WEBVTT - EP 61 | Forbes 30 Under 30: Making Venture Capital Accessible with Shuo Chen 0:00:00.110 --> 0:00:04.189 Welcome back to work woman. Today is an exciting day 0:00:04.190 --> 0:00:06.800 because you guys are going to geek out on the 0:00:06.830 --> 0:00:10.039 guests that I have. As somebody who's coming on to work, 0:00:10.039 --> 0:00:13.790 women in this Forbes 30 under 30 series, you guys 0:00:13.790 --> 0:00:16.340 are going to get the opportunity to meet Shuo Chen, 0:00:16.370 --> 0:00:18.920 who I was just telling her before the show started. 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:23.180 I've spent hours, like hours and hours researching just all 0:00:23.210 --> 0:00:27.680 of the things that she has done. And I'm beyond impressed. 0:00:27.680 --> 0:00:30.380 And you're like one of the first people that I've 0:00:30.380 --> 0:00:33.710 actually looked through that I feel like is totally ten-x, 0:00:33.710 --> 0:00:36.170 and you probably don't even know what Ten-x is, but 0:00:36.170 --> 0:00:38.930 that's something that's big in this community of listeners who 0:00:38.930 --> 0:00:43.520 watch and listen to this podcast. So without further ado, 0:00:43.550 --> 0:00:47.269 welcome Shuo Chen to the Work Women podcast. Shuo, how 0:00:47.300 --> 0:00:48.530 are you doing today? 0:00:48.830 --> 0:00:52.729 I am doing great and thank you so much for hosting. 0:00:52.729 --> 0:00:56.840 It is incredibly kind of you to share such an introduction, 0:00:56.840 --> 0:01:00.030 and I'm really excited to share more about what I'm 0:01:00.030 --> 0:01:02.340 working on, but also to learn more about the incredible 0:01:02.340 --> 0:01:04.740 work that you've done and the community that you've built. 0:01:04.920 --> 0:01:07.380 I have 45 questions here, and I was like, which 0:01:07.380 --> 0:01:09.869 are the questions that I'm actually going to ask and 0:01:09.870 --> 0:01:13.229 actually give people a great starting point for who you 0:01:13.230 --> 0:01:16.830 are and what you've accomplished. So just I guess, where 0:01:16.860 --> 0:01:19.080 were you born, where were you raised, and how did 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:21.780 you get started in your career? 0:01:21.810 --> 0:01:26.190 I am a fourth generation Chinese American. My great grandfather 0:01:26.190 --> 0:01:28.619 was the first one who came to the States way 0:01:28.620 --> 0:01:32.640 back in 1910. He had done his PhD in education, 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:35.340 and we've kind of been back and forth as a 0:01:35.340 --> 0:01:38.760 family ever since. So I was born in Beijing myself, 0:01:38.790 --> 0:01:42.090 though my sister was born here and grew up on 0:01:42.090 --> 0:01:45.810 the West coast, had spent some time in Vancouver, Canada, 0:01:45.810 --> 0:01:48.690 which is also, as I was sharing with you earlier, Natalie, 0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:51.900 where I'm spending some time now, spending time with my 0:01:51.900 --> 0:01:55.380 grandparents who are still retired in this area and then 0:01:55.380 --> 0:01:59.040 also am based predominantly out of San Francisco Bay area. 0:01:59.280 --> 0:02:01.620 What I'm working on now full time, I'm on the 0:02:01.620 --> 0:02:05.220 venture side, so I run an early stage fund that 0:02:05.220 --> 0:02:08.310 focuses on investing in startups based out of Silicon Valley, 0:02:08.310 --> 0:02:12.060 and I also teach as faculty at UC Berkeley. 0:02:12.750 --> 0:02:15.840 How did you get started in venture capital? 0:02:16.139 --> 0:02:20.610 Really stumbled into it by chance. That's the honest answer. 0:02:20.639 --> 0:02:23.430 Everyone stumbles into it. There's no like when you were 0:02:23.460 --> 0:02:26.610 eight years old. I have a hard time believing anyone's like, 0:02:26.610 --> 0:02:29.250 I'm going to be a venture capitalist when I grow up. 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:32.549 Yeah, no, I think it would be kind of cool 0:02:32.550 --> 0:02:36.240 if that were a thing. And I say that because 0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:40.380 I really do feel like representation, especially for young girls, 0:02:40.380 --> 0:02:43.620 matter a lot. I think I'm incredibly lucky to have 0:02:43.620 --> 0:02:46.470 just seen some really cool role models when I was 0:02:46.470 --> 0:02:50.070 growing up, because I would have never imagined being an 0:02:50.070 --> 0:02:52.950 investor is even a possibility had I not had that 0:02:52.950 --> 0:02:55.709 exposure later on in my career. But when I was young, 0:02:55.750 --> 0:02:59.170 I always really was. A very curious child would get 0:02:59.169 --> 0:03:01.990 myself in trouble a lot, but would get to work 0:03:01.990 --> 0:03:05.320 on just kind of cranking out different solutions to problems 0:03:05.320 --> 0:03:10.900 that other people usually deem as either giving up or impossible. And, uh, 0:03:11.139 --> 0:03:13.510 that led me down to a path of a lot 0:03:13.540 --> 0:03:16.690 of exploration where I didn't really know what I wanted 0:03:16.690 --> 0:03:19.239 to study, so took a bit of classes here and there, 0:03:19.270 --> 0:03:21.790 trying to figure out what I wanted to do, and 0:03:21.790 --> 0:03:25.329 that took me down eventually, the path of entrepreneurship, where 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:28.869 my business partner and I together had started a company 0:03:28.870 --> 0:03:32.559 that was really selling into large universities as well as 0:03:32.590 --> 0:03:37.780 large banking institutions. After our startup exited, I went into 0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:41.470 work on Wall Street myself, covered technology during that time, 0:03:41.470 --> 0:03:45.610 and really missed working with startups and founders. So seven 0:03:45.610 --> 0:03:48.430 years ago came back to the venture side. Uh, but 0:03:48.550 --> 0:03:52.600 to your point, earlier on representation for young kids, for 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:54.780 role models growing up, I do think it would be 0:03:54.780 --> 0:03:59.130 so cool if someone listening to this would go back 0:03:59.130 --> 0:04:01.170 and talk to say their kids and say, you know, 0:04:01.200 --> 0:04:03.750 there are so many cool careers. Let me give you 0:04:03.750 --> 0:04:05.790 a sense of what might be possible. That would be 0:04:05.790 --> 0:04:06.390 so cool. 0:04:06.480 --> 0:04:11.460 How do most people even stumble into it? Right. It's like, 0:04:11.490 --> 0:04:14.430 unless your parents are having this conversation with you or 0:04:14.430 --> 0:04:17.159 to what you said, role models. Like there are people 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:20.880 that you know in this space. Venture capital seems like 0:04:20.880 --> 0:04:28.080 it's almost this untouchable, smart person, smart and well-connected person's, uh, 0:04:28.380 --> 0:04:32.670 career path. It doesn't it doesn't seem just from the, 0:04:32.700 --> 0:04:36.089 I guess, PR around it, like it's very accessible to people. 0:04:36.089 --> 0:04:38.729 And my guess is you would probably argue that it's 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:43.290 absolutely accessible to anybody who was interested in in going 0:04:43.290 --> 0:04:44.400 down that path. 0:04:44.550 --> 0:04:49.530 Absolutely. Absolutely accessible. Not easy to access though. So those 0:04:49.529 --> 0:04:52.440 are two slightly different things. And I say that because 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:55.980 I'm a former founder and now I invest in founders. 0:04:55.980 --> 0:05:00.570 So that has certainly made the accessibility piece easier because 0:05:00.570 --> 0:05:02.940 when we look at companies, I can relate to what 0:05:02.940 --> 0:05:05.610 it was like when I was running a company myself. 0:05:05.610 --> 0:05:09.450 Whereas I think with hard work, it's possible to get 0:05:09.450 --> 0:05:12.210 in for folks who come from more traditional backgrounds where 0:05:12.210 --> 0:05:16.560 they didn't have the luxury of getting exposure to venture capital. 0:05:16.560 --> 0:05:20.159 For example, during their earlier operating days, they had bootstrapped 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:22.860 the whole thing. For example, they might not have had 0:05:22.860 --> 0:05:27.089 the same ease of accessibility to if they wanted to 0:05:27.089 --> 0:05:29.219 become an investor. So one of the things that I 0:05:29.220 --> 0:05:32.460 do now, outside of my full time investing role is, um, 0:05:32.460 --> 0:05:34.770 serving on the board of this nonprofit that we had 0:05:34.770 --> 0:05:37.680 helped co-found, where one of the programs that we run 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:40.470 is a venture fellowship program for folks who are ten 0:05:40.500 --> 0:05:43.470 plus years into their respective careers, never had exposure to 0:05:43.500 --> 0:05:46.170 venture now, heard about venture for the first time and 0:05:46.170 --> 0:05:48.270 want to get involved in some capacity. And we help 0:05:48.270 --> 0:05:51.150 those folks make a career switch or at least learn 0:05:51.150 --> 0:05:52.979 more about what venture capital is like and how to 0:05:52.980 --> 0:05:53.790 get involved. 0:05:53.820 --> 0:05:57.420 So spectacular. I mean, I have some questions for you 0:05:57.420 --> 0:06:00.060 about how you prioritize everything that you're doing. I want 0:06:00.089 --> 0:06:02.880 to wait. I want to give those, like tidbits later 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:05.850 in the podcast, because I'm so fascinated by this idea 0:06:05.850 --> 0:06:11.370 of how somebody gets started in VC, but then also 0:06:11.400 --> 0:06:14.910 the person listening to this, like the audience member who 0:06:14.910 --> 0:06:19.530 is like on their drive, on their run, maybe working out, 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:22.440 maybe taking a walk, whatever the person is doing right 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:26.279 now is likely a business owner, small business owner. So 0:06:26.310 --> 0:06:30.210 Carnal Ventures and the company that I work with, um, 0:06:30.330 --> 0:06:32.730 that's who we help. We help the small business owner 0:06:32.730 --> 0:06:36.030 in specifically the United States of America, help grow their 0:06:36.029 --> 0:06:39.989 business from likely they're starting at $1 million business. They 0:06:39.990 --> 0:06:42.510 probably had their business for a handful of years. It 0:06:42.510 --> 0:06:45.450 might even be a family business. And they have aspirations 0:06:45.450 --> 0:06:49.289 to grow their business from 1 million to 5 million 0:06:49.300 --> 0:06:51.940 And then from 5 million to 10 million. And so 0:06:51.940 --> 0:06:54.250 they're listening to this podcast in order to understand how 0:06:54.250 --> 0:06:57.370 do they go about scaling and growing their business. And 0:06:57.370 --> 0:07:00.130 we normally go through this very traditional route of how 0:07:00.130 --> 0:07:04.300 do you optimize your people, and how do you add 0:07:04.300 --> 0:07:08.170 marketing to the equation that actually targets the right customer 0:07:08.170 --> 0:07:10.780 so that you get more sales, that grows your business. 0:07:10.780 --> 0:07:14.200 But on the VC side, how does that become accessible 0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:18.070 to a small business owner operating in today's climate? 0:07:18.430 --> 0:07:22.300 Yeah. That's amazing. First of all, really incredible work that 0:07:22.300 --> 0:07:26.560 you've done to build this community. And to everyone who's listening, I, I, 0:07:26.590 --> 0:07:30.370 as a former founder, always admire people who go choose 0:07:30.370 --> 0:07:32.410 to take the difficult route and choose to start their 0:07:32.410 --> 0:07:35.560 own business. Starting from zero and from scratch is always 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:38.290 one of the most difficult things, and even trying to 0:07:38.290 --> 0:07:41.350 bring innovation into, for example, a family business is not 0:07:41.350 --> 0:07:43.990 easy at all. It's certainly a lot easier to work 0:07:43.990 --> 0:07:47.590 for someone else. So really, kudos. And to answer your 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:51.410 question about how to learn more about venture capital, I 0:07:51.410 --> 0:07:55.910 think now with is particularly post pandemic, with a lot 0:07:55.910 --> 0:07:59.869 more things going virtual, there's a lot more accessible content 0:07:59.870 --> 0:08:02.540 than ever before. If you wanted to learn about venture 0:08:02.570 --> 0:08:06.050 capital as an industry or even emerging technologies and figure out, 0:08:06.230 --> 0:08:09.380 I know you mentioned Ten-x, and I'm not sure if 0:08:09.380 --> 0:08:11.180 this is the same context in which you use it, 0:08:11.180 --> 0:08:15.950 but how emerging technologies could help scale a business ten-x 0:08:15.950 --> 0:08:19.250 and leverage the power of technology to automate things and 0:08:19.250 --> 0:08:25.280 bring in, um, more optimization to a company than ever before. 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:29.900 So one of the top resources that I personally always 0:08:29.900 --> 0:08:33.920 enjoy is going to all these major universities that are 0:08:33.920 --> 0:08:36.979 known for their technology and innovation hubs. And I say 0:08:36.980 --> 0:08:41.630 that because a university is a great way of attracting talent, 0:08:41.660 --> 0:08:45.080 not just at a early stage from college level students, 0:08:45.080 --> 0:08:48.199 but all the way up to executive programs, to folks 0:08:48.200 --> 0:08:51.260 who are working in large scale institutions. So you have 0:08:51.260 --> 0:08:55.370 a widespread, uh, spectrum of content that may be interesting 0:08:55.370 --> 0:08:58.730 and are relevant. So I would certainly recommend looking at 0:08:58.730 --> 0:09:04.819 your local university or your local educational institution and trying 0:09:04.820 --> 0:09:09.170 to figure out what, uh, in-person or even virtual events 0:09:09.170 --> 0:09:12.350 and activities are going on. So the nonprofit that I 0:09:12.350 --> 0:09:15.680 mentioned earlier, that has a venture fellowship program, I have 0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:18.320 the fortune of serving on this board. This nonprofit is 0:09:18.320 --> 0:09:22.310 called Decode. It is affiliated with Berkeley and Stanford. It's 0:09:22.340 --> 0:09:26.059 it started really out as the largest technology and innovation 0:09:26.059 --> 0:09:29.780 community that's co-hosted between Berkeley and Stanford. But since the pandemic, 0:09:29.780 --> 0:09:33.500 have really scaled and grown way beyond the two universities. 0:09:33.500 --> 0:09:36.740 And there's a ton of conversations that happen within this 0:09:36.740 --> 0:09:42.320 particular ecosystem that are really interesting and are oftentimes extending 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:44.850 across multiple communities. For example, if you want to learn 0:09:44.850 --> 0:09:48.750 about venture capital as specific to blockchain and cryptocurrencies, well, 0:09:48.750 --> 0:09:51.510 there's plenty of recent conversations there around that you want 0:09:51.540 --> 0:09:54.990 to learn about venture, particularly as it applies to education 0:09:54.990 --> 0:09:59.190 technologies and how to scale up an education startup. There's 0:09:59.220 --> 0:10:01.860 a ton of conversation around there, so for folks who 0:10:01.860 --> 0:10:05.310 are interested, it's definitely possible to find videos available on 0:10:05.309 --> 0:10:10.229 YouTube online. Beyond non-profits and universities, I think another really 0:10:10.230 --> 0:10:13.530 good channel is to directly go onto the websites and 0:10:13.530 --> 0:10:16.680 platforms of all of these funds. More funds than ever 0:10:16.679 --> 0:10:20.130 before are more public about how they invest, what they 0:10:20.130 --> 0:10:23.220 invest in, and sometimes might even share some of the 0:10:23.220 --> 0:10:26.850 investment memos that they've written to conduct analysis on the 0:10:26.850 --> 0:10:28.829 kinds of companies that they're looking at. So I think 0:10:28.830 --> 0:10:31.830 it's a great way of leveraging that to learn about 0:10:31.830 --> 0:10:34.500 what is venture capital, how does venture capital work and 0:10:34.500 --> 0:10:36.420 what are best practices to leverage. 0:10:36.690 --> 0:10:39.809 One of the videos I watched was you talking about 0:10:39.809 --> 0:10:42.480 the blockchain. And one of the things as I talk 0:10:42.490 --> 0:10:46.540 to small business owners daily, that I think that there's 0:10:46.540 --> 0:10:52.180 this gap between is how small business could leverage that 0:10:52.179 --> 0:10:57.429 sort of technology. As you're talking through innovative technologies, how 0:10:57.429 --> 0:11:01.690 does the mindset of a small business owner shift to 0:11:01.720 --> 0:11:05.439 even having the acknowledgment that that is something that is 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:08.620 accessible to me. Therefore, I'm going to go learn about 0:11:08.620 --> 0:11:12.130 this new thing that could help my business before it's, 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:14.290 you know, not not that it's too late, but before 0:11:14.290 --> 0:11:17.860 it's so widely used that it's forced upon people and 0:11:17.860 --> 0:11:20.020 it just becomes commonplace. Like, how could they get a 0:11:20.020 --> 0:11:24.220 little bit of an edge and change that mindset earlier? 0:11:24.309 --> 0:11:26.949 Mhm. I'm so glad you asked that question because it's 0:11:26.950 --> 0:11:30.160 all about how do we give small business owners somewhat 0:11:30.190 --> 0:11:33.370 of an unfair advantage or a competitive edge ahead of 0:11:33.370 --> 0:11:36.610 everyone else. Right. So I love that mindset. I think 0:11:36.610 --> 0:11:40.970 a lot of it is about digesting or breaking down 0:11:41.000 --> 0:11:44.239 a big idea into digestible pieces. So, for example, with 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:47.720 something like blockchain, I think there's a lot more conversation 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:51.860 now in mainstream media than ever before. But still, very 0:11:51.860 --> 0:11:55.490 few people have taken the steps to just hands on 0:11:55.490 --> 0:11:59.390 go beyond buy a bitcoin or buy Ethereum to say, 0:11:59.390 --> 0:12:02.630 how can I think about using that in my respective business? 0:12:02.660 --> 0:12:05.600 I do think it is picking your battles, and once 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:08.090 you pick something that sounds interesting that you want to 0:12:08.120 --> 0:12:10.970 learn more about, then figuring out, how can I make 0:12:10.970 --> 0:12:13.370 this so small that it's something that I can commit 0:12:13.370 --> 0:12:15.860 to doing, and it could be so small as to 0:12:15.890 --> 0:12:18.680 let me sign up to attend an event live and 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:21.620 actually show up. And once I show up, let me 0:12:21.620 --> 0:12:24.920 actually ask a question. And once I ask a question, 0:12:24.920 --> 0:12:28.370 let me take the pains of following up with the 0:12:28.370 --> 0:12:32.750 speaker afterwards. So you would be surprised how many people 0:12:32.780 --> 0:12:36.890 are openly sharing their contact information online, or how easily 0:12:36.890 --> 0:12:40.790 reachable they are on LinkedIn. And you would also for 0:12:40.820 --> 0:12:43.010 the average listener, I think they would be surprised how 0:12:43.040 --> 0:12:45.830 few people typically reach out after an event. So I 0:12:45.830 --> 0:12:48.110 can tell you from firsthand experience that I'm speaking to 0:12:48.140 --> 0:12:50.690 an audience of, say, a thousand people live all at 0:12:50.690 --> 0:12:54.260 the same time. Even if I encourage people to reach out, 0:12:54.290 --> 0:12:57.170 I'll get a handful of people, around a dozen who 0:12:57.200 --> 0:12:59.660 actually follow up on email. Even if I shared my 0:12:59.660 --> 0:13:03.410 email broadly. And out of the dozen people, maybe like 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:07.520 2 to 3 will follow up again afterwards. So that 0:13:07.520 --> 0:13:11.450 really tells you how few people are taking the initiative 0:13:11.450 --> 0:13:15.170 and the proactivity to really have a conversation. I think 0:13:15.170 --> 0:13:19.250 if you find a technology area or a particular concept 0:13:19.250 --> 0:13:22.490 or a new business model to be really interesting, find 0:13:22.490 --> 0:13:24.380 events that are relevant to that. Make sure that you 0:13:24.380 --> 0:13:27.350 show up to the event live. Ask the speaker a question. 0:13:27.380 --> 0:13:32.000 Be memorable in engaging with that question, and really follow up. 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:34.760 I love everything about what you just said, because the 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:37.130 way that our business got started was my husband and 0:13:37.130 --> 0:13:40.770 I showing up to this conference called Growth Conference. There 0:13:40.770 --> 0:13:44.040 were 35,000 people at this conference, and it was hosted 0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:49.440 by world renowned sales and marketing and real estate expert. 0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:52.080 And we sat in the second row where we were 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:56.550 very visible. My husband wore sparkly shoes. He loved sparkly shoes. 0:13:56.550 --> 0:13:59.940 I'm so glad he is over the sparkly shoe thing now. 0:14:00.090 --> 0:14:02.340 We met people, we talked to people, and then we 0:14:02.340 --> 0:14:05.580 formed this business partnership. Most of the game is actually 0:14:05.580 --> 0:14:08.010 just showing up to an event and it sounds so 0:14:08.010 --> 0:14:10.469 silly and like, okay, what event do I go to? 0:14:10.500 --> 0:14:13.410 But once you pick that target and then you get 0:14:13.410 --> 0:14:17.010 around people who are talking about it, it is wild 0:14:17.010 --> 0:14:20.970 how accessible information and people really are, and it's cool 0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:23.580 to see that. That's also, I feel like the spaces 0:14:23.580 --> 0:14:26.190 that we operate in are very different, but it's it's 0:14:26.190 --> 0:14:29.220 still the, the resounding advice that that you're also giving 0:14:29.220 --> 0:14:29.940 as well. 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:33.090 That is so true. And it's really cool to hear 0:14:33.090 --> 0:14:35.640 how you started as well. And I'm sure you can 0:14:35.650 --> 0:14:38.020 attest to the fact that in the early days, I'm 0:14:38.020 --> 0:14:40.390 sure going to an event and even talking to people 0:14:40.390 --> 0:14:43.479 feels quite intimidating, because you don't know what the other 0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:46.390 person's reaction is going to be. Um, and if I 0:14:46.390 --> 0:14:48.910 had to share a very tangible piece of advice that 0:14:48.910 --> 0:14:51.760 helped me get over that is thinking about where I 0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:55.120 can potentially add value. And I think in my early days, 0:14:55.120 --> 0:14:57.010 all I did was show up to events and just 0:14:57.040 --> 0:14:59.530 offer my time to be helpful, even if it's as 0:14:59.530 --> 0:15:02.950 small as helping the event organizer move chairs around or 0:15:02.950 --> 0:15:06.820 help coordinate logistics. And I think it's just by offering 0:15:06.820 --> 0:15:10.420 some of the most basic things, but showing consistency to 0:15:10.450 --> 0:15:13.270 willingness to do that, that makes a huge difference. 0:15:13.300 --> 0:15:15.550 Okay, I have to pivot this just a little bit 0:15:15.550 --> 0:15:19.450 because one thing that I am just like, fascinated by 0:15:19.450 --> 0:15:21.910 and totally a fan of when it comes to you 0:15:21.910 --> 0:15:24.880 is your confidence. And I think the listeners can hear 0:15:24.880 --> 0:15:28.390 it in your answers and your ability to be succinct 0:15:28.390 --> 0:15:33.130 while also deliver impactful information. Confidence is a difficult thing 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:35.440 to build for so many people. I would love to 0:15:35.440 --> 0:15:38.800 know your story about. Have you always been this confident? 0:15:38.830 --> 0:15:43.330 Something I'm incredibly grateful for is how ever since a 0:15:43.330 --> 0:15:45.820 very young age, my parents have done an amazing job 0:15:45.820 --> 0:15:49.630 of encouraging failure. I remember whenever I would do poorly 0:15:49.660 --> 0:15:53.230 on something, even if it's a bad grade, or I 0:15:53.230 --> 0:15:55.390 had to do a group project and it didn't go well. 0:15:55.390 --> 0:15:58.270 Every time I feel like they went above and beyond 0:15:58.270 --> 0:16:01.720 to celebrate all the failures. And so I think that's 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:06.550 intrinsically linked to confidence in many ways, because it's possible 0:16:06.550 --> 0:16:09.460 for you to be bad at something without you as 0:16:09.460 --> 0:16:12.730 a person just being bad. It's so important to separate 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:16.090 who you are and what you do. Even I think oftentimes, 0:16:16.090 --> 0:16:19.930 especially as founders, we link our personal identities so much 0:16:19.930 --> 0:16:22.000 with what we do that if the work that we 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:25.270 do doesn't go well, that we also personally take a 0:16:25.270 --> 0:16:27.460 huge hit to our confidence. And I think it's just 0:16:27.460 --> 0:16:30.520 so important to separate the two, even if they're intrinsically 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:35.630 linked brands. I wouldn't say by any stretch that confidence 0:16:35.630 --> 0:16:38.840 is something that I'm really good at, but rather I 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:43.670 think over time I've learned to distinguish between what I 0:16:43.670 --> 0:16:46.670 do and how I can iterate on that, build on that, 0:16:46.670 --> 0:16:51.860 and become better over time, while simultaneously not having failures 0:16:51.890 --> 0:16:54.500 be a huge hit to to who I am. 0:16:55.250 --> 0:16:58.160 When you do have those failures, and they're not like 0:16:58.160 --> 0:17:01.550 those superficial ones that are like, oh, I'll just dust 0:17:01.550 --> 0:17:04.399 myself off. But there's something that, like, you really wanted 0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:06.530 or you were applying for or going for, and there's 0:17:06.530 --> 0:17:09.080 that rejection. Do you have kind of a process that 0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:12.830 you go through where you just work through the handling 0:17:12.859 --> 0:17:19.189 of the, the rejection or the obstacle that you're you're overcoming? 0:17:19.310 --> 0:17:24.140 Absolutely. I think if we don't ever have moments of 0:17:24.140 --> 0:17:27.530 huge disappointment or something that we really want, it doesn't 0:17:27.530 --> 0:17:29.960 go through. It probably means that the kind of things 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:32.310 that we're trying to do hasn't been hard enough, right? 0:17:32.340 --> 0:17:35.340 So if we try to strive for something really hard, 0:17:35.340 --> 0:17:38.189 inevitably we will hit a brick wall and have it 0:17:38.190 --> 0:17:41.340 not work plenty of the times. I think one of 0:17:41.340 --> 0:17:44.250 the important things to keep in mind is what did 0:17:44.250 --> 0:17:48.210 I not do well enough that time? Or what can 0:17:48.210 --> 0:17:50.729 I improve on from the previous time? And if I 0:17:50.730 --> 0:17:53.820 feel like I had done everything right and the outcome 0:17:53.820 --> 0:17:57.359 was just not in my control, no regrets whatsoever. And 0:17:57.359 --> 0:18:00.930 because I think there is a difference between process versus outcome, 0:18:00.930 --> 0:18:04.920 we can only control the process and the outcome. Sometimes 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:08.520 it is a matter of luck. So is there really, 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:11.280 for example, if we're applying for a job, is there 0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:14.310 really a tangible difference between the top, say, three people 0:18:14.310 --> 0:18:16.800 who get a job, the third person and the fourth person? 0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:20.760 It's not as clear that there is an obvious difference. 0:18:20.790 --> 0:18:24.210 I was even having this conversation, uh, the other day 0:18:24.210 --> 0:18:26.939 with a very close friend. We were looking at research 0:18:26.970 --> 0:18:30.280 in this space that said, Oftentimes, if we're looking at 0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:32.770 grants that are given out or startups that receive funding 0:18:32.770 --> 0:18:35.500 or people who get jobs, you look at the top 0:18:35.500 --> 0:18:38.709 number of people who have gotten it versus the immediate 0:18:38.710 --> 0:18:40.990 runner ups who would have gotten it but didn't get 0:18:40.990 --> 0:18:43.420 it in the long term, you actually see people who 0:18:43.420 --> 0:18:46.840 didn't get it with more success because they have more 0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:48.550 of a chip on their shoulder, and they work even 0:18:48.550 --> 0:18:51.340 harder at getting to where they need to be. So 0:18:51.340 --> 0:18:55.180 I personally see every single time where it hasn't worked 0:18:55.180 --> 0:18:58.030 out as one point in time, in a much longer 0:18:58.030 --> 0:19:00.730 time horizon, where I have then more time to keep 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:02.050 trying and do better. 0:19:02.530 --> 0:19:05.260 Oh, I love that so much. It makes me happy 0:19:05.260 --> 0:19:09.340 to hear you say that it's self-created. I just, I 0:19:09.340 --> 0:19:12.040 feel like even when things start to go well and 0:19:12.040 --> 0:19:15.100 there's success in an area I know what has been 0:19:15.100 --> 0:19:18.340 successful for me in the past is, is having the 0:19:18.340 --> 0:19:21.850 feeling of a chip being on my shoulder, or having 0:19:21.850 --> 0:19:25.990 the feeling of this pressure for whatever the next thing is. 0:19:25.990 --> 0:19:30.250 And so. sometimes I think it's easy for people to 0:19:30.280 --> 0:19:33.700 look at people who have accomplished a lot and think, oh, well, 0:19:33.730 --> 0:19:37.900 maybe they handle it in this, like, beautifully happy way 0:19:37.900 --> 0:19:40.570 and there's no rejection and things aren't hard. I think 0:19:40.570 --> 0:19:47.230 people could very easily mistaken your just accomplishments as something 0:19:47.230 --> 0:19:48.970 that might have been an easy road for you, where 0:19:48.970 --> 0:19:50.950 I'm certain that that's not the case, and you have 0:19:50.950 --> 0:19:54.490 to figure out the way to leverage and utilize the 0:19:54.490 --> 0:19:57.880 chip on your shoulder in whatever form it comes to you, 0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:00.459 even though it might come to you in a different 0:20:00.460 --> 0:20:02.890 way than it comes to somebody else. Mhm. 0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:08.680 Absolutely. So having grown up in in Vancouver, Canada, I 0:20:08.680 --> 0:20:12.700 actually had attended college in the US as an international student, 0:20:12.700 --> 0:20:15.850 and I just remember working 7 to 8 different part 0:20:15.880 --> 0:20:18.369 time jobs at any point in time during college to 0:20:18.400 --> 0:20:21.100 try to pay for tuition and room and board, whereas 0:20:21.100 --> 0:20:23.229 a lot of the other friends who had attended the 0:20:23.230 --> 0:20:26.960 same school, they had been local students. and as a result, 0:20:26.960 --> 0:20:30.110 they just paid at least ten x less tuition and 0:20:30.109 --> 0:20:34.040 had not just nearly as many things that they needed 0:20:34.040 --> 0:20:36.859 to do to just pay for tuition. And I think 0:20:36.859 --> 0:20:39.800 that's just one of many things. Each of us have 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:44.360 our own struggles. Some people are born with certain disabilities, 0:20:44.390 --> 0:20:47.419 others are born with certain family structures. And I think 0:20:47.420 --> 0:20:50.960 we all have these different experiences that uniquely shape who 0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:55.940 we are outside of work. A lot of my time, 0:20:56.150 --> 0:20:58.640 at least within the space of giving back, has been 0:20:58.640 --> 0:21:01.910 really spent on mental health related topics. And I think 0:21:01.910 --> 0:21:05.210 for folks who are born with mental health challenges or 0:21:05.210 --> 0:21:07.580 born into a family with mental health challenges, that's a 0:21:07.580 --> 0:21:10.820 whole slew of different circumstances that you grow up with. 0:21:10.820 --> 0:21:18.770 So I think it's so important to think about what's possible, 0:21:18.770 --> 0:21:21.650 not from a what does my circumstances allow me to, 0:21:21.680 --> 0:21:25.590 but rather where can I go? And then I think 0:21:25.590 --> 0:21:27.840 this is really going back to first principles. What do 0:21:27.840 --> 0:21:30.119 I want to do. And then let me take the 0:21:30.119 --> 0:21:34.949 small steps to getting there rather than. Well, given these limitations, 0:21:34.950 --> 0:21:37.379 I don't think that's a possibility. I'll back out. I 0:21:37.380 --> 0:21:40.920 think that's a lot of how you talk to yourself 0:21:40.920 --> 0:21:43.680 is so important. I think being kind to yourself and 0:21:43.680 --> 0:21:47.460 telling yourself that everything is possible is a very important 0:21:47.460 --> 0:21:50.160 piece of the story, too. I wouldn't say by any 0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:54.240 stretch that my career path was certain. In fact, it 0:21:54.240 --> 0:21:59.100 was really from these challenges during school that I had 0:21:59.100 --> 0:22:01.440 realized a lot of other people also struggled the same 0:22:01.440 --> 0:22:04.199 way that I did, where they needed to work multiple 0:22:04.230 --> 0:22:06.870 part time jobs. They didn't know how to negotiate for rent. 0:22:06.869 --> 0:22:09.870 They had no idea how auto loans worked. And it's 0:22:09.869 --> 0:22:12.300 from there that my first startup had emerged. And that 0:22:12.330 --> 0:22:15.030 kind of threw me into the world of entrepreneurship and 0:22:15.030 --> 0:22:16.410 investing in entrepreneurs. 0:22:16.440 --> 0:22:19.080 Can you tell us a little bit more about how 0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:20.850 your first venture came to be? I know you just 0:22:20.850 --> 0:22:23.229 gave us a little sprinkling of that, but tell us 0:22:23.230 --> 0:22:26.140 more about what the business did and how you structured it. 0:22:26.170 --> 0:22:29.409 Yeah, so I had two other really good friends during 0:22:29.410 --> 0:22:32.020 school where I realized that three of us, whenever we 0:22:32.020 --> 0:22:35.139 got together and talked about very similar challenges, where I 0:22:35.140 --> 0:22:37.960 was working a ton of different part time jobs. Another 0:22:37.960 --> 0:22:41.350 one of my friends was working in the dorms to 0:22:41.380 --> 0:22:44.560 cover for room and board. Another really good friend was 0:22:44.560 --> 0:22:49.030 on a scholarship, but the scholarship wasn't attached to a 0:22:49.030 --> 0:22:53.830 specific amount and as tuition went up, it made school 0:22:53.859 --> 0:22:56.530 less and less affordable for her. So the three of 0:22:56.530 --> 0:22:58.540 us would get together on a regular basis and just 0:22:58.540 --> 0:23:01.899 share best practices with each other. How did you negotiate 0:23:01.900 --> 0:23:04.210 something as small as a phone bill all the way 0:23:04.210 --> 0:23:06.790 up to? Do you have any hacks for thinking about 0:23:06.790 --> 0:23:09.699 how student loans work? We came to a point in 0:23:09.700 --> 0:23:14.709 time where we realized that student loans were, uh, for 0:23:14.710 --> 0:23:17.859 the very first time in history, exceeding auto loans in 0:23:17.859 --> 0:23:20.470 the US. So we realized that it really wasn't a 0:23:20.470 --> 0:23:23.380 small thing and we wanted to do more. Can we 0:23:23.380 --> 0:23:26.860 just design a course that would share our learnings and 0:23:26.859 --> 0:23:29.379 best practices that we would share with each other to 0:23:29.410 --> 0:23:32.290 other students in the same school? So we went to 0:23:32.320 --> 0:23:35.740 our faculty members, written up this proposal for why we 0:23:35.740 --> 0:23:38.200 think a course on money management and financial literacy is 0:23:38.200 --> 0:23:41.619 so important, and eventually ended up pushing through this course 0:23:41.619 --> 0:23:44.290 and got a room allotted to us for 35 people 0:23:44.290 --> 0:23:47.290 for the semester. We had no idea how to do 0:23:47.290 --> 0:23:49.600 any marketing, so we just kind of put this Google 0:23:49.600 --> 0:23:53.109 form out there and really without any marketing at all 0:23:53.140 --> 0:23:55.810 on our behalf. And it was just organic word of mouth. 0:23:56.050 --> 0:23:59.440 We had almost 400 applications come in for the class, 0:23:59.440 --> 0:24:01.900 and even after we emailed everyone saying we didn't have 0:24:01.900 --> 0:24:04.930 space in the class, we still had about 170 people 0:24:04.930 --> 0:24:06.490 show up on the first day of class trying to 0:24:06.520 --> 0:24:10.060 cram into this tiny 30 person classroom. And so that's 0:24:10.060 --> 0:24:12.340 when we realized that there was an opportunity here for 0:24:12.340 --> 0:24:15.340 us to turn this potentially into a much bigger business, 0:24:15.340 --> 0:24:19.550 where we would start by teaching content as well as 0:24:19.550 --> 0:24:22.879 turn this into software so that we could provide similar 0:24:22.880 --> 0:24:27.290 curriculum for other universities, as well as for other financial institutions. 0:24:27.320 --> 0:24:30.230 We had no idea how sales worked, and in the 0:24:30.230 --> 0:24:32.390 very early days we would just cold call people, show 0:24:32.390 --> 0:24:34.699 up to conferences, try to be very proactive, try to 0:24:34.700 --> 0:24:37.760 find the best point of contact, ask for referrals and 0:24:37.760 --> 0:24:40.610 intros wherever we can, and really rely on the kindness 0:24:40.609 --> 0:24:43.070 of people who are willing to guide us and show 0:24:43.070 --> 0:24:45.650 us where we go. And one of the things that 0:24:45.650 --> 0:24:48.920 till this day, I absolutely do myself and very much 0:24:48.950 --> 0:24:51.320 appreciate about the culture in Silicon Valley, is that it's 0:24:51.320 --> 0:24:54.859 all about bringing people up with you so you can 0:24:54.859 --> 0:24:58.010 absolutely cold outreach to someone on LinkedIn and expect that 0:24:58.010 --> 0:24:59.690 they might be willing to grab a coffee with you 0:24:59.690 --> 0:25:02.270 and share how they had gotten there, because they had 0:25:02.270 --> 0:25:05.750 also gotten there from help of other strangers and really 0:25:05.750 --> 0:25:09.530 from kindness of others. So we had learned so much 0:25:09.530 --> 0:25:12.800 during that time and ended up selling into a lot 0:25:12.800 --> 0:25:16.940 of large banks, including Goldman Sachs, Wells Fargo, Bank of America. 0:25:16.940 --> 0:25:20.250 We also got a ton of no's from amazing companies too, 0:25:20.250 --> 0:25:23.700 and we didn't really understand why. At the beginning. So 0:25:23.700 --> 0:25:26.909 wherever possible, we would ask people for feedback like we 0:25:26.910 --> 0:25:29.490 really respect your answer. We just love to hear why 0:25:29.490 --> 0:25:31.710 this wasn't the right fit for you at this time. 0:25:31.710 --> 0:25:35.820 We sold into universities, we sold into these banks and 0:25:35.820 --> 0:25:39.000 learned a ton from this process. So it was really 0:25:39.000 --> 0:25:42.540 from here that I had even any exposure to the 0:25:42.540 --> 0:25:45.690 world of finance and banks. And prior to this, it 0:25:45.690 --> 0:25:48.179 just felt like something that was really far away. I 0:25:48.180 --> 0:25:52.260 had thought that I might become a historian or go 0:25:52.260 --> 0:25:56.010 into some sort of public policy field prior to this. 0:25:56.010 --> 0:25:59.010 So I think it also tells us how great life 0:25:59.010 --> 0:26:03.360 can be when we take our paths down for unexpected turns. 0:26:03.390 --> 0:26:08.879 Is such an incredible story. When you put that with, okay, 0:26:08.910 --> 0:26:11.369 you were a founder in this, and that has to 0:26:11.400 --> 0:26:15.900 now give you such insight into the investment strategies that 0:26:15.900 --> 0:26:19.139 you are now deploying as general partner. Do you pronounce 0:26:19.140 --> 0:26:20.460 it io VC? 0:26:20.490 --> 0:26:25.530 Yes, you got it perfectly. So io vc. Mhm. So 0:26:25.530 --> 0:26:30.600 we are acronym stands for of course innovation overflow venture capital. 0:26:30.600 --> 0:26:33.659 And we this is a very geeky name named after 0:26:33.660 --> 0:26:36.990 Stack Overflow, which is a platform where engineers and programmers 0:26:36.990 --> 0:26:39.840 will go on to to share advice with each other. 0:26:40.020 --> 0:26:43.560 And the reason why we had named after this is 0:26:43.560 --> 0:26:47.160 because we think people in entrepreneurship and in investing need 0:26:47.160 --> 0:26:50.550 to learn, share and build together as well. So, um, 0:26:50.550 --> 0:26:55.080 we had previously been branded as agile VC because we 0:26:55.080 --> 0:26:58.380 wanted to be very quick moving. What we realized was 0:26:58.380 --> 0:27:01.290 that the word was agile. It was very difficult to 0:27:01.320 --> 0:27:04.440 pronounce in some foreign cultures, and so we eventually rebranded 0:27:04.440 --> 0:27:07.650 ourselves to for phonetic letters. I share this very short 0:27:07.650 --> 0:27:11.399 story because I think in my earlier in my career, 0:27:11.400 --> 0:27:16.720 I had overlooked how important marketing and branding was to 0:27:16.810 --> 0:27:19.840 any sort of platform, brand or community. And I think 0:27:19.840 --> 0:27:22.899 this is something that I learned so much about from 0:27:22.900 --> 0:27:25.420 picking what I thought was a really cool name, calling 0:27:25.420 --> 0:27:28.869 ourselves agile VC, to realizing that it's important to be 0:27:28.869 --> 0:27:33.100 inclusive in our target audience and in facing a very 0:27:33.100 --> 0:27:36.670 diverse audience to rebranding and all of that learned so 0:27:36.670 --> 0:27:37.810 much from the experience. 0:27:37.810 --> 0:27:42.460 What would you say the biggest takeaway that you've had over? 0:27:42.490 --> 0:27:46.090 Let's see, how long have you have you been? I see, 0:27:46.119 --> 0:27:48.610 so you're six years in seven years, six years. 0:27:48.609 --> 0:27:51.850 In seven years, including the planning year. 0:27:52.090 --> 0:27:56.169 Which definitely counts the planning years. Probably the hardest year, 0:27:56.170 --> 0:27:58.390 I would imagine. Was is that true or is it 0:27:58.420 --> 0:28:01.150 is it harder as it grows? How is that kind 0:28:01.150 --> 0:28:04.000 of changed over the last seven years? 0:28:04.030 --> 0:28:08.860 You know, I think people think that, um, it gets 0:28:08.859 --> 0:28:12.130 easier over time. I feel like every year it's tackling 0:28:12.130 --> 0:28:15.320 new challenges, and that's what makes this job so much fun. 0:28:15.350 --> 0:28:18.560 I think investing in entrepreneurs is inspiring in many ways. One, 0:28:18.560 --> 0:28:20.810 we get to work with some of the most inspiring 0:28:20.810 --> 0:28:24.290 and smartest people. Number two, we get to learn from 0:28:24.290 --> 0:28:29.300 their best practices and help share our experiences with them 0:28:29.300 --> 0:28:32.689 to hopefully help other early stage entrepreneurs and founders avoid 0:28:32.690 --> 0:28:35.030 the same mistakes that we had made in the past. 0:28:35.060 --> 0:28:40.040 And I think three investors, what they really do is 0:28:40.040 --> 0:28:42.890 put their money where their mouth is and invest money 0:28:42.890 --> 0:28:45.950 into what the future can and should look like. It's 0:28:45.950 --> 0:28:49.580 a responsibility that we take very seriously as well, because 0:28:49.580 --> 0:28:52.490 if we want to build a future that is more inclusive, 0:28:52.520 --> 0:28:56.840 that is more innovative, that is better than we really 0:28:56.840 --> 0:28:58.760 have to think long and hard about what we're doing 0:28:58.760 --> 0:29:00.770 now so that we can get there in X number 0:29:00.770 --> 0:29:03.500 of years. So I think we spend a lot of 0:29:03.500 --> 0:29:06.020 time thinking about what can the future look like, what 0:29:06.020 --> 0:29:09.080 should the future look like? What criteria are we following? 0:29:09.110 --> 0:29:11.940 Are we investing if we want to see a future 0:29:11.940 --> 0:29:15.000 that is diverse, are we investing and backing in diverse founders? 0:29:15.000 --> 0:29:18.930 So all of those are things that I think I'm 0:29:18.930 --> 0:29:21.870 incredibly lucky to get to do. In fact, the other 0:29:21.870 --> 0:29:24.870 day I was having a conversation with a very close friend, 0:29:24.870 --> 0:29:27.480 and we were talking about if we had to summarize 0:29:27.480 --> 0:29:29.790 our jobs in verbs, what would be some of the 0:29:29.790 --> 0:29:32.670 top things that we would say? I think in my job, 0:29:32.670 --> 0:29:36.090 really the top things are to meet people and to learn. 0:29:36.120 --> 0:29:39.120 When you think about your role compared to the other 0:29:39.240 --> 0:29:43.020 team members in your organization, how would you prioritize and 0:29:43.050 --> 0:29:45.480 kind of structure what you do day to day versus 0:29:45.480 --> 0:29:48.570 what you're not excited about doing? Because it's either not 0:29:48.570 --> 0:29:51.750 your strength or there are people that are just better 0:29:51.750 --> 0:29:54.120 suited in your environment to do those things. 0:29:54.150 --> 0:29:58.470 I realized over time that there are things that I'm 0:29:58.470 --> 0:30:01.620 incredibly good at, but there's also many, many other things 0:30:01.620 --> 0:30:04.050 that I am just horrible at. So I think finding 0:30:04.050 --> 0:30:06.660 the right business partners who can check your blind spots 0:30:06.660 --> 0:30:10.020 and who can really help support you in those ways 0:30:10.020 --> 0:30:14.160 are so important. So I've realized over time that there's 0:30:14.160 --> 0:30:17.640 a few things that I'm not good at. Number one, um, 0:30:17.640 --> 0:30:22.530 I am not very good at having really short conversations 0:30:22.530 --> 0:30:24.840 with people. I love getting to know people in depth. 0:30:24.840 --> 0:30:27.900 I love understanding how they grew up, who they are, 0:30:27.900 --> 0:30:30.720 how they were shaped to be, who they are. And 0:30:30.900 --> 0:30:34.350 I love finding out the background stories, the less told things. 0:30:34.350 --> 0:30:36.690 I love asking about what didn't make it into your 0:30:36.690 --> 0:30:39.660 pitch deck, what almost made it, but that you took 0:30:39.660 --> 0:30:42.720 it out, and how does that work? I love doing that. 0:30:42.750 --> 0:30:44.880 At the same time, I think my business partner is 0:30:44.880 --> 0:30:47.040 really good at keeping to time and making sure that 0:30:47.040 --> 0:30:49.890 we hit the milestones that we need to in reasonable time. 0:30:49.890 --> 0:30:53.490 So I think being able to identify strengths and weaknesses 0:30:53.490 --> 0:30:56.880 and realizing what you're good at and finding someone else 0:30:56.880 --> 0:30:59.400 who can help check for those spots are so important. 0:30:59.400 --> 0:31:03.180 So I'm incredibly lucky to have met my business partner 0:31:03.180 --> 0:31:05.010 and to be able to work with him across all 0:31:05.040 --> 0:31:08.500 of these years, so I think that's something really important 0:31:08.500 --> 0:31:11.290 to think about. One of the things in my entrepreneurship 0:31:11.290 --> 0:31:15.940 class at Berkeley that I always start by sharing with 0:31:15.940 --> 0:31:20.080 folks is that oftentimes in entrepreneurship, the average time it 0:31:20.080 --> 0:31:23.200 takes to an exit of some sort, whether it is 0:31:23.200 --> 0:31:27.040 getting acquired or going public even, or coming to a 0:31:27.040 --> 0:31:30.130 place where you're getting to stable revenue, where you have 0:31:30.130 --> 0:31:32.260 somewhat of a scalable business model, where you don't have 0:31:32.260 --> 0:31:36.280 to work as hard. Um, that average time period for 0:31:36.280 --> 0:31:40.150 entrepreneurs is about ten years, and that is longer than 0:31:40.150 --> 0:31:44.500 the average American marriage, which means that whatever it is 0:31:44.530 --> 0:31:47.950 that you do, finding the right business partner in many 0:31:47.950 --> 0:31:50.140 ways is harder than finding the person that you want 0:31:50.170 --> 0:31:53.020 to marry, because you really have to be certain that 0:31:53.020 --> 0:31:55.030 this person is the right fit across all of these 0:31:55.030 --> 0:32:00.610 different ways. So I like framing it, especially for students 0:32:00.610 --> 0:32:04.870 this way, um, particularly college level and graduate level students, 0:32:04.870 --> 0:32:07.670 because I think it's important to think about life and 0:32:07.670 --> 0:32:11.690 career on a very long term, decades long term kind 0:32:11.690 --> 0:32:14.570 of time axes rather than just in the span of 0:32:14.570 --> 0:32:15.770 months or years. 0:32:16.370 --> 0:32:21.950 So smart. And, you know, especially with you having started 0:32:21.950 --> 0:32:26.150 the is it calcify? Is that the I'm sure you 0:32:26.150 --> 0:32:29.480 had just no one was teaching you at that time 0:32:29.510 --> 0:32:32.870 operating agreements and how the formal structure, unless they were, 0:32:32.900 --> 0:32:35.540 were they did you have that like just totally tight 0:32:35.540 --> 0:32:38.870 and clean from an equity structure standpoint? 0:32:39.290 --> 0:32:43.670 You know, I think first time around everybody makes similar mistakes. 0:32:43.670 --> 0:32:44.930 And yeah. 0:32:45.230 --> 0:32:48.770 So I think in our case, well now I think 0:32:48.770 --> 0:32:51.290 there's a ton of content out there where it's possible 0:32:51.290 --> 0:32:53.930 to see just general best practices for how to lay 0:32:53.930 --> 0:32:57.080 out equity structures and all of that. I would say 0:32:57.080 --> 0:33:00.230 back when we had started the company, there wasn't too 0:33:00.230 --> 0:33:05.370 much information out there. There was a clear majority, 40 um, shareholder, 0:33:05.370 --> 0:33:08.160 which was great because we need a clear decision maker 0:33:08.160 --> 0:33:13.230 to break ties, if any, and to make decisions moving forward. And, um, 0:33:13.230 --> 0:33:15.600 I do think it's important to figure out over time 0:33:15.600 --> 0:33:17.760 what you prefer as well. Some people think that it's 0:33:17.760 --> 0:33:20.310 important for them to be the CEO and to call 0:33:20.310 --> 0:33:23.370 the shots, but at the same time, they might not 0:33:23.370 --> 0:33:25.830 yet be in a place where they feel really comfortable 0:33:25.830 --> 0:33:28.020 with making all of these big decisions. So I think 0:33:28.020 --> 0:33:35.100 having a serious, self-reflective conversation or thinking session where you 0:33:35.100 --> 0:33:37.620 really ask yourself, do I want to call the shots? 0:33:37.650 --> 0:33:39.600 Is it helpful or is it better for the business 0:33:39.600 --> 0:33:41.370 in order to call the shots? I think those are 0:33:41.370 --> 0:33:44.670 all really important pieces. But to answer your question directly, 0:33:44.670 --> 0:33:47.820 I don't know other than the fact that we had 0:33:47.820 --> 0:33:51.210 a clear majority shareholder, I don't know that we followed 0:33:51.240 --> 0:33:53.730 best practices for how to do equity. 0:33:54.570 --> 0:33:57.480 And that's kind of the cool thing. And you see this, 0:33:57.510 --> 0:34:02.460 I'm sure, every single day where when you're starting a company, 0:34:02.460 --> 0:34:05.610 it's really the last thing that you're thinking about. Unless 0:34:05.610 --> 0:34:08.760 you are, you know, just you've done this before. You're sophisticated. 0:34:08.760 --> 0:34:13.890 But when some of these earlier startups take place and 0:34:13.890 --> 0:34:16.320 really start to form or even, you know, a family 0:34:16.320 --> 0:34:19.770 business that just gets passed down from kid to kid 0:34:19.890 --> 0:34:22.200 or from parent to kid, there's just not a lot 0:34:22.230 --> 0:34:25.890 of thought. Because the reality is the business is, in 0:34:25.890 --> 0:34:29.280 many cases, starting because they're trying to solve a need 0:34:29.280 --> 0:34:31.890 in the marketplace and they're not thinking about, how do 0:34:31.890 --> 0:34:34.860 I create wealth, how do I exit this, how do 0:34:34.860 --> 0:34:39.240 I structure this to allow for a board and executives 0:34:39.239 --> 0:34:42.419 and just team members to be able to help? It's 0:34:42.420 --> 0:34:45.210 just kind of bootstrapping and figuring it out, which is 0:34:45.210 --> 0:34:49.560 what's so cool about starting a business. But then also 0:34:49.590 --> 0:34:51.419 what can be scary when it comes to the things 0:34:51.420 --> 0:34:53.580 that you just you don't know what you don't know. 0:34:54.090 --> 0:34:59.520 Absolutely. And what makes being a founder, whether you're running 0:34:59.520 --> 0:35:03.220 a small, medium sized enterprise, or you're running a technology 0:35:03.219 --> 0:35:06.910 enabled startup. Either way, what's most exciting is that you 0:35:06.910 --> 0:35:09.460 get to explore the unknown, right? Because you don't know 0:35:09.460 --> 0:35:12.430 what you don't know. It's a fun process to start 0:35:12.430 --> 0:35:16.029 figuring out what the rest of the world might look like. 0:35:16.180 --> 0:35:18.520 Yeah. Or else I would think it'd just be paralyzing 0:35:18.520 --> 0:35:21.399 if it was any other way. Because if if you 0:35:21.400 --> 0:35:24.040 really knew, if you had an idea of what you 0:35:24.040 --> 0:35:27.880 don't know, I think most people would just not even 0:35:27.880 --> 0:35:29.980 want to go down that path, because there are so 0:35:29.980 --> 0:35:34.509 many stories of just challenging predicaments that people find themselves 0:35:34.510 --> 0:35:36.790 in because they don't necessarily know. And ideally, there are 0:35:36.790 --> 0:35:39.759 people out there who are giving guidance and advice and 0:35:39.760 --> 0:35:42.250 sharing wisdom and getting the attention of people so that 0:35:42.250 --> 0:35:45.520 they can at least structure it properly so that no 0:35:45.520 --> 0:35:49.960 relationships are ruined and nothing, nothing bad happens. But unfortunately, 0:35:49.960 --> 0:35:53.200 it's just not. It's not the reality yet. Today. 0:35:53.469 --> 0:35:55.450 To add on to the last point that you shared 0:35:55.480 --> 0:35:58.900 it just as a personal thing that I do, if 0:35:58.900 --> 0:36:01.759 it's relevant for all the listeners, I'd like to think 0:36:01.760 --> 0:36:06.770 about my habits in two buckets consumptive habits versus productive habits. 0:36:06.800 --> 0:36:08.989 A lot of the times we fall into this default 0:36:08.989 --> 0:36:11.840 of consumptive habits like, I love food and I consume 0:36:11.840 --> 0:36:14.480 a lot of food, or I love movies and I 0:36:14.510 --> 0:36:16.910 consume a lot of movies. And over time, what I've 0:36:16.940 --> 0:36:19.820 tried to do is think about where I'm being productive. 0:36:19.820 --> 0:36:21.740 For example, if I eat really good food and I 0:36:21.770 --> 0:36:24.350 write up a note, even if it's posting on Yelp, 0:36:24.350 --> 0:36:27.320 for example, um, as like a mini food critic, I 0:36:27.320 --> 0:36:31.339 think that is a small act of producing something. Or 0:36:31.340 --> 0:36:33.920 if I love movies and I write a small commentary 0:36:33.920 --> 0:36:36.500 about my thoughts on the movie, that's being productive in 0:36:36.500 --> 0:36:38.989 a way, it doesn't even have to be as small 0:36:38.989 --> 0:36:40.730 as that. It could be as small or as big 0:36:40.730 --> 0:36:44.390 as something that is core related to the company that 0:36:44.390 --> 0:36:47.239 you're running. But I bring that up because on this 0:36:47.239 --> 0:36:49.370 topic of we don't know what, we don't know if 0:36:49.370 --> 0:36:53.300 we just dedicate a small portion, even if it's like 0:36:53.330 --> 0:36:56.360 this week or for once a year I'm going to 0:36:56.360 --> 0:37:00.960 dedicate myself to productive habits of learning about something and 0:37:00.960 --> 0:37:03.810 writing something about this new thing that I've learned. I 0:37:03.810 --> 0:37:06.509 think that really brings us very far. Even if it's 0:37:06.510 --> 0:37:09.000 not something that we repeat on a monthly basis, but 0:37:09.030 --> 0:37:11.550 like once a year, that's a really great way of 0:37:11.550 --> 0:37:14.939 helping us explore what we don't know, that we don't know. 0:37:14.969 --> 0:37:19.920 I love that I'm going to use that. That is fantastic. 0:37:20.340 --> 0:37:23.880 Consumptive versus productive habits. And literally taking a note on 0:37:23.880 --> 0:37:28.589 my stickies as you talk. I have two final questions. 0:37:28.590 --> 0:37:35.100 First question, walk us through a brief overview of a 0:37:35.100 --> 0:37:37.650 day in your life. 0:37:37.650 --> 0:37:41.790 So I've always had more of a sporadic schedule. I 0:37:41.820 --> 0:37:45.810 am just by nature a very energetic person, so I 0:37:45.840 --> 0:37:48.300 can function well on not a lot of sleep, so 0:37:48.330 --> 0:37:51.209 I used to just have back to back meetings all 0:37:51.210 --> 0:37:54.840 day and then keep on going until really late at 0:37:54.840 --> 0:37:57.780 night and then ready for bed. And that's a day. 0:37:57.780 --> 0:38:01.800 But over time, I've learned so much from just how 0:38:01.800 --> 0:38:05.220 to run and structure a better schedule. Now what I 0:38:05.219 --> 0:38:09.000 try to do is wake up early. Um, ideally before 0:38:09.000 --> 0:38:10.799 everyone else is up. So I have a I have 0:38:10.800 --> 0:38:14.820 time to, uh, really reflect on what my top priorities 0:38:14.820 --> 0:38:17.700 are for the day and hopefully get to Inbox Zero. 0:38:17.730 --> 0:38:21.150 Then I try to do deeper work earlier during the 0:38:21.150 --> 0:38:24.510 day rather than meetings, because those are some of my productive, 0:38:24.510 --> 0:38:29.100 most productive hours. And then later on, from afternoon onwards, 0:38:29.100 --> 0:38:32.189 when I usually would start to get tired, I try 0:38:32.219 --> 0:38:34.530 to do meetings. Then because I derive a lot of 0:38:34.530 --> 0:38:38.580 energy from meeting with other people. So I try to 0:38:38.610 --> 0:38:41.670 schedule things that I get a lot of energy out 0:38:41.670 --> 0:38:46.170 of when I am most tired, and then towards evening time, it's, 0:38:46.440 --> 0:38:51.210 you know, again, doing follow ups or any to do items. 0:38:51.210 --> 0:38:53.250 As a result of the meetings that I did in 0:38:53.250 --> 0:38:56.290 the afternoon. And then of course, towards the end of 0:38:56.290 --> 0:38:59.380 the day, I try to set up time, set aside 0:38:59.380 --> 0:39:03.070 for exercise, for walking my dog, for spending quality time 0:39:03.070 --> 0:39:08.560 with family, for just enjoying outdoor time in nature. Um, 0:39:08.560 --> 0:39:10.870 and then I try to have no screen time for 0:39:10.870 --> 0:39:13.060 about an hour prior to going to bed. That's the 0:39:13.060 --> 0:39:15.700 ideal schedule. I don't know how much of my time 0:39:15.700 --> 0:39:19.000 I've managed to stick to that schedule. Um, I'm very 0:39:19.000 --> 0:39:21.489 good at being spontaneous and haven't been as good at 0:39:21.489 --> 0:39:25.359 sticking to routines, but that is what I'm striving towards. Um, 0:39:25.600 --> 0:39:28.540 the last thing I would add on this is that 0:39:28.540 --> 0:39:31.270 one of the top things I learned from a mentor 0:39:31.300 --> 0:39:33.760 years ago that brought a lot more peace to my 0:39:33.760 --> 0:39:37.390 mind is this concept of a weighted average week. So 0:39:37.420 --> 0:39:39.819 instead of trying to get to the perfect day every 0:39:39.820 --> 0:39:43.030 single day and hitting all of these things in a day, 0:39:43.030 --> 0:39:46.180 that's just too much pressure. So I learned from her 0:39:46.210 --> 0:39:49.660 to think about my week being weighted over time, so 0:39:49.660 --> 0:39:52.899 that today maybe I've done great on work. tomorrow. Maybe 0:39:52.900 --> 0:39:55.210 I do great on exercise the day after. Maybe I'm 0:39:55.210 --> 0:39:58.750 great at family and quality time with my significant other, 0:39:58.750 --> 0:40:01.090 and over the course of a week, I would have 0:40:01.090 --> 0:40:03.130 hit all the major things that I wanted to hear, 0:40:03.190 --> 0:40:06.490 that I wanted to hit. And that significantly takes pressure 0:40:06.489 --> 0:40:09.580 off of having to have a perfect day and being 0:40:09.580 --> 0:40:12.340 able to focus on different priorities throughout a week. 0:40:12.969 --> 0:40:15.610 Amazing. I've never heard of that, but I really like 0:40:15.640 --> 0:40:17.950 that so that you don't necessarily feel like you've just 0:40:17.950 --> 0:40:20.650 blown a whole day just because you didn't do two 0:40:20.650 --> 0:40:23.110 of the five things, or two of the six things. 0:40:23.140 --> 0:40:28.150 I like that. What's next for you when you look 0:40:28.150 --> 0:40:30.700 at your career over the next 5 to 10 years? 0:40:30.700 --> 0:40:34.210 Tell us about where you see the future, where you 0:40:34.210 --> 0:40:37.060 see your work leading and what you're excited about that 0:40:37.060 --> 0:40:38.440 you're working on right now. 0:40:38.469 --> 0:40:41.860 Venture capital is really a long term commitment, so you 0:40:41.860 --> 0:40:44.500 wouldn't really go and become an investor unless that's what 0:40:44.500 --> 0:40:46.240 you knew you wanted to do for at least the 0:40:46.239 --> 0:40:49.000 next decade. So for me, as far as I could 0:40:49.000 --> 0:40:52.280 see ahead, continuing to be an investor and growing to 0:40:52.310 --> 0:40:54.920 hopefully be a better investor and more value added to 0:40:54.950 --> 0:40:57.950 the entrepreneurs that we do work with is definitely a 0:40:57.980 --> 0:41:01.340 long term career goal. Outside of my full time role 0:41:01.340 --> 0:41:05.000 on the venture side and just learning and becoming better, 0:41:05.000 --> 0:41:10.489 I definitely want to continue to give back by educating. 0:41:10.489 --> 0:41:15.469 So I've always taught part time outside of my different roles, 0:41:15.469 --> 0:41:20.090 and I do think it is extremely rewarding of an experience, 0:41:20.090 --> 0:41:22.759 because now I feel like I learn way more from 0:41:22.760 --> 0:41:27.470 my students than I'm teaching sometimes. So I get about now, 0:41:27.469 --> 0:41:29.450 at least in my faculty role at Berkeley, I get 0:41:29.450 --> 0:41:33.350 about 60% undergrads and 40% grad students. The grad students 0:41:33.350 --> 0:41:36.920 are more quote unquote normally aged. Whereas my undergrad students, 0:41:36.920 --> 0:41:39.830 I get everything from students who are born in zero 0:41:39.830 --> 0:41:43.400 four and oh five, and they are incredibly young, but 0:41:43.400 --> 0:41:48.259 also incredibly inspiring. Many of them have had prior startup experience, 0:41:48.260 --> 0:41:51.899 have even exited from companies or have interned at all 0:41:51.900 --> 0:41:54.420 of these amazing companies. I look at them and I 0:41:54.420 --> 0:41:56.550 feel so much more optimistic about where the future of 0:41:56.550 --> 0:42:00.180 the world is going. They're very mission driven. They are 0:42:00.330 --> 0:42:04.320 extremely passionate about what they do, energetic about changing the 0:42:04.320 --> 0:42:07.290 world for the better, and all of that, I continue. 0:42:07.320 --> 0:42:10.530 I hope I can continue to give back in that way, 0:42:10.530 --> 0:42:13.020 and continue to be inspired by and learn from all 0:42:13.050 --> 0:42:16.770 of my students. So when I look forward in my career, 0:42:16.800 --> 0:42:20.520 definitely continuing to be an investor and then teaching as 0:42:20.520 --> 0:42:23.190 well as learning in my role as faculty. 0:42:23.700 --> 0:42:29.070 That's amazing. Well, where can the listeners find you? What 0:42:29.070 --> 0:42:31.380 is the best place for them to connect with you? 0:42:31.410 --> 0:42:34.890 Yeah, I'm very active on LinkedIn, so if I can 0:42:34.890 --> 0:42:37.680 be helpful with anything that any of the listeners are 0:42:37.680 --> 0:42:39.779 working on, please feel free to reach out on LinkedIn. 0:42:39.780 --> 0:42:42.900 I really do mean that. Um, and in addition to 0:42:42.930 --> 0:42:45.930 that I mentioned earlier, I sit on the board of 0:42:45.930 --> 0:42:50.440 decode if anyone is interested in volunteering and getting involved. 0:42:50.440 --> 0:42:52.689 What I think is incredibly cool is that for all 0:42:52.690 --> 0:42:55.690 the events that we do, there's always both a public 0:42:55.690 --> 0:43:00.400 facing component as well as a private roundtable discussion segment 0:43:00.400 --> 0:43:02.470 where for all the speakers that we've brought in and 0:43:02.469 --> 0:43:04.810 we've brought in some really cool people, including the CEO 0:43:04.810 --> 0:43:08.050 and founder of zoom, the CEO of Google X, and 0:43:08.050 --> 0:43:10.390 just really, really cool people in the space that are 0:43:10.480 --> 0:43:14.800 driving the frontiers of technology and innovation. We had the 0:43:14.800 --> 0:43:17.380 founder of Siri a while ago. They always do a 0:43:17.380 --> 0:43:20.410 very small roundtable at the end of the public facing event, 0:43:20.410 --> 0:43:23.530 where it's just a handful of less than a dozen people, 0:43:23.530 --> 0:43:25.660 and they get to interact in a very small group 0:43:25.660 --> 0:43:29.170 setting with our speaker. So if anyone who is listening 0:43:29.170 --> 0:43:33.370 here is just interested in getting involved and participating in 0:43:33.370 --> 0:43:36.459 these smaller group gathering sessions, I think that's another great 0:43:36.460 --> 0:43:39.340 way to plug in. And of course, any university network 0:43:39.340 --> 0:43:42.970 will always have classes that are open. Berkeley, for example, 0:43:42.969 --> 0:43:46.870 I have a ton of folks who have audited or 0:43:46.870 --> 0:43:50.530 sat in on my classes. So I always encourage people 0:43:50.530 --> 0:43:52.420 to reach out if they're interested in plugging in in 0:43:52.420 --> 0:43:56.200 any way. And I'm really excited to continue to see 0:43:56.200 --> 0:43:58.569 where you take your community as well, because I think 0:43:58.570 --> 0:44:00.670 this is really meaningful work that you do. 0:44:01.150 --> 0:44:04.960 Well, thank you for your time. Thank you for sharing 0:44:04.960 --> 0:44:07.870 your expertise. I know the listeners are going to love this. 0:44:07.870 --> 0:44:13.180 Make sure to subscribe to check out everything that she 0:44:13.180 --> 0:44:17.230 is up to. Connect with her and follow her on LinkedIn. 0:44:17.950 --> 0:44:20.140 It has been such an honor. Such a pleasure. Thank 0:44:20.170 --> 0:44:21.910 you for being on work, woman, and I will talk 0:44:21.910 --> 0:44:22.750 to you soon. 0:44:22.780 --> 0:44:24.370 Thank you so much, Natalie.