S1: Welcome back to work woman. Today is an exciting day
S1: because you guys are going to geek out on the
S1: guests that I have. As somebody who's coming on to work,
S1: women in this Forbes 30 under 30 series, you guys
S1: are going to get the opportunity to meet Shuo Chen,
S1: who I was just telling her before the show started.
S1: I've spent hours, like hours and hours researching just all
S1: of the things that she has done. And I'm beyond impressed.
S1: And you're like one of the first people that I've
S1: actually looked through that I feel like is totally ten-x,
S1: and you probably don't even know what Ten-x is, but
S1: that's something that's big in this community of listeners who
S1: watch and listen to this podcast. So without further ado,
S1: welcome Shuo Chen to the Work Women podcast. Shuo, how
S1: are you doing today?
S2: I am doing great and thank you so much for hosting.
S2: It is incredibly kind of you to share such an introduction,
S2: and I'm really excited to share more about what I'm
S2: working on, but also to learn more about the incredible
S2: work that you've done and the community that you've built.
S1: I have 45 questions here, and I was like, which
S1: are the questions that I'm actually going to ask and
S1: actually give people a great starting point for who you
S1: are and what you've accomplished. So just I guess, where
S1: were you born, where were you raised, and how did
S1: you get started in your career?
S2: I am a fourth generation Chinese American. My great grandfather
S2: was the first one who came to the States way
S2: back in 1910. He had done his PhD in education,
S2: and we've kind of been back and forth as a
S2: family ever since. So I was born in Beijing myself,
S2: though my sister was born here and grew up on
S2: the West coast, had spent some time in Vancouver, Canada,
S2: which is also, as I was sharing with you earlier, Natalie,
S2: where I'm spending some time now, spending time with my
S2: grandparents who are still retired in this area and then
S2: also am based predominantly out of San Francisco Bay area.
S2: What I'm working on now full time, I'm on the
S2: venture side, so I run an early stage fund that
S2: focuses on investing in startups based out of Silicon Valley,
S2: and I also teach as faculty at UC Berkeley.
S1: How did you get started in venture capital?
S2: Really stumbled into it by chance. That's the honest answer.
S1: Everyone stumbles into it. There's no like when you were
S1: eight years old. I have a hard time believing anyone's like,
S1: I'm going to be a venture capitalist when I grow up.
S2: Yeah, no, I think it would be kind of cool
S2: if that were a thing. And I say that because
S2: I really do feel like representation, especially for young girls,
S2: matter a lot. I think I'm incredibly lucky to have
S2: just seen some really cool role models when I was
S2: growing up, because I would have never imagined being an
S2: investor is even a possibility had I not had that
S2: exposure later on in my career. But when I was young,
S2: I always really was. A very curious child would get
S2: myself in trouble a lot, but would get to work
S2: on just kind of cranking out different solutions to problems
S2: that other people usually deem as either giving up or impossible. And, uh,
S2: that led me down to a path of a lot
S2: of exploration where I didn't really know what I wanted
S2: to study, so took a bit of classes here and there,
S2: trying to figure out what I wanted to do, and
S2: that took me down eventually, the path of entrepreneurship, where
S2: my business partner and I together had started a company
S2: that was really selling into large universities as well as
S2: large banking institutions. After our startup exited, I went into
S2: work on Wall Street myself, covered technology during that time,
S2: and really missed working with startups and founders. So seven
S2: years ago came back to the venture side. Uh, but
S2: to your point, earlier on representation for young kids, for
S2: role models growing up, I do think it would be
S2: so cool if someone listening to this would go back
S2: and talk to say their kids and say, you know,
S2: there are so many cool careers. Let me give you
S2: a sense of what might be possible. That would be
S2: so cool.
S1: How do most people even stumble into it? Right. It's like,
S1: unless your parents are having this conversation with you or
S1: to what you said, role models. Like there are people
S1: that you know in this space. Venture capital seems like
S1: it's almost this untouchable, smart person, smart and well-connected person's, uh,
S1: career path. It doesn't it doesn't seem just from the,
S1: I guess, PR around it, like it's very accessible to people.
S1: And my guess is you would probably argue that it's
S1: absolutely accessible to anybody who was interested in in going
S1: down that path.
S2: Absolutely. Absolutely accessible. Not easy to access though. So those
S2: are two slightly different things. And I say that because
S2: I'm a former founder and now I invest in founders.
S2: So that has certainly made the accessibility piece easier because
S2: when we look at companies, I can relate to what
S2: it was like when I was running a company myself.
S2: Whereas I think with hard work, it's possible to get
S2: in for folks who come from more traditional backgrounds where
S2: they didn't have the luxury of getting exposure to venture capital.
S2: For example, during their earlier operating days, they had bootstrapped
S2: the whole thing. For example, they might not have had
S2: the same ease of accessibility to if they wanted to
S2: become an investor. So one of the things that I
S2: do now, outside of my full time investing role is, um,
S2: serving on the board of this nonprofit that we had
S2: helped co-found, where one of the programs that we run
S2: is a venture fellowship program for folks who are ten
S2: plus years into their respective careers, never had exposure to
S2: venture now, heard about venture for the first time and
S2: want to get involved in some capacity. And we help
S2: those folks make a career switch or at least learn
S2: more about what venture capital is like and how to
S2: get involved.
S1: So spectacular. I mean, I have some questions for you
S1: about how you prioritize everything that you're doing. I want
S1: to wait. I want to give those, like tidbits later
S1: in the podcast, because I'm so fascinated by this idea
S1: of how somebody gets started in VC, but then also
S1: the person listening to this, like the audience member who
S1: is like on their drive, on their run, maybe working out,
S1: maybe taking a walk, whatever the person is doing right
S1: now is likely a business owner, small business owner. So
S1: Carnal Ventures and the company that I work with, um,
S1: that's who we help. We help the small business owner
S1: in specifically the United States of America, help grow their
S1: business from likely they're starting at $1 million business. They
S1: probably had their business for a handful of years. It
S1: might even be a family business. And they have aspirations
S1: to grow their business from 1 million to 5 million
S1: And then from 5 million to 10 million. And so
S1: they're listening to this podcast in order to understand how
S1: do they go about scaling and growing their business. And
S1: we normally go through this very traditional route of how
S1: do you optimize your people, and how do you add
S1: marketing to the equation that actually targets the right customer
S1: so that you get more sales, that grows your business.
S1: But on the VC side, how does that become accessible
S1: to a small business owner operating in today's climate?
S2: Yeah. That's amazing. First of all, really incredible work that
S2: you've done to build this community. And to everyone who's listening, I, I,
S2: as a former founder, always admire people who go choose
S2: to take the difficult route and choose to start their
S2: own business. Starting from zero and from scratch is always
S2: one of the most difficult things, and even trying to
S2: bring innovation into, for example, a family business is not
S2: easy at all. It's certainly a lot easier to work
S2: for someone else. So really, kudos. And to answer your
S2: question about how to learn more about venture capital, I
S2: think now with is particularly post pandemic, with a lot
S2: more things going virtual, there's a lot more accessible content
S2: than ever before. If you wanted to learn about venture
S2: capital as an industry or even emerging technologies and figure out,
S2: I know you mentioned Ten-x, and I'm not sure if
S2: this is the same context in which you use it,
S2: but how emerging technologies could help scale a business ten-x
S2: and leverage the power of technology to automate things and
S2: bring in, um, more optimization to a company than ever before.
S2: So one of the top resources that I personally always
S2: enjoy is going to all these major universities that are
S2: known for their technology and innovation hubs. And I say
S2: that because a university is a great way of attracting talent,
S2: not just at a early stage from college level students,
S2: but all the way up to executive programs, to folks
S2: who are working in large scale institutions. So you have
S2: a widespread, uh, spectrum of content that may be interesting
S2: and are relevant. So I would certainly recommend looking at
S2: your local university or your local educational institution and trying
S2: to figure out what, uh, in-person or even virtual events
S2: and activities are going on. So the nonprofit that I
S2: mentioned earlier, that has a venture fellowship program, I have
S2: the fortune of serving on this board. This nonprofit is
S2: called Decode. It is affiliated with Berkeley and Stanford. It's
S2: it started really out as the largest technology and innovation
S2: community that's co-hosted between Berkeley and Stanford. But since the pandemic,
S2: have really scaled and grown way beyond the two universities.
S2: And there's a ton of conversations that happen within this
S2: particular ecosystem that are really interesting and are oftentimes extending
S2: across multiple communities. For example, if you want to learn
S2: about venture capital as specific to blockchain and cryptocurrencies, well,
S2: there's plenty of recent conversations there around that you want
S2: to learn about venture, particularly as it applies to education
S2: technologies and how to scale up an education startup. There's
S2: a ton of conversation around there, so for folks who
S2: are interested, it's definitely possible to find videos available on
S2: YouTube online. Beyond non-profits and universities, I think another really
S2: good channel is to directly go onto the websites and
S2: platforms of all of these funds. More funds than ever
S2: before are more public about how they invest, what they
S2: invest in, and sometimes might even share some of the
S2: investment memos that they've written to conduct analysis on the
S2: kinds of companies that they're looking at. So I think
S2: it's a great way of leveraging that to learn about
S2: what is venture capital, how does venture capital work and
S2: what are best practices to leverage.
S1: One of the videos I watched was you talking about
S1: the blockchain. And one of the things as I talk
S1: to small business owners daily, that I think that there's
S1: this gap between is how small business could leverage that
S1: sort of technology. As you're talking through innovative technologies, how
S1: does the mindset of a small business owner shift to
S1: even having the acknowledgment that that is something that is
S1: accessible to me. Therefore, I'm going to go learn about
S1: this new thing that could help my business before it's,
S1: you know, not not that it's too late, but before
S1: it's so widely used that it's forced upon people and
S1: it just becomes commonplace. Like, how could they get a
S1: little bit of an edge and change that mindset earlier?
S2: Mhm. I'm so glad you asked that question because it's
S2: all about how do we give small business owners somewhat
S2: of an unfair advantage or a competitive edge ahead of
S2: everyone else. Right. So I love that mindset. I think
S2: a lot of it is about digesting or breaking down
S2: a big idea into digestible pieces. So, for example, with
S2: something like blockchain, I think there's a lot more conversation
S2: now in mainstream media than ever before. But still, very
S2: few people have taken the steps to just hands on
S2: go beyond buy a bitcoin or buy Ethereum to say,
S2: how can I think about using that in my respective business?
S2: I do think it is picking your battles, and once
S2: you pick something that sounds interesting that you want to
S2: learn more about, then figuring out, how can I make
S2: this so small that it's something that I can commit
S2: to doing, and it could be so small as to
S2: let me sign up to attend an event live and
S2: actually show up. And once I show up, let me
S2: actually ask a question. And once I ask a question,
S2: let me take the pains of following up with the
S2: speaker afterwards. So you would be surprised how many people
S2: are openly sharing their contact information online, or how easily
S2: reachable they are on LinkedIn. And you would also for
S2: the average listener, I think they would be surprised how
S2: few people typically reach out after an event. So I
S2: can tell you from firsthand experience that I'm speaking to
S2: an audience of, say, a thousand people live all at
S2: the same time. Even if I encourage people to reach out,
S2: I'll get a handful of people, around a dozen who
S2: actually follow up on email. Even if I shared my
S2: email broadly. And out of the dozen people, maybe like
S2: 2 to 3 will follow up again afterwards. So that
S2: really tells you how few people are taking the initiative
S2: and the proactivity to really have a conversation. I think
S2: if you find a technology area or a particular concept
S2: or a new business model to be really interesting, find
S2: events that are relevant to that. Make sure that you
S2: show up to the event live. Ask the speaker a question.
S2: Be memorable in engaging with that question, and really follow up.
S1: I love everything about what you just said, because the
S1: way that our business got started was my husband and
S1: I showing up to this conference called Growth Conference. There
S1: were 35,000 people at this conference, and it was hosted
S1: by world renowned sales and marketing and real estate expert.
S1: And we sat in the second row where we were
S1: very visible. My husband wore sparkly shoes. He loved sparkly shoes.
S1: I'm so glad he is over the sparkly shoe thing now.
S1: We met people, we talked to people, and then we
S1: formed this business partnership. Most of the game is actually
S1: just showing up to an event and it sounds so
S1: silly and like, okay, what event do I go to?
S1: But once you pick that target and then you get
S1: around people who are talking about it, it is wild
S1: how accessible information and people really are, and it's cool
S1: to see that. That's also, I feel like the spaces
S1: that we operate in are very different, but it's it's
S1: still the, the resounding advice that that you're also giving
S1: as well.
S2: That is so true. And it's really cool to hear
S2: how you started as well. And I'm sure you can
S2: attest to the fact that in the early days, I'm
S2: sure going to an event and even talking to people
S2: feels quite intimidating, because you don't know what the other
S2: person's reaction is going to be. Um, and if I
S2: had to share a very tangible piece of advice that
S2: helped me get over that is thinking about where I
S2: can potentially add value. And I think in my early days,
S2: all I did was show up to events and just
S2: offer my time to be helpful, even if it's as
S2: small as helping the event organizer move chairs around or
S2: help coordinate logistics. And I think it's just by offering
S2: some of the most basic things, but showing consistency to
S2: willingness to do that, that makes a huge difference.
S1: Okay, I have to pivot this just a little bit
S1: because one thing that I am just like, fascinated by
S1: and totally a fan of when it comes to you
S1: is your confidence. And I think the listeners can hear
S1: it in your answers and your ability to be succinct
S1: while also deliver impactful information. Confidence is a difficult thing
S1: to build for so many people. I would love to
S1: know your story about. Have you always been this confident?
S2: Something I'm incredibly grateful for is how ever since a
S2: very young age, my parents have done an amazing job
S2: of encouraging failure. I remember whenever I would do poorly
S2: on something, even if it's a bad grade, or I
S2: had to do a group project and it didn't go well.
S2: Every time I feel like they went above and beyond
S2: to celebrate all the failures. And so I think that's
S2: intrinsically linked to confidence in many ways, because it's possible
S2: for you to be bad at something without you as
S2: a person just being bad. It's so important to separate
S2: who you are and what you do. Even I think oftentimes,
S2: especially as founders, we link our personal identities so much
S2: with what we do that if the work that we
S2: do doesn't go well, that we also personally take a
S2: huge hit to our confidence. And I think it's just
S2: so important to separate the two, even if they're intrinsically
S2: linked brands. I wouldn't say by any stretch that confidence
S2: is something that I'm really good at, but rather I
S2: think over time I've learned to distinguish between what I
S2: do and how I can iterate on that, build on that,
S2: and become better over time, while simultaneously not having failures
S2: be a huge hit to to who I am.
S1: When you do have those failures, and they're not like
S1: those superficial ones that are like, oh, I'll just dust
S1: myself off. But there's something that, like, you really wanted
S1: or you were applying for or going for, and there's
S1: that rejection. Do you have kind of a process that
S1: you go through where you just work through the handling
S1: of the, the rejection or the obstacle that you're you're overcoming?
S2: Absolutely. I think if we don't ever have moments of
S2: huge disappointment or something that we really want, it doesn't
S2: go through. It probably means that the kind of things
S2: that we're trying to do hasn't been hard enough, right?
S2: So if we try to strive for something really hard,
S2: inevitably we will hit a brick wall and have it
S2: not work plenty of the times. I think one of
S2: the important things to keep in mind is what did
S2: I not do well enough that time? Or what can
S2: I improve on from the previous time? And if I
S2: feel like I had done everything right and the outcome
S2: was just not in my control, no regrets whatsoever. And
S2: because I think there is a difference between process versus outcome,
S2: we can only control the process and the outcome. Sometimes
S2: it is a matter of luck. So is there really,
S2: for example, if we're applying for a job, is there
S2: really a tangible difference between the top, say, three people
S2: who get a job, the third person and the fourth person?
S2: It's not as clear that there is an obvious difference.
S2: I was even having this conversation, uh, the other day
S2: with a very close friend. We were looking at research
S2: in this space that said, Oftentimes, if we're looking at
S2: grants that are given out or startups that receive funding
S2: or people who get jobs, you look at the top
S2: number of people who have gotten it versus the immediate
S2: runner ups who would have gotten it but didn't get
S2: it in the long term, you actually see people who
S2: didn't get it with more success because they have more
S2: of a chip on their shoulder, and they work even
S2: harder at getting to where they need to be. So
S2: I personally see every single time where it hasn't worked
S2: out as one point in time, in a much longer
S2: time horizon, where I have then more time to keep
S2: trying and do better.
S1: Oh, I love that so much. It makes me happy
S1: to hear you say that it's self-created. I just, I
S1: feel like even when things start to go well and
S1: there's success in an area I know what has been
S1: successful for me in the past is, is having the
S1: feeling of a chip being on my shoulder, or having
S1: the feeling of this pressure for whatever the next thing is.
S1: And so. sometimes I think it's easy for people to
S1: look at people who have accomplished a lot and think, oh, well,
S1: maybe they handle it in this, like, beautifully happy way
S1: and there's no rejection and things aren't hard. I think
S1: people could very easily mistaken your just accomplishments as something
S1: that might have been an easy road for you, where
S1: I'm certain that that's not the case, and you have
S1: to figure out the way to leverage and utilize the
S1: chip on your shoulder in whatever form it comes to you,
S1: even though it might come to you in a different
S1: way than it comes to somebody else. Mhm.
S2: Absolutely. So having grown up in in Vancouver, Canada, I
S2: actually had attended college in the US as an international student,
S2: and I just remember working 7 to 8 different part
S2: time jobs at any point in time during college to
S2: try to pay for tuition and room and board, whereas
S2: a lot of the other friends who had attended the
S2: same school, they had been local students. and as a result,
S2: they just paid at least ten x less tuition and
S2: had not just nearly as many things that they needed
S2: to do to just pay for tuition. And I think
S2: that's just one of many things. Each of us have
S2: our own struggles. Some people are born with certain disabilities,
S2: others are born with certain family structures. And I think
S2: we all have these different experiences that uniquely shape who
S2: we are outside of work. A lot of my time,
S2: at least within the space of giving back, has been
S2: really spent on mental health related topics. And I think
S2: for folks who are born with mental health challenges or
S2: born into a family with mental health challenges, that's a
S2: whole slew of different circumstances that you grow up with.
S2: So I think it's so important to think about what's possible,
S2: not from a what does my circumstances allow me to,
S2: but rather where can I go? And then I think
S2: this is really going back to first principles. What do
S2: I want to do. And then let me take the
S2: small steps to getting there rather than. Well, given these limitations,
S2: I don't think that's a possibility. I'll back out. I
S2: think that's a lot of how you talk to yourself
S2: is so important. I think being kind to yourself and
S2: telling yourself that everything is possible is a very important
S2: piece of the story, too. I wouldn't say by any
S2: stretch that my career path was certain. In fact, it
S2: was really from these challenges during school that I had
S2: realized a lot of other people also struggled the same
S2: way that I did, where they needed to work multiple
S2: part time jobs. They didn't know how to negotiate for rent.
S2: They had no idea how auto loans worked. And it's
S2: from there that my first startup had emerged. And that
S2: kind of threw me into the world of entrepreneurship and
S2: investing in entrepreneurs.
S1: Can you tell us a little bit more about how
S1: your first venture came to be? I know you just
S1: gave us a little sprinkling of that, but tell us
S1: more about what the business did and how you structured it.
S2: Yeah, so I had two other really good friends during
S2: school where I realized that three of us, whenever we
S2: got together and talked about very similar challenges, where I
S2: was working a ton of different part time jobs. Another
S2: one of my friends was working in the dorms to
S2: cover for room and board. Another really good friend was
S2: on a scholarship, but the scholarship wasn't attached to a
S2: specific amount and as tuition went up, it made school
S2: less and less affordable for her. So the three of
S2: us would get together on a regular basis and just
S2: share best practices with each other. How did you negotiate
S2: something as small as a phone bill all the way
S2: up to? Do you have any hacks for thinking about
S2: how student loans work? We came to a point in
S2: time where we realized that student loans were, uh, for
S2: the very first time in history, exceeding auto loans in
S2: the US. So we realized that it really wasn't a
S2: small thing and we wanted to do more. Can we
S2: just design a course that would share our learnings and
S2: best practices that we would share with each other to
S2: other students in the same school? So we went to
S2: our faculty members, written up this proposal for why we
S2: think a course on money management and financial literacy is
S2: so important, and eventually ended up pushing through this course
S2: and got a room allotted to us for 35 people
S2: for the semester. We had no idea how to do
S2: any marketing, so we just kind of put this Google
S2: form out there and really without any marketing at all
S2: on our behalf. And it was just organic word of mouth.
S2: We had almost 400 applications come in for the class,
S2: and even after we emailed everyone saying we didn't have
S2: space in the class, we still had about 170 people
S2: show up on the first day of class trying to
S2: cram into this tiny 30 person classroom. And so that's
S2: when we realized that there was an opportunity here for
S2: us to turn this potentially into a much bigger business,
S2: where we would start by teaching content as well as
S2: turn this into software so that we could provide similar
S2: curriculum for other universities, as well as for other financial institutions.
S2: We had no idea how sales worked, and in the
S2: very early days we would just cold call people, show
S2: up to conferences, try to be very proactive, try to
S2: find the best point of contact, ask for referrals and
S2: intros wherever we can, and really rely on the kindness
S2: of people who are willing to guide us and show
S2: us where we go. And one of the things that
S2: till this day, I absolutely do myself and very much
S2: appreciate about the culture in Silicon Valley, is that it's
S2: all about bringing people up with you so you can
S2: absolutely cold outreach to someone on LinkedIn and expect that
S2: they might be willing to grab a coffee with you
S2: and share how they had gotten there, because they had
S2: also gotten there from help of other strangers and really
S2: from kindness of others. So we had learned so much
S2: during that time and ended up selling into a lot
S2: of large banks, including Goldman Sachs, Wells Fargo, Bank of America.
S2: We also got a ton of no's from amazing companies too,
S2: and we didn't really understand why. At the beginning. So
S2: wherever possible, we would ask people for feedback like we
S2: really respect your answer. We just love to hear why
S2: this wasn't the right fit for you at this time.
S2: We sold into universities, we sold into these banks and
S2: learned a ton from this process. So it was really
S2: from here that I had even any exposure to the
S2: world of finance and banks. And prior to this, it
S2: just felt like something that was really far away. I
S2: had thought that I might become a historian or go
S2: into some sort of public policy field prior to this.
S2: So I think it also tells us how great life
S2: can be when we take our paths down for unexpected turns.
S1: Is such an incredible story. When you put that with, okay,
S1: you were a founder in this, and that has to
S1: now give you such insight into the investment strategies that
S1: you are now deploying as general partner. Do you pronounce
S1: it io VC?
S2: Yes, you got it perfectly. So io vc. Mhm. So
S2: we are acronym stands for of course innovation overflow venture capital.
S2: And we this is a very geeky name named after
S2: Stack Overflow, which is a platform where engineers and programmers
S2: will go on to to share advice with each other.
S2: And the reason why we had named after this is
S2: because we think people in entrepreneurship and in investing need
S2: to learn, share and build together as well. So, um,
S2: we had previously been branded as agile VC because we
S2: wanted to be very quick moving. What we realized was
S2: that the word was agile. It was very difficult to
S2: pronounce in some foreign cultures, and so we eventually rebranded
S2: ourselves to for phonetic letters. I share this very short
S2: story because I think in my earlier in my career,
S2: I had overlooked how important marketing and branding was to
S2: any sort of platform, brand or community. And I think
S2: this is something that I learned so much about from
S2: picking what I thought was a really cool name, calling
S2: ourselves agile VC, to realizing that it's important to be
S2: inclusive in our target audience and in facing a very
S2: diverse audience to rebranding and all of that learned so
S2: much from the experience.
S1: What would you say the biggest takeaway that you've had over?
S1: Let's see, how long have you have you been? I see,
S1: so you're six years in seven years, six years.
S2: In seven years, including the planning year.
S1: Which definitely counts the planning years. Probably the hardest year,
S1: I would imagine. Was is that true or is it
S1: is it harder as it grows? How is that kind
S1: of changed over the last seven years?
S2: You know, I think people think that, um, it gets
S2: easier over time. I feel like every year it's tackling
S2: new challenges, and that's what makes this job so much fun.
S2: I think investing in entrepreneurs is inspiring in many ways. One,
S2: we get to work with some of the most inspiring
S2: and smartest people. Number two, we get to learn from
S2: their best practices and help share our experiences with them
S2: to hopefully help other early stage entrepreneurs and founders avoid
S2: the same mistakes that we had made in the past.
S2: And I think three investors, what they really do is
S2: put their money where their mouth is and invest money
S2: into what the future can and should look like. It's
S2: a responsibility that we take very seriously as well, because
S2: if we want to build a future that is more inclusive,
S2: that is more innovative, that is better than we really
S2: have to think long and hard about what we're doing
S2: now so that we can get there in X number
S2: of years. So I think we spend a lot of
S2: time thinking about what can the future look like, what
S2: should the future look like? What criteria are we following?
S2: Are we investing if we want to see a future
S2: that is diverse, are we investing and backing in diverse founders?
S2: So all of those are things that I think I'm
S2: incredibly lucky to get to do. In fact, the other
S2: day I was having a conversation with a very close friend,
S2: and we were talking about if we had to summarize
S2: our jobs in verbs, what would be some of the
S2: top things that we would say? I think in my job,
S2: really the top things are to meet people and to learn.
S1: When you think about your role compared to the other
S1: team members in your organization, how would you prioritize and
S1: kind of structure what you do day to day versus
S1: what you're not excited about doing? Because it's either not
S1: your strength or there are people that are just better
S1: suited in your environment to do those things.
S2: I realized over time that there are things that I'm
S2: incredibly good at, but there's also many, many other things
S2: that I am just horrible at. So I think finding
S2: the right business partners who can check your blind spots
S2: and who can really help support you in those ways
S2: are so important. So I've realized over time that there's
S2: a few things that I'm not good at. Number one, um,
S2: I am not very good at having really short conversations
S2: with people. I love getting to know people in depth.
S2: I love understanding how they grew up, who they are,
S2: how they were shaped to be, who they are. And
S2: I love finding out the background stories, the less told things.
S2: I love asking about what didn't make it into your
S2: pitch deck, what almost made it, but that you took
S2: it out, and how does that work? I love doing that.
S2: At the same time, I think my business partner is
S2: really good at keeping to time and making sure that
S2: we hit the milestones that we need to in reasonable time.
S2: So I think being able to identify strengths and weaknesses
S2: and realizing what you're good at and finding someone else
S2: who can help check for those spots are so important.
S2: So I'm incredibly lucky to have met my business partner
S2: and to be able to work with him across all
S2: of these years, so I think that's something really important
S2: to think about. One of the things in my entrepreneurship
S2: class at Berkeley that I always start by sharing with
S2: folks is that oftentimes in entrepreneurship, the average time it
S2: takes to an exit of some sort, whether it is
S2: getting acquired or going public even, or coming to a
S2: place where you're getting to stable revenue, where you have
S2: somewhat of a scalable business model, where you don't have
S2: to work as hard. Um, that average time period for
S2: entrepreneurs is about ten years, and that is longer than
S2: the average American marriage, which means that whatever it is
S2: that you do, finding the right business partner in many
S2: ways is harder than finding the person that you want
S2: to marry, because you really have to be certain that
S2: this person is the right fit across all of these
S2: different ways. So I like framing it, especially for students
S2: this way, um, particularly college level and graduate level students,
S2: because I think it's important to think about life and
S2: career on a very long term, decades long term kind
S2: of time axes rather than just in the span of
S2: months or years.
S1: So smart. And, you know, especially with you having started
S1: the is it calcify? Is that the I'm sure you
S1: had just no one was teaching you at that time
S1: operating agreements and how the formal structure, unless they were,
S1: were they did you have that like just totally tight
S1: and clean from an equity structure standpoint?
S2: You know, I think first time around everybody makes similar mistakes.
S1: And yeah.
S2: So I think in our case, well now I think
S2: there's a ton of content out there where it's possible
S2: to see just general best practices for how to lay
S2: out equity structures and all of that. I would say
S2: back when we had started the company, there wasn't too
S2: much information out there. There was a clear majority, 40 um, shareholder,
S2: which was great because we need a clear decision maker
S2: to break ties, if any, and to make decisions moving forward. And, um,
S2: I do think it's important to figure out over time
S2: what you prefer as well. Some people think that it's
S2: important for them to be the CEO and to call
S2: the shots, but at the same time, they might not
S2: yet be in a place where they feel really comfortable
S2: with making all of these big decisions. So I think
S2: having a serious, self-reflective conversation or thinking session where you
S2: really ask yourself, do I want to call the shots?
S2: Is it helpful or is it better for the business
S2: in order to call the shots? I think those are
S2: all really important pieces. But to answer your question directly,
S2: I don't know other than the fact that we had
S2: a clear majority shareholder, I don't know that we followed
S2: best practices for how to do equity.
S1: And that's kind of the cool thing. And you see this,
S1: I'm sure, every single day where when you're starting a company,
S1: it's really the last thing that you're thinking about. Unless
S1: you are, you know, just you've done this before. You're sophisticated.
S1: But when some of these earlier startups take place and
S1: really start to form or even, you know, a family
S1: business that just gets passed down from kid to kid
S1: or from parent to kid, there's just not a lot
S1: of thought. Because the reality is the business is, in
S1: many cases, starting because they're trying to solve a need
S1: in the marketplace and they're not thinking about, how do
S1: I create wealth, how do I exit this, how do
S1: I structure this to allow for a board and executives
S1: and just team members to be able to help? It's
S1: just kind of bootstrapping and figuring it out, which is
S1: what's so cool about starting a business. But then also
S1: what can be scary when it comes to the things
S1: that you just you don't know what you don't know.
S2: Absolutely. And what makes being a founder, whether you're running
S2: a small, medium sized enterprise, or you're running a technology
S2: enabled startup. Either way, what's most exciting is that you
S2: get to explore the unknown, right? Because you don't know
S2: what you don't know. It's a fun process to start
S2: figuring out what the rest of the world might look like.
S1: Yeah. Or else I would think it'd just be paralyzing
S1: if it was any other way. Because if if you
S1: really knew, if you had an idea of what you
S1: don't know, I think most people would just not even
S1: want to go down that path, because there are so
S1: many stories of just challenging predicaments that people find themselves
S1: in because they don't necessarily know. And ideally, there are
S1: people out there who are giving guidance and advice and
S1: sharing wisdom and getting the attention of people so that
S1: they can at least structure it properly so that no
S1: relationships are ruined and nothing, nothing bad happens. But unfortunately,
S1: it's just not. It's not the reality yet. Today.
S2: To add on to the last point that you shared
S2: it just as a personal thing that I do, if
S2: it's relevant for all the listeners, I'd like to think
S2: about my habits in two buckets consumptive habits versus productive habits.
S2: A lot of the times we fall into this default
S2: of consumptive habits like, I love food and I consume
S2: a lot of food, or I love movies and I
S2: consume a lot of movies. And over time, what I've
S2: tried to do is think about where I'm being productive.
S2: For example, if I eat really good food and I
S2: write up a note, even if it's posting on Yelp,
S2: for example, um, as like a mini food critic, I
S2: think that is a small act of producing something. Or
S2: if I love movies and I write a small commentary
S2: about my thoughts on the movie, that's being productive in
S2: a way, it doesn't even have to be as small
S2: as that. It could be as small or as big
S2: as something that is core related to the company that
S2: you're running. But I bring that up because on this
S2: topic of we don't know what, we don't know if
S2: we just dedicate a small portion, even if it's like
S2: this week or for once a year I'm going to
S2: dedicate myself to productive habits of learning about something and
S2: writing something about this new thing that I've learned. I
S2: think that really brings us very far. Even if it's
S2: not something that we repeat on a monthly basis, but
S2: like once a year, that's a really great way of
S2: helping us explore what we don't know, that we don't know.
S1: I love that I'm going to use that. That is fantastic.
S1: Consumptive versus productive habits. And literally taking a note on
S1: my stickies as you talk. I have two final questions.
S1: First question, walk us through a brief overview of a
S1: day in your life.
S2: So I've always had more of a sporadic schedule. I
S2: am just by nature a very energetic person, so I
S2: can function well on not a lot of sleep, so
S2: I used to just have back to back meetings all
S2: day and then keep on going until really late at
S2: night and then ready for bed. And that's a day.
S2: But over time, I've learned so much from just how
S2: to run and structure a better schedule. Now what I
S2: try to do is wake up early. Um, ideally before
S2: everyone else is up. So I have a I have
S2: time to, uh, really reflect on what my top priorities
S2: are for the day and hopefully get to Inbox Zero.
S2: Then I try to do deeper work earlier during the
S2: day rather than meetings, because those are some of my productive,
S2: most productive hours. And then later on, from afternoon onwards,
S2: when I usually would start to get tired, I try
S2: to do meetings. Then because I derive a lot of
S2: energy from meeting with other people. So I try to
S2: schedule things that I get a lot of energy out
S2: of when I am most tired, and then towards evening time, it's,
S2: you know, again, doing follow ups or any to do items.
S2: As a result of the meetings that I did in
S2: the afternoon. And then of course, towards the end of
S2: the day, I try to set up time, set aside
S2: for exercise, for walking my dog, for spending quality time
S2: with family, for just enjoying outdoor time in nature. Um,
S2: and then I try to have no screen time for
S2: about an hour prior to going to bed. That's the
S2: ideal schedule. I don't know how much of my time
S2: I've managed to stick to that schedule. Um, I'm very
S2: good at being spontaneous and haven't been as good at
S2: sticking to routines, but that is what I'm striving towards. Um,
S2: the last thing I would add on this is that
S2: one of the top things I learned from a mentor
S2: years ago that brought a lot more peace to my
S2: mind is this concept of a weighted average week. So
S2: instead of trying to get to the perfect day every
S2: single day and hitting all of these things in a day,
S2: that's just too much pressure. So I learned from her
S2: to think about my week being weighted over time, so
S2: that today maybe I've done great on work. tomorrow. Maybe
S2: I do great on exercise the day after. Maybe I'm
S2: great at family and quality time with my significant other,
S2: and over the course of a week, I would have
S2: hit all the major things that I wanted to hear,
S2: that I wanted to hit. And that significantly takes pressure
S2: off of having to have a perfect day and being
S2: able to focus on different priorities throughout a week.
S1: Amazing. I've never heard of that, but I really like
S1: that so that you don't necessarily feel like you've just
S1: blown a whole day just because you didn't do two
S1: of the five things, or two of the six things.
S1: I like that. What's next for you when you look
S1: at your career over the next 5 to 10 years?
S1: Tell us about where you see the future, where you
S1: see your work leading and what you're excited about that
S1: you're working on right now.
S2: Venture capital is really a long term commitment, so you
S2: wouldn't really go and become an investor unless that's what
S2: you knew you wanted to do for at least the
S2: next decade. So for me, as far as I could
S2: see ahead, continuing to be an investor and growing to
S2: hopefully be a better investor and more value added to
S2: the entrepreneurs that we do work with is definitely a
S2: long term career goal. Outside of my full time role
S2: on the venture side and just learning and becoming better,
S2: I definitely want to continue to give back by educating.
S2: So I've always taught part time outside of my different roles,
S2: and I do think it is extremely rewarding of an experience,
S2: because now I feel like I learn way more from
S2: my students than I'm teaching sometimes. So I get about now,
S2: at least in my faculty role at Berkeley, I get
S2: about 60% undergrads and 40% grad students. The grad students
S2: are more quote unquote normally aged. Whereas my undergrad students,
S2: I get everything from students who are born in zero
S2: four and oh five, and they are incredibly young, but
S2: also incredibly inspiring. Many of them have had prior startup experience,
S2: have even exited from companies or have interned at all
S2: of these amazing companies. I look at them and I
S2: feel so much more optimistic about where the future of
S2: the world is going. They're very mission driven. They are
S2: extremely passionate about what they do, energetic about changing the
S2: world for the better, and all of that, I continue.
S2: I hope I can continue to give back in that way,
S2: and continue to be inspired by and learn from all
S2: of my students. So when I look forward in my career,
S2: definitely continuing to be an investor and then teaching as
S2: well as learning in my role as faculty.
S1: That's amazing. Well, where can the listeners find you? What
S1: is the best place for them to connect with you?
S2: Yeah, I'm very active on LinkedIn, so if I can
S2: be helpful with anything that any of the listeners are
S2: working on, please feel free to reach out on LinkedIn.
S2: I really do mean that. Um, and in addition to
S2: that I mentioned earlier, I sit on the board of
S2: decode if anyone is interested in volunteering and getting involved.
S2: What I think is incredibly cool is that for all
S2: the events that we do, there's always both a public
S2: facing component as well as a private roundtable discussion segment
S2: where for all the speakers that we've brought in and
S2: we've brought in some really cool people, including the CEO
S2: and founder of zoom, the CEO of Google X, and
S2: just really, really cool people in the space that are
S2: driving the frontiers of technology and innovation. We had the
S2: founder of Siri a while ago. They always do a
S2: very small roundtable at the end of the public facing event,
S2: where it's just a handful of less than a dozen people,
S2: and they get to interact in a very small group
S2: setting with our speaker. So if anyone who is listening
S2: here is just interested in getting involved and participating in
S2: these smaller group gathering sessions, I think that's another great
S2: way to plug in. And of course, any university network
S2: will always have classes that are open. Berkeley, for example,
S2: I have a ton of folks who have audited or
S2: sat in on my classes. So I always encourage people
S2: to reach out if they're interested in plugging in in
S2: any way. And I'm really excited to continue to see
S2: where you take your community as well, because I think
S2: this is really meaningful work that you do.
S1: Well, thank you for your time. Thank you for sharing
S1: your expertise. I know the listeners are going to love this.
S1: Make sure to subscribe to check out everything that she
S1: is up to. Connect with her and follow her on LinkedIn.
S1: It has been such an honor. Such a pleasure. Thank
S1: you for being on work, woman, and I will talk
S1: to you soon.
S2: Thank you so much, Natalie.