Gillian Bowen, Host: Hello, my name is Gillian Bowen, the Australian Manager of
Gillian Bowen, Host: Public Affairs at Chartered Accountants ANZ or CA ANZ. This is
Gillian Bowen, Host: Small Firm, Big Impact.
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: We're hearing lots of feedback from our members about the
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: ATO being slow to get back to them and to
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: respond to client needs. We're also hearing from members that
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: they're feeling a lot of tax administration is being pushed
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: onto them by the ATO. They're finding it difficult to
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: deal with PayG instalments. They're finding that communication from the
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: ATO is excessive and is not well targeted. Unless we
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: start lodging complaints about slow processes with the ATO, the
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: issue remains below the surface.
Gillian Bowen, Host: It's the podcast giving you and your clients the up
Gillian Bowen, Host: to date information you need to do your jobs. Each episode,
Gillian Bowen, Host: I share resources, tools, and expert advice provided by CA
Gillian Bowen, Host: ANZ and a range of people across our profession. So
Gillian Bowen, Host: make sure you're following the pod in your favourite pod app.
Gillian Bowen, Host: And if you've got an idea for the show, email
Gillian Bowen, Host: podcast@charteredaccountantsanz.com Today we have Senior Tax Advocate Susan Franks, the
Gillian Bowen, Host: topic recent member experiences with the Australian Tax Office and
Gillian Bowen, Host: its services and what CA ANZ is doing to help. Susan Franks,
Gillian Bowen, Host: welcome to Small Firm, Big Impact.
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: Oh hi Gill. It's great to be here.
Gillian Bowen, Host: So in the last week or so, one of our
Gillian Bowen, Host: members posed a few questions to us to ask about
Gillian Bowen, Host: what CA ANZ is doing to advocate on behalf of members
Gillian Bowen, Host: regarding the ATO's recent performance when it comes to service standards.
Gillian Bowen, Host: So our members obviously have a lot of interaction with
Gillian Bowen, Host: the ATO. Now I'll read part of Ashley Carmichael's post.
Gillian Bowen, Host: He says I had the displeasure of following up a
Gillian Bowen, Host: matter today that remains unresolved after six months. This, sadly,
Gillian Bowen, Host: is not a unique case. He goes on. The ATO
Gillian Bowen, Host: complaints department advise that their service standard for resolving complaints
Gillian Bowen, Host: is now blown out to 30 business days, and that
Gillian Bowen, Host: they are receiving 1100 complaints a week. He asks about
Gillian Bowen, Host: Under-resourcing in their processing areas. He asks what action is
Gillian Bowen, Host: happening to address this issue. Mr. Carmichael believes it's costing
Gillian Bowen, Host: CA ANZ members significant resources in wasted time spent following up
Gillian Bowen, Host: unresolved matters and submitting complaints on behalf of clients. And
Gillian Bowen, Host: there are some important points raised here, and I thought
Gillian Bowen, Host: it was an opportunity to discuss what CA ANZ has been
Gillian Bowen, Host: doing on this matter and other issues that are impacting
Gillian Bowen, Host: our members right now. So that's why I've got Susan involved.
Gillian Bowen, Host: Let's get started and pick some of this apart. What
Gillian Bowen, Host: else do you think? Or what else do you know
Gillian Bowen, Host: about the issue that Ashley Carmichael is talking about here?
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: Look, what Ashley is talking about is a very, very
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: common complaint. We're hearing lots of feedback from our members
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: about the ATO being slow to get back to them
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: and to respond to client needs. What we're hearing is
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: the 28 day service standard. Our members are expecting an
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: issue to be resolved in 28 days, and what the
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: ATO doing is not touching an issue until 28 days,
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: then asking a further question. So the 28 day starts
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: again and the matter just goes on and on and on.
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: We're also hearing from members that they're feeling a lot
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: of tax administration is being pushed onto them by the ATO.
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: They're finding it difficult to deal with instalments. They're finding
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: that communication from the ATO is excessive and is not
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: well targeted.
Gillian Bowen, Host: So why is the ATO doing that touch point that
Gillian Bowen, Host: you were talking about in regards to waiting until the
Gillian Bowen, Host: end of the 28 days, and then it kind of
Gillian Bowen, Host: seems to roll on or reset. Why are they doing that?
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: With this issue has been raised by chartered accountants and
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: other industry bodies at the Tax Practitioner Stewardship Group numerous times.
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: It's been an ongoing issue for a number of years
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: when the issue has been raised at the Tax Practitioner
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: Stewardship Group meeting, the ATO points out that accountants are
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: not the only people trying to recruit staff so that
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: they can service taxpayers well. The ATO is also experiencing
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: that issue as well.
Gillian Bowen, Host: So it looks as though then the issue isn't going
Gillian Bowen, Host: to be solved quickly. It's hard to recruit people, as
Gillian Bowen, Host: we would know then. So what is it that is
Gillian Bowen, Host: going to be the next steps here? Then? What is
Gillian Bowen, Host: it that our members can do to try and alleviate
Gillian Bowen, Host: the stress on their end?
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: Well, we've actually been talking to the ATO about this,
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: and unfortunately, getting greater staff into those areas is not
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: the answer at the moment. And what the ATO is
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: looking at is actually putting more of the services through
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: tax agents, online services. So they're trying to put more
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: and more into that product so tax agents can self
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: service more. When we went and spoke to the Inspector
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: General of Taxation about these issues, she actually suggested that
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: we use the complaint line on the basis that what
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: gets measured gets actioned. And what we've found is members
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: that have had issues about the 28 day service period,
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: when they've lodged a complaint with the complaint line, they've
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: actually had their issues resolved fairly quickly.
Gillian Bowen, Host: Let's then talk more in depth about that complaints process,
Gillian Bowen, Host: because it appears to be the way to go to
Gillian Bowen, Host: get some more action done quicker. How does it work?
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: Well, there are several ways that our members can lodge
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: a complaint. If, assuming that most of them are tax agents,
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: what you can do is submit your complaint using the
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: Tax Practitioner Complaints online form through online services for agents.
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: And you do that by going to reports and forms,
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: selecting forms, and then selecting the tax practitioner complaint. You
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: can also phone the ATO using the 1800 199 010 number. Monday
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: to Friday. Or you could write to the ATO. But
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: it's important when you're actually expressing your concern that you
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: write the outcome that you want and provide details that
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: they can action it.
Gillian Bowen, Host: And can you do this after like is there a
Gillian Bowen, Host: time period you have to wait before you're allowed to
Gillian Bowen, Host: lodge a complaint?
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: Well, you.
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: Usually have to wait till at least 28 days so
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: that they can actually have a chance to progress things.
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: And it is preferred that you actually try to resolve
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: it directly with the person you're dealing with as soon
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: as you possibly can. But that can sometimes be difficult
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: because the ATO won't necessarily answer the phone until the
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: 28 day period has finished. And that is particularly problematic
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: if you're trying to negotiate a payment plan with the
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: ATO and get finance for you and your client at
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: the same time.
Gillian Bowen, Host: So there'll be members listening along,
Gillian Bowen, Host: who'll be like, this is ridiculous. We're busy. And then
Gillian Bowen, Host: the only way to get action is to lodge a complaint.
Gillian Bowen, Host: Is there any light at the end of the tunnel,
Gillian Bowen, Host: any sort of solution in the in the short term
Gillian Bowen, Host: to help with this additional admin that they will then
Gillian Bowen, Host: need to start doing.
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: Why do it? Because what gets measured gets actions. So
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: unless we start lodging complaints about slow processes with the ATO,
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: the issue remains below the surface and and festering. If
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: we need to get the Inspector General of Taxation to
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: look at an issue, she needs data to make decisions
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: and to make recommendations. And we also need data for
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: the ..., for the ATO to be seen to be
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: failing some KPIs. So lodge your complaint. Get that data there
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: so real action can be taken going forward.
Gillian Bowen, Host: Okay. So what resources do we have out there to
Gillian Bowen, Host: help with all of this.
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: Well, we've been working continuously with the raising members issues
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: with them. So every time people write to us to
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: taxteamau@charteredaccountantsanz.com or contacts the member helpline, and we get a
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: Salesforce query coming through. We contact the member and talk
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: to them and put them in touch with the appropriate
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: people to resolve their issues. And quite often when we're
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: getting those type of complaints through from members, there's a
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: systemic issue which we then work with the ATO to
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: try and resolve. We've also been hearing a lot of
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: complaints about online services for agents, and it's continuously developing
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: and changing. So what we've got the ATO to agree
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: to is to present a sharing knowledge session twice a year,
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: just on updates in relation to online services for agents,
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: and particularly the deferred lodgement process, to try and help
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: our members understand how the ATO approaches this, these matters,
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: so that they can align their systems more efficiently and
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: effectively within their practices as well.
Gillian Bowen, Host: Have those two sessions for this year already been held
Gillian Bowen, Host: or is there something coming up soon?
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: We've had two sessions this year and they've been very
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: well attended and been very practical. Our members have been
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: very engaged in those sharing knowledge sessions, which is fantastic
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: because what we've been able to do with that data
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: and the questions that our members have asked is de-identify it,
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: group it together and put that back to the ATO saying, look,
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: these are the pain points. These are the issues that
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: our members want to get resolved so they can then
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: work on it. And then they know that in six
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: months time, they're going to be presenting to these same
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: people and they're going to need to do an update
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: for them. So that's the process we've been doing behind
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: the scenes to try and get the ATO to action.
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: Some of the pain points that our members are going.
Gillian Bowen, Host: Through and have they been actioning them?
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: We have. We've had members on deferred lodgement working groups.
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: We've had we've got two current members on the vision
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: for tax agents in 2030, and they are taking their
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: comments on board and designing systems around what our members
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: are actually telling the ATO in the discussions about getting
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: lodgement processes better and the vision for 2030.
Gillian Bowen, Host: So what I will do,
Gillian Bowen, Host: is I'll get the links to those two recent sharing
Gillian Bowen, Host: knowledge sessions and put them in the show notes so
Gillian Bowen, Host: they're easy for people to find. And on that page
Gillian Bowen, Host: as well, I'm sure there will be alerts about the
Gillian Bowen, Host: upcoming sessions that you'll be able to register for next year,
Gillian Bowen, Host: so that you can get all the information that you
Gillian Bowen, Host: need there and continue that conversation, that process, that pipeline
Gillian Bowen, Host: of information between our members and the ATO, because it
Gillian Bowen, Host: sounds like it's very important for getting through some of
Gillian Bowen, Host: those issues and sorting out solutions. Look, we're almost out
Gillian Bowen, Host: of time. Is there anything else that CA ANZ is advocating
Gillian Bowen, Host: on that would be worth our members knowing about?
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: It's actually worth our members knowing about that, we often
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: use tax news to give links to upcoming sharing knowledge sessions,
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: which are very relevant and very practical for our members,
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: and also to use. Call us. Call the member service line.
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: Call it. Write to us via taxteamau@charteredaccountantsanz.com so that your
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: concerns can be addressed and you are heard. In relation
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: to what we're actually going to be talking about next year.
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: We're sitting down and talking to the ATO all the time.
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: So every time that a member writes to us, we're
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: sitting down and discussing that with the ATO. So we've
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: been having monthly meetings with the ATO about debt collection,
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: because there's got $100 billion of tax to collect. They're
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: writing letters to, you know, 20,000 people at a time.
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: So we've got monthly meetings with them to discuss issues
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: that our members are facing. For example, getting SMS messages
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: within two days of a debt being late, the ability
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: to see pay notices or inability rather to see pay notices.
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: Members getting daily calls about a tax debt. Now with
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: that one, the ATO resolved that fairly quickly and they
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: needed to because it was escalating substantially. But the ATO's also
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: gone back and changed the education of their people about
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: how they actually document these calls. We've also been talking
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: about the to the ATO, about how they actually write
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: their letters, making sure that they don't have out to
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: date of information, or sending out letters with no date
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: on them, so that there's less work for our clients.
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: And they've now got a working group that just reviews
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: some of the standard letters before they go out. So
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: there is a lot on and there's a lot that
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: we're doing, and there's a lot of avenues that we're
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: talking to the ATO about. So please keep on writing
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: to us and letting us know what your concerns are
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: so that your views can be represented to the ATO.
Gillian Bowen, Host: Mhm.
Gillian Bowen, Host: Mhm. It's a very good point. And on that if
Gillian Bowen, Host: you want to find out more I will put a
Gillian Bowen, Host: link to all the bits and pieces that Susan has
Gillian Bowen, Host: mentioned in the show notes, so that you can easily
Gillian Bowen, Host: find them. And they'll also be on the show's podcast
Gillian Bowen, Host: page on the CA ANZ website. I'll put a link to
Gillian Bowen, Host: that as well, and I'll include all those contacts that
Gillian Bowen, Host: Susan talked about, because that's important for the members to
Gillian Bowen, Host: keep up their communication with, and said so that we
Gillian Bowen, Host: can then send on that information and advocate on your behalf.
Gillian Bowen, Host: Follow the podcast as well. Search Small Firm, Big Impact
Gillian Bowen, Host: in your podcast app right now and follow. And the
Gillian Bowen, Host: podcast has an email, so feel free to get in touch. podcast@charteredaccountantsanz.com.
Gillian Bowen, Host: Let's start a conversation. Thank you to Ashley Carmichael for
Gillian Bowen, Host: putting that post on social media and letting us have
Gillian Bowen, Host: a discussion about all things ATO and member services. And
Gillian Bowen, Host: thank you to Susan Franks, our Senior Tax Advocate, for
Gillian Bowen, Host: being our expert on Small Firm, Big Impact.
Susan Franks CA, Senior Tax Advocate: You're welcome. Thank you for the opportunity, Gill.
Gillian Bowen, Host: Bye bye.