WEBVTT - How to get help with ethical dilemmas 0:00:08.420 --> 0:00:12.080 Hello, my name is Gillian Bowen, Public Affairs Manager at 0:00:12.080 --> 0:00:16.610 Chartered Accountants, ANZ. This is Small Firm, Big Impact. 0:00:20.860 --> 0:00:26.290 CAAG is, basically groups of senior members located in in New 0:00:26.290 --> 0:00:29.740 Zealand and also in all the states in in Australia 0:00:29.980 --> 0:00:34.839 set up to assist and support members if they're having 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:37.269 professional or ethical dilemmas. 0:00:37.420 --> 0:00:41.560 A lot of it's around client disputes and get into a conflict 0:00:41.560 --> 0:00:44.379 situation or even conflicts with other members. 0:00:44.470 --> 0:00:47.530 We have members that get in touch with us that 0:00:47.530 --> 0:00:50.169 don't have anybody else that they can bounce an idea off. 0:00:56.090 --> 0:00:58.400 It's the podcast giving you and your clients the up 0:00:58.400 --> 0:01:01.250 to date information you need to do your jobs. Each 0:01:01.250 --> 0:01:04.610 fortnight I share resources, tools and expert advice provided by CA 0:01:04.970 --> 0:01:08.060 ANZ and a range of people across our profession. So 0:01:08.060 --> 0:01:11.030 make sure you're following the pod in your favourite podcast app. 0:01:11.030 --> 0:01:13.700 And if you've got an idea for the show email 0:01:13.700 --> 0:01:23.650 podcast@charterdaccountantsanz.com Today we have Ross Jackson, FCA, who's the New 0:01:23.650 --> 0:01:27.610 Zealand chair of the CA Advisory Group, and Merran Brooks, FCA, 0:01:27.610 --> 0:01:30.790 who's a member of the New South Wales CA Advisory Group. 0:01:31.209 --> 0:01:34.870 The topic: what is the CA Advisory Group and how it 0:01:34.870 --> 0:01:39.190 can help you with ethical decisions? Ross and Merran, welcome 0:01:39.190 --> 0:01:40.840 to Small Firm, Big Impact. 0:01:41.440 --> 0:01:42.610 Hey Gill, how are you? 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:45.789 Thanks, Gillian. Welcome and hope you enjoy this podcast. 0:01:46.209 --> 0:01:48.910 I'm really looking forward to the chat that we've got 0:01:48.910 --> 0:01:51.730 planned for today, and I know our members will find 0:01:51.730 --> 0:01:54.400 it insightful as well. So before we get cracking into 0:01:54.400 --> 0:01:57.310 that I thought to start, it might be a good idea 0:01:57.310 --> 0:02:01.240 for you both to give me an overview of your expertise. Ross, 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:03.550 why don't you go first? Tell me a bit about yourself. 0:02:05.190 --> 0:02:07.170 I'm a partner and have been for 30 years in 0:02:07.170 --> 0:02:10.650 a mid-size public practice firm in the lower South island 0:02:10.650 --> 0:02:15.960 of New Zealand, employing around 75 staff, mainly in business advisory. 0:02:16.260 --> 0:02:19.170 And I've had a long association with Chartered Accountants Australia 0:02:19.169 --> 0:02:22.860 and New Zealand. Being chair of the Public Practice Review 0:02:22.860 --> 0:02:27.570 Board and was national president back in 2011 and also 0:02:27.570 --> 0:02:31.290 been the NZ CAAG chair since its inception. 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:34.560 Okay, brilliant. All right. Merran, how about you? 0:02:35.790 --> 0:02:38.520 Mine's a little bit different, I think. Gill. I started 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:41.250 life in a regional city in New South Wales in 0:02:41.250 --> 0:02:43.080 a big four firm as an auditor, like lots of 0:02:43.080 --> 0:02:45.630 people did back then. And I spent some time in 0:02:45.630 --> 0:02:47.970 a second tier, a small practice, and then I had 0:02:47.970 --> 0:02:51.510 my own micro practice for a short time after I 0:02:51.510 --> 0:02:56.220 did my CA program, which was called PY back then, I became 0:02:56.220 --> 0:03:00.660 involved with CA ANZ as a workshop facilitator with the with 0:03:00.660 --> 0:03:03.960 the old CA program. And what I realised at that point was 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:08.400 that I loved teaching. So from that, from facilitating with 0:03:08.940 --> 0:03:11.880 CA AN Z, it's led to a lot of my time 0:03:11.880 --> 0:03:17.070 being spent in education, teaching, post-grad accounting. Through all of 0:03:17.100 --> 0:03:19.620 that time. I've spent a lot of time on various committees, 0:03:19.620 --> 0:03:23.730 state council, national council, as it was with CA ANZ, 0:03:23.730 --> 0:03:27.630 and I've absolutely loved all of my interactions with members 0:03:27.630 --> 0:03:30.090 and students over over that time. 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:32.310 Okay, brilliant. All right. So we've got a bit of 0:03:32.310 --> 0:03:35.370 a taste of how we got to where we are today, 0:03:35.370 --> 0:03:37.920 which is good. Now I want to dive in to 0:03:37.920 --> 0:03:41.880 the topic, Merran I might stick with you are what is 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:45.600 the CA advisory group or as we will call it, as 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:47.630 we go through this episode, CAAG. 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:55.089 Basically groups of senior members located in in New Zealand 0:03:55.090 --> 0:03:58.780 and also in all the states in in Australia set 0:03:58.780 --> 0:04:04.210 up to assist and support members if they're having professional 0:04:04.210 --> 0:04:08.290 or ethical dilemmas. So that's it in a nutshell. Members 0:04:08.290 --> 0:04:10.570 being able to talk to other senior members to get 0:04:10.570 --> 0:04:11.590 some assistance. 0:04:12.220 --> 0:04:15.520 Ross what would you like to add as, as what 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:16.900 you see CAAG's role? 0:04:17.800 --> 0:04:21.700 Look, agree with Merran and it's very much a mentoring guidance 0:04:21.700 --> 0:04:26.740 and support for all members, not just public practice right 0:04:26.740 --> 0:04:31.360 across the board and assisting them with the ethical dilemmas, 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:36.220 some counselling in some cases, and even employment issues and 0:04:36.250 --> 0:04:37.300 a bit of guidance there. 0:04:37.779 --> 0:04:41.500 Okay. Well, let's stick with you then on on that Ross, 0:04:41.500 --> 0:04:45.900 and build on it. You mentioned, you've both mentioned, ethical dilemmas. 0:04:45.910 --> 0:04:48.250 What does that mean exactly? Ross, ehat are the sorts 0:04:48.250 --> 0:04:50.560 of issues that CAAG can assist with? 0:04:52.020 --> 0:04:56.760 A lot of it's around client disputes and get into a conflict 0:04:56.760 --> 0:05:03.330 situation or even conflicts with other members releasing files and 0:05:03.330 --> 0:05:07.800 issues they have regarding their own restraints of trade if they're exiting a 0:05:07.890 --> 0:05:12.480 practice and also those partners and a lot in small practices 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:17.400 that exiting or entering public practice and they come across 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:22.140 a range of ethical dilemmas that challenge them and they 0:05:22.140 --> 0:05:25.620 just need someone to bounce those ideas off and a 0:05:25.620 --> 0:05:27.180 bit of guidance on the way through. 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:29.010 Merran, what 0:05:29.010 --> 0:05:30.300 would you like to add to that? 0:05:30.820 --> 0:05:33.960 Well, I think that that covers it beautifully. What we 0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:37.140 see is that we have members that are get in 0:05:37.140 --> 0:05:40.169 touch with us that don't have anybody else, that they 0:05:40.170 --> 0:05:43.140 can bounce an idea off, whether it's a conflict they 0:05:43.140 --> 0:05:46.080 have with one of their other partners or whether they're 0:05:46.080 --> 0:05:49.020 in a small firm and they have an have an 0:05:49.020 --> 0:05:51.420 issue with a client and there's nobody that they can 0:05:51.420 --> 0:05:54.960 share that with. The other sorts of issues that we 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:58.470 get involved with, apart from conflicts of interest, which are 0:05:59.010 --> 0:06:02.430 make up probably about 80% of what we do. We've 0:06:02.430 --> 0:06:06.029 had situations where we've had the death of a business owner, 0:06:06.029 --> 0:06:10.049 whether in practice and, you know, family members looking for 0:06:10.050 --> 0:06:14.430 assistance with that. We also help out with people who 0:06:14.610 --> 0:06:17.670 get on the wrong side of the disciplinary process. And 0:06:17.670 --> 0:06:20.970 they may have had a complaint either justified or unjustified 0:06:20.970 --> 0:06:24.870 from a client. And the members come to us and 0:06:24.870 --> 0:06:27.719 look for guidance as to how that process is likely 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:30.900 to play out and we can give them some assistance 0:06:31.260 --> 0:06:34.830 with navigating that process. The other sorts of things we 0:06:34.830 --> 0:06:39.120 get is for for members that are in business, particularly 0:06:39.120 --> 0:06:42.480 when they've just made that adjustment into business away from 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:46.619 practice where they're looking for assistance as to the differing 0:06:46.740 --> 0:06:49.529 roles and responsibilities they might have and things that they 0:06:49.529 --> 0:06:52.679 might come across in a different environment from practice. 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:58.890 Ross what is, what is a conflict of interest look like? 0:06:58.890 --> 0:07:02.430 Is it do you think that this is where where 0:07:02.430 --> 0:07:04.920 there's a lot of help that's needed in regards to 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:07.950 how that can present to you at any time of 0:07:07.950 --> 0:07:10.020 of the day of your working week? 0:07:10.620 --> 0:07:14.580 It can, any time. I think conflict is really a 0:07:14.580 --> 0:07:19.559 gut feel of something doesn't feel right. And you have 0:07:19.980 --> 0:07:25.200 two parties that wants some advice. You may have a relationship 0:07:25.200 --> 0:07:29.900 with one or relationship with both, and they can't reach 0:07:29.910 --> 0:07:36.240 unanimous decision or in a marriage split relationship property. You 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:37.800 just need to be really careful that it can't be 0:07:37.800 --> 0:07:39.690 advising both sides of the deal really. 0:07:40.190 --> 0:07:41.040 Mm hmm. 0:07:41.100 --> 0:07:45.240 And Ross, what is it that CAAG doesn't cover? What are 0:07:45.240 --> 0:07:47.670 the sorts of things you can't get help from CAAG with? 0:07:48.300 --> 0:07:49.950 I think the most important thing is we don't give 0:07:49.950 --> 0:07:55.020 legal advice and but we can advise or refer to 0:07:55.020 --> 0:07:59.520 lawyers if it's appropriate. We don't get too involved in 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:04.320 technical matters. Again, we'll let you know where you can 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:09.770 go to get assistance for that and any non-work related matters. Um, 0:08:09.930 --> 0:08:14.790 often you get personal and work related intertwined a bit, 0:08:14.790 --> 0:08:19.770 but we we steer clear of the non-work related. But 0:08:19.770 --> 0:08:22.650 the other part I'm particularly careful of is if someone 0:08:22.650 --> 0:08:28.500 is already in the disciplinary process with Chartered Accountants Australia and New Zealand, 0:08:28.500 --> 0:08:30.720 that we can give a bit of guidance, but we 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:36.090 don't want to give advice in respect to the discipline matters. 0:08:37.260 --> 0:08:40.230 So there's a few constraints there for for good reason. 0:08:40.590 --> 0:08:44.550 Perfectly happy to give them suggestions and where else they 0:08:44.550 --> 0:08:45.720 might get assistance. 0:08:46.230 --> 0:08:48.179 That's right. So you guys have got those sorts of 0:08:48.179 --> 0:08:50.430 tools at your fingertips to be able to point people 0:08:50.429 --> 0:08:52.920 in the right direction. I do like that idea. Merran, 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:55.080 what are the types of members who usually use the 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:56.280 CAAG service? 0:08:57.090 --> 0:08:59.520 Often it's members that are just trying to clarify their 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:03.179 own thinking so that they've got they've got a good 0:09:03.179 --> 0:09:05.880 idea as to the issue that they've got and they've 0:09:05.880 --> 0:09:08.760 got a good idea as to what the solution is, 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:12.570 but they're looking for feedback from somebody else. So it 0:09:12.570 --> 0:09:17.400 can be partners in firms, it can be younger members 0:09:17.400 --> 0:09:21.240 in a in a new role that they're unsure about. 0:09:21.420 --> 0:09:27.500 It can be issues that members haven't dealt with before. 0:09:27.530 --> 0:09:30.650 Often what we see are the tricky issues. So it's 0:09:30.650 --> 0:09:33.350 any member that's got a tricky issue that they really 0:09:33.350 --> 0:09:34.490 want some help with. 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:35.570 It's a bit of a sense check. 0:09:35.570 --> 0:09:36.939 We can we can give them a bit of a 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:39.230 a bit of guidance on it. 0:09:39.590 --> 0:09:41.329 Okay. So I feel like we've given a bit a 0:09:41.330 --> 0:09:43.220 good overview, a bit of a sprinkling, as I like 0:09:43.220 --> 0:09:45.620 to say, of, of, of what CAAG is and how 0:09:45.620 --> 0:09:49.160 it works. Ross the next question is how do members 0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:53.150 access it? How do they get involved, does it cost, anything, all 0:09:53.150 --> 0:09:54.410 those sorts of details. 0:09:55.720 --> 0:09:59.530 There's a variety of ways to contact us. Certainly the 0:09:59.530 --> 0:10:02.559 website is probably the first port of call. I know 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:05.979 that we're all listed. I checked that before. And the 0:10:05.980 --> 0:10:13.360 contact details. Brilliant. Contact the Chartered Accountants directly. The professional support 0:10:13.630 --> 0:10:18.040 staff will give assistance and then they will contact us 0:10:19.390 --> 0:10:24.910 with potential members that need some assistance. The local leadership team. 0:10:26.780 --> 0:10:29.180 I know that. And also the local regional manager has 0:10:29.900 --> 0:10:34.429 often a port of call too, so members can get in touch pretty 0:10:34.429 --> 0:10:37.910 easily and then directed through. 0:10:38.170 --> 0:10:40.700 Indeed. And we'll make sure we put the links to 0:10:40.700 --> 0:10:43.490 all those contacts and where information is about CAAG on the website. 0:10:43.490 --> 0:10:45.380 So it's easy to find. I'll put that in the 0:10:45.380 --> 0:10:49.040 show notes in the description of the episode. Before we 0:10:49.040 --> 0:10:51.709 wrap out of run Out of time Merran I was 0:10:51.710 --> 0:10:54.979 thinking if I've got an issue right now, is there 0:10:54.980 --> 0:10:57.079 a long wait? Is it hard? What do I need 0:10:57.080 --> 0:10:59.690 to do to get it on on CAAG agenda so 0:10:59.690 --> 0:11:01.820 it can be dealt with swiftly? 0:11:02.770 --> 0:11:05.230 All of our things are dealt with. What I consider 0:11:05.230 --> 0:11:08.800 to be very swiftly, once you've made that contact and 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:12.490 most of ours come through our regional manager in the end. Um, 0:11:12.700 --> 0:11:17.350 once the regional manager has had a chat with the member, 0:11:17.350 --> 0:11:21.670 usually what our, our people do is they identify the 0:11:21.670 --> 0:11:24.850 member of CAAG who is most appropriate to help them. 0:11:24.850 --> 0:11:27.880 So if it's a practice matter, it'll go to a 0:11:27.880 --> 0:11:31.150 prac member in practice. If it's a, you know, so 0:11:31.150 --> 0:11:34.689 they can match up the best fit and if they 0:11:34.690 --> 0:11:37.570 they get in touch with the CAAG member and then 0:11:37.570 --> 0:11:39.790 we make touch, we get in touch with the, with 0:11:39.790 --> 0:11:43.030 the member directly. Usually it's a, it's a 24, 48 0:11:43.030 --> 0:11:44.020 hour turnaround. 0:11:44.380 --> 0:11:47.650 Oh, brilliant. Okay. And Ross, what about confidentiality? 0:11:48.300 --> 0:11:52.870 Look, certainly totally, totally confidential. Uh, the other point, just 0:11:52.870 --> 0:11:55.930 picking up on Merran there. When we do get cases, 0:11:56.410 --> 0:11:59.050 we go through a pretty thorough conflict of interest. But 0:11:59.050 --> 0:12:01.569 we don't know the members. Often in New Zealand we 0:12:01.570 --> 0:12:04.090 will deal with members out of our region so we 0:12:04.090 --> 0:12:07.570 don't actually know them. Yeah, you know, it's a pretty 0:12:07.570 --> 0:12:11.860 small place in New Zealand and one degree of separation, 0:12:11.860 --> 0:12:14.820 so we need to be. Everyone needs to know it's 0:12:14.820 --> 0:12:17.880 totally confidential and that there is no conflict. 0:12:18.090 --> 0:12:20.100 Yes. That you've done your own checks and balances in 0:12:20.100 --> 0:12:22.439 your end, too. I do like this extra detail. I'm 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:26.219 thinking as well. If there are cans members listening along 0:12:26.220 --> 0:12:28.770 who think, Oh gosh, have the expertise or experience there, 0:12:28.770 --> 0:12:31.560 I could be helpful in this in this role. I'm 0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:35.520 interested in joining the CA advisory group. Merran what is the 0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:37.050 process to get involved? 0:12:38.580 --> 0:12:41.580 I think it's it's mostly just. If you do know 0:12:41.580 --> 0:12:44.729 anybody that's already on the on CAAG speak to them 0:12:44.730 --> 0:12:48.210 about what that role involves and then they can they 0:12:48.210 --> 0:12:51.839 can let you know the process from there. I think 0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:54.209 I think it's it's a case of we try and 0:12:54.210 --> 0:12:58.860 keep a broad spread within each group of expertise. So 0:12:58.860 --> 0:13:01.740 if we're, you know, top heavy in a particular area 0:13:01.740 --> 0:13:04.170 and that's your area, maybe there'll be a short wait 0:13:04.170 --> 0:13:07.350 before you can come on to CAAG. But we're certainly 0:13:07.350 --> 0:13:10.739 always looking for members that are keen. There's got to 0:13:10.740 --> 0:13:14.489 be a fit with the with the expertise that we're 0:13:14.490 --> 0:13:15.990 looking for at the time. But.. 0:13:15.990 --> 0:13:16.590 That's. Right. 0:13:16.740 --> 0:13:19.740 Please, please always get in touch with us. And if 0:13:19.740 --> 0:13:22.080 we don't necessarily have a role for you on CAAG, 0:13:22.080 --> 0:13:24.300 I'm sure there are other committees if you've got an 0:13:24.300 --> 0:13:26.150 interest that you can involved with. 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:28.350 Yes, that's right. Ross, anything you'd like to add? 0:13:29.290 --> 0:13:31.559 Yeah, we do the same. We're looking always looking for 0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:36.000 succession here. We do have a rough skills matrix. What 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:42.120 we're looking gender's important to, um, often often find female 0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:46.080 members do want to ..way more comfortable talking to another 0:13:46.470 --> 0:13:52.740 female member, and we'll make sure the whole gamut is 0:13:52.740 --> 0:13:56.689 covered through corporate and public practice and wider. 0:13:58.210 --> 0:14:00.910 Brilliant. All right. So we're we're out of time. I'm 0:14:00.910 --> 0:14:04.090 going to wrap this up. Final thought Merran on on any 0:14:04.090 --> 0:14:06.490 anything you want to add in regards to CAAG why did 0:14:06.490 --> 0:14:09.069 you get involved, why it's a good service. Over to you. 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:12.850 Oh, look, I think from a from a personal perspective, 0:14:12.850 --> 0:14:15.970 from the CAAG group itself, it's a fantastic way of of 0:14:15.970 --> 0:14:19.210 staying connected with your professional body and being able to 0:14:19.210 --> 0:14:23.250 assist members, use some of your expertise to assist other members. 0:14:23.260 --> 0:14:25.000 I think that's what I get out of it. And 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:28.060 hopefully the response we get from the members we help 0:14:28.060 --> 0:14:30.820 is overwhelmingly positive. They just love being able to speak 0:14:30.820 --> 0:14:34.090 to to somebody else that knows what they're going through. 0:14:34.570 --> 0:14:35.860 Ross, anything from you? 0:14:36.660 --> 0:14:39.220 You know, look, I enjoy giving some advice and giving 0:14:39.220 --> 0:14:42.520 members assistance. It's my way of giving back to a 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:45.220 profession that's been really good to me over the years too. 0:14:45.220 --> 0:14:47.410 And if I can help some members, of course, it's 0:14:47.410 --> 0:14:50.590 all free of charge. We give up our time and 0:14:50.590 --> 0:14:52.300 there's no cost to the members to. 0:14:53.040 --> 0:14:54.900 Gosh, I love it. We've covered a lot. That is 0:14:54.900 --> 0:14:56.760 all we have time for. If you want to find 0:14:56.760 --> 0:14:59.610 out more about the CA advisory group and how to use it, 0:14:59.610 --> 0:15:00.900 as I said, I'll put a link in the show 0:15:00.900 --> 0:15:03.660 notes with all the information that you need, and I'll 0:15:03.660 --> 0:15:07.410 also include a link to some recent ethics resources which 0:15:07.410 --> 0:15:09.840 are also worth a read as well. And have you 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:13.440 followed the podcast in your favorite podcast app yet? Do 0:15:13.440 --> 0:15:16.050 it today. The podcast has an email, so feel free 0:15:16.050 --> 0:15:22.020 to get in touch. Podcast@charteredaccountantsanz.com Let's start a conversation. Thank 0:15:22.020 --> 0:15:25.230 you Merran Brooks and Ross Jackson for being my experts 0:15:25.230 --> 0:15:27.270 on Small Firm, Big Impact. 0:15:27.690 --> 0:15:28.860 Thanks Gill. It's been great. 0:15:29.310 --> 0:15:32.370 Thanks and I really hope members get something out of this. 0:15:32.940 --> 0:15:33.960 Bye bye.