Today's Christian Woman, 112 00:05:15,180 --> 00:05:18,820 S1: and Home Life magazine. Together, they tell their story and 113 00:05:18,820 --> 00:05:23,219 S1: they walk us through some very important principles about understanding 114 00:05:23,220 --> 00:05:26,020 S1: what suffering is all about. So wait. Don't turn. Don't 115 00:05:26,020 --> 00:05:28,940 S1: leave the room. Be encouraged. All right. You can run, 116 00:05:28,940 --> 00:05:31,780 S1: but you can't hide. We're all going to experience suffering. 117 00:05:31,980 --> 00:05:35,820 S1: God tells us that we understand that's part of his economy. 118 00:05:35,820 --> 00:05:38,179 S1: This is part of our experience here before he takes 119 00:05:38,180 --> 00:05:40,300 S1: us home. And if you really and truly are a 120 00:05:40,300 --> 00:05:43,380 S1: student of the word over and over and over and 121 00:05:43,380 --> 00:05:46,940 S1: over and over again, we read about suffering. He doesn't 122 00:05:46,940 --> 00:05:50,300 S1: leave us alone. Most important point, Clay and Jean, thank 123 00:05:50,300 --> 00:05:52,140 S1: you so very much for being with us. I really 124 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:55,120 S1: appreciate it. You know your story, both of you is 125 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:57,320 S1: filled with a lot of trials and tribulation, and you're 126 00:05:57,320 --> 00:05:59,839 S1: very transparent in your book about that, and I appreciate 127 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:03,680 S1: it because you have the ethos, obviously, with your background 128 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:06,520 S1: in apologetics, but the pathos means you've been there. You 129 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,839 S1: know what it's like to be alone and hurting and 130 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:12,719 S1: a tear stained pillow. And that just adds gravitas to 131 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:15,560 S1: this conversation, because for a lot of believers, they think, oh, 132 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:17,360 S1: that person up in the front, they've got the perfect 133 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:18,960 S1: life so they can talk about it. And I'm sure 134 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:22,360 S1: they suffered perfectly if we have to suffer at all. Well, 135 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:24,560 S1: you're very transparent in this book about the things that 136 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:27,360 S1: you've gone through. So the question is chicken and egg 137 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:29,320 S1: and clay, if I can, let me start with you. 138 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:34,360 S1: Did you really understand suffering before you started suffering? Or 139 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:37,440 S1: did your understanding of suffering come as a result of suffering? 140 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:42,719 S5: Oh, no. You're right. It came as a result of suffering. Uh, 141 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,240 S5: I remember, you know, when I was, I became a 142 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:49,400 S5: Christian at 13 and had my first major trial. I 143 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:54,220 S5: thought at 14, I thought I'd committed the unpardonable sin. 144 00:06:54,220 --> 00:06:57,420 S5: And man, I was depressed and I'd go and talk 145 00:06:57,420 --> 00:07:00,980 S5: to these counselors, and these counselors would, uh, tell me, oh, no, 146 00:07:00,980 --> 00:07:03,380 S5: you haven't committed it. And I'd walk away and go, um, 147 00:07:03,380 --> 00:07:06,140 S5: what if they're wrong? What if I have committed it? Uh, 148 00:07:06,180 --> 00:07:08,860 S5: what I finally did is, is I memorized a whole 149 00:07:08,860 --> 00:07:11,860 S5: bunch of verses that assured me of my salvation. And 150 00:07:11,860 --> 00:07:14,660 S5: whenever I'd get into that cycle where I was like, oh, no, 151 00:07:14,660 --> 00:07:16,780 S5: what have I done? I would quote verses like John 152 00:07:16,780 --> 00:07:20,580 S5: 524 and John 316. Of course. And they said, believe 153 00:07:20,580 --> 00:07:24,380 S5: in him, and you will be saved. And once. And 154 00:07:24,420 --> 00:07:28,340 S5: that hardened my resolve, that I indeed really was saved. 155 00:07:28,340 --> 00:07:30,820 S5: But when that was over, when I got to the 156 00:07:30,820 --> 00:07:33,940 S5: point where I knew, you know what? I'm saved. Uh, 157 00:07:34,220 --> 00:07:37,980 S5: something else happened. I realized I was such an undisciplined person. 158 00:07:37,980 --> 00:07:40,820 S5: I had a very undisciplined mind. Uh, I think more 159 00:07:40,820 --> 00:07:45,020 S5: than most people do at 14. Uh, and terrible student. 160 00:07:45,180 --> 00:07:48,260 S5: But I learned that I could control my thoughts. And 161 00:07:48,260 --> 00:07:51,240 S5: that was the first time, first experience of suffering where 162 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:54,640 S5: I went. You know what? That was hard. Very hard. 163 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,240 S5: But it was really good for me. And so, yes, uh, 164 00:07:57,240 --> 00:07:59,480 S5: I learned about suffering through suffering. 165 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:02,320 S1: Wow, wow. Jean, let me turn to you. And I'm 166 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:04,320 S1: going to kind of linger at the 35,000 foot a 167 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:07,000 S1: little bit here, because this issue of suffering is monumental. 168 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,760 S1: It's an issue, I think, that either keeps people away 169 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:14,600 S1: from the cross or has them walk away from the cross. Uh, 170 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:17,560 S1: and I remember Christopher Hitchens. I debated him on multiple occasions, 171 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:20,480 S1: and his was this issue of suffering where he just. Absolutely. 172 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:23,920 S1: I think that was the genesis of his repulsion against Christianity. 173 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:26,360 S1: Because if God was good karma, then why would a 174 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:28,760 S1: five year old die of leukemia? So he couldn't square 175 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:31,320 S1: that off with the characteristics of God? So that's one 176 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:33,320 S1: of those questions. And I remember and I'm Clay. Thank 177 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:35,120 S1: you for that. I came to the Lord as a 178 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:38,679 S1: single digit aged child in Sunday school. But I remember 179 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:41,000 S1: as I was growing up struggling with that passage in 180 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:44,280 S1: Hebrews that says, he Chasteneth, I'll use the King James here, 181 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:48,179 S1: he Caithness, those whom he loveth. And I remember thinking, 182 00:08:48,179 --> 00:08:49,980 S1: I don't want to be spanked by God. I don't 183 00:08:49,980 --> 00:08:51,740 S1: want that at all. Maybe if I just stand in 184 00:08:51,740 --> 00:08:53,980 S1: the back of the room, God won't notice me and 185 00:08:53,980 --> 00:08:56,500 S1: I won't have to be chastened. Gene, let me pick 186 00:08:56,540 --> 00:08:58,059 S1: up with you on the other side of the break, 187 00:08:58,059 --> 00:09:01,260 S1: if I can. If we don't understand who God is, 188 00:09:01,260 --> 00:09:04,580 S1: then we're certainly never going to understand why suffering could 189 00:09:04,580 --> 00:09:06,700 S1: ever be used by God for our good. So let 190 00:09:06,700 --> 00:09:08,579 S1: me pick it up at that point when we return. 191 00:09:08,700 --> 00:09:10,860 S1: This is an important topic because every single one of 192 00:09:10,860 --> 00:09:13,740 S1: us will are or have suffered. And I want you 193 00:09:13,740 --> 00:09:16,140 S1: to understand where God is in the midst of this. 194 00:09:16,140 --> 00:09:18,140 S1: And as Clay and Gene write in their new book, 195 00:09:18,300 --> 00:09:22,140 S1: God can use our suffering for good. Stick around to 196 00:09:22,179 --> 00:09:46,100 S1: learn out how. How does our view of God get distorted? 197 00:09:46,140 --> 00:09:48,720 S1: Do you struggle with feeling close to God? Well, that's 198 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:51,439 S1: why I've chosen secure. How to have a healthy attachment 199 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:54,040 S1: to God. As this month's truth tool, discover how to 200 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:56,960 S1: counter the lies about the truth of God's character. Ask 201 00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:59,160 S1: for your copy of secure. When you give a gift 202 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:02,960 S1: of any amount to in the market, call 877. 58 203 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:06,880 S1: that's eight 7758 or go to in the market with 204 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:12,400 S1: Janet Parshall. We are spending the hour with Clay and 205 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:16,040 S1: Jean Jones, both very much involved in ministry and apologetics. 206 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:19,320 S1: And together they've co-authored a wonderful book called How Does 207 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:22,760 S1: God Use Suffering for Our Good Living with Hope while 208 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:26,319 S1: Making Sense of life. A very important and powerful book. So, Jean, 209 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,400 S1: coming round the corner, back to you again. I think 210 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:32,480 S1: one of the transcendent issues about suffering is what it 211 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:36,040 S1: says about our understanding of the nature of God. So 212 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:38,720 S1: talk to me about that, because if God is good, 213 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:41,960 S1: why would he chasten me? Why would he? I use 214 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:44,160 S1: my colloquialism because as a child growing up, that was 215 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:46,620 S1: the word I used. Why would God want to spank me? 216 00:10:46,620 --> 00:10:48,500 S1: And how could that possibly be for my good? 217 00:10:49,340 --> 00:10:52,500 S6: Oh, that is a good question. That's one of the 218 00:10:52,500 --> 00:10:56,339 S6: things that we have to really deal with and think through. 219 00:10:56,620 --> 00:11:00,459 S6: And one of the problems is that we forget about often, 220 00:11:00,460 --> 00:11:04,300 S6: is that we tend to not see our own character 221 00:11:04,300 --> 00:11:08,340 S6: flaws very well. But God cares very, very, very much 222 00:11:08,340 --> 00:11:12,100 S6: for us. And he is intent on making us Christ like. 223 00:11:12,300 --> 00:11:18,140 S6: He's he's, uh, very steady in wanting to take the 224 00:11:18,140 --> 00:11:20,980 S6: parts of us that aren't good and get them out 225 00:11:20,980 --> 00:11:24,059 S6: of us, discipline us so that we will be Christ 226 00:11:24,100 --> 00:11:26,740 S6: like and can be loving to other people and can 227 00:11:26,740 --> 00:11:30,459 S6: learn how good he really and truly is. After all, 228 00:11:30,500 --> 00:11:34,140 S6: he decided to empathize so fully with the suffering that 229 00:11:34,140 --> 00:11:38,460 S6: we go through that His Son came to earth and 230 00:11:38,460 --> 00:11:40,740 S6: died on the cross to pay for our sins, and 231 00:11:40,740 --> 00:11:44,290 S6: to show how much he really does empathize with our 232 00:11:44,290 --> 00:11:45,290 S6: own suffering. 233 00:11:45,330 --> 00:11:48,290 S1: Yes. Yes. Such an important point. Well, Clay, you and 234 00:11:48,290 --> 00:11:51,490 S1: Gene write about seven important truths on this issue. And actually, 235 00:11:51,490 --> 00:11:53,490 S1: this is really the first one that God loves us. 236 00:11:53,530 --> 00:11:55,650 S1: You know, even when you're not in the midst of suffering. 237 00:11:55,929 --> 00:11:59,130 S1: Why is it and I appeal to your your professor's heart, 238 00:11:59,170 --> 00:12:01,370 S1: your pastoral heart as well? Why is it that even 239 00:12:01,370 --> 00:12:04,290 S1: when we're not suffering as believers, we so often fail 240 00:12:04,330 --> 00:12:08,089 S1: to understand the nature of God loving us unconditionally? We. 241 00:12:08,090 --> 00:12:10,410 S1: There's no other human being. I adore my husband. We've 242 00:12:10,410 --> 00:12:12,689 S1: been married more than a half a century together, but 243 00:12:12,690 --> 00:12:14,569 S1: I can tell you, I'm sure there are caveats and 244 00:12:14,570 --> 00:12:17,650 S1: conditions on our relationship all the time. It's not the 245 00:12:17,650 --> 00:12:21,450 S1: same when we're loved by God unconditionally, and nothing and 246 00:12:21,450 --> 00:12:23,449 S1: no one can separate me from the love of God. 247 00:12:23,650 --> 00:12:25,610 S1: How do we. If this is truth number one, and 248 00:12:25,610 --> 00:12:28,330 S1: it needs to be applied contextually to the issue of suffering, 249 00:12:28,570 --> 00:12:30,970 S1: where do we begin to fully wrap our arms around 250 00:12:30,970 --> 00:12:32,530 S1: the nature of God's love for us? 251 00:12:33,290 --> 00:12:37,610 S5: Well, I think that the crucifixion that Jeannie just mentioned 252 00:12:37,650 --> 00:12:42,010 S5: is I mean, that's where he demonstrates his love for us, right? 253 00:12:42,110 --> 00:12:44,710 S5: And I think Christians really need to think through the 254 00:12:44,710 --> 00:12:48,510 S5: crucifixion a little more. The trouble, Janet, as you know, uh, 255 00:12:49,110 --> 00:12:51,510 S5: is you've made it very clear you have a firm 256 00:12:51,510 --> 00:12:55,510 S5: grasp on the importance of suffering. And the trouble is, 257 00:12:55,550 --> 00:12:58,630 S5: is that so many Christians are not meditating on the 258 00:12:58,630 --> 00:13:02,710 S5: Word of God. They're not thinking it through. Jesus said 259 00:13:02,710 --> 00:13:06,270 S5: in John 832, if you abide in my word, then 260 00:13:06,270 --> 00:13:09,069 S5: you really are my disciples, and you will know the truth, 261 00:13:09,070 --> 00:13:11,990 S5: and the truth will make you free. And Jesus, of course, 262 00:13:11,990 --> 00:13:15,349 S5: also told the parable of the wise and foolish builders. 263 00:13:15,550 --> 00:13:17,470 S5: And he says, the wise one is the one who 264 00:13:17,510 --> 00:13:19,710 S5: hears my words and puts them into practice. The foolish 265 00:13:19,710 --> 00:13:23,190 S5: one is the one who hears my words. Uh, and 266 00:13:23,190 --> 00:13:26,790 S5: and we have got to spend more time thinking about 267 00:13:26,790 --> 00:13:30,270 S5: the Bible. We've got to spend more time thinking biblically. 268 00:13:30,550 --> 00:13:33,950 S5: I just can't even emphasize that enough. And so many 269 00:13:33,950 --> 00:13:38,190 S5: Christians that I know honestly spend very little time on 270 00:13:38,550 --> 00:13:43,010 S5: any kind of regular basis Meditating on Scripture and that 271 00:13:43,010 --> 00:13:46,610 S5: is to their harm. And so they're not understanding what 272 00:13:46,650 --> 00:13:49,010 S5: God's plan is in the universe, and they surely are. 273 00:13:49,090 --> 00:13:51,410 S5: We need to focus on the fact that Jesus really 274 00:13:51,410 --> 00:13:54,210 S5: did die on the cross. He was tortured to death. 275 00:13:54,330 --> 00:13:58,250 S5: And by the way, he didn't have a loincloth in 276 00:13:58,290 --> 00:14:01,530 S5: in real life. Uh, he was up there naked. He 277 00:14:01,530 --> 00:14:04,410 S5: did that for us. And we need to spend more 278 00:14:04,410 --> 00:14:06,050 S5: time thinking that through. 279 00:14:06,530 --> 00:14:08,650 S1: Clay, I'm so glad you brought that up. I, like 280 00:14:08,650 --> 00:14:11,209 S1: millions of people, wept when I saw The Passion of 281 00:14:11,210 --> 00:14:13,730 S1: the Christ. And maybe it's just because in my category 282 00:14:13,730 --> 00:14:16,610 S1: of learning, I'm a visual learner. So the visuals on 283 00:14:16,650 --> 00:14:19,290 S1: that were profound. And that was a breakthrough moment for 284 00:14:19,290 --> 00:14:21,170 S1: me for a myriad of reasons, not the least of 285 00:14:21,170 --> 00:14:24,130 S1: which was it really began to give me 2020 perspective 286 00:14:24,130 --> 00:14:26,930 S1: on the issue of suffering, because one of the transcendent 287 00:14:26,930 --> 00:14:29,850 S1: questions in this difficult topic is, can any good come 288 00:14:29,850 --> 00:14:32,330 S1: out of suffering? Well, as I sat there and I 289 00:14:32,370 --> 00:14:34,730 S1: watched visually what the Bible has told me in his 290 00:14:34,730 --> 00:14:37,410 S1: printed word, Isaiah says he's beaten beyond recognition. So we 291 00:14:37,410 --> 00:14:39,310 S1: didn't even go far enough in the movie when you 292 00:14:39,310 --> 00:14:41,710 S1: think about it, if you know that 40 lashes can 293 00:14:41,710 --> 00:14:44,870 S1: take somebody's life, think how many times Jesus was lashed. 294 00:14:44,870 --> 00:14:47,910 S1: And all of these are not metaphor. These are absolute 295 00:14:47,910 --> 00:14:50,950 S1: facts that happen to him. He suffered. And if he 296 00:14:50,950 --> 00:14:53,590 S1: hadn't done that for us, Clay, we would be the 297 00:14:53,590 --> 00:14:56,070 S1: most wretched of all human beings. So for me, that 298 00:14:56,070 --> 00:14:59,590 S1: crucifixion question really starts to put the whole subject of 299 00:14:59,590 --> 00:15:03,310 S1: suffering into focus, because had Christ not suffered for me 300 00:15:03,310 --> 00:15:06,470 S1: by his stripes, I'm healed right by his wounds. If 301 00:15:06,470 --> 00:15:10,230 S1: that hadn't happened, I my life would be empty. So 302 00:15:10,270 --> 00:15:12,790 S1: that's the question right there. Can any good come out 303 00:15:12,790 --> 00:15:15,310 S1: of suffering? I give you Calvary and the empty grave. 304 00:15:16,590 --> 00:15:20,870 S5: Absolutely. And I, I, I can't emphasize enough, uh, the 305 00:15:20,910 --> 00:15:24,270 S5: significance of that. And, and again, you know, uh, Paul 306 00:15:24,270 --> 00:15:25,910 S5: prays that we would know the height and depth and 307 00:15:25,910 --> 00:15:29,350 S5: length and width of the love of God. Uh, and really, 308 00:15:29,350 --> 00:15:32,670 S5: the cross is what brings that home more than any 309 00:15:32,670 --> 00:15:37,770 S5: other thing in Scripture. And the trouble is, Jesus said, 310 00:15:37,770 --> 00:15:40,330 S5: if anyone would come after me, let him deny himself, 311 00:15:40,330 --> 00:15:43,490 S5: pick up his cross daily and follow me. The only 312 00:15:43,490 --> 00:15:47,010 S5: cross in when Jesus said that that the people would 313 00:15:47,010 --> 00:15:49,410 S5: be thinking of would be the one where you were 314 00:15:49,410 --> 00:15:52,490 S5: stripped naked and had spikes driven through your hands and 315 00:15:52,490 --> 00:15:56,810 S5: your feet, and you did all of your bodily functions 316 00:15:56,810 --> 00:16:00,050 S5: there in public, in front of everybody. That's the only 317 00:16:00,090 --> 00:16:03,970 S5: cross that they would think of. Unfortunately, today, I mean, 318 00:16:04,010 --> 00:16:08,610 S5: it's not wrong to cross and that's great. But the 319 00:16:08,810 --> 00:16:12,290 S5: today when we think of a cross, often it is 320 00:16:12,410 --> 00:16:15,090 S5: made out of gold or silver or something like that. 321 00:16:15,090 --> 00:16:18,490 S5: And it is on a chain around our neck. And 322 00:16:18,690 --> 00:16:21,210 S5: that's I don't have anything against that. Let me just 323 00:16:21,210 --> 00:16:25,130 S5: emphasize that there's nothing wrong with that. But it's become 324 00:16:25,170 --> 00:16:27,490 S5: makes the cross kind of into something pretty. It makes 325 00:16:27,490 --> 00:16:31,210 S5: it into jewelry. And we need to understand when Jesus said, 326 00:16:31,250 --> 00:16:33,930 S5: take up, he must take up his cross. They knew 327 00:16:33,970 --> 00:16:37,790 S5: that they were talking about being nailed to one naked 328 00:16:37,790 --> 00:16:38,989 S5: in front of everybody. 329 00:16:39,150 --> 00:16:40,390 S7: Mhm. Mhm. 330 00:16:40,830 --> 00:16:43,350 S1: And not only that but to take up your cross. 331 00:16:43,390 --> 00:16:46,150 S1: And it's a daily experience for me. It isn't a 332 00:16:46,150 --> 00:16:48,630 S1: one shot deal. It is a daily. And it very 333 00:16:48,630 --> 00:16:50,550 S1: often means doing what I don't want to do. But 334 00:16:50,550 --> 00:16:52,310 S1: then that doesn't that put me in good company because 335 00:16:52,310 --> 00:16:55,109 S1: here's Jesus in the garden and he says, if it's possible, 336 00:16:55,310 --> 00:16:57,430 S1: let this cup pass from me. So taking up your 337 00:16:57,430 --> 00:16:59,470 S1: cross is not an easy choice for any of us. 338 00:16:59,470 --> 00:17:03,350 S1: But in obedience Jesus said yes. So when suffering comes 339 00:17:03,350 --> 00:17:07,110 S1: into our life is part of taking up our cross saying, yes, Lord, 340 00:17:07,109 --> 00:17:09,470 S1: even if the circumstances aren't the ones we want to 341 00:17:09,510 --> 00:17:13,030 S1: find ourselves in. How does God use suffering for our good? 342 00:17:13,030 --> 00:17:16,350 S1: It's the book that Clay and Jean Jones have co-authored together. 343 00:17:16,630 --> 00:17:18,390 S1: It's one of the best I've read in a long time, 344 00:17:18,390 --> 00:17:20,070 S1: by the way, on the subject of suffering. So I 345 00:17:20,070 --> 00:17:22,430 S1: really commend it to you and Jean. When we come back, 346 00:17:22,670 --> 00:17:24,790 S1: I'm at a statement at the beginning. It's not if, 347 00:17:24,790 --> 00:17:28,150 S1: but when. Let's talk about that idea that everybody's going 348 00:17:28,190 --> 00:17:30,310 S1: to go through suffering more with Clay and Jean Jones 349 00:17:30,310 --> 00:17:49,090 S1: right after this. Clay and Gene Jones are with us. 350 00:17:49,090 --> 00:17:52,290 S1: They are both involved in apologetics and administering together have 351 00:17:52,290 --> 00:17:55,450 S1: written the book How Does God Use Suffering for Our Good? 352 00:17:55,450 --> 00:17:58,490 S1: It's a wonderful book, and there are seven key truths 353 00:17:58,490 --> 00:18:01,570 S1: that Clay and Gene addressed throughout the book. The first one, obviously, 354 00:18:01,570 --> 00:18:03,689 S1: is that God loves us. That's paramount for us to 355 00:18:03,690 --> 00:18:06,050 S1: understand that he's not the God who is not there. 356 00:18:06,050 --> 00:18:07,770 S1: He's not a distant God. So when you're in the 357 00:18:07,770 --> 00:18:11,050 S1: midst of your trials and tribulations, he is fully aware, 358 00:18:11,090 --> 00:18:14,409 S1: keenly aware of what you're going through. And even under 359 00:18:14,410 --> 00:18:18,090 S1: the sovereignty of who he is, allows that in our life. Now, 360 00:18:18,090 --> 00:18:20,850 S1: it's tough because you think, why would God allow fill 361 00:18:20,850 --> 00:18:23,490 S1: in the blank, the cancer diagnosis, the job, the loss 362 00:18:23,490 --> 00:18:25,450 S1: of a child, fill in the blank? Why would God 363 00:18:25,450 --> 00:18:28,090 S1: do that? Well, again, it goes back to understanding who 364 00:18:28,130 --> 00:18:30,770 S1: the character and the nature of God is. Jean. The 365 00:18:30,770 --> 00:18:33,090 S1: second truth is everybody is going to go through this, 366 00:18:33,130 --> 00:18:35,950 S1: you know, if you start looking up the scriptures, there's 367 00:18:35,950 --> 00:18:38,590 S1: just an abundance of these. Even Jesus himself tells us 368 00:18:38,590 --> 00:18:42,390 S1: point blank in this life you will not. Maybe will. 369 00:18:42,390 --> 00:18:46,990 S1: That's a direct, absolute corollary. You will have tribulation. So 370 00:18:46,990 --> 00:18:49,189 S1: it's going to happen. But there are people out there, 371 00:18:49,230 --> 00:18:52,990 S1: even in the church, unfortunately, who think they can sidestep this. 372 00:18:52,990 --> 00:18:55,790 S1: Talk to me about the reality of trials. We are. 373 00:18:55,830 --> 00:18:57,510 S1: This is not as good as it gets. By the way, 374 00:18:57,510 --> 00:18:58,590 S1: we should point that out. 375 00:18:59,109 --> 00:19:03,070 S6: No kidding. When I was in my early 20s, I, uh, 376 00:19:03,070 --> 00:19:08,150 S6: had a second trimester miscarriage and my feelings were kind 377 00:19:08,190 --> 00:19:10,510 S6: of bottled up and locked up towards God, but I 378 00:19:10,510 --> 00:19:13,070 S6: was I felt like, yeah, I'm trusting God. I know 379 00:19:13,070 --> 00:19:15,550 S6: he's going to work this for good, but, you know, 380 00:19:15,590 --> 00:19:18,869 S6: I'm fine, I'm fine. But all my feelings were like 381 00:19:18,910 --> 00:19:22,550 S6: I was an emotional blank towards God. Uh, and I 382 00:19:22,550 --> 00:19:25,869 S6: was getting angry very easily at people. And one day 383 00:19:25,910 --> 00:19:29,270 S6: I awoke from a nap and I saw that a 384 00:19:29,270 --> 00:19:33,810 S6: houseguest had moved my get well card, and I grabbed 385 00:19:33,810 --> 00:19:36,650 S6: it and put it where I was, where I wanted it, 386 00:19:36,650 --> 00:19:38,810 S6: and I was like, why are you moving my things? 387 00:19:38,810 --> 00:19:40,810 S6: And I realized, oh my gosh, I was so glad 388 00:19:40,810 --> 00:19:44,770 S6: she wasn't there to hear that outburst. But I also thought, 389 00:19:44,770 --> 00:19:46,890 S6: you know what? I'm beginning to think I might be 390 00:19:46,890 --> 00:19:50,970 S6: angry at God because I'm getting angry at little tiny things. 391 00:19:51,210 --> 00:19:54,290 S6: So I went for a walk and I said, God, 392 00:19:54,290 --> 00:19:58,050 S6: I need to tell you something. I think I might 393 00:19:58,050 --> 00:20:02,010 S6: be angry at you over the miscarriage. And at that, 394 00:20:02,010 --> 00:20:06,209 S6: all this anger just started bundling up and coming out. 395 00:20:06,450 --> 00:20:09,530 S6: And I said, God, I am angry at you. And 396 00:20:09,530 --> 00:20:13,090 S6: I gave all the reasons, one after another, why I 397 00:20:13,090 --> 00:20:15,730 S6: thought he shouldn't have allowed me to have the second 398 00:20:16,050 --> 00:20:21,170 S6: trimester miscarriage. Um, including things like people in our church 399 00:20:21,210 --> 00:20:24,290 S6: were were saying, you know, oh, it's because you had 400 00:20:24,290 --> 00:20:28,050 S6: a lack of faith and, uh, I wouldn't be able 401 00:20:28,050 --> 00:20:32,230 S6: to enjoy a future pregnancy. This was actually my second miscarriage, 402 00:20:32,230 --> 00:20:35,670 S6: as well as being in the second trimester. And then all, 403 00:20:35,910 --> 00:20:39,230 S6: all of a sudden I said, everyone else can have children, 404 00:20:39,230 --> 00:20:44,830 S6: why can't I? And immediately I knew two things. One, 405 00:20:44,830 --> 00:20:49,990 S6: I had felt entitled to have children. And that's just 406 00:20:49,990 --> 00:20:54,070 S6: not true. I'm not entitled to have anything, only what 407 00:20:54,109 --> 00:20:59,550 S6: God deems best for me. And two, the statement wasn't true. 408 00:20:59,550 --> 00:21:01,670 S6: There are lots of people. There are even women in 409 00:21:01,670 --> 00:21:04,750 S6: the Bible who couldn't have children. And I knew people, 410 00:21:05,350 --> 00:21:08,830 S6: women who not only didn't have children, they didn't have husbands. 411 00:21:08,830 --> 00:21:12,950 S6: And I had a wonderful husband. So stopping and thinking 412 00:21:12,950 --> 00:21:15,990 S6: like that and realizing, you know what? Everybody has to 413 00:21:16,030 --> 00:21:18,830 S6: go through this. They have to go through some kind 414 00:21:18,830 --> 00:21:22,590 S6: of suffering. And this was my type of suffering. But 415 00:21:22,590 --> 00:21:25,870 S6: everybody has to go through some kind of suffering really 416 00:21:25,869 --> 00:21:30,010 S6: helped me. It made me come to the realization that, okay, 417 00:21:30,250 --> 00:21:33,970 S6: I'm not, you know, some special person that I can 418 00:21:33,970 --> 00:21:38,850 S6: be entitled to have this trouble free life. Instead, I'm 419 00:21:38,890 --> 00:21:41,170 S6: going to go through suffering and I have to go 420 00:21:41,170 --> 00:21:46,730 S6: through this with God. I ended up having five miscarriages altogether, 421 00:21:47,050 --> 00:21:49,890 S6: after which my gynecologist told me I'd never be able 422 00:21:49,890 --> 00:21:54,330 S6: to have children. And so I prayed again and just 423 00:21:54,369 --> 00:21:58,649 S6: asked God, you know what? What is it? What's the 424 00:21:58,650 --> 00:22:01,889 S6: reason why you say that? You will give us the 425 00:22:01,890 --> 00:22:05,530 S6: desires of our heart, but you're not giving me this 426 00:22:05,530 --> 00:22:10,250 S6: really big desire. And I felt in my heart an 427 00:22:10,250 --> 00:22:14,170 S6: answer of what is your biggest desire? And I said, Lord, 428 00:22:14,210 --> 00:22:16,449 S6: my biggest desire is to walk with you and to 429 00:22:16,490 --> 00:22:20,330 S6: be like you. And at that moment, I realized all 430 00:22:20,369 --> 00:22:25,090 S6: of our desires are conflicting. Sometimes one has to go 431 00:22:25,130 --> 00:22:27,790 S6: in order for another to be met. And if God 432 00:22:27,790 --> 00:22:31,230 S6: thought in his great wisdom that this is what I 433 00:22:31,230 --> 00:22:33,710 S6: needed in order to be like him and to truly 434 00:22:33,710 --> 00:22:37,629 S6: love him, then that was going to be fine. So, Janet, 435 00:22:37,630 --> 00:22:40,470 S6: I did one more thing. I'm a visual person like you, 436 00:22:40,910 --> 00:22:44,389 S6: and I like to picture my prayers often, and I 437 00:22:44,390 --> 00:22:47,870 S6: figure God can see the pictures that I, I'm, I'm praying. 438 00:22:47,869 --> 00:22:51,189 S6: And so I said, um, I pictured in my mind 439 00:22:51,230 --> 00:22:53,350 S6: a hill with a cross at the foot of it, 440 00:22:53,510 --> 00:22:56,510 S6: and I picture taking all my questions and pain and 441 00:22:56,510 --> 00:22:59,790 S6: putting them in a box, wrapping the box with pale 442 00:22:59,830 --> 00:23:03,830 S6: green wrapping paper, tying it with gold cord and and 443 00:23:03,830 --> 00:23:05,989 S6: taking it over and putting it at the foot of 444 00:23:05,990 --> 00:23:08,429 S6: the cross. And I said, God, I pictured this in 445 00:23:08,430 --> 00:23:12,830 S6: my mind. I said, God, this is my gift to you. I, 446 00:23:13,070 --> 00:23:16,750 S6: I don't know if you'll ever tell me why you 447 00:23:16,790 --> 00:23:20,790 S6: wanted this for me. And maybe, you know, I'll find 448 00:23:20,790 --> 00:23:23,709 S6: out in heaven or something. But I'm giving this to 449 00:23:23,750 --> 00:23:27,730 S6: you as a gift, and I'm going to love you 450 00:23:27,730 --> 00:23:30,690 S6: and serve you no matter what. And this is my 451 00:23:30,730 --> 00:23:33,410 S6: gift to you. And every time I hurt, every time 452 00:23:33,410 --> 00:23:36,770 S6: a friend announced their pregnancy or I was invited to 453 00:23:36,810 --> 00:23:41,450 S6: a baby shower, I pictured that very picture again the 454 00:23:41,490 --> 00:23:44,050 S6: gift at the bottom of the cross. And I said, God, 455 00:23:44,050 --> 00:23:47,970 S6: this is my gift to you. Realizing that everyone has 456 00:23:47,970 --> 00:23:51,770 S6: to go through this is the key to not being entitled, 457 00:23:51,970 --> 00:23:53,450 S6: which makes us bitter. 458 00:23:53,890 --> 00:23:54,330 S3: Yeah. 459 00:23:55,010 --> 00:23:57,330 S1: So many things, Jean. When I come back, just a 460 00:23:57,330 --> 00:24:00,050 S1: quick word about getting mad at God. This this picks 461 00:24:00,050 --> 00:24:01,810 S1: up on something that Clay said where he thought he 462 00:24:01,810 --> 00:24:04,330 S1: had committed an unpardonable sin. I think a lot of 463 00:24:04,330 --> 00:24:06,290 S1: believers think that if we get mad at God, that 464 00:24:06,290 --> 00:24:08,449 S1: one blast of his nostrils, and then we're going to 465 00:24:08,450 --> 00:24:10,729 S1: be turned into an ink spot. So talk to me 466 00:24:10,730 --> 00:24:13,409 S1: about whether or not it's okay for us to go 467 00:24:13,410 --> 00:24:15,330 S1: to the Lord with our pain, to cry out and 468 00:24:15,330 --> 00:24:18,370 S1: to say, I'm hurt, I'm angry, I'm mad. The other thing, too, 469 00:24:18,410 --> 00:24:20,530 S1: for me when you were talking is I don't. Here's 470 00:24:20,530 --> 00:24:24,210 S1: my visual picture. Nothing ever happens to me in the 471 00:24:24,270 --> 00:24:27,750 S1: area of suffering that wasn't first vetted in the throne 472 00:24:27,750 --> 00:24:30,990 S1: room of heaven. If it got God's approval, God's permission, 473 00:24:30,990 --> 00:24:33,709 S1: then he'll give me the ability to endure back after this. 474 00:24:51,830 --> 00:24:54,190 S1: We live in complicated times and in the market. We're 475 00:24:54,190 --> 00:24:57,870 S1: helping you interpret complex cultural issues through the lens of Scripture. 476 00:24:57,910 --> 00:25:00,070 S1: Our team of partial partners is growing, and to say 477 00:25:00,070 --> 00:25:03,310 S1: thank you, they receive exclusive information from me. In fact, 478 00:25:03,310 --> 00:25:05,949 S1: I talked to you directly from my personal computer to 479 00:25:05,990 --> 00:25:08,630 S1: yours by email. Become a partial partner today and you'll 480 00:25:08,630 --> 00:25:12,910 S1: receive these exclusive benefits. Call 877 Janet 58 or go 481 00:25:12,910 --> 00:25:18,190 S1: online to in the market with Janet Parshall. Clay and 482 00:25:18,190 --> 00:25:20,310 S1: Jean Jones are our guests. They are a husband and 483 00:25:20,310 --> 00:25:23,370 S1: wife who've co-authored a wonderful book on a very tough topic. 484 00:25:23,369 --> 00:25:25,930 S1: It's about suffering. And their book is called How Does 485 00:25:25,930 --> 00:25:29,010 S1: God Use Suffering for Our Good? Living with hope while 486 00:25:29,010 --> 00:25:31,490 S1: making Sense of life. Jean, let me return back to 487 00:25:31,490 --> 00:25:33,490 S1: you just real quick before I go to another truth 488 00:25:33,490 --> 00:25:35,770 S1: that I'd like to ask you, Clay, about. You know, 489 00:25:35,810 --> 00:25:40,050 S1: this idea that somehow we can't take the paradoxes. God 490 00:25:40,050 --> 00:25:42,570 S1: already knows whether it comes out of our mouth or not. 491 00:25:42,609 --> 00:25:45,010 S1: Man looketh on the outward appearance. God looks on the heart. 492 00:25:45,130 --> 00:25:47,730 S1: So if we've got those pains, if we're angry at God, 493 00:25:47,730 --> 00:25:50,010 S1: if we're confused, if we're mad, isn't it better to 494 00:25:50,050 --> 00:25:53,050 S1: just go to our father because we've been given immediate 495 00:25:53,050 --> 00:25:55,649 S1: access to the throne of grace, and just lay that 496 00:25:55,650 --> 00:25:57,690 S1: all at his feet? I know he's a holy God, 497 00:25:57,690 --> 00:25:59,290 S1: but he's also our ABBA Father. 498 00:26:00,010 --> 00:26:03,570 S6: Absolutely. In fact, the Book of Psalms is our prayer book. 499 00:26:03,609 --> 00:26:06,690 S6: It teaches us how to pray, and the Psalms are 500 00:26:06,730 --> 00:26:10,970 S6: exceedingly honest. They teach us to pray very honestly by 501 00:26:10,970 --> 00:26:13,810 S6: looking at what's inside our heart and spilling it out 502 00:26:13,810 --> 00:26:17,689 S6: before the Lord. One of my favorite psalms is Psalm 73, 503 00:26:18,050 --> 00:26:22,150 S6: in Psalm 73, which I call the problem of evil Psalm. 504 00:26:22,950 --> 00:26:27,670 S6: The priest Asaph has been had been struggling. He describes 505 00:26:27,670 --> 00:26:30,990 S6: how his feet had almost slipped because he looked at 506 00:26:30,990 --> 00:26:34,030 S6: the the evil people around him, and they had better 507 00:26:34,030 --> 00:26:37,110 S6: health than than he had. They were stronger than he was. 508 00:26:37,310 --> 00:26:40,830 S6: They were richer than he was. People respected them and 509 00:26:40,830 --> 00:26:44,030 S6: listened to them more than they respected and listened to him. 510 00:26:44,030 --> 00:26:47,950 S6: And he was mad. And so he decided to take 511 00:26:47,950 --> 00:26:50,790 S6: this before the Lord and find out what it was 512 00:26:50,950 --> 00:26:53,710 S6: that God was doing with this. And so he goes 513 00:26:53,710 --> 00:26:57,150 S6: into the sanctuary, and he lays this before the Lord, 514 00:26:57,150 --> 00:27:01,790 S6: and he all of a sudden realizes, oh, I'm forgetting 515 00:27:01,790 --> 00:27:07,149 S6: about eternity. And he realizes, hey, the wicked are going 516 00:27:07,150 --> 00:27:11,590 S6: to perish in the end. But God is doing something. 517 00:27:11,590 --> 00:27:15,590 S6: In fact, he says this. He says, I am continually 518 00:27:15,590 --> 00:27:18,550 S6: with you. You hold my right hand. You guide me 519 00:27:18,550 --> 00:27:23,090 S6: with your counsel, and afterward you will receive me to glory. 520 00:27:23,130 --> 00:27:27,010 S6: All of a sudden, things made sense. He realized that, okay, God, 521 00:27:27,210 --> 00:27:30,290 S6: you kept me from slipping when I was envious of 522 00:27:30,290 --> 00:27:33,010 S6: the wicked. You held my hand and got me on 523 00:27:33,010 --> 00:27:35,730 S6: the right path. And you did it because you're changing 524 00:27:35,730 --> 00:27:39,090 S6: my character and because you're going to take me to 525 00:27:39,130 --> 00:27:43,810 S6: glory forever. Mm. That's. That's the important thing. And so 526 00:27:43,850 --> 00:27:49,650 S6: here we have the psalmist prayed honestly, and that's the, the, um, uh, 527 00:27:51,090 --> 00:27:55,250 S6: teaching that the, the Book of Psalms gives us. Pray honestly, 528 00:27:55,250 --> 00:27:58,450 S6: no matter what's there, and listen to what God is 529 00:27:58,450 --> 00:28:01,330 S6: trying to tell you. Because like you just said, Janet, 530 00:28:01,410 --> 00:28:06,250 S6: when we're fooling ourselves, we're only fooling ourselves. We're not fooling. 531 00:28:06,290 --> 00:28:07,170 S6: Fooling God. 532 00:28:07,609 --> 00:28:11,370 S1: Exactly. So important. You know, I'm trying not to do 533 00:28:11,369 --> 00:28:13,330 S1: this in a chronological order, but the way you wrote 534 00:28:13,330 --> 00:28:16,650 S1: the book is just systematically, beautifully laid out. So we 535 00:28:16,650 --> 00:28:18,910 S1: start with the idea that God loves us. We recognize 536 00:28:18,910 --> 00:28:20,189 S1: the fact that all of us are going to go 537 00:28:20,190 --> 00:28:23,229 S1: through tribulation. And then, Clay, I'm glad that your next 538 00:28:23,230 --> 00:28:26,629 S1: truth is splintered into two parts, because, you know, bad 539 00:28:26,630 --> 00:28:30,590 S1: theology hurts people. So here's this verse, Romans, Romans 828. 540 00:28:30,590 --> 00:28:32,670 S1: We know that all things work together for good for 541 00:28:32,670 --> 00:28:34,909 S1: those who love him and are called according to his purpose. 542 00:28:34,910 --> 00:28:37,310 S1: And we really gravitate to the part that says all 543 00:28:37,310 --> 00:28:40,470 S1: things work together for good. Ipso facto, it's all going 544 00:28:40,510 --> 00:28:43,510 S1: to be just fine the way I define it, not 545 00:28:43,550 --> 00:28:45,950 S1: how God defines good. So break this down for us, 546 00:28:45,950 --> 00:28:49,190 S1: because this is a misunderstood verse that will leave us 547 00:28:49,190 --> 00:28:52,470 S1: disappointed if we don't understand the rich theology inherent in 548 00:28:52,510 --> 00:28:53,190 S1: that verse. 549 00:28:53,870 --> 00:28:56,990 S5: Yes, so, so true. And one of the big problems 550 00:28:56,990 --> 00:29:00,270 S5: that we have is when it comes to working things 551 00:29:00,270 --> 00:29:02,670 S5: out for our good. And I've had people when I've 552 00:29:02,670 --> 00:29:06,750 S5: spoken to groups, I've had people get very angry with 553 00:29:06,750 --> 00:29:09,430 S5: me about what I'm about, what I'm going to say. 554 00:29:09,430 --> 00:29:13,790 S5: And that is God did not come. Jesus did not 555 00:29:13,790 --> 00:29:18,410 S5: die on the cross to give you an improved Lifestyle. Uh. 556 00:29:18,410 --> 00:29:21,410 S5: He came. He died on the cross to give you 557 00:29:21,410 --> 00:29:24,890 S5: forgiveness of your sins. You can be in relationship with 558 00:29:24,890 --> 00:29:27,489 S5: the father. You can have eternal life. That's why he 559 00:29:27,490 --> 00:29:29,450 S5: died on the cross. He didn't die on the cross 560 00:29:29,450 --> 00:29:32,250 S5: to give us an improved lifestyle. And people have gotten 561 00:29:32,250 --> 00:29:35,290 S5: really angry with me and said, yes, yes, he did. 562 00:29:35,530 --> 00:29:38,490 S5: And but then I just come back and say, so, uh, 563 00:29:38,490 --> 00:29:43,050 S5: a muslim who becomes a Christian in Afghanistan and they, uh, 564 00:29:43,370 --> 00:29:45,810 S5: abduct his daughter and gang rape her and force her 565 00:29:45,810 --> 00:29:48,450 S5: to sign a confession to Islam. And then you have 566 00:29:48,450 --> 00:29:50,570 S5: to spend you and your wife have to spend the 567 00:29:50,570 --> 00:29:53,690 S5: rest of your lives running away, hiding so that they 568 00:29:53,690 --> 00:29:56,650 S5: don't set you on fire. That's not an improved lifestyle. 569 00:29:56,650 --> 00:29:57,010 S1: Exactly. 570 00:29:57,050 --> 00:30:00,250 S5: The Lord does not promise us an improved lifestyle, but 571 00:30:00,250 --> 00:30:03,170 S5: he promises us to work things out for our good, 572 00:30:03,170 --> 00:30:05,970 S5: to make things. But see, the good part is he's 573 00:30:05,970 --> 00:30:09,810 S5: making us more like him. And people go, and I 574 00:30:09,810 --> 00:30:12,250 S5: think sometimes in our when we're really young Christians, you go, 575 00:30:12,290 --> 00:30:14,450 S5: I'm not sure I want to be more like him. Well, 576 00:30:14,450 --> 00:30:16,630 S5: you know what? If you're going to be a Christian? 577 00:30:16,670 --> 00:30:20,510 S5: He's intent on making you more like him. That's it 578 00:30:20,510 --> 00:30:23,390 S5: says in Romans five, when we rejoice in our suffering 579 00:30:23,390 --> 00:30:28,870 S5: because suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character 580 00:30:28,870 --> 00:30:32,790 S5: produces hope. And by the way, I know objectively the 581 00:30:32,790 --> 00:30:37,350 S5: Christianity is true because Jesus really was raised from the dead. Subjectively, 582 00:30:37,350 --> 00:30:40,150 S5: the biggest way I know Christianity is true is when 583 00:30:40,150 --> 00:30:42,070 S5: he takes me through suffering and I come out on 584 00:30:42,070 --> 00:30:44,390 S5: the other side and I say, you know, I'm actually 585 00:30:44,390 --> 00:30:47,310 S5: a more godly person. I'm more like Jesus than I 586 00:30:47,310 --> 00:30:50,070 S5: used to be. And I see other fruits that he's 587 00:30:50,070 --> 00:30:53,430 S5: worked out to, you know, I mean, like I mentioned earlier, 588 00:30:53,470 --> 00:30:55,630 S5: that I was able to discipline my mind and I 589 00:30:55,670 --> 00:30:59,070 S5: could start to control my thoughts. Those were all good things. 590 00:30:59,070 --> 00:31:02,710 S5: And it makes me subjectively know Christianity is true. 591 00:31:02,910 --> 00:31:05,270 S1: Yeah. Amen to that. Let me go back to your 592 00:31:05,270 --> 00:31:08,510 S1: reference to Romans five three through five, because I memorized 593 00:31:08,510 --> 00:31:10,990 S1: this verse in the middle of one of my many 594 00:31:10,990 --> 00:31:15,930 S1: trials about suffering produces perseverance, perseverance, character, character, hope and 595 00:31:15,930 --> 00:31:18,250 S1: hope never fails. In other words, I love the fact 596 00:31:18,250 --> 00:31:22,250 S1: that there's order and purpose and form in God's allowance 597 00:31:22,250 --> 00:31:24,450 S1: of suffering for my life, that again, it is to 598 00:31:24,490 --> 00:31:26,610 S1: our benefit. But I was thinking what you said at 599 00:31:26,610 --> 00:31:28,570 S1: the very beginning, Clay, when I asked you and you 600 00:31:28,610 --> 00:31:31,730 S1: very clearly and rightfully said, we're not in the word. 601 00:31:31,770 --> 00:31:34,050 S1: I mean, you can go to Doctor Barna's research at 602 00:31:34,050 --> 00:31:37,250 S1: the Cultural Research Center at Arizona Christian University, and it's 603 00:31:37,250 --> 00:31:39,290 S1: a preponderance of evidence that we're not in the word. 604 00:31:39,730 --> 00:31:42,090 S1: I mean, if 45% of people who profess to be 605 00:31:42,090 --> 00:31:44,250 S1: born again Christians think that Jesus made a mistake, we 606 00:31:44,250 --> 00:31:46,250 S1: don't have a clue who Jesus is. And if you 607 00:31:46,250 --> 00:31:48,170 S1: don't know who Jesus is, you're certainly not going to 608 00:31:48,170 --> 00:31:50,810 S1: understand where suffering fits into his world. And you're certainly 609 00:31:50,810 --> 00:31:53,810 S1: not in the world to know how you can persevere 610 00:31:53,970 --> 00:31:56,410 S1: in the midst of suffering. So there's a connection here. 611 00:31:56,410 --> 00:32:01,010 S1: So you've had this. Oh, not a marathon, not a yes. 612 00:32:01,010 --> 00:32:02,530 S1: It's not a it is a marathon. It's not a 613 00:32:02,530 --> 00:32:06,490 S1: 50 yard dash. This marathon of cancer in your life. 614 00:32:06,490 --> 00:32:11,330 S1: How do you do that? How do you produce perseverance, perseverance, character, character, hope. 615 00:32:11,370 --> 00:32:13,270 S1: And you recognize that hope never fails. 616 00:32:14,110 --> 00:32:17,790 S5: Well, you know the suffering that we have. It's it's 617 00:32:17,790 --> 00:32:20,350 S5: a weird. It's an interesting question, Janet. And the thing 618 00:32:20,350 --> 00:32:23,510 S5: that's so interesting about it is, uh, if you're going 619 00:32:23,510 --> 00:32:26,790 S5: to be a Christian, you have no choice. There's no option. 620 00:32:26,790 --> 00:32:28,350 S5: It's not like, you know, Lord, I'm going to opt 621 00:32:28,350 --> 00:32:29,150 S5: out of the suffering. 622 00:32:29,350 --> 00:32:29,750 S1: Exactly. 623 00:32:29,790 --> 00:32:33,670 S5: There's no there's no opting out. And so I. And 624 00:32:33,710 --> 00:32:36,830 S5: so he brings me, you know, through these periods of 625 00:32:36,830 --> 00:32:40,070 S5: suffering and having to deal with cancer. Just ten weeks ago, 626 00:32:40,070 --> 00:32:42,910 S5: by the way, I had open heart surgery. Uh, and 627 00:32:42,910 --> 00:32:46,750 S5: so but God uses these things to make us more 628 00:32:46,750 --> 00:32:51,030 S5: like him. And I can see that happening in my life. 629 00:32:51,270 --> 00:32:54,190 S5: And Gene has seen that happening in her life where 630 00:32:54,190 --> 00:32:56,350 S5: it's like, you know, we're more Christ like than we 631 00:32:56,350 --> 00:32:58,750 S5: used to be. And a lot of times there's other, 632 00:32:58,910 --> 00:33:01,229 S5: you know, huge benefits too. But the biggest one is 633 00:33:01,270 --> 00:33:04,990 S5: we're becoming more Christ like, and that's eternally valuable. He's 634 00:33:04,990 --> 00:33:07,950 S5: making us because he intends for us to reign over 635 00:33:07,950 --> 00:33:12,450 S5: his universe, uh, over his creation. Revelation 22 five says, 636 00:33:12,450 --> 00:33:15,209 S5: and they will reign forever and ever. He's intending to 637 00:33:15,210 --> 00:33:18,450 S5: make you into something great, and you may not like 638 00:33:18,450 --> 00:33:22,010 S5: the process, but that's that's so. Well, too bad, because 639 00:33:22,050 --> 00:33:25,010 S5: he's going to make you into something better than you are. 640 00:33:25,170 --> 00:33:25,770 S7: Mhm. 641 00:33:26,130 --> 00:33:28,770 S1: You know, I tell you we always have people that 642 00:33:28,770 --> 00:33:30,890 S1: we think, oh boy you can see Jesus so clearly 643 00:33:30,890 --> 00:33:34,690 S1: in them. My friend Johnny Erickson taught a quadriplegic in 644 00:33:34,690 --> 00:33:37,730 S1: a wheelchair for 50 plus years unremitting pain which you 645 00:33:37,730 --> 00:33:40,490 S1: would think that if you're suffering from paralysis you wouldn't 646 00:33:40,490 --> 00:33:43,570 S1: have it. No, it is unromantic remitting and it is constant. 647 00:33:43,570 --> 00:33:46,210 S1: And then she gets a diagnosis for breast cancer. So 648 00:33:46,210 --> 00:33:48,890 S1: what is Johnny's response when she gets it? She said 649 00:33:48,890 --> 00:33:51,850 S1: when the doctors use the word, the first prayer bullet 650 00:33:51,890 --> 00:33:54,210 S1: out of her heart was, okay, Lord, what do you 651 00:33:54,210 --> 00:33:56,770 S1: want to teach me this time? And I thought, that's it. 652 00:33:57,050 --> 00:33:59,290 S1: When you get to that point where you can say cancer, 653 00:33:59,290 --> 00:34:01,410 S1: and now the sweat breaks out and you're afraid and 654 00:34:01,410 --> 00:34:03,450 S1: the myriad of thoughts goes through, how much time do 655 00:34:03,450 --> 00:34:04,930 S1: I have? What treatments do I have to do? Is 656 00:34:04,930 --> 00:34:08,689 S1: this going to take my life, etc. her first words were, okay, Lord, 657 00:34:08,690 --> 00:34:10,640 S1: what do you want to teach me this time, but 658 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:15,040 S1: that just that doesn't happen automatically. That happens, I think, 659 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,120 S1: through trusting over and over and over again and maybe, 660 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:20,239 S1: maybe Clay, a word about that, that you don't go 661 00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:22,520 S1: from 0 to 100 in terms of trust when God 662 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,680 S1: puts you through trials. I've observed my the intensity of 663 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,239 S1: the trials tend to increase, and I see that as 664 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,040 S1: God's love and mercy, because I couldn't handle trial five 665 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:33,120 S1: if I didn't get through trial one first. 666 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,160 S5: Yeah, absolutely. You know, by the way, speaking of Johnny, uh, 667 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,520 S5: so I'm 22 years ago, I had a six hour 668 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,799 S5: surgery where they removed my tailbone and and the bone 669 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,400 S5: above that and half the bone above that from cancer. Anyway, 670 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,120 S5: I'm lying in the hospital bed. I did not know 671 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:53,160 S5: what kind of cancer I had. They said it's possible 672 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:55,600 S5: that you have a deadly cancer, that you're going to 673 00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:59,759 S5: be gone. We'll take it out. We'll know for sure. Anyway, uh, 674 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,160 S5: I'm lying there in the hospital bed and I'm thinking, man, 675 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,040 S5: if they take much more of my spine, I'm not 676 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,840 S5: going to be able to walk. I'll be a paraplegic. Uh, 677 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:09,500 S5: and they said, and you know, we're going to pull 678 00:35:09,500 --> 00:35:11,860 S5: the catheter. This is after six days in the hospital. 679 00:35:11,900 --> 00:35:14,259 S5: And and I'm going to be blunt, I think you'll 680 00:35:14,260 --> 00:35:16,299 S5: be okay with it. And they said, we'll see if 681 00:35:16,300 --> 00:35:20,500 S5: you can pee. Uh, and, uh, I'm sitting there going. 682 00:35:20,540 --> 00:35:22,299 S5: And if you can't, then you may have to be 683 00:35:22,340 --> 00:35:24,460 S5: catheterized for weeks or. 684 00:35:24,460 --> 00:35:24,780 S1: Months. 685 00:35:24,780 --> 00:35:27,340 S5: Or for life. And I'm thinking, oh, this is bad. 686 00:35:27,380 --> 00:35:30,100 S5: But as I'm lying there, I thought of Johnny and 687 00:35:30,100 --> 00:35:33,140 S5: I thought, you know what? Johnny has gone through a 688 00:35:33,140 --> 00:35:38,300 S5: tremendous amount of suffering as a quadriplegic, and she is honored. God. 689 00:35:38,340 --> 00:35:40,259 S5: And I was talking to the Lord, actually, and I said, 690 00:35:40,260 --> 00:35:43,180 S5: she's honored you through it, father. And if she can 691 00:35:43,180 --> 00:35:45,620 S5: do it, I can do it. And if I end 692 00:35:45,660 --> 00:35:48,379 S5: up being a quadriplegic or paraplegic, or if I end 693 00:35:48,420 --> 00:35:52,300 S5: up dying from this, I'm going to honor you through it. 694 00:35:52,460 --> 00:35:55,060 S5: And at that moment, I knew that I defeated Satan 695 00:35:55,060 --> 00:35:57,180 S5: in the heavenly realms. You know that I had said, 696 00:35:57,219 --> 00:35:59,300 S5: you know what? We can honor God through suffering. 697 00:35:59,340 --> 00:36:01,819 S1: Yeah. You know, I have to tell you, I just 698 00:36:01,820 --> 00:36:03,779 S1: love it when I make Satan mad, I just do. 699 00:36:03,820 --> 00:36:05,779 S1: Maybe it's because my dad was a football coach, and 700 00:36:05,780 --> 00:36:08,120 S1: I see it as sort of a an athletic thing 701 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:09,719 S1: to be able to say, okay, Lord, we're going to 702 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:11,920 S1: kick him to the curb. And when you were talking 703 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,200 S1: about that in the moment of a trial to start 704 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:16,600 S1: saying back to him the promises that he's made to us, 705 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:18,759 S1: when I am weak, I am strong, I can do 706 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,440 S1: all things through Christ who strengthens me. He will supply 707 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,640 S1: all my needs according to his riches in glory through 708 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:26,359 S1: Christ Jesus. I just think that makes Satan wither. And 709 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:28,120 S1: I don't know about you, but I love to go 710 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:30,440 S1: after him on a regular basis through the power of 711 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,000 S1: God's Word. Clay and Jeanne Jones are with us. It's 712 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:35,480 S1: a wonderful and important book on the topic of suffering 713 00:36:35,480 --> 00:37:01,399 S1: back after this. Clay and Jeanne Jones are with us. 714 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,040 S1: They have co-authored as husband and Wife, a book on 715 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:07,260 S1: suffering entitled How Does God use suffering for our good? 716 00:37:07,260 --> 00:37:10,140 S1: Living with hope while Making Sense of life? And by 717 00:37:10,140 --> 00:37:12,339 S1: the way, on our information page I have a link 718 00:37:12,340 --> 00:37:15,819 S1: to both of their websites one website Clay Jones dot net. 719 00:37:15,820 --> 00:37:17,460 S1: You can get more information there, but I do have 720 00:37:17,460 --> 00:37:19,180 S1: a click to the book. And let me just give 721 00:37:19,180 --> 00:37:22,380 S1: you a fair warning. There are seven key truths that 722 00:37:22,380 --> 00:37:23,860 S1: they address in the book, and I haven't gotten to 723 00:37:23,860 --> 00:37:24,980 S1: all of them. And you want to know what? In 724 00:37:24,980 --> 00:37:27,700 S1: full disclosure, I'm glad because I want you to get 725 00:37:27,700 --> 00:37:29,340 S1: the book and I want you to read the rest, 726 00:37:29,340 --> 00:37:31,620 S1: because let's go back to one of the truths we're 727 00:37:31,620 --> 00:37:35,259 S1: all going to suffer. You're either about to step into it. 728 00:37:35,260 --> 00:37:37,580 S1: You join me today in the midst of a trial 729 00:37:37,580 --> 00:37:40,020 S1: or you've just walked out. So either way, let's get 730 00:37:40,060 --> 00:37:43,620 S1: God's perspective on this. It is for our good. Don't 731 00:37:43,620 --> 00:37:45,540 S1: believe what the word tells you because the world is 732 00:37:45,540 --> 00:37:51,380 S1: all about self-exaltation self comfort, self gratification. We are foreigners. Okay, 733 00:37:51,420 --> 00:37:53,380 S1: this is a whole different perspective on life out here. 734 00:37:53,380 --> 00:37:54,580 S1: And I don't know about you, but I love a 735 00:37:54,580 --> 00:37:56,900 S1: good challenge. So Clay, let me go to this idea 736 00:37:56,900 --> 00:37:59,020 S1: that we don't know what tomorrow holds. I think the 737 00:37:59,020 --> 00:38:01,859 S1: thing about suffering to one of the benefits, anyway, is 738 00:38:01,860 --> 00:38:05,359 S1: that it's a really good reminder that this is temporal. 739 00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:08,319 S1: What we see is temporary. The Bible says what we 740 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:12,520 S1: don't see is eternal. So suffering reminds us that this 741 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:15,040 S1: doesn't go on forever and ever. This is going to stop. 742 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:17,160 S1: The day is going to come where there will be 743 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:19,919 S1: no more suffering anymore. So it's a way of being 744 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:22,520 S1: able to cope that it's going to get better. And 745 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,080 S1: as I said earlier, this is not as good as 746 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,719 S1: it gets. So how do we keep that perspective that 747 00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:30,040 S1: we really don't know what tomorrow holds? Even though Jesus 748 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:33,680 S1: tells us in plain language, don't worry about tomorrow. But 749 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:35,920 S1: boy do we ever and we. 750 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,160 S5: And the answer is we have to learn to discipline 751 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:43,200 S5: our minds. You have to learn to rein in your brain. 752 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:49,719 S5: And suffering helps us learn to rein in our brain. Uh, and, and, uh, 753 00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:53,200 S5: you know, Paul says, as you know, take every thought captive. Well, 754 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:55,720 S5: how do you do that? I'll tell you, uh, as 755 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:59,319 S5: suffering starts teaching you to go. You know what? I've 756 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,740 S5: got to control my thoughts here. And as Mark Twain 757 00:39:02,780 --> 00:39:04,379 S5: put it. He says, you know, he says, I've gone 758 00:39:04,380 --> 00:39:07,100 S5: through had many troubles in my life, most of which 759 00:39:07,100 --> 00:39:10,739 S5: never happened. And that's so true, right? Because we can 760 00:39:10,739 --> 00:39:12,900 S5: worry so much about what if this happens or what 761 00:39:12,940 --> 00:39:15,580 S5: if that happens, or. Oh, no, this could be so bad. 762 00:39:15,620 --> 00:39:19,340 S5: And and we can worry about those things. And Jesus 763 00:39:19,340 --> 00:39:23,500 S5: said to worry about just today. Do you not worry 764 00:39:23,500 --> 00:39:25,540 S5: about tomorrow? You don't know what a day's going to 765 00:39:25,540 --> 00:39:29,060 S5: bring forth. And but see, that takes discipline. And where 766 00:39:29,060 --> 00:39:31,620 S5: do you learn discipline. Where do you learn that kind 767 00:39:31,620 --> 00:39:35,660 S5: of character? Well, suffering produces perseverance, and perseverance produces character, 768 00:39:35,660 --> 00:39:39,500 S5: and character produces hope. And we won't be disappointed by 769 00:39:39,500 --> 00:39:41,140 S5: our eternal hope either. 770 00:39:41,500 --> 00:39:44,819 S1: Yeah, 100%. So, Jean, and I'm so glad Clay, you 771 00:39:44,820 --> 00:39:47,820 S1: referenced that verse because it really is mind control. Okay. 772 00:39:47,820 --> 00:39:49,419 S1: If I can use the phrase that way. I love 773 00:39:49,420 --> 00:39:52,620 S1: the way scripture over and over and over again gives 774 00:39:52,620 --> 00:39:55,100 S1: us instructions on how to control our thought life. And 775 00:39:55,100 --> 00:39:57,219 S1: by the way, reminds us always that it is a 776 00:39:57,219 --> 00:40:00,180 S1: heart and a mind situation. When we come to faith 777 00:40:00,180 --> 00:40:03,879 S1: in Christ. Heart transformed, mind renewed. And we're supposed to 778 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:05,960 S1: renew our minds on a regular basis. So give me 779 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:08,359 S1: some pragmatics, Jean. How does one learn how to take 780 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:09,320 S1: thoughts captive? 781 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:13,400 S6: Oh, that's another great question. One of the things that 782 00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:16,600 S6: we both do, uh, in order to keep our, our 783 00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:20,600 S6: thoughts captive, is we create what we call a truth journal. 784 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:25,240 S6: The first time that Clay had cancer 23 years ago. Um, 785 00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:28,640 S6: I put together a more elaborate truth journal than I 786 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:32,600 S6: had had previously. And this contains different things. Number one, 787 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:36,240 S6: it contains a list of truths, such as the seven 788 00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:38,879 S6: truths that we put into the book, and then any 789 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,360 S6: other truths from Scripture that pertain to whatever the current 790 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:46,960 S6: problem is. Uh, secondly, it contains a list of of helpful, 791 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:50,120 S6: encouraging scriptures, things that I want to read over, over 792 00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:54,200 S6: and over again when I'm struggling. Uh, another section and 793 00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:58,800 S6: this one is so important is a remembrances, a list 794 00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:03,739 S6: of past times when we suffered and saw God work good. 795 00:41:03,940 --> 00:41:07,339 S6: So we have how we suffered and what God did 796 00:41:07,340 --> 00:41:10,379 S6: to work good through that. Because when I read back 797 00:41:10,380 --> 00:41:15,140 S6: through that list, it reminds me of God's good care 798 00:41:15,140 --> 00:41:17,900 S6: and gives me hope. And this is another thing that 799 00:41:17,900 --> 00:41:20,820 S6: the psalmist tell us to do over and over again. 800 00:41:20,860 --> 00:41:25,180 S6: Psalm 71, for instance. Uh, we see the psalmist in 801 00:41:25,180 --> 00:41:28,740 S6: a dire straits, thinking he may be dying. And first, 802 00:41:28,780 --> 00:41:31,219 S6: the first thing that he does after calling out to 803 00:41:31,260 --> 00:41:34,700 S6: the Lord is go back and remember what it is 804 00:41:34,700 --> 00:41:38,380 S6: God has done for him before, because that gives him 805 00:41:38,380 --> 00:41:42,779 S6: continual hope. So we have a page of remembrances, and 806 00:41:42,780 --> 00:41:47,500 S6: then I in mine. I also have, um, some prayers 807 00:41:47,500 --> 00:41:50,300 S6: written out based on the Psalms. And then we both 808 00:41:50,300 --> 00:41:53,859 S6: also keep track of our prayer requests and how God 809 00:41:53,860 --> 00:41:58,140 S6: is answering them. Those things together whenever I'm having a 810 00:41:58,140 --> 00:42:03,720 S6: a tough day or, uh, you know, the anxiety about 811 00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:07,280 S6: tomorrow might start coming at me. I can get that out. 812 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:11,680 S6: I can read it through. Remember what the truths are. 813 00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:14,520 S6: And I'm going to find the truth, the verse or 814 00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:17,680 S6: the remembrance that's going to answer what is calling me 815 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:19,160 S6: to be anxious right now? 816 00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:19,960 S7: Yeah. 817 00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:24,080 S1: What a brilliant idea. Again, also that just seeing God's 818 00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,240 S1: faithfulness over and over and over again how he answered 819 00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:29,040 S1: your prayers as well. I think that's marvelous. Uh, one 820 00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:30,880 S1: of the sections. I love the entire book, but I 821 00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:33,719 S1: love the way you end it with frequently asked questions. 822 00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:36,120 S1: And they're very important questions. And one of them and, Clay, 823 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:38,200 S1: let me ask you this, if I may, uh, you know, 824 00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:40,160 S1: we read the Book of Job. There's some not so 825 00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:42,560 S1: good counselors in there. Okay. I don't want to say 826 00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:46,200 S1: the wrong thing. When somebody's suffering, give us some godly counsel. 827 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:48,000 S1: What do we do when we have someone we know 828 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:49,840 S1: and love? You know, trials are. I've said this to 829 00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:52,200 S1: my husband a thousand times. Love is support. So thankfully 830 00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:55,160 S1: he's been there. Sometimes the trials are double for both 831 00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:56,759 S1: Craig and me at the same time, going through the 832 00:42:56,820 --> 00:43:00,500 S1: same trials. Sometimes they're highly individualistic. And then he can 833 00:43:00,500 --> 00:43:02,380 S1: be in a companion, but he's not going through the 834 00:43:02,380 --> 00:43:04,900 S1: same trial that I'm going through, and vice versa. So 835 00:43:04,900 --> 00:43:07,739 S1: how do we learn to be the right kind of 836 00:43:07,739 --> 00:43:09,900 S1: encourager when somebody is in the midst of a trial? 837 00:43:10,820 --> 00:43:12,939 S5: Well, one of the biggest things, as you know, is 838 00:43:12,940 --> 00:43:16,860 S5: the Scripture says, weep with those who weep. If somebody 839 00:43:16,860 --> 00:43:18,899 S5: came to me and they just lost a child, or 840 00:43:18,900 --> 00:43:21,660 S5: they they've lost a spouse or they've had found out 841 00:43:21,660 --> 00:43:24,819 S5: they have cancer or whatever, I don't explain to them 842 00:43:24,820 --> 00:43:28,020 S5: the larger secrets of the universe or, or explain even 843 00:43:28,020 --> 00:43:31,780 S5: the principles in the book. I weep with those who weep, 844 00:43:31,780 --> 00:43:34,700 S5: and that's what we do. As time goes on, people 845 00:43:34,700 --> 00:43:37,140 S5: then go, okay, now why is God doing this? Then 846 00:43:37,140 --> 00:43:39,700 S5: I will explain. But at first they need to be loved. 847 00:43:39,900 --> 00:43:42,779 S5: Maybe bring them some meals, take care of them in 848 00:43:42,820 --> 00:43:45,340 S5: that kind of way. That's what we need to start with. 849 00:43:45,380 --> 00:43:48,180 S5: Always when somebody has just suffered a major loss. 850 00:43:48,340 --> 00:43:48,700 S7: Wow. 851 00:43:49,340 --> 00:43:51,780 S1: If I can, I've got about 30s talk to me 852 00:43:51,780 --> 00:43:54,500 S1: about the fact that this is temporal, that we are 853 00:43:54,500 --> 00:43:57,439 S1: heaven bound and it will be our glorious inheritance that's 854 00:43:57,440 --> 00:43:59,040 S1: got to help us to endure suffering. 855 00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:03,040 S5: That's right. If eternity is true, and it is, Jesus 856 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:06,880 S5: really was raised from the dead. Eternity will dwarf our 857 00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:11,719 S5: suffering to insignificance. Thus the passage in Corinthians. This slight 858 00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:15,839 S5: momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of 859 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:19,160 S5: glory beyond all comparison. And that's our ultimate hope. 860 00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:22,160 S1: Excellent. And you write about that weight of glory in 861 00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:25,120 S1: the book as well. Hat tip to C.S. Lewis. Thank 862 00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:27,759 S1: you so much for an excellent conversation. There is so 863 00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:30,560 S1: much more on the topic of suffering, but I love 864 00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:32,799 S1: the way you challenge us to get it right vertically 865 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,880 S1: before we get it right horizontally. And it starts with him. 866 00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:38,440 S1: The book again is called How Does God Use Suffering 867 00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:41,480 S1: for Our Good? It's written by Clay and Gene Jones, 868 00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:43,640 S1: who have been our guest this hour. Please, I encourage 869 00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:45,799 S1: every single person within the sound of my voice to 870 00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:49,240 S1: get it, because trials are for all of us. Thank you, Jones's, 871 00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:51,600 S1: for great conversation. We'll see you next time. Friends on 872 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:53,239 S1: In the Market with Janet Parshall.