S1: Hi, everyone. Ian here. Now on the show today we
S1: have Stuart Dullard. Stuart is a partner at global law
S1: firm Ashurst. Spaced out. Sidney, why have we got our
S1: lawyer on the show? I hear you ask. Well, look,
S1: when you think of the startup ecosystem, you probably think
S1: of founders and or investors, but there's plenty of other
S1: people in the ecosystem. Lawyers are a very important part
S1: of that ecosystem. Whether you're doing transaction raise capital transaction
S1: to sell your business, secondary share sale, employment contract, all
S1: of this stuff needs lawyers and more importantly, good lawyers.
S1: And there are not, you know, there's a few and
S1: we talk about it on the episode, but there's not
S1: a huge number of experienced good startup lawyers across Australia.
S1: And Stuart would be classed as one of them. So
S1: I was pretty keen to get him on the show.
S1: He's been a friend of, uh, of mine and innovation
S1: Bay for quite a long time now. Had a great
S1: chat with him. So why don't we don't we jump
S1: over and hear my conversation with Stuart Dillard? All right. Welcome, everyone.
S1: I'm sitting here with Stu Dillard. Uh, Stu is a
S1: partner at Ashurst, and we are in your lovely office
S1: in Martin Place. So thanks for hosting us here today, Stu.
S2: Well, very glad to be here. A little bit nervous
S2: about lawyers. Don't often get gigs on podcasts and have
S2: to be careful about what I say.
S1: Oh, you're not gonna have to be careful with me.
S1: I was just disappointed. We were meant to be in
S1: the Prime Minister's room, and we got put in a
S1: different room. Yeah, it's still a nice room, don't get
S1: me wrong.
S2: Yeah, well, we had to sort of make you second
S2: best to the Prime Minister today, but, uh, otherwise, if
S2: we do a second one, we can. We can go
S2: to the Prime Minister's office.
S1: And it's not that the Prime Minister was a Ashurst partner.
S1: Not the one whose office this was. I think Malcolm
S1: Turnbull was at one point you mentioned, but not who was.
S1: Who was it, Bob Hawke?
S2: Yeah. So we're in the CBA building in Martin Place
S2: that I think a lot of Australians will remember. When
S2: you were a primary school student, CBA would come around
S2: and teach you the importance of savings. And they'd give
S2: you this money box, which was a rectangle shaped money box. Um,
S2: that was in the image of this exact building. So
S2: this is a very old building that we're in in
S2: Martin Place. And because or at least since federation, um,
S2: the politicians have been down in Canberra and the Prime
S2: Minister's primary office, unsurprisingly, is in Canberra. But he needed
S2: an office in Sydney. And what better place than the
S2: illustrious Commonwealth Bank of Australia building in Martin Place? So yes,
S2: there was a portion of this building carved out for
S2: the Prime Minister's office from, you know, early in the
S2: 20th century, up until I think Bob Hawke was the
S2: last one that used to occupy our office. But that
S2: was well before our law firm was here. So we
S2: can't claim to say that we just sublet a corner
S2: of our office to to the sitting prime minister. All right.
S1: Let's move on from the Prime Minister's office. Trivia. I
S1: love it, though. That's great. Look, why don't you tell
S1: us a bit more about Ashurst and maybe your role here.
S2: So, look, Ashurst is a global corporate law firm, of
S2: which there are a number. So we've got offices all
S2: around the globe. Practicing in all the parts of corporate
S2: law that that you would expect. I'm a partner, as
S2: you mentioned, in the Sydney. Office. And I think I've
S2: got the best job at the firm. So when the
S2: firm redid its strategy, as we do from time to
S2: time a little over a decade ago. We have a
S2: number of focuses, but two of the core focuses are
S2: on technology and energy transition. Um, as many large corporate
S2: law firms have, we've got a number of, of large
S2: corporate clients that are either pure play tech companies or
S2: large corporates that have got big tech, um, modernisation and
S2: expenditure budgets. But we wanted to go broader than that
S2: and we thought, look, there's a huge amount of innovation globally, uh,
S2: particularly through Australia and Asia. PAC and the managing partner
S2: was thinking, well, how do we service that section of
S2: the market And how do we get access to that
S2: section of the market? And I think the the default
S2: strategy by some large corporate law firms are, well, when
S2: one of these high growth innovation companies grows up and
S2: is a is a unicorn or a decacorn or worth
S2: a lot of money, then we can start to service
S2: them and provide excellent, um, legal services, which many of
S2: them do. But our firm took a little bit of
S2: a different approach and said we would like to partner
S2: with early stage, high growth technology companies, early build a
S2: long term relationship with these companies. So when some of
S2: these companies turn out to be, you know, remarkably successful,
S2: we can take a small amount of pride thinking we
S2: help them along the way, but also we'll have a
S2: trusted advisor relationship, not just being Johnny come lately to
S2: do the billion dollar IPO because they're good at billion
S2: dollar IPOs, which which many of them are. And I
S2: had a small hand in devising that strategy. Um, but
S2: I'm not going to win any McKinsey Awards for strategies,
S2: because that is what what, um, most Silicon Valley law
S2: firms do. They they go in, they work, provide excellent
S2: service to these high growth companies. And then some of
S2: them turn out to be wildly successful and will have
S2: long term, um, relationships with these companies. And in terms
S2: of how we think about that from a client perspective, um,
S2: you can be a high growth startup or whatever stage
S2: you are and have a small law firm when you're small,
S2: a medium law firm when you're medium size, maybe a
S2: national law firm when you're national, and then an international
S2: law firm when you when you go above and beyond
S2: Australia or whatever your home jurisdiction is. We would like
S2: to say it might make sense to consider partnering with
S2: someone that is global from the beginning, um, and providing
S2: the best advice you can obtain from early days. And
S2: then we'll be with you the whole journey. Yeah. Um,
S2: and we, we think that we were a little bit
S2: different in in that approach. There are a couple of
S2: other firms in Australia that do that, but the vast
S2: majority don't.
S1: Right. So your day to day life, like just give
S1: us a quick glimpse into the day in the life
S1: of Stu Dillard. Ashurst partner.
S2: Okay. Well, look, I like to get my exercise in early,
S2: so I sort of the alarm goes off or sort
S2: of something starting with a five and go for a
S2: cycle or walk the dog or go to the gym.
S2: And then I'm usually at the desk at home, um,
S2: from before 8:00. I like to to do my quiet
S2: thinking and delegation work early, so I very rarely will
S2: I take a meeting between 8:00 and 11. I think
S2: if you're going to give a lawyer a fighting chance
S2: of doing something in the day, the least you can
S2: do is give her or him instructions before ten in
S2: the morning. So I try to do that, and then
S2: usually from 11 till 5 or 6, I'll be on
S2: calls or in meetings. Um, walk the dog again, as
S2: he reminds me, if I forget to do that up in, uh,
S2: up in the Paddington five ways Park between 5 and
S2: 6 and then, um, just get whatever needs to be
S2: done towards the end of the day. And that usually
S2: involves signing off on work that my team has done.
S1: But I mean, how active, you know, partners still do
S1: the work. I mean, that's maybe what some of the
S1: audience doesn't understand. I mean, like, you don't sit in
S1: having tea at the Ritz, handing out, uh, work to
S1: your juniors like you are actually on the tools.
S2: Yeah, yeah. Yes. In this jurisdiction, definitely. Maybe there are
S2: others where you get to play a lot more golf. Um,
S2: I'm pretty lousy at golf, so I don't need to
S2: do that, but. No, no, look, I, I would still, um.
S2: I'm not going to number the hours, but still do.
S2: The vast preponderance of my day would be, um, negotiating
S2: transactions on on calls with the other side or explaining
S2: the documents to the client, reviewing the work and signing
S2: off on it. So, yeah, look, there's definitely some going
S2: to the odd lunch. I won't lie, I do like
S2: a sushi lunch, um, down at MLC, but the vast
S2: preponderance of the day is is being on the tools
S2: which which actually suits me just fine. Um, I think, um,
S2: there's a book called The Pinstripe Prison that Lisa Perry wrote.
S2: She's a she was, um, a journalist, I think, for
S2: many years with S.m.h.. She got a perfect score in
S2: the school certificate and thought I'd rather than do journalism.
S2: I'll do law because I've got this perfect mark and
S2: then study law. And then, um, went into a law
S2: firm because she didn't want to waste her first class
S2: honours degree in law by being a journalist. She went
S2: into a law firm, and she woke up one day
S2: and said, why am I a lawyer? I've always had
S2: this passion for journalism and I didn't want to waste Mark.
S2: So she wrote this brilliant book about how a lot
S2: of people go into law consulting, uh, or investment banking
S2: because they don't want to waste marks and they wake
S2: up one day thinking, I never really wanted to do
S2: this job. I was passionate about maybe something in Stem
S2: or startups or journalism or something that required a slightly
S2: lower high school. Um, Mark. But I think I'm in the, the, um,
S2: the fortunate minority that actually really love being a lawyer. Um,
S2: I really like the people I work with. I like
S2: the team, and I like being on the tools. For me,
S2: it's a little bit like, um, putting a puzzle together
S2: is getting a document right to make it elegant to
S2: to meet whatever challenge you're trying to do.
S1: And what about the mix of work? Like, how do
S1: you bucket it? I mean, it's not all fundraising. It's
S1: probably not all M&A. I mean, like, general legal, like. Yeah,
S1: give us a bit of a pie chart of your, uh,
S1: of your, uh, work.
S2: Yeah. So look, I'd say probably 60% up would be, uh,
S2: fundraising either investor side but mainly company side. Uh, and
S2: then the 40% of the remaining 100 would be 30%
S2: would be, um, M&A. So helping technology companies buy other
S2: companies run sale processes or sometimes acting for large corporates acquiring.
S2: And then I do for my sins. I run the uh,
S2: the company's technology and high growth Esop plan, which is
S2: the the most broken part of the startup legal field,
S2: and then just dealing with general inquiries from, um, from
S2: sort of high growth companies, whether they need a referral
S2: to an employment agreement, you know, to an employment partner
S2: dealing with some IP license. I don't do work that
S2: I don't specialize in, but I do, um, ride shotgun
S2: on some of those calls and just make sure that
S2: it it dovetails in with the broader strategy.
S1: And why do you say that about the Esop?
S2: I think esops are complicated in terms of law. There's
S2: securities law. There's tax law. There's payroll and state based law.
S2: And then there's the contract law. And I don't fully
S2: understand why I think most people don't understand it. But
S2: most people think I'll download something off the internet, or
S2: I'll go to one of these providers that gives it
S2: for free or as a bonus, and I just or
S2: I can get it for less than $5,000, and I
S2: don't want to spend more money if I can spend less.
S2: So as a practitioner, I would make Ten-x is probably
S2: too much, but a lot more money fixing broken esops for,
S2: you know, scale up companies that realize they've massively underinvested in,
S2: in that, um, aspect of their, um, you know, their,
S2: their services provisions and they really need to fix it
S2: because these people are critical to the business and they've
S2: maybe underinvested in that. Um, I've heard of people talk
S2: of technology debt where you don't get the best technology
S2: as part of your stack, and then later you have
S2: to pay more to, to undo it. I think the
S2: same is true for law. And when there's a fundraising
S2: on or a big sexy deal, like an M&A deal
S2: or an IPO or a fundraising round, everyone's focused on it.
S2: They're happy to get it done right. People have got
S2: an appreciation of making sure that the terms are correct,
S2: but maybe esops are seen as compliance and boring and,
S2: you know, just spend as little on it as possible
S2: and hopefully it works.
S1: And any horror stories you can share? I mean, you
S1: can obviously change the names to protect the innocent, but
S1: I mean, any, uh, bad legal agreements that you've seen
S1: done that ended up with terrible consequences.
S2: Look, I won't name names, but, um, on the bad side,
S2: I would say 8,090% are either not flawed drafting, but
S2: just don't meet the tax concession that they're aimed for
S2: and probably don't meet the securities laws concession. So a
S2: bunch of staff have got hundreds of thousands or millions
S2: of dollars worth of stock and at best, ambiguous tax consequences. Um,
S2: but on the flip side, uh, when you get it right, um,
S2: you know, I've worked on deals where we've structured esops
S2: at the start and we've got the the best available
S2: tax concession that's legitimately on offer to these startups and
S2: dealt with IPOs where there's, you know, north of 300
S2: million in the startup pool. And it's been, you know,
S2: really rewarding to see an entire management team, um, be
S2: rewarded for, you know, jumping into a really risky venture
S2: early doors and having a life changing payoff. So when
S2: it goes right, it can go really right. But when
S2: it goes wrong, um, I guess the same is true
S2: on the flip side. And I think it's a good, um,
S2: sort of trend that we're seeing out of the US.
S2: In the US, there are all these cohorts, um, you know,
S2: you can start really early with the PayPal Mafia. And
S2: even if you look at the number of startups that
S2: have been funded out of the snowflake IPO, um, where
S2: you've got not just tech founders, but, um, you know,
S2: executives have gone into startups that have been, you know,
S2: really successful. There's been a liquidity event and a huge
S2: amount of that capital and expertise is recycled into the
S2: into the startup ecosystem. So I think apart from just
S2: I'm a lawyer and I, you know, generally like to
S2: get things right. I think it's a really important part
S2: of the ecosystem. And you have to give a shout
S2: out to the Tech Council of Australia here. Um, that
S2: did some successful lobbying in reforming the Reforming the way
S2: that at least the securities laws dovetailed in with the
S2: tax laws. I did, you know, bits and pieces of
S2: them and then worked with ASIC on the exposure draft
S2: of that legislation to basically make Esop far more widely
S2: available to staff. And for those staff that did receive Esop,
S2: far more generous in terms of the awards they've gotten.
S2: So the frameworks there in terms of tax and securities law,
S2: it's just now a matter of getting people to be
S2: to take advantage of it.
S1: Yeah. Different question Stu. I mean, I've known you for
S1: a few years now, but I don't think I've ever
S1: asked you this. But why do you love startups?
S2: Yeah. Look, it's a question that I don't reflect on, um,
S2: too much. And I thought you might ask that prior
S2: to today. So I did some, um, reflection before before the,
S2: the podcast. And I think I grew up with really
S2: entrepreneurial parents. They weren't or maybe they were high-growth technology
S2: companies when I was born, but but not not certainly
S2: not the the volume of them. So my parents owned
S2: a bunch of small businesses. They'd either start it themselves
S2: or buy it and develop it and turn it around.
S2: And that was just the environment that that I grew
S2: up in. So from when I was born until when
S2: I finished high school, that's what they did. Um, but
S2: rather than encouraging me to go straight into a startup
S2: or even the family business at the time, they they
S2: sort of encouraged me to work smarter, not harder. Um,
S2: maybe I've hit 50% of that, but time will tell.
S2: So they really encouraged me just to go to university,
S2: indulge as much as I can, um, at university, and
S2: then take a take a career decision after that. So
S2: I studied, um, some economics and finance and as well
S2: as law and then did did a summer internship at
S2: this firm and then did a summer internship at Macquarie Bank.
S2: So I was always sort of had that, um, sitting
S2: on the fence. Do I go into investment banking or
S2: do I go into law? And when I took the
S2: decision to, to go into law, I ended up focusing
S2: on on corporate law and as a junior lawyer in
S2: a global firm, when I was there, you pretty much
S2: just did big ticket M&A or capital markets or IPOs
S2: and rights issues, particularly in the wake of the global
S2: financial crisis. I trained on on all that really exciting stuff.
S2: And then as a number of lawyers, do you go
S2: across to the UK? I did that a bit later
S2: than most because my two year minimum experience sort of
S2: expired in 2008, which was when London was firing, not hiring.
S2: So I went a little bit after that. Um, and
S2: when I was in London, I had the, the experience
S2: of working on some, but also on a bunch of
S2: strategic investment for General Electric into founder led medical device
S2: and technology businesses. So that was injecting capital in return
S2: for shares to fund businesses throughout Europe and then often
S2: to partner with GE for distribution. But it was interfacing
S2: with founder led technology companies. Um, every day. And you
S2: had to be good on the tools for that, as
S2: most lawyers do. But you also had to have respect
S2: and empathy in the way that you communicated the deals
S2: and negotiated, because these were much like technology companies like,
S2: you know, you're dealing with. And these were highly technical,
S2: highly proficient founders that had put 20, 30, 40 years
S2: into their technology. So it was really like you were
S2: sort of, you know, trying to invest in their baby. Uh,
S2: and then I came back to Australia in 2015. Um,
S2: and that was really when VC 2.0 was going. I
S2: was a junior partner, which had no, no clients to
S2: call my own. So I started to to work in
S2: that sphere and to answer the question perhaps a little
S2: bit more directly, what I loved about it was I
S2: got to work for people, and I got to work
S2: directly with, um, the founder and at a really important
S2: time in their their business when they needed to raise capital,
S2: and I had the great privilege of doing a number
S2: of deals and they would only, you know, most founders
S2: do a deal fundraising every one, 2 or 3 years,
S2: depending on the size of the raise and the cash burn.
S2: So I really had a sense of fulfillment that these
S2: were people that really needed good advice and needed someone
S2: good and hardworking and proficient in their corner. And then
S2: when you get to the end of a deal and
S2: they say, oh, gee, you know, I'm glad I didn't,
S2: you know, do that without you or I was so
S2: glad to have you by your side. It's it's a
S2: really fulfilling, you know, role to perform and look, other
S2: clients are also great, but often they're well resourced. They
S2: may have an internal legal team. You're providing specialist skills
S2: or additional resource to complete a large transaction. But I
S2: think when you're acting for high growth technology companies that
S2: are founder led, you can hang up the boots at
S2: the end of the day and thought, look, you know,
S2: I've made a big difference to the transaction and hopefully
S2: a small positive difference to the trajectory of this, this company.
S2: And if you've only got a relatively short time on
S2: this planet and a relatively short time to in your
S2: professional life, I think you want to be doing it
S2: to assist people that are building companies to make a
S2: better tomorrow, which again, which is why our focus is
S2: on high growth technology companies with a with a perhaps
S2: a over indexation on energy transition.
S1: You know, but the reality is and you've seen this,
S1: especially with ten years of working with these people, there's
S1: a lot of rough with the smooth. I mean, like
S1: the startup journey can be fantastic, right? Hopefully more time
S1: than not. But also it can be brutal. I mean,
S1: you must have seen funding deals fall apart in the
S1: last minute and, you know, the person's house or marriage
S1: or whatever is on the line because of it. I mean,
S1: any reflections on on the brutality of startup life?
S2: I think the brutality of startup life for founders, um,
S2: is largely an untold story. There's lots of really good
S2: press about. IPOs and sales and exits and funding rounds
S2: and new products. And that's great. It should be celebrated.
S2: It should be reported on. And it's good news, but I.
S2: I've lost count of the times I've been sitting with
S2: a founder. Just hopefully. Getting a deal over the line
S2: and just saying to them people wouldn't believe. How hard
S2: this was if you told them, if you wrote this
S2: as a book. People would just think it was fiction. Um,
S2: and the amount of risk that these people take, the
S2: amount of energy that goes into it, the stress that
S2: comes with the risk and the energy putting into it,
S2: and they're risking their career. They're risking sort of their,
S2: their family's livelihood. And I think when we went through
S2: probably the first cycle of venture capital, there was a
S2: lot of good intention, there was a lot of funding
S2: out there, and a lot of really smart people moved
S2: in to the industry for all the right reasons. Um,
S2: but then I think some of the harsh realities of
S2: third party financing hit home when some tougher decisions were made.
S2: And that's sort of when, um, when it came home
S2: to roost that, you know, not every startup will have
S2: a happy ending, but, um, I think it's a great
S2: privilege to to work and be in the corner of
S2: some of these founders and say, look, don't don't worry
S2: about this. There's four different ways we can cut it.
S2: Let's go and try. And, you know, some feedback I've
S2: had over the years is like, we don't get why
S2: you're so invested in this process. You're sort of a
S2: third party service provider. But for for me and the team,
S2: we really feel, um, that stress and that angst, um,
S2: you know, and try to move mountains to, to get
S2: the right result.
S1: Yeah. No, I'm seeing here I haven't had many lawyers
S1: in the podcast. Now, that's maybe not true because a
S1: bunch of the VCs are lawyers. And that's a separate
S1: question from why so many lawyers become VCs. But one
S1: of the few lawyers that has been on as a
S1: lawyer was Peter Dunn from HSF Herbert Smith Freehills. Um,
S1: And I know you did some homework at the weekend
S1: and listen to that. So I mean, any reflections on that.
S1: And Peter, I mean, you used to work together and
S1: you're the second lawyer in the show. So, you know,
S1: there's a question in there, but just some maybe reflections
S1: and lack of lawyers in the show and Peter Dunn.
S2: Yeah, yeah. Look, um, Peter would hate me saying this,
S2: but to the extent to which, uh, lawyers can be legends,
S2: he's definitely one of them, particularly in in venture capital
S2: in Australia. Um, we didn't work together as such at
S2: the same firm. Um, Peter, like me, did a few
S2: years in London and Peter, like me, did those two
S2: years at Ashurst prior to, um, when the legacy firm
S2: of Ashurst, Blake, Dawson, Waldron merged with Asher. So we
S2: were different firms at the time, and, um, Peter's got
S2: a few years on me. So he was, um, acting for, um,
S2: Atlassian and the founders there, and then then their successful
S2: family offices while I was still over in London when
S2: I came back, um, I, you know, made an attempt
S2: to to start in this industry in 2015 and had
S2: the good fortune of being on the other side of
S2: Peter on a number of deals. Uh, it was very
S2: easy to, to like Peter. There's a lot of good
S2: lawyers in this country, like Australia, produces a huge number
S2: of excellent lawyers, and unfortunately, are not an equal amount
S2: of fantastic people within that same cohort. So I think
S2: what one of the reasons that that Peter is so good,
S2: in addition to being technically, um, sound, is he's just
S2: a terrific person. He's good to deal with, with clients.
S2: He's good to deal with from the other side. People
S2: like him almost universally. I'm not aware of a an
S2: outlier there, and I certainly did. And he was very
S2: good to me to deal with as a junior partner.
S2: When there were conflicts that arose. He'd he'd refer them
S2: to me because I think he knew there'd be consistency on,
S2: on the other side. So I, you know, oh, no
S2: small amount of the success that I've had in the
S2: last decade of practicing adventure to him, and he's just
S2: been a really good exemplar, I think, for a number
S2: of other practitioners in the space.
S1: Yeah, great. I mean, how big is the pool of
S1: good lawyers who can do sort of start up transactions
S1: in Australia? I mean, is it a dozen? Is it 20?
S1: You don't have to name them, obviously. Apart from. No.
S1: Look I think and Peter Dunn.
S2: No. Look. And I think Peter's Peter's now, um, we
S2: call it a promotion. I think I need to look
S2: up LinkedIn for his official title. I think he's I.
S1: Think general counsel.
S2: Is general counsel and head of corporate development at Safetyculture.
S2: I think I think it's it's impressive.
S1: Whatever it was a couple of years ago, I think
S1: it jumped out.
S2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I um, I, you know, in theme
S2: with him being a terrifically good bloke, he invited me
S2: into the offices and showed me around and had lunch. Nice.
S2: Last month. So that was, that was good. But in
S2: terms of the the lawyers in Australia, look, there's look,
S2: there's lots of really good lawyers. But I think to
S2: answer a slightly different question how many lawyers are there
S2: in Australia that are focused on venture and have a
S2: full time practice in it? I would say, um, there's
S2: probably fewer than half a dozen. Um, really? Yeah. Yeah. So, um.
S1: How many of them are in Sydney?
S2: There's, there's two firms in Sydney and then one in
S2: Sydney and Melbourne. So I think, you know, um, 5.
S1: Or 6.
S2: Roughly. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, we practice, you know, um,
S2: all over the place. So there's, um, Simon and Dan
S2: at Kendall Gates, who are also just terrifically good people. Um,
S2: there's Avery Gilbert and Tobin, who started up doing some
S2: work on the investment side, and there's Elizabeth and Claire, um,
S2: at Freehills, which is, which is Peter's old firm, and
S2: they've all got, um, they're all great practitioners, all good people,
S2: all practicing full time. But then after after that, it
S2: kind of it's it's it's varied.
S1: Let's take a bit more of a macro position. Like
S1: when the climate we're just coming to the end of 2024,
S1: if you're listening to this later and it's been a
S1: tough few years, I mean, there has been a lack
S1: of liquidity. The economic climate has been hard. Inflation has
S1: been high. Interest rates are high. There's been some geopolitical risks.
S1: There's been some US election uncertainty. I mean, most a
S1: lot of that I mean the US election is kind
S1: of at least not uncertain. We're not going to have
S1: an insurrection, I don't think, in January. I mean, how
S1: are you and the firm thinking about the next year
S1: or two from that macroeconomic perspective?
S2: Look, I think I think we're hopeful and I can't
S2: speak universally for the firm, but at least from a
S2: macro Australian perspective, I'd be optimistic that we're through some
S2: of the worst of it. Um, you know, interest rates
S2: now at least seem to be stabilizing. If you look
S2: at the forward yield curve, you know the math will
S2: tell you there's more chance of an interest rate drop, um,
S2: than an increase, which would provide some relief and perhaps, um,
S2: some optimism, I think, for the Australian startup ecosystem. What
S2: I would look to as well and cut through benches
S2: do an outstanding job of this. And there's some other
S2: data out there as well is that there's I think,
S2: you know, probably since 2015, there's been a larger alternatives allocation, um,
S2: from super and high net wealth into venture funding. Um,
S2: so previously I think alternatives was private equity and some
S2: infrastructure asset funds, and there's been an increasing amount of
S2: capital flowing into venture as part of that alternatives allocation.
S2: And so long as there's funding flowing into the top
S2: of the funnel of the the venture capital cycle. Then
S2: there will still be venture capital funds out there that
S2: are well funded. Those venture capital funds will work day
S2: and night to find good opportunities, and if there's funding
S2: for good opportunities, there will still be an incentive for
S2: the individual to go out there and take a punt
S2: to to leave their high profile job and take the
S2: plunge into starting a startup. So I think there's a
S2: robustness to the Australian ecosystem from that perspective, because they're
S2: still sizable capital flowing into the top of the funnel.
S2: Perhaps a more micro level, I think obviously, you know,
S2: 2022 was just brutal, like really, really tough year. I
S2: think 2023, we started to see that stabilise. Q4 2023
S2: I think I did half a dozen rounds of more
S2: than 25 million just off the top of my head.
S2: And then we're at now the back end of 2024.
S2: And we're still we're seeing, you know, doing 3 or
S2: 4 rounds with us investors leading and another 3 or
S2: 4 with US investors participating. I'm seeing Co-sell. So co-sell
S2: co-investment from some of the super funds with, um, some
S2: of the larger venture funds. A good diversity of of
S2: funding across the spectrum. So still working on a bunch
S2: of pre-seed rounds of one and 2 million. Still working
S2: on a bunch of seed rounds. But we are still
S2: seeing we are now seeing founders come out doing series A,
S2: series B rounds of 20 to 50 million, where 18
S2: months ago, the markets were so low that no rational
S2: founder would put their head out and raise such a
S2: large amount of capital when valuations were so depressed. To
S2: the extent to which listed capital markets are a leading
S2: indicator of private market valuations. We're seeing, you know, obviously
S2: the the rebound of tech valuations in the US and
S2: Australia since 2022. So where that gets me is I think,
S2: you know, perhaps there was a little bit too much
S2: heat in the market in 2122. Really, it came off
S2: a lot. 23 was rebalancing. And, you know, my take
S2: would be 2024 seems to have been reverted. So there's
S2: good funding conditions out there for good companies. The eco
S2: system is getting older. So there are some genuine scale
S2: up companies and there's good competition for those. And are you.
S1: Getting any mandates or any potential mandates for IPO work.
S2: Not not a huge amount. There, there. There's a number
S2: of IPOs in the pipeline. The majority of those have
S2: been backed up and are not high growth technology companies.
S2: The last IPO I worked on that met that criteria, um,
S2: was the judo bank IPO, which was sort of, I
S2: guess Q3, Q4 2021. Right.
S1: Yeah. God, that feels like a long time ago, doesn't it?
S2: Yeah. It was interesting doing a, you know what, $2.6
S2: $6 billion IPO from lockdown with, you know, for joint
S2: lead managers with, you know, umpteenth zoom and and teams
S2: call with the Brady Bunch cubes there.
S1: Yeah. And what about secondaries. I mean can we be
S1: talking about that as a trend. I mean we've seen
S1: a little bit more activity I suppose recently, but. Yeah.
S1: How much are you seeing that secondaries world.
S2: Uh, I would say. Most of the deals I'm doing
S2: north of $20 million have a small secondary component. So
S2: I think.
S1: The mostly for the founder.
S2: Mostly for the founder. Angels. Yeah, mostly for the founders. Um,
S2: and and sometimes for the angels. I'm doing rounds with
S2: all of those at the moment. And what we're seeing
S2: is some of the angels are coming up to the
S2: end of their, um, ten, ten year early stage innovation
S2: concession period, which is the the CGT ten year holiday. Um,
S2: so we are seeing some angels agitate for that.
S1: So if you don't sell within that ten years, then
S1: it's null and void. Is that right?
S2: No. I think if you sell within that ten years,
S2: you've got the holiday. I'm not a tax expert, but
S2: my casual understanding is that you just look and reset
S2: the cost base of the ten years. So if you
S2: bought a share ten years ago for a dollar, and
S2: then today it's worth $10 and your ten year holiday expires,
S2: then the value of that share is taken to $10.
S2: And if you sold it for $12, then your capital
S2: gain would be two, not 11. Got it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
S2: That sounds. But do do do seek tax advice from
S2: your own qualified practitioner, not some bootleg corporate lawyer.
S1: Yeah. Uh, and the appropriateness. I mean, like, in the
S1: old days, people were, you know, funders or new funders
S1: in particular were kind of thought giving away secondaries to
S1: founders was not a good thing to do. I mean,
S1: I'm certainly not of that opinion, but, you know, this
S1: is maybe an opinion piece, but I mean, do you
S1: think taking money off the table is the right thing
S1: to do for a later stage founder?
S2: I think taking some money off the off the table, um, is,
S2: you know, perfectly defensible for a founder. Um, it's usually coming,
S2: goodness me, sort of five, six, seven years into the
S2: journey for the vast preponderance of the ones I'm seeing,
S2: it's 1 or $2 million, which is, I don't know
S2: what the median house price in Sydney is, but it's
S2: not like they're buying an island and playing golf three
S2: days a week. It's probably that they've been on a
S2: drastically below market, um, salary for half a decade. And
S2: they're taking, you know, a million, million and a half,
S2: maybe $2 million off the table to retire debt on
S2: their primary residence or buy a house. By now, they
S2: might have a couple of kids that they're looking for,
S2: a second or third bedroom and, you know, a small backyard.
S2: It's it's I haven't seen anyone, you know, take off
S2: retirement level money. And when I see the support of
S2: the venture community. By that I mean the the venture
S2: capital investors. They're broadly supportive of that. So the company's
S2: gone from nothing to being worth $100 million or more.
S2: And the founders are taking, you know, 1 or $2
S2: million off the table each after, you know, four or
S2: 5 or 6 years. Um, I think that's just fine.
S2: And it's always nice when the rounds oversubscribed and the
S2: company's got enough money and there's investors wanting more money
S2: than it's available. Yeah. So providing some liquidity to the
S2: founders and to the early stage investors and and potentially, um,
S2: the Esop that's past its vesting and the company's steady state. So,
S2: you know, I think Canva is obviously perhaps in its
S2: own class in terms of the, the volume of secondaries
S2: we're seeing coming out of that. But I'm sort of
S2: talking more about series A and series B companies in
S2: this context.
S1: Uh, stew, being a lawyer has got, you know, it's
S1: a reputation for working crazy long hours. And I'm sure
S1: you would have grown up in especially in London. Uh,
S1: you know, when you were there. It was hard, I'm sure.
S1: And you, I'm sure, have pulled. You've probably lost count
S1: of the number of all nighters. You've you've had to
S1: stay up. Is that still the case or is, uh,
S1: you know, because a super tired lawyer is probably not
S1: an effective lawyer, which is why you do your work
S1: first thing in the morning after a good night's sleep. Like,
S1: how are working practices now versus how they were when
S1: you were a junior lawyer?
S2: Yeah. Look, I still think it's an issue that the
S2: industry grapples with. I think one of the benefits of
S2: working in a venture capital practice is it tends not
S2: to be that all consuming M&A deal that would suck
S2: 20 hours out of every team member's day. The volume
S2: of work that goes into your traditional Seed series A,
S2: series B fundraise, just in terms of the sheer hours
S2: is less, um, when it gets difficult, which it does sometimes,
S2: is when you've got a number of deals all on
S2: roughly the same timeline, for example, coming up and up
S2: and the founder wants to close for Christmas. Which is.
S2: Which is apt for the last week of November. But
S2: to give a real life snapshot of it, I think
S2: for for our team, I would like to say three
S2: nights a week, I'd love for the team to be
S2: out of the office before 630. Now that that won't
S2: be three nights a week like clockwork. You know, every
S2: week of the year. Some weeks it'll be a bunch
S2: of late nights, and then some weeks there'll be no,
S2: no late nights. But I entirely agree with the sentiment
S2: that to to do your best work, you need a
S2: good night's sleep and you need not to be doing
S2: it super late at night. But I also think there's
S2: been a big shift, um, in generations and generational expectations
S2: about what people want from their career. I think the
S2: vast majority of corporate lawyers that joined the firm when
S2: I did wanted to work their guts out and become partner.
S2: And now, I would say the majority of graduates into
S2: top tier law firms want to come to the firm,
S2: work hard, get some good expertise, train with some good
S2: some good lawyers, get some exposure to interesting work, and
S2: then make an assessment of what's right for them. I
S2: don't think there's that same, um, cohort of people that
S2: just want to do whatever it takes, you know, 10
S2: to 15 years to make partner and then do do
S2: the work after that. I mean, that.
S1: Sounds from the outside, healthy. Is that true? Or would
S1: you rather see them come in and say, I want
S1: to be a partner?
S2: Oh, look, I think I think there's, there's there's pros
S2: and cons to that. I don't think it's a, it's
S2: a later messier, um, either way. But I do think
S2: that the way that technology will be affecting the legal industry,
S2: you know, in the next, you know, three, five, ten
S2: years will mean there'll be massive efficiencies, which will hopefully
S2: lead to better cost outcomes for clients, but also less, um,
S2: boring work for, for junior lawyers and means they can
S2: do it far more effectively.
S1: Yeah, I mean, that's just throwing up the thought bubble. Uh,
S1: in fact, this would have been probably the only podcast
S1: in the last three years that hadn't asked about AI.
S1: But I should ask it now. You've touched on it
S1: like how are you? And how have you seen other
S1: major law firms grappling with AI and how are you
S1: using it?
S2: Yeah, I think from the outset, as a macro industry comment,
S2: I think the legal industry has been far less affected, um,
S2: than than other industries have. But that is not to
S2: in any way suggest that we'll be somehow immune. So
S2: we've rolled out AI platforms. Now, if you read Ashurst
S2: Standard Terms and Conditions, which is a riveting read, there's
S2: in big, bold, highlighted terms that we are authorized, um,
S2: to use AI tools and applications in part of the
S2: delivery of the services to you. So we are using
S2: that as a firm, but we've been using it for
S2: when it wasn't called AI for, for, for, for many,
S2: many years. Whether it's review of documents, chronologies, um, automated diligence, uh,
S2: automated document production, all kinds of things like that. Um,
S2: but I think now we're, you know, with the advent
S2: of ChatGPT and generative AI and I've seen, you know, um,
S2: legal services provided, I think that's got the capacity to say, right,
S2: get me a really good first draft of something that
S2: maybe would have taken someone 2 or 3 days almost instantly.
S2: So we'll be looking more at checking the final work
S2: and training ourselves on the input to the tools. And
S2: I think for perhaps, um, law firms that are corporate
S2: law firms that play in a different sort of segment
S2: of the market, they'll be able to roll out, you know, really, really,
S2: really good quality, cost efficient services for people that don't
S2: demand the same amount of lawyer time advice and advisory work. So,
S2: you know, if I had a crystal ball, maybe I'd
S2: say in a decade, the the role of a corporate
S2: lawyer or a venture capital lawyer will be providing the
S2: strategic advice, the deal structuring and then confirming the output
S2: of whatever's generating it, whether it be a human or
S2: I or I, with the assistance of a human, will be,
S2: you know, far more, um, high value relationship advisory work
S2: and far, far fewer hours on the document production side
S2: of things.
S1: Uh, Stu, I think you said either today or when
S1: we had lunch the other day, that you tend to
S1: act for the founders more than you do for the investors.
S1: Is that deliberate? Do you prefer founders to the investors?
S1: Like who? Yeah. Which one gives you more of a buzz?
S2: Oh, look, I you know, it's like asking a parent
S2: which of their children they prefer. Um, but no, look,
S2: I think I think my practice. I should probably have
S2: better numbers on this, but I would say it's probably
S2: 60 to 70% founder work. And then, uh, the remainder
S2: investor work, the investor work is pretty evenly split between, uh,
S2: offshore venture funds, domestic venture funds and corporate venture capital Clients. Um,
S2: so I think, look, just transparently, honestly, acting for a
S2: founder is more fulfilling on a human level. Investors are great, right?
S2: They're well resourced. They're doing this day in, day out.
S2: They know what their expectations are. Many of them now
S2: have excellent, um, in-house lawyers that provide the instruction and,
S2: you know, go through the decision making process. So I
S2: like to think of them as well oiled machines who
S2: you're providing expertise and, and, and resource to, um, which
S2: is quite different to acting on the founder side of
S2: the table where, you know, they don't have an in-house counsel,
S2: they don't have a well oiled machine. This isn't the
S2: fourth deal they're doing this month. This is the one
S2: deal they're doing this in this two year period. So
S2: in that sense, um, on a personal level, it's, um,
S2: it's quite fulfilling, particularly when in every, every deal has
S2: its bumps and nuances and, and issues to, to navigate.
S2: But when you're on a deal, that's really important. Maybe
S2: the company's really critically in need of the funding. Sometimes
S2: when the company is critically in need of the funding,
S2: the financiers are aware of that pressure. And, you know,
S2: having someone that can stand shoulder to shoulder with the
S2: founder and help them navigate through the bumps and the
S2: potential issues. At the end of that, you get a
S2: sign of, oh, wow, that was touch and go there
S2: for a while. I'm so glad that we we got
S2: through it. Um, is is more rewarding on a personal
S2: level than, um, than, you know, doing the deal of
S2: the year for some other great fund that, you know,
S2: probably would have been able to do the deal just
S2: as well without you. But I think when you're on
S2: the founder side, you can feel like you've contributed a
S2: little bit more.
S1: Uh, right. I'm getting to the end of my questions here, Stu.
S1: So let me ask. This might be the last one. Um,
S1: but you've been a lawyer for a number of years. Uh,
S1: and working in this, I guess, high growth founder venture
S1: space for at least ten years now, you know, so
S1: you've seen a lot. You've seen great deals, bad deals,
S1: great founders, maybe not so good founders. Any advice from
S1: all that pattern matching? If we've got a listener here
S1: who is about to embark on their startup journey, any
S1: advice to them, either with a legal lens on it
S1: or not, or just with a Stu Dillard lens?
S2: No. Look, I think the advice that I would give
S2: and what I see, um, be most successful are founders
S2: that can build a really good team right there, the
S2: kind of leaders that are not only brilliant, but they
S2: engender this sense from their team of purpose, and they
S2: just want to do their best for that founder, for
S2: that business. Because every business grows to a stage where
S2: it's just impossible for the founder to to be everywhere.
S2: And I think the, the really wonderful founders I've seen
S2: are the ones that can communicate their message and just
S2: deal with individuals, even on a one on one basis,
S2: rather than some big town hall meeting where there's, you know,
S2: 500 people banging on the desk. But just to engender
S2: a sense of loyalty and purpose and work ethic. And
S2: when you see that in practice, you find yourself going, oh,
S2: I want to do my best for this, for this person.
S2: I really want to make sure they they get a
S2: good result. So, you know, as a, as a lawyer
S2: and I've got a small team, I practice for a
S2: decade and all I really focused on was being the
S2: best lawyer I could be, knowing all the law I
S2: could be and knowing sort of all the, the tricks
S2: in the, the legal toolbox. And it was something I
S2: massively under-invested in and I definitely don't have that inherent skill.
S2: But as I've worked with some really successful founders, you
S2: can see the way they interact with people. They've obviously
S2: they've often got a really high level of empathy. It's
S2: often genuine. Yeah. Um, and I think if, if people
S2: focus on that, not only the milestone, the growth rate,
S2: the success, the product market fit, all those things that
S2: are undeniably important. But if you spend some time on
S2: team selection and then watering the garden, that is your team,
S2: I think that's sort of the thing that I've seen, um,
S2: to be the biggest hallmark of success.
S1: Yeah, I lied to you. I've got one more question
S1: I forgot to answer earlier. Azure sponsors a few things.
S1: So Apple is one of them, uh, which used to
S1: be called Heads Over Heels. So it's basically a way
S1: to to help women network better get them more connected. Um,
S1: why why is that a passion project? Is that, uh,
S1: I mean, gender in tech is hard. I don't know
S1: whether it's the same in law. So, I mean, where's
S1: the gender passion coming from?
S2: Yeah. Look, I think it's a thing that the, the
S2: firms are really passionate about for many years. And I'll
S2: pay homage to our global CEO Paul Jenkins, who when,
S2: when I raised this with him. Um, he was just
S2: all about it. He's, um, he's a member of Committed
S2: to Change, which is a collection of CEOs that are
S2: across industries that are, um, committed to to rebalancing the
S2: gender imbalance that exists in so many industries and laws. Definitely, um,
S2: not immune from that. So it's a big it's a
S2: big passion project for the firm, for Paul and for me.
S2: So when we had the opportunity to partner with them
S2: in a meaningful way, we did. And I think the
S2: the work in which they do and the way they target, um,
S2: the identification that a number of female founders, you know,
S2: don't have the same network and they don't have that same, um,
S2: community around them. And for people to come together for
S2: us to, to do that, to contribute, but for us
S2: to expand our networks to it, because law firms are
S2: good connectors. We've got clients and contacts across industry, often
S2: at quite a senior level. It just made complete sense
S2: to us, um, to, to partner with them on, on
S2: the good work they do. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. And you've also partnered with innovation Bay. I mean,
S1: it's not the reason you're on the show. We had
S1: you anyway. But I mean, you came along to our
S1: event in Darwin. You've been enthusiastic. I guess you've been
S1: on the sidelines for a little bit, but now you're
S1: inside the tent. Any observations on on us. This sounds
S1: like a bit of a Dorothy Dixer, but, um. Yeah.
S1: What's your observation in our community?
S2: Yeah. Look, I think I had the good fortune of
S2: going away, um, with the founder cohort, and I can
S2: honestly say it's the least corporate, um, networking, sponsorship, community
S2: based event that I've ever been to. Often it's in a,
S2: you know, a law firm office with canopies and, you know,
S2: sparkling water and chardonnay and the rest of it. So
S2: to go out to, to Katherine Gorge and to effectively
S2: exhale for a couple of days and, um, and be
S2: part of that was pretty special. I felt fairly apprehensive
S2: going as as a corporate lawyer. As a corporate partner,
S2: I'm acutely aware that, you know, while I might, you know,
S2: spend some time down in the trenches helping them out
S2: on a fundraise, I haven't, you know, given up my job,
S2: put my family's livelihood on the line. I've been supporting
S2: some founders, but I haven't dealt with the the stress
S2: and the anxiety that it is. So going into that,
S2: I was apprehensive that it's like, what's this corporate lawyer
S2: doing here? He wouldn't have any appreciation of what it is.
S2: So for the first little while, I just sort of
S2: kept to myself and remembered my grandfather's advice that you've
S2: got two ears and one mouth and try to use
S2: them in that same proportion. Um, but after, um, a
S2: little while, you know, you sort of get to hear
S2: people's stories. And for me, it was a fair bit
S2: of listening and then, um, interact with people on a
S2: more human level. And I think that's the for me, um,
S2: that's the key distinguishing, um, feature of innovation Bay. I mean,
S2: there's a good cohort of people. There's, you know, probably
S2: some corporate benefit and deals that get done. But I
S2: think it genuinely tries to eschew that and say, like,
S2: let's just leave the ego and the the job at
S2: the door and try to actually figure out why we're
S2: here and meet some good people. And if good things
S2: come from that, that's great. But that's not the main reason.
S1: It's good to hear. I mean, our philosophy is that
S1: you're before you're a founder, an investor or a lawyer.
S1: You're a human, you know? So bring the best humans
S1: together and get them to learn from each other. And,
S1: you know, that's if we're all better humans. It's a
S1: better society.
S2: Yeah. And I think, look, the vast, vast preponderance of
S2: people that are in the Australian venture community, whether it's
S2: a corporate, a fund or a founder, I, I think
S2: their heart is in the, in the most part for
S2: the right place. Some people won't get along. There's going
S2: to be not just altogether bad actors, but some people
S2: do the wrong thing, you know, different times. But in
S2: the overwhelming majority of cases. I think, you know, the
S2: people in, in this part of the world practicing in
S2: this space have have got their heart in the right place. Yeah.
S1: All right, look, that's, uh, that's the end of our
S1: formal part, Stu. So thank you. Uh, that was great.
S1: I loved hearing that story and some of your insights. Uh,
S1: quick fire round. So I know you were feverishly writing
S1: these down before we started. So can you give us
S1: a glimpse into your favorite book?
S2: Okay. I'll go two. Okay. Fiction. Fiction.
S1: Non fiction. Great.
S2: Love it. Um, and maybe that'll cut down on the back, but, um,
S2: the Goldfinch for fiction. I think that's just a beautifully
S2: written book. Please don't watch the movie. Read the book.
S2: It's one that that will engross you and, um, take you.
S1: Is that recent.
S2: Book? No, no, I think it was published maybe a
S2: decade ago. The Goldfinch by Donna Tartt. Yeah, she's a brilliant,
S2: brilliant writer. Um, and then one of the best sort
S2: of nonfiction I've read recently, and I do read mainly non-fiction.
S2: Being a lawyer, I've got a personality disorder, obviously, but, um,
S2: the I think the book is called Time to Breathe
S2: by Bill Mitchell. Bill Mitchell's a practicing psychologist in the
S2: City of London, and it's a book, um, around a
S2: whole range of techniques to to manage your energy and
S2: empathy and stress levels through the day. And there's some
S2: really practical tips, like maybe not taking meetings between 8
S2: and 11, working out when you're most productive, working out
S2: when you need some downtime to sort of treat yourself
S2: in the best way so you can be, you know,
S2: at the the highest level of energy throughout the day
S2: for the people around you. Yeah.
S1: Love it. Uh, what about podcast? Do you listen to
S1: any podcasts?
S2: I'm a sucker for Australian true crime. Um, um. Story.
S2: So the the teacher's pet that the Australian put out. Um,
S2: the sure thing about the insider trading and the Department
S2: of Treasury with the AFR and, um, liar, liar, um,
S2: that the age put out. I, I know I'm a
S2: sucker for those things.
S1: So these are like fixed width if you like almost
S1: documentary series.
S2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they're sort of like, I don't know,
S2: 6 to 8 episodes. Um. Um, there was one called
S2: Bad Blood on Theranos.
S1: Oh, yeah, I remember that one. That was.
S2: Great. Similar, uh, kind of thing. There was a really
S2: the really, really famous one that maybe wasn't Murder Mystery,
S2: which was one of the first serial podcasts, um, um,
S2: about an artist that was accused of murder and then
S2: got convicted and they, they picked apart the, um, the
S2: case on that.
S1: So that's good. I think I've got to get into
S1: those more serialized ones. I mean, I just tend to
S1: find the ones of, you know, people that you like,
S1: and they do it every week. And, you know, whether
S1: it's The Economist or HARDtalk from the BBC, I mean,
S1: there's some good ones like that. But yeah, I probably
S1: do need to try the serialized ones a bit more.
S1: I'll try that one. Thank you. Um, do you have
S1: a favorite news source? I do.
S2: I I've been waking up to Radio National since, you know,
S2: as long as I can remember. There was a brief
S2: time where I, um. I cheated on my loyalty to
S2: Radio National when I lived in London and woke up
S2: to to BBC one or. or BBC London. Um. But no. Look,
S2: I just love Radio National. I think it's a good
S2: sort of snapshot of what's going on in the country. Um,
S2: every morning.
S1: You're a radio one listener. I have pegged you for
S1: radio four, but I guess you were younger and funkier
S1: in London. Is that right? It's hard.
S2: To believe. Yeah, yeah, it's hard to believe. No, no, but, um, I.
S1: Was always really. I was, like, the complete nerd. I
S1: only listened to radio three and four.
S2: Well, I mean, like, back in university, I did have
S2: a DJ set on community radio back then. You could
S2: you could download Pete Tong's, uh, weekly, weekly, um, two
S2: hour session from, you know, whether it was sort of
S2: the DJs that were headlining Creamfields or Paul Oakenfold did
S2: a brilliant one, and then it sort of, um, went
S2: from strength to strength, er and sort of there's some
S2: great CDs like, um, back to mine that are sort
S2: of artists that put together compilations of the kind of
S2: tracks they'd play on if they had an after party
S2: and they invited everyone back to theirs, or Fabric Live,
S2: which is a great, um, club in central London, had
S2: sort of you know, periodic CDs by the, the DJs
S2: that headlined their event.
S1: You know, I think you're the first guest in 200
S1: that suggested a radio show as a news source. So
S1: that's that's good. I love it. Yeah. Uh, do you
S1: have a favorite tech CEO?
S2: No, I can't, I can't, I can't I can't single
S2: out one of the many hundred. Um, I've acted for
S2: I've sort of.
S1: There's ones you haven't acted for then.
S2: Oh, look, it's, um. It's difficult to say.
S1: Do you like Elon?
S2: Look, I read, I read, I read his, um, his, um,
S2: book or Isaac Isaacson's book, rather, um, earlier in the year.
S2: And he's definitely got a unique cluster of personality traits
S2: developed by a unique cluster of early childhood, um, experiences. But,
S2: I mean, like, I think the, the safe bet in
S2: terms of, um, sort of the some of the founders
S2: in Australia, um, and I, I don't have the pleasure
S2: of acting for them. Um, the founders of Canva, I think, um,
S2: there's been a lot written about them. In fact, I
S2: think the, the Australian financial press must have some contract
S2: that they have to write at least one newspaper article
S2: every week about how our funds mark to market their stock,
S2: or there might be a secondary or they're bought and
S2: sold or something. But, um, I think the way in
S2: which they've conducted their business, the success of their business,
S2: the way they've treated their people, and, you know, I
S2: mentioned earlier, um, the way that the extreme wealth generation
S2: that's come from some of those really successful company has, um,
S2: fed back into the ecosystem, I think puts a pretty
S2: bright light on, on the Australian, um, ecosystem. And long
S2: may that continue.
S1: Yeah. No, that's, uh yeah, that's a great call out.
S1: We've had a few for Canberra. That's a popular one. Uh,
S1: what about app? Do you have a favorite app in
S1: your phone?
S2: I do, I, I don't have any social media on
S2: my phone. I deleted that a little while ago because
S2: I found that, you know, until I read the works
S2: of Marcel Proust, I probably don't have time for those. Um,
S2: but the one not time wasting app, but the one
S2: app that I do sort of use for filler times
S2: is the New York Times games app. So I do
S2: try to do the crossword, the hard sudoku, and then
S2: the the easier ones and Wordle. So, you know, that's
S2: something that gets a fair bit of run on the
S2: the iPhone usage time. That's good.
S1: Now what about like the opposite of that then is
S1: a productivity tool. Once you've wasted all that time and
S1: the puzzles like how do you stay efficient?
S2: Well, to be efficient I'll refer you to my first
S2: answer with Time to Breathe by Bill Mitchell. That's a
S2: really excellent practical book. The other thing that's not an app,
S2: but a productivity tool, which is an obvious one, is exercise. Like,
S2: I just need to do exercise every morning. I find
S2: that at the back end of the day, it means
S2: I have no trouble falling asleep and I feel like
S2: I'm looking after myself. Then it can tend to put
S2: things in perspective, get the, um, you know, get the
S2: endorphins up and I'll give a shout out to. I mean,
S2: a big passion of mine is sort of medicine 3.0.
S2: You mentioned podcasting. Huberman, you know, Peter Attia, David Sinclair,
S2: fantastic Australian at Harvard. Um, some of the guys at
S2: Evo Lab, which I've just signed on to, um, as
S2: a user, are doing some fantastic, groundbreaking work with bringing, um,
S2: all that, you know, refereed journal studies into a very,
S2: very practical application. And they're providing it as a service
S2: in Australia. So I am just blown away, um, by
S2: Sam and the team at Evo Lab, and I think
S2: they're fantastic.
S1: Great TV show. Do you watch tele?
S2: This is the easiest.
S1: Oh, yeah.
S2: The easiest one. Like suits. Yeah. No, I know I
S2: look West Wing. If I could just watch West Wing,
S2: you know, at the beginning of every year and watch
S2: all seven seasons. And you said you weren't allowed to
S2: watch any other television. I'd be a happy camper. I
S2: can't think of the my second favorite TV show. So
S2: I'm a little bit of a, um, a Aaron Sorkin tragic.
S2: He's he's he's written some other, um, excellent TV shows,
S2: but that's, uh, that was a very easy one for me. Yeah.
S1: That's great. All right, last question. Uh, if you were
S1: asked to do a Ted talk, what would you do
S1: it on?
S2: I feel uniquely unqualified to to give, uh, to give
S2: anything exciting, um, about this, but I it would have
S2: to be, um, on sort of some of the highs
S2: and lows and the founder journeys, um, you know, if
S2: I could get consent from all the founders to tell
S2: some of the, you know, highs and lows of their stories, um,
S2: on the, you know, the ups and downs of venture
S2: capital fundraising. Um, I think that would be one thing
S2: that I'd have some, some good insights on.
S1: All right. Stu. So if anyone wants to find out
S1: more about you or Ashurst or, um, you know, where
S1: can they find you?
S2: Sure. I think, uh, just Google Stuart Ashurst. It's got my.
S2: It's got the firm. The firm website there. Shoot me
S2: an email and, um, we'll come back to you as
S2: quickly as possible.
S1: Yeah. Love it. Uh, Stu. Thank you. Appreciate your time.
S1: Thanks for the office as a studio. And, uh. Yeah. Thanks, everyone,
S1: for listening. Thank you.