Gillian Bowen, Host: Hello, my name is Gillian Bowen. This is Small Firm,
Gillian Bowen, Host: Big Impact.
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: Complaints have to be made in writing and submitted with
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: a signed copy of our form. Uh, generally, we need evidence, um,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: to be provided in support of the complaint.
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: For Australian and rest of the world members outside of New Zealand. Um,
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: the By Laws is the critical starting point in relation
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: to their conduct. And for New Zealand based members, it's
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: the NZICA rules, and the By-Laws and the rules incorporate
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: the Code of Ethics and the other professional and technical standards.
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: You should be responsive. So that includes um, being careful
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: to comply with time frames in which responses might be requested. Um,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: and if you need more time, just ask and tell
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: us why. We're usually pretty flexible about that.
Gillian Bowen, Host: It's the podcast giving chartered accountants the up to date
Gillian Bowen, Host: information they need to do their jobs. Each episode I
Gillian Bowen, Host: share resources, tools, and expert advice provided by Chartered Accountants
Gillian Bowen, Host: Australia and New Zealand and a range of people across
Gillian Bowen, Host: our profession. So get following the pod in your favourite
Gillian Bowen, Host: podcast app. Let's start a conversation. Today we have Kate Dixon,
Gillian Bowen, Host: Australian Conduct Leader, and Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader.
Gillian Bowen, Host: The topic the complaints process for members of Chartered Accountants
Gillian Bowen, Host: Australia and New Zealand. Kate and Rebecca. Welcome to Small Firm,
Gillian Bowen, Host: Big Impact.
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: Morning, Gill.
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: Hi, Gill. Great to be here. Thank you.
Gillian Bowen, Host: Okay, uh, I want to take a minute first to
Gillian Bowen, Host: get to know our experts, because that is the best
Gillian Bowen, Host: way to set this up so people know who we're
Gillian Bowen, Host: talking to and why we're talking to you. Kate, what
Gillian Bowen, Host: do you do at CA ANZ?
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: Well, as conduct leader, I'm responsible for all the complaint,
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: investigations and disciplinary proceedings in relation to members and former
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: members in Australia and the rest of the world outside
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: of New Zealand. So this includes, um, also includes supporting
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: our disciplinary panels to carry out their roles in relation
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: to complaints and disciplinary proceedings.
Gillian Bowen, Host: Okay. All right. Becky, how about you.
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: So likewise, I'm responsible for the disciplinary function in New Zealand. Um,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: my team is a small multidisciplinary team. We're made up
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: of lawyers, a chartered accountant, uh, and another investigator and
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: two administrators. Um, as with the Australian counterparts, we're responsible
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: for investigating complaints and then managing disciplinary proceedings before the
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: Disciplinary Tribunal and Appeals Council and supporting those bodies. Um,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: we investigate complaints about current and former members and also
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: certain non-members who are licensed or recognised by NZICA in
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: accordance with statute or the NZICA rules. So that includes,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: for example, licensed insolvency practitioners.
Gillian Bowen, Host: Mhm. Mhm. Okay. So a big job for you both.
Gillian Bowen, Host: An important job for you both. Before we dive into
Gillian Bowen, Host: the complaints and conducts process I think it's worth explaining
Gillian Bowen, Host: uh the names of the disciplinary bodies. You've touched on
Gillian Bowen, Host: a couple there but um the names of them and
Gillian Bowen, Host: how they handle complaints and investigations at CA ANZ and
Gillian Bowen, Host: perhaps a bit of a brief rundown about what they do. Um, Kate,
Gillian Bowen, Host: why don't you start? What's the structure look like?
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: So we have four main bodies. Uh, the first one
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: is the Professional Conduct Committee, and that's responsible for, uh,
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: receiving and initiating complaints, uh, and then investigating them. And
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: the committee can decide not to investigate on a complaint. Uh,
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: or if it is investigated, it will decide on the
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: complaint outcome. And that can include referring the matter to
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: the Disciplinary Tribunal. Um, so then we moved to the
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: Disciplinary Tribunal, which hears and determines complaints made to it
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: by the Professional Conduct Committee. And we also have an
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: Appeals Council which hears and determines any appeals of decisions
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: of the Disciplinary Tribunal. And then lastly, we also have
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: the Professional Conduct Oversight Committee, and that has oversight responsibility
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: for the integrity, timeliness and effectiveness of the disciplinary system
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: as a whole.
Gillian Bowen, Host: Mhm. So a lot going on there. And Becky what
Gillian Bowen, Host: about then in New Zealand for our members who are
Gillian Bowen, Host: based there?
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: Sure. So, similarly, we have three disciplinary bodies being the
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: Professional Conduct Committee, Disciplinary Tribunal and Appeals Council. Um, and
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: they all have the same remit as the three bodies
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: in Australia. Um, but in New Zealand, these are statutory
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: bodies prescribed by the New Zealand Institute of Chartered Accountants Act.
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: Um our process is overseen by the NZICA Regulatory Board.
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: That board has a slightly different remit, slightly broader remit
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: than the Professional Conduct Oversight Committee, as it's NZICA's Board, um,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: responsible for its statutory functions. Um, but its core responsibility
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: is to oversee the regulation discipline of members in New Zealand.
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: But it also has some additional responsibilities, for example, prescribing
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: the Code of ethics and other standards. Um, the other
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: core role in the complaints process, and this applies both
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: to New Zealand and Australia, is the reviewer of complaints.
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: So that sort of separate um from the three main bodies. Um,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: but either the member or the complainant involved in the
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: complaint can seek a review of certain decisions of the
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: Professional Conduct Committee by the reviewer of complaints. Uh, reviewers
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: are independent lawyers and they can look at, um, sort
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: of the process followed by the committee and the reasonableness
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: of its decisions and make recommendations to the committee. So
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: it's it's it's not quite a full appeal process. Um,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: but it's, um, a bit of a recourse outside of the, um,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: Professional Conduct Committee's decision making process to, um, look at
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: their decisions.
Gillian Bowen, Host: I can imagine if members are listening along right now,
Gillian Bowen, Host: all of that might sound quite complex and, um, indeed, um,
Gillian Bowen, Host: quite intense to get your head around. So maybe we
Gillian Bowen, Host: take a step back. Um, Becky, I'm thinking if I
Gillian Bowen, Host: was a member of the public, um, let's look at
Gillian Bowen, Host: it from that side first. If I was a member
Gillian Bowen, Host: of the public and I wanted to make a complaint
Gillian Bowen, Host: about a chartered accountant, how would I do that?
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: Sure. So, um, it's very easy. Uh, first thing to do, uh,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: jump on our website and have a bit of a
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: read up about the complaints process in the first instance. Um,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: on the website, we've got a complaint form that they'll
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: need to download. Uh, complaints have to be made in
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: writing and submitted with a signed copy of our form. Uh, generally,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: we need evidence, um, to be provided in support of
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: the complaint. Then that could cover a whole range of things.
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: It's going to depend on the nature of the issues
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: and the relationship between the parties. But, um, for example,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: it might be things like the engagement letter. Um, copies
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: of relevant correspondence or contracts, um, financial statements or reports
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: or trust deeds or whatever. So relevant evidence um supported, supporting
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: a signed complaint form and that can be either emailed
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: or posted to us. And we then sort of kick
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: off the review of that process and look at whether
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: it's within our jurisdiction and, and then whether we're going
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: to investigate it.
Gillian Bowen, Host: So then Kate on that what happens next. So the
Gillian Bowen, Host: complaint comes in to CA ANZ and then what do you
Gillian Bowen, Host: guys do?
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: So, um, once we've gathered, gathered, um, the evidence from
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: the complainant in support of the complaint, um, if it's
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: going to be investigated, we will write to the member
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: and seek their response to the complaint. And we then
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: have an exchange of correspondence with the member and the
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: complainant until enough information about the the issues in the
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: complaint is gathered. And at that stage, it will all
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: be considered by the Professional Conduct Committee. And and the
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: committee will either make a decision in relation to the
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: complaint or initiate further investigations itself.
Gillian Bowen, Host: So then imagine um, I guess then let's, let's I
Gillian Bowen, Host: guess we're, we're going to assume then that it is
Gillian Bowen, Host: going to be pursued by the Professional Conduct Committee or
Gillian Bowen, Host: what we, we call the PCC, save us having to
Gillian Bowen, Host: say it every single time. Um, we live in a
Gillian Bowen, Host: world of acronyms, don't we, Becky? What happens after that?
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: So at first instance, once we've done our investigation, um,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: the complaint is considered by the committee on the papers. Um,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: after that, in some cases, the committee may, um, hold
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: something called a case conference. And that's an in person
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: investigative meeting with the parties, um, usually members are required
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: to attend sometimes um, and complainants may be invited to attend. Uh,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: and they're really looking at so they're wanting to discuss
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: the complaint, um, with them and determining whether or not
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: it's serious enough to be referred to the disciplinary tribunal. Um,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: sometimes either before that or after that process, the committee
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: may also appoint an external investigator or expert to assist with, um,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: particular sort of line of inquiries. So, um, that's often
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: if there's sort of like a very technical element to it,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: say an assurance complaint, um, or maybe something that has
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: a forensic component. Um, or they may order a practice review. Uh,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: if a complaint is serious, it will be referred to
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: the disciplinary tribunal for hearing. Um, the tribunal process is
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: certainly a more formal legal proceeding. Um, uh, the PCC
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: bears the onus of proof as the prosecutor and formal
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: charges and evidence are presented. Um members are often legally represented,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: and it's usually in their best interests to be. Um,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: there's a presumption at those hearings, um, both before the
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: Disciplinary Tribunal and the Appeals Council. Um, that the matter
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: will be heard in public. So we may have the
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: media attending or members of the public. Um, and also,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: there's a presumption that decisions are published with the member's
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: name and location, although, of course, members can make submissions
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: against this, um, you know, a separate name suppression application
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: if there's good reasons. Um, and then if either the
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: member or the PCC is unhappy with the decision of
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: the Disciplinary Tribunal, they can lodge an appeal to the
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: Appeals Council. Um, appeals can cover a range of things,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: so it might be the substantive decision about the liability.
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: So whether or not the case has been proved, um,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: or it could be decisions around the sanctions, um, or
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: the costs orders or um, also publication or declining suppression
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: or whatever. So there's a range of things that can
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: be appealed. And it might not be all parts of
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: the tribunal's decision. Um, and in New Zealand, um after
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: the and this is different from Australia, um, but it's
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: because of the sort of statutory nature of our process. Um,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: if a party is ultimately unhappy with the Appeals Council's decision,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: there's ultimate recourse to the courts via judicial review.
Gillian Bowen, Host: Mhm. Mhm.
Gillian Bowen, Host: Kate. It sounds like a very, um, layered, um and
Gillian Bowen, Host: thorough process. How long does that usually take.
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: So it really does depend on the complexity of the
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: matter and also how responsive um, members and complainants are.
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: But we typically say um, it usually takes between about
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: four and nine months for complaint investigations, uh, to be completed,
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: but of course it would be a longer time period,
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: you know, if the matter is referred to the Disciplinary Tribunal,
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: because that's a whole that's a new process and that,
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: you know, that's going to take a few months to
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: complete as well. Um, but of course, um, some complex
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: complaints will take, will take a long time to complete,
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: but we always aim to do them as fast to,
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: you know, to get through them as fast as possible
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: because we understand it's such a stressful process.
Gillian Bowen, Host: Mhm. Mhm. That's right. Yes that's right. Everyone's looking for
Gillian Bowen, Host: the outcome to be delivered as quickly as humanly possible
Gillian Bowen, Host: so to speak. And what is it that you are
Gillian Bowen, Host: measuring members against in all of this. How do how
Gillian Bowen, Host: do you know what it is as the benchmark that
Gillian Bowen, Host: that members should be behaving against?
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: So for Australian and rest of the world members outside
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: of New Zealand, um, the by laws is the critical
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: starting point in relation to their conduct. And for New
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: Zealand based members, it's the NZICA rules, and the By-Laws
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: and the Rules incorporate the the Code of Ethics and
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: the other professional and technical standards. And so that's the
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: starting point. Um, and that's, that's that, that they're the
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: documents that sort of set the standards by which members
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: conduct is examined.
Gillian Bowen, Host: And for example, Kate, then if someone does make a complaint,
Gillian Bowen, Host: you often let people know that actually if it doesn't
Gillian Bowen, Host: fit in with our By-Laws, you can't investigate.
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: Yeah that's right. And sometimes there's other more appropriate bodies
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: that might actually have jurisdiction for a particular type of conduct.
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: But it has to be, um, a the conduct that
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: we investigate needs to be something that's covered by the
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: bylaws and rules and the various codes and regulations, etc..
Gillian Bowen, Host: So as a professional membership body, we've got our own
Gillian Bowen, Host: remit and that is the lane that we, um, are
Gillian Bowen, Host: required to to stay in. Becky, what is it that
Gillian Bowen, Host: members can do to ensure a smooth process for themselves?
Gillian Bowen, Host: And I'm thinking, um, you know, as as Kate had said,
Gillian Bowen, Host: it can be a stressful process for them. What what
Gillian Bowen, Host: do they need to be able to do?
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: Um, first and foremost, I always tell people, don't panic. Um,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: you know, receiving a complaint is stressful, but, you know,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: you need to just, um, take a breath before you respond. Um,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: you should be responsive. So that includes, um, being careful
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: to comply with time frames in which responses might be requested. Um,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: and if you need more time, just ask and tell
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: us why. And we're usually pretty flexible about that. Um,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: members need to be very clear in their response and
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: provide all relevant evidence. So if, um, if certain questions
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: have been asked or they've been, um, required to provide
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: particular documents or information, you should pay attention to that. Um,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: and and seek to understand the process. So we're always
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: happy to explain it. And there's also other avenues of support. So, um,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: there's the CA Advisory Group, um, for New Zealand members.
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: There's um, the member care function. Um, and there's also, um,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: recourse to technical advice if you need it, um, available
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: through CA ANZ. Um, in some cases, it's very appropriate for
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: members to seek legal advice. Um, there's a free hour
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: of legal advice through the CA Advisory Group. Um, they
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: should certainly consider talking to their professional indemnity insurers. Um,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: if they have insurance. Um, but just coming back to
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: the response, the key thing is to demonstrate insight. So
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: I always tell people if you don't agree with the complaint,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: it's appropriate to defend things robustly. But that needs to
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: be done courteously, professionally, and, you know, being careful about
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: the tone that you take in responding and remembering that
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: your audience, um, at first instance is going to be
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: your peers on the PCC and also the lay members
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: that sit on that. But, um, at worst, it could
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: go right the way through the process. So tone is
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: very important. Um, if you do think that, um, you
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: could have done something better, putting your hand up and
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: saying that, um, goes a very long way. Ultimately, um,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: you know, the disciplinary bodies want to make sure that
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: members are complying with the ethics. And a significant part
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: of that is, um, having insight about, you know, where
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: you could have done a bit more.
Gillian Bowen, Host: Um, self-reflection. Yeah. Always useful. Yeah, yeah. Say you're sorry.
Gillian Bowen, Host: Go ahead. Becky.
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: I was just going to say that, um, sometimes it's hard
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: to apologize, and often that's actually all that a client,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: if it's a client or a, you know, member of
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: the public that's complained, often they actually just want a
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: simple apology.
Gillian Bowen, Host: Kate is there anything like you'd like to add on that.
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: No I think that covers it all. Um, just take it
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: seriously uh, and think through sort of all the angles.
Gillian Bowen, Host: Look, we're almost out of time. Um, I did just
Gillian Bowen, Host: want to perhaps, um, you know, wrap up with saying,
Gillian Bowen, Host: what is it that might then be, um, an outcome, um,
Gillian Bowen, Host: a possible outcome if someone is actually proven to have
Gillian Bowen, Host: breached the bylaws or the NZICA Rules of the Code of Ethics. Kate.
Gillian Bowen, Host: What what is it that a member may expect to happen?
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: So for the most serious matters, referral to the Disciplinary
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: Tribunal and a range of sanctions can be imposed by
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: the tribunal. So that does include termination or suspension of membership.
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: Might include fines, um, a censure, a requirement that you
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: have quality review or additional training. Um, and um, at
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: the professional conduct committee, um members can agree a um
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: some the imposition of disciplinary sanctions with um, the committee
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: and the committee can impose similar sanctions by agreement. So
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: a censure, a fine, also a quality review. And the
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: committee can also um for um at at the lower end,
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: impose a caution or a professional reminder or, or in
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: appropriate complaints, just decide to take no further action.
Gillian Bowen, Host: Mhm mhm. And look the members of CA ANZ will hopefully remember
Gillian Bowen, Host: at the end of last year we did hold a
Gillian Bowen, Host: member vote to strengthen and further, um, amplify and reform
Gillian Bowen, Host: and bring together and align our By-Laws and the NZICA rules.
Gillian Bowen, Host: And that was a successful vote, which the fines that
Gillian Bowen, Host: prompted me to think that we did actually increase the
Gillian Bowen, Host: the amount of fines that could be, um, handed out
Gillian Bowen, Host: to firms. Um, in, in response to an, a, a
Gillian Bowen, Host: firm event that was found to be proven. Look, I
Gillian Bowen, Host: will put a link to the information that we have
Gillian Bowen, Host: on our website on how to make a complaint. So
Gillian Bowen, Host: if anyone wants to go and find out more about
Gillian Bowen, Host: the process, they can. Good point out there Becky. In
Gillian Bowen, Host: regards to the CA Advisory Group, we've done previous podcast
Gillian Bowen, Host: episodes on that, so I'll whack a link to that
Gillian Bowen, Host: in the show notes, as well as the links on
Gillian Bowen, Host: where you can find that on the website, and anything
Gillian Bowen, Host: else that Kate and Becky think that I should whack
Gillian Bowen, Host: in the show notes. I'll put a link to that
Gillian Bowen, Host: as well, including a link to the Decision Register on
Gillian Bowen, Host: our website and Acuity magazine, which is where you can
Gillian Bowen, Host: actually find out about our recent conduct decisions. Before we go,
Gillian Bowen, Host: final thought from you, Becky. And then final thought from you, Kate. Becky,
Gillian Bowen, Host: you go first.
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: I would just say it's along the don't panic lines. Um,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: you know, it can be very scary. And hearing, um,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: things like the outcomes, termination and suspension and fines and
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: all of that, um, can sound daunting. The reality is that, um,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: you know, we get, um, you know, it's relatively few
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: members annually who get those, um, really serious outcomes. And, um,
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: just because a complaint is going to, um, is sent
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: to you doesn't necessarily mean there's going to be an
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: adverse decision. So take it seriously, but put yourself in
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: the best foot forward, um, as far as responding to
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: it and, um, you know, problem shared is a problem halved.
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: And I would just add, uh, have a read of
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: some of the disciplinary decisions. There are some great tips
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: there of things to think about your own practice. And um, and,
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: you know, the situations members have got themselves into, there's
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: a lot to be learnt from looking at those decisions. So, um,
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: have a look at the links.
Gillian Bowen, Host: That's a really, really good idea. That is all we
Gillian Bowen, Host: have time for. If you would like to get in
Gillian Bowen, Host: touch with the podcast email podcast@charteredaccountantsanz.com. And of course follow
Gillian Bowen, Host: the pod in your favourite podcast app. Let's start a conversation.
Gillian Bowen, Host: Thank you Becky and Kate for being my experts on
Gillian Bowen, Host: Small Firm, Big Impact.
Kate Dixon, Australia Conduct Leader: Thank you.
Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader: Thanks a lot.
Gillian Bowen, Host: Bye bye.