1
00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,440
Speaker 1: Do you want to be an a Manican idiot? Plenty

2
00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:06,840
Speaker 1: on seven hundred WLW. It's often said that if a

3
00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:09,720
Speaker 1: police officer wants to pull you over and they're looking

4
00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:12,039
Speaker 1: for a reason why, they'll find some. They'll find tall

5
00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,680
Speaker 1: light out, something blinking, touch the fog line, touch center line, signal,

6
00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:18,439
Speaker 1: to early signal too, like something on those like that,

7
00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:19,760
Speaker 1: if they want to they're looking to pull you over,

8
00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:22,480
Speaker 1: the pull you over? Did this just happen to Terry

9
00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:25,720
Speaker 1: Thiji in a much bigger sense? Of course? Cincinnati releasing

10
00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:29,920
Speaker 1: a bombshell report on the police chief in the police

11
00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:32,159
Speaker 1: chief at Limbo may have not been fired yet and

12
00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:36,199
Speaker 1: after six months, roughly six months, thirty two witnesses and

13
00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:39,159
Speaker 1: now a verdict that could end your career. This is

14
00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:41,519
Speaker 1: what the investigation found. This is what an attorney called

15
00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:44,360
Speaker 1: a shameful hatchet job. The information is out and some

16
00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:46,919
Speaker 1: of the highlights we'll get into with Ken Kober, fopre

17
00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:49,760
Speaker 1: president on the show on seven hundred WLW. Safe to

18
00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:52,600
Speaker 1: say Ken that there's not much love lost here. I

19
00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:54,720
Speaker 1: know the rank and found not big fans of Terry Thiji,

20
00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:58,959
Speaker 1: but everyone hates their boss in America pretty much, don't.

21
00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:02,320
Speaker 2: They Yeah, for the most part, that's true. And your

22
00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:05,000
Speaker 2: chiefs are no exception. You have half the rank and

23
00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:07,160
Speaker 2: file will love the chief and the other half won't.

24
00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:09,520
Speaker 2: Let's just waste society is yeah.

25
00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:13,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, So this investigation, I'm pretty thorough with Frost Brown,

26
00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:17,720
Speaker 1: Todd Gibbons did and talked to thirty two. They interviewed

27
00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:19,960
Speaker 1: thirty to forty two. A couple people obviously did not

28
00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:21,240
Speaker 1: want to go on a record. A lot of people

29
00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,720
Speaker 1: are nervous about this. The report concludes, Terry Thiji has

30
00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:28,120
Speaker 1: not been an effective leader of the department. Again, she

31
00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:30,880
Speaker 1: has not fired at this time. It's an ongoing personal matter.

32
00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:33,120
Speaker 1: Whatever the hell that means. Six months later, that she

33
00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:37,080
Speaker 1: was too old school, pretty authoritarian and rigid. Her communication

34
00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:41,120
Speaker 1: style like transparency, distrust. There's a strong culture of retaliation

35
00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:45,399
Speaker 1: inside a CPD, and that if she allegedly blocked city Hall,

36
00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:48,040
Speaker 1: and that would include the city manager and the assistant

37
00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:51,680
Speaker 1: city manager from communicating with her command staff directly, I

38
00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:55,400
Speaker 1: had to go through her, and this of course started

39
00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:58,680
Speaker 1: to unravel during the violent summer that we just had

40
00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:02,840
Speaker 1: and it became an untenable situation. Oddly enough, coincide, coinciding

41
00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:06,120
Speaker 1: with the election, and so that's the political context, that's

42
00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:08,280
Speaker 1: the facts of the matter. Here, let's jump into the

43
00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,040
Speaker 1: bones of this thing. The report says that she rejected

44
00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:14,560
Speaker 1: the Mayor's office of double overtime pay, citing a potential

45
00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:18,520
Speaker 1: collective bargaining violation. Basically, she said that the city wanted

46
00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:21,320
Speaker 1: double time for officers. We're going to work the hell

47
00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:23,240
Speaker 1: out of you. She said, Well, I want my men

48
00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:25,120
Speaker 1: and women to work the hell out of and they

49
00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:26,880
Speaker 1: need some time off and they should only get time

50
00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:29,960
Speaker 1: in a half as well. Did you ever consult you

51
00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:31,000
Speaker 1: with the FOP about that?

52
00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:34,520
Speaker 2: And was she right? No? What we did talk about

53
00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:38,480
Speaker 2: was the forced overtime that city Hall wanted to put

54
00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:43,639
Speaker 2: upon people, specifically to walk in areas of Vine Street

55
00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:46,440
Speaker 2: and Main Street and over the Rhine that quite honestly,

56
00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:49,440
Speaker 2: just weren't having problems. When she talks about the data,

57
00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,240
Speaker 2: the data did not suggest in those blocks that they

58
00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:57,239
Speaker 2: should be patrolling forced to work overtime. And that's she said,

59
00:02:57,280 --> 00:02:59,280
Speaker 2: I'm gonna I'm gonna go to the line. These cops

60
00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:01,919
Speaker 2: are overworked. I'm not going to force them to work more.

61
00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:05,919
Speaker 1: Well, the cops were you're rank and file, though, were

62
00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:08,880
Speaker 1: they leaning more towards Hey, I get extra money, I

63
00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:10,799
Speaker 1: get double time, or going hey, thank god, I can't

64
00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:13,200
Speaker 1: work these many hours I had to manage. It was

65
00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:16,520
Speaker 1: fairly divided. But what was the mindset generally speaking of

66
00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:17,240
Speaker 1: the rank and file.

67
00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:20,239
Speaker 2: Then for the most part, people are just burnt out

68
00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:22,440
Speaker 2: and they're like, listen, we're working enough as it is.

69
00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:25,840
Speaker 2: You have you have a pretty small faction of the

70
00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:29,639
Speaker 2: department that consistently works overtime. You know, with this new

71
00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:32,280
Speaker 2: generation of cops, a lot of them prefer, you know,

72
00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,560
Speaker 2: work life balance, and they would rather be home instead

73
00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:37,800
Speaker 2: of working. And then there's there's some that are like, yeh,

74
00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,520
Speaker 2: I'll work, I'll work all the time. But you can't

75
00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,280
Speaker 2: continue to go from that same pool of people. And

76
00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:45,640
Speaker 2: then now you're going to tell them now not only hey,

77
00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,200
Speaker 2: thank you for volunteering for all these hours, but now

78
00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:50,560
Speaker 2: we're going to order you to work more. And that

79
00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:52,840
Speaker 2: was something that a lot of officers were upset about.

80
00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:56,920
Speaker 1: The report describes a strong culture of retaliation inside the force.

81
00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:58,800
Speaker 1: Are your members telling you the same thing? And how

82
00:03:58,800 --> 00:03:59,600
Speaker 1: long has it been going on?

83
00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:03,360
Speaker 2: Well, listen, I've been here twenty six years. There's been

84
00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,560
Speaker 2: people that have complained about retaliation for the last twenty

85
00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:08,280
Speaker 2: six years I've been here, and you talked to retire

86
00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:11,600
Speaker 2: guys that came before me that have always complained about

87
00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:15,080
Speaker 2: the same thing. You know, retaliation is something that certainly

88
00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,640
Speaker 2: has to be proven, not just you know, suspected of.

89
00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:22,880
Speaker 2: But I would say that under her leadership it was

90
00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:24,919
Speaker 2: no different than any other leadership.

91
00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:27,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean there's cases you go back that

92
00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:29,680
Speaker 1: are still being said, the Pettist case and others where

93
00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:33,400
Speaker 1: it's a case of maybe discrimination, but that seems to

94
00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:38,919
Speaker 1: pop up often with labor relations inside police forces Cincinnati notwithstanding.

95
00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:42,200
Speaker 2: No, You're absolutely right. I mean, there's there's always been

96
00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:46,839
Speaker 2: this element of people being unsatisfied for one reason or another.

97
00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:49,000
Speaker 2: I mean, there's people that have that passed up for

98
00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:51,680
Speaker 2: preferred assignments that believe that they were wrong for one

99
00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:55,760
Speaker 2: reason or another. And it's it's something that unfortunately is

100
00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:58,560
Speaker 2: just part of police culture. And I think trying to

101
00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,279
Speaker 2: use that as an example of why, you know, she

102
00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:04,080
Speaker 2: was an effective leader is just very misguided.

103
00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:07,120
Speaker 1: Witness has told investigators who are nervous to be interviewed

104
00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:10,680
Speaker 1: they feared backlash, career consequences, et cetera. Is that a

105
00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,280
Speaker 1: common fear. How widespread is that with your membership.

106
00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:16,600
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people just want to come

107
00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:19,919
Speaker 2: to work and do their job. And in this particular case,

108
00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:22,359
Speaker 2: there were some that just refused to interview, and a

109
00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:23,920
Speaker 2: couple of them that I talked to you said, listen,

110
00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:27,280
Speaker 2: I'm just a po I'm here to do a job.

111
00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:30,520
Speaker 2: I don't want to get involved in city hall politics.

112
00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:33,599
Speaker 2: I don't I don't have anything to say. And I

113
00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:37,719
Speaker 2: think it was less about necessarily retaliation from the police

114
00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:40,560
Speaker 2: department as it was just I don't want to be

115
00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:42,520
Speaker 2: involved in this because the reality is what's going to

116
00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:44,760
Speaker 2: happen now. These names are going to be released, and

117
00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:48,240
Speaker 2: once they're released, you know, there's going to be depositions,

118
00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:51,520
Speaker 2: there's going to be personnel jackets requested, all of these things,

119
00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:53,680
Speaker 2: and it's just something that cops just don't want to

120
00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:56,360
Speaker 2: deal with it, Ken Cober.

121
00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,799
Speaker 1: The report says morale has improved under interim chief Henny.

122
00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:03,599
Speaker 2: Is that a fact? I think if you ask the

123
00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:07,440
Speaker 2: cops that we're dealing with thousands of people in the

124
00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:09,839
Speaker 2: streets fighting on Thursday, they would probably tell you that

125
00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:13,520
Speaker 2: morale is still a challenge. You know, I think there

126
00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:15,839
Speaker 2: there are certainly things that Chief Henny has done that

127
00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:21,640
Speaker 2: has has helped to make things more positive. But you

128
00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:25,520
Speaker 2: have to understand that he's also still under our collective

129
00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:29,839
Speaker 2: barneting agreement, so there's only so much that City Hall

130
00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:33,359
Speaker 2: could do to him if he does something they don't like.

131
00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:37,240
Speaker 2: Whereas you know, Chief Biji and other permanent chiefs before

132
00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:41,160
Speaker 2: are constantly under the thumb of City Hall and you're

133
00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:45,839
Speaker 2: making those decisions. So I mean, I think it's like

134
00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:48,680
Speaker 2: anything else. If you ask after the department, if they

135
00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,080
Speaker 2: were satisfied the Chief Henny's here, I think they're gonna

136
00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:53,680
Speaker 2: say yeah. I think if you ask certain people they

137
00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:56,920
Speaker 2: would be yeah. Maybe maybe this isn't the greatest idea,

138
00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:00,839
Speaker 2: but that's normal. That is a completely normal scenario for

139
00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:02,599
Speaker 2: anybody that's in charge of the police department.

140
00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:04,960
Speaker 1: Ken Cober is a president of the FOP Queen City Lodge.

141
00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:07,719
Speaker 1: Joining the Scottsland Show here seven hundred WW on the

142
00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:11,280
Speaker 1: Fiji report coming out the former chief, the Chief in Limbo,

143
00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:14,679
Speaker 1: if you will, it took almost six months, Kenkober, and

144
00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,040
Speaker 1: it was only nine pages, and that strikes me as

145
00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:20,160
Speaker 1: I've seen reports like this where it just goes on

146
00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:22,960
Speaker 1: and on on it. It's like a it's like like

147
00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:25,680
Speaker 1: the Bible. Right, this is only nine pages. Did you

148
00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:28,360
Speaker 1: see anything in there that was news to you that

149
00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:29,760
Speaker 1: surprised you or shocked you?

150
00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:34,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, there were some things that were in there, And

151
00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:36,360
Speaker 2: whether they're true or not, I don't know, because obviously

152
00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:39,320
Speaker 2: I wasn't a party to it. But problems with command

153
00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:43,040
Speaker 2: staff officers and the chief, the stuff about the city

154
00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:45,400
Speaker 2: manager and the mayor and the assistant city manager, the

155
00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:51,000
Speaker 2: chief blocking things. I certainly questioned, if they knew that

156
00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:56,080
Speaker 2: she was purposely obstructing communication, why didn't they do something

157
00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:58,880
Speaker 2: about it when it happened. Why are we waiting till

158
00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:02,440
Speaker 2: now months later? And the interesting part about this entire

159
00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:08,400
Speaker 2: investigation that none of these interviews were recorded. They were

160
00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:11,960
Speaker 2: purposely not recorded. They were told you are not allowed

161
00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:14,920
Speaker 2: to record these interviews, and we're not going to record them.

162
00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:18,120
Speaker 2: We're simply going to take notes that, in my opinion,

163
00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:20,480
Speaker 2: lacks a whole lot of transparency. I mean, you look

164
00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:25,239
Speaker 2: at these officers. Good to Internal Investigation Section. Interviews are recorded,

165
00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:28,280
Speaker 2: they go to the citizens complain authority, they're recorded. My god,

166
00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:31,480
Speaker 2: we put body cameras on cops. We have cameras in cars.

167
00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:35,080
Speaker 2: Everything these officers do are recorded, but now they want

168
00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:39,320
Speaker 2: them to participate in this investigation involving city hall, and

169
00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:40,560
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, no, no, no, we're not going

170
00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:44,320
Speaker 2: to record anything that doesn't pass the smell testomy.

171
00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:48,839
Speaker 1: Is that more about the retaliation fear that that very

172
00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:51,520
Speaker 1: fewer people I guess would testify if that were the case,

173
00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:52,960
Speaker 1: and said, hey, listen, I'll talk to you, but you

174
00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:55,760
Speaker 1: write it down. I don't want my voice recorded. Then

175
00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:58,480
Speaker 1: that can get leaked out. And now we have audio evidence.

176
00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:02,360
Speaker 2: No, this was up the request of Frost Brown and talk.

177
00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:05,000
Speaker 2: Actually it wasn't even a request. It was a demand

178
00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:08,439
Speaker 2: that you not recorded and that they're not going to

179
00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:11,480
Speaker 2: record it. And here's the thing. All of this is

180
00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:14,599
Speaker 2: going to come out eventually anyway, because everybody's going to

181
00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:17,640
Speaker 2: be deposed. I mean, assuming that the chief fire or yo,

182
00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:20,640
Speaker 2: she ends up getting fired, she sues the city, all

183
00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:22,760
Speaker 2: of these people that interviewed are going to be subject

184
00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:25,400
Speaker 2: to deposition. So it's all going to come out anyway. Now,

185
00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:29,480
Speaker 2: everything in this report was witnesses said, Witnesses said, witnesses said,

186
00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:31,600
Speaker 2: and there's really going to be no proof of what

187
00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:34,360
Speaker 2: they said other than notes that someone supposedly.

188
00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:38,319
Speaker 1: Took uh Fiji herself. Obviously, it said the thing's a

189
00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,160
Speaker 1: lightning rod for her as well, and all the trouble

190
00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:43,480
Speaker 1: gets thrown at her feet because it's an easy excuse.

191
00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:46,600
Speaker 1: You know, wind blows off lids off a garbage cans, Well,

192
00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:48,560
Speaker 1: it's her fault. We can blame it. It happened on her watch,

193
00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:50,280
Speaker 1: even though she had no hand in that. That's part

194
00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:52,840
Speaker 1: of this thing. Her attorney, the very capable Stephen m

195
00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:54,960
Speaker 1: called us Sing a hatchet job. Do you agree with that?

196
00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:57,480
Speaker 2: We knew it was going to be from the beginning.

197
00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:00,520
Speaker 2: You put somebody on administrative lea two weeks before an election,

198
00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:04,240
Speaker 2: and then it takes you six months to figure out

199
00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:07,360
Speaker 2: whether somebody was effective or not, you know, as somebody

200
00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:10,120
Speaker 2: who is throughout their career, if they if she had

201
00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:12,880
Speaker 2: all these problems to city Hall, why wasn't anything documented

202
00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:16,000
Speaker 2: before this? It just doesn't make any sense. We we

203
00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:19,000
Speaker 2: all know why this occurred. You know, this was this

204
00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:24,880
Speaker 2: was a political blunder yet again by the city and

205
00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:28,000
Speaker 2: it's well, we'll see how this ends up in court,

206
00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:30,880
Speaker 2: but I would suspect that she's probably going to do

207
00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:31,880
Speaker 2: pretty well for herself.

208
00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:33,640
Speaker 1: Well, I would say, if it's a blunder, it worked

209
00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:35,760
Speaker 1: out pretty well for him because of aftab On down

210
00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:37,120
Speaker 1: All got reelected.

211
00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:40,439
Speaker 2: Well, I think that was that was a foregone conclusion.

212
00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:42,839
Speaker 2: If if they would have kept her, I think the

213
00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:46,880
Speaker 2: election would have been the exact same way. But I

214
00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:49,560
Speaker 2: think someone over at City Hall got nervous and thought

215
00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:53,440
Speaker 2: that maybe this would help re elections. But the reality is,

216
00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:55,560
Speaker 2: I don't think it had any impact one way or another.

217
00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:59,200
Speaker 1: You think our expectations because we were pretty so much

218
00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,520
Speaker 1: seed eidehim on most things. Ken cober Uh President the

219
00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:04,880
Speaker 1: FOP that that we're out of touch with what the

220
00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:07,480
Speaker 1: citizens want. Because if all this is going on and

221
00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:10,200
Speaker 1: they just re elect the same people they had before that,

222
00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,640
Speaker 1: that and and by pretty wide margins too, that tells

223
00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:16,960
Speaker 1: me this is what the residents want. Are we are you?

224
00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:18,679
Speaker 1: Are you fighting? Are you trying to push a boulder

225
00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:19,040
Speaker 1: up hill?

226
00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:22,120
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, it's funny that this is what the

227
00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:25,480
Speaker 2: citizens want. Yet when they just did this survey and

228
00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:28,560
Speaker 2: they talked about how safety has to be prioritized, they're

229
00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:31,120
Speaker 2: afraid to be in their own neighborhood, But yet they've

230
00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:34,839
Speaker 2: they've voted in the exact same people. So clearly this

231
00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:37,719
Speaker 2: is what they want, and at this point I think

232
00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:39,560
Speaker 2: we need to just sit back and go. If this

233
00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:41,800
Speaker 2: is what they want, this is what they get. You know,

234
00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:45,240
Speaker 2: the old adage of you get you get the government

235
00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,360
Speaker 2: that you deserve and that you elect is absolutely true.

236
00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:50,800
Speaker 2: And clearly they're okay with the things are going on

237
00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:53,880
Speaker 2: in this city. So you know, at this point, you

238
00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:55,120
Speaker 2: give the voters what they want.

239
00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:57,760
Speaker 1: Ken Kober, you'r rank and file. They get scrutinized all

240
00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:00,439
Speaker 1: the time, your your pos and and op the fin

241
00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:03,320
Speaker 1: Did it surprise you or is it pretty commonplace that

242
00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:06,080
Speaker 1: all of these bad things came about Fiji is the

243
00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:08,480
Speaker 1: reason why they suspended her and ultimate problem of fire

244
00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:11,280
Speaker 1: and cut her a big check. It's performance based. She

245
00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:14,080
Speaker 1: hadn't had a review, a performance review in seven years,

246
00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:15,960
Speaker 1: and yet they threw this out there like she's supposed

247
00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:17,720
Speaker 1: to know. She'd never been corrected on any of this.

248
00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:18,440
Speaker 1: Is that common?

249
00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:23,360
Speaker 2: Well, listen, here's the always been the problem with the city.

250
00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:27,640
Speaker 2: And everybody wants to blame the FOP for defending its members.

251
00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,400
Speaker 2: You know, when they get suspended, when they get terminated,

252
00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:33,120
Speaker 2: and all of a sudden these suspensions go away. People

253
00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:35,960
Speaker 2: get reinstated for their jobs and they're terminated. And it's

254
00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:40,520
Speaker 2: all because the city historically has done a terrible job

255
00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,959
Speaker 2: documenting things with people that they say are problems, and

256
00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:48,240
Speaker 2: this is no different. You have somebody that has spent

257
00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:51,640
Speaker 2: thirty five years here, Absolutely nothing has been documented. There's

258
00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:54,160
Speaker 2: never been anything saying, hey, you need to do a

259
00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:57,960
Speaker 2: better job, not a performance evaluation. How can you improve

260
00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:01,360
Speaker 2: on your performance if you're not told the things that

261
00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:02,600
Speaker 2: you need to improve upon.

262
00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:06,360
Speaker 1: And I think that also gets back to the witness.

263
00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:08,520
Speaker 1: They don't want a paper trail, they don't want evidence

264
00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:14,439
Speaker 1: people testifying. It's you know, if if there's no permanent

265
00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:17,600
Speaker 1: record of this, whether it's a performance evaluation or you

266
00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:19,840
Speaker 1: could always move the line right, you can, you could

267
00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:23,080
Speaker 1: take that information and tweak it and use it to

268
00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:25,160
Speaker 1: see how you fit. It's manipulative, is what it is.

269
00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,559
Speaker 2: Absolutely. And that's where I said the lack of transparency

270
00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:33,079
Speaker 2: in this investigation, it's just it's it's staggering. Now, whether

271
00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:35,760
Speaker 2: those were the rules of engagement for Frost Brown Todd,

272
00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,440
Speaker 2: which very well I would suspect would be the case,

273
00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:42,040
Speaker 2: because as far as I know, they're a very very

274
00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:45,160
Speaker 2: reputable law firm. But then again, I also understand that

275
00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:47,240
Speaker 2: you know, you're hired by a client and they say, hey,

276
00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:48,880
Speaker 2: this is how you want they this is how we

277
00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:51,600
Speaker 2: want you to do this, these your marching orders, this

278
00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:54,319
Speaker 2: is what you do. Completely understand that it's just the

279
00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:58,360
Speaker 2: entire thing just lacks transparency, and that that I think

280
00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:00,800
Speaker 2: is ultimately where I think the city is going to

281
00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:04,440
Speaker 2: be most vulnerable when you get into any kind of litigation.

282
00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:07,560
Speaker 1: The reason why lawyers are called counselors is they counsel

283
00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:11,120
Speaker 1: They can't actually force you to do something You're to

284
00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:14,480
Speaker 1: hit their consultants basically, So if the marching orders are, hey,

285
00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:17,480
Speaker 1: we don't want any recordings of witnesses, and this is

286
00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:20,440
Speaker 1: why we want the investigation to go, that's the context

287
00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:22,720
Speaker 1: in which your employer, in this case, the City of Cincinnati,

288
00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:25,440
Speaker 1: sets forth to the law firm. The report also says

289
00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:28,720
Speaker 1: that Terry Thigi block City Hall from communicating directly with

290
00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,080
Speaker 1: the assistant chiefs and the command staff. Did you at

291
00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:33,760
Speaker 1: the FOP Ken cob ever raised concerns over that chain

292
00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:34,680
Speaker 1: of command break down.

293
00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:39,080
Speaker 2: I'd never heard that. You know, Like I said, I'm

294
00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:41,920
Speaker 2: in a little bit different position just because yeah, I'm

295
00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:44,560
Speaker 2: an FOP leader, but I'm not in the command staff.

296
00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:47,160
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm sure there's certain things that had been

297
00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:49,600
Speaker 2: kept for me on purpose, and I get it. That's

298
00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:54,000
Speaker 2: kind of the relationship between union leaders and you know,

299
00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:57,840
Speaker 2: leaders from the police departments, so that that wouldn't I mean,

300
00:14:57,920 --> 00:14:59,920
Speaker 2: as far as me being left out, it doesn't surprise

301
00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:03,120
Speaker 2: a bit. I mean, I fully expected. But if that's

302
00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:06,160
Speaker 2: something that city Hall knew was going on, then they

303
00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:07,680
Speaker 2: never addressed it. That's on there.

304
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,840
Speaker 1: Multiple witnesses described the nepotism favoritism in that as a

305
00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:16,440
Speaker 1: huge problem inside CPD. Then even pre Day's Terry Fija,

306
00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:18,680
Speaker 1: I think that said that report. Is that a fair characterization.

307
00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:21,720
Speaker 1: I think it's gone on forever.

308
00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:23,760
Speaker 2: I know the example that was used was her nephew,

309
00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:27,600
Speaker 2: who's the lieutenant our department. He was the only one.

310
00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:29,920
Speaker 2: They made him the legal liaison after he went to

311
00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:32,600
Speaker 2: law school, passed the bar. He was the only one

312
00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,080
Speaker 2: at the time that I'm aware of that had a

313
00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,760
Speaker 2: law degree. It made complete sense to put him in

314
00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:42,400
Speaker 2: that position. So I guess that's what they're going to

315
00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,000
Speaker 2: try to use and say that this was favoritism and nepotism.

316
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,880
Speaker 2: But you know, there's been accusations of that for as

317
00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:51,320
Speaker 2: long as I've been there, certainly long before I was there,

318
00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:53,840
Speaker 2: and I'm sure it's going to be at least accused

319
00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:55,520
Speaker 2: of long after I'm gone.

320
00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:58,320
Speaker 1: In the meantime, we have a community activist in Iris

321
00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:00,480
Speaker 1: Rawley who is not a big fan of what you

322
00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:03,480
Speaker 1: guys do for a living, and the opposite is true

323
00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:06,920
Speaker 1: whose son works for her, and yet there's no cris

324
00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:07,720
Speaker 1: of nepotism there.

325
00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:12,840
Speaker 2: M kind of interesting, isn't it, ken Kober?

326
00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:14,800
Speaker 1: What do you see? What do you see shaken out

327
00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:15,040
Speaker 1: from this?

328
00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:15,440
Speaker 2: All? Right?

329
00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:17,800
Speaker 1: So they got to you can find anything on anybody, right,

330
00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:19,720
Speaker 1: I mean if you if Frost they hired Fraud, if

331
00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,960
Speaker 1: the Vatican hired Frost, Brown Todd Gibbons to investigate the Pope,

332
00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:25,160
Speaker 1: you think he was dirty as hell, because you're there

333
00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,000
Speaker 1: going to find dirt on you. I mentioned the pretext

334
00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:28,800
Speaker 1: of a stop for example, you want to pull a

335
00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,400
Speaker 1: subject over, you know you can find something that they're

336
00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:34,720
Speaker 1: doing driving in a car in order to initiate that stop.

337
00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:37,280
Speaker 1: That the same is true here. What do you think

338
00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:39,320
Speaker 1: comes of all this? They just wind up settling and

339
00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:42,280
Speaker 1: we're talking millions and millions of dollars here for Chief Thiji.

340
00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:45,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's hard to say. I mean, I

341
00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:49,000
Speaker 2: don't think there's a scenario where she comes back, and

342
00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:51,480
Speaker 2: I certainly I don't blame her. I don't know how

343
00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:54,000
Speaker 2: you would be able to come back and work in

344
00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:57,640
Speaker 2: this kind of environment, knowing that that the things that

345
00:16:57,720 --> 00:16:59,840
Speaker 2: have been done to you over the last six months.

346
00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:02,520
Speaker 2: I think it's likely the city is going to end

347
00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:06,040
Speaker 2: up terminating or be followed by a lawsuit in three

348
00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:08,320
Speaker 2: years from now, you know, we'll be sitting here talking

349
00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:10,000
Speaker 2: about what the results of this lawsuit are.

350
00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:11,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, And then the people who cut the check or

351
00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:13,360
Speaker 1: council people go well, I wasn't here.

352
00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:13,760
Speaker 2: You know.

353
00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:15,879
Speaker 1: The favorite thing is well, I was elected, then, I

354
00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:18,359
Speaker 1: was on council, then I wasn't mayor then, and you

355
00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:21,959
Speaker 1: know you have got cover and so it goes. But overall,

356
00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:23,760
Speaker 1: the what effect does this have on the rank and

357
00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:27,600
Speaker 1: file officers you represent, the FOP, Cancobra And what about

358
00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:29,280
Speaker 1: Chief Henny. I mean, he's got to be looking over

359
00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:29,800
Speaker 1: his shoulder too.

360
00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:33,440
Speaker 2: I would think, well, yeah, I think that whatever decision

361
00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:35,280
Speaker 2: they make, right, wrong or indifferent, it needs to be

362
00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:38,400
Speaker 2: made the men and women of this police department. They

363
00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:40,840
Speaker 2: deserve to know who's going to be in charge of

364
00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:43,359
Speaker 2: this police department going into summer. We know it's going

365
00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,359
Speaker 2: to be a long, hot summer. We know that things

366
00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,360
Speaker 2: like Opening Day are likely going to occur again. We're

367
00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,159
Speaker 2: going to be seeing protests almost every weekend as the

368
00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,240
Speaker 2: weather warms up. They have a right to know who's

369
00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:58,000
Speaker 2: going to be in charge. Just like Chief Henny, he

370
00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:00,480
Speaker 2: should be knowing whether or not he's going to be here,

371
00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:02,800
Speaker 2: he's not going to be here. Those are decisions that

372
00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:05,439
Speaker 2: need to be made immediate. Like I said, what regardless

373
00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:08,520
Speaker 2: of what those decisions are, it's owed to these men

374
00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:10,240
Speaker 2: and women of who's going to be in charge of

375
00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:10,600
Speaker 2: this place.

376
00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:13,240
Speaker 1: I will say in final final point here, they're throwing

377
00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:16,439
Speaker 1: the crime problem with Terry Thigi. She mishandled everything, and

378
00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:19,639
Speaker 1: we had the violence, the brawl downtown, we had Fountain

379
00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,600
Speaker 1: Square and others. But ever since she has been quote

380
00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:25,320
Speaker 1: unquote terminated for the last six months, it's not like

381
00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:27,919
Speaker 1: we've not had We've seen crime go down and violent

382
00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:31,800
Speaker 1: crime as a result, whether it's three takeovers, mass shootings

383
00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:34,320
Speaker 1: and the like. Pretty much this is what we wind

384
00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,080
Speaker 1: up get. The Opening Day stampede, if you'll call it that.

385
00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:40,879
Speaker 1: And this shows me it's not a problem of the chief,

386
00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,639
Speaker 1: it's the culture and the climate. I know for a

387
00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:48,080
Speaker 1: fact that you know, the city didn't want to like

388
00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:50,560
Speaker 1: the idea that Fiji was attacking judges and saying they

389
00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:52,000
Speaker 1: got to do a better job, or when she's out

390
00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:56,080
Speaker 1: there being Chief Mema talking about how kids need to

391
00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:58,560
Speaker 1: be held responsible by their parents. City didn't want any

392
00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:01,320
Speaker 1: part of that, which is shocking because that's where it starts.

393
00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,639
Speaker 2: Without a doubt, and as long as we have this

394
00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,000
Speaker 2: lack of accountability, this is going to continue. It doesn't

395
00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:11,280
Speaker 2: matter who you make the chief, it doesn't matter any

396
00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:14,119
Speaker 2: of this, It doesn't matter who's in leadership. Until the

397
00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:18,000
Speaker 2: court system decides to hold people accountable for their actions,

398
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:20,280
Speaker 2: we're going to see this and it's likely going to

399
00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:21,720
Speaker 2: get worse before it gets better.

400
00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,359
Speaker 1: He's Ken Cober, President of the Queen City Lodge of

401
00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:27,639
Speaker 1: the FOP. Ken, thanks for jumping in this morning. I

402
00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:29,600
Speaker 1: appreciate you. I know you're busy as hell and probably

403
00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,560
Speaker 1: extremely tired about talking about this topic. This won't be

404
00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:34,440
Speaker 1: the last time, brother, appreciate.

405
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,080
Speaker 2: It all good. Thanks Thanks for there you go.

406
00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:37,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, let me get an update and we're running late,

407
00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,600
Speaker 1: but good stuff there with ken Well Pivot. Julie Bouke

408
00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:42,359
Speaker 1: is here a career sure if it's Julie on the

409
00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:46,679
Speaker 1: job from an HR and workplace type of environment, and

410
00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,480
Speaker 1: she's an expert in that. What lessons you learn from

411
00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:51,359
Speaker 1: what happened to Terry Fiji that you can applay in

412
00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:54,359
Speaker 1: your workplace, whether what comes down to performance reviews for example,

413
00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:56,639
Speaker 1: Chat with her next about it right after news on

414
00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:57,680
Speaker 1: seven hundred WW