S1: Hi everyone. Ian here Now I just finished our podcast
S1: today with Max Cunningham. Now he's been in the show before.
S1: When he was with the ESX, he was the head
S1: of listings over there and was on the show a
S1: couple of years ago is now with FCX, which is
S1: a pretty amazing business. Probably haven't heard of it because
S1: it's kind of just out the box. Max joined in
S1: January 23rd, so about 6 or 7 months ago is
S1: at the time of recording. It's 100% owned by Fin Clear,
S1: which is a, I guess, an unsung Aussie fintech startup
S1: success story. Pretty amazing journey there, which we get into
S1: a little bit. In the essence of FCX, owning shares
S1: is complicated. I mean, Max came from the public markets,
S1: you know, very much a stockbroker and you know, at
S1: the ASX for a chunk of his career, FCX focused
S1: on the private markets. So if you most of us
S1: in this show are either founders or investors in private companies,
S1: and it's a complicated process. So FCX really exists to
S1: make that process of owning and even transacting longer term
S1: shares within those private companies a little easier. It's an
S1: amazing story. I love Max. He's got the best voice
S1: for a podcast of any of the guests I think
S1: I've ever had. And he's just an awesome guy, you know,
S1: a real pillar of the ecosystem. Great to see the
S1: career journey go from the corporate world into the startup world. And,
S1: you know, I think he's having a great time and
S1: lots of upside for us in the ecosystem. So yeah,
S1: enjoy this. Stick it through to the end because the Nirvana,
S1: which I think we talk about, is is a pretty
S1: amazing place that I think we'll we'll hopefully get to.
S1: All right. Let's jump over it and hear my conversation
S1: with Max Cunningham. All right. Welcome, everyone. I am sitting here.
S1: We're in the heart of Bondi Junction and Juliet's new office,
S1: and we have our first podcast guest. We bought a
S1: little meeting booth, which turns out to be a pretty
S1: good podcast studio, I think. But joined by Max Cunningham.
S1: Now Max is a CEO of FK, which we will
S1: talk about shortly. Those of you with good memories will
S1: recall Max was on the show about two years ago
S1: and when you were still head of listings at the ESX,
S1: which was a pretty great job from what I understood.
S1: I knew you for quite a lot at the time
S1: that you were there and you'd had almost ten years there.
S1: So Max, maybe I'll ask the obvious question Why the change?
S2: Well, firstly, Ian, thanks again for having me back. You're welcome.
S2: And one interesting little bit of trivia. I love your
S2: new offices, love your new studio, But this is the
S2: exact address that my grandmother's first home in Sydney was
S2: when they moved from Longreach in around about 1910, believe
S2: it or not. And this street was actually there's a
S2: terrace house here and I've got all this stuff at home.
S2: And when I walked up it just reminded me this
S2: is the building. And, and it was, it was actually
S2: called Woollahra back then. Yeah, but welcome to Bondi Junction.
S1: So yeah, we're in Grafton Street, just near the station.
S1: And just beside that big expressway that they must have
S1: demolished many homes to build.
S2: Yeah. Yeah, that's.
S1: Right. Including probably your grandmother's.
S2: Yes. Sorry.
S1: Sorry. Yeah. So why the change?
S2: And great to be here. Look, the change I'm, I
S2: think nine years firstly at ASX was a great run.
S2: We basically doubled the size of the capital markets, did
S2: a whole lot of really interesting things with foreign listings,
S2: particularly tech and Kiwi listings, and it felt like time
S2: for a change. But I think in the back of
S2: my mind and certainly through some of the things we'd
S2: been doing with Innovation Bay and stuff that we'd been
S2: doing in Silicon Valley, you know, I also was really
S2: beginning to see a strong development in private markets in
S2: Australia and certainly probably my last year or two at ASX.
S2: That was where I was sort of having an increased
S2: focused on what those opportunities look like. Yeah.
S1: Look, I mean private markets is an expression that we'll
S1: probably talk about a bit here. So maybe let's take
S1: a step back. Yes. What is private markets and how
S1: does it differentiate from the public markets?
S2: Good question. And I think public markets are pretty defined.
S2: We could say them. You know, if you think about
S2: ASX and you think about BHP, that's as good as
S2: you need to understand private markets I think is how
S2: long is a is a piece of string. But it's basically,
S2: you know, at one end of the spectrum, you know,
S2: I think we read recently about Canva and I think
S2: they've got 4000 staff with equity and I think they
S2: were recently they suspended a sale process that they do
S2: sort of annually. But that is one form of private market,
S2: which is a sort of like, if you say an
S2: opening up of shares for investors to come. In. The
S2: other end of the spectrum, I think is for for
S2: those private company shares to trade periodically or regularly, um,
S2: in the same way that shares trade on ASX, but
S2: without maybe some of the full restrictions and obligations that
S2: go with being a public company.
S1: Yeah, no, that's something that doesn't happen too much right
S1: now and I think this is what we're going to
S1: get into because that's really kind of the guts of
S1: what is up to me. We want to split. We're
S1: going to spend most of the discussion around FCX and
S1: what it's doing, but let's just go back a little
S1: bit and just hear about your career journey. Um, and
S1: in some ways it's one of the most more simple ones.
S1: I mean, like you have one of the shortest LinkedIn
S1: profiles of anyone average that I think I've ever seen,
S1: and it's essentially ten years at Macquarie, ten years at
S1: Goldman Sachs and then roughly ten years. So I mean,
S1: do you want to I don't know how much of
S1: that you want to touch on, but you've been global.
S1: Most of it was the public markets side. But I mean,
S1: give us a little bit of an arc of that
S1: career trajectory.
S2: Well, it has all been public markets up until the
S2: end of ASX and you right. It basically every every
S2: decade feels like time for a new start or a
S2: new opportunity. Maybe I just get a little bit bored,
S2: I don't know. But, um, there's a nice symmetry there too,
S2: I think. Um, yeah, look, I mean, I started, I
S2: started in as a retail stockbroker at Macquarie when they
S2: were setting up going into retail stockbroking. Up until then
S2: they'd just been wholesale and so that was fun. I
S2: think one of the common themes is setting up or
S2: being in businesses when they have redirection and new opportunities.
S1: So and this was the 90s. I mean, this is
S1: this was in.
S2: 1994.
S1: Right? So this is free, the Internet. And I mean,
S1: you were the Wolf of Wall Street probably without the
S1: cocaine and.
S2: Oh, no, my Macquarie. I wouldn't say that. You know
S2: I would. It's a macquarie was pretty rigorous and pretty,
S2: you know, strong. I mean the closest you know but
S2: but the I do remember my first email address was
S2: at Macquarie. So you know.
S1: I mean I don't mean Wolf Wall Street in the
S1: sense that you're partying like that, but it was all
S1: phone based and.
S2: Phone based.
S1: Estimates. I mean, it was very.
S2: Phone and fax, right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. We did a
S2: lot of faxing of reports. There you go to people
S2: and certainly email really. I mean, I think the interesting
S2: email was just internal. There was I don't think we
S2: were sending emails externally for for a few years. And anyway,
S2: I was very lucky and got plucked to move to
S2: London on the institutional desk. So that was a big
S2: step up and a big opportunity. And I think that's
S2: sort of a, funnily enough, you know, the probably the
S2: reason I got picked up was I was a retail
S2: broker and I managed to be the broker that managed
S2: all the ESOPs for listed companies on Australia. So, you know,
S2: a lot of not all, but there was a there
S2: was a few and you'd get these, you know, these
S2: big orders of sort of $50 million for a retail broker.
S2: That was a big order and you had to go
S2: and buy those shares in the market over over a
S2: couple of weeks. So that was, you know, having built
S2: that program, I think they saw that sort of I
S2: always had a even though I was dealing with retail,
S2: I always had a very strong predisposition to people like
S2: family offices and corporates and people with large pots of money. Yeah.
S2: And and institutional mindset. So I went to London and
S2: as I mentioned to you before, saw a little, little
S2: area called Scotland that was getting a bit under serviced
S2: and anyway built a franchise, build a franchise. And one
S2: of the great things, you know, I also think, um,
S2: trying to find connectivity with people, you know is the
S2: interesting is the hard thing, you know, and all I
S2: did was educated people in Scotland about Lachlan Macquarie. No
S2: one had heard of Lachlan Macquarie, no one knew how
S2: important he was to the Australian company. You didn't know him. Yeah,
S2: but you know.
S1: The name is not.
S2: The name. Lachlan is not a popular name in Scotland,
S2: even though it's a Scottish name and the name Macquarie
S2: isn't known at all. I mean, so I just did
S2: a lot of education and ran a macquarie annual Macquarie dinner. Yeah,
S2: and all the Scots are great patriots and I loved it,
S2: loved it. So we were able to build a franchise
S2: out of the back of that. And then Goldman called
S2: and it was the dream, you know, we were sort of,
S2: should we move back to Australia? We've been in the
S2: UK for seven, eight years now, and and then Goldman
S2: Sachs in New York called. So what a what a dream,
S2: you know, so and I do remember getting off the
S2: subway many days and our office was just off Wall Street.
S2: And you're going, it's quite amazing, you know, to be here,
S2: you know, coming from the suburbs of Sydney, because that is.
S1: The Premier League. I mean, I've got a friend.
S2: That's the premier about to.
S1: Head over to the UK from here. You know, again, he's,
S1: he's part of the Aussie ecosystem. Yeah. Uh, and I
S1: asked him why he was going because, you know, the
S1: weather is shitty in London and, you know, sometimes it
S1: can be a bit miserable. He says, Look, it's about
S1: playing in the Premier League. Yes. Now I kind of,
S1: you know, I was a little bit I don't know
S1: if it's offended or hurt or, you know, wanted to
S1: defend our our tradition and reputation as the Aussies. But
S1: I mean, do you want to comment on that? I mean,
S1: like Sydney and Australia is not the Premier League in
S1: some ways. Oh, it's not.
S2: It's not. No, no, no. I mean, I think if
S2: you're looking I mean just London's a step up on
S2: Australia by any measure, and the US is a step
S2: up on the UK. I mean it's all about it's
S2: all about best of best isn't it? I mean it's
S2: about where critical mass of capital is and the more
S2: money that's pooling around, the more expertise that will sort
S2: of hover around that. And the bar to get in
S2: will be higher and higher and higher. So I think
S2: absolutely I mean, just like the best companies attract the
S2: best people, you know, they've got that ability. I think
S2: it is similar with with capital markets and the size
S2: of those economies. Yeah.
S1: But it was, you know, you were still drawn back
S1: to Sydney. So, I mean, maybe you're not playing in
S1: the Premier League. I mean, maybe talk about that decision
S1: making to go from the Premier League back to Devon.
S2: Well, I think it was again, it was a bit
S2: of a I'd been a stockbroker and this was an
S2: opportunity to go back to Australia, but to step up
S2: and move into capital markets. So I would say that
S2: not many stockbrokers make the transition into investment banking. I mean,
S2: these are usually the elite graduates from law and from
S2: accounting and from engineering. They also work ridiculously long hours.
S2: So I didn't really fit either of those criteria. But
S2: what I was very good at was relationships. Yeah. And
S2: in capital markets, it's a it's it's as much about
S2: relationships as it is about the sort of know how.
S2: So I think the knowledge of the companies was good
S2: and the relationships was very, very solid. And so that
S2: was a promotion and an opportunity to move back to Australia.
S2: And I think when.
S1: This was still with Goldman or this.
S2: Was the. Goldman Yeah. So coming back to basically head
S2: up the capital markets distribution franchise and help with a
S2: little bit of origination and right in the middle of
S2: the GFC were actually right at the start of the GFC.
S2: We I remember Goldman had this phenomenally new novel idea
S2: called Paternity Leave, and we had our third son about
S2: six months after we arrived to Australia and paternity leave
S2: looked good, but paternity leave in parentheses or quotation marks
S2: because you weren't taking it in one stretch. It was
S2: a day then deal, then a day, you know, so
S2: the Goldman way, you know. But yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good.
S1: And maybe just quickly the trajectory. So you obviously had
S1: ten years there. I mean, why the move and then
S1: when you ended up as head of listings, But was
S1: that a natural evolution for you?
S2: Yeah, well, I started as head of listings and grew
S2: that franchise. And I think, look, the real appeal at
S2: ASX was the CEO at the time, a guy called
S2: Elmer Funke Cooper and Elmer.
S1: Yeah, Industry.
S2: And Elmer had been CEO of Tabcorp and ASX had
S2: just had a failed merger with SGX. So and I
S2: think the board and the management felt that ASX needed
S2: to be a lot more customer focused. So ASX, I
S2: think had a not only a great CEO but a
S2: great chairman, Rick Holiday Smith And obviously Elmer hired me
S2: with the Goldman background to sort of have that stronger
S2: customer engagement and I got to know Rick and his
S2: board very, very well. And look, timing is important to
S2: the IPO market was reopening then. So we had a
S2: little bit of sort of wind beneath our sails. But
S2: we were, I think, able to very, very successfully attack
S2: new opportunities primarily through Tech and and New Zealand and
S2: a few other geographies. Biotech, ET cetera. ET cetera. Um,
S2: and it was a good run. Look, I mean, unfortunately,
S2: Elmer's time was cut short, but, you know, the business continued.
S2: We continue with our strategy and successfully executed. Um, but
S2: funnily enough, the timing was, was fortunate to I had
S2: probably the most important guy, a guy called Eddie Grieve
S2: who was working with me through that whole period. He
S2: decided to retire and that gave me pause for thought.
S2: And so I thought have a little bit of a
S2: break around about the same time. And the IPO market
S2: shut about three months after Eddie and I left. Yeah.
S2: So not saying anything other than timing, but we were
S2: a bit lucky as well. All right.
S1: Let's talk about FCX. Yes, I really want to dig
S1: into this. I mean, maybe let's start with the basics.
S1: I mean, what's your elevator pitch or the barbecue pitch?
S1: You know, if you're trying to summarize it in a
S1: couple of sentences.
S2: The elevator pitch is as simple as we, um, we
S2: want to make the ownership of private companies as easy
S2: and simple as the ownership of public companies, as the
S2: ownership of BHP and Woolworths. It's as simple as that.
S2: And we are the only, uh, operator in Australia that
S2: has got end to end platform, which is share registry,
S2: the ability to settle trades. And we firmly believe by
S2: the end of the year that we have a very
S2: strong likelihood of having a market operator license as well
S2: from ASIC, which will enable periodic secondary market trading of
S2: those shares. Yeah.
S1: Okay. So let's maybe just break that down. So right
S1: now if you want to own shares in a private
S1: company is complicated. You need a lawyer. A shareholders agreement is,
S1: is pretty hard to transact. I mean, a transaction is
S1: is fiddly. I mean, you go to linen and lawyers
S1: and I mean, as as a founder, founder myself, it's
S1: still a phone to, I suppose, myself. I never loved it.
S1: I mean, it's like you feel like you've got to
S1: pretend you're a lawyer and read these, you know, tens
S1: of pages of legal documentation just to get to the
S1: point where you're transacting on a on a share. So.
S1: FCX Kind of I mean, it is simplify. Is it
S1: simplifying the right word? Democratize a point.
S2: Both of those are appropriate. I wouldn't want to oversimplify it.
S2: I think you still need lawyers. And and we are
S2: we are not a substitute for a lawyer. We're not
S2: a substitute for an adviser. What we are is a
S2: piece of infrastructure that enables the storing of information and
S2: the transacting of shares a lot more simple than are
S2: currently done today. So and the storage of those documents.
S2: So I think. Look 80% of the people that are.
S2: So if we think about the first step of the
S2: journey and that's the share registry. 80% of the companies
S2: that we're bringing on to platform are coming from Excel spreadsheets. Now,
S2: what has surprised me is the number of large companies
S2: that are still running their registries on Excel. You know,
S2: we've got one company generating $1 billion in revenue, actually
S2: two that are generating close to $1 billion in revenue
S2: that are running their registry on Excel. We've got obviously
S2: a lot of startups and if you've got 5 or
S2: 10 shareholders, that's understandable. But we have spent the last
S2: few months ingesting three companies with shareholders, two 300 shareholders
S2: of Excel. You know, and it's a it's a big job.
S2: And so that's the first thing. You know, it's an
S2: absolute source of truth from a shared registry perspective and
S2: a storage of documents.
S1: So so the technology behind this is obviously going to
S1: be robust and well constituted and thought out. So let's.
S1: Can you maybe tell us about the genesis of FCX
S1: and you know, who built this software? And because the
S1: architecture behind this, the infrastructure behind it is obviously complicated. So, yes.
S1: Where did it come from?
S2: Well, look. Well, the generation, funnily enough, the idea of
S2: it came. So our parent company, Sinclair, did a capital
S2: raise and a secondary transaction nearly two years ago. So
S2: it was 20 million primary and about 40 million secondary.
S2: And Goldman, funnily enough, was involved in that transaction. And
S2: the lining up of the buyers and the sellers and
S2: the agreeing of the price that took a few weeks,
S2: that's the usual negotiation. But the settlement took ten weeks.
S2: And our group, CEO of Finchley, David Farrell, just could
S2: not believe the amount of settlement meetings he was getting
S2: dragged into and qualifications of this on the spreadsheet or
S2: that and, and good lever, bad lever entitlement to sell.
S2: And he said, well, there's just got to be a
S2: better way. There's this got to be a better way.
S2: And so I think he cast his eye, funnily enough,
S2: towards ASX and looked at what they were building with
S2: the chess project, which has since been scrapped and looked
S2: at the technology that they were using, which is daml,
S2: and that's basically built off by digital asset holdings in
S2: New York. And he thought, well, hey, there's a few
S2: stock exchanges looking at that, including ASX. That looks like
S2: a great private that's a private ledger. Who knows in
S2: the future that might be able to integrate with other
S2: stock exchanges and running off Daml. And so that's that
S2: was how the decision making for that was was built
S2: and there was.
S1: A tech built by FCX or did you license some of.
S2: It? Well, no, the Daml is open source and and
S2: DA sorry, FCX built some of it internally. And then
S2: there's a group in Perth called Mechanical Rock who also
S2: help with some of that with some of that build
S2: as well. So that was from spec to go live
S2: probably 18 months I think. And the registry big project. Yeah,
S2: the registry and the settlement platform went live and around
S2: about November last year and last week our Esop module
S2: went live and is now in beta testing. And the
S2: next mountain we have to climb is the trading platform
S2: to coincide with the market license, right? Yeah.
S1: And so how big is the technology team?
S2: The tech team at Fin Claire is probably around about 30.
S2: FCX has got a couple of dedicated techies. There's a
S2: couple of others that come on board when we need
S2: when there's something going on. So yeah, and we've also
S2: got outsource that we for some of the specialty stuff. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. Look, it's probably worth jumping back just for a
S1: second to fin clear because I mean it's a, I
S1: think in my view an unsung Aussie fintech technology success story.
S1: I mean, do you want to give us a bit
S1: more background to. Finkler Yeah, it is.
S2: And I think probably the reason it's a little bit
S2: unsung is it's a little bit unsexy, you know, and
S2: some of the best businesses are exactly unsexy. So Finkler
S2: in layperson's terms is basically the, the biggest it's a,
S2: it's a back office aggregator for Australian stockbrokers. So if
S2: you think about Shaw's and Wilsons and Ords and a
S2: lot of those household stockbroking names that are retail, we
S2: basically managing their entire back office, which is the when
S2: this trades that come in and have to get settled,
S2: we run that whole process and that was basically born again.
S2: David Farrell is the is the founder of that and
S2: he built that. Business. It's probably around about nine years
S2: old as a little bit of a sort of start
S2: up disruptor using a bit of technology that brokers aren't
S2: renowned for investing heavily in. And and one big thing
S2: that I think changed the business was the biggest competitor
S2: came up for sale a company called Pershing and they
S2: were able to buy that about three years ago. And
S2: that really transformed the business both in terms of customers
S2: and and and cash on platform. So.
S1: And there's a adventure story behind this like how did
S1: David fund it.
S2: A little bit himself. King River. I have been probably
S2: an early stage investor. David Hancock, who was one of
S2: the original investors in Afterpay, who's our chairman there, probably
S2: three of the big guys, and then Thorney Regal Marina.
S1: These are not well known venture funds.
S2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, So they're probably more sort of,
S2: I guess, what you would call crossover funds. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No.
S1: It is an amazing story. And I mean, I haven't
S1: met David, but he seems like a, you know, force
S1: of nature. Yes.
S2: Well, if you're reading what he's doing in the press
S2: at the moment, I hadn't seen that he was in there. Oh, look,
S2: I think he was he was a chief supporter of
S2: the ASX in the chess project and now he's become
S2: chief prosecutor. Right. And the chief supporter, I think gets overlooked.
S2: But he's been very, very vocal because I think we
S2: represent so many brokers in Australia that are effectively beholden
S2: to the underlying infrastructure of the the ASX. And so
S2: he's really been taking up the baton to to sort
S2: of like say what's going on here. Now this system's
S2: been paused or shelved or what's happening. You know, we
S2: and our clients need a lot of visibility because we've
S2: got to invest capital.
S1: And just quickly.
S2: Rebuild.
S1: What was the chess project?
S2: Well, this was the chess project is ASX as clearing
S2: and settlement system that is currently 20, 30 years old.
S2: I know because I was involved with it at Macquarie
S2: as a retail broker when we were getting dematerialized share
S2: certificates and like any 30 year old technology, it needs
S2: to be it needs to be replaced. But it's not
S2: as easy as buying something off the shelf because Australia
S2: and to ASX credit, ASX was the first stock exchange
S2: in the world to digitize share ownership in 1994. The
S2: problem is between 1994 and 2024, the world's changed a lot.
S2: The systems have had a lot of add ons and
S2: the market is a lot more complicated than it was
S2: in 1994. But there's no off the shelf product because,
S2: believe it or not, most markets in the world still
S2: have their shares traded with paper. There's only around about.
S2: There's only people you can count them on two hands,
S2: the countries that actually have fully dematerialized stock ownership.
S1: Interesting.
S2: Yeah.
S1: All right. Let's jump back to FCX. I mean, what
S1: I'm interested in is the opportunity and the potential market
S1: size and who you're selling to because yes, for Max Cunningham,
S1: you know, Macquarie, Goldman Sachs, ASX to jump out and
S1: spend probably the prime time of your career and something new,
S1: it's going to be a big opportunity. Yeah. So who's
S1: it for?
S2: Well, I think it's I think it's a limitless and
S2: unlimited opportunity, you know, because we're really creating something very new.
S2: And I think that there's a few macro driving forces
S2: as well that that help us. In terms of the timing.
S2: You know, if you look at what's happened in the
S2: US around about the turn of the century, there's been
S2: a massive take up and growth in companies staying private
S2: for longer. And that's right. And I think that's partly
S2: regulatory and partly of the available. We've obviously had 20
S2: years of loosening monetary policy, which has helped as well. Now,
S2: at the moment, obviously, we're in a tightening of monetary
S2: policy phase, but I still think in Australia there's a
S2: deeper and tighter regulatory environment for companies going public. The
S2: other thing that gets overlooked I think is the huge
S2: impact and advent of index funds. And so I think
S2: the public markets are increasingly the haves and the have
S2: nots and the haves are the companies that are in
S2: the index and the have nots are the companies that
S2: are not in the index. And what we've seen during
S2: this sort of recent economic turmoil is the companies that
S2: are listed and have not been in the index have
S2: just seen their liquidity dry up completely to the point
S2: where they often trade on appointment. So what's the opportunity?
S2: I think the opportunity is to service the companies that
S2: have already decided that they're going to stay private for longer.
S2: And quite frankly, we seek to service everyone from the
S2: company that's starting today to the company that's got $1
S2: billion in revenue and 2 or 3. Hundred employees in
S2: their Esop. And I think we're going to see more
S2: of those companies at every point in the in the spectrum.
S1: So for the listeners here, so they're likely to be
S1: startup founders, VCs, other investors, people interested. I mean, what
S1: what should they be doing, like to become a customer?
S1: I mean, can they do it right now? And what
S1: are they signing up to? I mean, just. Yeah.
S2: Well, look, one of the great one of the one
S2: of the things we've done is for companies with shareholders
S2: of five or less because we want it's, it's actually
S2: quite cheap for us to ingest them and get them
S2: on is we're we're not charging for them to come
S2: onto the platform and I guess it encourages good habits early,
S2: you know, in terms of digitizing your platform. I think
S2: if you're going to be a company with one shareholder
S2: or two shareholders and you're never going to change, then
S2: FCX isn't for you. But if you're going to have
S2: funding requirements and you've got four shareholders today and that
S2: might become eight in the future and that might become
S2: 16 after that. FCX is a great place for you
S2: to basically start your life, have your share register, raise
S2: capital on platform, settle atomically, which is instant settlement and
S2: and potentially roll out ESOPs and and eventually potentially if
S2: you if you're if you're super successful like a Canva
S2: or a company like that you know and you don't
S2: want to go public there's the opportunity to have your
S2: shares trade on on FCX in the future. Right.
S1: Interesting.
S2: And so and they can contact me at max@fcx.com or
S2: you to discuss it further.
S1: I was going to ask that at the end, but
S1: you got in there early. That's great. So, I mean,
S1: maybe just breaking some of them down. So raise capital
S1: on the platform. So what does that look like? So
S1: you're a early stage startup. You've had your idea, you've
S1: got a couple of customers, software business, maybe a team
S1: of sub ten. Yes, shareholders are probably I don't know
S1: if you haven't got any funders on it might be
S1: 3 or 4. Yep. And you're about to go out
S1: and raise capital. So maybe just talk through the journey
S1: of this fictitious startup as it goes from there to,
S1: you know, the size of Canva.
S2: We don't I think I can talk openly. We don't
S2: need to do fictitious. We can we might have to
S2: be fictitious beyond the success of Canva. But look, I
S2: think we've got 40 companies today on the share registry
S2: and that's sort of like going to be 50 in
S2: the next month or two. We're onboarding solidly. We've done
S2: just before I went away recently, we completed our fifth
S2: capital raise on the platform. The companies that are on
S2: the platform typically are a little bit on the smaller side,
S2: but the ones we're growing on are a little bit bigger.
S2: But we've got a great little company down in Rose
S2: Bay that have been with us very early on, a
S2: company called Happily. They're basically a company that do removal.
S2: They're basically help you move home with utilities and locate
S2: a what is it, a removalists, etcetera, etcetera. So they
S2: fit exactly what you described. And they had around 6
S2: or 7 shareholders. They'd gone on to the platform and
S2: they they needed to do a capital raise. So they
S2: did all of the finding, the potential shareholder in this
S2: case it was one investor. We set that investor up
S2: on the platform. They put their money into an account
S2: which is an ANZ, we've got ANZ custody accounts and
S2: it's as simple as that. The money's there now really,
S2: you know, what happens is as soon as that money's
S2: in the account and they're happy to settle, we do
S2: this thing called atomic settlement, which is instant and they
S2: get the shareholder, they get the share certificate immediately. The
S2: company immediately recognises that with issuance of shares and the
S2: company gets access to that capital. So that's what we're
S2: doing for a lot of the smaller companies.
S1: But this is an advisory. It's not that it's.
S2: Not advisory at.
S1: All. So you're not going out and selling this company to. Right?
S2: No, it's infrastructure. It's just a settlement tool. But what
S2: that means is they don't have to go to the
S2: effort of creating the share certificate. Now, for one investor,
S2: that might not be a huge amount of effort, but
S2: we've been involved in transactions. We're doing one at the
S2: moment where there's there's there's potentially going to be 30
S2: or 40 investors involved. So there's a huge amount of
S2: admin on that. And ultimately what we're doing is ensuring
S2: that that the settlement, the transaction, the issuance of the
S2: shares happens at the touch of a button.
S1: And then later is going to be the trading correct?
S1: Is this a good time? Should we talk about that? Yeah.
S1: So what does that look like? Because that's it feels
S1: to me that's it. It's it's more complicated perhaps, and
S1: maybe more regulated. I mean, how do you go from
S1: more regulated to that? Yeah.
S2: We've got 40 companies on the platform today. Not all
S2: of those would be appropriate. In fact, most of them
S2: would not be appropriate to come on to the trading platform.
S2: But again, to use the fin clear example. So Finkel
S2: has got 400 shareholders. A lot of those are early
S2: stage investors, a lot of them are staff, a lot
S2: of them are ex staff. And what do they all want?
S2: Periodic liquidity on their shares. At the moment we have
S2: no capital needs, so there is no planned liquidity event.
S2: But what Finkler would like to do is have its
S2: shares trade in a secondary market without having to go
S2: onto the ASX. And so what the what what what
S2: FCX is, is basically doing is we are creating the
S2: ASX light framework, for want of a better word, we'll
S2: have a rule book which will basically focus very much
S2: on disclosures that you have to make, which is cleansing
S2: the market. And once you've done that, you can have
S2: your shares trade, the shares will trade. I would say
S2: periodically when the company wanted to trade. So, you know,
S2: most companies to begin with will probably have their shares
S2: trade once or twice a year. After their results. They'll
S2: have a batch number of shares that they'll release for
S2: staff to trade. They'll do an investor relations program, and
S2: then then there'll be an auction that'll open and those
S2: investors will put in, put bids and offers into that auction,
S2: and then a price will be struck. As simple as that.
S1: I mean, this feels like a bit of a game changer.
S1: I mean, if again, bringing it back to Australia and,
S1: you know, maybe even innovation being. And I think our
S1: Roro group has got almost 100 VCs as members. I mean,
S1: there's 120 individual members almost. So that's let's call that
S1: the whole market. It's not it's probably, I don't know,
S1: two thirds of the market if that's the whole market.
S1: And then we ran the numbers. So those 100 VCs
S1: or thereabouts have got about 1500 portfolio companies. I mean,
S1: the world in which all 1500 of those portfolio companies
S1: are using, quote, marks here listed and tradable on the platform.
S1: That's a game changer because you've got liquidity for staff,
S1: for the early investors, for the early shareholders. Is that
S1: am I putting this right?
S2: Oh, I think it is, absolutely. And I think the
S2: engagement we've got with the VC community, the engagement we've
S2: got with their portfolio companies and and start up companies
S2: that haven't had VC funding is exactly that. You know,
S2: I think if there's any avenue that we can have
S2: to delay listing as long as possible, and that's something
S2: that I advocated when I was at ASX, you know,
S2: put off your listing as long as possible, be as big,
S2: make as big an impact. And the other thing is,
S2: the bigger you get, the more optionality you've got. Right?
S2: Sorry to use the Canva expression again, but I mean,
S2: they're in a beautiful space. You know, they're self funding.
S2: They can decide when they can decide where. And not
S2: every company is going to be a Canva. But certainly
S2: it gives the the bigger you are, the more options
S2: you get. And I think a private market is going
S2: to be be a game changer and a partner in
S2: that process.
S1: And who sets the price?
S2: Investors, right? Yeah. Look, the company that's going under the platform,
S2: if they've got some price sensitivity, they've got the ability
S2: to influence certain things, like how many shares can be
S2: sold by staff, They might be able to put a floor,
S2: for example, on that. But ultimately, the only people that
S2: ever set prices are investors. You know, I mean, a
S2: share is only what someone's it's only worth what someone's
S2: prepared to pay for it. Nothing more. Nothing less.
S1: Yeah. I mean, going back to it, I mean, if
S1: there is a world where all the privately listed amazing
S1: tech companies across Australia to start with, and then maybe
S1: the world are listed on a platform like this, then
S1: that is super interesting. I mean, I can see now
S1: why you wanted to join. I mean, this is the. Yeah,
S1: that's amazing.
S2: It's a massive opportunity. It's a massive opportunity. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. Wow. All right, let's. What else do we need
S1: to talk about? Yeah, the go to market. I mean,
S1: it's all very well having a massive opportunity, but, you know,
S1: as I spend a lot of time talking to, you know,
S1: portfolio companies and people ask me for advice, you know,
S1: you go to Target, you know, just because the world
S1: is your oyster doesn't mean you sell to the world.
S1: Who initially are you going to be targeting?
S2: A good question. We are kind of targeting everybody, but
S2: it's kind of where we where our economics are skewed
S2: towards people who are doing capital raises or secondaries, because
S2: that's the big solution. That's the big nightmare that we're making.
S2: Go away. So I guess in the ideal, companies are
S2: companies that we hear about that are planning to do
S2: a capital raise in the next 12 months for us.
S2: The ingesting of the shareholders into the register, that can
S2: take days. That can take weeks. Our guys do a
S2: huge amount. We've got actually some of the best people
S2: that have come across from share registries like Lincoln or Tomic.
S2: So they're actually familiar with the public registry world and
S2: and truth of name on register. So the scrubbing takes
S2: a huge amount of effort. And so what we're trying
S2: to do is get companies on and and help them
S2: be be match fit for when they raise capital or
S2: when they have a secondary. And yeah, so look, companies
S2: that we're we're having huge amount of engagement with the
S2: companies with valuations between 50 and $500 million is the
S2: sweet spot but we don't want to put off companies
S2: that are smaller than that or larger than that. And
S2: we've got some great engagement with some of the smaller
S2: companies as well.
S1: And how how do you charge I mean, what is
S1: the pricing structure like?
S2: The share look, the sheer registry business is is is
S2: pretty minimal. You know, it's it costs nothing up to
S2: five shareholders and then 5 to 20 shareholders is $50
S2: a month. 20 to 50 shareholders is $150 a month.
S2: And then it's $250 a month after that.
S1: Okay. So it's nice and clear and.
S2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We don't charge per number of shareholders
S2: or anything like that. Look, I think beyond that, we
S2: for the capital raise is we're taking a we're still
S2: finding our way. We're taking a percentage of capital raised.
S2: I wouldn't want to sort of lock in anything at
S2: the moment on on what we're charging there because we're
S2: still working that through. Look, I think if we're doing
S2: larger raises, there'll be some caps in place and then
S2: it depends on how much work we do. Some of
S2: them we're handholding all the way. Others are using advisers.
S2: And so there's a probably a variance in fees there
S2: if they're if they're using advisers a little bit lower
S2: as well. And the Esop module, that's going to be
S2: the real game changer. I think that's where people have
S2: lots of headaches and we're working through the process.
S1: Let's dig into that a little bit because, you know,
S1: Esop can be a challenging thing, especially if there's not
S1: one place. I mean, you know, often when as an
S1: investor you're coming in, you don't see an Esop in place,
S1: like you should have an SOP in place and then
S1: put it in. But it's quite complicated to do that.
S1: So do you want to talk a bit more about that?
S2: I think the common problem with ESOPs that we see
S2: firstly are using cheap lawyers to get it set up.
S2: So there's actually reduces a lot of optionality or pushes
S2: costs down the back end in terms of sorting these
S2: things out, in terms of agreements. Secondly, it's just depending
S2: on how many people are in the Esop, I haven't
S2: managed one myself, but when I speak to founders, it's
S2: just a very, very messy. If you've got a lot
S2: of people in there, you've always got people leaving, you've
S2: always got people coming in. Let's say you've got 5%
S2: of the company available in a given year. You've always
S2: got to be managing levers coming in, new hires. How
S2: do you roll that out? And so the vesting and
S2: vesting and the vesting calculator. Absolutely. And one of the
S2: things is people always want to know, how many shares
S2: do I have? What's vested? Yeah, actually worth. Yeah. We've
S2: got one company coming on at the moment that has
S2: Daly vesting. We've never come across that before. So more
S2: commonly is quarterly or twice yearly. But this tool that
S2: we've built and is now we've got about five of
S2: our clients in the beta test, it really enables you
S2: to just be able to manage that on screen. You know,
S2: most people, even on other share registry platforms, are managing
S2: their Esop effectively on, on, on Excel. Yeah. And this
S2: will automate the entire vesting process.
S1: And how, how much human labor is involved in onboarding
S1: a customer. I mean it's maybe different now to how
S1: it might be in a few years time, but some
S1: of this stuff is fiddly. Like, you know, you're vesting
S1: and your, you know, your ESOPs and blah blah, blah.
S1: I mean, it's there's going to be humans. You must
S1: have a team that's looking after the onboarding.
S2: It's extraordinary how time consuming it is because what we
S2: really want to do is give a truth in register.
S2: So we don't only want to show that Ian Gardner
S2: owns a thousand shares in company XYZ today. We want
S2: to show that he owned 500 shares two years ago
S2: and 250 shares before that. And the. Timing. And so
S2: this thing called scrubbing the register is the most time
S2: consuming things because, one, they'll often spell, you know, they
S2: might spell gardener the wrong way. You know, they might
S2: you might have changed addresses. You might have different emails
S2: in which you've subscribed to one. And so what we're
S2: trying to do is make sure that whole register is complete.
S2: So it's surprising and so and expensive.
S1: I mean, you need good people like lawyers, probably.
S2: Oh, no, no, no. We've got the guy that heads up.
S2: The team is a lawyer, Dean Jagger, and he's worked
S2: at Lincoln Atomic. And there's a couple of other great
S2: people on the team that have also sort of got
S2: great registry and technical skill background. But no, look, I,
S2: I think it's eye to detail. I think it's eye
S2: to detail and, and just being technically proficient. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. Again, let's think about that Nirvana in a few
S1: years time when you've got all the private companies listing
S1: and trading. Yeah. Does that do away with the requirement
S1: for the like how do you play in the sandpit
S1: with ASX.
S2: Oh I think at the Fringe there's, there's the prospect
S2: that people might see as an alternative. But I think
S2: I like to see it as incredibly complementary to ASX.
S2: I think that this will produce companies that are much
S2: more aware of their listed company obligations, i.e. in terms
S2: of reporting, in terms of board structure and governance. They'll
S2: all be appropriate on an FCX but in a lighter touch. Secondly,
S2: as I said earlier, when I was at ASX, I
S2: frequently said to companies don't list too early. My view
S2: was wait till you've got a critical mass of institutional investors,
S2: wait till you can potentially get into the index because
S2: they're going to be your key sources of liquidity. And
S2: I think this fulfils that actually. And I think if
S2: FCX is doing its job, one of the things is
S2: it should be seen by ASX as a funnel for
S2: high quality companies that know what being listed looks like
S2: more than the company. So I think one of the
S2: problems is there's a lot of a lot of advisers
S2: out there that peddle dreams that, you know, being being
S2: listed is a bit like, you know, being on Wall
S2: Street stars in your eyes. But, you know, the counter
S2: to that is the bell ringing is the bell ringing
S2: is a bit like your wedding day. You know, it's
S2: a there's a lot of champagne, a lot of excitement.
S2: But there's a long, long, long journey ahead as a
S2: listed company after you've rung that bell. Yeah.
S1: Second quarter. I mean, so there are I mean, the
S1: secondary market is is a thing. I mean, second quarter
S1: is a fund. Yes. That invests in, you know, late
S1: stage companies that may be about to to IPO doesn't
S1: even strike me that they're going to be competitive. They're
S1: going to be complementary and potentially our investor on the platform.
S1: Is that right? Oh, I would hope so.
S2: I don't think there's any competition there at all. I mean,
S2: I think, you know, since I came up to Aurora
S2: with you guys a few months ago and I second
S2: quarter were there, and one of the big themes that
S2: came out and some of the breakout sessions was rollover
S2: funds and secondary funds growth. And this this has been again,
S2: a big theme that's probably been dominant in the US
S2: now for ten years, but it's just making its way
S2: down here. So I think it's incredibly complementary to what
S2: we're trying to do.
S1: Yeah, look, we are sitting here, it is 31st of July.
S1: I don't know when this is released, but we've got
S1: Venture Down Under coming up, so we're going to have
S1: over 100 VCs from our group coming to Queenstown for
S1: a conference. What are you going to be seeing? What
S1: are you hoping to you'll be hanging out with these
S1: people all the time. Is this the time? Are you
S1: on sales mode? You want them to sign up? You
S1: want the portfolio companies onboarded.
S2: Well into this is two interesting things. I mean, one,
S2: we love for them to just introduce us to portfolio
S2: companies because we think ultimately if you're, you know, a
S2: blackbird or an tree square peg, any of these guys,
S2: I mean, what we would love is for them to
S2: have all of their shareholders. There's a benefit for for them,
S2: you know, all the shareholdings, which they're probably managing through
S2: a different back office will be actually they'll be able
S2: to hold their shareholding in one source of truth on FCX.
S2: So there's one there's a nice administrative thing for the
S2: VCs if we do get what, you know, some form
S2: of universal coverage, that'll be great. Secondly, it helps their
S2: companies out. I mean, this is an administrative pain in
S2: the ass for founders, so the more the less time
S2: they spend on admin, the better and this gives them
S2: time back. And thirdly, we are about to test FCX
S2: registry for VCs. Okay. Some of your members we've already
S2: spoken to some some were in Sanctuary Cove and and
S2: some sort of in coffee shops. ET cetera. ET cetera.
S2: But we've got a little sandbox. And when we pitch
S2: this to them, they all said, Oh, well, we've actually
S2: got a little bit of a problem ourselves with their
S2: back office. Do you think you'd be able to put
S2: a fund on FCX? So, so a fund.
S1: Like Felix with 182 LPs, is that.
S2: Yeah, absolutely.
S1: Right. So this would help manage that?
S2: Absolutely. Look, I'm not going to pretend I'm the the
S2: oracle on this, but I've hired a guy starting tomorrow
S2: who can do a deep dive project on this for
S2: the next month. The VCs that have already reached out
S2: of all said that they'd love to meet him, introduce
S2: him to their back office, explain what the problem is
S2: and his job. And I've given him a task of
S2: 4 to 6 weeks to turn around with a business
S2: proposal to start a new business, which would be FCX,
S2: VC registry. And if it's too hard, it's too complicated
S2: or the economics aren't there, then we won't do it.
S2: But we're going to test that. So that'll the timing
S2: on that could be perfect as well.
S1: Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah. And I mean, are you getting progress?
S1: I mean, how have your conversations with these either big
S1: or small VCs going? Are you getting close to 1
S1: or 2 of them? Seeing like, this is a major
S1: problem for us. We need you and your company.
S2: Oh, I think that'll be for what we're building or
S2: what we're looking at. I think we'll know the answer
S2: to that in a month. Okay. Everybody is. Everybody has
S2: said just come in and have a look and we'll
S2: explain the problem. And if you can come up with
S2: a solution, then we would we would love that because
S2: most of those funds have secondary problems. And that's what
S2: we're seeking to solve.
S1: Yeah, that's the other issue. I mean, the reality is
S1: that many funds now are approaching the end of, you know,
S1: the early funds that is approaching the end of their
S1: ten year life. So they have to return capital. Yeah.
S1: And it's always, you know we haven't we being Felix
S1: hasn't been through this you know how you liquidate assets
S1: towards the end of the fund. But it's got to
S1: be a challenge especially now because the IPO markets are
S1: so closed. And yes, M&A is happening, but it's a
S1: little bit sticky. Yeah. You know, so it's not as
S1: quick as they want to be. So this would open
S1: up a lot of opportunities for just getting some liquidity
S1: from your your your stock assets.
S2: I suppose so, right? I think so. Yeah. Look, I
S2: think when it's up and running, when the secondary market
S2: tool is there, it will it will enable companies to
S2: have alternative on that liquidity for sure. Yeah. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. That's awesome That I mean maybe last question before
S1: we move on. I mean that IPO went. Door is
S1: is definitely shut. You know, are we seeing the green
S1: shoots of a recovery and do you think when's the
S1: window going to open? There's a question.
S2: Look, I've always said that anyone who predicts the IPO
S2: market beyond three months is either wishful or incentive driven
S2: or or delusional. I I'm a bear on the IPO
S2: market over the next 6 to 9 months because of
S2: interest rates. And I think you need a clear you
S2: need a clear signal that interest rates at very least
S2: have peaked. We haven't got that signal yet. Do you
S2: think they have? I think we're approaching peak, but I
S2: think even after that, you will need to see what
S2: the economic full economic impact is, that inflation has genuinely slowed.
S2: We could be in a position in six months time
S2: where inflation ticks up again and they start tightening again.
S1: So because it's amazing, like there's still full employment, I mean,
S1: normally within order to get inflation down, you need employment
S1: to go up. Correct. That's historically been the case. And
S1: it's just it's not budging.
S2: I think that the earliest that we will see the
S2: IPO market reopen will be after Easter next year. Interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
S1: Um, all right, look, I think that's. I mean, that's
S1: been great, Max. Thank you. And congrats. I mean, it's
S1: a it's an amazing career journey, and I can see
S1: why you didn't jump out and do this crazy thing
S1: called the startup. And it's nice to see you not
S1: in a suit. You're. You're in a t shirt. T shirt, hoodie.
S2: Yeah. Yeah.
S1: And looking a lot more relaxed. I have to say,
S1: it wasn't that you were not relaxed at ease, but
S1: you seem to be enjoying it.
S2: Having a lot of fun, Having a lot of fun
S2: with great people. Yeah, great, great board, great shareholders.
S1: That's great. Well done. Should we jump to the quickfire round?
S1: We can do that. No, we. I did send you
S1: the answers from the last one. Yes. I don't know.
S1: Have you got different answers for. I do. You do?
S2: Okay, I do.
S1: Did you remember the last ones or did you had
S1: to be reminded?
S2: I think if you'd asked me, I would have probably
S2: remembered half of them when I looked at them. Yeah,
S2: I didn't. Yeah. All right, well, listen, there were a
S2: few that I wouldn't have remembered.
S1: Well, let's rattle through it so quick. Fire around, like
S1: your favorite book.
S2: Um, you know, I'm interested in Middle Eastern affairs. There's
S2: a few Middle Eastern themes here, but Arafat by Tony
S2: Walker and Andrew Gowers, which are made of mind.
S1: Of Palestinian.
S2: Leader PLO leader. And he he might he morphed from
S2: terrorist to statesman, but it gave you incredible insights to
S2: how corrupt the PLO unfortunately is. And when you look
S2: at the dire situation that they face today, there were
S2: a lot of missed opportunities that were all driven by
S2: overthinking and and factional infighting. Yeah. So great book and
S2: and I loved it in particular because Tony Walker is
S2: an Australian AFR journalist who was the author. He was
S2: the co author. Yeah. Interesting.
S1: Yeah. Like keeping with your theme, I think the last
S1: two books were about Benjamin Franklin and Steve Jobs. Yes.
S1: So you like your Bios bios?
S2: Yeah, fiction as well. But the bios, the ones where
S2: you're you'll learn a lot. That's great.
S1: Yeah. Podcast.
S2: Well, wrapping and continuing On the other side of that theme,
S2: one I'm listening to at the moment is called Unholy
S2: to Jews on the News, and that's Janet Levy from
S2: Israel's Channel 12 and Jonathan Friedman from The Guardian. And look,
S2: they opine weekly on what's been what's happening on the
S2: ground in Israel. But at the moment, obviously, with all
S2: the challenges that the government's been having in terms of
S2: changing the Supreme Court, yeah, all those all the protests
S2: that they've been having, it's been it's been very, very
S2: insightful to just give you that critical, balanced view. Yeah.
S1: No, they are getting kicked up and down the park
S1: and that even America came out and criticized it. Yes.
S1: Kind of surprising. Yeah.
S2: News source still, The New York Times.
S1: Still The New York Times.
S2: That's unchanged.
S1: Yeah, that's good. Do you have a favorite app or
S1: a different one?
S2: Different one, probably. Again, it's a bit sort of, you know,
S2: not not particularly exciting, but RunKeeper, which is just I'm
S2: getting back into my running probably since when we did this,
S2: I've actually lost a lot of weight, so I'm trying
S2: to run only once or once or twice a week.
S2: And but so it's just that, you know, not, you know,
S2: nice track. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. And RunKeeper over Strava. Yeah.
S2: I don't know. I should try Strava. RunKeeper is just
S2: the ASICs one and I run with ASICs, so it's
S2: more about the foot track, you know, the foot tracking
S2: and all that sort of stuff. Maybe I'll try Strava.
S1: Competitive with yourself and others. Okay.
S2: And I'm not competing with anyone, so. Well, yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
S1: I mean, how's any injuries?
S2: Well, I had a I've got a lower back sort
S2: of legacy. I think it's sitting in office chairs for 20.
S2: Five years and I put on a bit of weight
S2: during Covid. So that's that was what took me off
S2: running for a little while.
S1: Yeah, I mean, running is meant to be good for you.
S1: I mean, humans are designed to run, but also to balance. Well,
S1: it also designed to die at 30. Yeah. Yeah. So
S1: now we're in our 50s. It's. It's a tough sport. Yeah.
S1: All old guys. Not that you're old of course. Productivity tool.
S2: This is a new one. This is a really interesting
S2: watch this space. It's called Empire. Okay, Empire A and this,
S2: I think is potentially revolutionary. Little business started up out
S2: of Melbourne that I came across through my FCX universe.
S2: And this is a great way, a great way of
S2: tracking everything that's going on in the office. Sales targets
S2: are internal targets, personal targets, all that sort of stuff.
S2: So yeah, yeah. Run by a great guy called Ash Brown.
S2: So watch this space on that one.
S1: And do you remember your previous answer to this one?
S1: I do, yeah. Your wife.
S2: My wife? Maddie.
S1: Yeah. Did she appreciate that? Did she ever hear. I
S1: don't think she's.
S2: Listening to the first podcast.
S1: Flag it when we're next year. Um. CEO Who's your favorite?
S2: I don't want to be too sucky here, but I
S2: am a little. I'm very, very impressed with the guy
S2: that you've all ruse who's the CEO of Digital Asset Holdings,
S2: who are our partners in New York. I have known
S2: him through ASX, but also through mainly through Israeli connections.
S2: And look, he's just one of these guys that is
S2: just go, go, go nonstop. And look, I think some
S2: of the things that went through when some of the
S2: problems that occurred with the chess project, he never lost
S2: his focus, never lost his optimism and is really, I think,
S2: built not just a phenomenal business with DA and the
S2: Daml software, but he's actually now building a global blockchain
S2: called Canton that all of the people that are using
S2: Daml will be able to connect to. So I've got
S2: to say, I'm pretty impressed by Yuval and his great company.
S1: Uh, last question. TV show. What are you.
S2: Watching? I'm just finished watching succession. So you get that?
S2: I'm sure a lot. I do get that a lot.
S2: So that's popular.
S1: I still haven't watched it.
S2: Which is great. And the one that the family love.
S2: And you know, when you've got like a 18 year
S2: old that wants to go out and do his own
S2: thing and the other ones are still in school, so
S2: they're a bit captured. Yeah, but they all love only
S2: murderers in the building which is on Disney Do No. Yeah.
S2: With Steve Martin. Yeah. So that's, that's a great one.
S1: Actually it's not the last question because there is the
S1: what what would your Ted talk be.
S2: Question tokenization of capital markets. Okay there we go.
S1: That's quite niche, but I guess relevant.
S2: Yeah, probably very niche. But we might, we might, we
S2: might fill a small room with that. Yeah. Yeah.
S1: All right, look, that's awesome. We're at time. So Max,
S1: thank you and congrats on the progress and I'm excited
S1: about what's coming both for you and I guess for
S1: the industry because I think this could be a game changer.
S1: And I think it's it's well needed. So if anyone
S1: wants to find out more, what should they do?
S2: Look, just drop me an email, Max at Mru or the.
S1: Website I suppose.
S2: Yeah, website. There's a contact box there as well. And
S2: my colleague Josh Collard as well. Josh at FCX Dot
S2: drop Josh and me a line and we'll set you up. Yeah, great. Yeah.
S1: All right. Well, thank you. We'll see you in Queenstown
S1: in a few weeks, but I look forward to it.
S1: I will let you get on with your day, but
S1: thanks for coming in and thanks everyone, for listening.
S2: Thanks And.