1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:03,080 Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Doctor Wendy Wall Show on KFI 2 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: AM six forty live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. Okay, 3 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:10,160 Speaker 1: my next guest. I'm very excited to have on the 4 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: show because he's interested in the two things I'm interested in, 5 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 1: psychology and history, and also the question of why don't 6 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: we learn from history? I would like to welcome doctor 7 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: Andy Erdman a license to get this psychotherapist and a 8 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:32,599 Speaker 1: historian who's uncovering how societies repeatedly enact the same all 9 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:36,919 Speaker 1: nonsense over and over. Hi, doctor Andy, how are you. 10 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 2: Hi, Doctor Wendy. It's great to be here. Yeah, you've 11 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 2: got those interests too. I think it's a rare overlap, 12 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 2: but I think an essential one. 13 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:47,199 Speaker 1: So your podcast, we should get this out of the 14 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 1: way and make sure we mention it again later. Is 15 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: called feel Familiar emotionally intelligent History. And in your podcast 16 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: you look at a riot that took place in a 17 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: theater in back in eighteen forty nine. Twenty five people died, 18 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:08,759 Speaker 1: and you called it a celebrity fueled culture war. Can 19 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:11,400 Speaker 1: you just tell me in a bullet point what happened there? 20 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, So in eighteen forty nine, this is in Manhattan. 21 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:18,119 Speaker 2: You had a big rivalry between these two actors. One 22 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:20,680 Speaker 2: is named Edwin Forrest and he's kind of the he's 23 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:24,119 Speaker 2: the first American born action he's American born actor. He's 24 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 2: kind of an action hero, kind of a Tom Cruise 25 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 2: Bruce Willis type. And there are all these guys, these 26 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:32,680 Speaker 2: young sort of bros. They're known as the Bowery Boys, 27 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 2: you might have heard that term. And they're very like 28 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:38,559 Speaker 2: pro American, we're real Americans, even though of course they're 29 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 2: not Indigenous Americans. They're immigrants, and they're very white identified, 30 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 2: and you know, they don't like girls, etcetera, etcetera, very masculinist. 31 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 2: And there's a British actor named William McCready who is 32 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 2: really popular, brilliant actor, and he is beloved by the 33 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 2: more elite, moneyed classes of New York, who are known 34 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 2: as the Upper ten or the Codfish Aristotle. I don't 35 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 2: know why they were called that, but it's pretty funny 36 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 2: and I had a lot. 37 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: Of money off codfish. I will tell you I'm from 38 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 1: Newfoundland originally. 39 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 2: Okay, oh yeah, so yeah, the cod Yeah, that's that's 40 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 2: serious cod cod neighborhood. So yes, So MacCready comes to 41 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 2: do a tour of Macbeth at the Astor Place Opera House, 42 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 2: which is sort of the krem Dela Creme. It's where 43 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:27,399 Speaker 2: the fancy classes like to go, and the Edwin Forrest followers, 44 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 2: these kind of rough and tumble guys, believe this is 45 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 2: like a conspiracy theory of the day. They believe that 46 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 2: McCready has been undermining ned Forrest's career and making it 47 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 2: hard for him to get gigs in England and in Europe. 48 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 2: It's not true, but they believe it. So there's this again, 49 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 2: this kind of white grievance, and there's something very to 50 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 2: me again as a psychotherapist, something very adolescent about it, Harry, 51 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 2: that hurt adolescent where it's like, you're no good, but 52 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 2: we need you to recognize us the way that kind 53 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:01,359 Speaker 2: of an adolescent does. So. So they decide that they're 54 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 2: going to do a big takedown of McCready when he 55 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 2: plays Macbeth at the Opera House in May of eighteen 56 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 2: forty nine, and they put all their people together and 57 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 2: they're going to smash windows and try to break their 58 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 2: way in and shut down their performance. In Meanwhile, the 59 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 2: people who are backing McCready at the opera house. Are 60 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 2: these very prominent New Yorkers, the mayor and also some 61 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 2: well known writers Washington Irving and Herman Melville, and they're like, no, no, no, no, no, 62 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 2: we cannot have the mob telling the unlettered mob telling 63 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 2: us what we can do and can't do. So Forrest 64 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 2: Edwin Forrest, the American guy, does his own version of 65 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 2: Macbeth down at his favorite theater down on Bowery, just 66 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 2: as McCready's doing his. Anyway, there's a big riot. They 67 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 2: try to bring down McCready. The city authorities call in 68 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 2: the National Guard to put down the mob, and the 69 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 2: National Guard ends up opening fire. This is the huge crowd, 70 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 2: there's fifteen thousand people. They end up opening fire and. 71 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: Guy, Wow. So we don't want to give the whole 72 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 1: end away. We want people to listen to the whole podcasts. 73 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 1: But what I want to know is one of the 74 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 1: things you talk about is that how unprocessed societal trauma 75 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: can can kind of create this cycle of violence in 76 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: future generations. In looking into the future from history, how 77 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:33,040 Speaker 1: do you process trauma that's society wide. 78 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it's a good question, and there are different 79 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 2: models for it. And obviously it's not an easy thing. 80 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:42,359 Speaker 2: But if you start with sort of the so I 81 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:46,279 Speaker 2: think like, well, we're working with an individual client, I 82 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 2: would look for the parts of the self that have 83 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:51,919 Speaker 2: been dissociated, that have been repressed, and you can often 84 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 2: see that projected onto the other. So there's a sense 85 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 2: of the self where there's huge amounts of shame, and 86 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 2: shame often gets and grief often gets covered up with 87 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 2: feelings of aggression. So there's there's a way to say 88 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 2: we understand, like nobody wants to feel that they come 89 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 2: from a family, a group, a state, a country, a 90 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 2: race that has done bad things. People don't like to, 91 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 2: you know, admit that sort of thing. But the shame 92 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:25,280 Speaker 2: is survivable and once we integrate that shame. And I 93 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:27,600 Speaker 2: would say this is probably familiar to you, your your 94 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 2: professor of psychology. You know that there's grief, Uh, there's 95 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 2: grief underneath it, there's all and there's existential feelings and 96 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 2: then those are integrated into our adult ego. And so 97 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 2: rather than responding from our kind of limbic system, which 98 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 2: which is, you know, our kind of fight flight. You know, 99 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 2: people familiar with trauma will know that we can begin 100 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 2: to integrate from our pre frontal prefrontal cortex, which is 101 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 2: really our executive function. It's the it's the kind of 102 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 2: thing that goes. Let me think this through first before 103 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 2: I throw a brick through a window, like we all 104 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:01,280 Speaker 2: want to do it when we feel someone cuts us 105 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 2: off in traffic. And I think more than you know 106 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 2: a sense of when people talk about our way of 107 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 2: life is being threatened, I think what they really mean 108 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 2: is they feel at some level is that they're going 109 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:14,359 Speaker 2: to be erased and unseen. 110 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 1: Oh well, that's even been said, right that this erase 111 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 1: of a group of Americans right now are fearing that 112 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 1: they will be erased. And so your answer is exactly. 113 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 1: You know, I often say that, you know, our job, 114 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: all of us is to go with a fine tooth 115 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:35,719 Speaker 1: comb through our childhood and process these mini traumas or 116 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: experiences through our adult prefrontal cortex. So it's like we 117 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 1: filter it through and there's all kinds of techniques. I'm 118 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 1: sure your clients do it through talk, therapy, sometimes journaling 119 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 1: and writing and sometimes just you know, some of the 120 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: most traumatized people produce great art, right, films, poetry, et cetera, 121 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 1: about their pain. So when you think about what's going 122 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: on in America today? Well, do you think is the 123 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: biggest collective trauma that Americans have not processed? 124 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 2: Well, I think one trauma. I mean, this is not 125 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 2: kind of my original idea, but I think it is 126 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 2: this kind of addiction to kind of Anglo European whiteness, 127 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 2: that we are white somehow and that saves us from 128 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 2: being at the bottom with you know, black and brown people. 129 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 2: And I think underneath that there's a sense of, you know, well, 130 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 2: if I'm not somehow superior, who am I? What am I? 131 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: You know? 132 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 2: And I think that can account for a lot of 133 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 2: structural you know, and other inequalities that we continue to see. 134 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 2: Now there's also there's also class trauma. There's this society 135 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 2: and you know, we didn't build it on our own 136 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 2: or overnight, but which says that society is a big ladder, 137 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 2: it's a big pyramid. Ultimately you have to sort of 138 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 2: fight your way to the top, and you can't be 139 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 2: sure if someone's been stepping on your head or if 140 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 2: you're going to step on somebody else's head. Rather than 141 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 2: a different conception of a mutual and related you know, 142 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 2: social order, social space kind of like a therapist tries 143 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 2: to create with a client, which is this is an 144 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 2: equal space for you to be here. If that makes sense, 145 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 2: you know exactly. 146 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 1: We have to go to a break. But when we 147 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 1: come back. Sure, I just watched all of ken Burn's 148 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 1: American Revolution. 149 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 2: It's a lot of outs. Oh yes, I saw the 150 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:34,199 Speaker 2: first episode. 151 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 1: Oh good, and it really talks about that addiction to 152 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:42,319 Speaker 1: whiteness and also the class piece. I do want to 153 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 1: talk about this, this idea that America is, you know, 154 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: broke away from British and the class system, and there 155 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: is this illusion that we don't have class, but we 156 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: have a lot of very distinct classes. They're just more subtle. 157 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 1: We'll talk about this when we come back. My guests 158 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: doctor Andy Erdman. He's a license psychotherapist and his story 159 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 1: in his podcast Feel Familiar Emotionally Intelligent History. You're listening 160 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:07,559 Speaker 1: to the Doctor Wendy Walls Show on kf I Am 161 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:10,680 Speaker 1: six forty one Live Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. So, 162 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 1: doctor Andy Erdman, your podcast Feel Familiar Emotionally Intelligent History 163 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:19,560 Speaker 1: looks at a particular event in history, But do you 164 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:23,080 Speaker 1: do some comparisons to what's going on today? 165 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 2: Absolutely, because what we saw in the events that I 166 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 2: cover in Feel Familiar is the Astroplace Theater riot of 167 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:35,199 Speaker 2: eighteen forty nine, in which there's a very race, class, 168 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 2: and gender based divide. It focuses on these two dueling actors, 169 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 2: but really it's about these deeper grievances, and then the 170 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 2: government inter seed. Do you have soldiers on the street 171 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 2: and people are being shot dead, which you know, scarily 172 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:52,079 Speaker 2: is close to what's happening, you know, in places today. 173 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 2: I think what's different about eighteen forty nine is in 174 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 2: that particular fracture you don't have the so called billionaire 175 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 2: classes who at the time are called the upper ten, 176 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 2: the elites, and the sort of white working class, the 177 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 2: sort of angry white working class. They're not aligned, so 178 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 2: you don't have all of the structural power in one place. 179 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 2: I think what's so scary about this moment is you 180 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 2: do have that concumis. 181 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 1: Is very interesting alignment, isn't it, from the lowest classes 182 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 1: to the upper class who have joined hands if you will. 183 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:25,199 Speaker 1: I don't know if you remember a book it's a 184 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: little dated now from the eighties by Paul Fussel, literally 185 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 1: called Class a Study of American Society, and it's one 186 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 1: of my favorite books, because he is an Englishman who 187 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 1: comes to America where he's told there's no class, and 188 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: then he looks around. He's like, wait a sec, there 189 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 1: is a class. It's divided by zip code, by school 190 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 1: you went to, by street you live on, by what 191 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 1: kind of mustard you eat, whether you have your grandmother's 192 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: Persian rug on the floor or something for ikia, and 193 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: he breaks it all down. He actually he has a 194 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 1: very funny it's humorous as well, it's true, where he 195 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,320 Speaker 1: does a living room test to basically tell what class 196 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 1: you are based on what you can find in your 197 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: living room, a fun test to take, so interestingly enough, 198 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: I also teach health psychology and I teach stressors, right, 199 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 1: various stressors, And when we talk about class and class stress, 200 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 1: I refer to studies that show that in America, some 201 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 1: of the biggest anxiety about class actually isn't with the 202 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 1: lower classes, nor is it with the upper classes. It 203 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 1: is in the upper middle classes. Because their position is 204 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 1: so precarious. They're pretending to be rich their friends and 205 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 1: they get to hang out with rich people and their 206 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 1: friends and family and neighbors, and everybody thinks they're rich. 207 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 1: But you know, one lost job, one bad investment, and 208 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: they fall down into god forbid, the middle class. 209 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:56,439 Speaker 2: And I'll just say, you know, Barbara Ehrenreich wrote a book, 210 00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 2: I believe it was sort who wrote a book called 211 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 2: Fear of Falling, where there's this deep anxiety of the 212 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 2: people who have, you know, sort of come from I 213 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 2: don't know, immigrant or working class, you know, backgrounds, and 214 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 2: they've reached that gated community. And I think you're absolutely right. 215 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 2: There's identity terror. 216 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: Identity terror. So so I have I'm this weird person, 217 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 1: very atypical in the sense that and I think it's 218 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:23,439 Speaker 1: due to the fact that my dad was in the 219 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 1: Canadian military Navy, and we moved a lot, and by 220 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 1: the time I graduated high school, I'd gone to ten 221 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: different schools, so I was always the new kid in class. 222 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 1: I knew how to make friends quick, but I was 223 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 1: never part of an in group. I would have to 224 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 1: figure out what the in group was doing and sort 225 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 1: of get assimilated as quickly as possible. But I never 226 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 1: internalized a sense of I must be of a certain class. 227 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 1: And so as a result, I have friends in what 228 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 1: you might consider the lowest classes, but I think they're 229 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 1: very happy people who live at the beach and write 230 00:12:56,200 --> 00:13:01,439 Speaker 1: great poetry, right, and and then the various upper I 231 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: mean I have private jet friends too. I have it 232 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: literally everything in between. And people have always referred to 233 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:10,439 Speaker 1: me as a free spirit. But I think it is 234 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 1: that I was never put in a box growing up. 235 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 1: Do you think a lot of this class and class 236 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 1: stress comes from our childhood? 237 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 2: I mean absolutely, it comes from our various kinds of conditioning, 238 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 2: a lot of which happens in the family culture, in 239 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 2: the I grew up in a very upper middle class. 240 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 2: We moved from a very middle class to a more 241 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 2: upper middle class neighborhood, very aspirational, and so again a 242 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 2: lot of the identity and the kind of sense of 243 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 2: the false sense of self, you know. And Eric Ericson 244 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 2: the psychologist, talks about what happens during adolescence, which is 245 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 2: we're trying to define who we are in relation to 246 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 2: our core self and in relationship to others. So yeah, like, 247 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 2: particularly during adolescence in high school, we're getting all these 248 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 2: messages from our immediate surroundings and also from the larger 249 00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 2: cultural surrounding. And I think it's important, you know, just 250 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,559 Speaker 2: like somebody who comes into therapy with certain assumptions about, 251 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 2: you know, what a relationship is, to begin to see 252 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 2: that conditioning for what it is. 253 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 1: Can we talk before we go about crowd behavior? I 254 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 1: think I'm thinking very much about January sixth, right, how 255 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 1: a mob attacked the White House? In your podcast, there 256 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 1: was a mob attacking a theater. Right, What are the 257 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 1: psychological mechanisms that make Because you look at some of 258 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 1: the people that were arrested and then later you know, 259 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 1: let out of prison, and they were hairdressers and real 260 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: estate agents and plumbers and former military, regular community, law 261 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: abiding people became a mob. How does that happen? 262 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, there's you know, there's lots of different explanations 263 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 2: for it. And at one level, the kind of political 264 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 2: or historical explanation is that there is a kind of 265 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 2: sort of what you're talking about, a kind of class solidarity, 266 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 2: a sense of we're the real Americans, we belong here. 267 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 2: I think at a deeper psychological level, what I see 268 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 2: is there's there's a sense of safety associated with domination, right, 269 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 2: rather than we sort of have to let other people 270 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 2: to the table. It's not a threat to my it's 271 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 2: not an existential threat to my being, My mind still exists. 272 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 2: Even if somebody else with brown skin and a whole 273 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 2: different worldview, et cetera exists, I can let them exist too. 274 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: Or has power. 275 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 2: I think there's right or has and or has power exactly. 276 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 2: And I think I think at some level you know 277 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 2: to know internally, and this does come from childhood to 278 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 2: know internally, I'm precious and valuable. No matter what you know, 279 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 2: life's going to be hard. But I have that, and 280 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 2: therefore I can see that in others. But when there's 281 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 2: that fragility, there's a reactivity. It's the again, it's not 282 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 2: using the prefrontal cortex. It's a reactivity around this feeling 283 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 2: of a rasure. That's how I would explain that when 284 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 2: you know outside of that, sure people can play by 285 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 2: the rules because that sense of eratire isn't felt. But 286 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 2: when it's felt, those deeper psychological mechanisms get activated. 287 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: If something happens when we're in a group, this diffusion 288 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 1: of responsibility, right, the sense that we're just going to far. 289 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: We are sheep when we get in a group. We 290 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: love to be a tribe at a pack and we 291 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 1: just follow along. 292 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, and things get normalized and it goes the other way, 293 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 2: you know, seeing I'm just you know, thinking of like Zoron, 294 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 2: Momdani or other kind of leaders who have come out 295 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 2: and behaved and said things differently. Well, the things we 296 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 2: think are unthinkable, for better and for worse, when someone 297 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 2: articulates them, they become normalized in kind of the ether, 298 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 2: and people think like, oh, I guess we can say that. 299 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 2: I guess we can do that. Hey, you know what, 300 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 2: it's not so crazy to think X, Y and Z. 301 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 2: I mean, if you want to know why people behave 302 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 2: the way they do, I think the biggest explanation is 303 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 2: because people around them are behaving that way, you know, 304 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 2: which kind of accords with what you were just saying. 305 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: So yeah, with very little time left, I just want 306 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: to ask this question. How do we pass down these 307 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 1: maladaptive coping mechanisms? Is it always within families or do 308 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:07,879 Speaker 1: cultures do it as a group? 309 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's both. You know, in social work school, 310 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 2: I was trained in systems theory. So we have the 311 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 2: microsystems around us, our family, our school, our immediate community, 312 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 2: and that's very powerful. We also know that genetically traits 313 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 2: and you know, fears that our great grandparents have, we 314 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 2: might actually have. I think the way that we begin 315 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 2: to change it culturally is starting to change some of 316 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:35,639 Speaker 2: the dialogue in the media sphere, the kind of macro discourse. 317 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:37,920 Speaker 2: And one thing I'd like to see is more emotional 318 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 2: intelligence among people who are in the media and reporters 319 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:46,200 Speaker 2: and so that rather than just arguing or debating or persuading. 320 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 2: I mean, I know that's enjoyable at some level to watch, 321 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 2: but it doesn't move the ball. I'd rather hear, you know, 322 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 2: a journalist say it's curious that I find it curious 323 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 2: that you should say that. Can you tell me more 324 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:58,959 Speaker 2: what I'm hearing? To hear the feeling like a therapist 325 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 2: would do it out well, the. 326 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 1: Truth out, yeah, instead of this arguing, well, we won't 327 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 1: get into what's going on the polarization of the media. 328 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:11,879 Speaker 1: We won't get into well. Doctor Andy Erdman. His podcast 329 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 1: is called Feel Familiar Emotionally Intelligent History. I'm about to 330 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 1: get on a couple of long flights to head home 331 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 1: for the holidays, so I will be listening to many 332 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:21,719 Speaker 1: episodes on those planes. 333 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:25,159 Speaker 2: Thanks for being with us, Thanks for having me, Happy travels. 334 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 1: Thank you. And that brings the Doctor Wendy Wall Show 335 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:31,879 Speaker 1: to a close. I hope all of you have a happy, 336 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: happy holiday. As I mentioned at the beginning of the 337 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:39,399 Speaker 1: show that going home for Christmas is often good for 338 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 1: your mental health. It reminds you of who you were, 339 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:46,399 Speaker 1: It helps reposition yourself as somebody in the world. It 340 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: causes a wonderful break in the year and have a 341 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:53,399 Speaker 1: little travel and downtime. Unless you've had astronomical trauma in 342 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: your childhood, remember that there's a big difference between discomfort 343 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 1: and stress. You might be uncomfortable with some of those conversations, 344 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: but get to the dinner table with people, keep an 345 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 1: open mind and remember where you came from. It's very important. 346 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: Thanks for being with me. I'm here every Sunday from 347 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 1: seven to nine pm. You can also follow in my 348 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: social media at doctor Wendy Walsh. We'll see you next week. 349 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 1: You've been listening to the Doctor Wendy Walsh Show on 350 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 1: KFI A M six forty live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app.