WEBVTT - EP 186 Stuart Dullard, Partner, Ashurt 0:00:08.480 --> 0:00:10.680 Hi, everyone. Ian here. Now on the show today we 0:00:10.680 --> 0:00:14.319 have Stuart Dullard. Stuart is a partner at global law 0:00:14.320 --> 0:00:17.439 firm Ashurst. Spaced out. Sidney, why have we got our 0:00:17.440 --> 0:00:19.840 lawyer on the show? I hear you ask. Well, look, 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:21.919 when you think of the startup ecosystem, you probably think 0:00:21.920 --> 0:00:24.800 of founders and or investors, but there's plenty of other 0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:28.400 people in the ecosystem. Lawyers are a very important part 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:32.560 of that ecosystem. Whether you're doing transaction raise capital transaction 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:37.000 to sell your business, secondary share sale, employment contract, all 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:40.920 of this stuff needs lawyers and more importantly, good lawyers. 0:00:40.920 --> 0:00:43.479 And there are not, you know, there's a few and 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:45.400 we talk about it on the episode, but there's not 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:49.080 a huge number of experienced good startup lawyers across Australia. 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:52.199 And Stuart would be classed as one of them. So 0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:53.320 I was pretty keen to get him on the show. 0:00:53.320 --> 0:00:55.840 He's been a friend of, uh, of mine and innovation 0:00:55.840 --> 0:00:58.000 Bay for quite a long time now. Had a great 0:00:58.000 --> 0:00:59.420 chat with him. So why don't we don't we jump 0:00:59.420 --> 0:01:08.220 over and hear my conversation with Stuart Dillard? All right. Welcome, everyone. 0:01:08.220 --> 0:01:10.740 I'm sitting here with Stu Dillard. Uh, Stu is a 0:01:10.740 --> 0:01:14.059 partner at Ashurst, and we are in your lovely office 0:01:14.100 --> 0:01:17.140 in Martin Place. So thanks for hosting us here today, Stu. 0:01:17.180 --> 0:01:19.180 Well, very glad to be here. A little bit nervous 0:01:19.180 --> 0:01:21.940 about lawyers. Don't often get gigs on podcasts and have 0:01:21.940 --> 0:01:23.020 to be careful about what I say. 0:01:23.100 --> 0:01:24.619 Oh, you're not gonna have to be careful with me. 0:01:24.980 --> 0:01:26.300 I was just disappointed. We were meant to be in 0:01:26.300 --> 0:01:28.940 the Prime Minister's room, and we got put in a 0:01:28.940 --> 0:01:30.900 different room. Yeah, it's still a nice room, don't get 0:01:30.900 --> 0:01:31.380 me wrong. 0:01:31.740 --> 0:01:33.940 Yeah, well, we had to sort of make you second 0:01:33.940 --> 0:01:36.179 best to the Prime Minister today, but, uh, otherwise, if 0:01:36.180 --> 0:01:37.539 we do a second one, we can. We can go 0:01:37.540 --> 0:01:38.940 to the Prime Minister's office. 0:01:38.940 --> 0:01:42.059 And it's not that the Prime Minister was a Ashurst partner. 0:01:42.100 --> 0:01:44.500 Not the one whose office this was. I think Malcolm 0:01:44.540 --> 0:01:47.340 Turnbull was at one point you mentioned, but not who was. 0:01:47.340 --> 0:01:48.340 Who was it, Bob Hawke? 0:01:48.540 --> 0:01:52.300 Yeah. So we're in the CBA building in Martin Place 0:01:52.300 --> 0:01:55.580 that I think a lot of Australians will remember. When 0:01:55.580 --> 0:01:58.200 you were a primary school student, CBA would come around 0:01:58.200 --> 0:02:00.320 and teach you the importance of savings. And they'd give 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:04.960 you this money box, which was a rectangle shaped money box. Um, 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:07.560 that was in the image of this exact building. So 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:09.320 this is a very old building that we're in in 0:02:09.320 --> 0:02:13.480 Martin Place. And because or at least since federation, um, 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:16.480 the politicians have been down in Canberra and the Prime 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:20.280 Minister's primary office, unsurprisingly, is in Canberra. But he needed 0:02:20.280 --> 0:02:22.680 an office in Sydney. And what better place than the 0:02:22.680 --> 0:02:26.880 illustrious Commonwealth Bank of Australia building in Martin Place? So yes, 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:29.520 there was a portion of this building carved out for 0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:32.280 the Prime Minister's office from, you know, early in the 0:02:32.280 --> 0:02:34.680 20th century, up until I think Bob Hawke was the 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:36.960 last one that used to occupy our office. But that 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:39.680 was well before our law firm was here. So we 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:42.120 can't claim to say that we just sublet a corner 0:02:42.120 --> 0:02:44.720 of our office to to the sitting prime minister. All right. 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:47.160 Let's move on from the Prime Minister's office. Trivia. I 0:02:47.160 --> 0:02:49.040 love it, though. That's great. Look, why don't you tell 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:51.359 us a bit more about Ashurst and maybe your role here. 0:02:51.720 --> 0:02:55.980 So, look, Ashurst is a global corporate law firm, of 0:02:55.980 --> 0:03:00.260 which there are a number. So we've got offices all 0:03:00.260 --> 0:03:03.740 around the globe. Practicing in all the parts of corporate 0:03:03.740 --> 0:03:06.980 law that that you would expect. I'm a partner, as 0:03:06.980 --> 0:03:09.899 you mentioned, in the Sydney. Office. And I think I've 0:03:09.900 --> 0:03:12.380 got the best job at the firm. So when the 0:03:12.380 --> 0:03:14.980 firm redid its strategy, as we do from time to 0:03:15.020 --> 0:03:18.700 time a little over a decade ago. We have a 0:03:18.700 --> 0:03:21.660 number of focuses, but two of the core focuses are 0:03:21.660 --> 0:03:27.780 on technology and energy transition. Um, as many large corporate 0:03:27.780 --> 0:03:30.580 law firms have, we've got a number of, of large 0:03:30.580 --> 0:03:33.620 corporate clients that are either pure play tech companies or 0:03:33.620 --> 0:03:37.340 large corporates that have got big tech, um, modernisation and 0:03:37.340 --> 0:03:40.860 expenditure budgets. But we wanted to go broader than that 0:03:40.860 --> 0:03:45.180 and we thought, look, there's a huge amount of innovation globally, uh, 0:03:45.180 --> 0:03:49.260 particularly through Australia and Asia. PAC and the managing partner 0:03:49.260 --> 0:03:52.460 was thinking, well, how do we service that section of 0:03:52.460 --> 0:03:55.760 the market And how do we get access to that 0:03:55.760 --> 0:03:58.920 section of the market? And I think the the default 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:02.480 strategy by some large corporate law firms are, well, when 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:05.800 one of these high growth innovation companies grows up and 0:04:05.800 --> 0:04:08.840 is a is a unicorn or a decacorn or worth 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:10.760 a lot of money, then we can start to service 0:04:10.760 --> 0:04:14.280 them and provide excellent, um, legal services, which many of 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:16.520 them do. But our firm took a little bit of 0:04:16.520 --> 0:04:19.440 a different approach and said we would like to partner 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:24.440 with early stage, high growth technology companies, early build a 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:28.440 long term relationship with these companies. So when some of 0:04:28.440 --> 0:04:32.800 these companies turn out to be, you know, remarkably successful, 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:35.360 we can take a small amount of pride thinking we 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:38.080 help them along the way, but also we'll have a 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:41.640 trusted advisor relationship, not just being Johnny come lately to 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:44.760 do the billion dollar IPO because they're good at billion 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:47.480 dollar IPOs, which which many of them are. And I 0:04:47.480 --> 0:04:51.200 had a small hand in devising that strategy. Um, but 0:04:51.300 --> 0:04:53.700 I'm not going to win any McKinsey Awards for strategies, 0:04:53.700 --> 0:04:57.460 because that is what what, um, most Silicon Valley law 0:04:57.460 --> 0:05:00.659 firms do. They they go in, they work, provide excellent 0:05:00.660 --> 0:05:03.979 service to these high growth companies. And then some of 0:05:03.980 --> 0:05:05.940 them turn out to be wildly successful and will have 0:05:05.940 --> 0:05:10.260 long term, um, relationships with these companies. And in terms 0:05:10.260 --> 0:05:13.980 of how we think about that from a client perspective, um, 0:05:14.260 --> 0:05:17.500 you can be a high growth startup or whatever stage 0:05:17.500 --> 0:05:19.900 you are and have a small law firm when you're small, 0:05:19.900 --> 0:05:22.420 a medium law firm when you're medium size, maybe a 0:05:22.420 --> 0:05:24.940 national law firm when you're national, and then an international 0:05:25.260 --> 0:05:27.700 law firm when you when you go above and beyond 0:05:27.740 --> 0:05:31.220 Australia or whatever your home jurisdiction is. We would like 0:05:31.220 --> 0:05:34.180 to say it might make sense to consider partnering with 0:05:34.180 --> 0:05:38.500 someone that is global from the beginning, um, and providing 0:05:38.500 --> 0:05:43.500 the best advice you can obtain from early days. And 0:05:43.500 --> 0:05:46.060 then we'll be with you the whole journey. Yeah. Um, 0:05:46.100 --> 0:05:48.500 and we, we think that we were a little bit 0:05:48.500 --> 0:05:51.640 different in in that approach. There are a couple of 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:54.960 other firms in Australia that do that, but the vast 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:55.800 majority don't. 0:05:55.960 --> 0:05:58.360 Right. So your day to day life, like just give 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:01.160 us a quick glimpse into the day in the life 0:06:01.160 --> 0:06:03.160 of Stu Dillard. Ashurst partner. 0:06:03.480 --> 0:06:06.000 Okay. Well, look, I like to get my exercise in early, 0:06:06.000 --> 0:06:08.080 so I sort of the alarm goes off or sort 0:06:08.080 --> 0:06:10.000 of something starting with a five and go for a 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:12.320 cycle or walk the dog or go to the gym. 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:15.040 And then I'm usually at the desk at home, um, 0:06:15.080 --> 0:06:18.600 from before 8:00. I like to to do my quiet 0:06:18.640 --> 0:06:21.800 thinking and delegation work early, so I very rarely will 0:06:21.800 --> 0:06:25.760 I take a meeting between 8:00 and 11. I think 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:27.760 if you're going to give a lawyer a fighting chance 0:06:27.760 --> 0:06:29.840 of doing something in the day, the least you can 0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:33.480 do is give her or him instructions before ten in 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:35.719 the morning. So I try to do that, and then 0:06:35.720 --> 0:06:38.440 usually from 11 till 5 or 6, I'll be on 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:42.200 calls or in meetings. Um, walk the dog again, as 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:45.760 he reminds me, if I forget to do that up in, uh, 0:06:45.760 --> 0:06:49.080 up in the Paddington five ways Park between 5 and 0:06:49.080 --> 0:06:51.419 6 and then, um, just get whatever needs to be 0:06:51.420 --> 0:06:53.740 done towards the end of the day. And that usually 0:06:53.740 --> 0:06:56.460 involves signing off on work that my team has done. 0:06:56.500 --> 0:06:59.260 But I mean, how active, you know, partners still do 0:06:59.260 --> 0:07:00.779 the work. I mean, that's maybe what some of the 0:07:00.779 --> 0:07:03.219 audience doesn't understand. I mean, like, you don't sit in 0:07:03.260 --> 0:07:07.060 having tea at the Ritz, handing out, uh, work to 0:07:07.060 --> 0:07:08.940 your juniors like you are actually on the tools. 0:07:08.980 --> 0:07:12.900 Yeah, yeah. Yes. In this jurisdiction, definitely. Maybe there are 0:07:12.900 --> 0:07:15.780 others where you get to play a lot more golf. Um, 0:07:15.780 --> 0:07:17.540 I'm pretty lousy at golf, so I don't need to 0:07:17.540 --> 0:07:21.260 do that, but. No, no, look, I, I would still, um. 0:07:21.860 --> 0:07:24.420 I'm not going to number the hours, but still do. 0:07:24.420 --> 0:07:28.900 The vast preponderance of my day would be, um, negotiating 0:07:28.940 --> 0:07:31.900 transactions on on calls with the other side or explaining 0:07:31.900 --> 0:07:36.460 the documents to the client, reviewing the work and signing 0:07:36.460 --> 0:07:38.860 off on it. So, yeah, look, there's definitely some going 0:07:38.860 --> 0:07:40.540 to the odd lunch. I won't lie, I do like 0:07:40.540 --> 0:07:44.100 a sushi lunch, um, down at MLC, but the vast 0:07:44.100 --> 0:07:46.800 preponderance of the day is is being on the tools 0:07:46.800 --> 0:07:51.680 which which actually suits me just fine. Um, I think, um, 0:07:51.680 --> 0:07:54.760 there's a book called The Pinstripe Prison that Lisa Perry wrote. 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:57.840 She's a she was, um, a journalist, I think, for 0:07:57.840 --> 0:08:00.520 many years with S.m.h.. She got a perfect score in 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:03.120 the school certificate and thought I'd rather than do journalism. 0:08:03.120 --> 0:08:05.800 I'll do law because I've got this perfect mark and 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:08.960 then study law. And then, um, went into a law 0:08:08.960 --> 0:08:10.840 firm because she didn't want to waste her first class 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:13.040 honours degree in law by being a journalist. She went 0:08:13.040 --> 0:08:14.440 into a law firm, and she woke up one day 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:16.400 and said, why am I a lawyer? I've always had 0:08:16.400 --> 0:08:19.320 this passion for journalism and I didn't want to waste Mark. 0:08:19.320 --> 0:08:21.760 So she wrote this brilliant book about how a lot 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:25.560 of people go into law consulting, uh, or investment banking 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:27.280 because they don't want to waste marks and they wake 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:31.200 up one day thinking, I never really wanted to do 0:08:31.360 --> 0:08:34.120 this job. I was passionate about maybe something in Stem 0:08:34.120 --> 0:08:36.800 or startups or journalism or something that required a slightly 0:08:36.800 --> 0:08:42.679 lower high school. Um, Mark. But I think I'm in the, the, um, 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:46.699 the fortunate minority that actually really love being a lawyer. Um, 0:08:46.740 --> 0:08:48.780 I really like the people I work with. I like 0:08:48.780 --> 0:08:50.900 the team, and I like being on the tools. For me, 0:08:50.900 --> 0:08:53.939 it's a little bit like, um, putting a puzzle together 0:08:53.940 --> 0:08:56.500 is getting a document right to make it elegant to 0:08:56.820 --> 0:08:58.860 to meet whatever challenge you're trying to do. 0:08:58.900 --> 0:09:01.860 And what about the mix of work? Like, how do 0:09:01.860 --> 0:09:04.620 you bucket it? I mean, it's not all fundraising. It's 0:09:04.620 --> 0:09:09.180 probably not all M&A. I mean, like, general legal, like. Yeah, 0:09:09.220 --> 0:09:12.059 give us a bit of a pie chart of your, uh, 0:09:12.059 --> 0:09:12.900 of your, uh, work. 0:09:13.340 --> 0:09:16.900 Yeah. So look, I'd say probably 60% up would be, uh, 0:09:16.900 --> 0:09:21.140 fundraising either investor side but mainly company side. Uh, and 0:09:21.140 --> 0:09:25.100 then the 40% of the remaining 100 would be 30% 0:09:25.100 --> 0:09:29.339 would be, um, M&A. So helping technology companies buy other 0:09:29.340 --> 0:09:34.420 companies run sale processes or sometimes acting for large corporates acquiring. 0:09:34.620 --> 0:09:37.579 And then I do for my sins. I run the uh, 0:09:37.580 --> 0:09:40.380 the company's technology and high growth Esop plan, which is 0:09:40.380 --> 0:09:43.610 the the most broken part of the startup legal field, 0:09:43.610 --> 0:09:47.010 and then just dealing with general inquiries from, um, from 0:09:47.050 --> 0:09:48.970 sort of high growth companies, whether they need a referral 0:09:48.970 --> 0:09:51.850 to an employment agreement, you know, to an employment partner 0:09:52.010 --> 0:09:55.810 dealing with some IP license. I don't do work that 0:09:55.809 --> 0:09:59.170 I don't specialize in, but I do, um, ride shotgun 0:09:59.170 --> 0:10:01.090 on some of those calls and just make sure that 0:10:01.090 --> 0:10:03.050 it it dovetails in with the broader strategy. 0:10:03.290 --> 0:10:05.569 And why do you say that about the Esop? 0:10:06.450 --> 0:10:10.730 I think esops are complicated in terms of law. There's 0:10:10.730 --> 0:10:14.930 securities law. There's tax law. There's payroll and state based law. 0:10:15.090 --> 0:10:19.610 And then there's the contract law. And I don't fully 0:10:19.650 --> 0:10:22.330 understand why I think most people don't understand it. But 0:10:22.330 --> 0:10:24.370 most people think I'll download something off the internet, or 0:10:24.370 --> 0:10:27.650 I'll go to one of these providers that gives it 0:10:27.650 --> 0:10:30.210 for free or as a bonus, and I just or 0:10:30.210 --> 0:10:33.250 I can get it for less than $5,000, and I 0:10:33.250 --> 0:10:35.850 don't want to spend more money if I can spend less. 0:10:36.170 --> 0:10:39.570 So as a practitioner, I would make Ten-x is probably 0:10:39.750 --> 0:10:42.990 too much, but a lot more money fixing broken esops for, 0:10:43.510 --> 0:10:47.590 you know, scale up companies that realize they've massively underinvested in, 0:10:47.590 --> 0:10:51.790 in that, um, aspect of their, um, you know, their, 0:10:51.830 --> 0:10:54.510 their services provisions and they really need to fix it 0:10:54.510 --> 0:10:58.190 because these people are critical to the business and they've 0:10:58.190 --> 0:11:01.710 maybe underinvested in that. Um, I've heard of people talk 0:11:01.710 --> 0:11:04.590 of technology debt where you don't get the best technology 0:11:04.590 --> 0:11:06.030 as part of your stack, and then later you have 0:11:06.030 --> 0:11:08.310 to pay more to, to undo it. I think the 0:11:08.309 --> 0:11:11.230 same is true for law. And when there's a fundraising 0:11:11.230 --> 0:11:13.189 on or a big sexy deal, like an M&A deal 0:11:13.190 --> 0:11:16.470 or an IPO or a fundraising round, everyone's focused on it. 0:11:16.470 --> 0:11:18.390 They're happy to get it done right. People have got 0:11:18.390 --> 0:11:21.150 an appreciation of making sure that the terms are correct, 0:11:21.230 --> 0:11:25.790 but maybe esops are seen as compliance and boring and, 0:11:25.830 --> 0:11:27.670 you know, just spend as little on it as possible 0:11:27.670 --> 0:11:28.950 and hopefully it works. 0:11:29.350 --> 0:11:31.270 And any horror stories you can share? I mean, you 0:11:31.270 --> 0:11:33.430 can obviously change the names to protect the innocent, but 0:11:33.470 --> 0:11:38.010 I mean, any, uh, bad legal agreements that you've seen 0:11:38.010 --> 0:11:39.970 done that ended up with terrible consequences. 0:11:41.250 --> 0:11:44.890 Look, I won't name names, but, um, on the bad side, 0:11:44.890 --> 0:11:50.730 I would say 8,090% are either not flawed drafting, but 0:11:50.730 --> 0:11:54.090 just don't meet the tax concession that they're aimed for 0:11:54.090 --> 0:11:57.890 and probably don't meet the securities laws concession. So a 0:11:57.890 --> 0:12:00.250 bunch of staff have got hundreds of thousands or millions 0:12:00.250 --> 0:12:06.050 of dollars worth of stock and at best, ambiguous tax consequences. Um, 0:12:06.050 --> 0:12:10.290 but on the flip side, uh, when you get it right, um, 0:12:10.330 --> 0:12:13.290 you know, I've worked on deals where we've structured esops 0:12:13.290 --> 0:12:16.530 at the start and we've got the the best available 0:12:16.530 --> 0:12:19.809 tax concession that's legitimately on offer to these startups and 0:12:19.809 --> 0:12:22.530 dealt with IPOs where there's, you know, north of 300 0:12:22.530 --> 0:12:26.130 million in the startup pool. And it's been, you know, 0:12:26.170 --> 0:12:30.770 really rewarding to see an entire management team, um, be 0:12:30.770 --> 0:12:34.290 rewarded for, you know, jumping into a really risky venture 0:12:34.290 --> 0:12:38.709 early doors and having a life changing payoff. So when 0:12:38.710 --> 0:12:41.310 it goes right, it can go really right. But when 0:12:41.309 --> 0:12:44.069 it goes wrong, um, I guess the same is true 0:12:44.070 --> 0:12:47.750 on the flip side. And I think it's a good, um, 0:12:47.790 --> 0:12:49.990 sort of trend that we're seeing out of the US. 0:12:49.990 --> 0:12:53.870 In the US, there are all these cohorts, um, you know, 0:12:53.910 --> 0:12:57.230 you can start really early with the PayPal Mafia. And 0:12:57.230 --> 0:12:58.830 even if you look at the number of startups that 0:12:58.830 --> 0:13:02.030 have been funded out of the snowflake IPO, um, where 0:13:02.429 --> 0:13:07.390 you've got not just tech founders, but, um, you know, 0:13:07.429 --> 0:13:10.110 executives have gone into startups that have been, you know, 0:13:10.150 --> 0:13:13.070 really successful. There's been a liquidity event and a huge 0:13:13.070 --> 0:13:17.670 amount of that capital and expertise is recycled into the 0:13:17.710 --> 0:13:20.830 into the startup ecosystem. So I think apart from just 0:13:20.830 --> 0:13:22.790 I'm a lawyer and I, you know, generally like to 0:13:22.790 --> 0:13:25.350 get things right. I think it's a really important part 0:13:25.350 --> 0:13:27.630 of the ecosystem. And you have to give a shout 0:13:27.670 --> 0:13:30.710 out to the Tech Council of Australia here. Um, that 0:13:30.710 --> 0:13:34.170 did some successful lobbying in reforming the Reforming the way 0:13:34.170 --> 0:13:36.770 that at least the securities laws dovetailed in with the 0:13:36.770 --> 0:13:38.530 tax laws. I did, you know, bits and pieces of 0:13:38.530 --> 0:13:41.210 them and then worked with ASIC on the exposure draft 0:13:41.210 --> 0:13:46.930 of that legislation to basically make Esop far more widely 0:13:46.929 --> 0:13:50.329 available to staff. And for those staff that did receive Esop, 0:13:50.370 --> 0:13:53.130 far more generous in terms of the awards they've gotten. 0:13:53.130 --> 0:13:56.090 So the frameworks there in terms of tax and securities law, 0:13:56.570 --> 0:13:58.449 it's just now a matter of getting people to be 0:13:59.370 --> 0:14:00.370 to take advantage of it. 0:14:00.410 --> 0:14:04.170 Yeah. Different question Stu. I mean, I've known you for 0:14:04.210 --> 0:14:05.969 a few years now, but I don't think I've ever 0:14:05.970 --> 0:14:08.050 asked you this. But why do you love startups? 0:14:09.130 --> 0:14:12.290 Yeah. Look, it's a question that I don't reflect on, um, 0:14:12.570 --> 0:14:15.650 too much. And I thought you might ask that prior 0:14:15.650 --> 0:14:21.170 to today. So I did some, um, reflection before before the, 0:14:21.170 --> 0:14:25.090 the podcast. And I think I grew up with really 0:14:25.090 --> 0:14:29.890 entrepreneurial parents. They weren't or maybe they were high-growth technology 0:14:29.890 --> 0:14:31.810 companies when I was born, but but not not certainly 0:14:31.950 --> 0:14:34.630 not the the volume of them. So my parents owned 0:14:34.630 --> 0:14:37.630 a bunch of small businesses. They'd either start it themselves 0:14:37.630 --> 0:14:40.510 or buy it and develop it and turn it around. 0:14:40.510 --> 0:14:43.310 And that was just the environment that that I grew 0:14:43.310 --> 0:14:45.950 up in. So from when I was born until when 0:14:45.950 --> 0:14:49.790 I finished high school, that's what they did. Um, but 0:14:49.790 --> 0:14:52.830 rather than encouraging me to go straight into a startup 0:14:52.830 --> 0:14:56.070 or even the family business at the time, they they 0:14:56.070 --> 0:14:59.350 sort of encouraged me to work smarter, not harder. Um, 0:14:59.470 --> 0:15:02.190 maybe I've hit 50% of that, but time will tell. 0:15:02.550 --> 0:15:04.830 So they really encouraged me just to go to university, 0:15:04.870 --> 0:15:08.270 indulge as much as I can, um, at university, and 0:15:08.270 --> 0:15:10.870 then take a take a career decision after that. So 0:15:10.870 --> 0:15:15.070 I studied, um, some economics and finance and as well 0:15:15.150 --> 0:15:17.990 as law and then did did a summer internship at 0:15:17.990 --> 0:15:20.990 this firm and then did a summer internship at Macquarie Bank. 0:15:20.990 --> 0:15:23.510 So I was always sort of had that, um, sitting 0:15:23.510 --> 0:15:25.230 on the fence. Do I go into investment banking or 0:15:25.230 --> 0:15:28.150 do I go into law? And when I took the 0:15:28.150 --> 0:15:30.890 decision to, to go into law, I ended up focusing 0:15:30.890 --> 0:15:34.210 on on corporate law and as a junior lawyer in 0:15:34.210 --> 0:15:36.850 a global firm, when I was there, you pretty much 0:15:36.850 --> 0:15:40.450 just did big ticket M&A or capital markets or IPOs 0:15:40.490 --> 0:15:43.650 and rights issues, particularly in the wake of the global 0:15:43.650 --> 0:15:47.930 financial crisis. I trained on on all that really exciting stuff. 0:15:48.570 --> 0:15:50.730 And then as a number of lawyers, do you go 0:15:50.730 --> 0:15:52.610 across to the UK? I did that a bit later 0:15:52.610 --> 0:15:55.970 than most because my two year minimum experience sort of 0:15:56.010 --> 0:16:00.650 expired in 2008, which was when London was firing, not hiring. 0:16:00.650 --> 0:16:03.490 So I went a little bit after that. Um, and 0:16:03.490 --> 0:16:06.450 when I was in London, I had the, the experience 0:16:06.450 --> 0:16:09.730 of working on some, but also on a bunch of 0:16:09.730 --> 0:16:15.090 strategic investment for General Electric into founder led medical device 0:16:15.090 --> 0:16:18.130 and technology businesses. So that was injecting capital in return 0:16:18.130 --> 0:16:21.890 for shares to fund businesses throughout Europe and then often 0:16:21.890 --> 0:16:26.170 to partner with GE for distribution. But it was interfacing 0:16:26.610 --> 0:16:31.070 with founder led technology companies. Um, every day. And you 0:16:31.070 --> 0:16:33.430 had to be good on the tools for that, as 0:16:33.430 --> 0:16:36.750 most lawyers do. But you also had to have respect 0:16:36.750 --> 0:16:40.790 and empathy in the way that you communicated the deals 0:16:40.790 --> 0:16:44.870 and negotiated, because these were much like technology companies like, 0:16:44.910 --> 0:16:48.070 you know, you're dealing with. And these were highly technical, 0:16:48.070 --> 0:16:52.110 highly proficient founders that had put 20, 30, 40 years 0:16:52.110 --> 0:16:55.550 into their technology. So it was really like you were 0:16:55.590 --> 0:16:58.270 sort of, you know, trying to invest in their baby. Uh, 0:16:58.270 --> 0:17:01.750 and then I came back to Australia in 2015. Um, 0:17:01.790 --> 0:17:05.709 and that was really when VC 2.0 was going. I 0:17:05.710 --> 0:17:09.109 was a junior partner, which had no, no clients to 0:17:09.109 --> 0:17:12.429 call my own. So I started to to work in 0:17:12.470 --> 0:17:15.230 that sphere and to answer the question perhaps a little 0:17:15.270 --> 0:17:17.709 bit more directly, what I loved about it was I 0:17:17.710 --> 0:17:19.830 got to work for people, and I got to work 0:17:19.830 --> 0:17:24.830 directly with, um, the founder and at a really important 0:17:24.830 --> 0:17:28.369 time in their their business when they needed to raise capital, 0:17:28.690 --> 0:17:30.930 and I had the great privilege of doing a number 0:17:30.930 --> 0:17:33.090 of deals and they would only, you know, most founders 0:17:33.090 --> 0:17:35.850 do a deal fundraising every one, 2 or 3 years, 0:17:35.850 --> 0:17:38.170 depending on the size of the raise and the cash burn. 0:17:38.570 --> 0:17:41.770 So I really had a sense of fulfillment that these 0:17:41.770 --> 0:17:44.650 were people that really needed good advice and needed someone 0:17:44.650 --> 0:17:48.570 good and hardworking and proficient in their corner. And then 0:17:48.570 --> 0:17:49.770 when you get to the end of a deal and 0:17:49.770 --> 0:17:52.890 they say, oh, gee, you know, I'm glad I didn't, 0:17:52.930 --> 0:17:54.530 you know, do that without you or I was so 0:17:54.530 --> 0:17:57.330 glad to have you by your side. It's it's a 0:17:57.330 --> 0:18:03.050 really fulfilling, you know, role to perform and look, other 0:18:03.050 --> 0:18:07.169 clients are also great, but often they're well resourced. They 0:18:07.170 --> 0:18:10.690 may have an internal legal team. You're providing specialist skills 0:18:10.690 --> 0:18:14.929 or additional resource to complete a large transaction. But I 0:18:14.930 --> 0:18:18.370 think when you're acting for high growth technology companies that 0:18:18.369 --> 0:18:20.770 are founder led, you can hang up the boots at 0:18:20.770 --> 0:18:23.250 the end of the day and thought, look, you know, 0:18:23.250 --> 0:18:26.429 I've made a big difference to the transaction and hopefully 0:18:26.430 --> 0:18:31.149 a small positive difference to the trajectory of this, this company. 0:18:31.270 --> 0:18:33.550 And if you've only got a relatively short time on 0:18:33.550 --> 0:18:36.510 this planet and a relatively short time to in your 0:18:36.510 --> 0:18:38.550 professional life, I think you want to be doing it 0:18:38.550 --> 0:18:41.869 to assist people that are building companies to make a 0:18:41.869 --> 0:18:44.270 better tomorrow, which again, which is why our focus is 0:18:44.270 --> 0:18:47.790 on high growth technology companies with a with a perhaps 0:18:47.790 --> 0:18:49.669 a over indexation on energy transition. 0:18:50.109 --> 0:18:52.430 You know, but the reality is and you've seen this, 0:18:52.470 --> 0:18:55.390 especially with ten years of working with these people, there's 0:18:55.390 --> 0:18:57.510 a lot of rough with the smooth. I mean, like 0:18:57.550 --> 0:19:01.870 the startup journey can be fantastic, right? Hopefully more time 0:19:01.869 --> 0:19:04.150 than not. But also it can be brutal. I mean, 0:19:04.150 --> 0:19:06.189 you must have seen funding deals fall apart in the 0:19:06.190 --> 0:19:08.710 last minute and, you know, the person's house or marriage 0:19:08.710 --> 0:19:11.470 or whatever is on the line because of it. I mean, 0:19:11.470 --> 0:19:14.870 any reflections on on the brutality of startup life? 0:19:15.390 --> 0:19:21.190 I think the brutality of startup life for founders, um, 0:19:21.230 --> 0:19:24.410 is largely an untold story. There's lots of really good 0:19:24.410 --> 0:19:28.490 press about. IPOs and sales and exits and funding rounds 0:19:28.490 --> 0:19:30.290 and new products. And that's great. It should be celebrated. 0:19:30.290 --> 0:19:34.090 It should be reported on. And it's good news, but I. 0:19:34.130 --> 0:19:36.729 I've lost count of the times I've been sitting with 0:19:36.730 --> 0:19:40.850 a founder. Just hopefully. Getting a deal over the line 0:19:40.850 --> 0:19:44.210 and just saying to them people wouldn't believe. How hard 0:19:44.210 --> 0:19:46.410 this was if you told them, if you wrote this 0:19:46.410 --> 0:19:49.770 as a book. People would just think it was fiction. Um, 0:19:49.770 --> 0:19:52.889 and the amount of risk that these people take, the 0:19:52.890 --> 0:19:55.770 amount of energy that goes into it, the stress that 0:19:55.770 --> 0:19:58.129 comes with the risk and the energy putting into it, 0:19:58.250 --> 0:20:00.610 and they're risking their career. They're risking sort of their, 0:20:00.650 --> 0:20:04.010 their family's livelihood. And I think when we went through 0:20:04.050 --> 0:20:07.689 probably the first cycle of venture capital, there was a 0:20:07.690 --> 0:20:09.330 lot of good intention, there was a lot of funding 0:20:09.330 --> 0:20:11.570 out there, and a lot of really smart people moved 0:20:11.570 --> 0:20:14.770 in to the industry for all the right reasons. Um, 0:20:14.770 --> 0:20:17.330 but then I think some of the harsh realities of 0:20:17.369 --> 0:20:21.870 third party financing hit home when some tougher decisions were made. 0:20:22.070 --> 0:20:24.230 And that's sort of when, um, when it came home 0:20:24.230 --> 0:20:27.590 to roost that, you know, not every startup will have 0:20:28.070 --> 0:20:30.550 a happy ending, but, um, I think it's a great 0:20:30.550 --> 0:20:33.590 privilege to to work and be in the corner of 0:20:33.630 --> 0:20:35.750 some of these founders and say, look, don't don't worry 0:20:35.750 --> 0:20:38.030 about this. There's four different ways we can cut it. 0:20:38.030 --> 0:20:42.270 Let's go and try. And, you know, some feedback I've 0:20:42.270 --> 0:20:44.030 had over the years is like, we don't get why 0:20:44.030 --> 0:20:46.670 you're so invested in this process. You're sort of a 0:20:46.670 --> 0:20:50.510 third party service provider. But for for me and the team, 0:20:50.510 --> 0:20:55.110 we really feel, um, that stress and that angst, um, 0:20:55.150 --> 0:20:58.030 you know, and try to move mountains to, to get 0:20:58.030 --> 0:20:58.830 the right result. 0:20:58.869 --> 0:21:02.350 Yeah. No, I'm seeing here I haven't had many lawyers 0:21:02.350 --> 0:21:04.750 in the podcast. Now, that's maybe not true because a 0:21:04.750 --> 0:21:07.310 bunch of the VCs are lawyers. And that's a separate 0:21:07.310 --> 0:21:10.229 question from why so many lawyers become VCs. But one 0:21:10.230 --> 0:21:12.550 of the few lawyers that has been on as a 0:21:12.550 --> 0:21:17.590 lawyer was Peter Dunn from HSF Herbert Smith Freehills. Um, 0:21:18.490 --> 0:21:20.530 And I know you did some homework at the weekend 0:21:20.530 --> 0:21:23.209 and listen to that. So I mean, any reflections on that. 0:21:23.210 --> 0:21:25.170 And Peter, I mean, you used to work together and 0:21:25.170 --> 0:21:27.530 you're the second lawyer in the show. So, you know, 0:21:27.690 --> 0:21:29.929 there's a question in there, but just some maybe reflections 0:21:29.970 --> 0:21:32.490 and lack of lawyers in the show and Peter Dunn. 0:21:32.810 --> 0:21:35.450 Yeah, yeah. Look, um, Peter would hate me saying this, 0:21:35.450 --> 0:21:38.490 but to the extent to which, uh, lawyers can be legends, 0:21:38.490 --> 0:21:41.610 he's definitely one of them, particularly in in venture capital 0:21:42.010 --> 0:21:45.850 in Australia. Um, we didn't work together as such at 0:21:45.850 --> 0:21:49.930 the same firm. Um, Peter, like me, did a few 0:21:49.930 --> 0:21:52.770 years in London and Peter, like me, did those two 0:21:52.770 --> 0:21:56.770 years at Ashurst prior to, um, when the legacy firm 0:21:56.770 --> 0:21:59.369 of Ashurst, Blake, Dawson, Waldron merged with Asher. So we 0:21:59.369 --> 0:22:02.810 were different firms at the time, and, um, Peter's got 0:22:02.810 --> 0:22:08.810 a few years on me. So he was, um, acting for, um, 0:22:08.850 --> 0:22:11.530 Atlassian and the founders there, and then then their successful 0:22:11.530 --> 0:22:14.130 family offices while I was still over in London when 0:22:14.130 --> 0:22:17.949 I came back, um, I, you know, made an attempt 0:22:17.950 --> 0:22:22.030 to to start in this industry in 2015 and had 0:22:22.030 --> 0:22:24.550 the good fortune of being on the other side of 0:22:24.550 --> 0:22:27.550 Peter on a number of deals. Uh, it was very 0:22:27.550 --> 0:22:30.310 easy to, to like Peter. There's a lot of good 0:22:30.310 --> 0:22:34.350 lawyers in this country, like Australia, produces a huge number 0:22:34.350 --> 0:22:38.790 of excellent lawyers, and unfortunately, are not an equal amount 0:22:38.790 --> 0:22:41.630 of fantastic people within that same cohort. So I think 0:22:41.710 --> 0:22:43.710 what one of the reasons that that Peter is so good, 0:22:43.710 --> 0:22:47.910 in addition to being technically, um, sound, is he's just 0:22:47.910 --> 0:22:50.910 a terrific person. He's good to deal with, with clients. 0:22:50.910 --> 0:22:53.830 He's good to deal with from the other side. People 0:22:54.470 --> 0:22:57.790 like him almost universally. I'm not aware of a an 0:22:57.790 --> 0:23:00.830 outlier there, and I certainly did. And he was very 0:23:00.830 --> 0:23:03.430 good to me to deal with as a junior partner. 0:23:03.590 --> 0:23:06.030 When there were conflicts that arose. He'd he'd refer them 0:23:06.030 --> 0:23:09.710 to me because I think he knew there'd be consistency on, 0:23:09.710 --> 0:23:14.150 on the other side. So I, you know, oh, no 0:23:14.150 --> 0:23:17.010 small amount of the success that I've had in the 0:23:17.010 --> 0:23:20.290 last decade of practicing adventure to him, and he's just 0:23:20.290 --> 0:23:22.090 been a really good exemplar, I think, for a number 0:23:22.090 --> 0:23:23.530 of other practitioners in the space. 0:23:23.570 --> 0:23:26.129 Yeah, great. I mean, how big is the pool of 0:23:26.170 --> 0:23:29.290 good lawyers who can do sort of start up transactions 0:23:29.290 --> 0:23:32.449 in Australia? I mean, is it a dozen? Is it 20? 0:23:32.490 --> 0:23:34.970 You don't have to name them, obviously. Apart from. No. 0:23:35.010 --> 0:23:36.370 Look I think and Peter Dunn. 0:23:36.530 --> 0:23:40.170 No. Look. And I think Peter's Peter's now, um, we 0:23:40.210 --> 0:23:42.730 call it a promotion. I think I need to look 0:23:42.730 --> 0:23:45.449 up LinkedIn for his official title. I think he's I. 0:23:45.450 --> 0:23:46.330 Think general counsel. 0:23:46.330 --> 0:23:50.050 Is general counsel and head of corporate development at Safetyculture. 0:23:50.050 --> 0:23:52.530 I think I think it's it's impressive. 0:23:52.570 --> 0:23:54.490 Whatever it was a couple of years ago, I think 0:23:54.490 --> 0:23:55.169 it jumped out. 0:23:55.210 --> 0:23:58.730 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I um, I, you know, in theme 0:23:58.730 --> 0:24:00.530 with him being a terrifically good bloke, he invited me 0:24:00.530 --> 0:24:03.530 into the offices and showed me around and had lunch. Nice. 0:24:03.570 --> 0:24:05.770 Last month. So that was, that was good. But in 0:24:05.770 --> 0:24:08.649 terms of the the lawyers in Australia, look, there's look, 0:24:08.650 --> 0:24:12.209 there's lots of really good lawyers. But I think to 0:24:12.250 --> 0:24:15.150 answer a slightly different question how many lawyers are there 0:24:15.150 --> 0:24:18.149 in Australia that are focused on venture and have a 0:24:18.150 --> 0:24:23.310 full time practice in it? I would say, um, there's 0:24:23.350 --> 0:24:28.389 probably fewer than half a dozen. Um, really? Yeah. Yeah. So, um. 0:24:28.710 --> 0:24:29.950 How many of them are in Sydney? 0:24:31.630 --> 0:24:33.470 There's, there's two firms in Sydney and then one in 0:24:33.470 --> 0:24:36.280 Sydney and Melbourne. So I think, you know, um, 5. 0:24:36.280 --> 0:24:36.869 Or 6. 0:24:37.150 --> 0:24:41.270 Roughly. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, we practice, you know, um, 0:24:41.310 --> 0:24:43.470 all over the place. So there's, um, Simon and Dan 0:24:43.470 --> 0:24:47.669 at Kendall Gates, who are also just terrifically good people. Um, 0:24:47.670 --> 0:24:50.350 there's Avery Gilbert and Tobin, who started up doing some 0:24:50.350 --> 0:24:54.350 work on the investment side, and there's Elizabeth and Claire, um, 0:24:54.350 --> 0:24:57.310 at Freehills, which is, which is Peter's old firm, and 0:24:57.310 --> 0:25:00.550 they've all got, um, they're all great practitioners, all good people, 0:25:00.790 --> 0:25:03.590 all practicing full time. But then after after that, it 0:25:03.630 --> 0:25:06.869 kind of it's it's it's varied. 0:25:16.930 --> 0:25:19.530 Let's take a bit more of a macro position. Like 0:25:19.570 --> 0:25:22.690 when the climate we're just coming to the end of 2024, 0:25:22.690 --> 0:25:25.250 if you're listening to this later and it's been a 0:25:25.250 --> 0:25:27.369 tough few years, I mean, there has been a lack 0:25:27.369 --> 0:25:30.729 of liquidity. The economic climate has been hard. Inflation has 0:25:30.730 --> 0:25:34.729 been high. Interest rates are high. There's been some geopolitical risks. 0:25:34.730 --> 0:25:37.409 There's been some US election uncertainty. I mean, most a 0:25:37.410 --> 0:25:40.129 lot of that I mean the US election is kind 0:25:40.130 --> 0:25:42.369 of at least not uncertain. We're not going to have 0:25:42.410 --> 0:25:45.850 an insurrection, I don't think, in January. I mean, how 0:25:46.050 --> 0:25:48.810 are you and the firm thinking about the next year 0:25:48.810 --> 0:25:51.810 or two from that macroeconomic perspective? 0:25:52.650 --> 0:25:55.170 Look, I think I think we're hopeful and I can't 0:25:55.170 --> 0:25:59.050 speak universally for the firm, but at least from a 0:25:59.050 --> 0:26:05.050 macro Australian perspective, I'd be optimistic that we're through some 0:26:05.090 --> 0:26:08.410 of the worst of it. Um, you know, interest rates 0:26:08.590 --> 0:26:12.230 now at least seem to be stabilizing. If you look 0:26:12.230 --> 0:26:14.990 at the forward yield curve, you know the math will 0:26:14.990 --> 0:26:18.550 tell you there's more chance of an interest rate drop, um, 0:26:18.550 --> 0:26:22.830 than an increase, which would provide some relief and perhaps, um, 0:26:22.830 --> 0:26:29.310 some optimism, I think, for the Australian startup ecosystem. What 0:26:29.310 --> 0:26:31.710 I would look to as well and cut through benches 0:26:31.710 --> 0:26:35.350 do an outstanding job of this. And there's some other 0:26:35.350 --> 0:26:39.070 data out there as well is that there's I think, 0:26:39.230 --> 0:26:46.590 you know, probably since 2015, there's been a larger alternatives allocation, um, 0:26:46.630 --> 0:26:52.990 from super and high net wealth into venture funding. Um, 0:26:52.990 --> 0:26:56.149 so previously I think alternatives was private equity and some 0:26:56.150 --> 0:26:59.870 infrastructure asset funds, and there's been an increasing amount of 0:26:59.869 --> 0:27:03.790 capital flowing into venture as part of that alternatives allocation. 0:27:03.790 --> 0:27:08.170 And so long as there's funding flowing into the top 0:27:08.170 --> 0:27:12.370 of the funnel of the the venture capital cycle. Then 0:27:12.369 --> 0:27:14.570 there will still be venture capital funds out there that 0:27:14.570 --> 0:27:18.050 are well funded. Those venture capital funds will work day 0:27:18.050 --> 0:27:20.649 and night to find good opportunities, and if there's funding 0:27:20.650 --> 0:27:23.369 for good opportunities, there will still be an incentive for 0:27:23.369 --> 0:27:25.810 the individual to go out there and take a punt 0:27:25.810 --> 0:27:29.010 to to leave their high profile job and take the 0:27:29.010 --> 0:27:32.609 plunge into starting a startup. So I think there's a 0:27:32.609 --> 0:27:38.010 robustness to the Australian ecosystem from that perspective, because they're 0:27:38.010 --> 0:27:41.890 still sizable capital flowing into the top of the funnel. 0:27:42.490 --> 0:27:45.770 Perhaps a more micro level, I think obviously, you know, 0:27:46.090 --> 0:27:50.169 2022 was just brutal, like really, really tough year. I 0:27:50.170 --> 0:27:56.090 think 2023, we started to see that stabilise. Q4 2023 0:27:56.130 --> 0:27:58.170 I think I did half a dozen rounds of more 0:27:58.170 --> 0:28:01.169 than 25 million just off the top of my head. 0:28:01.570 --> 0:28:04.170 And then we're at now the back end of 2024. 0:28:04.490 --> 0:28:07.960 And we're still we're seeing, you know, doing 3 or 0:28:07.960 --> 0:28:10.870 4 rounds with us investors leading and another 3 or 0:28:10.869 --> 0:28:15.470 4 with US investors participating. I'm seeing Co-sell. So co-sell 0:28:15.550 --> 0:28:19.510 co-investment from some of the super funds with, um, some 0:28:19.510 --> 0:28:23.510 of the larger venture funds. A good diversity of of 0:28:23.510 --> 0:28:26.390 funding across the spectrum. So still working on a bunch 0:28:26.390 --> 0:28:29.190 of pre-seed rounds of one and 2 million. Still working 0:28:29.190 --> 0:28:31.629 on a bunch of seed rounds. But we are still 0:28:31.630 --> 0:28:34.790 seeing we are now seeing founders come out doing series A, 0:28:34.830 --> 0:28:38.510 series B rounds of 20 to 50 million, where 18 0:28:38.510 --> 0:28:42.590 months ago, the markets were so low that no rational 0:28:42.590 --> 0:28:44.790 founder would put their head out and raise such a 0:28:44.790 --> 0:28:47.990 large amount of capital when valuations were so depressed. To 0:28:47.990 --> 0:28:50.510 the extent to which listed capital markets are a leading 0:28:50.510 --> 0:28:54.670 indicator of private market valuations. We're seeing, you know, obviously 0:28:54.670 --> 0:28:57.870 the the rebound of tech valuations in the US and 0:28:57.870 --> 0:29:02.630 Australia since 2022. So where that gets me is I think, 0:29:02.670 --> 0:29:05.180 you know, perhaps there was a little bit too much 0:29:05.180 --> 0:29:09.540 heat in the market in 2122. Really, it came off 0:29:09.540 --> 0:29:13.780 a lot. 23 was rebalancing. And, you know, my take 0:29:13.820 --> 0:29:18.220 would be 2024 seems to have been reverted. So there's 0:29:18.220 --> 0:29:21.060 good funding conditions out there for good companies. The eco 0:29:21.060 --> 0:29:23.900 system is getting older. So there are some genuine scale 0:29:23.940 --> 0:29:26.420 up companies and there's good competition for those. And are you. 0:29:26.460 --> 0:29:30.100 Getting any mandates or any potential mandates for IPO work. 0:29:31.940 --> 0:29:35.540 Not not a huge amount. There, there. There's a number 0:29:35.540 --> 0:29:40.660 of IPOs in the pipeline. The majority of those have 0:29:40.660 --> 0:29:44.740 been backed up and are not high growth technology companies. 0:29:44.780 --> 0:29:48.580 The last IPO I worked on that met that criteria, um, 0:29:48.580 --> 0:29:51.820 was the judo bank IPO, which was sort of, I 0:29:51.820 --> 0:29:54.740 guess Q3, Q4 2021. Right. 0:29:54.780 --> 0:29:57.100 Yeah. God, that feels like a long time ago, doesn't it? 0:29:57.180 --> 0:30:00.360 Yeah. It was interesting doing a, you know what, $2.6 0:30:00.360 --> 0:30:03.920 $6 billion IPO from lockdown with, you know, for joint 0:30:03.920 --> 0:30:07.720 lead managers with, you know, umpteenth zoom and and teams 0:30:07.720 --> 0:30:09.800 call with the Brady Bunch cubes there. 0:30:09.840 --> 0:30:13.640 Yeah. And what about secondaries. I mean can we be 0:30:13.680 --> 0:30:15.680 talking about that as a trend. I mean we've seen 0:30:15.680 --> 0:30:18.880 a little bit more activity I suppose recently, but. Yeah. 0:30:18.920 --> 0:30:21.240 How much are you seeing that secondaries world. 0:30:21.280 --> 0:30:26.840 Uh, I would say. Most of the deals I'm doing 0:30:27.240 --> 0:30:30.840 north of $20 million have a small secondary component. So 0:30:30.840 --> 0:30:31.280 I think. 0:30:31.280 --> 0:30:33.360 The mostly for the founder. 0:30:33.400 --> 0:30:37.960 Mostly for the founder. Angels. Yeah, mostly for the founders. Um, 0:30:37.960 --> 0:30:42.120 and and sometimes for the angels. I'm doing rounds with 0:30:42.120 --> 0:30:44.080 all of those at the moment. And what we're seeing 0:30:44.080 --> 0:30:46.320 is some of the angels are coming up to the 0:30:46.320 --> 0:30:50.320 end of their, um, ten, ten year early stage innovation 0:30:50.680 --> 0:30:55.360 concession period, which is the the CGT ten year holiday. Um, 0:30:55.360 --> 0:30:57.280 so we are seeing some angels agitate for that. 0:30:57.560 --> 0:30:59.780 So if you don't sell within that ten years, then 0:30:59.780 --> 0:31:01.940 it's null and void. Is that right? 0:31:02.580 --> 0:31:04.340 No. I think if you sell within that ten years, 0:31:04.340 --> 0:31:07.100 you've got the holiday. I'm not a tax expert, but 0:31:07.100 --> 0:31:10.340 my casual understanding is that you just look and reset 0:31:10.340 --> 0:31:11.900 the cost base of the ten years. So if you 0:31:12.180 --> 0:31:14.780 bought a share ten years ago for a dollar, and 0:31:14.780 --> 0:31:19.620 then today it's worth $10 and your ten year holiday expires, 0:31:19.740 --> 0:31:21.860 then the value of that share is taken to $10. 0:31:21.860 --> 0:31:23.820 And if you sold it for $12, then your capital 0:31:23.820 --> 0:31:27.700 gain would be two, not 11. Got it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. 0:31:27.740 --> 0:31:30.460 That sounds. But do do do seek tax advice from 0:31:30.460 --> 0:31:33.820 your own qualified practitioner, not some bootleg corporate lawyer. 0:31:33.860 --> 0:31:37.700 Yeah. Uh, and the appropriateness. I mean, like, in the 0:31:37.740 --> 0:31:40.820 old days, people were, you know, funders or new funders 0:31:40.820 --> 0:31:44.460 in particular were kind of thought giving away secondaries to 0:31:44.780 --> 0:31:47.180 founders was not a good thing to do. I mean, 0:31:47.180 --> 0:31:49.580 I'm certainly not of that opinion, but, you know, this 0:31:49.580 --> 0:31:51.300 is maybe an opinion piece, but I mean, do you 0:31:51.300 --> 0:31:53.060 think taking money off the table is the right thing 0:31:53.060 --> 0:31:54.500 to do for a later stage founder? 0:31:55.060 --> 0:32:01.080 I think taking some money off the off the table, um, is, 0:32:01.120 --> 0:32:05.360 you know, perfectly defensible for a founder. Um, it's usually coming, 0:32:05.960 --> 0:32:08.280 goodness me, sort of five, six, seven years into the 0:32:08.280 --> 0:32:11.200 journey for the vast preponderance of the ones I'm seeing, 0:32:11.200 --> 0:32:14.320 it's 1 or $2 million, which is, I don't know 0:32:14.320 --> 0:32:16.600 what the median house price in Sydney is, but it's 0:32:16.600 --> 0:32:18.920 not like they're buying an island and playing golf three 0:32:18.920 --> 0:32:23.280 days a week. It's probably that they've been on a 0:32:23.280 --> 0:32:29.560 drastically below market, um, salary for half a decade. And 0:32:29.560 --> 0:32:32.320 they're taking, you know, a million, million and a half, 0:32:32.360 --> 0:32:35.239 maybe $2 million off the table to retire debt on 0:32:35.240 --> 0:32:38.280 their primary residence or buy a house. By now, they 0:32:38.280 --> 0:32:40.640 might have a couple of kids that they're looking for, 0:32:41.800 --> 0:32:45.400 a second or third bedroom and, you know, a small backyard. 0:32:45.600 --> 0:32:49.040 It's it's I haven't seen anyone, you know, take off 0:32:49.040 --> 0:32:53.600 retirement level money. And when I see the support of 0:32:54.560 --> 0:32:57.140 the venture community. By that I mean the the venture 0:32:57.140 --> 0:33:00.660 capital investors. They're broadly supportive of that. So the company's 0:33:00.660 --> 0:33:03.860 gone from nothing to being worth $100 million or more. 0:33:04.100 --> 0:33:06.460 And the founders are taking, you know, 1 or $2 0:33:06.460 --> 0:33:09.260 million off the table each after, you know, four or 0:33:09.260 --> 0:33:12.300 5 or 6 years. Um, I think that's just fine. 0:33:12.300 --> 0:33:15.700 And it's always nice when the rounds oversubscribed and the 0:33:15.700 --> 0:33:18.260 company's got enough money and there's investors wanting more money 0:33:18.260 --> 0:33:21.620 than it's available. Yeah. So providing some liquidity to the 0:33:21.620 --> 0:33:26.140 founders and to the early stage investors and and potentially, um, 0:33:26.180 --> 0:33:29.620 the Esop that's past its vesting and the company's steady state. So, 0:33:29.620 --> 0:33:32.300 you know, I think Canva is obviously perhaps in its 0:33:32.300 --> 0:33:35.460 own class in terms of the, the volume of secondaries 0:33:35.460 --> 0:33:37.300 we're seeing coming out of that. But I'm sort of 0:33:37.340 --> 0:33:40.380 talking more about series A and series B companies in 0:33:40.380 --> 0:33:41.260 this context. 0:33:42.100 --> 0:33:45.420 Uh, stew, being a lawyer has got, you know, it's 0:33:45.420 --> 0:33:48.900 a reputation for working crazy long hours. And I'm sure 0:33:49.180 --> 0:33:52.100 you would have grown up in especially in London. Uh, 0:33:52.140 --> 0:33:55.440 you know, when you were there. It was hard, I'm sure. 0:33:55.560 --> 0:33:58.200 And you, I'm sure, have pulled. You've probably lost count 0:33:58.200 --> 0:34:00.320 of the number of all nighters. You've you've had to 0:34:00.320 --> 0:34:03.760 stay up. Is that still the case or is, uh, 0:34:03.760 --> 0:34:06.040 you know, because a super tired lawyer is probably not 0:34:06.040 --> 0:34:07.960 an effective lawyer, which is why you do your work 0:34:08.000 --> 0:34:11.120 first thing in the morning after a good night's sleep. Like, 0:34:11.160 --> 0:34:14.319 how are working practices now versus how they were when 0:34:14.320 --> 0:34:15.640 you were a junior lawyer? 0:34:15.880 --> 0:34:18.160 Yeah. Look, I still think it's an issue that the 0:34:18.160 --> 0:34:22.399 industry grapples with. I think one of the benefits of 0:34:22.400 --> 0:34:25.680 working in a venture capital practice is it tends not 0:34:25.680 --> 0:34:30.040 to be that all consuming M&A deal that would suck 0:34:30.400 --> 0:34:33.600 20 hours out of every team member's day. The volume 0:34:33.640 --> 0:34:37.719 of work that goes into your traditional Seed series A, 0:34:37.760 --> 0:34:41.480 series B fundraise, just in terms of the sheer hours 0:34:41.480 --> 0:34:45.360 is less, um, when it gets difficult, which it does sometimes, 0:34:45.360 --> 0:34:48.440 is when you've got a number of deals all on 0:34:48.440 --> 0:34:51.180 roughly the same timeline, for example, coming up and up 0:34:51.180 --> 0:34:53.620 and the founder wants to close for Christmas. Which is. 0:34:53.660 --> 0:34:57.060 Which is apt for the last week of November. But 0:34:57.060 --> 0:35:00.940 to give a real life snapshot of it, I think 0:35:01.219 --> 0:35:05.020 for for our team, I would like to say three 0:35:05.020 --> 0:35:06.899 nights a week, I'd love for the team to be 0:35:06.940 --> 0:35:10.020 out of the office before 630. Now that that won't 0:35:10.020 --> 0:35:12.219 be three nights a week like clockwork. You know, every 0:35:12.219 --> 0:35:14.299 week of the year. Some weeks it'll be a bunch 0:35:14.300 --> 0:35:17.180 of late nights, and then some weeks there'll be no, 0:35:17.180 --> 0:35:20.500 no late nights. But I entirely agree with the sentiment 0:35:20.500 --> 0:35:22.620 that to to do your best work, you need a 0:35:22.620 --> 0:35:24.299 good night's sleep and you need not to be doing 0:35:24.300 --> 0:35:28.140 it super late at night. But I also think there's 0:35:28.140 --> 0:35:32.140 been a big shift, um, in generations and generational expectations 0:35:32.380 --> 0:35:34.259 about what people want from their career. I think the 0:35:34.260 --> 0:35:37.180 vast majority of corporate lawyers that joined the firm when 0:35:37.180 --> 0:35:40.500 I did wanted to work their guts out and become partner. 0:35:41.219 --> 0:35:44.180 And now, I would say the majority of graduates into 0:35:44.180 --> 0:35:46.340 top tier law firms want to come to the firm, 0:35:46.739 --> 0:35:49.219 work hard, get some good expertise, train with some good 0:35:49.219 --> 0:35:51.719 some good lawyers, get some exposure to interesting work, and 0:35:51.719 --> 0:35:54.120 then make an assessment of what's right for them. I 0:35:54.120 --> 0:35:58.160 don't think there's that same, um, cohort of people that 0:35:58.160 --> 0:36:00.810 just want to do whatever it takes, you know, 10 0:36:00.810 --> 0:36:03.680 to 15 years to make partner and then do do 0:36:03.680 --> 0:36:04.920 the work after that. I mean, that. 0:36:04.920 --> 0:36:08.239 Sounds from the outside, healthy. Is that true? Or would 0:36:08.239 --> 0:36:09.920 you rather see them come in and say, I want 0:36:09.920 --> 0:36:10.560 to be a partner? 0:36:11.160 --> 0:36:13.400 Oh, look, I think I think there's, there's there's pros 0:36:13.400 --> 0:36:15.440 and cons to that. I don't think it's a, it's 0:36:15.440 --> 0:36:19.560 a later messier, um, either way. But I do think 0:36:19.560 --> 0:36:23.600 that the way that technology will be affecting the legal industry, 0:36:23.960 --> 0:36:26.799 you know, in the next, you know, three, five, ten 0:36:26.800 --> 0:36:30.279 years will mean there'll be massive efficiencies, which will hopefully 0:36:30.719 --> 0:36:35.080 lead to better cost outcomes for clients, but also less, um, 0:36:35.080 --> 0:36:37.560 boring work for, for junior lawyers and means they can 0:36:37.560 --> 0:36:39.360 do it far more effectively. 0:36:39.800 --> 0:36:42.479 Yeah, I mean, that's just throwing up the thought bubble. Uh, 0:36:42.480 --> 0:36:44.680 in fact, this would have been probably the only podcast 0:36:44.680 --> 0:36:46.399 in the last three years that hadn't asked about AI. 0:36:46.440 --> 0:36:49.500 But I should ask it now. You've touched on it 0:36:49.739 --> 0:36:53.580 like how are you? And how have you seen other 0:36:53.580 --> 0:36:55.739 major law firms grappling with AI and how are you 0:36:55.780 --> 0:36:56.420 using it? 0:36:56.460 --> 0:37:01.620 Yeah, I think from the outset, as a macro industry comment, 0:37:01.620 --> 0:37:05.540 I think the legal industry has been far less affected, um, 0:37:05.540 --> 0:37:09.500 than than other industries have. But that is not to 0:37:09.540 --> 0:37:13.020 in any way suggest that we'll be somehow immune. So 0:37:13.140 --> 0:37:16.819 we've rolled out AI platforms. Now, if you read Ashurst 0:37:16.860 --> 0:37:20.180 Standard Terms and Conditions, which is a riveting read, there's 0:37:20.180 --> 0:37:24.940 in big, bold, highlighted terms that we are authorized, um, 0:37:24.980 --> 0:37:28.500 to use AI tools and applications in part of the 0:37:28.500 --> 0:37:32.460 delivery of the services to you. So we are using 0:37:32.980 --> 0:37:35.379 that as a firm, but we've been using it for 0:37:35.420 --> 0:37:38.339 when it wasn't called AI for, for, for, for many, 0:37:38.340 --> 0:37:44.299 many years. Whether it's review of documents, chronologies, um, automated diligence, uh, 0:37:44.300 --> 0:37:47.880 automated document production, all kinds of things like that. Um, 0:37:47.880 --> 0:37:50.680 but I think now we're, you know, with the advent 0:37:50.680 --> 0:37:55.440 of ChatGPT and generative AI and I've seen, you know, um, 0:37:55.480 --> 0:38:00.160 legal services provided, I think that's got the capacity to say, right, 0:38:00.160 --> 0:38:01.839 get me a really good first draft of something that 0:38:02.239 --> 0:38:05.400 maybe would have taken someone 2 or 3 days almost instantly. 0:38:05.400 --> 0:38:08.800 So we'll be looking more at checking the final work 0:38:08.840 --> 0:38:11.480 and training ourselves on the input to the tools. And 0:38:11.480 --> 0:38:18.360 I think for perhaps, um, law firms that are corporate 0:38:18.360 --> 0:38:20.040 law firms that play in a different sort of segment 0:38:20.040 --> 0:38:23.280 of the market, they'll be able to roll out, you know, really, really, 0:38:23.280 --> 0:38:27.440 really good quality, cost efficient services for people that don't 0:38:27.440 --> 0:38:32.239 demand the same amount of lawyer time advice and advisory work. So, 0:38:32.280 --> 0:38:33.959 you know, if I had a crystal ball, maybe I'd 0:38:33.960 --> 0:38:37.560 say in a decade, the the role of a corporate 0:38:37.560 --> 0:38:39.880 lawyer or a venture capital lawyer will be providing the 0:38:39.880 --> 0:38:44.540 strategic advice, the deal structuring and then confirming the output 0:38:44.660 --> 0:38:47.739 of whatever's generating it, whether it be a human or 0:38:47.739 --> 0:38:50.940 I or I, with the assistance of a human, will be, 0:38:50.980 --> 0:38:55.260 you know, far more, um, high value relationship advisory work 0:38:55.700 --> 0:38:59.020 and far, far fewer hours on the document production side 0:38:59.020 --> 0:38:59.540 of things. 0:39:01.100 --> 0:39:04.299 Uh, Stu, I think you said either today or when 0:39:04.300 --> 0:39:05.859 we had lunch the other day, that you tend to 0:39:05.860 --> 0:39:08.620 act for the founders more than you do for the investors. 0:39:08.900 --> 0:39:13.620 Is that deliberate? Do you prefer founders to the investors? 0:39:13.620 --> 0:39:17.100 Like who? Yeah. Which one gives you more of a buzz? 0:39:17.700 --> 0:39:19.780 Oh, look, I you know, it's like asking a parent 0:39:19.780 --> 0:39:22.380 which of their children they prefer. Um, but no, look, 0:39:22.380 --> 0:39:24.299 I think I think my practice. I should probably have 0:39:24.300 --> 0:39:27.300 better numbers on this, but I would say it's probably 0:39:28.300 --> 0:39:32.300 60 to 70% founder work. And then, uh, the remainder 0:39:32.300 --> 0:39:36.779 investor work, the investor work is pretty evenly split between, uh, 0:39:36.780 --> 0:39:42.839 offshore venture funds, domestic venture funds and corporate venture capital Clients. Um, 0:39:42.880 --> 0:39:47.640 so I think, look, just transparently, honestly, acting for a 0:39:47.640 --> 0:39:51.839 founder is more fulfilling on a human level. Investors are great, right? 0:39:51.880 --> 0:39:54.680 They're well resourced. They're doing this day in, day out. 0:39:54.719 --> 0:39:57.480 They know what their expectations are. Many of them now 0:39:57.520 --> 0:40:01.359 have excellent, um, in-house lawyers that provide the instruction and, 0:40:01.360 --> 0:40:04.880 you know, go through the decision making process. So I 0:40:04.880 --> 0:40:07.000 like to think of them as well oiled machines who 0:40:07.000 --> 0:40:11.799 you're providing expertise and, and, and resource to, um, which 0:40:11.800 --> 0:40:14.040 is quite different to acting on the founder side of 0:40:14.040 --> 0:40:17.520 the table where, you know, they don't have an in-house counsel, 0:40:17.520 --> 0:40:19.799 they don't have a well oiled machine. This isn't the 0:40:19.800 --> 0:40:21.960 fourth deal they're doing this month. This is the one 0:40:21.960 --> 0:40:26.000 deal they're doing this in this two year period. So 0:40:26.000 --> 0:40:29.640 in that sense, um, on a personal level, it's, um, 0:40:29.680 --> 0:40:33.720 it's quite fulfilling, particularly when in every, every deal has 0:40:33.880 --> 0:40:37.560 its bumps and nuances and, and issues to, to navigate. 0:40:37.560 --> 0:40:41.339 But when you're on a deal, that's really important. Maybe 0:40:41.340 --> 0:40:45.460 the company's really critically in need of the funding. Sometimes 0:40:45.460 --> 0:40:47.460 when the company is critically in need of the funding, 0:40:47.940 --> 0:40:51.739 the financiers are aware of that pressure. And, you know, 0:40:51.780 --> 0:40:54.580 having someone that can stand shoulder to shoulder with the 0:40:54.580 --> 0:40:59.020 founder and help them navigate through the bumps and the 0:40:59.020 --> 0:41:01.779 potential issues. At the end of that, you get a 0:41:01.780 --> 0:41:04.460 sign of, oh, wow, that was touch and go there 0:41:04.460 --> 0:41:06.180 for a while. I'm so glad that we we got 0:41:06.180 --> 0:41:09.140 through it. Um, is is more rewarding on a personal 0:41:09.140 --> 0:41:12.020 level than, um, than, you know, doing the deal of 0:41:12.020 --> 0:41:15.460 the year for some other great fund that, you know, 0:41:16.020 --> 0:41:18.180 probably would have been able to do the deal just 0:41:18.180 --> 0:41:19.900 as well without you. But I think when you're on 0:41:19.900 --> 0:41:21.980 the founder side, you can feel like you've contributed a 0:41:21.980 --> 0:41:22.540 little bit more. 0:41:23.300 --> 0:41:25.299 Uh, right. I'm getting to the end of my questions here, Stu. 0:41:25.340 --> 0:41:28.140 So let me ask. This might be the last one. Um, 0:41:28.140 --> 0:41:31.900 but you've been a lawyer for a number of years. Uh, 0:41:31.900 --> 0:41:36.300 and working in this, I guess, high growth founder venture 0:41:36.300 --> 0:41:39.279 space for at least ten years now, you know, so 0:41:39.320 --> 0:41:42.680 you've seen a lot. You've seen great deals, bad deals, 0:41:42.680 --> 0:41:47.000 great founders, maybe not so good founders. Any advice from 0:41:47.000 --> 0:41:49.600 all that pattern matching? If we've got a listener here 0:41:49.600 --> 0:41:52.879 who is about to embark on their startup journey, any 0:41:52.880 --> 0:41:55.400 advice to them, either with a legal lens on it 0:41:55.400 --> 0:41:57.840 or not, or just with a Stu Dillard lens? 0:41:58.880 --> 0:42:02.880 No. Look, I think the advice that I would give 0:42:03.200 --> 0:42:07.760 and what I see, um, be most successful are founders 0:42:07.760 --> 0:42:10.719 that can build a really good team right there, the 0:42:10.760 --> 0:42:16.000 kind of leaders that are not only brilliant, but they 0:42:16.040 --> 0:42:20.839 engender this sense from their team of purpose, and they 0:42:20.840 --> 0:42:24.880 just want to do their best for that founder, for 0:42:24.920 --> 0:42:29.520 that business. Because every business grows to a stage where 0:42:29.520 --> 0:42:34.160 it's just impossible for the founder to to be everywhere. 0:42:34.560 --> 0:42:37.500 And I think the, the really wonderful founders I've seen 0:42:37.500 --> 0:42:40.140 are the ones that can communicate their message and just 0:42:40.140 --> 0:42:42.860 deal with individuals, even on a one on one basis, 0:42:42.860 --> 0:42:46.540 rather than some big town hall meeting where there's, you know, 0:42:46.580 --> 0:42:50.420 500 people banging on the desk. But just to engender 0:42:50.420 --> 0:42:52.940 a sense of loyalty and purpose and work ethic. And 0:42:52.940 --> 0:42:55.219 when you see that in practice, you find yourself going, oh, 0:42:55.219 --> 0:42:57.540 I want to do my best for this, for this person. 0:42:57.540 --> 0:43:00.460 I really want to make sure they they get a 0:43:00.460 --> 0:43:03.060 good result. So, you know, as a, as a lawyer 0:43:03.060 --> 0:43:05.540 and I've got a small team, I practice for a 0:43:05.540 --> 0:43:07.859 decade and all I really focused on was being the 0:43:07.860 --> 0:43:10.140 best lawyer I could be, knowing all the law I 0:43:10.140 --> 0:43:12.980 could be and knowing sort of all the, the tricks 0:43:13.219 --> 0:43:16.100 in the, the legal toolbox. And it was something I 0:43:16.100 --> 0:43:20.140 massively under-invested in and I definitely don't have that inherent skill. 0:43:20.140 --> 0:43:23.940 But as I've worked with some really successful founders, you 0:43:23.940 --> 0:43:27.420 can see the way they interact with people. They've obviously 0:43:27.460 --> 0:43:30.939 they've often got a really high level of empathy. It's 0:43:30.940 --> 0:43:35.560 often genuine. Yeah. Um, and I think if, if people 0:43:35.560 --> 0:43:38.919 focus on that, not only the milestone, the growth rate, 0:43:38.920 --> 0:43:41.160 the success, the product market fit, all those things that 0:43:41.160 --> 0:43:44.880 are undeniably important. But if you spend some time on 0:43:45.000 --> 0:43:48.279 team selection and then watering the garden, that is your team, 0:43:48.280 --> 0:43:51.360 I think that's sort of the thing that I've seen, um, 0:43:51.880 --> 0:43:54.160 to be the biggest hallmark of success. 0:43:54.280 --> 0:43:57.160 Yeah, I lied to you. I've got one more question 0:43:57.160 --> 0:44:00.720 I forgot to answer earlier. Azure sponsors a few things. 0:44:00.719 --> 0:44:03.680 So Apple is one of them, uh, which used to 0:44:03.680 --> 0:44:06.040 be called Heads Over Heels. So it's basically a way 0:44:06.040 --> 0:44:10.160 to to help women network better get them more connected. Um, 0:44:10.160 --> 0:44:14.280 why why is that a passion project? Is that, uh, 0:44:14.320 --> 0:44:17.520 I mean, gender in tech is hard. I don't know 0:44:17.520 --> 0:44:19.520 whether it's the same in law. So, I mean, where's 0:44:19.520 --> 0:44:21.719 the gender passion coming from? 0:44:21.719 --> 0:44:23.640 Yeah. Look, I think it's a thing that the, the 0:44:23.640 --> 0:44:26.160 firms are really passionate about for many years. And I'll 0:44:26.160 --> 0:44:30.960 pay homage to our global CEO Paul Jenkins, who when, 0:44:30.960 --> 0:44:33.940 when I raised this with him. Um, he was just 0:44:33.940 --> 0:44:36.580 all about it. He's, um, he's a member of Committed 0:44:36.580 --> 0:44:39.419 to Change, which is a collection of CEOs that are 0:44:39.420 --> 0:44:45.060 across industries that are, um, committed to to rebalancing the 0:44:45.060 --> 0:44:49.860 gender imbalance that exists in so many industries and laws. Definitely, um, 0:44:49.900 --> 0:44:52.219 not immune from that. So it's a big it's a 0:44:52.219 --> 0:44:55.219 big passion project for the firm, for Paul and for me. 0:44:55.219 --> 0:44:58.100 So when we had the opportunity to partner with them 0:44:58.100 --> 0:45:01.219 in a meaningful way, we did. And I think the 0:45:01.219 --> 0:45:04.900 the work in which they do and the way they target, um, 0:45:05.100 --> 0:45:09.419 the identification that a number of female founders, you know, 0:45:09.460 --> 0:45:13.500 don't have the same network and they don't have that same, um, 0:45:13.540 --> 0:45:16.140 community around them. And for people to come together for 0:45:16.140 --> 0:45:18.060 us to, to do that, to contribute, but for us 0:45:18.060 --> 0:45:20.500 to expand our networks to it, because law firms are 0:45:20.500 --> 0:45:24.299 good connectors. We've got clients and contacts across industry, often 0:45:24.300 --> 0:45:27.220 at quite a senior level. It just made complete sense 0:45:27.219 --> 0:45:31.160 to us, um, to, to partner with them on, on 0:45:31.160 --> 0:45:32.520 the good work they do. Yeah. 0:45:32.560 --> 0:45:35.279 Yeah. And you've also partnered with innovation Bay. I mean, 0:45:35.280 --> 0:45:37.120 it's not the reason you're on the show. We had 0:45:37.120 --> 0:45:38.960 you anyway. But I mean, you came along to our 0:45:38.960 --> 0:45:43.560 event in Darwin. You've been enthusiastic. I guess you've been 0:45:43.560 --> 0:45:45.400 on the sidelines for a little bit, but now you're 0:45:45.400 --> 0:45:49.000 inside the tent. Any observations on on us. This sounds 0:45:49.000 --> 0:45:52.480 like a bit of a Dorothy Dixer, but, um. Yeah. 0:45:52.680 --> 0:45:54.200 What's your observation in our community? 0:45:54.640 --> 0:45:56.200 Yeah. Look, I think I had the good fortune of 0:45:56.239 --> 0:46:00.759 going away, um, with the founder cohort, and I can 0:46:00.760 --> 0:46:06.239 honestly say it's the least corporate, um, networking, sponsorship, community 0:46:06.440 --> 0:46:09.960 based event that I've ever been to. Often it's in a, 0:46:10.000 --> 0:46:12.719 you know, a law firm office with canopies and, you know, 0:46:12.760 --> 0:46:15.120 sparkling water and chardonnay and the rest of it. So 0:46:15.160 --> 0:46:18.520 to go out to, to Katherine Gorge and to effectively 0:46:18.560 --> 0:46:22.239 exhale for a couple of days and, um, and be 0:46:22.239 --> 0:46:27.120 part of that was pretty special. I felt fairly apprehensive 0:46:27.160 --> 0:46:30.779 going as as a corporate lawyer. As a corporate partner, 0:46:31.620 --> 0:46:35.060 I'm acutely aware that, you know, while I might, you know, 0:46:35.100 --> 0:46:37.859 spend some time down in the trenches helping them out 0:46:37.860 --> 0:46:41.380 on a fundraise, I haven't, you know, given up my job, 0:46:41.420 --> 0:46:45.100 put my family's livelihood on the line. I've been supporting 0:46:45.219 --> 0:46:48.660 some founders, but I haven't dealt with the the stress 0:46:49.020 --> 0:46:51.260 and the anxiety that it is. So going into that, 0:46:51.260 --> 0:46:54.299 I was apprehensive that it's like, what's this corporate lawyer 0:46:54.340 --> 0:46:57.580 doing here? He wouldn't have any appreciation of what it is. 0:46:57.580 --> 0:46:59.900 So for the first little while, I just sort of 0:46:59.940 --> 0:47:03.700 kept to myself and remembered my grandfather's advice that you've 0:47:03.700 --> 0:47:05.660 got two ears and one mouth and try to use 0:47:05.660 --> 0:47:10.500 them in that same proportion. Um, but after, um, a 0:47:10.500 --> 0:47:13.219 little while, you know, you sort of get to hear 0:47:13.219 --> 0:47:14.899 people's stories. And for me, it was a fair bit 0:47:14.900 --> 0:47:17.940 of listening and then, um, interact with people on a 0:47:17.940 --> 0:47:20.900 more human level. And I think that's the for me, um, 0:47:20.900 --> 0:47:26.560 that's the key distinguishing, um, feature of innovation Bay. I mean, 0:47:26.600 --> 0:47:29.560 there's a good cohort of people. There's, you know, probably 0:47:29.560 --> 0:47:32.359 some corporate benefit and deals that get done. But I 0:47:32.360 --> 0:47:34.640 think it genuinely tries to eschew that and say, like, 0:47:34.640 --> 0:47:37.640 let's just leave the ego and the the job at 0:47:37.640 --> 0:47:41.120 the door and try to actually figure out why we're 0:47:41.120 --> 0:47:43.120 here and meet some good people. And if good things 0:47:43.120 --> 0:47:45.240 come from that, that's great. But that's not the main reason. 0:47:45.480 --> 0:47:47.919 It's good to hear. I mean, our philosophy is that 0:47:47.920 --> 0:47:50.040 you're before you're a founder, an investor or a lawyer. 0:47:50.040 --> 0:47:52.520 You're a human, you know? So bring the best humans 0:47:52.520 --> 0:47:54.719 together and get them to learn from each other. And, 0:47:54.760 --> 0:47:56.960 you know, that's if we're all better humans. It's a 0:47:56.960 --> 0:47:57.759 better society. 0:47:57.880 --> 0:48:02.560 Yeah. And I think, look, the vast, vast preponderance of 0:48:02.560 --> 0:48:06.120 people that are in the Australian venture community, whether it's 0:48:06.120 --> 0:48:10.640 a corporate, a fund or a founder, I, I think 0:48:11.000 --> 0:48:14.319 their heart is in the, in the most part for 0:48:14.320 --> 0:48:17.439 the right place. Some people won't get along. There's going 0:48:17.440 --> 0:48:19.879 to be not just altogether bad actors, but some people 0:48:19.880 --> 0:48:22.680 do the wrong thing, you know, different times. But in 0:48:22.680 --> 0:48:26.510 the overwhelming majority of cases. I think, you know, the 0:48:26.510 --> 0:48:28.790 people in, in this part of the world practicing in 0:48:28.790 --> 0:48:32.270 this space have have got their heart in the right place. Yeah. 0:48:32.870 --> 0:48:35.470 All right, look, that's, uh, that's the end of our 0:48:35.469 --> 0:48:38.470 formal part, Stu. So thank you. Uh, that was great. 0:48:38.469 --> 0:48:41.710 I loved hearing that story and some of your insights. Uh, 0:48:41.750 --> 0:48:44.870 quick fire round. So I know you were feverishly writing 0:48:44.870 --> 0:48:47.350 these down before we started. So can you give us 0:48:47.350 --> 0:48:48.750 a glimpse into your favorite book? 0:48:49.550 --> 0:48:52.310 Okay. I'll go two. Okay. Fiction. Fiction. 0:48:52.310 --> 0:48:53.229 Non fiction. Great. 0:48:53.230 --> 0:48:56.870 Love it. Um, and maybe that'll cut down on the back, but, um, 0:48:56.870 --> 0:48:59.469 the Goldfinch for fiction. I think that's just a beautifully 0:48:59.630 --> 0:49:02.029 written book. Please don't watch the movie. Read the book. 0:49:02.030 --> 0:49:05.190 It's one that that will engross you and, um, take you. 0:49:05.270 --> 0:49:05.790 Is that recent. 0:49:05.790 --> 0:49:07.870 Book? No, no, I think it was published maybe a 0:49:07.870 --> 0:49:10.510 decade ago. The Goldfinch by Donna Tartt. Yeah, she's a brilliant, 0:49:10.510 --> 0:49:14.270 brilliant writer. Um, and then one of the best sort 0:49:14.270 --> 0:49:18.950 of nonfiction I've read recently, and I do read mainly non-fiction. 0:49:18.989 --> 0:49:22.569 Being a lawyer, I've got a personality disorder, obviously, but, um, 0:49:22.570 --> 0:49:24.410 the I think the book is called Time to Breathe 0:49:24.410 --> 0:49:28.730 by Bill Mitchell. Bill Mitchell's a practicing psychologist in the 0:49:28.730 --> 0:49:32.049 City of London, and it's a book, um, around a 0:49:32.050 --> 0:49:34.649 whole range of techniques to to manage your energy and 0:49:34.650 --> 0:49:37.609 empathy and stress levels through the day. And there's some 0:49:37.610 --> 0:49:41.270 really practical tips, like maybe not taking meetings between 8 0:49:41.270 --> 0:49:43.890 and 11, working out when you're most productive, working out 0:49:43.890 --> 0:49:46.330 when you need some downtime to sort of treat yourself 0:49:46.330 --> 0:49:48.850 in the best way so you can be, you know, 0:49:48.890 --> 0:49:51.370 at the the highest level of energy throughout the day 0:49:51.370 --> 0:49:52.730 for the people around you. Yeah. 0:49:52.770 --> 0:49:55.650 Love it. Uh, what about podcast? Do you listen to 0:49:55.650 --> 0:49:56.370 any podcasts? 0:49:56.489 --> 0:50:01.770 I'm a sucker for Australian true crime. Um, um. Story. 0:50:01.770 --> 0:50:05.890 So the the teacher's pet that the Australian put out. Um, 0:50:05.890 --> 0:50:08.410 the sure thing about the insider trading and the Department 0:50:08.410 --> 0:50:12.089 of Treasury with the AFR and, um, liar, liar, um, 0:50:12.090 --> 0:50:14.370 that the age put out. I, I know I'm a 0:50:14.370 --> 0:50:14.969 sucker for those things. 0:50:14.969 --> 0:50:18.370 So these are like fixed width if you like almost 0:50:18.370 --> 0:50:19.650 documentary series. 0:50:20.070 --> 0:50:22.629 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they're sort of like, I don't know, 0:50:23.230 --> 0:50:26.549 6 to 8 episodes. Um. Um, there was one called 0:50:26.550 --> 0:50:27.870 Bad Blood on Theranos. 0:50:27.870 --> 0:50:29.350 Oh, yeah, I remember that one. That was. 0:50:29.350 --> 0:50:31.590 Great. Similar, uh, kind of thing. There was a really 0:50:31.590 --> 0:50:34.830 the really, really famous one that maybe wasn't Murder Mystery, 0:50:34.830 --> 0:50:39.710 which was one of the first serial podcasts, um, um, 0:50:39.750 --> 0:50:42.270 about an artist that was accused of murder and then 0:50:42.270 --> 0:50:45.630 got convicted and they, they picked apart the, um, the 0:50:45.630 --> 0:50:46.310 case on that. 0:50:46.350 --> 0:50:47.910 So that's good. I think I've got to get into 0:50:47.910 --> 0:50:50.230 those more serialized ones. I mean, I just tend to 0:50:50.230 --> 0:50:52.710 find the ones of, you know, people that you like, 0:50:52.710 --> 0:50:54.589 and they do it every week. And, you know, whether 0:50:54.590 --> 0:50:57.230 it's The Economist or HARDtalk from the BBC, I mean, 0:50:57.230 --> 0:51:00.190 there's some good ones like that. But yeah, I probably 0:51:00.190 --> 0:51:02.390 do need to try the serialized ones a bit more. 0:51:02.390 --> 0:51:04.310 I'll try that one. Thank you. Um, do you have 0:51:04.310 --> 0:51:05.950 a favorite news source? I do. 0:51:05.989 --> 0:51:09.509 I I've been waking up to Radio National since, you know, 0:51:09.550 --> 0:51:11.430 as long as I can remember. There was a brief 0:51:11.430 --> 0:51:13.670 time where I, um. I cheated on my loyalty to 0:51:13.710 --> 0:51:15.469 Radio National when I lived in London and woke up 0:51:15.469 --> 0:51:20.290 to to BBC one or. or BBC London. Um. But no. Look, 0:51:20.290 --> 0:51:22.410 I just love Radio National. I think it's a good 0:51:22.450 --> 0:51:25.169 sort of snapshot of what's going on in the country. Um, 0:51:25.170 --> 0:51:25.810 every morning. 0:51:26.050 --> 0:51:28.450 You're a radio one listener. I have pegged you for 0:51:28.450 --> 0:51:30.570 radio four, but I guess you were younger and funkier 0:51:30.570 --> 0:51:31.810 in London. Is that right? It's hard. 0:51:31.810 --> 0:51:34.730 To believe. Yeah, yeah, it's hard to believe. No, no, but, um, I. 0:51:34.730 --> 0:51:37.049 Was always really. I was, like, the complete nerd. I 0:51:37.050 --> 0:51:38.450 only listened to radio three and four. 0:51:38.810 --> 0:51:41.930 Well, I mean, like, back in university, I did have 0:51:41.930 --> 0:51:45.729 a DJ set on community radio back then. You could 0:51:45.770 --> 0:51:50.210 you could download Pete Tong's, uh, weekly, weekly, um, two 0:51:50.210 --> 0:51:52.569 hour session from, you know, whether it was sort of 0:51:52.570 --> 0:51:55.450 the DJs that were headlining Creamfields or Paul Oakenfold did 0:51:55.450 --> 0:51:58.370 a brilliant one, and then it sort of, um, went 0:51:58.370 --> 0:52:00.290 from strength to strength, er and sort of there's some 0:52:00.290 --> 0:52:03.770 great CDs like, um, back to mine that are sort 0:52:03.770 --> 0:52:07.049 of artists that put together compilations of the kind of 0:52:07.050 --> 0:52:08.649 tracks they'd play on if they had an after party 0:52:08.650 --> 0:52:12.089 and they invited everyone back to theirs, or Fabric Live, 0:52:12.090 --> 0:52:15.290 which is a great, um, club in central London, had 0:52:15.330 --> 0:52:18.510 sort of you know, periodic CDs by the, the DJs 0:52:18.510 --> 0:52:19.470 that headlined their event. 0:52:19.510 --> 0:52:21.270 You know, I think you're the first guest in 200 0:52:21.310 --> 0:52:24.870 that suggested a radio show as a news source. So 0:52:24.989 --> 0:52:27.830 that's that's good. I love it. Yeah. Uh, do you 0:52:27.830 --> 0:52:29.469 have a favorite tech CEO? 0:52:29.830 --> 0:52:32.430 No, I can't, I can't, I can't I can't single 0:52:32.430 --> 0:52:35.230 out one of the many hundred. Um, I've acted for 0:52:35.270 --> 0:52:35.790 I've sort of. 0:52:35.790 --> 0:52:37.710 There's ones you haven't acted for then. 0:52:39.870 --> 0:52:42.470 Oh, look, it's, um. It's difficult to say. 0:52:43.070 --> 0:52:44.149 Do you like Elon? 0:52:44.230 --> 0:52:47.989 Look, I read, I read, I read his, um, his, um, 0:52:47.989 --> 0:52:51.230 book or Isaac Isaacson's book, rather, um, earlier in the year. 0:52:51.230 --> 0:52:55.630 And he's definitely got a unique cluster of personality traits 0:52:55.630 --> 0:53:01.230 developed by a unique cluster of early childhood, um, experiences. But, 0:53:01.270 --> 0:53:03.430 I mean, like, I think the, the safe bet in 0:53:03.430 --> 0:53:06.270 terms of, um, sort of the some of the founders 0:53:06.270 --> 0:53:09.710 in Australia, um, and I, I don't have the pleasure 0:53:09.710 --> 0:53:15.489 of acting for them. Um, the founders of Canva, I think, um, 0:53:15.530 --> 0:53:17.250 there's been a lot written about them. In fact, I 0:53:17.250 --> 0:53:20.130 think the, the Australian financial press must have some contract 0:53:20.130 --> 0:53:21.850 that they have to write at least one newspaper article 0:53:21.850 --> 0:53:25.210 every week about how our funds mark to market their stock, 0:53:25.210 --> 0:53:27.370 or there might be a secondary or they're bought and 0:53:27.370 --> 0:53:31.009 sold or something. But, um, I think the way in 0:53:31.010 --> 0:53:33.610 which they've conducted their business, the success of their business, 0:53:33.850 --> 0:53:36.330 the way they've treated their people, and, you know, I 0:53:36.330 --> 0:53:40.370 mentioned earlier, um, the way that the extreme wealth generation 0:53:40.370 --> 0:53:44.610 that's come from some of those really successful company has, um, 0:53:44.650 --> 0:53:47.609 fed back into the ecosystem, I think puts a pretty 0:53:47.610 --> 0:53:51.410 bright light on, on the Australian, um, ecosystem. And long 0:53:51.410 --> 0:53:52.090 may that continue. 0:53:52.130 --> 0:53:54.770 Yeah. No, that's, uh yeah, that's a great call out. 0:53:54.770 --> 0:53:58.049 We've had a few for Canberra. That's a popular one. Uh, 0:53:58.050 --> 0:53:59.649 what about app? Do you have a favorite app in 0:53:59.650 --> 0:54:00.210 your phone? 0:54:00.330 --> 0:54:03.569 I do, I, I don't have any social media on 0:54:03.570 --> 0:54:05.609 my phone. I deleted that a little while ago because 0:54:05.610 --> 0:54:08.049 I found that, you know, until I read the works 0:54:08.050 --> 0:54:11.210 of Marcel Proust, I probably don't have time for those. Um, 0:54:11.210 --> 0:54:13.629 but the one not time wasting app, but the one 0:54:13.630 --> 0:54:16.070 app that I do sort of use for filler times 0:54:16.070 --> 0:54:18.950 is the New York Times games app. So I do 0:54:18.989 --> 0:54:21.629 try to do the crossword, the hard sudoku, and then 0:54:21.630 --> 0:54:24.270 the the easier ones and Wordle. So, you know, that's 0:54:24.270 --> 0:54:26.830 something that gets a fair bit of run on the 0:54:26.830 --> 0:54:28.910 the iPhone usage time. That's good. 0:54:28.989 --> 0:54:30.750 Now what about like the opposite of that then is 0:54:30.750 --> 0:54:33.589 a productivity tool. Once you've wasted all that time and 0:54:33.590 --> 0:54:35.790 the puzzles like how do you stay efficient? 0:54:35.910 --> 0:54:37.790 Well, to be efficient I'll refer you to my first 0:54:37.790 --> 0:54:40.069 answer with Time to Breathe by Bill Mitchell. That's a 0:54:40.070 --> 0:54:43.469 really excellent practical book. The other thing that's not an app, 0:54:43.469 --> 0:54:47.950 but a productivity tool, which is an obvious one, is exercise. Like, 0:54:47.950 --> 0:54:50.710 I just need to do exercise every morning. I find 0:54:50.710 --> 0:54:52.229 that at the back end of the day, it means 0:54:52.230 --> 0:54:54.509 I have no trouble falling asleep and I feel like 0:54:54.510 --> 0:54:57.910 I'm looking after myself. Then it can tend to put 0:54:57.910 --> 0:55:01.190 things in perspective, get the, um, you know, get the 0:55:01.190 --> 0:55:03.630 endorphins up and I'll give a shout out to. I mean, 0:55:03.670 --> 0:55:07.030 a big passion of mine is sort of medicine 3.0. 0:55:07.070 --> 0:55:11.129 You mentioned podcasting. Huberman, you know, Peter Attia, David Sinclair, 0:55:11.170 --> 0:55:14.290 fantastic Australian at Harvard. Um, some of the guys at 0:55:14.290 --> 0:55:16.969 Evo Lab, which I've just signed on to, um, as 0:55:16.969 --> 0:55:23.130 a user, are doing some fantastic, groundbreaking work with bringing, um, 0:55:23.170 --> 0:55:26.810 all that, you know, refereed journal studies into a very, 0:55:26.810 --> 0:55:29.530 very practical application. And they're providing it as a service 0:55:29.530 --> 0:55:33.770 in Australia. So I am just blown away, um, by 0:55:33.770 --> 0:55:35.450 Sam and the team at Evo Lab, and I think 0:55:35.450 --> 0:55:36.210 they're fantastic. 0:55:36.370 --> 0:55:39.290 Great TV show. Do you watch tele? 0:55:39.489 --> 0:55:40.489 This is the easiest. 0:55:40.530 --> 0:55:40.970 Oh, yeah. 0:55:41.010 --> 0:55:45.129 The easiest one. Like suits. Yeah. No, I know I 0:55:45.170 --> 0:55:48.090 look West Wing. If I could just watch West Wing, 0:55:48.610 --> 0:55:50.410 you know, at the beginning of every year and watch 0:55:50.410 --> 0:55:52.410 all seven seasons. And you said you weren't allowed to 0:55:52.410 --> 0:55:55.009 watch any other television. I'd be a happy camper. I 0:55:55.010 --> 0:55:57.969 can't think of the my second favorite TV show. So 0:55:57.969 --> 0:56:01.410 I'm a little bit of a, um, a Aaron Sorkin tragic. 0:56:01.450 --> 0:56:04.569 He's he's he's written some other, um, excellent TV shows, 0:56:04.570 --> 0:56:06.690 but that's, uh, that was a very easy one for me. Yeah. 0:56:06.690 --> 0:56:08.750 That's great. All right, last question. Uh, if you were 0:56:08.750 --> 0:56:10.950 asked to do a Ted talk, what would you do 0:56:10.989 --> 0:56:11.350 it on? 0:56:11.510 --> 0:56:15.870 I feel uniquely unqualified to to give, uh, to give 0:56:15.870 --> 0:56:19.190 anything exciting, um, about this, but I it would have 0:56:19.190 --> 0:56:22.069 to be, um, on sort of some of the highs 0:56:22.070 --> 0:56:24.950 and lows and the founder journeys, um, you know, if 0:56:24.950 --> 0:56:26.989 I could get consent from all the founders to tell 0:56:27.030 --> 0:56:32.390 some of the, you know, highs and lows of their stories, um, 0:56:32.430 --> 0:56:34.750 on the, you know, the ups and downs of venture 0:56:34.750 --> 0:56:37.469 capital fundraising. Um, I think that would be one thing 0:56:37.469 --> 0:56:39.310 that I'd have some, some good insights on. 0:56:39.350 --> 0:56:41.390 All right. Stu. So if anyone wants to find out 0:56:41.390 --> 0:56:44.830 more about you or Ashurst or, um, you know, where 0:56:44.830 --> 0:56:45.710 can they find you? 0:56:45.750 --> 0:56:49.430 Sure. I think, uh, just Google Stuart Ashurst. It's got my. 0:56:49.469 --> 0:56:51.629 It's got the firm. The firm website there. Shoot me 0:56:51.630 --> 0:56:54.830 an email and, um, we'll come back to you as 0:56:54.830 --> 0:56:55.670 quickly as possible. 0:56:55.710 --> 0:56:58.390 Yeah. Love it. Uh, Stu. Thank you. Appreciate your time. 0:56:58.390 --> 0:57:02.270 Thanks for the office as a studio. And, uh. Yeah. Thanks, everyone, 0:57:02.270 --> 0:57:07.110 for listening. Thank you.