WEBVTT - Wired for Intercession 

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<v Speaker 1>Well, good morning and welcome.

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<v Speaker 2>We're continuing this little series of discussions called Wired.

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<v Speaker 1>Why are you the way you are? How did you

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<v Speaker 1>get to be who you are?

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<v Speaker 2>And we talked last week about the fact that there

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<v Speaker 2>are theories. One of those theories dates as far back

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<v Speaker 2>as Aristotle. That suggests that you're a blank page. and

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<v Speaker 2>your environment writes on you, how you are raised as

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<v Speaker 2>a child, your early life experiences, that starts to define

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<v Speaker 2>why you are the way you are. Over against that

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<v Speaker 2>is an idea that dates all the way back to Plato,

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<v Speaker 2>and that is that you are who you are, that

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<v Speaker 2>you are born with hard wiring, and that's kind of

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<v Speaker 2>how you're made, and there's not a lot you can

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<v Speaker 2>do about it. Probably modern psychology and certainly the biblical

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<v Speaker 2>image would be that it's probably a little bit of both,

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<v Speaker 2>that you definitely are born with some hardwiring and some personality.

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<v Speaker 2>But there's also room for growth and change and nurture

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<v Speaker 2>does matter. And life experiences do shape how we think

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<v Speaker 2>and how we function and what happens in our personalities.

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<v Speaker 2>And so we're talking in this little series called Wired

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<v Speaker 2>about how you're wired and maybe how to think about

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<v Speaker 2>that and grow and improve.

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<v Speaker 1>In a lot of ways.

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<v Speaker 2>And so today we're thinking about this reality, and that

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<v Speaker 2>is that you and I are wired for intercession. We're

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<v Speaker 2>wired to have someone intercede for us, and we're wired

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<v Speaker 2>to have someone to intercede for. So hear me out

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<v Speaker 2>on this. So I have this experience and been having

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<v Speaker 2>this experience for quite some time. It's not one of

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<v Speaker 2>my favorite experiences, but it is one that I have

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<v Speaker 2>become accustomed to. And that is for the last 20 years,

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<v Speaker 2>this church has partnered in mission partnerships around the world.

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<v Speaker 2>For 10 years, we partnered in Bolivia, took teams there,

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<v Speaker 2>built some churches there, had some additional projects there. And

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<v Speaker 2>then in the last 10 years, we have been partnering

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<v Speaker 2>in Africa on the southern tip of Africa in the

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<v Speaker 2>country of Eswatini. Just finished up our 10th year of

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<v Speaker 2>partnership and now renewing that partnership, hoping and planning for

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<v Speaker 2>another 10 years of partnership there. And in both places,

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<v Speaker 2>as the honored guest, I am always on the agenda

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<v Speaker 2>to speak. And of course, what that means in Bolivia

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<v Speaker 2>is that everything is getting better. translated into Spanish. And

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<v Speaker 2>then also often in Bolivia, it's getting translated into the

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<v Speaker 2>local Indian.

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<v Speaker 1>Dialect, Cachua.

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<v Speaker 2>And so it's kind of a cumbersome process. And I

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<v Speaker 2>always wonder, wouldn't they be better off to just have

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<v Speaker 2>one of their own people speak? You know, the pace

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<v Speaker 2>of the Spanish is quite a lot faster than I talk.

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<v Speaker 2>And then in Africa, you know, I have an interpreter

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<v Speaker 2>that I've been privileged to work with now for 10 years.

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<v Speaker 2>And he makes himself available, travels with us, and helps

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<v Speaker 2>us get to the places we need to get to.

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<v Speaker 2>And so we've kind of developed a bit of a rhythm.

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<v Speaker 2>But I got to be honest with you, I'm a

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<v Speaker 2>little insecure about the whole process. And again, in Swaziland...

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<v Speaker 2>The pastors there, the speakers there are pretty dynamic, a

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<v Speaker 2>little more demonstrative than I am. I'm much more of

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<v Speaker 2>a conversational kind of speaker when I speak on the

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<v Speaker 2>weekends here at Montrose Church. It's pretty conversational. As I talk,

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<v Speaker 2>some things will hit me that I think are funny.

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<v Speaker 2>And I then will, you know, allow myself to tell

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<v Speaker 2>a joke or two or digress into a conversation. And

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<v Speaker 2>folks around here are gracious. They tend to find it

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<v Speaker 2>funny or at least laugh at the jokes. But when

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<v Speaker 2>I'm in Africa, I don't know the culture well enough

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<v Speaker 2>to make those digressions. And so I'm just kind of

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<v Speaker 2>a boring conversational speaker there. And I've made an agreement

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<v Speaker 2>with Tondo. Tondo is my interpreter and the pastor of

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<v Speaker 2>one of our churches there. And I've said to him,

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<v Speaker 2>if you can find a way to make the sermon better,

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<v Speaker 2>it is go ahead. And when I say it, you

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<v Speaker 2>just fix it. And so there are pieces of this

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<v Speaker 2>process that are pretty intimidating, pretty awkward for me. One

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<v Speaker 2>of those awkward moments is when I say a long

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<v Speaker 2>phrase or sentences.

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<v Speaker 1>And then the interpretation is one or two words.

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<v Speaker 2>That's awkward, because then I wonder, you know, what were

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<v Speaker 2>all the superfluous words that I use that You know,

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<v Speaker 2>all of them could be reduced down to just a couple.

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<v Speaker 2>And then sometimes the opposite happens, and that's also awkward.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's when I say a few words, and then

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<v Speaker 2>the interpretation is many words. So clearly I'm not speaking clearly.

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<v Speaker 2>Whatever I'm saying needs a lot of explanation. And so

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<v Speaker 2>that's intimidating. And, you know, you're trying to focus and

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<v Speaker 2>talk and not think about the interpretation. But it's it's

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<v Speaker 2>there and it's awkward. But by far, the most awkward

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<v Speaker 2>moment is when I'm speaking nonsense. And I mean, literally,

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<v Speaker 2>I say something and Tondo will look at me and say, what?

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<v Speaker 2>I don't I don't understand that. And so then I'll

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<v Speaker 2>say it a different way and he'll say, no, I

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<v Speaker 2>still don't get it. And then I'll say it a

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<v Speaker 2>different way. And finally, he'll go, oh, OK, that's intimidating.

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<v Speaker 2>I thought I was making perfect sense. And yet a

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<v Speaker 2>couple of iterations to finally get to a point that

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<v Speaker 2>we're making some sense. And I want to remind you

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<v Speaker 2>of this, because this adds to the layer of awkwardness.

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<v Speaker 2>And that is that about 90% of the people who

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<v Speaker 2>are listening are fluent in Suswati, certainly, but they're also.

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<v Speaker 1>Fluent in English.

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<v Speaker 2>So they are hearing both my lame attempts to communicate

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<v Speaker 2>And Tondo's interpretations of what I'm saying, and they can

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<v Speaker 2>compare them right side by side, and they must just

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<v Speaker 2>smile and say, bless his heart. That's what we say

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<v Speaker 2>in Texas when people are kind of struggling.

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<v Speaker 1>Interpretation.

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<v Speaker 2>In many ways, that experience is kind of what is

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<v Speaker 2>going on when we think about our relationship with God,

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<v Speaker 2>at least the biblical story says so. If you look

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<v Speaker 2>up intercessor... In the Merriam-Webster Library, you'll get a very

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<v Speaker 2>unsatisfying definition. It says, one who intercedes, a mediator. That's

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<v Speaker 2>not very insightful. Sue Mills gives us a little broader explanation,

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<v Speaker 2>particularly of the biblical idea. An intercessor, she says, prays

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<v Speaker 2>on behalf of others. The word intercede means to go between. Thus,

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<v Speaker 2>an intercessor is a mediator, meeting with God. requesting for

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<v Speaker 2>the release of God's desires, praying for the breaking of

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<v Speaker 2>the works of the evil one. The needs of others

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<v Speaker 2>take preference over personal needs. Our great example of the

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<v Speaker 2>ultimate intercessor is Jesus, she says. And so the biblical

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<v Speaker 2>story is that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are our

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<v Speaker 2>intercessors to the Father, that Jesus and the Holy Spirit

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<v Speaker 2>speak to the Father in on our behalf. They take

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<v Speaker 2>our words and our thoughts and our prayers, and they

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<v Speaker 2>speak them in fresh ways and clarifying ways. They interpret

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<v Speaker 2>them to the Father on our behalf.

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<v Speaker 1>They speak for us. They clarify things.

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<v Speaker 2>And Paul is taking that whole idea to a whole

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<v Speaker 2>different level in.

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<v Speaker 1>The letter to the church at Rome. And so that's

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<v Speaker 1>kind of what we're thinking about.

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<v Speaker 2>To get sort of set for what he's going to

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<v Speaker 2>write in chapter 8, You kind of have to get

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<v Speaker 2>a sense of his worldview. He has a fairly primal worldview,

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<v Speaker 2>meaning it's very basic. And he goes back to the

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<v Speaker 2>understanding that God created the world and he created the

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<v Speaker 2>world to operate in a very specific way. And if

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<v Speaker 2>you go back and read the book of Genesis, God

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<v Speaker 2>created human beings in his image. And then he created

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<v Speaker 2>this world. And he intended for the human beings to

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<v Speaker 2>live in the world in obedience to God's directions and instructions.

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<v Speaker 2>That they were going to live out what God has

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<v Speaker 2>asked them to do, not only in relationship to their

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<v Speaker 2>own conduct, but also in relationship to being a steward

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<v Speaker 2>over the world, to taking stewardship for all of God's

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<v Speaker 2>other creation.

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<v Speaker 1>And if you read, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>Basically the story and the account in Genesis, God is

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<v Speaker 2>asking the people to be obedient, to do what they

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<v Speaker 2>need to do, to follow along, don't eat of the

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<v Speaker 2>fruit of the tree, of.

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<v Speaker 1>The knowledge of good and evil, all of that.

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<v Speaker 2>And then take care of creation, name the animals, care

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<v Speaker 2>for the planet, take care of nature, be a steward

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<v Speaker 2>of everything that goes on. And so that was the plan.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's how Paul sees the world, that he still

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<v Speaker 2>thinks that's the very primal way in which we're invited

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<v Speaker 2>to live and that we ought to live, that we're

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<v Speaker 2>to love God and do things the way he has

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<v Speaker 2>asked us to do. And then to love others as

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<v Speaker 2>a part of creation. Other human beings are honored. In fact,

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<v Speaker 2>we're told to love them as we love ourselves. And

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<v Speaker 2>to take care of all of creation, the animals, the plants,

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<v Speaker 2>the environment, all of that stuff comes into his understanding

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<v Speaker 2>of how the world is supposed to work. And yet

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<v Speaker 2>it's not working very well. And it's not working very

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<v Speaker 2>well because we have a tendency to not want to

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<v Speaker 2>do things the way God has invited us to do them.

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<v Speaker 1>We like to go independent. We like to do them

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<v Speaker 1>our own way.

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<v Speaker 2>And we like to exploit other people. Historically, I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>saying you like to exploit other people, but historically, Human

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<v Speaker 2>beings exploit other human beings for their own selfish development,

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<v Speaker 2>their own selfish advancement. And we also exploit the environment

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<v Speaker 2>for our own selfish means and all of that. And

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<v Speaker 2>so that's a part of this conversation. It's a part

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<v Speaker 2>of what Paul is thinking about when he's writing it,

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<v Speaker 2>when he's thinking about it.

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<v Speaker 3>It.

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<v Speaker 2>Just because we don't live up to it doesn't mean

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<v Speaker 2>that God is going to change the plan. When we

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<v Speaker 2>come back from break, we'll talk about how that works.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll be right back. Welcome back.

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<v Speaker 2>You're listening to Healing Conversations on KABC 790.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Dave Roberts.

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<v Speaker 2>We're talking about what it means to be wired for intercession.

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<v Speaker 2>And so Paul has this primal view of what it

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<v Speaker 2>looks like.

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<v Speaker 1>N.T.

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<v Speaker 2>Wright talks about the fact that Israel didn't live up

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<v Speaker 2>to the primal plan that God had, the covenant plan,

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<v Speaker 2>but God didn't change the plan. He just sent an

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<v Speaker 2>Israelite to live in the plan perfectly.

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<v Speaker 1>And that was Christ.

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<v Speaker 2>And so he continues to ask us to seek after

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<v Speaker 2>that plan. return to the basic way of living. So

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<v Speaker 2>now listen to what Paul writes in Romans 8, 18,

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<v Speaker 2>and think about all of that that we've just talked about.

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<v Speaker 2>I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing

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<v Speaker 2>with the glory that will be revealed in us. For

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<v Speaker 2>the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of

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<v Speaker 2>God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration,

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<v Speaker 2>not by its own choice. but by the will of

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<v Speaker 2>the one who subjected it in hope that the creation

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<v Speaker 2>itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and

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<v Speaker 2>brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

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<v Speaker 2>We know that the whole creation has been groaning as

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<v Speaker 2>in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

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<v Speaker 2>Not only so, but we ourselves who have the first

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<v Speaker 2>fruits of the spirit grown inwardly as we wait eagerly

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<v Speaker 2>for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.

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<v Speaker 2>For in this hope we were saved, but hope that

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<v Speaker 2>is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for

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<v Speaker 2>what they already have? But if we hope for what

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<v Speaker 2>we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

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<v Speaker 2>In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness.

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<v Speaker 2>We don't know what we ought to pray for, but

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<v Speaker 2>the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. And

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<v Speaker 2>he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit.

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<v Speaker 2>Because the Spirit intercedes for God's people in accordance with.

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<v Speaker 1>The will of God.

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<v Speaker 2>And we know that in all things, God works for

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<v Speaker 2>the good of those who love him, who have been

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<v Speaker 2>called according to his purpose. So we think about this.

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<v Speaker 2>God is the searcher of hearts. He's looking around for

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<v Speaker 2>what's going on inside of us. And a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>us think that maybe what God.

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<v Speaker 1>Is searching for is our mistakes, our failures, our secrets, right?

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<v Speaker 2>But the passage suggests that what God is really looking

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<v Speaker 2>for are the groanings that are going on inside of

0:12:35.050 --> 0:12:35.630
<v Speaker 2>our hearts.

0:12:36.710 --> 0:12:37.790
<v Speaker 1>That the Holy.

0:12:37.650 --> 0:12:40.390
<v Speaker 2>Spirit is looking to find what's going on in there.

0:12:40.470 --> 0:12:43.040
<v Speaker 2>What is the ache? What is the longing? What is

0:12:43.179 --> 0:12:47.260
<v Speaker 2>the groaning? And he searches to see if we are

0:12:47.380 --> 0:12:50.850
<v Speaker 2>too weary with how the world works. if we're starting

0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:53.410
<v Speaker 2>to get worn out with the things that don't work,

0:12:53.470 --> 0:12:55.510
<v Speaker 2>if we're starting to get worn out with our own

0:12:55.590 --> 0:12:59.210
<v Speaker 2>weaknesses and our own brokenness, and if we're longing, if

0:12:59.230 --> 0:13:05.350
<v Speaker 2>we're groaning for something better. And so that's the idea

0:13:05.429 --> 0:13:09.569
<v Speaker 2>that then the searcher of hearts searches for people who

0:13:09.650 --> 0:13:13.429
<v Speaker 2>long for a restoration to be of a different part.

0:13:14.110 --> 0:13:17.290
<v Speaker 2>And a piece of the process and the decay and

0:13:17.330 --> 0:13:19.250
<v Speaker 2>what's going on in the world is to get us

0:13:19.710 --> 0:13:23.310
<v Speaker 2>ready for something better, to cause us to move forward,

0:13:23.530 --> 0:13:25.460
<v Speaker 2>to think I'm not doing that or living that way.

0:13:25.480 --> 0:13:27.880
<v Speaker 2>I want to get back to doing it the right way.

0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:31.780
<v Speaker 2>I want to heal what's broken. And so Paul then,

0:13:32.020 --> 0:13:37.550
<v Speaker 2>out of this passage, articulates several realities to highlight. One

0:13:37.630 --> 0:13:40.170
<v Speaker 2>is to just think about the fact that we have

0:13:40.850 --> 0:13:44.109
<v Speaker 2>an interpreter here. that takes what's going on inside of

0:13:44.270 --> 0:13:48.390
<v Speaker 2>us and interprets it, pulls all the pieces together and

0:13:48.510 --> 0:13:52.060
<v Speaker 2>speaks to the Father on our behalf. We're wired for

0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:52.740
<v Speaker 2>that kind of help.

0:13:52.780 --> 0:13:55.620
<v Speaker 1>We need it. We're not adequate in and of ourselves.

0:13:56.559 --> 0:13:59.760
<v Speaker 2>The whole premise of the 12-step programs is to admit

0:14:00.230 --> 0:14:02.630
<v Speaker 2>in the first step that I am powerless to do

0:14:02.750 --> 0:14:03.710
<v Speaker 2>what needs to be done.

0:14:03.790 --> 0:14:06.550
<v Speaker 1>I need a higher power. I need some intercession. I

0:14:06.570 --> 0:14:08.670
<v Speaker 1>need some help along the way.

0:14:09.410 --> 0:14:14.170
<v Speaker 2>And Paul is speaking into that reality. And then speaking

0:14:14.210 --> 0:14:16.450
<v Speaker 2>into the fact that as God intercedes for us, we're

0:14:16.490 --> 0:14:21.830
<v Speaker 2>invited to intercede for the people around us to help, support, care,

0:14:22.070 --> 0:14:25.100
<v Speaker 2>love for the people. So here's a few things to

0:14:25.130 --> 0:14:28.180
<v Speaker 2>think about. Six things that I think need our attention

0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:32.300
<v Speaker 2>based on what Paul's teaching here. Number one, intercessors live

0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:35.360
<v Speaker 2>in the not yet. He says, I consider that our

0:14:35.420 --> 0:14:38.640
<v Speaker 2>present sufferings are not worth what's coming. And that's just

0:14:38.710 --> 0:14:44.490
<v Speaker 2>a way of saying, listen, I want to be optimistic

0:14:45.010 --> 0:14:46.390
<v Speaker 2>about what the future looks like.

0:14:46.790 --> 0:14:47.930
<v Speaker 1>I don't want to constantly.

0:14:47.630 --> 0:14:50.420
<v Speaker 2>Walk around and weigh everything in my life based on

0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:53.180
<v Speaker 2>what's happening today and how hard it is and how

0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:56.500
<v Speaker 2>difficult life seems and all of that. I want instead

0:14:56.620 --> 0:14:59.820
<v Speaker 2>very much to enter into a space in which I

0:14:59.900 --> 0:15:02.790
<v Speaker 2>am anticipating. Not everything is fixed. Not everything is as

0:15:02.850 --> 0:15:05.840
<v Speaker 2>God intends. The world is still full of brokenness. There's

0:15:05.860 --> 0:15:09.080
<v Speaker 2>still lots of things that happen. There's still an inexplicable

0:15:09.180 --> 0:15:12.180
<v Speaker 2>suffering in the world. And so my attitude towards that,

0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:13.820
<v Speaker 2>I don't know how to explain it all. I don't

0:15:13.860 --> 0:15:17.010
<v Speaker 2>know how to explain why loving God allows a lot

0:15:17.050 --> 0:15:19.430
<v Speaker 2>of things in our world to happen. But I know

0:15:19.470 --> 0:15:21.830
<v Speaker 2>that a part of what is going on is it's

0:15:21.870 --> 0:15:26.350
<v Speaker 2>just not yet. It's just not yet. We're still anticipating

0:15:26.410 --> 0:15:28.960
<v Speaker 2>and waiting for something better. We don't give up. We

0:15:28.980 --> 0:15:31.520
<v Speaker 2>don't quit. We don't curse God. We don't give up

0:15:31.600 --> 0:15:34.580
<v Speaker 2>on faith. We just say, well, It's not fixed yet.

0:15:35.130 --> 0:15:38.280
<v Speaker 2>It's just not where it's going to be. Number two,

0:15:39.500 --> 0:15:44.880
<v Speaker 2>intercessors understand decay. The whole creation, Paul says, was subjected

0:15:44.920 --> 0:15:47.500
<v Speaker 2>to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the

0:15:47.540 --> 0:15:49.480
<v Speaker 2>will of the one who subjected it in the hope

0:15:49.540 --> 0:15:52.040
<v Speaker 2>that the creation would finally be sick and tired of

0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:54.620
<v Speaker 2>the selfishness of doing it our own way and be

0:15:54.680 --> 0:15:57.440
<v Speaker 2>ready to come back to a place of admitting that

0:15:57.480 --> 0:15:58.860
<v Speaker 2>maybe God knows better.

0:15:58.980 --> 0:15:59.400
<v Speaker 1>Don't have to.

0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:07.030
<v Speaker 2>Believe this, just how Paul is articulating the argument. should

0:16:07.090 --> 0:16:10.590
<v Speaker 2>not be afraid of the decay, of the pain that

0:16:10.650 --> 0:16:13.050
<v Speaker 2>is going on in the world. We all try to

0:16:13.130 --> 0:16:17.050
<v Speaker 2>avoid pain. We all try to avoid uncomfortable situations. We

0:16:17.130 --> 0:16:20.060
<v Speaker 2>all try to shy away from things that are hard

0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:23.860
<v Speaker 2>for us. But the fact of the matter is to

0:16:23.900 --> 0:16:26.460
<v Speaker 2>be an intercessor means we go to the points of pain.

0:16:27.500 --> 0:16:29.550
<v Speaker 2>And we don't try to pacify them away. We don't

0:16:29.590 --> 0:16:31.970
<v Speaker 2>try to say to people, well, you should be over

0:16:32.010 --> 0:16:35.230
<v Speaker 2>that by now. We don't try to say to people, oh,

0:16:35.270 --> 0:16:38.730
<v Speaker 2>don't worry. God's using all this for your good. There

0:16:38.770 --> 0:16:41.510
<v Speaker 2>are some things in life that are no good. The

0:16:41.550 --> 0:16:44.930
<v Speaker 2>death of loved ones, some of the things that go

0:16:45.030 --> 0:16:47.210
<v Speaker 2>on in the world, some of the things that go

0:16:47.290 --> 0:16:49.910
<v Speaker 2>on in the world and are attributed to God. Some

0:16:49.930 --> 0:16:53.960
<v Speaker 2>things are just not good. And intercessors understand pain and

0:16:54.040 --> 0:16:57.800
<v Speaker 2>suffering and decay. And we can sit with people in

0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:02.360
<v Speaker 2>places of pain. We can sit with people in places

0:17:02.460 --> 0:17:05.560
<v Speaker 2>that lack explanation. We can sit in places and not

0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:09.340
<v Speaker 2>try to put platitudes or band-aids over it. Just sit

0:17:09.380 --> 0:17:11.480
<v Speaker 2>in space and go, this is wrong. This is not

0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:13.679
<v Speaker 2>how it should be. And I can sit in this

0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:16.530
<v Speaker 2>space with you and walk with you through this part

0:17:16.730 --> 0:17:22.770
<v Speaker 2>of your life. Number three, intercessors choose anticipation. We know

0:17:22.790 --> 0:17:25.500
<v Speaker 2>that the whole creation has been groaning, but but it's

0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:28.610
<v Speaker 2>the pains of childbirth. And not only so, but we

0:17:28.660 --> 0:17:30.869
<v Speaker 2>ourselves who have the first fruits of the Spirit, we

0:17:30.910 --> 0:17:33.450
<v Speaker 2>who are our believers, who've committed to this way of life,

0:17:33.510 --> 0:17:36.290
<v Speaker 2>we've grown too. We're not happy with the way it's

0:17:36.330 --> 0:17:38.450
<v Speaker 2>all going. We're not happy with how our own lives

0:17:38.490 --> 0:17:41.330
<v Speaker 2>are going. We see the mess. We see the suffering.

0:17:41.869 --> 0:17:44.490
<v Speaker 2>But we approach it in a different way. Let me

0:17:44.590 --> 0:17:48.580
<v Speaker 2>ask you this. When your kids are around, when your

0:17:48.619 --> 0:17:51.840
<v Speaker 2>grandkids are around, when your family's around, when your friends

0:17:51.900 --> 0:17:55.590
<v Speaker 2>are around, Do they get a sense of doom out

0:17:55.609 --> 0:17:59.930
<v Speaker 2>of how you talk? Intercessors are full of anticipation. There's

0:17:59.970 --> 0:18:04.429
<v Speaker 2>a better thing. Childbirth is painful, I understand, but it's

0:18:04.470 --> 0:18:08.440
<v Speaker 2>a kind of pain that's anticipating some great deliverance, some

0:18:08.560 --> 0:18:11.980
<v Speaker 2>great thing at the end of this pain that makes

0:18:12.060 --> 0:18:16.359
<v Speaker 2>the pain worth the process. Is that how you see life?

0:18:16.420 --> 0:18:18.560
<v Speaker 2>Is that what comes out of your mouth? In order

0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:22.130
<v Speaker 2>to intercede, for others to bring hope into the world,

0:18:22.170 --> 0:18:23.320
<v Speaker 2>to make the world a better place.

0:18:24.100 --> 0:18:25.080
<v Speaker 1>We are people.

0:18:24.859 --> 0:18:30.520
<v Speaker 2>Who see anticipation instead of doom and gloom and all

0:18:30.560 --> 0:18:35.140
<v Speaker 2>those other things. Number four, intercessors emote hope. In this

0:18:35.260 --> 0:18:37.800
<v Speaker 2>hope we were saved, but hope that's seen is no

0:18:37.900 --> 0:18:38.419
<v Speaker 2>hope at all.

0:18:38.480 --> 0:18:40.070
<v Speaker 1>Who hopes for what they already have?

0:18:40.090 --> 0:18:44.030
<v Speaker 2>This is a worldview that's rooted in the deep biblical

0:18:44.330 --> 0:18:48.540
<v Speaker 2>teaching of that we are patiently waiting for God to

0:18:48.619 --> 0:18:52.550
<v Speaker 2>bring about a better plan, how he intended the world

0:18:52.590 --> 0:18:55.970
<v Speaker 2>to work. He wants us to finally get over our

0:18:56.050 --> 0:18:59.270
<v Speaker 2>selfishness and get over trying to be independent and doing

0:18:59.330 --> 0:19:02.869
<v Speaker 2>things our own way. He taught us to pray, our

0:19:02.930 --> 0:19:05.629
<v Speaker 2>Father who art in heaven, hallowed be your name, your

0:19:05.690 --> 0:19:09.409
<v Speaker 2>kingdom come, your will be done on earth. And he's

0:19:09.450 --> 0:19:13.500
<v Speaker 2>waiting for us to get there. He's waiting for us

0:19:13.660 --> 0:19:15.419
<v Speaker 2>to come to that place where we've tried it all

0:19:15.440 --> 0:19:16.940
<v Speaker 2>and done it all and done it on our own

0:19:17.010 --> 0:19:20.010
<v Speaker 2>and done our best to build systems and governments and

0:19:20.050 --> 0:19:21.690
<v Speaker 2>all the things that are supposed to take care of

0:19:21.750 --> 0:19:23.970
<v Speaker 2>life and people and be loving and bring us together

0:19:23.990 --> 0:19:25.570
<v Speaker 2>and create unity and compassion.

0:19:26.470 --> 0:19:31.070
<v Speaker 1>And so we're hopeful. We're hopeful. We don't see life

0:19:31.190 --> 0:19:32.570
<v Speaker 1>as dwindling.

0:19:32.050 --> 0:19:35.629
<v Speaker 2>Down, but we see that there is great hope to

0:19:35.670 --> 0:19:41.389
<v Speaker 2>be had. And then finally, you know, intercessors embrace the groaning.

0:19:42.570 --> 0:19:44.990
<v Speaker 2>We're told that the Holy Spirit groans on our behalf

0:19:45.150 --> 0:19:48.770
<v Speaker 2>and interprets our own groanings. I think sometimes we don't

0:19:48.830 --> 0:19:52.169
<v Speaker 2>know what... to say or how to say it or

0:19:52.230 --> 0:19:54.770
<v Speaker 2>how it all fits together. And I think we feel

0:19:54.790 --> 0:19:57.310
<v Speaker 2>like we have to analytically have all the right words

0:19:57.650 --> 0:20:00.260
<v Speaker 2>to explain to God or others what we need or

0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:03.840
<v Speaker 2>what's going on or figure it out or find a solution.

0:20:03.859 --> 0:20:06.640
<v Speaker 2>And what Paul's suggesting is, no, you don't.

0:20:07.180 --> 0:20:07.859
<v Speaker 1>You can groan.

0:20:08.800 --> 0:20:13.419
<v Speaker 2>Sometimes the deepest form of prayer, the deepest form of

0:20:14.060 --> 0:20:16.880
<v Speaker 2>searching for where God is in the process is just groaning.

0:20:18.080 --> 0:20:21.000
<v Speaker 2>This isn't working. This isn't okay. I don't like it.

0:20:21.060 --> 0:20:24.800
<v Speaker 2>I don't want it. I want something better. I want intervention.

0:20:24.859 --> 0:20:29.119
<v Speaker 2>I want you to see me and hear me. And

0:20:29.140 --> 0:20:32.660
<v Speaker 2>the groaning is sacred. And the Holy Spirit hears those groanings.

0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:35.720
<v Speaker 2>In fact, the Holy Spirit searches for hearts that are groaning.

0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:41.520
<v Speaker 2>And then, groans to the Father on our behalf. Groans

0:20:42.000 --> 0:20:45.629
<v Speaker 2>so that we have an intercessor, an interpreter, who's taking

0:20:45.810 --> 0:20:48.790
<v Speaker 2>deep anguish of our soul, the longing in us, and

0:20:48.850 --> 0:20:52.210
<v Speaker 2>speaking it in ways to the Father that then allow

0:20:52.310 --> 0:20:56.980
<v Speaker 2>God to move in our lives, to respond to us

0:20:57.100 --> 0:20:59.980
<v Speaker 2>and our need. We're going to pick this up right

0:21:00.020 --> 0:21:00.600
<v Speaker 2>after this break.

0:21:01.230 --> 0:21:01.730
<v Speaker 1>Welcome back.

0:21:02.070 --> 0:21:06.340
<v Speaker 2>You're listening to Healing Conversations on KABC 790.

0:21:06.340 --> 0:21:07.080
<v Speaker 1>I'm Dave Roberts.

0:21:07.180 --> 0:21:11.639
<v Speaker 2>We're talking about groaning, a sacred groaning. What are you

0:21:11.740 --> 0:21:15.500
<v Speaker 2>groaning about today? I don't mean complaining. Complaining is what

0:21:15.540 --> 0:21:20.110
<v Speaker 2>comes out your mouth, comes out your pores. But groaning,

0:21:21.109 --> 0:21:25.530
<v Speaker 2>groaning is what happens deep inside of us. Something that

0:21:25.590 --> 0:21:29.750
<v Speaker 2>says this isn't right. The world's not right. Politics aren't right.

0:21:29.990 --> 0:21:33.840
<v Speaker 2>The wars aren't right. the national disasters aren't right, the

0:21:33.900 --> 0:21:37.200
<v Speaker 2>red tape's not right, the bureaucracy's not right, the lack

0:21:37.240 --> 0:21:40.280
<v Speaker 2>of compassion's not right. Depending on where you fall on

0:21:40.300 --> 0:21:43.640
<v Speaker 2>the political spectrum, we all have different senses of what's

0:21:43.680 --> 0:21:47.140
<v Speaker 2>right and what's wrong. One side believes the other side

0:21:47.180 --> 0:21:49.840
<v Speaker 2>is all wrong and has a long list of the groanings,

0:21:49.940 --> 0:21:52.050
<v Speaker 2>and the other side believes the other side's all wrong

0:21:52.070 --> 0:21:53.990
<v Speaker 2>and has a different list of the groanings. But most

0:21:54.030 --> 0:21:55.990
<v Speaker 2>of us are groaning in one way or the other.

0:21:56.450 --> 0:21:59.290
<v Speaker 2>And Paul suggests that All of us are groaning over

0:21:59.350 --> 0:22:02.390
<v Speaker 2>something that matters, that it's broken and it's not working right.

0:22:03.270 --> 0:22:05.790
<v Speaker 2>And we may not know exactly what the solution is,

0:22:05.880 --> 0:22:09.159
<v Speaker 2>but the promise is that as our hearts, our souls groan,

0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:13.040
<v Speaker 2>those are interpreted, that nothing gets the attention of the

0:22:13.080 --> 0:22:17.060
<v Speaker 2>Holy Spirit quite like some human being groaning, longing for

0:22:17.119 --> 0:22:22.100
<v Speaker 2>something better, searching, asking big questions. What's the meaning of life?

0:22:22.140 --> 0:22:22.960
<v Speaker 2>What's the purpose?

0:22:23.020 --> 0:22:27.290
<v Speaker 1>Is there more? Who's God? Does God exist? Those groanings.

0:22:28.240 --> 0:22:31.740
<v Speaker 2>Are then interpreted right to the heart of God on

0:22:31.800 --> 0:22:36.860
<v Speaker 2>our behalf, an interpreter, an intercessor. And then finally, intercessors

0:22:37.080 --> 0:22:41.790
<v Speaker 2>trust in the good. Paul concludes this little section of

0:22:41.830 --> 0:22:44.429
<v Speaker 2>chapter 8 in verse 28 when he says, And we

0:22:44.470 --> 0:22:47.270
<v Speaker 2>know that in all things God works for the good

0:22:47.310 --> 0:22:49.670
<v Speaker 2>of those who love him, who have been called according

0:22:49.710 --> 0:22:52.330
<v Speaker 2>to his purposes. Now this gets back to Paul's primal view.

0:22:53.800 --> 0:22:55.639
<v Speaker 2>We know that in all things, God's working for the

0:22:55.680 --> 0:22:59.890
<v Speaker 2>good of those that are seeking to live within God's ways,

0:23:00.130 --> 0:23:03.250
<v Speaker 2>that are saying and believing that this is God's world

0:23:03.810 --> 0:23:05.510
<v Speaker 2>and I'm a part of his creation. And so I'm

0:23:05.530 --> 0:23:07.490
<v Speaker 2>going to do my best to do things his way,

0:23:07.609 --> 0:23:13.000
<v Speaker 2>to love him, love others, and to be the steward

0:23:13.060 --> 0:23:15.600
<v Speaker 2>of the world that I live in. And as I

0:23:15.700 --> 0:23:18.659
<v Speaker 2>seek to love God and to love others and to

0:23:18.760 --> 0:23:22.840
<v Speaker 2>steward creation, that God is going to be working for

0:23:23.580 --> 0:23:27.890
<v Speaker 2>for the good in my circumstances, in my life. That

0:23:27.950 --> 0:23:31.310
<v Speaker 2>the more of us that move into this, God first,

0:23:32.470 --> 0:23:36.530
<v Speaker 2>then loving others as ourselves, an unselfish existence, and then

0:23:36.590 --> 0:23:40.090
<v Speaker 2>a steward taking good care of the things around us,

0:23:40.150 --> 0:23:45.080
<v Speaker 2>the planet, all creation, that then more and more good

0:23:45.220 --> 0:23:49.500
<v Speaker 2>is being injected into the world. And God is continuing

0:23:49.580 --> 0:23:52.729
<v Speaker 2>to work with that to create this hope and this

0:23:52.790 --> 0:23:57.310
<v Speaker 2>redemption and this new world. We're wired for intercession and

0:23:57.350 --> 0:23:59.889
<v Speaker 2>we're wired to intercede for others. There's a very basic

0:23:59.950 --> 0:24:02.450
<v Speaker 2>need in us to have someone to help and support

0:24:02.560 --> 0:24:06.659
<v Speaker 2>and encourage us and to be supporters and encouragers of

0:24:06.700 --> 0:24:11.260
<v Speaker 2>the people around us. We are wired for intercession.

0:24:12.060 --> 0:24:15.859
<v Speaker 1>I'm welcoming into the studio Eric McLennan. Welcome, Eric. Good morning, Dave.

0:24:16.280 --> 0:24:16.719
<v Speaker 4>How are you?

0:24:16.740 --> 0:24:19.700
<v Speaker 1>I'm pretty good. How are you? I'm doing okay. Thanks.

0:24:20.180 --> 0:24:23.619
<v Speaker 1>How do you feel about this whole intercession thing? Oh,

0:24:23.960 --> 0:24:28.120
<v Speaker 1>I mean, let's talk about groaning. Yeah, let's talk about that. Yeah.

0:24:29.400 --> 0:24:30.940
<v Speaker 1>I think it's super descriptive.

0:24:31.260 --> 0:24:36.040
<v Speaker 2>And I like this thought that I have space in

0:24:36.080 --> 0:24:39.050
<v Speaker 2>my life to be a person who groans.

0:24:39.950 --> 0:24:44.690
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think it fits in the category of doubting

0:24:44.730 --> 0:24:45.730
<v Speaker 3>and questioning.

0:24:45.750 --> 0:24:46.450
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:24:47.730 --> 0:24:51.169
<v Speaker 3>It just fits in a category of a lot of

0:24:51.210 --> 0:24:54.330
<v Speaker 3>people at some point in their lives were told not

0:24:54.369 --> 0:24:54.930
<v Speaker 3>to do this.

0:24:55.590 --> 0:24:55.850
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:24:56.190 --> 0:24:56.810
<v Speaker 3>You know what I mean?

0:24:56.830 --> 0:24:59.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Hey, God's going to work everything out.

0:24:59.540 --> 0:25:00.580
<v Speaker 4>So just buck up.

0:25:01.560 --> 0:25:02.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, absolutely.

0:25:02.640 --> 0:25:05.460
<v Speaker 3>I think it fits in that category of stuff that

0:25:06.119 --> 0:25:08.899
<v Speaker 3>maybe we don't do because at some point someone in

0:25:08.980 --> 0:25:12.570
<v Speaker 3>our lives kind of told us that it was wrong.

0:25:12.650 --> 0:25:14.790
<v Speaker 3>So I think it's really healthy to have a conversation

0:25:14.830 --> 0:25:19.320
<v Speaker 3>about how it's how we're wired and it's a necessary

0:25:19.500 --> 0:25:21.780
<v Speaker 3>part of our relationship with God.

0:25:22.240 --> 0:25:25.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Well, and I think, you know, people groan. I mean,

0:25:25.580 --> 0:25:26.889
<v Speaker 1>there's no doubt about it.

0:25:27.340 --> 0:25:30.379
<v Speaker 2>And I think there, I mean, I think the fine

0:25:30.440 --> 0:25:34.560
<v Speaker 2>line here is, man, let's be honest about our groaning,

0:25:35.440 --> 0:25:39.270
<v Speaker 2>but let's not give in to complaining. Is that a

0:25:39.369 --> 0:25:40.970
<v Speaker 2>meaningful distinction to you?

0:25:40.990 --> 0:25:42.050
<v Speaker 4>Oh, totally.

0:25:42.869 --> 0:25:47.630
<v Speaker 3>Because I think one is I feel like groaning is

0:25:47.650 --> 0:25:53.390
<v Speaker 3>the natural reaction and complaining is your action that you

0:25:53.430 --> 0:25:54.780
<v Speaker 3>take a step further.

0:25:54.800 --> 0:25:56.080
<v Speaker 4>That makes sense.

0:25:56.580 --> 0:25:58.140
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I think so.

0:25:58.160 --> 0:26:02.659
<v Speaker 3>I mean, my daughter is 12 and just started seventh

0:26:02.680 --> 0:26:03.400
<v Speaker 3>grade this year.

0:26:03.940 --> 0:26:04.940
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:26:04.960 --> 0:26:10.310
<v Speaker 3>And so many of our conversations as she is going

0:26:10.350 --> 0:26:13.960
<v Speaker 3>through changes in life and her body and her new

0:26:14.060 --> 0:26:15.040
<v Speaker 3>school with new.

0:26:15.020 --> 0:26:16.300
<v Speaker 1>Friends, all these things.

0:26:16.619 --> 0:26:20.850
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. How many times is our conversation about your feelings

0:26:21.130 --> 0:26:26.750
<v Speaker 3>are legit and they matter, but how you act, they don't,

0:26:27.230 --> 0:26:29.910
<v Speaker 3>they don't give you permission to act however you want.

0:26:30.270 --> 0:26:30.510
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:26:30.670 --> 0:26:30.930
<v Speaker 4>Right.

0:26:31.990 --> 0:26:34.530
<v Speaker 2>I think I, sometimes in counseling, I say it this way,

0:26:34.650 --> 0:26:41.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, your feelings are your, your truth, you know,

0:26:41.359 --> 0:26:44.080
<v Speaker 2>that's what's happening to you, but they're not the truth,

0:26:45.000 --> 0:26:48.139
<v Speaker 2>you know? And when you, when you treat your feelings

0:26:48.280 --> 0:26:51.880
<v Speaker 2>as if that now means that these people don't like you,

0:26:52.119 --> 0:26:54.639
<v Speaker 2>it means that, you know, people think less of you.

0:26:54.720 --> 0:26:57.280
<v Speaker 2>It means that you're somehow less than, or it means

0:26:57.340 --> 0:27:00.310
<v Speaker 2>that you think you're right and everybody else is wrong.

0:27:01.290 --> 0:27:03.470
<v Speaker 2>You know, that's, that's where we have to put limits.

0:27:03.490 --> 0:27:05.890
<v Speaker 2>And I think, yeah, that's a good distinction between groaning

0:27:05.970 --> 0:27:06.770
<v Speaker 2>and complaining.

0:27:07.430 --> 0:27:07.770
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:27:07.830 --> 0:27:13.810
<v Speaker 3>I mean, I think that, God isn't unaware that life

0:27:13.869 --> 0:27:18.190
<v Speaker 3>is hard. He could have made it without the pain

0:27:18.310 --> 0:27:22.710
<v Speaker 3>and without the suffering. It's not like he's sitting there going,

0:27:22.750 --> 0:27:27.210
<v Speaker 3>why are all these people groaning? He's very aware of

0:27:28.010 --> 0:27:28.869
<v Speaker 3>how it is, right?

0:27:29.250 --> 0:27:29.410
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:27:29.850 --> 0:27:31.310
<v Speaker 1>Well, and I think we know we know this.

0:27:31.390 --> 0:27:33.320
<v Speaker 2>I mean, we do this with our own children, and

0:27:33.380 --> 0:27:36.000
<v Speaker 2>that is we don't want them to suffer, but we

0:27:36.040 --> 0:27:39.480
<v Speaker 2>also don't want them to not be equipped for life

0:27:39.580 --> 0:27:42.979
<v Speaker 2>and to not develop good character and to not know

0:27:43.040 --> 0:27:47.340
<v Speaker 2>how to treat people. And sadly, you know, the way

0:27:47.420 --> 0:27:50.520
<v Speaker 2>that we build character is hardship. I mean, things that

0:27:50.540 --> 0:27:53.179
<v Speaker 2>we go through that are a struggle that helps teach us.

0:27:53.780 --> 0:27:54.859
<v Speaker 1>One, we're not going to die.

0:27:55.160 --> 0:27:57.600
<v Speaker 2>You know, I used to tell the girls when they

0:27:57.619 --> 0:28:00.130
<v Speaker 2>were small, You know, one of the reasons we play

0:28:00.170 --> 0:28:05.650
<v Speaker 2>sports is because it feels so important at the time.

0:28:06.270 --> 0:28:09.669
<v Speaker 2>It feels so immense. You know, what I do today,

0:28:09.730 --> 0:28:13.430
<v Speaker 2>how I play right now, being in this hard situation,

0:28:13.600 --> 0:28:16.480
<v Speaker 2>teams counting on me, whatever it all is. And you

0:28:16.520 --> 0:28:20.420
<v Speaker 2>can you just are put in these very stressful situations

0:28:21.220 --> 0:28:24.510
<v Speaker 2>and then they don't matter. Ultimately, you walk off that

0:28:24.570 --> 0:28:27.850
<v Speaker 2>field and it's like, okay, it was a softball game, man, whatever.

0:28:28.990 --> 0:28:34.250
<v Speaker 2>But it feels, it creates this almost false intensity. I

0:28:34.770 --> 0:28:38.290
<v Speaker 2>think it's super healthy for kids to struggle and to

0:28:38.350 --> 0:28:42.140
<v Speaker 2>learn and challenge themselves and become competent, calm themselves down,

0:28:42.640 --> 0:28:45.820
<v Speaker 2>because it's harder when it's the real world. But these

0:28:45.920 --> 0:28:47.800
<v Speaker 2>all lessons develop our character.

0:28:47.880 --> 0:28:48.520
<v Speaker 1>And as parents.

0:28:48.960 --> 0:28:51.010
<v Speaker 2>And when we've seen both, I mean, you know, I'm

0:28:51.050 --> 0:28:53.720
<v Speaker 2>sure you see it. You're still in the place where

0:28:53.740 --> 0:28:55.570
<v Speaker 2>you interact with a lot of parents and a lot

0:28:55.590 --> 0:28:59.150
<v Speaker 2>of parenting styles. And you have some parents that don't

0:28:59.190 --> 0:29:01.510
<v Speaker 2>do nearly enough and their kids really struggle. And then

0:29:01.530 --> 0:29:03.510
<v Speaker 2>you have parents that do way too much and their

0:29:03.550 --> 0:29:06.470
<v Speaker 2>kids struggle. There's a sweet spot in there. And I

0:29:06.490 --> 0:29:08.830
<v Speaker 2>think that's what God is. I think that's what Paul

0:29:08.890 --> 0:29:11.490
<v Speaker 2>is referencing of how God treats us in the world.

0:29:12.130 --> 0:29:17.820
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think this whole message today, every part of it,

0:29:18.520 --> 0:29:21.340
<v Speaker 3>I've tried to find the sweet spot of where it

0:29:21.800 --> 0:29:25.260
<v Speaker 3>really makes sense to me. Because just the idea of

0:29:25.320 --> 0:29:30.140
<v Speaker 3>pain and suffering, right? There's a sweet spot between all

0:29:30.200 --> 0:29:32.590
<v Speaker 3>pain and suffering is relative.

0:29:33.290 --> 0:29:33.990
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:29:34.010 --> 0:29:36.970
<v Speaker 3>And we all go through it. Right. But also my

0:29:37.010 --> 0:29:40.500
<v Speaker 3>pain and suffering is a lot lighter than... some of

0:29:40.560 --> 0:29:42.760
<v Speaker 3>the pain and suffering going on in the world.

0:29:43.160 --> 0:29:43.440
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:29:43.560 --> 0:29:46.960
<v Speaker 3>Like there does have to be a balance with groaning

0:29:47.780 --> 0:29:50.540
<v Speaker 3>of moving on from some things that maybe I don't

0:29:50.580 --> 0:29:51.380
<v Speaker 3>need to groan about.

0:29:51.800 --> 0:29:52.020
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:29:52.120 --> 0:29:53.680
<v Speaker 2>And, you know, and that may be one of the

0:29:53.700 --> 0:30:01.490
<v Speaker 2>biggest frustrations is of what we talk about in our

0:30:01.550 --> 0:30:06.870
<v Speaker 2>media today, whether it's the mainstream news media or social media.

0:30:07.610 --> 0:30:11.030
<v Speaker 2>Why are we not educating people about the greater conditions

0:30:11.090 --> 0:30:14.729
<v Speaker 2>of the world and what's really going on and how

0:30:14.780 --> 0:30:20.060
<v Speaker 2>people really live? We say here at Montrose, please come

0:30:20.640 --> 0:30:24.560
<v Speaker 2>with us to Africa sometime so you can see firsthand

0:30:25.100 --> 0:30:27.420
<v Speaker 2>And it's not a pitiful story. It's not asking them

0:30:27.460 --> 0:30:30.860
<v Speaker 2>to come and see how people are suffering. It's asking

0:30:30.880 --> 0:30:33.360
<v Speaker 2>them to come and see that we take so much

0:30:33.460 --> 0:30:37.040
<v Speaker 2>for granted in our comfort. And many people in the

0:30:37.080 --> 0:30:41.590
<v Speaker 2>world do not live with nearly the same level of comfort.

0:30:42.850 --> 0:30:47.710
<v Speaker 2>And yet they seem pretty happy and pretty content. And

0:30:47.750 --> 0:30:51.130
<v Speaker 2>yet we're never quite content. We're never quite in a

0:30:51.150 --> 0:30:54.250
<v Speaker 2>good place. There's many things for us to complain about.

0:30:54.950 --> 0:30:57.300
<v Speaker 2>So so I think, you know, getting looking at the

0:30:57.360 --> 0:31:01.840
<v Speaker 2>world and seeing and then there's always tragic circumstances. I mean,

0:31:02.400 --> 0:31:04.520
<v Speaker 2>you know, what's going on in Haiti right now? Can

0:31:04.560 --> 0:31:07.620
<v Speaker 2>you imagine living in a place where there's just so

0:31:07.660 --> 0:31:12.680
<v Speaker 2>much fear and so much lack of control? And and,

0:31:12.880 --> 0:31:15.940
<v Speaker 2>you know, and so I think that perspective helps us

0:31:16.300 --> 0:31:18.770
<v Speaker 2>to sit in space and go, well, let me. Let

0:31:18.810 --> 0:31:22.230
<v Speaker 2>me adjust my groaning to the appropriate groaning level for

0:31:22.330 --> 0:31:24.610
<v Speaker 2>where I am, not just in the story of my life,

0:31:24.650 --> 0:31:27.010
<v Speaker 2>but in the story of the life of my whole family,

0:31:27.050 --> 0:31:30.030
<v Speaker 2>but also in the context of what the whole world

0:31:30.070 --> 0:31:30.570
<v Speaker 2>looks like.

0:31:30.850 --> 0:31:32.610
<v Speaker 1>You know, where am I? Because I think.

0:31:32.470 --> 0:31:34.570
<v Speaker 2>We do have a tendency. We take a lot of

0:31:35.010 --> 0:31:38.390
<v Speaker 2>twos and treat them like tens. Well, we're going to

0:31:38.430 --> 0:31:40.470
<v Speaker 2>continue this conversation right after this break.

0:31:40.560 --> 0:31:42.140
<v Speaker 1>We'll be back. Welcome back.

0:31:42.360 --> 0:31:45.680
<v Speaker 2>You're listening to Healing Conversations with Eric McClenahan and Dave

0:31:45.740 --> 0:31:51.630
<v Speaker 2>Roberts on KABC 790. Last little segment to talk about

0:31:52.150 --> 0:31:56.150
<v Speaker 2>what it means for us to be wired for intercession.

0:31:56.630 --> 0:31:59.050
<v Speaker 2>Other comments or thoughts you thought about as we were

0:31:59.130 --> 0:31:59.930
<v Speaker 2>talking through that?

0:32:00.310 --> 0:32:04.470
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, what do you think the difference is between, because

0:32:04.510 --> 0:32:09.460
<v Speaker 3>you talked about living in the not yet and living

0:32:09.780 --> 0:32:10.580
<v Speaker 3>emoting hope.

0:32:11.340 --> 0:32:11.620
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:32:11.910 --> 0:32:12.480
<v Speaker 1>Those things.

0:32:13.000 --> 0:32:17.700
<v Speaker 3>What is the difference between expecting and hoping and living

0:32:17.740 --> 0:32:17.979
<v Speaker 3>in the.

0:32:17.980 --> 0:32:21.220
<v Speaker 1>Not yet and being naive?

0:32:22.180 --> 0:32:22.860
<v Speaker 3>You know what I mean?

0:32:22.920 --> 0:32:23.140
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:32:23.200 --> 0:32:30.300
<v Speaker 3>We've experienced, for instance, we've experienced people who won't go

0:32:30.340 --> 0:32:30.960
<v Speaker 3>to doctors.

0:32:31.540 --> 0:32:31.780
<v Speaker 4>Right.

0:32:31.820 --> 0:32:34.120
<v Speaker 3>Because they're living in the not yet and the hope

0:32:34.180 --> 0:32:36.830
<v Speaker 3>and they're emoting hope that God is going to heal them.

0:32:37.390 --> 0:32:42.190
<v Speaker 3>What is hopeful and then what is... naive and not

0:32:42.230 --> 0:32:43.950
<v Speaker 3>being a good steward of things, I guess.

0:32:44.290 --> 0:32:44.530
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:32:45.050 --> 0:32:47.120
<v Speaker 1>Well, I don't know if there's a specific line.

0:32:47.130 --> 0:32:47.820
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:32:47.980 --> 0:32:50.360
<v Speaker 1>But I do think there is. I said this whole

0:32:50.400 --> 0:32:53.800
<v Speaker 1>this whole thing. There's like a weird, tricky balance. Yeah.

0:32:54.420 --> 0:32:57.820
<v Speaker 2>I think there's a philosophical sort of construct that I

0:32:57.860 --> 0:32:58.800
<v Speaker 2>think makes sense.

0:32:59.080 --> 0:32:59.600
<v Speaker 1>And that is.

0:33:00.720 --> 0:33:03.220
<v Speaker 2>Somewhat like the old story about the people in the

0:33:03.260 --> 0:33:05.020
<v Speaker 2>flood and they're on the top of the house and,

0:33:05.360 --> 0:33:07.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, the people row by in the boat and

0:33:07.680 --> 0:33:09.280
<v Speaker 2>they say, get in, you know, and they say, no,

0:33:09.300 --> 0:33:11.350
<v Speaker 2>I'm waiting for God to save me. And then, you know,

0:33:11.370 --> 0:33:13.470
<v Speaker 2>the helicopter comes and they say, no, I'm waiting for

0:33:13.510 --> 0:33:15.010
<v Speaker 2>God to save me. And then they drown and they

0:33:15.030 --> 0:33:15.470
<v Speaker 2>get to heaven.

0:33:15.490 --> 0:33:16.790
<v Speaker 1>They go, well, I thought you were going to save me.

0:33:16.810 --> 0:33:18.370
<v Speaker 1>He goes, well, it's in a boat and a helicopter.

0:33:18.650 --> 0:33:19.610
<v Speaker 1>You know, what do you want me to do?

0:33:21.010 --> 0:33:25.550
<v Speaker 2>I think that the philosophical construct is God has created

0:33:25.570 --> 0:33:29.760
<v Speaker 2>a world that has options and choices for us. And

0:33:29.780 --> 0:33:32.460
<v Speaker 2>we want to make the best of that. And so

0:33:32.500 --> 0:33:36.620
<v Speaker 2>whether that's choosing how I eat and what I put

0:33:36.660 --> 0:33:39.020
<v Speaker 2>in my body and how I exercise and take care

0:33:39.040 --> 0:33:41.720
<v Speaker 2>of what God's given me, how I make use of

0:33:42.290 --> 0:33:47.070
<v Speaker 2>medicine and the world and doctors and tests and preventative medicine,

0:33:47.150 --> 0:33:50.970
<v Speaker 2>all of that stuff seems to me to make sense.

0:33:51.670 --> 0:33:54.690
<v Speaker 2>Let's do the best we can because we're all going

0:33:54.730 --> 0:33:57.120
<v Speaker 2>to get to a point where it's beyond our control.

0:33:58.000 --> 0:34:02.730
<v Speaker 2>And I think that's when this steps in. I think

0:34:02.770 --> 0:34:06.040
<v Speaker 2>of it this way. You know, faith is not choosing

0:34:06.890 --> 0:34:10.600
<v Speaker 2>reason or faith. Take reason as far as you can

0:34:10.640 --> 0:34:14.200
<v Speaker 2>take it. You know, write it as far as it

0:34:14.239 --> 0:34:20.100
<v Speaker 2>can get you. Logic, you know, just common sense. Take

0:34:20.120 --> 0:34:22.660
<v Speaker 2>that as far as you can. But when you can't

0:34:22.700 --> 0:34:25.960
<v Speaker 2>take it any further, that's where now we go. But

0:34:26.000 --> 0:34:31.270
<v Speaker 2>now I trust. I think we feel that groaning very

0:34:31.370 --> 0:34:34.830
<v Speaker 2>keenly in our political system right now, more than I

0:34:34.870 --> 0:34:38.609
<v Speaker 2>think we ever have. I like to listen to old

0:34:38.690 --> 0:34:42.100
<v Speaker 2>radio shows and watch old television. It's interesting to me

0:34:42.140 --> 0:34:45.279
<v Speaker 2>the jokes that are made about politics way back in

0:34:45.340 --> 0:34:51.210
<v Speaker 2>the 1950s and 60s. They're still pretty pointed. You can

0:34:51.310 --> 0:34:55.319
<v Speaker 2>see that There's definitely a couple of different sides out

0:34:55.360 --> 0:34:59.100
<v Speaker 2>there arguing. But the difference is people just laugh about it.

0:34:59.430 --> 0:35:01.570
<v Speaker 1>It's funny. It's not funny anymore.

0:35:01.590 --> 0:35:04.610
<v Speaker 2>I mean, one side laughs at their jokes and the

0:35:04.700 --> 0:35:06.900
<v Speaker 2>other side laughs at their jokes, but they don't all

0:35:06.960 --> 0:35:08.240
<v Speaker 2>laugh at the same jokes.

0:35:10.360 --> 0:35:11.900
<v Speaker 1>And I think that, you know.

0:35:12.860 --> 0:35:17.180
<v Speaker 2>That we are invited into a space where the groaning

0:35:17.340 --> 0:35:20.540
<v Speaker 2>over politics that we can't do much about is then

0:35:20.580 --> 0:35:24.719
<v Speaker 2>we go, but, but I'm optimistic that ultimately God is

0:35:24.780 --> 0:35:25.920
<v Speaker 2>working for something better.

0:35:26.440 --> 0:35:26.660
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:35:27.060 --> 0:35:29.819
<v Speaker 2>You know, cause this isn't working and that isn't working and,

0:35:30.330 --> 0:35:33.589
<v Speaker 2>and there's no clean, neat way, you know, we can't

0:35:33.630 --> 0:35:35.830
<v Speaker 2>have open borders, but we also can't be mean to

0:35:35.870 --> 0:35:39.810
<v Speaker 2>people and lack compassion and, You know, that's complicated.

0:35:39.870 --> 0:35:41.310
<v Speaker 1>Where's that line? I don't know.

0:35:41.330 --> 0:35:44.270
<v Speaker 2>We want to be merciful, but we also want justice.

0:35:44.590 --> 0:35:45.410
<v Speaker 1>That's messy.

0:35:46.370 --> 0:35:49.149
<v Speaker 2>You know, we want to help people that are struggling financially,

0:35:49.210 --> 0:35:52.259
<v Speaker 2>but we don't want to have toxic charity. That's complicated.

0:35:53.960 --> 0:35:57.100
<v Speaker 2>But when we talk about God as holy, we're talking

0:35:57.160 --> 0:36:01.620
<v Speaker 2>about and saying out loud, God's figured out those messy balances.

0:36:01.760 --> 0:36:04.080
<v Speaker 2>And we don't know. That's why we ask him to

0:36:04.239 --> 0:36:06.700
<v Speaker 2>intercede and help us to know.

0:36:06.719 --> 0:36:06.799
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:36:08.150 --> 0:36:10.580
<v Speaker 1>But for people to have a biblical kind.

0:36:10.420 --> 0:36:16.660
<v Speaker 2>Of optimism, I've used this phrase in the last few years.

0:36:16.700 --> 0:36:19.020
<v Speaker 2>I think it belongs to Andy Stanley. But in one

0:36:19.040 --> 0:36:22.089
<v Speaker 2>of these political cycles, he said, you know, be careful

0:36:22.110 --> 0:36:25.150
<v Speaker 2>what you're saying. You're scaring the children. And sometimes, you know,

0:36:25.290 --> 0:36:27.210
<v Speaker 2>what we talk about around the table in front of

0:36:27.250 --> 0:36:30.660
<v Speaker 2>our children, it sounds pretty bad. It makes the world

0:36:30.719 --> 0:36:34.399
<v Speaker 2>a very scary and it creates more anger. You know,

0:36:34.800 --> 0:36:36.620
<v Speaker 2>you don't have to go very far. You can go

0:36:36.640 --> 0:36:39.610
<v Speaker 2>to almost any elementary school and bring up political subjects

0:36:39.690 --> 0:36:42.189
<v Speaker 2>and kids will be very volatile about it because they've

0:36:42.210 --> 0:36:45.250
<v Speaker 2>heard their parents talk about it. And they've already formed

0:36:45.390 --> 0:36:48.430
<v Speaker 2>very strong opinions about who's right and who's wrong. And,

0:36:48.950 --> 0:36:50.930
<v Speaker 2>you know, now as they get older, those things may

0:36:51.469 --> 0:36:53.640
<v Speaker 2>change and they may go in a whole different direction

0:36:53.900 --> 0:36:58.920
<v Speaker 2>in reaction to. But are we leaving conversations, people with

0:36:59.000 --> 0:37:02.460
<v Speaker 2>a sense of hope, you know, with a sense that

0:37:02.600 --> 0:37:03.200
<v Speaker 2>it's not yet?

0:37:04.280 --> 0:37:06.940
<v Speaker 1>But God's working on it. It's coming.

0:37:07.460 --> 0:37:16.469
<v Speaker 4>I mean, you have in 38 years of ministry, you've

0:37:17.450 --> 0:37:21.650
<v Speaker 4>had people in your office that have talked about pretty

0:37:21.710 --> 0:37:24.810
<v Speaker 4>much every kind of suffering imaginable.

0:37:25.670 --> 0:37:32.469
<v Speaker 3>I mean, there's been murders, there's been cancer, there's been Affairs.

0:37:33.710 --> 0:37:39.610
<v Speaker 3>You've run the gamut of people's suffering. We know that

0:37:40.300 --> 0:37:43.879
<v Speaker 3>God doesn't intercede and fix everything the way that we

0:37:43.920 --> 0:37:44.790
<v Speaker 3>want him to fix it.

0:37:44.800 --> 0:37:49.279
<v Speaker 1>So is that where you land with them?

0:37:49.940 --> 0:37:52.739
<v Speaker 3>That the big picture hope is where you land and

0:37:52.880 --> 0:37:56.410
<v Speaker 3>I'm going to be here with you through the groaning?

0:37:56.770 --> 0:38:00.069
<v Speaker 3>How do you approach those situations that are really hard?

0:38:00.910 --> 0:38:05.290
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think you make the future less the topic

0:38:05.330 --> 0:38:08.529
<v Speaker 2>than the present in the sense that I'm not sure

0:38:08.550 --> 0:38:13.330
<v Speaker 2>people that are in the depths of significant suffering care

0:38:13.390 --> 0:38:14.390
<v Speaker 2>about what's next.

0:38:14.430 --> 0:38:15.590
<v Speaker 1>They care about what's now.

0:38:16.450 --> 0:38:18.330
<v Speaker 2>And I think being with them, that's where I think

0:38:18.390 --> 0:38:22.150
<v Speaker 2>in this series, the point of we're not afraid.

0:38:21.870 --> 0:38:22.570
<v Speaker 1>Of the decay.

0:38:23.190 --> 0:38:26.819
<v Speaker 2>We can admit this is broken and it's not working

0:38:26.880 --> 0:38:28.279
<v Speaker 2>and it's not how we want it to be and

0:38:28.320 --> 0:38:31.750
<v Speaker 2>it's not okay. And I think sometimes, you know, the

0:38:31.810 --> 0:38:34.069
<v Speaker 2>scripture says we're to rejoice with those who rejoice and

0:38:34.090 --> 0:38:35.990
<v Speaker 2>mourn with those who mourn. I think we discount what

0:38:36.010 --> 0:38:39.480
<v Speaker 2>it means to mourn with those who mourn, to just be.

0:38:39.400 --> 0:38:40.399
<v Speaker 1>In space with them.

0:38:41.260 --> 0:38:43.680
<v Speaker 2>I can't tell you how many people that one of

0:38:43.719 --> 0:38:48.720
<v Speaker 2>the most redemptive things that I hear from people who

0:38:48.760 --> 0:38:52.250
<v Speaker 2>go through these deep, deep waters and will tell me later,

0:38:52.910 --> 0:38:55.810
<v Speaker 2>it's when they hear me say, it's OK to be angry.

0:38:56.540 --> 0:38:59.779
<v Speaker 2>It's OK to be overwhelmed. It's OK to grieve. It's

0:38:59.840 --> 0:39:04.160
<v Speaker 2>OK to, you know, let me come with you in this,

0:39:04.219 --> 0:39:06.880
<v Speaker 2>not tell you how you ought to be feeling or

0:39:06.920 --> 0:39:12.020
<v Speaker 2>what you could be doing better. Somewhere after that, there

0:39:12.060 --> 0:39:15.520
<v Speaker 2>are places that they will open the door to.

0:39:15.500 --> 0:39:17.640
<v Speaker 1>Talk about ultimate hope. Yeah.

0:39:18.020 --> 0:39:22.219
<v Speaker 2>But the ultimate hope can't erase the present groaning or

0:39:22.260 --> 0:39:26.549
<v Speaker 2>the present suffering. It's just that it's a background that's

0:39:26.690 --> 0:39:31.840
<v Speaker 2>better than there's no point. Life's meaningless. You have trouble

0:39:31.880 --> 0:39:37.460
<v Speaker 2>and then you die. You know, that's a whole psychological spiral,

0:39:37.880 --> 0:39:40.200
<v Speaker 2>you know. But I think you have to be super

0:39:40.239 --> 0:39:42.759
<v Speaker 2>sensitive with people to not try to move to that

0:39:42.820 --> 0:39:44.180
<v Speaker 2>until they want to move to that.

0:39:45.080 --> 0:39:47.129
<v Speaker 1>They've got to be done with, you.

0:39:47.090 --> 0:39:49.440
<v Speaker 2>Know, As we know about the cycles of grief, if

0:39:49.460 --> 0:39:52.719
<v Speaker 2>you wanted to approach this from a psychological standpoint, you

0:39:52.760 --> 0:39:55.480
<v Speaker 2>can't tell people to go ahead and get to acceptance

0:39:56.200 --> 0:39:57.200
<v Speaker 2>if they're still in anger.

0:39:57.420 --> 0:39:59.140
<v Speaker 1>You know, you can't ask them to.

0:39:59.489 --> 0:40:03.570
<v Speaker 2>Fast forward into some other better, more comfortable space in

0:40:03.610 --> 0:40:05.270
<v Speaker 2>their grief because they're not there yet.

0:40:05.690 --> 0:40:06.350
<v Speaker 1>Right, right.

0:40:06.590 --> 0:40:11.410
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, there's a process, which is why even in this verse,

0:40:11.930 --> 0:40:15.500
<v Speaker 3>it says, And we know that in all things, God

0:40:15.540 --> 0:40:17.780
<v Speaker 3>works for the good of those who love him. And

0:40:17.840 --> 0:40:20.990
<v Speaker 3>it doesn't say, and we know that God fixes everything

0:40:21.070 --> 0:40:21.930
<v Speaker 3>for the good.

0:40:21.950 --> 0:40:24.390
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. And it's a very misquoted verse.

0:40:25.050 --> 0:40:28.450
<v Speaker 2>It also doesn't say God causes all things to work

0:40:28.469 --> 0:40:32.340
<v Speaker 2>together for good. It says in all things, God works

0:40:32.430 --> 0:40:35.760
<v Speaker 2>for the good. Because if all things work together for good,

0:40:36.400 --> 0:40:39.620
<v Speaker 2>then we look at death and life and tragedy and

0:40:39.700 --> 0:40:44.129
<v Speaker 2>suffering and we go, well... You know, God's going to

0:40:44.230 --> 0:40:45.029
<v Speaker 2>turn it into good.

0:40:45.110 --> 0:40:49.969
<v Speaker 1>No, he's not. It's terrible, awful, wrong.

0:40:49.989 --> 0:40:52.330
<v Speaker 3>We look at people who aren't following God and see

0:40:52.370 --> 0:40:53.850
<v Speaker 3>the good and go, well, why are they getting the

0:40:53.870 --> 0:40:54.830
<v Speaker 3>good and I'm not?

0:40:55.210 --> 0:40:55.410
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:40:56.070 --> 0:40:58.830
<v Speaker 2>It is a way of saying, no, some things are terrible, bad, awful,

0:40:58.890 --> 0:41:02.180
<v Speaker 2>and they never get better. But in spite of that,

0:41:02.500 --> 0:41:06.040
<v Speaker 2>God will now take the brokenness and try to weave

0:41:06.180 --> 0:41:08.000
<v Speaker 2>good out of the bad.

0:41:08.739 --> 0:41:11.560
<v Speaker 1>But the bad's the bad. And I think we look foolish.

0:41:12.219 --> 0:41:14.860
<v Speaker 2>And we're not very therapeutic and we're not really helping

0:41:14.920 --> 0:41:18.310
<v Speaker 2>and being very good intercessors. If we can't go, no,

0:41:18.650 --> 0:41:22.230
<v Speaker 2>this is bad, you know, that you have cancer and,

0:41:22.410 --> 0:41:26.049
<v Speaker 2>you know, nobody deserves that. And that's not OK. And

0:41:26.110 --> 0:41:28.230
<v Speaker 2>cancer is terrible. And I don't know why it exists.

0:41:28.310 --> 0:41:30.880
<v Speaker 2>And why can't we find a cure? And it's not OK.

0:41:30.890 --> 0:41:35.319
<v Speaker 2>There's nothing good about it. But somewhere in that is

0:41:35.380 --> 0:41:38.259
<v Speaker 2>also an underlying trust that God's going to be with

0:41:38.320 --> 0:41:41.020
<v Speaker 2>you in it. And he's going to work on some

0:41:41.080 --> 0:41:44.220
<v Speaker 2>things that will be good in spite of this.

0:41:44.080 --> 0:41:44.959
<v Speaker 1>Thing that's so bad.

0:41:44.980 --> 0:41:48.339
<v Speaker 2>I hope that the conversation helps you this morning to

0:41:48.380 --> 0:41:50.540
<v Speaker 2>just think about, number one, maybe what you've got this

0:41:50.580 --> 0:41:53.560
<v Speaker 2>morning is some groaning. And don't treat it like a

0:41:53.600 --> 0:41:56.259
<v Speaker 2>bad thing. That's a sacred thing. As you groan at

0:41:56.380 --> 0:41:58.340
<v Speaker 2>how the world works or maybe what's going on in

0:41:58.380 --> 0:42:01.570
<v Speaker 2>your own body, physical stuff, health stuff, if it's in

0:42:01.610 --> 0:42:05.110
<v Speaker 2>your own family, in your own relationships, it's okay to groan.

0:42:05.930 --> 0:42:08.920
<v Speaker 2>You have an interpreter that will take those groanings and

0:42:08.940 --> 0:42:11.500
<v Speaker 2>carry them right to the heart of God. And then

0:42:11.540 --> 0:42:14.529
<v Speaker 2>it's okay also to look around and see who around

0:42:14.550 --> 0:42:17.810
<v Speaker 2>you might be groaning and how you might intercede. Love God,

0:42:18.270 --> 0:42:21.330
<v Speaker 2>love others, be a steward of all creation.

0:42:21.410 --> 0:42:24.910
<v Speaker 1>I think that's God's plan. God bless. Thanks so much

0:42:24.950 --> 0:42:25.430
<v Speaker 1>for listening.