1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:03,120 Speaker 1: Hey, it's Neil Savedra. You're listening to kfi EM six 2 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: forty the four Report on demand on the iHeartRadio app 3 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: if you're not familiar with the show. Every Saturday, we 4 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: kind of just get away from the heaviness of the 5 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 1: news and celebrate food, the people that make it, the 6 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: culture behind it, cooking at home, going out to eat, Gosh, 7 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 1: how it ties into the local economy, anything and everything 8 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: dealing with food is what we look at on a Saturday. 9 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: And today, you know, it being the new year and all, 10 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: do you know that we're all looking for ways to 11 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:40,880 Speaker 1: one have more good food that is good for us 12 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: or more healthful as the case may be. And also, 13 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: you know, grab hold of anxiety or things like that, 14 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:51,480 Speaker 1: because nobody wants to be stressed. Not to mention, it's 15 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: garbage on your body. So we have an author and 16 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 1: a cook in her own right, the sooth Therapists they 17 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: call her, and she's a pioneer of culinary therapy and 18 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: psycho therapy. She or therapy and she's a psychotherapist. She's 19 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: an author and one of the leading experts in the 20 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 1: nation on culinary therapy. Which I'm going to ask her 21 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: what the hell, that is right now, Deborah Borden, Welcome 22 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: to the Fork Report. 23 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:24,039 Speaker 2: Hey Neil, thank you so much for having me and 24 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 2: giving me the chance to actually explain what culinary. 25 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, first of all, you're on the East Coast. There 26 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: is another famous East Coast Borden. Any relation to Lizzy. 27 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 2: Oh, it's very funny, but when I had my daughter, 28 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 2: I really loved the name Leasal from the Sound of Music. 29 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 2: Oh my god, that was out as was Jordan for 30 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 2: my son, because that wouldn't have worked. 31 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I guess we all get limitations in life. 32 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: So you are a el CW. My wife is also 33 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: an LCSW, a licensed clinical social worker. And you had 34 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: gravitated towards food like a lot of us throughout the 35 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: Food Network and all these great food shows. And you've 36 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: combined your passion of writing, cooking, and therapy together. So 37 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:23,119 Speaker 1: what is culinary therapy? 38 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 2: So it's funny that you say that. I always joke 39 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 2: I call it cooking therapy, but as it gets buzz 40 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 2: and it's starting to be included in treatment programs and 41 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:38,679 Speaker 2: mental health settings, it's called culinary therapy. And I just say, 42 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 2: if I call it that, I have to charge you 43 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 2: more it just sounds. 44 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 1: That it's super frue through, but. 45 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 2: It's really the same thing, and it's an experiential therapy 46 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 2: like art therapy or music. By the way, I've done 47 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 2: them all and everyone always says, well, which one do 48 00:02:56,639 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 2: you like best. I've done ek wine, fan play therapy. 49 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 2: I've even done surf therapy. Well, full disclosure, I watched 50 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 2: surf therapy. I didn't actually work. But the best thing 51 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 2: about cooking therapy is it's available. Once you know how 52 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 2: to do it, you could do it all day long 53 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 2: if you so desire. It's right there. You can do 54 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:25,919 Speaker 2: it in your own kitchen. The book that just came out, 55 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 2: Cooking a Therapy, is kind of like a guide and 56 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 2: a sherpa for doing it. And basically, well, I should 57 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 2: tell you how it began, because it wasn't that I 58 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 2: was brilliant or a genius. I was working as an 59 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 2: in home therapist and the state of New Jersey at 60 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 2: the time had this great program bringing therapy to people 61 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 2: who could only access it if it came to them. 62 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 2: But that meant sometimes I was working with like sixteen 63 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 2: year old boys for two hours in the afternoon after 64 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 2: they'd been in school all day and These were kids that, 65 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 2: you know, we're not doing so well, which is why 66 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 2: therapy it was brought in. They were not I wouldn't 67 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 2: work with an insightful adult for two hours, to tell 68 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:11,839 Speaker 2: you the truth. 69 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 1: Sure, that's a lot, especially. 70 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:17,279 Speaker 2: After school and they're hungry and they want to play 71 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:20,480 Speaker 2: video games and they want to do their homework. But 72 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 2: not really because that was part of the problem. But 73 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:26,280 Speaker 2: so I got very creative with them, played a lot 74 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:28,039 Speaker 2: of games and one day it occurred to me, I 75 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 2: love to cook, you know, maybe it could be an activity. 76 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:34,840 Speaker 2: And the minute we started doing it, first of all, 77 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 2: we were working side by side. So you just take 78 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 2: away that kind of what I call, you know, stalach 79 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 2: seventeen eyes in your you know, traditional dieth nice, tell 80 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:50,720 Speaker 2: me how you feel. Right, Well, that's how it feels 81 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 2: to them. And I hate the word. People will say, 82 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 2: oh they were resistant. I hate that word. They just 83 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 2: were not used to sharing their feelings, even thinking about 84 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 2: how they felt. And then we started cooking side by side. 85 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 2: And by the way, I don't know if you know this, 86 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 2: but some of the great leaders in our country believe 87 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 2: in walking meetings and not being in that diad because 88 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:23,840 Speaker 2: they feel even colleagues and employees are more solution focused 89 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 2: and creative. 90 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 1: I didn't know that, but I love that. I think 91 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: that's brilliant. 92 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 2: Isn't that cool? 93 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: Yeah? 94 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 2: I love that Steve Jobs would walk whenever they had 95 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,159 Speaker 2: a problem. He'd take them all and they'd walk and talk. 96 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 2: And Harry Truman as well. But anyway, so we're working together, 97 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:45,160 Speaker 2: and first of all, the metaphors just started coming out. 98 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,280 Speaker 2: You know, I'd say, well, okay, we have to stir 99 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 2: this till it thickens. And they would not have patients, 100 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 2: so it would give me the opportunity to talk about 101 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,559 Speaker 2: what happens if you rush it and you don't wait, 102 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 2: or if you know things like bring to a simmer, 103 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 2: not a boil, because that you're right, and with these 104 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 2: kids very reactive, so let it chill, let it rest. 105 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:14,279 Speaker 2: They just started. 106 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: You know. 107 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 2: It's sort of like it grabbed me and I realized 108 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 2: that there really was a modality here. And I always 109 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 2: talk about my first success with a young lady who 110 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 2: was fourteen and everybody had brought me in the school, 111 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 2: the guidance councilor some trouble with the police, the parents, 112 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 2: and she so didn't want to be in her own 113 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:41,839 Speaker 2: life that she wouldn't even answer to her name. I 114 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 2: had to call her the name of one of the 115 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 2: heroines in a trilogy that was popular. And everything was fine. 116 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 2: She wouldn't admit to anything wrong until one day we 117 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:58,799 Speaker 2: decided to make meat balls and I had her shaping 118 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,480 Speaker 2: these balls, and we started talking about, you know, can 119 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 2: you shape something larger, should you start with something small? 120 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 2: And then her dad had left the mom and had 121 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 2: a new wife and new baby, and she looks up 122 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 2: at me with her hands. Oh, and mom was very 123 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 2: bitter and you know, not being like what we'd like 124 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 2: textbook mom to be with her emotions. And so this 125 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:28,239 Speaker 2: young lady looked up at me with her hands full 126 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 2: of ground turkey squeezing it and said, this is what 127 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 2: I'd like to do to my baby's sister. 128 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: Wow. 129 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 2: So I know it was disturbing, right, but no powerful cortal. 130 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, rather do it with a meatball than 131 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 1: her baby sister. So, yeah, that that is a powerful breakthrough, 132 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 1: I guess is the term that you'd use in a 133 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: moment like that. For someone to be to have something 134 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 1: tactile and expressive right there in a moment, you know, 135 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 1: is very powerful. 136 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 2: I'm so glad you used the word tactile, because very 137 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 2: often I get two comments. The first comment I get 138 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 2: is this would not be for me. I don't like 139 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 2: to cook the wrapping still on my oven. 140 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: My guest right now is Deborah Borden. She's an author, 141 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 1: she is a licensed social worker and clinical social worker. 142 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 1: She is thoughtful, most definitely, and she's a cook. And 143 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 1: she ties these things together, all of her love for 144 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: writing and cooking and therapy. You can find out more 145 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: about her at Deborah bordenauthor dot com, Deborah bordenauthor dot com, 146 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 1: and of course on Instagram which I just followed Deborah 147 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 1: Borden spelled d E b r A and then Borden 148 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: there and you can find out what she's all about 149 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: and find out more about her books and how they 150 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: can help you and help connect with you. Okay, so 151 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: we are talking about two things that you hear. The 152 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 1: first one when you talk about therapy through food. The 153 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:15,440 Speaker 1: first one is well, I don't like to cook. I 154 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: think the statement was I haven't even taken the wrapper 155 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 1: off my oven, which is I hurt us? Yeah, that's 156 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 1: a little weird. But and the second one was what. 157 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 2: Well, the second one I want to just say about 158 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 2: those who don't like to cook, The truth is it's 159 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 2: less about loving that you want to make the cover 160 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 2: recipe of bonat petis, then you're in the kitchen peeling 161 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 2: back the yogurt or making a baked potato or a 162 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 2: bowl of cereal. And when you learn how to do it, 163 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 2: you can do it with that. And I always say 164 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 2: I can't draw to save my life, but I can 165 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 2: draw it for art therapy, because I can draw a 166 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 2: pain or joy or frustrate or grief, and it's the 167 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:06,559 Speaker 2: same kind of thing. It's experiential, it's tactle, and it's creative. 168 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 2: So that's the first thing. But the second thing is 169 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 2: to flip. Most people that love this say, oh, I 170 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 2: love to cook already. This is genius. I'm zen, I'm nurturing, 171 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:23,200 Speaker 2: I love it. Here's the thing. Making Grandma's banana bread 172 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 2: and it smells great and you have great memories is therapeutic. 173 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 2: But it's not cooking therapy. So when you dive into it, 174 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:36,559 Speaker 2: you can learn. There's a full curriculum. It's mindfulness, metaphors, 175 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 2: and mastery. It's formalized for this clinical modality and it's 176 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 2: actually quite impactful that way. 177 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: You know, I've always thought that metaphors are like metaphors 178 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 1: are like I don't have anything to go. Metaphors are 179 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 1: like I don't have a metaphor. For metaphors, I'm sorry, 180 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 1: Uh go it's a cheap joke. Sorry about that. 181 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 2: No, No, like a go ahead, a guy, I want 182 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 2: to help you. 183 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: I'm teasy. I always loved going metaphors. Anyways I find, 184 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: I find you. I'm going to keep saying until everyone 185 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 1: in the other room gets it. So one thing I've noticed, 186 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 1: I've done this program for over a decade and I 187 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:32,079 Speaker 1: speak to a lot of you know, owners of restaurants 188 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 1: and a lot of chefs, is that uh and I'll 189 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 1: do this sometimes when I meet chefs and UH at 190 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: at restaurants and so on. Is breaking them down because 191 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 1: there's similar types that like to get into certain things, 192 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: whether it's law enforcement, whether it's cheffing, or any of 193 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 1: these things. But I found a pattern that a lot 194 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: of chefs have a rebellious nature. They have a hard 195 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 1: time working for other people. They may have not gone 196 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 1: through a true culinary path. A lot of them just 197 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 1: have found a job in washing dishes and then kind 198 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: of fell in love with certain patterns and stuff, and 199 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: I love that. I love that I'm a big you know, 200 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:17,199 Speaker 1: I'm a maker, a creator, an artist, and all these 201 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 1: things in my own background. And I love that they 202 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: find their creativity through cooking. And I think a lot 203 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: of it has to do with the very art that 204 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 1: you've pioneered, and that is this culinary or cooking therapy, 205 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 1: because there's something about it that kind of makes you 206 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 1: a master of your own art and creation. But you 207 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 1: get to watch, at least from a distance, people experiencing 208 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 1: it and enjoying it, and there's something about that. I 209 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: think that's different than sand therapy or even art therapy, 210 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 1: which people enjoy, but there's something, there's that third thing 211 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 1: that not only are they enjoying it, but they're being 212 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 1: literally fed and being given nutrition. 213 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 2: I love that. I love that. Sometimes I end my 214 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 2: sessions by saying, you know, this is the one time 215 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 2: you're allowed to eat your feelings. But I know what 216 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:16,839 Speaker 2: they get out of it. And I learned this when 217 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 2: I was researching the book. The Creativity in Cooking releases 218 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 2: all the feel good chemicals, so serotonin, dopamine, oxytocin, and endorphins. 219 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 2: I don't know, you know, I was late to learn that, 220 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 2: but it's it's very particular, and not to get too scientific, 221 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 2: but the amygdala in your brain, where all your emotions 222 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 2: are stored. It's in both sides of the brain, which 223 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 2: is very unusual. And when you do talk therapy, it 224 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 2: hits the left side of the brain. It's very semantic, 225 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:58,599 Speaker 2: and when you do a creative activity or a tactile activity, 226 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 2: it hits the right side of the brain. So the 227 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 2: combination is powerful. And you know, I'm just I could 228 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 2: probably talk for another you know, four of your shows. 229 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 1: I love it well, definitely behind it. Have you back. 230 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: I am my listeners will tell you, as a logician 231 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: and an a rationalist that there's been more than one 232 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 1: time on this program where I've audibly rolled my eyes 233 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: and called people out on their science and or uh, 234 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 1: you know, it's more that more. Uh. I'm I'm a 235 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 1: very good sound reasoning over reasons, that sound good type guy. 236 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: So I really and I didn't know which way we're 237 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: going to go. I'm familiar with some of your stuff, 238 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 1: not all of it, but I thought this could go 239 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 1: either way. But I really, I really enjoy and believe 240 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: that the process you're talking about is is not just 241 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: you know, therapeutic mumbo jump, but it sounds like it's 242 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 1: wrapped in really good connective science. So I appreciate you 243 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 1: taking the time to come on today again Deborah bordenauthor 244 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: dot com at Deborah Borden. And of course you can 245 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 1: go on Amazon or go even better to a local 246 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 1: book dealer that you can open a door and say 247 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: hello to somebody and buy her books, look at her books, 248 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 1: and we'll have you back on. 249 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 2: I would love that. 250 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Deborah for taking the time again, Deborah Borden. 251 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: She's kind of a kung Fu master there with the 252 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 1: culinary arts and therapy. I love it. We'll talk again. 253 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: You've been listening to the Fork Report. You can always 254 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 1: hear us live on KFI AM six forty two to 255 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: five pm on Saturday, and anytime on demand on the 256 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app.