S1: Hi, everyone. Ian here. Now, if you're a regular listener
S1: to this show, I think you'll know just how much
S1: I love doing this job. It is a genuine privilege
S1: to meet some of the best founders and CEOs of
S1: some incredible companies across the country. And today in the show,
S1: I've got Sylvia Martin Savage. She is a fairly new
S1: CEO of deputy. Now, deputy, the story goes back quite
S1: a long time. It's over ten years old. The original
S1: CEO and founder, Ashiq Ahmed. He's actually been on the
S1: show twice, once in 2021, once in 2019. And I
S1: just loved the story. And I knew that the company
S1: was going well, tracking well. And I'd also spotted that
S1: they'd installed a new CEO and Sylvia back in February
S1: this year. And then they reached out to me and said, Hey,
S1: Sylvia is keen to be on the show, which I
S1: thought was going to be a real treat and it
S1: was really, really enjoyed it. It's the first time we've
S1: had a company on for the third time, although we've
S1: never had a founder on more than or a guest
S1: on more than twice. And I really, really, really enjoyed
S1: chatting to Sylvia. She's passionate. I mean, I can see
S1: why the board and ask who's still on the board
S1: chose her because she exhibits a lot of the same
S1: traits that she did. And that really seems to pervade
S1: the culture of deputy passionate, energetic, charismatic, really strong, piercing
S1: vision about the future of workforce management. So anyway, enough
S1: for me. Let's jump over and hear from Sylvia. Okay, Welcome, everyone.
S1: I'm sitting here in the middle of Sydney in the
S1: offices of Deputy with the new CEO, and I'm going
S1: to get her name right, Sylvia Martin Civic. How do
S1: I do?
S2: Well done. Very, very good.
S1: Thank you. This is a new role for you. You
S1: joined on Valentine's Day this year, so congrats. You've been
S1: what's that like for 4 or 5 months? Your profile
S1: on LinkedIn says you're the CEO of deputy, but you're
S1: also the builder of purpose driven companies, which are loved.
S1: And I'm sure we'll come back to that. This is
S1: a first in the deputy's third time on the show.
S1: So we've had a Scheck who was the original founder CEO,
S1: and we've had him on twice and now we've got you.
S1: So I'm pretty excited because, as I said before, I
S1: think a journey was fascinating from taking taking it from
S1: nothing to something and something was pretty good. And you're
S1: here to take it from something to something big and global.
S1: I mean, that's kind of the punch line. Is that
S1: fair enough?
S2: That is absolutely.
S1: Right. Now, I thought I would actually read from your
S1: LinkedIn post announcing your appointment because I thought it was
S1: really good. I loved it and I'll read it out.
S1: So with offices in Sydney, London and San Francisco, Deputy
S1: is a global leader in smart scheduling and workforce management
S1: for shift workers and businesses. Deputies leading software solutions streamlines, streamlines, communication,
S1: scheduling tasks and time sheets for more than 1.3 million
S1: shift workers in over 100 countries. Deputy software also empowers
S1: 330,000 businesses with the tools and insights they need to
S1: simplify workforce compliance and communication and to create a more
S1: flexible and transparent workplace for their employees. Now, I'll come
S1: back to those numbers because I suspect in four months
S1: they've gone up a little bit. But that's it's pretty
S1: amazing and a good overview. Now the next paragraph I
S1: won't read, but I do really want to unpack because
S1: it's really about your backstory and the, I guess the
S1: origin of where you came from. So the only summary
S1: I'll maybe give before I throw it to you. You're
S1: from Croatia, you live in the US, so can you
S1: talk us through how you ended up in this in
S1: this role?
S2: You bet. And thank you so much for having me.
S2: And I know that you've hosted a Chic a couple
S2: of times already, so thank you for giving Deputy an
S2: opportunity to to speak and tell our story. It's been
S2: four months a deputy, and this was a really important
S2: point in deputy's trajectory. Ashiq, of course, led this company
S2: incredibly successfully for many, many years. He is our founder
S2: and in February, he passed on the torch. He is
S2: still on our board. But, you know, one thing that
S2: we realized as we started to get to know each
S2: other is that in a lot of ways, our founder, Ashiq,
S2: and I were kindred spirits. Yeah, I'm an immigrant myself.
S2: I moved to America from Croatia after the Balkan Wars
S2: ended and in 1997 by myself and and, you know,
S2: I really I really built a life there thanks to
S2: my family supporting me. I grew up in the community
S2: of hourly workers in the 80s and 90s. You know,
S2: I grew up in the communist society where there were
S2: not a lot of opportunities. And despite, you know, the
S2: massive potential of people that raised me, they didn't get
S2: a lot of opportunities. And so I was incredibly fortunate
S2: to get to get a scholarship to come to America
S2: and build a life. But one common thread that you
S2: alluded to earlier, I wrote that I'm a builder of
S2: purpose driven companies, that is. The common thread. I have
S2: always looked for finding ways to work and build companies
S2: that don't just create enormous economic value, but companies that
S2: also create societal good. And so early on in the
S2: early 2000, I worked in the investment community. I had
S2: a startup that invested in what today is known as
S2: socially responsible investing.
S1: But at back in Chicago, right?
S2: That's in Chicago. That's right. So I spent almost ten
S2: years investing in women and minority owned companies. And and
S2: then after that, spent time at Groupon digitizing small businesses
S2: and pre deputies, spent four years building financial services for
S2: underserved communities. And so it's just, you know, deputy sort
S2: of path. I feel like, you know, my whole career
S2: has led me to this point. And it's such an
S2: enormous honor to be building this next chapter of deputy.
S1: Just unpacking that because you have gone from 0 to
S1: 1 because you did launch your own business. Tell us
S1: about that.
S2: Yeah, I so this was early 2000.
S1: It was you been young and just new to the country.
S2: I yes. So I moved when I was I moved
S2: to America when I was 17. I finished high school
S2: and finished college and worked on Chicago Stock Exchange for
S2: a couple of years. And notice this really enormous opportunity,
S2: which was I was investing money for, you know, city
S2: and state governments, for firemen, pension plans for policemen and
S2: and teachers. And what I noticed I was at a
S2: time I was an economist and I noticed that a
S2: lot of those investments were all flowing to New York,
S2: to Wall Street. And so I built this report. It
S2: was an econometric report that said, what if the investments
S2: of firemen and teachers and policemen actually were invested in
S2: their communities? How could that impact their communities? And so
S2: at the time, I met this state senator who was
S2: not very well known, that helped me with this effort.
S2: And this state senator was Barack Obama. Wow.
S1: He was very in Chicago.
S2: Of course he was. And this was early on. Again,
S2: he was working in city government.
S1: Because he was a lawyer. Wasn't that.
S2: Right? And at the time was a state senator for
S2: Illinois in Illinois Senate. And he was interested in investing
S2: in women and minority owned companies. And so I sat
S2: on the committee for the state of Illinois to sort
S2: of use investment pension investments and invest those dollars to
S2: help local communities. Right. Because they're for investing retirement funds
S2: of firemen and policemen. Shouldn't you know, those investments reflect
S2: the communities who are giving them the money. And so
S2: it was a really wonderful effort. And yeah, and I
S2: spent doing that over over eight years, first as an
S2: entrepreneur and then in hedge fund industry. So investing in
S2: women and minority owned companies. And when I left, we
S2: invested over a billion and a half. Wow. In women
S2: and minority owned companies at much better returns than what
S2: at the time was, you know, offered by Wall Street,
S2: because this was the you know, this was 2008 when
S2: the Great Recession hit. Yeah. And it was it was
S2: really sort of again, it was a wonderful opportunity to
S2: diversify investments, not just do societal good, but actually create
S2: economic value because it was a way to diversify investments
S2: away from some of the largest companies that were really
S2: struggling at the time. Yeah, and some of them failed,
S2: like Lehman Brothers. Yeah.
S1: I wouldn't mind jumping back to that kindred spirit with
S1: a Schick perspective because, you know, I think that's, you know,
S1: you could have done many jobs as my impression. And
S1: you chose Deputy. I mean, they also had to choose you,
S1: I'm sure. But you definitely did choose them. So can
S1: you unpack that a little bit more? Why was this
S1: place in the culture so special that you decided this
S1: is where you're going to spend the next chunk of
S1: your career?
S2: You bet. You know what was really important to me?
S2: As I was seeking the next opportunity. I spent the
S2: last four years at a firm, a firm. When I
S2: joined it, they were about the size of deputy, about
S2: $100 Million in revenue. And over the course of three
S2: years we had gone public and grew into a multibillion
S2: dollar brand. And so what was really for those who don't.
S1: Know, we should maybe quickly what is a firm by
S1: an no firm.
S2: Is a fintech company that was started by PayPal co-founder
S2: Max Levchin. And it basically we were competing with Afterpay. Yes.
S2: So it was an opportunity when you want to when
S2: you want to purchase something to split the payments. But
S2: a firm was a little bit different than Afterpay. Afterpay
S2: was just doing Split in four. A firm was actually
S2: offering products where you could pay over time, whether that's
S2: a year or two years or more. And and at
S2: the time when I left a firm, I really looked
S2: for a company where I can continue down this thread
S2: of of bringing technology into areas that have been underserved.
S2: And what became very obvious, having spent so many years
S2: in technology and having spent many years in Silicon Valley,
S2: is that. We have invested a lot billions of dollars
S2: in the future of work. But most of that money
S2: was flowing into the future of work for knowledge workers.
S2: Whether that is, again, slack, zoom, asana. So many tools
S2: have been built for knowledge workers. When you ask what
S2: do hourly workers sort of what tools they have to
S2: use to be more engaged and more productive. There hasn't
S2: been a multibillion dollar brand that's been built. And so
S2: it just became obvious to me that while hourly workers
S2: are 80% of world's workforce, the technology just has not
S2: been built to help those workers. And so I feel
S2: the deputy is really incredibly well positioned to become a
S2: global platform for hourly workers. And we do that at
S2: scale today. Already we serve over 330,000 workplaces and actually
S2: we just cracked 1.5 million hourly workers that we serve
S2: and they use deputy every single day where we are
S2: a daily work app for, for now over a million
S2: and a half users globally.
S3: Yeah, that's.
S1: Amazing. And the purpose driven part, I mean, do you
S1: want to explain that a little bit more? Because that's obviously,
S1: you know, right in your LinkedIn profile. So how does Yeah.
S1: Talk about Deputy and its purpose? Sure.
S2: You know, the way that I the way that I
S2: view Deputy is we are a platform that serves both
S2: businesses and their employees. And we see that, again, hourly
S2: workers in a lot of ways. There are workers that
S2: work retail jobs. They work service jobs. They're elderly care workers. Right.
S2: And during Covid, these were the they were the frontline
S2: workers that helped world move when the rest of us
S2: were sort of sitting at our homes. And they were
S2: the ones that made sure that the world kept turning.
S2: But pre-COVID, those workers were the invisible workers. And, you know, again,
S2: this is why technology hasn't penetrated that space. And, you know,
S2: and I'm excited for deputy to be that connective tissue
S2: between employers and employees that happened to be the most
S2: vulnerable workers and help build tools for them. Yeah. To
S2: be more productive and be more be more engaged at work.
S2: And here's what's interesting right now. Look at any economy
S2: on the planet. If you look at in Australia, in US,
S2: in Europe, we have incredibly tight labour markets. Unemployment rates
S2: are at record lows. Right in Australia is 3.4%. In
S2: US it's 3.5% For all intents and purposes, that is
S2: full employment. And so when I talk to businesses, whether
S2: those are businesses here, compass in Australia or whether or
S2: whether that is Dutch Bros in America or HQ, one
S2: elderly care company out of UK, every single one of
S2: those businesses are saying we need more tools to engage
S2: our employees and to retain them. That is the number
S2: one job to be done and we believe the deputy sits.
S2: We are a wedge between employers and employees and we
S2: can become that connective tissue to help employers keep their
S2: workers productive and engaged. Yeah.
S1: I want to get to the what you're going to
S1: do with Deputy. You know, that's sort of 1 to
S1: 100 0 to 1 point, but I wouldn't mind just
S1: digging a little bit more into your, your background because
S1: I found it interesting. You jump from what looked like
S1: the start of a what would have been an amazing
S1: finance career. And you joined what must have been a
S1: tiny startup at the time, Groupon. Yeah, 2011, I think
S1: it was. And I can't remember Groupon's history, but that
S1: was really early in the in that development. So why
S1: did you leave a finance career to join a funny
S1: looking startup?
S2: Yeah, great question. You know, I had spent a decade
S2: in finance and didn't did really work that that gave
S2: me great, great purpose investing in women and minority owned companies.
S2: But I also asked myself, you know, as I as
S2: I spent a decade in investment management, I asked myself,
S2: what do I want to focus the next decade on?
S2: And so I went and got my MBA. I was
S2: getting my MBA in econometrics and statistics from, you know,
S2: one of the preeminent economics programs at University of Chicago
S2: Booth School of Business. And I met a wonderful professor,
S2: Eric Love Kowski, who also was the co founder of Groupon. Okay.
S2: And and so he knew about my love of. Data.
S2: I'm a data person at heart. And he said, Well, Sylvia,
S2: Groupon is a data company. We collect data on economic
S2: activity of the smallest businesses, which happen of SMEs, which
S2: happen to build the fabric of economic activity in America.
S2: And so he convinced me to join Groupon very early on.
S2: And my job, I remember I first day on the job,
S2: I walked into the company and we had just literally
S2: had 100 salespeople start. And my boss told me, listen,
S2: we have 100 salespeople that don't know who to call.
S2: Can you like whip up some data like and build
S2: a demand model on which businesses we should call? And
S2: that was my first job. And so I went and
S2: built a demand forecasting model for what kind of businesses
S2: do customers want to go and flock to. And it
S2: was a fascinating problem to solve. Very original right? Because
S2: up until that point, small businesses were not digitized. It
S2: was impossible to figure out at a societal level what
S2: is the demand for massages or for Thai restaurants or
S2: for escape rooms. Right. And and also another fascinating problem.
S2: After I figured out the demand forecasting and what the
S2: demand for those services, local services is, was a, how
S2: do you now charge for them? What should the price be? Right.
S2: If I asked you how much should it cost when
S2: you jump out of the airplane with a parachute, would you. No, No,
S2: you wouldn't. Right?
S1: I guess, but exactly.
S2: Yeah. And so it was another very fascinating problem to solve.
S2: And so I led the data teams at Groupon pricing
S2: demand forecasting for a couple of years and build that
S2: solid data architecture of how to value the services that
S2: we were providing.
S1: Yeah, I mean, I want to touch on it later.
S1: Just this question of AI and how that's playing a
S1: role now, but maybe just throw it in now because
S1: that demand forecasting piece, I mean that's using big compute
S1: and the latest models to generate probably results should have
S1: died for 12 years ago at Groupon.
S2: That is absolutely right. We had this effort when I
S2: joined Groupon. It had 5000 businesses and we had this
S2: what was supposed to be a year effort on March
S2: towards bringing on 100,000 businesses. We went from 5000 to
S2: 100,000 small businesses in America in a period of eight months. Wow.
S2: And it was both a function of knowing which businesses
S2: to tackle, knowing at what price as it was opening
S2: our self service engine. And so one of the first
S2: projects also was building a self-serve SMB engine where we
S2: opened up our platform to small businesses. And yeah, it was,
S2: it was I learned so much about, you know, what
S2: tremendous economic value small businesses can create for for economies.
S1: I mean, my brain's going to the technical challenges in
S1: 2011 of scaling at that base because there was no
S1: cloud computing back then.
S2: And also, remember, iPhone was invented in 2008.
S1: Yeah. So it was pretty crappy in 2011. Yeah, we
S1: had one.
S2: You know what? At one point Groupon was after Amazon,
S2: the largest mobile company, mobile app on the planet. We
S2: have 100 million customers at that point. So it was.
S1: I take it back, I didn't realize that the adoption
S1: had been that quick.
S2: Oh, that took a few years. Yeah, that wasn't in 2011.
S2: That took many, many years more.
S3: Yeah.
S1: I mean, finishing off in the Groupon, I mean, you
S1: were there for almost eight years and, you know, it
S1: culminated in you being the CEO or so you obviously
S1: were supported from an early point that you had potential
S1: and enlisted in that team. So, I mean, do you
S1: want to just maybe just give us a summary of
S1: that Groupon career story?
S3: Sure.
S2: You know, I always when I look at those Groupon years,
S2: there were formative years I learned at Groupon what it
S2: means to be a really savvy competitor. Right? Everybody on
S2: the planet was wanted to compete. You know, when when
S2: when Groupon sort of invented this model. I also learned
S2: how to scale as well as, you know, mistakes that
S2: were made there. Learned a lot on some of those mistakes.
S2: And I ultimately asked myself the way that I approach
S2: my career at Groupon was where are the problems that
S2: I can help solve? And so early on, the problems
S2: were on the data side. Then, you know, when I
S2: solved some of those problems, I really wanted to be
S2: close to the customer and that meant. Being much, much
S2: closer to our sales team. And so I led a
S2: large sales team. I was a CMO as well of
S2: our international markets, understanding, you know, our customers and what
S2: they were looking for. And then ultimately our CEO tapped
S2: me to go and run international markets. I and I
S2: worked with teams from Sydney to Japan, you know, to
S2: Tokyo to London. And so I think there were really
S2: wonderful learnings there on scaling, Yeah, globally, but maintaining culture, maintaining,
S2: you know, a responsible way of scaling. And what do
S2: you mean by that? You know, just ensuring that as
S2: you scale, you know, we've seen this in in Silicon Valley,
S2: you know, that there has been a lot of companies
S2: that have overextended themselves when cash was cheap and a
S2: lot of, you know, and anybody can grow a company
S2: when you know, when you're when you're spending a dollar
S2: to get $0.90, right? That's right. Yeah. I mean, anybody
S2: can do that. Right. And and I think this is
S2: one of the reasons why I was so attracted to
S2: deputy and frankly to the Australian way of bootstrapping businesses.
S2: I have great respect for that. You know, a shift.
S1: Before from other US executives. It's like you guys are
S1: really capital efficient. You you grew this, you know, like,
S1: you know, I'm a VC as well. And when we
S1: look at a company, if there is the same or
S1: better than their money invested and I don't know whether
S1: it's the same metric, but I mean that's a good performance.
S1: But we've had other ones that are, you know, fully
S1: bootstrapped before they raise venture fund to 2 million bucks
S1: or more. I mean, that's pretty unusual in the.
S3: US that.
S2: That, you know, that is pretty unusual. And especially over
S2: the last five years, as you know, there was tremendous
S2: amount of capital flowing. There was a little bit of
S2: an exuberance in some of the markets, in tech markets
S2: in Silicon Valley. And so, you know, I just have
S2: great respect for companies that are built responsibly. And I
S2: think that purity really, you know, achieved that. And I
S2: think broader community within Australia, you know, is really, you know,
S2: should be respected for bootstrapping for sure.
S1: So you left Groupon in roughly 2019 and joined a
S1: firm as their co-CEO Chief customer Officer. So you were
S1: sales or commercial?
S2: Yeah, I was actually Chief Commercial Officer That's right.
S1: I can't even read my own handwriting here, so that's
S1: what I meant to say. So I'm going to use
S1: this like again, this is on your LinkedIn profile, but
S1: you grew the revenue there from about 100 million to
S1: 1 point 3,000,000,000 in 3 years. Pretty amazing. Bringing you
S1: back to Deputy. I mean, is that the plan now?
S1: I mean, I know you're private, so you're not going
S1: to disclose your revenue numbers, but call it 100 mil.
S1: Like what's like what is the current plan? Like? How
S1: are you articulating this to your staff and investors and
S1: others that you've joined? Like what's what's your objective? Yeah.
S2: I think this next phase of growth is really critical
S2: for deputy. You know, I say this to our deputies
S2: that we are now in that very delicate and important stage,
S2: which is we're a teenage company. We're turning 15 this year.
S2: So we're a teenager that needs to grow and scale
S2: into adulthood. And what this means is that we need
S2: to elevate the company from being a tool that people
S2: use into a trusted brand, a global platform, and a
S2: leading voice on the future of work.
S3: Okay. But I mean.
S1: Again, I don't want to squeeze you in numbers specifically,
S1: but is this a I remember a shake. I went
S1: back and looked at my notes from it. But he
S1: did talk about the ambitions for a number of workers
S1: that you that are using your platform, a number of
S1: customers that are using it. Are you talking about that?
S2: Absolutely we are. You know, again, when you look at
S2: the scale and the potential of deputy, there is 2.7
S2: billion hourly workers in the world and today deputy serves
S2: 1.5 million hourly workers. Here is what I find incredibly,
S2: incredibly compelling. Our workers love deputy product. They trust our brand.
S2: We know that we build trust between workers and employers.
S2: And I know that as we start scaling our business,
S2: not just here in Australia, but also in Europe and
S2: in US. I know that our potential and opportunity is
S2: massive and I cannot wait for a day when, you know,
S2: deputy platform is used by tens of millions of users
S2: globally and that those are the plans that we're building
S2: right now. Great.
S1: And geographies. And I know you're servicing lots of different markets,
S1: but offices right now you've got us London and here.
S1: Is that right?
S2: That is right. You know, I'm going to say when
S2: I know the deputy is a really well respected and
S2: known brand here. You know, in Sydney, when I have
S2: my Sparc logo t shirt and I walk around, hourly
S2: workers stopped me in the street and they're like, Oh,
S2: you're from Deputy. And, you know, there's so much goodwill
S2: for our product here, but I'd love to create that
S2: in New York and in LA and in San Francisco
S2: and in London. But I want to make it clear
S2: we see growth opportunity in Australia just as much as
S2: we see it in Europe and as we see it
S2: in us. We want to continue to grow. You know,
S2: as a tri continental company. There's so much opportunity here
S2: and we actually just recently made an announcement. We brought
S2: in two big leaders. One is our first chief customer, officer,
S2: Katrina Holt. She will be she is based in us,
S2: but is a global role. This is an important role
S2: for us as we as we're scaling our business. And
S2: then the second role we announced is the head of EMEA,
S2: John Wilson. My prior colleague from Groupon, he led Groupon,
S2: Northern Europe and most recently was the CEO of a
S2: recruiting company, Step Stone out of UK. And so he
S2: brings wonderful tech background as well as recruiting and people
S2: technology background. And then Katrina scaled many fintech companies including
S2: she was at a firm and she led merchant operations
S2: merchant support as well as customer support at a firm
S2: and helped us scale with technology from 5000 merchants to
S2: over 200,000 merchants in three years. So I'm excited to
S2: bring that amazing global talent.
S1: Diversity. Maybe we haven't touched in there, but just when
S1: you're talking about Katrina and I'm thinking of you, I mean,
S1: women in the tech environment are not as prevalent as
S1: I think most people would like to see. And I
S1: know it's an issue that's close to your heart. So
S1: do you want to touch on diversity and how deputy
S1: views it?
S2: You bet. I mean, first of all, you know, I'm
S2: just going to say that the community that we serve,
S2: the hourly workers, majority of them are underrepresented groups. They're
S2: minorities and women. And so I want to make sure
S2: that our team and deputy reflects the customers that we serve.
S2: And I'm incredibly proud that 70% of our leadership are
S2: minorities and women. And, you know, I have great commitment
S2: to continue to continue to build a very diverse team
S2: because our customers require that right. How can we build
S2: for our customers if our internal team don't represent them? Yeah.
S2: So I'm super, super excited to continue to build a
S2: very diverse team. Yeah.
S1: I should maybe touch on funding and I'll maybe start
S1: it with the funding climate. I mean, it's tough out there.
S1: I mean, later stage companies in particular are just not
S1: raising and. Right now. I mean, who knows when that's
S1: going to open? Like the IPO window is firmly shut.
S1: So I can't even ask you that question as to
S1: whether you're going to think about that, because it probably
S1: won't happen yet. So, I mean, how much can you
S1: share on this? Because Deputy has taken several rounds of finance.
S1: My suspicion is you'd be getting close to break even.
S1: So you may not need it anymore. But again, even
S1: large companies that are breaking even, I'm thinking just, you know,
S1: thousand meters from here at Canva, they still have to
S1: do liquidity rounds to get, you know, cash into their
S1: early investors and staffs out the resort bucket. I mean,
S1: it's great getting your salary, but you can't buy a
S1: car or, you know, pay down your mortgage with, you know,
S1: share options that you can't sell. So how are you
S1: thinking about liquidity in the current market? And you need to.
S2: You bet. I think that. You know, we see the
S2: macro environment is really, really tough. And as we discussed earlier,
S2: when capital was cheap, a lot of folks, you know,
S2: raised it 20, 30, 40 X valuations. Yeah. You know,
S2: with with with a few million dollars in revenue. And
S2: and so, you know, a lot of folks are trying
S2: to find their way forward. And I'm excited to say
S2: that deputy is not in that place. We are you know,
S2: about 200,000 tech employees have lost their jobs in America
S2: over the last few months. It's been really, really difficult
S2: for Silicon Valley in particular and.
S3: Didn't realize it.
S1: Was that many.
S2: So, yes, you know, a lot of large companies that
S2: have that are sort of embracing now responsible growth. Yeah.
S2: And you know, and I and I'm I am excited
S2: the deputy is in a position of strength where financially
S2: sustainable and deputy has been raised in the last five
S2: years because we didn't need to. Yeah. And so you
S2: know I'm I'm I feel that we are in a
S2: position of strength and we are building, you know, global
S2: expansion plans because our mission deserves it and because our
S2: product deserves it. And, you know, we're not just competing
S2: here regionally. We're competing on a global level in in Australia,
S2: in US and in UK. And again, while to continue
S2: to grow our business, we don't necessarily need funding. We
S2: do ask ourselves how do we accelerate some of our
S2: growth paths, especially as there will be a lot of
S2: interesting companies out there that perhaps, you know, don't have
S2: that runway to continue as independent companies, you know? So
S2: there may be interesting opportunities to find interesting teams and
S2: companies to acquire. And and also, we want to continue
S2: to build out our product suite. Again, you know, I
S2: discussed our product and our business vision as one that
S2: is a platform for both employees and employers and employers.
S2: And we want to continue to solve problems for both
S2: sides of that network. So we are thinking about acceleration
S2: of our product roadmap. And yeah.
S3: And that.
S1: May involve external.
S2: It may involve external funding, you know, but, but we,
S2: we are keeping our options open because.
S1: You went through an IPO with Groupon that happened during
S1: your time there.
S3: Is that right?
S2: Groupon IPO happened. That's right. Just as I was joining
S2: and a firm IPO happened about 18 months post me joining.
S1: Um look I'm not going to ask are you going
S1: to IPO because that's not reasonable to to ask that.
S1: But there are you know in the old days it
S1: used to be IPO or full sale to get any
S1: kind of liquidity back into the business. But now there
S1: is this secondary market arising. So even in Australia you've
S1: got second quarter as a, you know, better known secondary fund,
S1: you know, and they're sort of buying into later stage
S1: companies with the view that they're going to IPO later.
S1: But that liquidity comes back to the early employees and
S1: the early shareholders. So again, are you getting any pressure
S1: from early employees or early shareholders that are like, you
S1: guys have done well, but you know, I really need
S1: to return some cash to my LPs or buy a
S1: nice car.
S2: Here is here is what I'm going to say. You know,
S2: as I was joining Deputy, I had a conversation with
S2: our whole board. And what I heard from them, from
S2: every single one of them, is that they believe the
S2: deputy can become a generational software company. And I joined
S2: as the CEO because I believe that to I believe
S2: that if we serve both sides of our network, employers
S2: and employees, and if we continue to build products that
S2: are going to help them sort of be more productive
S2: and have a more thriving workplace, I know that we
S2: can become a lasting company. That is what I'm obsessing about.
S2: And frankly, you know, I shared our vision and our
S2: strategy with our employees and their heads down working on
S2: building our business. And again, we sit in, you know,
S2: in a in a position of strength. I am not
S2: obsessing right now about financing because we don't need to.
S2: I am obsessing about how do we build the right
S2: business strategy and how do we build the right product
S2: roadmap so that we can serve more employees, more businesses
S2: and and more hourly workers.
S1: I do remember the last interview with a sheikh I
S1: asked him about because deputies are definitely a desirable place to. Work.
S1: I mean, I think your Glassdoor reviews are high and
S1: I think you're on the list of great places to work.
S1: I mean, that's obviously I mean, that is it. Let
S1: me ask it as a question. Is that still continued
S1: and is you retention better than average? I mean, tell
S1: us about that.
S2: Absolutely. I am. You know, deputies and our culture that
S2: Ashiq has built is really one of the main reasons
S2: why I joined. You know, I when I had dinner
S2: with our leadership team before I took the job, it was,
S2: you know, she it was really important to both of
S2: us that I got a chance to get to know
S2: the people that will be my co partners in crime.
S2: And so I had a dinner with our whole and
S2: I asked them a question. It was a it was
S2: a big test. And I asked them a question. If
S2: deputy was a person, what would she be like? And,
S2: you know, beautiful adjectives were said. You know, our leadership
S2: team said she is competent. She is quietly confident, she
S2: is ambitious, she is kind. And I think those are
S2: the words that describe our deputies. And, you know, there's
S2: so many people, countless people that have been here, you know,
S2: every every all hands. We celebrate our anniversaries and every
S2: single time there is folks that have been here for
S2: five years, for seven years, for ten years. Last week,
S2: we had someone that's been here for 15 years that
S2: we celebrated their deputy bursaries. And I'm incredibly proud of
S2: our deputies. And, you know, I think the reason why
S2: we see such a strong retention is that we're not
S2: just building a company that can create great economic value.
S2: Meaning the financial benefit. We're here to create societal good. Two,
S2: to help bring technology into this invisible workforce that's been ignored,
S2: that's been underserved by technology companies. And so I think,
S2: you know, we're all here to do well, but we're
S2: all here also to do good.
S3: Yeah.
S1: That's great. I love that story. Are you hiring now?
S2: Absolutely. Please take a look@deputy.com. We have a variety of
S2: roles in engineering. In fact, we're looking for our head
S2: of engineering right now. Okay. We'd love to bring an
S2: amazing engineering leader from underserved community or a woman. And
S2: we're looking for roles across our geos in London and
S2: San Francisco and here in Sydney. Yeah.
S1: And how big is the staff now?
S2: We are one important bit. We are remote first, which
S2: means that we're hiring. We want to hire top talent anywhere.
S2: And so while we have our while we have our
S2: offices in those geos that I mentioned, we are remote first.
S2: So we are hiring, you know, folks everywhere. We want
S2: to access the best people wherever they're at. The company
S2: right now is reaching that 400 employee count.
S3: Yeah. Wow.
S1: That's great. I wanted to come back to I. So
S1: maybe make this a last topic and then we'll jump
S1: to the quickfire round. So eyes being front of mind
S1: really since last November when ChatGPT came out. But the
S1: reality is has been around for much longer than that.
S1: That's the first reality. And the second reality is it's
S1: not all about generative AI. So can you touch on
S1: AI and the current who has owned it and how
S1: Deputy is thinking about using it?
S2: That's right. You're absolutely right. The the generative AI is
S2: the hype right now, you know, but I has been
S2: around and machine learning has been around for much, much longer.
S2: In fact, I spent a lot of time at a
S2: firm at the fintech that I was at using machine
S2: learning to determining credit worthiness of unbanked population. You know,
S2: and we we had machine learning models that that were
S2: really risk risk models for credit worthiness. And and so
S2: what we're seeing right now, all the hype is as
S2: we type in a funny question, seeing how Chad or
S2: Bart talks to us. Yeah. And so yes, that's you know,
S2: that is interesting. But what I'm more interested in is
S2: how can this technology sort of perhaps take some of
S2: the biases that exist within hiring, within, you know, within
S2: workforce management, and how can it create better ways to
S2: serve our customers? And so over the last few months,
S2: we've been spending a lot of time at deputy talking
S2: about this. And we have a couple of hypotheses. The
S2: first one is that, you know, just like with any
S2: technology when it's introduced, there will be some disruption of
S2: of work. There will be some disruptions. We believe that
S2: this S-curve, this innovation will actually impact knowledge workers much
S2: more than service and hourly workers. And so our hypothesis
S2: is that actually more of those knowledge workers will be
S2: taking part time jobs and get jobs.
S1: And while interesting, I've not heard that. Yeah, I mean,
S1: make sense. I've not heard it expressed like that before.
S2: And so we actually believe that the community that we serve,
S2: which are hourly workers, we think that that community is
S2: going to continue to grow. The second hypothesis that we
S2: have is that the most early impact, you know, early
S2: and impactful application is going to be in customer support,
S2: sort of providing better ways that customers can deploy, you know, technology.
S2: And so we are looking at how can we use
S2: AI for customers to get any answers about their workers,
S2: answers about their labor costs, you know, answers about their
S2: sales and optimizing, you know, sort of those ratios, costs
S2: and sales and also answers around, you know, I mentioned
S2: in the beginning, I'm a data person and I cannot
S2: wait when deputy can be deputy data can drive better behavior. Uh,
S2: between workers and businesses. And so imagine if you were
S2: a coffee shop and you didn't have good retention and
S2: deputy platform could help you with tools and ideas on
S2: how to retain your workers better because we're going to
S2: have data from coffee shops all over the world and
S2: we can tell you what tools they're using to engage
S2: their workers and keep them more productive. And so I
S2: just think that that I can, you know, can build
S2: tools and data to build more thriving workplaces globally. And
S2: that's what excites us.
S1: And are you working in that internally now?
S2: We're working on all sorts of things internally that, you know,
S2: I am not going to disclose that. It's exciting time
S2: in deputy for sure. For innovation. Yeah.
S3: All right.
S1: Thank you. That was epic. Really enjoyed the conversation. Should
S1: we jump to the quickfire round?
S3: Let's do it.
S1: And it did give you advanced warning at least ten minutes.
S3: On this one. Ten minutes. Advance warning.
S1: So we're always looking for I mean, we're try and
S1: do the same questions for every guest. And then it's
S1: interesting to see what they say. So do you have
S1: a recommended book?
S2: You bet. I am an obsessive reader of autobiographies and memoirs.
S2: Any of those are always my fave and I love
S2: reading leadership books. So I'm going to recommend actually a
S2: leadership book that I read recently. It's called Leading Lightly
S2: by Jody Michael. This is someone that I've known for
S2: many years. It is a beautiful, beautiful, practical tool on
S2: how to grow resilience during the tough times. So I
S2: would encourage CEOs, you know, C-level and managers to look
S2: it up, leading lightly.
S3: Interesting.
S1: Is it I mean, everyone has tough times. I mean,
S1: sometimes all the time. I mean, it's like whether it's
S1: in work or your home life or, you know, your
S1: health or whatever. And it's is that does that cascade
S1: across all, you know, all the different aspects of people's lives?
S2: It absolutely does. And, you know, and and we know
S2: that in some economies it's it's it's really difficult right
S2: now with inflation with right and and I think resilience
S2: building resilience muscle is unbelievably important. And you know, for
S2: me it started early. I mentioned I grew up in
S2: in Croatia during the war, not unlike what's happening in
S2: Ukraine today. And, you know, growing up in those conditions,
S2: it really gave me valuable lessons how precious time is. Yeah.
S2: And as I lead deputy forward, I feel great urgency
S2: to solve for the problems of businesses and hourly workers,
S2: and I feel great urgency to bring this technology globally.
S1: I love that. It's great. Well, you've got plenty of time.
S1: You're still very young.
S3: That's arguable. Yeah.
S1: Well, it's all relative. I mean, I'm getting old now.
S2: Fourth decade.
S3: Is actually.
S2: My favorite decade to date.
S1: Yeah, I think the combination of ability and knowledge kind
S1: of peaks. I think in your 40s and then in
S1: your 50s, like meats over the other side. This gets worse. No,
S1: hopefully it's not right. Well said. Hopefully I'm getting better. Well,
S1: I don't know. Podcast.
S2: Oh, I'm obsessed with Kara Swisher. Oh yeah. Pivot podcast,
S2: my fave. I never miss it every Friday. She's just
S2: she's magic.
S1: She has you in the show.
S3: Was that as she had.
S1: You on the show?
S2: Yeah. Let's let's pitch her. Let's picture here. Maybe we
S2: sent her this forecast.
S3: Yeah, maybe she's a listener. Who knows?
S1: No, that's a good one. I love that one as well.
S1: Next one was news source. What did you read?
S2: You know what? I ingest news literally. As someone who
S2: grew up in communism where there was only one news
S2: agency and that was the Communist Party, you know, and,
S2: you know, I operate globally. Every single business I've worked
S2: at over the last couple of decades has been a
S2: global business. And so I read everything from Wall Street
S2: Journal to Economist to Fortune to CNN to BuzzFeed, you know,
S2: to The Australian. I love to read all of it.
S2: And also I love research. I love research. Of course,
S2: the future of work is being defined right now. There's
S2: not enough research on, you know, the future of work
S2: for hourly workers. And we're excited to partner with Harvard.
S2: Harvard is doing a shift work project that Deputy is
S2: partnering with to sort of double click into what is
S2: the future of work for the 80% of workforce that
S2: happened to be hourly workers.
S3: That's great.
S1: Uh, do you have a favorite app on your phone?
S2: You bet. Spotify music gets me through the day. Anything
S2: from gangsta rap to Beyonce to, you know, instrumental guitar,
S2: Spanish guitar. I love it.
S3: All.
S1: And how do you listen to it? Do you pick
S1: a song you like and then go to play radio,
S1: or do you have your preferred playlist?
S2: This Will Yeah, this will be an insight into my
S2: brain when I find something I really love. I just
S2: obsessively listened to that one song. Okay, so, so yeah.
S2: And then actually Spotify has an amazing I don't know
S2: if you, if you noticed for those of you who
S2: listen to Spotify, they now have a DJ that gives
S2: you recommendations based on what you've listened to. And so
S2: I love, you know, and both the DJ gives you
S2: things that you've listened to over the last five years,
S2: but also new recommendations. It's a really great recommendation engine too,
S2: so I discover new things through it.
S1: Yeah, that's great. Uh, who is your favorite CEO or founder?
S2: Oh, my goodness. I'm going to have to go. You know, personally,
S2: one of my faves is, is our board member, Allison Deans.
S2: I want to be Allison when I grow up. She's
S2: such an amazing thinker, leader, operator and a wonderful, wonderful
S2: champion of deputy. And I'm so thankful that that she's
S2: on our board. But, you know, I would actually like
S2: to say when.
S1: You know, you know, that the sheikh ever tell you
S1: this story, I just remembered it triggered the reason that
S1: she's on the board is because, A, she heard my
S1: interview with her on this podcast and then said, we
S1: really need to get her.
S3: Okay, this is 360 right now.
S2: I did not know that.
S1: I've forgotten that, actually, but that I'm pretty sure that's right,
S1: isn't it? Yeah.
S3: That's a great yeah, great.
S1: I'm a huge fan of Allison's as well. I mean,
S1: she's amazing. She's just done so much. Oh, and she
S1: gives and she's smart and she's just got great stories.
S1: I mean, if you haven't heard that podcast and go
S1: back and listen to it, it's just amazing.
S2: You bet. And I do want to say one other thing.
S2: If you asked me favorite execs, I would say those
S2: are the C, C, o O's. Those are the number
S2: twos that are women that haven't stepped up and taken
S2: the number one job. And I hope that many of
S2: those number twos that are listening right now that, by
S2: the way, know how to operate a business, know how
S2: to scale teams, know how to grow the right culture.
S2: I hope that more and more of the number twos
S2: that are women take the number one job, especially in tech.
S2: You know, the fact that less than 10% of CEOs
S2: and tech are women. I hope we grow that.
S1: Yeah, yeah. Here. Here. Productivity tool. How do you stay efficient?
S1: Especially having heard your reading list.
S3: Okay, my.
S2: Team is going to tell you I'm an avid texter.
S2: I love texting. I text 1000 miles an hour. So my.
S2: Productivity tool or messaging tools. Okay. WhatsApp is probably my fave, right?
S2: You know, I believe that, you know, if it can
S2: be done now, why wait till tomorrow?
S3: Do you think there's a.
S1: Is there an emerging messaging tool? I mean, again, with
S1: my hat on, we're looking at a messaging evolution, I
S1: suppose you might call it. Do you think that's needed?
S2: I think it absolutely is needed. And I actually believe
S2: there's been a lot of wonderful businesses that we know
S2: of in Asia that have built multibillion dollar brands, starting
S2: from messaging. I think messaging is an interesting wedge into
S2: e-commerce and to delivery and to many other things. And
S2: in the Western world, we haven't quite yet nailed that.
S2: And so I know that Facebook has tried to do that.
S2: You know, some other folks are talking about it.
S1: As soon as the new one comes out, Facebook will
S1: just copy it.
S3: So yeah, exactly. I can see that you can, Yes. Yep. Agreed.
S2: But yeah, you know, I also asked that question, you know,
S2: how can we enable better communication? And I hear consistently
S2: from our businesses there like we just love deputy and
S2: Newsfeed feature where they can communicate with their hourly workers
S2: on the go communicate about what's happening in the company,
S2: what are the new processes and procedures. And so we're
S2: excited about the engagement we see within our tools.
S1: Yeah. All right. Well, can I switch the mics off?
S1: I'll I'll tell you the idea because this was it. Yeah.
S1: TV show. Do you have time to watch telly? If so,
S1: what do you watch?
S3: I do.
S2: So I've had some time. I've been here for three
S2: weeks in Sydney. My family is over there in us
S2: and I actually bumped into this incredible documentary that I'm
S2: obsessed with, and it's based on a book by Studs Terkel.
S2: The book is called Working. I read the book at
S2: University of Chicago. It is a beautiful book written about
S2: the stories of ordinary people mailman, a worker at an
S2: elderly care facility. And Barack Obama has a Netflix documentary
S2: that is based on this book called Working, and it's
S2: a documentary showing day to day lives of retail workers,
S2: hotel cleaners, you know, elderly care workers. And it is
S2: it is a beautiful, beautiful story. And, you know, it
S2: touches our community. These are the people that we serve
S2: with our technology. And I am obsessed with it. And
S2: please watch it.
S1: I'm sorry. What's that called again? Just it's.
S2: Called working.
S3: Right? Netflix, Netflix.
S2: Documentary that Barack Obama actually is.
S3: Leading. Oh, great.
S1: I'll look that one up. All right. Last question. If
S1: you were asked to do a Ted Talk on a
S1: specific topic, what would you talk about? And maybe you've
S1: done one. I don't know.
S2: I have not done one. I would actually talk about resilience.
S2: I would talk about grit.
S1: Yeah, that's great.
S3: That's it.
S1: It's such an important virtue or asset in people. All right.
S1: I don't really have anything else to add on that,
S1: so I think that's amazing. Thank you. I really enjoyed
S1: meeting you. Sylvia was the first time we met, so
S1: thanks for being in the show. But you get so
S1: much energy. You're very charming. You've got great vision for
S1: the business. And I think, you know, deputies are in
S1: pretty safe hands. You know, I thought it was good,
S1: but you seem to be next level. No offense, Ashiq.
S1: I'm sure he's listening. No, look, it's amazing. I love
S1: this story, which is why we've had you on three times.
S1: So thank you. Yeah. Sylvia, Thank you. And thanks, everyone,
S1: for listening.
S2: Thank you, Ian.