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Speaker 1: For September eighth of this year, and because he was appointed,

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Speaker 1: has to run for reelection next year. But we'll see

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Speaker 1: if we can't accomplish that, and of course we'll be

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Speaker 1: talking to him about his election next year in the

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Speaker 1: calendar year. But in the meantime A Shenanigan's Declaration. Judge

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Speaker 1: McDowell told me at Listener lunch he was at Jim

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Speaker 1: and Jackson the River and not sure appreciate the opportunity

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Speaker 1: to meet him and have him come to lunch, but

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Speaker 1: it was my concern over what he told me at

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Speaker 1: Listener lunch, and we're boiling it down here in the

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Speaker 1: morning show lingo as a Shenanigan's Declaration. Before we get

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Speaker 1: to that, Judge McDowell, it's a pleasure to having you here.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, you and.

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Speaker 1: I are basically about the same age, at least based

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Speaker 1: upon your legal resume and what an impressive career you have.

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Speaker 1: I feel like a piker. You are what I and

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Speaker 1: the litigant. I was a litigation attorney. I guess theoretically

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Speaker 1: I still am considering. I have my license, but I

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Speaker 1: don't practice anymore. You are what we lawyers call a

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Speaker 1: true trial attorney.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a difference, a huge there's a difference. I've

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Speaker 2: spent a lot of time in courtrooms, both as a

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Speaker 2: prosecutor and as a defense attorney, also in civil cases,

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Speaker 2: a plaintiff side and defense side. There is a big

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Speaker 2: difference between someone who pushes paper and somebody who goes

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Speaker 2: into a courtroom.

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Speaker 1: I acknowledge where I was on that side of the ledger,

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Speaker 1: a paper pusher. But you tried literally hundreds of cases successfully.

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Speaker 1: So and of course I want to give you props

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Speaker 1: for serving your country. I know you enlisted when you

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Speaker 1: were seventeen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I did. I grew up in poverty in southern

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Speaker 2: West Virginia and.

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Speaker 1: The way that's real prov poverty.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's the kind of poverty where you don't

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Speaker 2: have food, and the army was my way out. And

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Speaker 2: I enlisted in the Army when I was seventeen. And

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Speaker 2: I can tell you everything that I am today is

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Speaker 2: because of the opportunities that were afforded to me by

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Speaker 2: the United States Army. I went to college on the

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Speaker 2: GI bill, I received an ROTC scholarship, I got an

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Speaker 2: educational delay to go to law school, and I got

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Speaker 2: all that great trial experience in the army.

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Speaker 1: And you did a lot of trial work in the

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Speaker 1: army judge advocate general, and you were in court all the.

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Speaker 2: Time I was. I was a military prosecutor in Korea.

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Speaker 2: I was a military prosecutor in Stuttgart, Germany, where I

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Speaker 2: was in charge of Southern Germany, Northern Africa, the former

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Speaker 2: East Bloc countries. Then I was a defense attorney, and

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Speaker 2: then I was finished out my time as a senior

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Speaker 2: defense attorney at Fort Riley, Kansas. Then I came to

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Speaker 2: Cincinnati and I became a partner at Densmore and Shoal,

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Speaker 2: and then I was a partner at Straustroy.

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Speaker 1: It got you to deflect defect. Huh. Strauss and Troy

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Speaker 1: got you to effect from Dinsmore. Yeah. No, it's impressive

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Speaker 1: that you were part of both of those in a

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Speaker 1: decade at both before being appointed by the governor to

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Speaker 1: the Hemilin County Court of Common Pleas, where you do

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Speaker 1: hear criminal cases as well as civil. But going back

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Speaker 1: to your your time as a judge devicate general, this

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Speaker 1: is an illustration of the reality of being an America's military.

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Speaker 1: They put twenty somethings behind the stick of multi multi

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Speaker 1: million dollar aircraft and equipment. Young people or given responsibilities

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Speaker 1: that no response. They use the word responsible. Private corporation

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Speaker 1: would give a young person. No law firm at age

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Speaker 1: twenty two would allow you to go in and try

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Speaker 1: multiple trials. You have to work your way up to

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Speaker 1: that role. That's maybe why you had such great success

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Speaker 1: as a consequence of the American military.

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Speaker 2: Now one hundred percent. One of the problems you find

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Speaker 2: in litigation today is so few cases go to trial,

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Speaker 2: that so few attorneys have that courtroom experience. And in

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Speaker 2: the military we were thrown into the crucible right away.

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Speaker 1: Well, in a comment you made off air before we started,

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Speaker 1: anybody who's practiced law and done courtroom work, you want

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Speaker 1: a trial lawyer as opposed to a litigation attorney or

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Speaker 1: someone who never was involved with courtroom work. You want

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Speaker 1: someone like that on the bench. They've dealt with motions,

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Speaker 1: they have been the attorney advocating on one side or

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Speaker 1: another in front of judges. They know the civil rules,

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Speaker 1: they know evidentiary rules. If you put someone on who

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Speaker 1: maybe was a tax attorney and never saw time in court,

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Speaker 1: and you appoint him to a judge or they're elected

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Speaker 1: as judge, they don't have the necessary foundational experience.

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Speaker 2: That's absolutely correct. And with my resume, I've been both

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Speaker 2: a prosecutor and a defense attorney, done both plaintiffs work

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Speaker 2: and defense work, so I can see it from all sides,

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Speaker 2: and I know when somebody's pulling my leg and when

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Speaker 2: it's a real motion.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I'm certain of that. And your level of experience,

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Speaker 1: There's no way you could have gone that long and

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Speaker 1: been so successful without that acquiring that knowledge. So impressive

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Speaker 1: background it is, and a salute to you for your

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Speaker 1: service work to our country, especially on a day as

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Speaker 1: we part company here for a moment and come back

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Speaker 1: and let him Judge McDowell do the Shenanigans declaration about

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Speaker 1: their clerk at courts. It just so happens to be

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Speaker 1: World War Two veteran Bob Doolan's anniversary of his death.

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Speaker 1: Bob Doolan was installog Lo three that was the site

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Speaker 1: of the Great Escape movie with Steve McQueen. He I

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Speaker 1: got to interview him here in the studio, I got

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Speaker 1: to have lunch with him. Thank you. Steve Murray, who

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Speaker 1: also served as kind is a career military man. He

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Speaker 1: was such just a wonderful human being and I just

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Speaker 1: wanted to honor his passing and his service to our country.

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Speaker 1: Bob Dolan passed away this day in twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 1: We're all better people for having been able to know

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Speaker 1: Bob Doolan's eight thirty five Right now more with Judge

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Speaker 1: Christopher McDowell. Shenanigan's Declaration coming up next. Don't go away.

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Speaker 1: This is fifty five krc an iHeartRadio station with Judge

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Speaker 1: Christopher McDowell. He is on the Himilton County Court of

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Speaker 1: Common please bench. He was just recently appointed, as indicated

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Speaker 1: in the last segment September eighth when he took the

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Speaker 1: bench thanks to an employment by Governor Mike DeWine. Will

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Speaker 1: be voting for him next November. Hate to know that

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Speaker 1: there's an election you have to face it within one

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Speaker 1: year being appointed a bench their I just la oh, well,

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Speaker 1: take what you can get. We're glad you're on the bench,

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Speaker 1: especially in these trying times. We can talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit about the criminal justice system, crime and punishment and

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Speaker 1: maybe bond settings in a little bit, but let's first

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Speaker 1: talk about what you told me at listener lunch at

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Speaker 1: Jim and Jackson. I was very troubled by this so

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Speaker 1: much so that I said, we've got to get you

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Speaker 1: here on the morning, should to talk about it. So

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Speaker 1: what is going on with the felony murder docket, Judge McDowell.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, let's start off with the concept that the sixth

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Speaker 2: Amendment to the United States Constitution makes our trials public,

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Speaker 2: and part of them being public is the people need

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Speaker 2: to know when those cases are going to be heard.

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Speaker 2: Anybody has the right to come and sit in my

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Speaker 2: courtroom and watch what's going on, and that's enshrined in

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Speaker 2: our constitution because of things that were going on in

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Speaker 2: England with the star chambers where people were being tried

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Speaker 2: in secret. Well, what I discovered about a week and

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Speaker 2: a half ago is that I had a murder case,

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Speaker 2: an aggravated murder case in my courtroom and it was

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Speaker 2: very interesting, but there was no media there and I

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Speaker 2: saw one of my go ahead.

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Speaker 1: You and I'm not going to go into the details.

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Speaker 1: You know the details, and whether you need to offer

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Speaker 1: them or not is immaterial. But I got the impression

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Speaker 1: base moment you told me it was a particularly heinous

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Speaker 1: felony murder. It was one that would be very newsworthy

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Speaker 1: if you try to be objective about what's reportable and

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Speaker 1: what's not, or what's newsworthy what's not. This was clearly

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Speaker 1: a newsworthy murder.

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Speaker 2: Right, And I think if you think about all the

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Speaker 2: murders that happen in this city and then think in

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Speaker 2: your mind as well, how many times have I heard

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Speaker 2: what happened to those murderers? How many times have I

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Speaker 2: heard the sentence is compared to the number of murders,

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Speaker 2: And there's a huge disconnect in my mind much And

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Speaker 2: this is one of the reasons why literally half or

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Speaker 2: over half of the aggravated murders on my docket have

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Speaker 2: been removed from the Clerk of Courts website.

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Speaker 1: By what authority is that under any circumstances appropriate? And

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Speaker 1: if so, under what circumstances?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there are reasons why documents and even cases could

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Speaker 2: be removed from the public records, but not that I

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Speaker 2: can determine in this case, And and each time that

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Speaker 2: that occurs, a judge should have to sign off on it.

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Speaker 2: So let's say, for example, you have a drug case

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Speaker 2: and somebody's been arrested and they're working with the police, Well,

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Speaker 2: you want to remove that case from the public record

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Speaker 2: so all his friends don't know he's working with the police,

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Speaker 2: and a murderer doesn't work with the police, he's incarcerated.

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Speaker 2: And this is a case that had gone on for

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Speaker 2: over a year and a half, as are all the

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Speaker 2: murder cases that are on my docta. They've been going

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Speaker 2: on for more than a year. But these cases have

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Speaker 2: been removed. So if you know the name of the

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Speaker 2: defendant and you were to go to the Clerk of

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Speaker 2: quotes's website put it in, it would not come up.

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Speaker 2: If you happen to know the case number and you

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Speaker 2: put it in, it would not come up. And so

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Speaker 2: that is one of the reasons why these cases aren't

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Speaker 2: being covered. They've been removed from the public record. The

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Speaker 2: media and the people don't know when these sentencings are occurring.

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Speaker 1: Do we have any judges signing off on the removal

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Speaker 1: or is this just a blanket removal.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very interesting. So when I started to do

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Speaker 2: my investigation into this, one of the older bailiffs in

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Speaker 2: the courthouse pulled a record for where Tracy Winkler, the

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Speaker 2: last Republican, was a clerk of courts, and on that document,

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Speaker 2: a judge had to sign off if a document or

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Speaker 2: a case was going to be removed from the public

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Speaker 2: docket or the public records there. We've looked at the

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Speaker 2: cases that have been removed from the Clerk of courtse

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Speaker 2: website and we can find no judge sign off so

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Speaker 2: far on any of these.

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Speaker 1: Cases, which leads one to guests that someone is behind

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Speaker 1: the scenes in the Clerker Court's office is unilaterally determined

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Speaker 1: this should not be on the public's docket or the docket.

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Speaker 1: I mean somebody there's a looming phase it the clerker

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Speaker 1: courts himself.

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Speaker 2: Well, the clerk of course is responsible for that. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and the buck stops there. In other words, right, And

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Speaker 2: also judges need to be looking at this. The thing

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Speaker 2: of it is when I look at my docket, when

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Speaker 2: I look at I can see all these these records,

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Speaker 2: so I wouldn't know that it has been removed from

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Speaker 2: the public record.

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Speaker 1: Because you have to try a case. Obviously you're going

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Speaker 1: to be given the information related to it, but you

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Speaker 1: have to look at the regular docket see if that

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Speaker 1: case that's right literally on your desk is there. And

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Speaker 1: as you determined in that fellow murder case, the heinous one,

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Speaker 1: you went over and looked, it's not there. You're like wait,

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Speaker 1: where is this on the docket.

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Speaker 2: Right, which then calls me to tell me. Ask my bailiff,

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Speaker 2: look at all the murder cases on my docket and

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Speaker 2: see how many of them have been removed from the

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Speaker 2: Clerk of Court's website, and it was over half. And

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Speaker 2: then I went to some other judges and discovered similar

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Speaker 2: things on their dockets as well. It's very curious, very curious.

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Speaker 2: But in considering the case where there is a legitimate basis,

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Speaker 2: you have a drug dealer who's working with authorities. They've

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Speaker 2: got suppliers. Clearly you want to get those. That person's

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Speaker 2: life could very well be in jeopardy if it's known

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Speaker 2: that they're in front of you and their case is

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Speaker 2: going to be tried, their name's out there and you

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Speaker 2: know they're working with police. So there's in a murder case.

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Speaker 2: Sadly the victim, which is the one that would need

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Speaker 2: to be protected, is no longer in need of protection.

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Speaker 2: They're not going to be threatened, that's right. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: I asked my clerk at the same time because I

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Speaker 2: had the same thought. I said, look at the rape

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Speaker 2: cases that we have next week and see if those

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Speaker 2: rape cases have been removed from the public docket, and

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Speaker 2: they had.

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Speaker 1: Not, and so they've got a victim there.

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Speaker 2: There you have a real victim. And that real victim

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Speaker 2: is those cases have not been removed from the public record,

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Speaker 2: but just these aggravated murders so far as I can

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Speaker 2: I know so far aggravated murder cases. Now, when I

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Speaker 2: talk to other bailiffs in the courthouse, they tell me

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Speaker 2: they've seen this in some of the renew cases in

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Speaker 2: the past, which is the the drug cases, which which

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Speaker 2: is a good reason I potentially to remove it there.

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Speaker 2: Another reason might be that the police early on in

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Speaker 2: a case, they have an arrest warrant for somebody and

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Speaker 2: they don't want it to be out in the public

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Speaker 2: that they're out looking for somebody. But as soon as

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Speaker 2: they picked that person up, the case should be put

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Speaker 2: back on to the public docket well.

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Speaker 1: And to be in front of you in a case

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Speaker 1: that means it suggests obviously they have been picked up,

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Speaker 1: they have been issued a citation, they've probably been through

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Speaker 1: a bond hearing all ready. This is way way beyond

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Speaker 1: the time when this information should be maybe legitimately held

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Speaker 1: from the public.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the case in question was over a year and

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Speaker 2: a half old.

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Speaker 1: Judgment. McDowell, Am I right in understanding that the current

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Speaker 1: Clerker Courts has been down this road before.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, one hundred percent. What he was doing before

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Speaker 2: was removing the eviction docket cases. So if you'd been

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Speaker 2: evicted from court, he was just removing those and so

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Speaker 2: the municipal court judges had to sue him to get

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Speaker 2: those records put back on to the public docket. The

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Speaker 2: Clerk of Courts does not have the power to unilaterally

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Speaker 2: remove documents from the public records.

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Speaker 1: Let's pause, will bring Judge McDowell back for one more

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Speaker 1: Shenanigan's declaration.

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Speaker 2: Be the talk station.

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Speaker 1: In say forty eight or fifty five KERCD talk station

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Speaker 1: Brian Thomas with Judge Christopher McDowell appointed by Governor de Wine,

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Speaker 1: and thank god for Governor to Wine for at least something.

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Speaker 1: We've got this great judge on the bench, unbelievably experienced

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Speaker 1: and calling him as he sees them. Clerk Courts is

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Speaker 1: apparently hiding a lot of the felony murders from you

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Speaker 1: and me knowing about them. I believe you summed it

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Speaker 1: up this way. You know, if you've got a problem

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Speaker 1: with crime, then maybe one of the ways you try

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Speaker 1: to deal with it. It's just covered up and prevent

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Speaker 1: like it doesn't exist. And that's the problem that a

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Speaker 1: lot of people are saying the city of Cincinnati has.

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Speaker 1: They want to tell you that everything's safe, everything's fine,

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Speaker 1: and yet we keep hearing about the murders, the gunshots,

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Speaker 1: the violence.

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Speaker 2: No follow up.

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Speaker 1: As you pointed out, no one tells you what happened

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Speaker 1: to the purps after they're arrested. But one of the reasons,

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Speaker 1: then what do you do to try to change the narrative?

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Speaker 1: You don't put them on the felony murder dockets, so

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Speaker 1: local news doesn't know that they're actually in front of

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Speaker 1: a judge being tried and maybe convicted. So what is

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Speaker 1: the next step on this? I thought of maybe one

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Speaker 1: of these lawyers out there, maybe like the Chris Finney's

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Speaker 1: of the world, or someone would file suit on this.

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Speaker 1: This is what they do all the time. Is there

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Speaker 1: any legal challenges at play here going after the clerk

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Speaker 1: of courts for hiding these records or what are you

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Speaker 1: planning on doing next by way of steps, judge?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, what I'm going to do is I'm going

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Speaker 2: when these cases are coming before me. Now the law

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Speaker 2: come before me within the next month for a report

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Speaker 2: or for some other matter. I'm going to require. I'm

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Speaker 2: going to give an issue an order to the prosecutor

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Speaker 2: to tell me why this case is not on the

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Speaker 2: public docket, why it is not on the Clerker Court's website,

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Speaker 2: because I don't know why there have been removed, So

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Speaker 2: I don't want to just unilaterally remove it and then

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Speaker 2: there could be somebody in danger, for example. But I'm

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Speaker 2: going to give them an opportunity, and then if they

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Speaker 2: don't provide me with a good explanation for why the

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Speaker 2: sixth Amendment seems to be curtailed in this case, then

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Speaker 2: I'm going to order and put back on the public

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Speaker 2: docket back on the Clerker Court's website where they belong,

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Speaker 2: so everybody knows and can come to court and see

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Speaker 2: how that case ends.

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Speaker 1: And because we have a sixth Amendment, and because the

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Speaker 1: Clerk has been down this road before and ordered to

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Speaker 1: put these records back on, you're on firm legal ground

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Speaker 1: in directing that.

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Speaker 2: You would think, so, yes, sir, well, I.

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Speaker 1: Suppose it would end up in court. Kurt Hartman's name

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Speaker 1: came up too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've known Kurt for a long time. Kurt's a

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Speaker 2: great lawyer, so is Chris Finny. There are a number

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Speaker 2: of great lawyers in the city who I'm sure would

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Speaker 2: love to take up this case. And also you would

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Speaker 2: think the Inquirer Fox News Channel twelve they also would

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Speaker 2: want to take up this case because they're the ones

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Speaker 2: who don't know when the cases are going to be

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Speaker 2: in court.

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Speaker 1: Prior to today, Judge McDowell, they probably didn't know that

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Speaker 1: these were being removed. You just discovered it by virtue

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Speaker 1: of you being on a bench.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for a month, and for a month. I found

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Speaker 2: it out right away, and you would think other people

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Speaker 2: would realize it too, But we'll see. I'll take it

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Speaker 2: to I take the matter very seriously because I think

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Speaker 2: that for our judicial system to work best, the people

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Speaker 2: need to have full access to know. There needs to

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Speaker 2: be full transparency, and also people need to know if

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Speaker 2: aggravated murders are going to prison for life. That should

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Speaker 2: act as a deterrent.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for people, Well, and you just hit the nail

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Speaker 1: on the head in the direction I was going. We're

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Speaker 1: all worried out here, my listening audience. Anyway, you know,

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Speaker 1: the prosecutors seemed to want to do their job on

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Speaker 1: the heels of the police who seem to want to

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Speaker 1: do their job. Bad guy commits crime, police issue citation,

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Speaker 1: panded over the prosecutor's office. They needed a grand jury

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Speaker 1: indictment or not, as the case may be, but they're

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Speaker 1: happy to go to the court. The court seems to

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Speaker 1: be the weak link in the chain. The criminal justice

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Speaker 1: system works because it acts as a deterrent one of

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Speaker 1: other reasons we have one punish the bad guy gives

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Speaker 1: some satisfaction to the victim, the victim's families, But more fundamentally,

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Speaker 1: you offer an out loud message to those who might

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Speaker 1: commit crime. If you do, you're going to be dealt

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Speaker 1: with harshly. Well, modern judicial theory is now, well, it's

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Speaker 1: not their fault. They went out and shot somebody in

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Speaker 1: the head. They had a tough life while and they

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Speaker 1: let them out either on low bond no bond, which

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Speaker 1: sends a very out loud message, much like an open

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Speaker 1: border sends a message that everybody can come into the country,

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Speaker 1: everybody can commit crime. There's not gonna be any consequences,

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Speaker 1: most notably for the juveniles out there.

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Speaker 2: And you also see the repeat offender. You see the

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Speaker 2: people who are out on bond or out on probation,

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Speaker 2: who then commit the same offense or a similar offense,

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Speaker 2: another violent offense, who are then still out on the street,

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Speaker 2: hurting the people of Cincinnati Hamilton County, and we just

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Speaker 2: cannot continue to live that way. Everybody should feel like

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Speaker 2: they can go anywhere in the city that they want,

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Speaker 2: and you can't. There are areas of the city that

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Speaker 2: you can't go because you fear for your life. And

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Speaker 2: a lot of the people that you fear are people

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Speaker 2: who are out on bond, out on probation, and it

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Speaker 2: should not be that way.

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Speaker 1: And they've demonstrated willingness to break the law, and they

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Speaker 1: gleefully do so again knowing that apparently there's not going

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Speaker 1: to be any consequence as well if they're in front

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Speaker 1: of you, Judge McDowell, and I imagine there might be consequences.

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Speaker 1: Appreciate your service to our country and military service, work

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Speaker 1: at the JAG, of course, your storied legal career, all

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Speaker 1: the cases you've tried, and I'm glad you're on the bench.

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Speaker 1: You have a responsible, intelligent official on the bench, one

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Speaker 1: who is offbviously willing to look into Shenanigan's going on

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Speaker 1: in the Clerk Court's office. Judemick dout. You know you

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Speaker 1: got an open form here to give us a follow

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Speaker 1: up and where things are if you find out the

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Speaker 1: reason why the specific person responsible for this was it

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Speaker 1: somebody within the pervoal administration directing the clerk on what

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Speaker 1: to do and not to do. Don't know, but I'm

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Speaker 1: looking forward to finding out. He seems like you're the man.

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Speaker 2: To do it. I'll get to the bottom of it.

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Speaker 1: I have a confidence that you will. Judgemick Doubt's a

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Speaker 1: real pleasure. We'll be looking forward to supporting your campaign

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Speaker 1: for election in November of next year. Keep up the

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Speaker 1: great work on the bench. In the meantime, Best of

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Speaker 1: health and loved you and your family. Oh I got

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Speaker 1: to ask. I know you've only been there for about

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Speaker 1: a month, and I know judges get threats regularly. Have

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Speaker 1: you experienced any of that if you even want to

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Speaker 1: say out loud, because I just worry about that kind

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Speaker 1: of stuff.

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Speaker 2: Well, the first thing is I exercised my second amendment

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Speaker 2: right I figured you did. The second thing is the

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Speaker 2: Hamilton County Chef has been out to my home and

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Speaker 2: they've conducted a full analysis of my home. Good in

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Speaker 2: my area provided me a report as to the weaknesses

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Speaker 2: and the strengths of what I'm doing. And this weekend

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Speaker 2: I was busy installing a home alarm and security system.

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Speaker 2: And you know it's my wife is the one who

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Speaker 2: often bears the burden of it. Of course, you know

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Speaker 2: she she could be home alone. And my wife is

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Speaker 2: a West Point graduate. I met her in the military.

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Speaker 2: She also exercises her she doesn't.

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Speaker 1: Don't mess with missus McDowell. Judge mcdowll, great, heaven you on.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry to put you on a spot like that,

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Speaker 1: but ahead and not because we live in a very

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Speaker 1: very very dangerous world, generally speaking in social media and

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Speaker 1: docsing really makes it that much worse psychologically at minimum,