WEBVTT - The future of trust 0:00:08.440 --> 0:00:11.830 Hello, my name is Gillian Bowen, the Australian manager of 0:00:11.830 --> 0:00:16.239 Public Affairs at Chartered Accountants ANZ. This is Small Firm, 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:17.260 Big Impact. 0:00:21.950 --> 0:00:24.739 It is based on a huge amount of trust in 0:00:24.739 --> 0:00:26.930 each other, so it's actually a two way relationship. Actually, 0:00:26.930 --> 0:00:29.389 we need to think about it's not just about clients 0:00:29.390 --> 0:00:33.500 trusting us as a professional, it's actually us trusting the 0:00:33.500 --> 0:00:36.650 client as well. If either one of the parties breaches 0:00:36.650 --> 0:00:39.979 that trust or breaks that trust, it takes a long 0:00:39.979 --> 0:00:41.659 time to be able to rebuild it. 0:00:42.050 --> 0:00:45.680 Companies that are trusted have higher revenues, higher profitability, higher 0:00:45.680 --> 0:00:48.709 shareholder returns, and lower employee turnover. 0:00:48.710 --> 0:00:52.940 Because trust increases commitment to an organization, it's actually much 0:00:52.940 --> 0:00:54.600 easier to be honest and ethical. 0:00:54.620 --> 0:00:57.980 All professions are built on trust, and for chartered accountants, 0:00:57.980 --> 0:01:00.320 it really is the cornerstone of our profession. 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:11.450 It's the podcast giving you and your clients the up 0:01:11.450 --> 0:01:14.839 to date information you need to do your jobs. Each episode, 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:19.250 I share resources, tools, and expert advice provided by CA ANZ 0:01:19.250 --> 0:01:22.340 and a range of people across our profession. So make 0:01:22.340 --> 0:01:25.310 sure you're following the pod in your favourite pod app. 0:01:25.310 --> 0:01:27.740 And if you've got an idea for the show, email 0:01:27.740 --> 0:01:40.180 podcast@charteredaccountantsanz.com Today we have Dr. Lisa Marriott. She's a Professor 0:01:40.180 --> 0:01:42.490 at the School of Accounting and Commercial Law of Victoria 0:01:42.520 --> 0:01:46.240 University of Wellington, and an extraordinary professor at the University 0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:49.690 of Pretoria in South Africa. She's been working in academia 0:01:49.690 --> 0:01:52.240 for the past 15 years, and prior to that was 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:55.720 a financial controller and accountant in the private sector. She's 0:01:55.720 --> 0:01:59.620 a published author and helped with the CA ANZ thought leadership article, 0:01:59.620 --> 0:02:04.000 The Future of Trust: New technology meets old fashioned Values. 0:02:04.030 --> 0:02:08.260 We also have with us another author of that paper, 0:02:08.330 --> 0:02:14.019 CA ANZ General Manager for International Development Geraldine Magarey, FCA. 0:02:14.139 --> 0:02:17.340 At the time, she was our thought leadership and research leader. 0:02:17.350 --> 0:02:20.860 Geraldine had a background in audit and regulation prior to 0:02:20.860 --> 0:02:24.549 joining CA ANZ. I'm very excited to have both of you 0:02:24.550 --> 0:02:27.910 on this episode. Welcome to Small Firm, Big Impact. 0:02:28.180 --> 0:02:32.320 Thanks, Gillian. I'm delighted to be here and really looking 0:02:32.320 --> 0:02:33.710 forward to our conversation. 0:02:33.730 --> 0:02:36.549 Yeah. Thanks, Gill. Great to join you and Lisa today. 0:02:37.780 --> 0:02:39.610 If you're listening to this episode on the day it's dropped, 0:02:39.610 --> 0:02:42.370 it won't surprise you - it's Global Ethics Day. It's why 0:02:42.370 --> 0:02:47.140 we're diving into the topic of trust, why it's important for professionals, 0:02:47.139 --> 0:02:50.919 for chartered accountants. Big question right off the top, Lisa. 0:02:50.919 --> 0:02:52.660 What is trust? 0:02:54.040 --> 0:02:58.270 And great place to start. So at its simplest, trust 0:02:58.270 --> 0:03:03.820 is when we rely on another party to behave in 0:03:03.820 --> 0:03:07.570 a certain way. So in any relationship there's a couple 0:03:07.570 --> 0:03:11.320 of things going on. There's dependence on the other party 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:13.780 to do what they're going to do, what they will, 0:03:14.710 --> 0:03:17.620 what you've agreed that they will do. But there's also 0:03:17.620 --> 0:03:22.240 uncertainty about how that other party will behave. And then, 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:25.390 of course, trust gets broken when that other party doesn't 0:03:25.389 --> 0:03:30.910 behave as expected in that interdependent relationship. And of course, 0:03:30.910 --> 0:03:34.329 that holds for all of our relationships, our personal relationships 0:03:34.330 --> 0:03:36.250 and our professional relationships. 0:03:37.060 --> 0:03:42.010 Geraldine, why take the time to understand what trust means? 0:03:42.070 --> 0:03:43.810 I mean, I guess in the sense of why talk 0:03:43.810 --> 0:03:45.910 about this on a day like Global Ethics Day? 0:03:46.940 --> 0:03:50.810 Look, it's super important, Gill. As we know, all professions 0:03:50.810 --> 0:03:53.720 are built on trust. And for chartered accountants, it really 0:03:53.720 --> 0:03:57.560 is the cornerstone of our profession. But more importantly, just 0:03:57.560 --> 0:03:59.960 like to add from our research, we actually found there 0:03:59.960 --> 0:04:04.100 is a trust gap between what the perceived factors for 0:04:04.100 --> 0:04:07.430 improving trust. So it's actually really important to understand and 0:04:07.430 --> 0:04:08.960 not just to think about it just being a sort 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:11.660 of a given. So it's really a really important thing 0:04:11.660 --> 0:04:13.760 to to get right. If we want to have good 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:18.679 relationships with our clients, with our community and with our employees. 0:04:19.070 --> 0:04:21.650 What do you mean by gap? Can you explain that 0:04:21.650 --> 0:04:23.300 to me? What what is the gap? 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:28.130 Yeah. In the research, we actually found that the actual 0:04:28.130 --> 0:04:32.300 perceived factors for improving trust, what we might have thought 0:04:32.300 --> 0:04:35.810 they were, they're actually different to what people perceive trust 0:04:35.810 --> 0:04:37.669 as being from a client perspective. So I'll give you 0:04:37.670 --> 0:04:40.700 an example. So one of them was around data security. 0:04:40.700 --> 0:04:45.110 So as a um, you know, if we're working with 0:04:45.110 --> 0:04:47.930 our clients, we might not think of data security being 0:04:47.930 --> 0:04:51.950 super important to our clients. It is important. But is 0:04:51.950 --> 0:04:54.740 it the top factor when it comes to building that 0:04:54.740 --> 0:04:58.279 trust with our client? So when we actually were doing 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:03.200 the survey, 10% of our members said data security was 0:05:03.470 --> 0:05:05.900 a key trust factor. But when we actually asked the 0:05:05.900 --> 0:05:08.000 other side the clients, it was actually one of the 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:11.510 very top trust factors. So there was that gap between 0:05:11.630 --> 0:05:14.599 what we perceived as a trust factor and as a top, 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:17.120 top three, and what the client was saying was a 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:18.530 trust factor in their top three. 0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:19.270 Mm. 0:05:19.700 --> 0:05:23.060 Lisa, how do you get that understanding? How can you 0:05:23.060 --> 0:05:25.789 make sure that you're drilling down into what it is 0:05:25.790 --> 0:05:29.030 that makes the relationship between you as a professional and 0:05:29.029 --> 0:05:30.710 your client trustworthy? 0:05:31.770 --> 0:05:33.780 That's a really good question. 0:05:33.779 --> 0:05:38.219 And I'm going to just follow on from what Geraldine 0:05:38.220 --> 0:05:42.909 was saying. And with the research that we looked at, um, 0:05:43.110 --> 0:05:47.520 the trust has changed. And of course, everything is evolving. 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:51.570 But what we found in that research is that the fundamentals, 0:05:51.570 --> 0:05:57.570 the basics are actually pretty solid. We we want to 0:05:57.570 --> 0:06:02.610 engage with those who are ethical and those who are honest. 0:06:02.610 --> 0:06:06.360 And the survey respondents were really clear on this, and 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:09.750 it was dishonesty and unethical behavior that was likely to 0:06:09.750 --> 0:06:12.630 sort of decrease trust across the board. And that didn't 0:06:12.630 --> 0:06:16.289 really matter whether you were a professional or whether you're 0:06:16.290 --> 0:06:18.960 in some other industry or public sector or media or 0:06:18.960 --> 0:06:23.460 whatever it was, behaving unethically and being dishonest were those 0:06:23.460 --> 0:06:26.880 factors that really mattered most to people. 0:06:27.690 --> 0:06:30.360 Geraldine, do you think the participants in in the survey 0:06:30.360 --> 0:06:36.120 and I guess professionals in general understand what behaving ethically means 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:38.849 and what behaving with integrity means? 0:06:39.740 --> 0:06:42.489 I do but think we do need to remind ourselves, 0:06:42.500 --> 0:06:44.840 you know, every now and then, about what it truly 0:06:44.839 --> 0:06:48.380 does mean. Think sometimes we can because all of us 0:06:48.380 --> 0:06:50.810 come to our roles. All chartered accounts come to this, 0:06:50.810 --> 0:06:54.740 you know, with that mindset of acting with integrity, acting 0:06:54.740 --> 0:06:59.870 with honesty, being ethical. But as a regulator, I've seen sometimes, 0:06:59.870 --> 0:07:03.830 you know, when we're busy, you're stressed, um, or, you know, 0:07:03.830 --> 0:07:06.050 sometimes you might take a shortcut. We don't mean to 0:07:06.050 --> 0:07:08.390 go down that path. And so think just having that 0:07:08.390 --> 0:07:11.540 reminder of, of of what it truly does mean to 0:07:11.540 --> 0:07:15.680 be ethical, to act with integrity and to be honest, 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:18.380 which are the real values that help build trust. It 0:07:18.380 --> 0:07:20.600 is really important for us to just to revisit and 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:24.200 to check in regularly around those, those factors. 0:07:24.530 --> 0:07:27.410 Um, there is a focus on the profession's ethics and 0:07:27.410 --> 0:07:29.960 integrity right now, where the behaviours of a few can 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:32.510 cast a long shadow. And this isn't the first time, 0:07:32.510 --> 0:07:35.930 and it won't be the last time. And to take 0:07:35.930 --> 0:07:38.210 the name of the research paper and turn it into 0:07:38.210 --> 0:07:41.870 a question, Lisa, what is the future of trust? 0:07:43.010 --> 0:07:47.990 Yeah. So I think at least, um, part of this 0:07:47.990 --> 0:07:51.350 is it's really thinking about the way we work and the, 0:07:51.350 --> 0:07:54.860 the way we engage with others. So, you know, don't 0:07:54.860 --> 0:07:58.340 need to tell anybody that our work practices are changing 0:07:58.340 --> 0:08:00.980 and everything's moving quite quickly. And of course, then we 0:08:00.990 --> 0:08:05.630 got Covid coming along and things changed even more rapidly. Um, 0:08:06.050 --> 0:08:08.630 you know, probably go back to our research and talk 0:08:08.630 --> 0:08:11.690 about one of the things that came out of that was, 0:08:11.690 --> 0:08:13.490 you know, these days we tend to have a bit 0:08:13.490 --> 0:08:15.950 less face to face contact with people in a lot 0:08:15.950 --> 0:08:19.700 of situations. But what we saw out of that research 0:08:19.700 --> 0:08:23.630 was that people trusted their accountants and the work that 0:08:23.630 --> 0:08:28.310 their accountant produced more when they had more of a 0:08:28.310 --> 0:08:33.140 connection with that accountant. When you have those strong professional relationships, 0:08:33.140 --> 0:08:37.790 that's really going to help build those future trusting relationships 0:08:38.120 --> 0:08:41.810 and face to face contact is part of that. One 0:08:41.809 --> 0:08:44.780 of our conclusions in the report was to not let 0:08:44.780 --> 0:08:48.020 technology get in the way of those face to face 0:08:48.020 --> 0:08:52.459 business relationships, because they're still really important, even as the 0:08:52.460 --> 0:08:54.679 way we do business actually changes. 0:08:55.309 --> 0:08:57.829 What did you want to add into that, Geraldine, on 0:08:57.830 --> 0:09:00.200 the future of of the trust and build on what 0:09:00.200 --> 0:09:01.429 Lisa's brought up there? 0:09:01.550 --> 0:09:06.590 Yeah, interesting enough just on that that technology piece. So 0:09:06.590 --> 0:09:08.839 face to face is important. But we also talked about, 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:11.809 you know, we've got the tools have got now with 0:09:11.809 --> 0:09:14.360 you know, teams or zoom etcetera. We've actually got that 0:09:14.540 --> 0:09:16.640 ability to see each other. So although we might not 0:09:16.640 --> 0:09:19.490 be there in the physical sense, but you know, it's 0:09:19.490 --> 0:09:21.590 really important to make sure, you know, you do fundamentals, 0:09:21.590 --> 0:09:24.260 turn the camera on. And you know, being able to 0:09:24.290 --> 0:09:28.670 you can develop rapport and trust, you know, by being 0:09:28.670 --> 0:09:30.679 able to read people's body languages. We know it's very 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:32.960 important about, you know, a lot of the messages we 0:09:32.960 --> 0:09:35.270 convey are not just from our words, but from how 0:09:35.270 --> 0:09:37.340 we present ourselves and our body language. So having the 0:09:37.340 --> 0:09:41.270 camera on. So the future of trust. Yes, it is 0:09:41.270 --> 0:09:44.300 those really old fashioned values that we talk about in 0:09:44.300 --> 0:09:46.219 terms of relationships that we can get around some of 0:09:46.220 --> 0:09:48.680 those technology things, like with the camera. But one of 0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:50.810 the biggest things that came out of it is actually 0:09:50.990 --> 0:09:53.240 suppose back to the future. But and that was really 0:09:53.630 --> 0:09:57.170 honesty is really the number one and it's actually key. 0:09:57.170 --> 0:09:59.900 It might sound a bit old fashioned, but it mattered 0:09:59.900 --> 0:10:03.709 the most to our survey respondents when we did that research. 0:10:04.309 --> 0:10:07.910 And does that. That might tie into my next question. 0:10:07.910 --> 0:10:12.650 I wanted to ask about what damages trust? I mean, honesty, 0:10:12.650 --> 0:10:15.530 I think the perhaps two parts of it, one obviously 0:10:15.530 --> 0:10:17.600 being transparent about how you operate and what you do. 0:10:17.600 --> 0:10:20.209 But if you did make a mistake, what role does 0:10:20.210 --> 0:10:23.930 being honest about the mistake play? Lisa, what do you 0:10:23.929 --> 0:10:24.770 think about that? 0:10:26.300 --> 0:10:31.150 Oh it is crucial. Absolutely crucial. I mean, you can 0:10:31.150 --> 0:10:34.630 do a well, you can do a lot of damage 0:10:34.630 --> 0:10:38.829 to your trusting relationships by having problems, but actually you 0:10:38.830 --> 0:10:41.050 can also do some good if you do the right 0:10:41.050 --> 0:10:45.730 thing and you resolve those appropriately. So resolving them appropriately 0:10:45.730 --> 0:10:49.270 generally means owning those mistakes. We all make mistakes, you know, 0:10:49.270 --> 0:10:52.780 you have to own it, not blame others apologizing if 0:10:52.780 --> 0:10:55.179 you get something wrong that goes a really long way 0:10:55.179 --> 0:10:58.180 as well and really important. You've got you've got to 0:10:58.179 --> 0:11:00.579 fix it. If you've done something wrong, if it's all 0:11:00.580 --> 0:11:04.330 gone astray, then it's it's your job to fix that. 0:11:04.330 --> 0:11:08.800 And by actually by fixing things really well, you can 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:11.530 almost end up in a better situation because you've you've 0:11:11.530 --> 0:11:15.680 shown your clients or you're working partners actually, that you 0:11:15.730 --> 0:11:18.520 can be trusted if things go wrong to resolve them. 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:20.590 And that's just as important, I think. 0:11:21.510 --> 0:11:26.700 Geraldine, what do you think the impact is of breaching 0:11:26.700 --> 0:11:31.199 or breaking trust between a professional and a client? 0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:36.450 Well, it can have, you know, massive repercussion repercussions. But 0:11:36.600 --> 0:11:39.240 as Lisa has just pointed out, you know, you can 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:41.490 get it back, but it can take a long time 0:11:41.490 --> 0:11:44.640 to get back. So, you know, the way we work 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:46.410 with our clients there is it is based on a 0:11:46.410 --> 0:11:49.350 huge amount of trust in each other. So it's actually 0:11:49.350 --> 0:11:51.300 a two way relationship. Actually. We need to think about 0:11:51.300 --> 0:11:55.559 it's not just about clients trusting us as a professional, 0:11:55.559 --> 0:11:58.880 it's actually us trusting the client as well. So that 0:11:58.890 --> 0:12:01.170 two way trust is super important to to think about 0:12:01.170 --> 0:12:03.780 in this, in this relationship. But if either one of 0:12:03.780 --> 0:12:07.980 the parties breaches that trust or breaks that trust, it 0:12:07.980 --> 0:12:10.050 takes a long time to be able to rebuild it. 0:12:10.050 --> 0:12:12.900 And the things that Lisa said, you know, around the apology, around, 0:12:12.900 --> 0:12:14.940 you know, showing you can fix it, you know, bringing 0:12:14.940 --> 0:12:19.800 that track record back in and, you know, keeping things 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:23.880 on track, not making any other errors. Um, you know, 0:12:23.940 --> 0:12:26.579 it's really just that long road to rebuilding it, but 0:12:26.580 --> 0:12:29.569 it can be rebuilt. But if we don't rebuild it, um, 0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:34.980 it's it's basically probably the very hard to have that 0:12:34.980 --> 0:12:36.810 professional relationship. Yeah. To come back from it. 0:12:36.809 --> 0:12:37.800 Yes. Yes. 0:12:37.950 --> 0:12:41.460 So I'm sorry. You go. Yep. There's just to pick 0:12:41.460 --> 0:12:43.650 up on what Geraldine was saying there. There are a 0:12:43.650 --> 0:12:46.410 couple of authors who work in the Harvard Business School, 0:12:46.410 --> 0:12:50.069 and they say pretty much almost an identical comment to 0:12:50.070 --> 0:12:53.580 which Geraldine just made, which is it takes a sustained 0:12:53.580 --> 0:12:59.850 history of right. And that's arrived to wipe out one wrong. 0:12:59.850 --> 0:13:03.990 So it is it's much more important to, to really 0:13:03.990 --> 0:13:07.230 get things right, if you possibly can. There's also a 0:13:07.230 --> 0:13:13.380 really interesting statistic, and I wouldn't necessarily say this is 100% 0:13:13.380 --> 0:13:16.830 to be relied on and repeated and quoted, but they 0:13:16.830 --> 0:13:21.150 have a statistic that suggests that a company can lose 0:13:21.150 --> 0:13:24.810 around about 30% of its value in the short term 0:13:24.809 --> 0:13:28.050 when it loses trust. And as I say, that's I'm 0:13:28.050 --> 0:13:31.709 sure that's a highly variable statistic, but it is an 0:13:31.710 --> 0:13:36.510 indication of the real impact, financial impact that can can 0:13:36.510 --> 0:13:39.390 occur when trust is damaged. 0:13:39.929 --> 0:13:42.860 I think now's a good time to then pivot to, um, 0:13:43.080 --> 0:13:45.660 you know, some of the preventative measures. We've talked about 0:13:45.660 --> 0:13:48.990 the importance of integrity and, and honesty and having that. 0:13:48.990 --> 0:13:53.010 But I'm thinking, Geraldine, what are the benefits? For example, 0:13:53.010 --> 0:13:56.790 if you're part of a professional body like CA ANZ, what 0:13:56.790 --> 0:13:59.610 does being part of a professional body help you with? 0:14:01.090 --> 0:14:02.949 We at the end of the day, we are, you know, 0:14:02.950 --> 0:14:07.390 we are a community of professionals. The CA ANZ itself provides 0:14:07.390 --> 0:14:10.270 a number of of not just tools but, you know, 0:14:10.270 --> 0:14:12.790 access to people and resources. So I'll just give you 0:14:12.790 --> 0:14:15.220 a little bit of a couple of examples if that's okay. 0:14:15.220 --> 0:14:17.350 So you know, obviously even our research paper, so the 0:14:17.350 --> 0:14:20.500 research paper itself was a was a, it wasn't just, 0:14:20.500 --> 0:14:23.080 you know, some sort of interesting set of research. You know, 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:26.760 it really came back with, you know, a set of um, 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:29.590 sort of, you know, six things to sort of think about. 0:14:29.590 --> 0:14:32.040 So there's, you know, there's the research papers will give you, 0:14:32.300 --> 0:14:35.410 you know, some, some ideas and suggestions around how you 0:14:35.410 --> 0:14:39.160 might like to, to approach trust. We've got things like 0:14:39.790 --> 0:14:42.850 ethics training, which is actually mandatory as being part of 0:14:42.850 --> 0:14:47.380 a being a chartered accountant. We have courses actually on trust, 0:14:47.950 --> 0:14:51.190 which again, important to, um, you know, to be aware of. And, 0:14:51.190 --> 0:14:54.040 and one of the my favourite resources. And we are very, 0:14:54.040 --> 0:14:56.650 very indebted to these members and lucky to have is 0:14:56.650 --> 0:15:00.940 our Chartered Accountants Advisory Group, which are a group of 0:15:00.940 --> 0:15:03.610 our members who very generously give their time to help 0:15:03.610 --> 0:15:07.450 their fellow members around difficult situations. So it's exactly these 0:15:07.450 --> 0:15:09.489 sorts of things about, you know, when you've got an 0:15:09.490 --> 0:15:11.800 issue or it might be a conflict or something in 0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:15.610 there that you know, around ethics or that you just 0:15:15.610 --> 0:15:18.550 need to talk to. It's someone who is independent of you, 0:15:18.550 --> 0:15:23.440 independent of the situation, who has vast experience. And, you know, 0:15:23.440 --> 0:15:25.630 you can actually talk through that dilemma with them. And, 0:15:25.630 --> 0:15:28.360 you know, to me, that is one of the most 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:30.880 fantastic things we have and offering our members. So we 0:15:30.910 --> 0:15:34.060 there's a lot of benefits to being, you know, part 0:15:34.060 --> 0:15:35.790 of that, part of the professional body and part of 0:15:35.980 --> 0:15:39.820 something that we all face these issues during our time 0:15:39.820 --> 0:15:42.130 as chartered accountants and during our careers. So it just 0:15:42.130 --> 0:15:44.920 gives access to those, you know, to people and resources 0:15:44.920 --> 0:15:46.540 to be able to talk through those issues. 0:15:46.780 --> 0:15:48.790 Um, there's a couple of good takeaways from there, which 0:15:48.790 --> 0:15:51.160 I'll give some some wrap up when we finish in 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:53.530 a couple of minutes time. And that includes the fact 0:15:53.530 --> 0:15:55.750 that we have done an episode for you on this 0:15:55.750 --> 0:15:59.560 podcast series about the advisory group, or as we call it, 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:02.229 two of our CAAG professionals are on it, one from Australia, 0:16:02.230 --> 0:16:04.540 one from New Zealand. It's really interesting picking their brain 0:16:04.540 --> 0:16:06.880 and understanding how that works. I'll put a link to 0:16:06.880 --> 0:16:09.820 that in the show, notes. Lisa. Before we before we 0:16:09.820 --> 0:16:11.500 wrap up, I'll get a final thought from both of 0:16:11.500 --> 0:16:13.720 you in a in a tick. I also wanted to 0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:18.790 just ask a quick question about what role does deterrence play? 0:16:18.790 --> 0:16:21.880 And I'm thinking in the sense of obviously for chartered 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:24.700 accountants there is a disciplinary framework, but there'd be lots 0:16:24.700 --> 0:16:28.239 of professional organisations who operate with a disciplinary framework. What 0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:31.210 role does deterrence play in ensuring trust is upheld? 0:16:31.540 --> 0:16:34.030 Yeah, I think it does play a pretty important role. 0:16:34.030 --> 0:16:37.210 And it's quite good actually, that our disciplinary framework is 0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:40.450 reasonably public, because what that does is it does signal 0:16:40.450 --> 0:16:44.110 to other members and our clients and potential clients that 0:16:44.110 --> 0:16:47.650 the profession does take any sort of non-compliance quite seriously. 0:16:47.650 --> 0:16:50.920 And then what that does is that builds trust across 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:55.060 the broader profession, and everybody benefits. 0:16:55.810 --> 0:16:56.239 Fantastic. 0:16:56.380 --> 0:16:57.550 Could I add into that Gill? Sorry. 0:16:57.580 --> 0:16:58.510 Of course. Go for it. 0:16:58.660 --> 0:17:01.090 So there's two aspects obviously to deterrence. It's obviously that 0:17:01.090 --> 0:17:04.210 individual side, the accountability and repercussions. But it's actually super 0:17:04.210 --> 0:17:07.420 important that deterrence actually at the beginning of a trust relationship. 0:17:07.420 --> 0:17:09.940 Because if we don't know our clients, they come to 0:17:09.940 --> 0:17:13.060 us often because we are a chartered accountant. So there's 0:17:13.060 --> 0:17:15.939 that trust in the designation. It's a shortcut in a way. 0:17:15.940 --> 0:17:18.400 It signals that to our clients we've got a high 0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:21.640 level of training. We've got we've demonstrated our competence. We've 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:24.340 passed demanding exams. We have a code of ethics, we 0:17:24.340 --> 0:17:27.340 have professional standards, and we abide by disciplinary process. So 0:17:27.340 --> 0:17:30.940 all of that builds trust in our designation, which helps 0:17:30.940 --> 0:17:33.760 in that initial interaction with the new client. 0:17:34.359 --> 0:17:38.200 Absolutely. Look, that is a great way to bring together 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:41.050 the discussion and that it is Global Ethics Day, as 0:17:41.050 --> 0:17:43.570 I mentioned at the start of the show. So on 0:17:43.570 --> 0:17:46.420 that theme, I wanted to let everyone listening know that 0:17:46.760 --> 0:17:49.899 CA ANZ has created a dedicated global ethics hub on our website, 0:17:49.900 --> 0:17:53.290 which links to a wide range of resources, and I'll 0:17:53.290 --> 0:17:55.419 put a link to that in the show notes. And 0:17:55.420 --> 0:18:00.040 we're also making Micro Course three, which is called Conflicts 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:03.639 of Interest available to all members for free until the 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:07.150 end of October, so details on how to access access 0:18:07.150 --> 0:18:09.939 that course can also be found on that Global Ethics 0:18:09.940 --> 0:18:13.869 Hub page on the website. And to coincide with the 0:18:13.869 --> 0:18:17.080 18th of October, we're launching a new trust CPD course, 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:19.209 which will be available, and I'll put the link to 0:18:19.210 --> 0:18:21.490 that in the show notes. I will put a link 0:18:21.490 --> 0:18:23.890 to the episode on the Chartered Accounts Advisory Group or 0:18:23.900 --> 0:18:27.340 CAAG that Geraldine was just mentioning, which is called How 0:18:27.340 --> 0:18:30.730 to Get Help with Ethical Dilemmas. Very topical and key. 0:18:30.730 --> 0:18:33.859 And if you are listening to this on the 18th 0:18:33.859 --> 0:18:36.520 of October, I will not miss an opportunity to let 0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:38.620 you all know that there are still two days to 0:18:38.619 --> 0:18:42.340 vote in our member vote to further strengthen the Professional 0:18:42.340 --> 0:18:45.400 Conduct framework, so eligible members would have received an email 0:18:45.400 --> 0:18:49.330 from electionz.com, which is the independent voting provider who's running 0:18:49.330 --> 0:18:51.280 the vote. And if you can't find it, have a 0:18:51.280 --> 0:18:54.460 look in your junk or spam folder. That email has 0:18:54.460 --> 0:18:56.290 your unique Pin and the link to get into the 0:18:56.290 --> 0:18:59.560 voting platform. We want our members to be involved in 0:18:59.560 --> 0:19:03.080 this important process. If you haven't voted, please do. All 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:05.659 the information is in the voting platform and also available 0:19:05.660 --> 0:19:09.050 on our website. Voting closes on the 20th of October 0:19:09.050 --> 0:19:11.389 and the 20th of October is also the day of 0:19:11.390 --> 0:19:14.060 our AGM. Gosh, come along to that too. I'm plugging 0:19:14.060 --> 0:19:18.520 things left, right and centre. Why not? Lisa and Geraldinea 0:19:18.740 --> 0:19:21.800 final thought before we go. Lisa you first. 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:25.970 Fantastic. Thanks. I would just like to close by saying that, 0:19:25.970 --> 0:19:29.390 you know, research has shown that there are just enormous 0:19:29.390 --> 0:19:34.490 benefits associated with being trustworthy. So very quickly companies that 0:19:34.490 --> 0:19:38.720 are trusted have higher revenues, higher profitability, higher shareholder returns 0:19:38.780 --> 0:19:43.760 and lower employee turnover because trust increases commitment to an organisation. 0:19:43.760 --> 0:19:47.180 So those are all great things to have. It's actually 0:19:47.180 --> 0:19:50.060 much easier to be honest and ethical and reap the 0:19:50.060 --> 0:19:52.369 gains that come with that. And you know, of course 0:19:52.369 --> 0:19:54.770 it is just the right thing to do as well. 0:19:55.220 --> 0:19:57.740 Geraldine, all good points there. What else? 0:19:57.920 --> 0:20:00.380 Yeah, three things for me. I would just say, you 0:20:00.380 --> 0:20:04.639 know honesty is key. So never forget that. Also be 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:08.390 mindful of that trust gap that I referred to early on. 0:20:08.390 --> 0:20:12.440 And in the in the age of, you know, A.I. , internet, 0:20:12.890 --> 0:20:17.360 fake news etcetera, etcetera that are leverage your expertise because 0:20:17.359 --> 0:20:21.350 your the expertise you have is super important to building 0:20:21.350 --> 0:20:23.450 and maintaining trust in the current world. 0:20:23.700 --> 0:20:26.480 I love that leverage your expertise. What a great message. 0:20:26.480 --> 0:20:28.190 That is all we have time for. If you want 0:20:28.190 --> 0:20:30.590 to find out more, head to the Global Ethics Hub, 0:20:30.590 --> 0:20:32.990 which I've mentioned. There's a link in the show notes. Also, 0:20:32.990 --> 0:20:35.540 give the podcast a follow and we have an email. 0:20:35.540 --> 0:20:42.109 So get in touch podcast@charterdaccountantsanz.com Let's start a conversation. Thank you. 0:20:42.109 --> 0:20:45.830 Lisa Marriott and Geraldine Magarey, FCA for being my experts 0:20:45.830 --> 0:20:47.780 on Small Firm, Big Impact. 0:20:48.020 --> 0:20:48.680 Thanks, Gill. 0:20:49.220 --> 0:20:50.000 Thank you. 0:20:50.330 --> 0:20:51.439 Bye bye.