WEBVTT - The CA ANZ complaints process 0:00:08.030 --> 0:00:12.170 Hello, my name is Gillian Bowen. This is Small Firm, 0:00:12.170 --> 0:00:13.310 Big Impact. 0:00:19.579 --> 0:00:22.700 Complaints have to be made in writing and submitted with 0:00:22.700 --> 0:00:27.500 a signed copy of our form. Uh, generally, we need evidence, um, 0:00:27.500 --> 0:00:30.120 to be provided in support of the complaint. 0:00:31.230 --> 0:00:34.140 For Australian and rest of the world members outside of New Zealand. Um, 0:00:34.140 --> 0:00:37.050 the By Laws is the critical starting point in relation 0:00:37.050 --> 0:00:39.690 to their conduct. And for New Zealand based members, it's 0:00:39.690 --> 0:00:44.310 the NZICA rules, and the By-Laws and the rules incorporate 0:00:44.670 --> 0:00:49.110 the Code of Ethics and the other professional and technical standards. 0:00:49.110 --> 0:00:53.760 You should be responsive. So that includes um, being careful 0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:59.310 to comply with time frames in which responses might be requested. Um, 0:00:59.310 --> 0:01:01.770 and if you need more time, just ask and tell 0:01:01.770 --> 0:01:05.039 us why. We're usually pretty flexible about that. 0:01:08.220 --> 0:01:11.220 It's the podcast giving chartered accountants the up to date 0:01:11.220 --> 0:01:14.760 information they need to do their jobs. Each episode I 0:01:14.760 --> 0:01:18.970 share resources, tools, and expert advice provided by Chartered Accountants 0:01:18.970 --> 0:01:21.970 Australia and New Zealand and a range of people across 0:01:21.970 --> 0:01:25.450 our profession. So get following the pod in your favourite 0:01:25.450 --> 0:01:34.810 podcast app. Let's start a conversation. Today we have Kate Dixon, 0:01:34.810 --> 0:01:39.070 Australian Conduct Leader, and Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader. 0:01:39.100 --> 0:01:43.640 The topic the complaints process for members of Chartered Accountants 0:01:43.640 --> 0:01:47.570 Australia and New Zealand. Kate and Rebecca. Welcome to Small Firm, 0:01:47.570 --> 0:01:48.560 Big Impact. 0:01:48.740 --> 0:01:49.460 Morning, Gill. 0:01:49.490 --> 0:01:51.380 Hi, Gill. Great to be here. Thank you. 0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:54.530 Okay, uh, I want to take a minute first to 0:01:54.530 --> 0:01:57.650 get to know our experts, because that is the best 0:01:57.650 --> 0:02:00.110 way to set this up so people know who we're 0:02:00.110 --> 0:02:02.570 talking to and why we're talking to you. Kate, what 0:02:02.570 --> 0:02:04.280 do you do at CA ANZ? 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:08.519 Well, as conduct leader, I'm responsible for all the complaint, 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:12.900 investigations and disciplinary proceedings in relation to members and former 0:02:12.900 --> 0:02:16.529 members in Australia and the rest of the world outside 0:02:16.530 --> 0:02:21.120 of New Zealand. So this includes, um, also includes supporting 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:24.750 our disciplinary panels to carry out their roles in relation 0:02:24.750 --> 0:02:27.090 to complaints and disciplinary proceedings. 0:02:27.600 --> 0:02:29.280 Okay. All right. Becky, how about you. 0:02:29.820 --> 0:02:35.250 So likewise, I'm responsible for the disciplinary function in New Zealand. Um, 0:02:35.250 --> 0:02:38.940 my team is a small multidisciplinary team. We're made up 0:02:38.940 --> 0:02:43.500 of lawyers, a chartered accountant, uh, and another investigator and 0:02:43.500 --> 0:02:48.780 two administrators. Um, as with the Australian counterparts, we're responsible 0:02:48.780 --> 0:02:53.970 for investigating complaints and then managing disciplinary proceedings before the 0:02:53.970 --> 0:02:58.640 Disciplinary Tribunal and Appeals Council and supporting those bodies. Um, 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:03.380 we investigate complaints about current and former members and also 0:03:03.380 --> 0:03:08.060 certain non-members who are licensed or recognised by NZICA in 0:03:08.060 --> 0:03:11.810 accordance with statute or the NZICA rules. So that includes, 0:03:11.810 --> 0:03:14.930 for example, licensed insolvency practitioners. 0:03:15.350 --> 0:03:17.750 Mhm. Mhm. Okay. So a big job for you both. 0:03:17.750 --> 0:03:20.869 An important job for you both. Before we dive into 0:03:20.870 --> 0:03:24.050 the complaints and conducts process I think it's worth explaining 0:03:24.110 --> 0:03:26.660 uh the names of the disciplinary bodies. You've touched on 0:03:26.660 --> 0:03:28.850 a couple there but um the names of them and 0:03:28.850 --> 0:03:32.420 how they handle complaints and investigations at CA ANZ and 0:03:32.419 --> 0:03:35.420 perhaps a bit of a brief rundown about what they do. Um, Kate, 0:03:35.420 --> 0:03:38.060 why don't you start? What's the structure look like? 0:03:38.060 --> 0:03:42.050 So we have four main bodies. Uh, the first one 0:03:42.050 --> 0:03:46.500 is the Professional Conduct Committee, and that's responsible for, uh, 0:03:46.500 --> 0:03:51.450 receiving and initiating complaints, uh, and then investigating them. And 0:03:51.450 --> 0:03:54.540 the committee can decide not to investigate on a complaint. Uh, 0:03:54.540 --> 0:03:57.120 or if it is investigated, it will decide on the 0:03:57.120 --> 0:04:00.720 complaint outcome. And that can include referring the matter to 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:03.900 the Disciplinary Tribunal. Um, so then we moved to the 0:04:03.900 --> 0:04:07.500 Disciplinary Tribunal, which hears and determines complaints made to it 0:04:07.500 --> 0:04:11.470 by the Professional Conduct Committee. And we also have an 0:04:11.470 --> 0:04:14.920 Appeals Council which hears and determines any appeals of decisions 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:20.170 of the Disciplinary Tribunal. And then lastly, we also have 0:04:20.170 --> 0:04:23.980 the Professional Conduct Oversight Committee, and that has oversight responsibility 0:04:23.980 --> 0:04:27.910 for the integrity, timeliness and effectiveness of the disciplinary system 0:04:27.910 --> 0:04:28.810 as a whole. 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:31.630 Mhm. So a lot going on there. And Becky what 0:04:31.630 --> 0:04:34.729 about then in New Zealand for our members who are 0:04:34.730 --> 0:04:35.659 based there? 0:04:35.990 --> 0:04:40.969 Sure. So, similarly, we have three disciplinary bodies being the 0:04:40.970 --> 0:04:45.890 Professional Conduct Committee, Disciplinary Tribunal and Appeals Council. Um, and 0:04:45.890 --> 0:04:49.130 they all have the same remit as the three bodies 0:04:49.130 --> 0:04:52.940 in Australia. Um, but in New Zealand, these are statutory 0:04:52.940 --> 0:04:58.250 bodies prescribed by the New Zealand Institute of Chartered Accountants Act. 0:04:58.700 --> 0:05:03.469 Um our process is overseen by the NZICA Regulatory Board. 0:05:03.500 --> 0:05:07.190 That board has a slightly different remit, slightly broader remit 0:05:07.190 --> 0:05:12.260 than the Professional Conduct Oversight Committee, as it's NZICA's Board, um, 0:05:12.260 --> 0:05:17.299 responsible for its statutory functions. Um, but its core responsibility 0:05:17.300 --> 0:05:21.270 is to oversee the regulation discipline of members in New Zealand. 0:05:21.420 --> 0:05:25.950 But it also has some additional responsibilities, for example, prescribing 0:05:25.950 --> 0:05:29.670 the Code of ethics and other standards. Um, the other 0:05:29.670 --> 0:05:32.790 core role in the complaints process, and this applies both 0:05:32.790 --> 0:05:36.719 to New Zealand and Australia, is the reviewer of complaints. 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:41.520 So that sort of separate um from the three main bodies. Um, 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:44.910 but either the member or the complainant involved in the 0:05:44.910 --> 0:05:48.450 complaint can seek a review of certain decisions of the 0:05:48.450 --> 0:05:53.040 Professional Conduct Committee by the reviewer of complaints. Uh, reviewers 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:56.850 are independent lawyers and they can look at, um, sort 0:05:56.850 --> 0:05:59.550 of the process followed by the committee and the reasonableness 0:05:59.550 --> 0:06:03.960 of its decisions and make recommendations to the committee. So 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:07.470 it's it's it's not quite a full appeal process. Um, 0:06:07.470 --> 0:06:11.979 but it's, um, a bit of a recourse outside of the, um, 0:06:11.980 --> 0:06:18.070 Professional Conduct Committee's decision making process to, um, look at 0:06:18.070 --> 0:06:19.240 their decisions. 0:06:19.839 --> 0:06:22.359 I can imagine if members are listening along right now, 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:25.839 all of that might sound quite complex and, um, indeed, um, 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:27.940 quite intense to get your head around. So maybe we 0:06:27.940 --> 0:06:30.070 take a step back. Um, Becky, I'm thinking if I 0:06:30.070 --> 0:06:32.770 was a member of the public, um, let's look at 0:06:32.770 --> 0:06:34.250 it from that side first. If I was a member 0:06:34.250 --> 0:06:36.050 of the public and I wanted to make a complaint 0:06:36.050 --> 0:06:39.440 about a chartered accountant, how would I do that? 0:06:39.740 --> 0:06:45.049 Sure. So, um, it's very easy. Uh, first thing to do, uh, 0:06:45.170 --> 0:06:47.210 jump on our website and have a bit of a 0:06:47.210 --> 0:06:51.229 read up about the complaints process in the first instance. Um, 0:06:51.230 --> 0:06:53.839 on the website, we've got a complaint form that they'll 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:57.140 need to download. Uh, complaints have to be made in 0:06:57.140 --> 0:07:01.810 writing and submitted with a signed copy of our form. Uh, generally, 0:07:01.810 --> 0:07:05.170 we need evidence, um, to be provided in support of 0:07:05.170 --> 0:07:08.950 the complaint. Then that could cover a whole range of things. 0:07:08.950 --> 0:07:12.010 It's going to depend on the nature of the issues 0:07:12.010 --> 0:07:16.570 and the relationship between the parties. But, um, for example, 0:07:16.570 --> 0:07:20.140 it might be things like the engagement letter. Um, copies 0:07:20.140 --> 0:07:26.140 of relevant correspondence or contracts, um, financial statements or reports 0:07:26.140 --> 0:07:31.990 or trust deeds or whatever. So relevant evidence um supported, supporting 0:07:31.990 --> 0:07:35.680 a signed complaint form and that can be either emailed 0:07:35.680 --> 0:07:39.070 or posted to us. And we then sort of kick 0:07:39.070 --> 0:07:42.250 off the review of that process and look at whether 0:07:42.250 --> 0:07:46.450 it's within our jurisdiction and, and then whether we're going 0:07:46.450 --> 0:07:47.830 to investigate it. 0:07:48.550 --> 0:07:51.250 So then Kate on that what happens next. So the 0:07:51.250 --> 0:07:54.880 complaint comes in to CA ANZ and then what do you 0:07:54.880 --> 0:07:55.720 guys do? 0:07:56.200 --> 0:08:00.460 So, um, once we've gathered, gathered, um, the evidence from 0:08:00.460 --> 0:08:03.490 the complainant in support of the complaint, um, if it's 0:08:03.490 --> 0:08:05.590 going to be investigated, we will write to the member 0:08:05.590 --> 0:08:08.410 and seek their response to the complaint. And we then 0:08:08.410 --> 0:08:11.239 have an exchange of correspondence with the member and the 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:14.810 complainant until enough information about the the issues in the 0:08:14.810 --> 0:08:18.290 complaint is gathered. And at that stage, it will all 0:08:18.290 --> 0:08:21.110 be considered by the Professional Conduct Committee. And and the 0:08:21.110 --> 0:08:23.300 committee will either make a decision in relation to the 0:08:23.300 --> 0:08:27.530 complaint or initiate further investigations itself. 0:08:27.950 --> 0:08:31.100 So then imagine um, I guess then let's, let's I 0:08:31.100 --> 0:08:33.740 guess we're, we're going to assume then that it is 0:08:33.740 --> 0:08:37.410 going to be pursued by the Professional Conduct Committee or 0:08:37.410 --> 0:08:41.100 what we, we call the PCC, save us having to 0:08:41.100 --> 0:08:43.079 say it every single time. Um, we live in a 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:45.780 world of acronyms, don't we, Becky? What happens after that? 0:08:46.350 --> 0:08:51.330 So at first instance, once we've done our investigation, um, 0:08:51.330 --> 0:08:55.890 the complaint is considered by the committee on the papers. Um, 0:08:55.890 --> 0:09:00.010 after that, in some cases, the committee may, um, hold 0:09:00.130 --> 0:09:03.700 something called a case conference. And that's an in person 0:09:03.700 --> 0:09:09.580 investigative meeting with the parties, um, usually members are required 0:09:09.580 --> 0:09:15.010 to attend sometimes um, and complainants may be invited to attend. Uh, 0:09:15.010 --> 0:09:18.790 and they're really looking at so they're wanting to discuss 0:09:18.790 --> 0:09:22.900 the complaint, um, with them and determining whether or not 0:09:22.900 --> 0:09:27.370 it's serious enough to be referred to the disciplinary tribunal. Um, 0:09:27.370 --> 0:09:31.540 sometimes either before that or after that process, the committee 0:09:31.540 --> 0:09:37.450 may also appoint an external investigator or expert to assist with, um, 0:09:37.450 --> 0:09:41.350 particular sort of line of inquiries. So, um, that's often 0:09:41.350 --> 0:09:44.199 if there's sort of like a very technical element to it, 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:48.650 say an assurance complaint, um, or maybe something that has 0:09:48.650 --> 0:09:53.600 a forensic component. Um, or they may order a practice review. Uh, 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:56.780 if a complaint is serious, it will be referred to 0:09:56.780 --> 0:10:01.580 the disciplinary tribunal for hearing. Um, the tribunal process is 0:10:01.580 --> 0:10:05.600 certainly a more formal legal proceeding. Um, uh, the PCC 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:09.380 bears the onus of proof as the prosecutor and formal 0:10:09.380 --> 0:10:15.150 charges and evidence are presented. Um members are often legally represented, 0:10:15.150 --> 0:10:18.630 and it's usually in their best interests to be. Um, 0:10:18.630 --> 0:10:22.080 there's a presumption at those hearings, um, both before the 0:10:22.080 --> 0:10:26.040 Disciplinary Tribunal and the Appeals Council. Um, that the matter 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:29.160 will be heard in public. So we may have the 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:33.300 media attending or members of the public. Um, and also, 0:10:33.300 --> 0:10:36.880 there's a presumption that decisions are published with the member's 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:40.960 name and location, although, of course, members can make submissions 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:45.610 against this, um, you know, a separate name suppression application 0:10:45.610 --> 0:10:49.570 if there's good reasons. Um, and then if either the 0:10:49.570 --> 0:10:53.470 member or the PCC is unhappy with the decision of 0:10:53.470 --> 0:10:56.920 the Disciplinary Tribunal, they can lodge an appeal to the 0:10:56.920 --> 0:11:01.390 Appeals Council. Um, appeals can cover a range of things, 0:11:01.390 --> 0:11:05.559 so it might be the substantive decision about the liability. 0:11:05.559 --> 0:11:08.620 So whether or not the case has been proved, um, 0:11:08.620 --> 0:11:13.600 or it could be decisions around the sanctions, um, or 0:11:13.600 --> 0:11:19.360 the costs orders or um, also publication or declining suppression 0:11:19.360 --> 0:11:22.540 or whatever. So there's a range of things that can 0:11:22.540 --> 0:11:25.130 be appealed. And it might not be all parts of 0:11:25.130 --> 0:11:30.320 the tribunal's decision. Um, and in New Zealand, um after 0:11:30.320 --> 0:11:34.069 the and this is different from Australia, um, but it's 0:11:34.070 --> 0:11:38.359 because of the sort of statutory nature of our process. Um, 0:11:38.360 --> 0:11:42.950 if a party is ultimately unhappy with the Appeals Council's decision, 0:11:42.950 --> 0:11:47.210 there's ultimate recourse to the courts via judicial review. 0:11:47.540 --> 0:11:48.440 Mhm. Mhm. 0:11:48.710 --> 0:11:53.100 Kate. It sounds like a very, um, layered, um and 0:11:53.100 --> 0:11:58.710 thorough process. How long does that usually take. 0:11:58.920 --> 0:12:01.320 So it really does depend on the complexity of the 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:05.640 matter and also how responsive um, members and complainants are. 0:12:05.640 --> 0:12:09.450 But we typically say um, it usually takes between about 0:12:09.450 --> 0:12:13.320 four and nine months for complaint investigations, uh, to be completed, 0:12:13.330 --> 0:12:16.959 but of course it would be a longer time period, 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:19.000 you know, if the matter is referred to the Disciplinary Tribunal, 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:21.160 because that's a whole that's a new process and that, 0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:22.689 you know, that's going to take a few months to 0:12:22.690 --> 0:12:26.590 complete as well. Um, but of course, um, some complex 0:12:26.590 --> 0:12:28.900 complaints will take, will take a long time to complete, 0:12:28.900 --> 0:12:30.730 but we always aim to do them as fast to, 0:12:30.730 --> 0:12:32.320 you know, to get through them as fast as possible 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:34.870 because we understand it's such a stressful process. 0:12:34.990 --> 0:12:37.450 Mhm. Mhm. That's right. Yes that's right. Everyone's looking for 0:12:37.450 --> 0:12:40.660 the outcome to be delivered as quickly as humanly possible 0:12:40.660 --> 0:12:43.810 so to speak. And what is it that you are 0:12:44.050 --> 0:12:47.620 measuring members against in all of this. How do how 0:12:47.620 --> 0:12:50.079 do you know what it is as the benchmark that 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:52.150 that members should be behaving against? 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:55.929 So for Australian and rest of the world members outside 0:12:55.929 --> 0:12:58.660 of New Zealand, um, the by laws is the critical 0:12:58.660 --> 0:13:01.210 starting point in relation to their conduct. And for New 0:13:01.210 --> 0:13:05.150 Zealand based members, it's the NZICA rules, and the By-Laws 0:13:05.150 --> 0:13:09.650 and the Rules incorporate the the Code of Ethics and 0:13:09.650 --> 0:13:13.160 the other professional and technical standards. And so that's the 0:13:13.160 --> 0:13:16.610 starting point. Um, and that's, that's that, that they're the 0:13:16.610 --> 0:13:18.830 documents that sort of set the standards by which members 0:13:18.830 --> 0:13:20.030 conduct is examined. 0:13:20.030 --> 0:13:23.330 And for example, Kate, then if someone does make a complaint, 0:13:23.330 --> 0:13:26.880 you often let people know that actually if it doesn't 0:13:26.880 --> 0:13:30.810 fit in with our By-Laws, you can't investigate. 0:13:30.990 --> 0:13:34.410 Yeah that's right. And sometimes there's other more appropriate bodies 0:13:34.410 --> 0:13:38.100 that might actually have jurisdiction for a particular type of conduct. 0:13:38.100 --> 0:13:41.640 But it has to be, um, a the conduct that 0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:44.220 we investigate needs to be something that's covered by the 0:13:44.220 --> 0:13:48.000 bylaws and rules and the various codes and regulations, etc.. 0:13:48.179 --> 0:13:50.729 So as a professional membership body, we've got our own 0:13:50.730 --> 0:13:53.790 remit and that is the lane that we, um, are 0:13:53.790 --> 0:13:56.760 required to to stay in. Becky, what is it that 0:13:56.760 --> 0:14:01.680 members can do to ensure a smooth process for themselves? 0:14:01.679 --> 0:14:04.740 And I'm thinking, um, you know, as as Kate had said, 0:14:04.740 --> 0:14:08.010 it can be a stressful process for them. What what 0:14:08.010 --> 0:14:09.600 do they need to be able to do? 0:14:09.690 --> 0:14:14.100 Um, first and foremost, I always tell people, don't panic. Um, 0:14:14.100 --> 0:14:17.829 you know, receiving a complaint is stressful, but, you know, 0:14:17.830 --> 0:14:22.390 you need to just, um, take a breath before you respond. Um, 0:14:22.390 --> 0:14:27.040 you should be responsive. So that includes, um, being careful 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:32.620 to comply with time frames in which responses might be requested. Um, 0:14:32.620 --> 0:14:35.050 and if you need more time, just ask and tell 0:14:35.050 --> 0:14:38.979 us why. And we're usually pretty flexible about that. Um, 0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:42.200 members need to be very clear in their response and 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:46.880 provide all relevant evidence. So if, um, if certain questions 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:50.630 have been asked or they've been, um, required to provide 0:14:50.630 --> 0:14:55.370 particular documents or information, you should pay attention to that. Um, 0:14:55.370 --> 0:14:58.850 and and seek to understand the process. So we're always 0:14:58.850 --> 0:15:04.140 happy to explain it. And there's also other avenues of support. So, um, 0:15:04.140 --> 0:15:08.280 there's the CA Advisory Group, um, for New Zealand members. 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:15.510 There's um, the member care function. Um, and there's also, um, 0:15:16.290 --> 0:15:20.010 recourse to technical advice if you need it, um, available 0:15:20.010 --> 0:15:23.970 through CA ANZ. Um, in some cases, it's very appropriate for 0:15:23.970 --> 0:15:28.410 members to seek legal advice. Um, there's a free hour 0:15:28.410 --> 0:15:32.730 of legal advice through the CA Advisory Group. Um, they 0:15:32.730 --> 0:15:38.250 should certainly consider talking to their professional indemnity insurers. Um, 0:15:38.250 --> 0:15:42.450 if they have insurance. Um, but just coming back to 0:15:42.450 --> 0:15:47.280 the response, the key thing is to demonstrate insight. So 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:50.520 I always tell people if you don't agree with the complaint, 0:15:50.520 --> 0:15:55.030 it's appropriate to defend things robustly. But that needs to 0:15:55.030 --> 0:16:00.820 be done courteously, professionally, and, you know, being careful about 0:16:00.820 --> 0:16:05.020 the tone that you take in responding and remembering that 0:16:05.020 --> 0:16:08.470 your audience, um, at first instance is going to be 0:16:08.470 --> 0:16:11.890 your peers on the PCC and also the lay members 0:16:11.890 --> 0:16:15.130 that sit on that. But, um, at worst, it could 0:16:15.130 --> 0:16:18.710 go right the way through the process. So tone is 0:16:18.710 --> 0:16:22.490 very important. Um, if you do think that, um, you 0:16:22.490 --> 0:16:25.250 could have done something better, putting your hand up and 0:16:25.250 --> 0:16:29.780 saying that, um, goes a very long way. Ultimately, um, 0:16:29.780 --> 0:16:33.500 you know, the disciplinary bodies want to make sure that 0:16:33.500 --> 0:16:37.190 members are complying with the ethics. And a significant part 0:16:37.190 --> 0:16:42.090 of that is, um, having insight about, you know, where 0:16:42.090 --> 0:16:44.040 you could have done a bit more. 0:16:44.790 --> 0:16:50.850 Um, self-reflection. Yeah. Always useful. Yeah, yeah. Say you're sorry. 0:16:50.850 --> 0:16:51.810 Go ahead. Becky. 0:16:52.050 --> 0:16:55.470 I was just going to say that, um, sometimes it's hard 0:16:55.470 --> 0:16:58.980 to apologize, and often that's actually all that a client, 0:16:59.100 --> 0:17:01.500 if it's a client or a, you know, member of 0:17:01.500 --> 0:17:04.919 the public that's complained, often they actually just want a 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:06.180 simple apology. 0:17:07.290 --> 0:17:09.420 Kate is there anything like you'd like to add on that. 0:17:09.570 --> 0:17:12.899 No I think that covers it all. Um, just take it 0:17:12.900 --> 0:17:17.070 seriously uh, and think through sort of all the angles. 0:17:17.190 --> 0:17:20.070 Look, we're almost out of time. Um, I did just 0:17:20.070 --> 0:17:23.909 want to perhaps, um, you know, wrap up with saying, 0:17:24.060 --> 0:17:28.859 what is it that might then be, um, an outcome, um, 0:17:28.869 --> 0:17:33.310 a possible outcome if someone is actually proven to have 0:17:33.310 --> 0:17:36.609 breached the bylaws or the NZICA Rules of the Code of Ethics. Kate. 0:17:36.609 --> 0:17:39.790 What what is it that a member may expect to happen? 0:17:39.850 --> 0:17:42.970 So for the most serious matters, referral to the Disciplinary 0:17:42.970 --> 0:17:45.490 Tribunal and a range of sanctions can be imposed by 0:17:45.490 --> 0:17:49.300 the tribunal. So that does include termination or suspension of membership. 0:17:49.510 --> 0:17:54.060 Might include fines, um, a censure, a requirement that you 0:17:54.060 --> 0:17:59.700 have quality review or additional training. Um, and um, at 0:17:59.700 --> 0:18:04.350 the professional conduct committee, um members can agree a um 0:18:04.530 --> 0:18:08.100 some the imposition of disciplinary sanctions with um, the committee 0:18:08.100 --> 0:18:12.210 and the committee can impose similar sanctions by agreement. So 0:18:12.210 --> 0:18:15.000 a censure, a fine, also a quality review. And the 0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:19.260 committee can also um for um at at the lower end, 0:18:19.260 --> 0:18:22.110 impose a caution or a professional reminder or, or in 0:18:22.109 --> 0:18:25.020 appropriate complaints, just decide to take no further action. 0:18:25.050 --> 0:18:29.520 Mhm mhm. And look the members of CA ANZ will hopefully remember 0:18:29.520 --> 0:18:32.699 at the end of last year we did hold a 0:18:32.700 --> 0:18:38.340 member vote to strengthen and further, um, amplify and reform 0:18:38.340 --> 0:18:42.040 and bring together and align our By-Laws and the NZICA rules. 0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:45.100 And that was a successful vote, which the fines that 0:18:45.100 --> 0:18:47.320 prompted me to think that we did actually increase the 0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:50.140 the amount of fines that could be, um, handed out 0:18:50.140 --> 0:18:54.370 to firms. Um, in, in response to an, a, a 0:18:54.369 --> 0:18:57.280 firm event that was found to be proven. Look, I 0:18:57.280 --> 0:18:59.980 will put a link to the information that we have 0:18:59.980 --> 0:19:01.930 on our website on how to make a complaint. So 0:19:01.930 --> 0:19:03.580 if anyone wants to go and find out more about 0:19:03.580 --> 0:19:06.340 the process, they can. Good point out there Becky. In 0:19:06.340 --> 0:19:09.940 regards to the CA Advisory Group, we've done previous podcast 0:19:09.940 --> 0:19:11.560 episodes on that, so I'll whack a link to that 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:13.899 in the show notes, as well as the links on 0:19:13.900 --> 0:19:16.929 where you can find that on the website, and anything 0:19:16.930 --> 0:19:18.490 else that Kate and Becky think that I should whack 0:19:18.490 --> 0:19:19.750 in the show notes. I'll put a link to that 0:19:19.750 --> 0:19:22.810 as well, including a link to the Decision Register on 0:19:22.810 --> 0:19:25.270 our website and Acuity magazine, which is where you can 0:19:25.270 --> 0:19:30.530 actually find out about our recent conduct decisions. Before we go, 0:19:30.530 --> 0:19:33.560 final thought from you, Becky. And then final thought from you, Kate. Becky, 0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:34.340 you go first. 0:19:34.910 --> 0:19:38.780 I would just say it's along the don't panic lines. Um, 0:19:38.780 --> 0:19:41.929 you know, it can be very scary. And hearing, um, 0:19:41.930 --> 0:19:46.790 things like the outcomes, termination and suspension and fines and 0:19:46.790 --> 0:19:51.739 all of that, um, can sound daunting. The reality is that, um, 0:19:51.740 --> 0:19:56.280 you know, we get, um, you know, it's relatively few 0:19:56.280 --> 0:20:02.729 members annually who get those, um, really serious outcomes. And, um, 0:20:02.730 --> 0:20:06.330 just because a complaint is going to, um, is sent 0:20:06.330 --> 0:20:08.729 to you doesn't necessarily mean there's going to be an 0:20:08.730 --> 0:20:14.280 adverse decision. So take it seriously, but put yourself in 0:20:14.280 --> 0:20:17.760 the best foot forward, um, as far as responding to 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:22.270 it and, um, you know, problem shared is a problem halved. 0:20:23.109 --> 0:20:25.149 And I would just add, uh, have a read of 0:20:25.150 --> 0:20:27.669 some of the disciplinary decisions. There are some great tips 0:20:27.670 --> 0:20:31.959 there of things to think about your own practice. And um, and, 0:20:31.960 --> 0:20:34.810 you know, the situations members have got themselves into, there's 0:20:34.810 --> 0:20:37.870 a lot to be learnt from looking at those decisions. So, um, 0:20:37.869 --> 0:20:39.159 have a look at the links. 0:20:39.310 --> 0:20:41.679 That's a really, really good idea. That is all we 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:43.699 have time for. If you would like to get in 0:20:43.700 --> 0:20:49.280 touch with the podcast email podcast@charteredaccountantsanz.com. And of course follow 0:20:49.280 --> 0:20:53.690 the pod in your favourite podcast app. Let's start a conversation. 0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:56.060 Thank you Becky and Kate for being my experts on 0:20:56.060 --> 0:20:57.740 Small Firm, Big Impact. 0:20:57.770 --> 0:20:58.490 Thank you. 0:20:58.520 --> 0:20:59.450 Thanks a lot. 0:20:59.690 --> 0:21:00.260 Bye bye.