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Speaker 1: It's Night's Eyes with Dan Ray. I'm gelling you Easy

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Speaker 1: Boston's news Radio.

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Speaker 2: All right, we are tough night for the Bruins.

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Speaker 1: Now tough weekend for the Bruins down in Florida. Week

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Speaker 1: down in Florida.

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Speaker 2: My name's Dan Ray.

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Speaker 1: I'm the host of Nightside, and we are going to

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Speaker 1: talk in the next hour about a couple of the

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Speaker 1: ballot initiatives that all of us better get used to,

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Speaker 1: because you're going to hear a lot. There are about

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Speaker 1: twelve ballot questions that have so far qualified for the

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty six ballot coming up this November, so we're

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Speaker 1: probably I don't know, ten months away, I guess is

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Speaker 1: what we would say or something, you know, a little

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Speaker 1: nine or ten months away, and it's going to get interesting.

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Speaker 1: One of the initiatives would basically make rent control the

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Speaker 1: law across Massachusetts normally rent control, at least from my experience,

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Speaker 1: it has been done not particularly well, but has been

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Speaker 1: tried on a city by city basis, and we will

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Speaker 1: talk I'm sure at some point with the folks who

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Speaker 1: are supporting this program. However, tonight to raise some questions

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Speaker 1: I think about the desirability of the program we have

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Speaker 1: Connor Units. He's the chair of the committee that opposes

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Speaker 1: this ballot initiative.

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Speaker 2: Connor, welcome to Nightside. How are you doing great?

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Speaker 3: Dan, thanks to grabbing me.

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Speaker 2: You're welcome. What is the name of your organization?

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Speaker 1: Because all of these groups they have different names, and

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Speaker 1: sometimes you know, it's like the name can be very

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Speaker 1: descriptive and in some cases it can be less so descriptive.

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Speaker 1: What is what is the largest group that is opposing

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Speaker 1: the imposition of rent control?

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Speaker 3: Sure, our group is called Housing for Massachusetts and we

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Speaker 3: chose that name because our supporters believe we need more housing.

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Speaker 3: We want to protect the housing in Massachusetts. That is

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Speaker 3: the only way to address this affordability crisis.

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Speaker 2: Okay, now.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about the history of rent control. First of all,

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Speaker 1: there is rent control in effect. Some of it has

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Speaker 1: been grandfathered in. But if you can give us an

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Speaker 1: overview of rent control my recollection and I don't know

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Speaker 1: that there's anywhere that any state in the country has

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Speaker 1: approved a rent control law. That normally it's done on

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Speaker 1: a city by city basis, or am I incorrect?

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Speaker 3: Or that more recently, over the past five or six years,

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Speaker 3: three states have actually passed statewide rent control that in

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Speaker 3: some ways is similar to what's being proposed here, but

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Speaker 3: it's actually far far less restrictive than what's being proposed here.

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Speaker 3: For example, in California they passed it in twenty nineteen

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Speaker 3: that allows rent increases. Excuse me, it limits rents to

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Speaker 3: a maximum of ten percent or CPI, which is inflamation

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Speaker 3: the consumer Price Index plus five percent. Oregon and Washington

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Speaker 3: has similar its max of ten percent or CPI plus

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Speaker 3: seven percent. What is being proposed here in Massachusetts is

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Speaker 3: far more restrictive. It's just CPI and so if or

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Speaker 3: a max of five percent. So generally speaking, over the

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Speaker 3: last twenty years, CPI has averaged about two and a

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Speaker 3: half percent. So essentially, what this proposal is saying is

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Speaker 3: that rents can only increase an average of two and

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Speaker 3: a half percent.

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Speaker 1: And is this rents across the board or is this rents?

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Speaker 2: I mean, are we talking?

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Speaker 1: Is this going to affect people who, let's say, own

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Speaker 1: a three decker and maybe they live in the three decker?

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Speaker 1: Are there some exceptions that have been that have been

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Speaker 1: cut out?

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Speaker 3: There are some limited exceptions. If someone owns a three

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Speaker 3: decker and they live in it, they would be exempt. However,

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Speaker 3: you know, I know plenty. I'm sure you know plenty

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Speaker 3: of folks from Dorchester, from South Boston, from Cambridge, from

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Speaker 3: Summerville who maybe used to live in their three decker

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Speaker 3: but have moved into you know, smaller housing, have downsized

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Speaker 3: and continue to rent it out, they would not be exempt.

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Speaker 1: So is there any rent control that exist in Massachusetts today?

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Speaker 1: Even rent control that has been grain fathered in many

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Speaker 1: years ago. Is it totally market rates?

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Speaker 3: The only rent control that still exists in Massachusetts is

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Speaker 3: with mobile homes, and I candidly have not an expert

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Speaker 3: on the exact policies, but that is it. Otherwise, rent

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Speaker 3: control was banned by a ballot initiative in nineteen ninety

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Speaker 3: four based on the experience of small property owners in Cambridge, Boston,

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Speaker 3: and Brookline, which were the only three municipalities that had

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Speaker 3: it at that time.

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Speaker 1: But there was a statewide initiative that voted on whether

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Speaker 1: it would continue in those three communities.

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Speaker 3: That is correct, It was a statewide initiative that that

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Speaker 3: said that rent control would be prohibited across Massachusetts except

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Speaker 3: if if communities allowed property owners to opt in and

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Speaker 3: compensated them for the difference. In the market rate and

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Speaker 3: the cap rent.

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Speaker 2: Boy, that's that seems to be pretty bureaucratic.

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Speaker 3: So in theory, you could a community could implement rent

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Speaker 3: control today. They would just have to pay propery owners

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Speaker 3: the difference, and they'd have the proper owners would have

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Speaker 3: to opt into the program as well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so so it would almost be voluntary something that

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Speaker 1: that property owners would have to voluntarily participate in, and

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Speaker 1: most property owners, I'm sure would not jump at that

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Speaker 1: of that opportunity exactly. Is it too early to tell

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Speaker 1: what the public sentiment is. Have there been any statewide

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Speaker 1: polls that have been taken on this yet or are

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Speaker 1: we too early in the process.

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Speaker 3: There have been a couple that have asked a general

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Speaker 3: question about whether or not folks support rent control of

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Speaker 3: the concept, and unsurprisingly that pulse fairly well, it pulls

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Speaker 3: in the low sixties. But they're not actually asking about

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Speaker 3: this question and what it would do, and any is

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Speaker 3: with any ballot question. The devil was always in the details.

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Speaker 3: And this is an incredibly poorly written, poorly thought out

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Speaker 3: proposal that would have lasting damage on our housing in

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Speaker 3: our economy here in Massachusetts.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I want to talk about some of that, but

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Speaker 1: I got to take a break. My guest this hour

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Speaker 1: is Connor Units. You must have a title with housing

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Speaker 1: from Massachusetts. What's your title? You're the co chair of.

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Speaker 3: The chairman of the committee, the chairman.

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Speaker 1: Of the committee, okay, and he is, of course that

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Speaker 1: committee is opposed to the ballot initiative. Now, all of

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Speaker 1: these ballot initiatives, Connor have to secure some additional signatures

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Speaker 1: to make the ballot, but about a dozen of them

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Speaker 1: have received initial approval based upon the signatures that they

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Speaker 1: collected last fall.

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Speaker 2: It's an unwieldy process.

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Speaker 4: Here in my opinion, but they have to go out

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Speaker 4: at some point this spring and get a percentage of

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Speaker 4: additional signatures of what they gathered last fall.

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Speaker 2: Correct.

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Speaker 3: Correct, They'll have to get approximately twelve thousand to thirteen

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Speaker 3: thousand somewhere in that ranch.

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Speaker 1: And in order to have gotten this far, I think

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Speaker 1: the figure was somewhere around seventy five thousand.

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Speaker 3: That is correct.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it's pretty If you've gotten seventy five thousand in

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Speaker 1: the fall, you're able to probably and you're you're almost

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Speaker 1: home that that final twelve or thirteen thousand will not

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Speaker 1: be a great burden for most of these questions.

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Speaker 2: We'll take a quick break. My name is Dan Ray.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about rent control, the possibility, say again, the

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Speaker 1: possibility that rent control could once again, well will be

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Speaker 1: on the ballot come come the end of this year,

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Speaker 1: in November. But it also has a realistic possibility of passing.

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Speaker 1: And maybe maybe some of you feel strongly about it

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Speaker 1: one way or the other. If you do, feel free

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Speaker 1: to join the conversation. If you want to ask an

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Speaker 1: honest question of my guest, that's possible too. Six one, seven, two, five, four,

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Speaker 1: ten thirty six one seven, nine, three, ten thirty Back

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Speaker 1: on night Side. Right after the break, night Side with

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Speaker 1: Dan Ray, I'm telling you Boston's News Radio.

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Speaker 2: My guess is Connor.

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Speaker 1: Units Connor is the chairman of the Housing for Massachusetts.

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Speaker 1: That is the group that is opposed to the initiative

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Speaker 1: petition which would bring back rent control well, actually would

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Speaker 1: implement rent control across Massachusetts, never been done before. These

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Speaker 1: questions are always written by lawyers, and they're not the clearest.

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Speaker 1: But what will this proposal do here in Massachusetts if

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Speaker 1: it indeed is passed, Give it to us in the

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Speaker 1: clearest English that you can.

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Speaker 3: Connor, absolutely so, First, as I said for it will

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Speaker 3: cap rents rent increases at about two and a half

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Speaker 3: percent for property owners. To put that in perspective, the

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Speaker 3: average property tax increase in Massachusetts last year was five

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Speaker 3: point one percent. The average insurance costs over the last

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Speaker 3: five years have gone out more than twenty percent. Obviously,

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Speaker 3: we all know about utility costs, so all of these

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Speaker 3: costs would increase at a much higher rent rate than

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Speaker 3: property owners could charge tenants. And we all can can

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Speaker 3: assume what would happen in that case. If you're losing

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Speaker 3: money in the property, you're not investing in upkeep, you're

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Speaker 3: not investing in renovations. And that's what we found, what

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Speaker 3: people have found all over the country, including here in Massachusetts,

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Speaker 3: when these policies had been in place before. It would also,

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Speaker 3: as you said, be statewide, so it's not just huge

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Speaker 3: apartment buildings. It's not just Boston or Cambridge.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: It could be Pittsfield, it could be Yarmouth, it could

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Speaker 3: be renting, it could be broocked in wherey lift. It's statewide,

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Speaker 3: and that, as you said, has never been done before.

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Speaker 3: The other piece I think is important, sy Yes, sorry,

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Speaker 3: it applies to everything. Single family homes condos, anything you're

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Speaker 3: renting out for a while. My wife and I moved

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Speaker 3: out of our condo and we were renting it out.

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Speaker 3: This would have applied to us, right We're not you know,

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Speaker 3: we're not a giant corporation. We're not trying to raise

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Speaker 3: the rents as these proponents are alledging. We were just

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Speaker 3: trying to pay our mortgage, and this proposal would have

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Speaker 3: capped us as property owners as well. So it applies

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Speaker 3: to far more people than most people think right now.

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Speaker 1: The whole question of affordability is at the forefront of

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Speaker 1: a lot of people's minds. We've got we went through

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Speaker 1: tremendous inflation in the post COVID time. Inflation was up

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Speaker 1: to nine percent, and of course a lot of that

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Speaker 1: inflation that occurs in one year very really to get deflation,

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Speaker 1: So that nine percent over at one point that sort

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Speaker 1: of gets is built in.

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Speaker 2: So you can.

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Speaker 1: Understand why people might be tempted by this and might say, hey,

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Speaker 1: why should my rent go up six, seven, eight, whatever percent,

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Speaker 1: even though the landlord has increasing utility bills, maybe his

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Speaker 1: or her taxes have gone up. But I kind of

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Speaker 1: afford this, And it's an easy question for a renter

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Speaker 1: to think about the affordability that is that is slipping

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Speaker 1: from them. They're not getting pay raises. If they were

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Speaker 1: getting pay raises of twenty percent, they don't, So.

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Speaker 2: What is the argument that you could make.

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Speaker 1: Obviously a lot of people are going to be on

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Speaker 1: the side of.

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Speaker 2: The owners, I mean people who own property.

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Speaker 1: I get that, just as the renters probably will say, Hey,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to vote in my own interest. But what

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Speaker 1: do you say to people who are not renters and

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Speaker 1: are not renting property. They're just people living here the

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Speaker 1: majority of the voters, how do you persuade, How do

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Speaker 1: you persuade and appeal to their better angels.

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Speaker 3: It's a great question. And the thing that's unique about

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Speaker 3: Massachusetts is that we did already try renk control here,

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Speaker 3: as we alluded to earlier, When we had it in Massachusetts.

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Speaker 3: It was implemented in the seventies and communities could opt

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Speaker 3: in at that time, and only a handful did and

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Speaker 3: only a handful kept it. But because it went away

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Speaker 3: when voters repealed it, there has been a lot of

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Speaker 3: research done on its impact, and for example, there was

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Speaker 3: an MIT study a few years ago that looked at

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Speaker 3: the impact on Cambridge after rank control went away. And

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Speaker 3: what's that MIT study found is that the property values

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Speaker 3: in Cambridge after rank control went away increased by about

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Speaker 3: two billion dollars over ten years, even controlling for all

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Speaker 3: the other growth that was happening, you know, just generally

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Speaker 3: across Massachusetts. And importantly, they found that the value of

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Speaker 3: non rent controlled properties actually rose at a higher rate

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Speaker 3: than previously controlled properties because the rent control policies artificially

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Speaker 3: kept down the values of every place in Cambridge, and

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Speaker 3: the result of that was lower budgets, lower public safety budgets,

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Speaker 3: lower school budgets, higher crime rates. The subsequent studies by

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Speaker 3: these same researchers have found that crime and Cambridge decreased

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Speaker 3: by sixteen percent in the ten years after rent control

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Speaker 3: went away. Because it impacts an entire community, and now

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Speaker 3: we're talking about a proposal that would be statewide. And

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Speaker 3: by the way, when you look at the census numbers,

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Speaker 3: it didn't Rent control in Cambridge didn't actually improve things

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Speaker 3: for renters. In fact, between nineteen eighty and nineteen ninety,

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Speaker 3: Cambridge lost three thousand rental units across the city, so

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Speaker 3: it actually had the opposite effect of of taking more

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Speaker 3: units away from renters, and that's exactly what we're afraid

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Speaker 3: of happening here under this policy.

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Speaker 2: So what happened in those rental units.

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Speaker 1: The properties didn't disappear, did they.

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Speaker 2: What happened to them?

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Speaker 3: So a number of them get converted and they've seen

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Speaker 3: this in San Francisco and other places as well. A

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Speaker 3: number of them get converted to condominiums. And that was

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Speaker 3: happening until Cambridge changed the law so you could no

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Speaker 3: longer do that. And then after that, folks just started

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Speaker 3: taking units off the market. And this is a big

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Speaker 3: issue right now in New York City, where as many

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Speaker 3: as fifty to one hundred thousand units are estimated to

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Speaker 3: be held off the market because it would cost more

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Speaker 3: for the property owners to make the needed upgrades to

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Speaker 3: get them up to code or to make them compliant.

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Speaker 3: Then they'd be able to recover and rent when those

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Speaker 3: units are rent controlled. So what happens is, and economists

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Speaker 3: across the country and every place this is and tried

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Speaker 3: have looked at this, more units come off the market.

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Speaker 3: The other thing that happens is that the tenants that

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Speaker 3: are in the rent controlled units, generally speaking, stay a

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Speaker 3: lot longer than the folks and non recontrolled units. So

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Speaker 3: what that means is then there are fewer affordable apartments

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Speaker 3: available to people that are moving in, people that are,

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Speaker 3: you know, graduating from college, the kinds of young professionals

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Speaker 3: that we are sort of desperately trying to attract or

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Speaker 3: keep here to drive the economy forward upward.

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Speaker 1: Mobility, I think is what you're talking about there. What

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Speaker 1: I don't understand is how that a law can be

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Speaker 1: passed which says to you that if you have a

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Speaker 1: unit or a building with a couple of rental units

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Speaker 1: and you've decided to turn those into condominiums, How any

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Speaker 1: law can deprive you of the right to change I

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Speaker 1: don't understand with property rights, how you can possibly be

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Speaker 1: prevented from from doing that. You said that the past

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Speaker 1: the law which prevented that, I don't understand.

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Speaker 3: Well, luckily most of those laws have been changed subsequently

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Speaker 3: over the last thirty or forty years. But that was

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Speaker 3: a big issue in Cambridge because the law in effect

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Speaker 3: then said you essentially could not take They changed it

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Speaker 3: so you could not take a rent controlled unit off

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Speaker 3: of the roles. And in fact, that's a lot of

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Speaker 3: what inspired the creation of the Small Property Owners association

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Speaker 3: and the effort to ban rent control in ninety four

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Speaker 3: was that property owners were essentially barred from, oftentimes even

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Speaker 3: using unit that they controlled.

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Speaker 1: Unbelievable. Okay, we'll take a break. It's nine thirty. We

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Speaker 1: have the news coming at him. I guess is Connor Units.

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Speaker 1: He's the chairman of Housing from Massachusetts. He has explained

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Speaker 1: his group and his opposition to the implementation of rent control.

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Speaker 1: Love to hear from you. If you agree with them, great,

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Speaker 1: and you want to find out how you can support

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Speaker 1: him or give him a word of encouragement. If, on

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Speaker 1: the other hand, and you disagree, or if you just

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Speaker 1: want to ask a question about how we proceed here

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Speaker 1: in Massachusetts. Obviously, I don't like things that interfere with

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Speaker 1: the marketplace. I think most of you understand that I'm

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Speaker 1: sort of in the David Brudnoi tradition of libertarianism when

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Speaker 1: we come to that point, and it seems to me

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Speaker 1: that if you own property, you should be able to

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Speaker 1: utilize that property in whatever way you want, and the

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Speaker 1: government should just stay and keep their nose out of it.

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Speaker 1: There's public housing that the government builds that's for the

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Speaker 1: government to run. I don't think they should be running

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Speaker 1: private housing. That's my thought. Six one, seven, two, five,

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Speaker 1: four ten thirty six one seven, nine, three, one ten thirty.

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Speaker 1: Feel free to join the conversation, either pro or con

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Speaker 1: rent control. Let us hear your point of view. And

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Speaker 1: if you have an honest question and you'd like to

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Speaker 1: even give a hypothetical question to Connor, I'm sure he'll

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Speaker 1: he'll entertain those as well. We'll be back on Night's

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Speaker 1: Side right after the news break at the bottom of

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Speaker 1: the hour. It's Night Side with Dan on Boston's news Radio.

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Speaker 2: My guest is Connor.

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Speaker 1: Units Connor is the chairman of Housing from Massachusetts, which

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Speaker 1: is an organization that has formed to oppose the rent

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Speaker 1: control initiative that will be on the ballot, or I

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Speaker 1: expect it will be on the ballot this fall. And again,

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Speaker 1: I know it's a little early to start talking about

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Speaker 1: ballot questions, but it's pretty clear twelve of them have

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Speaker 1: cleared the initial hurdle to be in the ballot. There's

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Speaker 1: another smaller hurdle that they all will have to clear sometime,

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Speaker 1: I guess in April in May. If I'm not mistaken, Connor,

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Speaker 1: if I'm way off on that, tell me but I

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Speaker 1: think the deadline is sometime in May and then the

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Speaker 1: ballots get printed.

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Speaker 2: But I think it's.

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Speaker 1: Good to talk about this and give people an opportunity

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Speaker 1: to ask questions. Connor, obviously his group opposes the initiative,

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Speaker 1: will have someone to come on to talk in favor

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Speaker 1: of the initiative as well. But in the meantime, I'd

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Speaker 1: like to go to phone call six one seven four.

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Speaker 1: Let me start off with Mitch down on Cape con Hey. Mitch,

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Speaker 1: you are first this hour on Night's side with Connor units,

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Speaker 1: and we're talking about the potential of some pretty serious

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Speaker 1: rent control here in Massachusetts.

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Speaker 5: Good evening, Yeah, good evening, Dan, appreciate your show and

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Speaker 5: good evening. And Connor very nervous about the rent control.

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Speaker 5: I have several properties throughout the Cape and I'm actually

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Speaker 5: on my way there now and i have a condominium

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Speaker 5: association meeting where they're going to go up in condo

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Speaker 5: fees due to you know, maintenance their waterfront property. So

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Speaker 5: do you have you know, wind and weather abuse and

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Speaker 5: uh not taking into consideration any of those feeds. You know,

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Speaker 5: my profit margin is maybe seven to twelve percent on

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Speaker 5: the units, and if in fact they go up in rent,

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Speaker 5: go in and implement rent control. How does that offset

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Speaker 5: things like condo fees, state fees, local tax, registration fees.

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Speaker 2: I mean, don't don't forget utilities.

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Speaker 1: I assume you have electric bills and gas bills and

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Speaker 1: things like that.

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Speaker 5: Correct, absolutely, absolutely, And nobody seems to take into consideration

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Speaker 5: also the depreciation of the property from when you have

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Speaker 5: a tenant that's in there five to seven years. They're renting,

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Speaker 5: they're not treating it like a home, and you know,

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Speaker 5: you when they move out, you're talking a couple thousand

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Speaker 5: dollars easy to you know, respruce up the property so

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Speaker 5: you're compliant with the new codes that are implemented, as

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Speaker 5: well as the new fees, because every year you have

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Speaker 5: a registration fee for the property, or a registration fee

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Speaker 5: with a fire department, registration fee with the police department

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Speaker 5: for alarms. I mean, no one's taking consideration of that.

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Speaker 5: And I mean I do my due diligence as a

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Speaker 5: citizen to lessen the burden on the on the fellow

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Speaker 5: citizens and the government to you know, take care of myself.

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Speaker 5: And it seems to be harder and harder to do business,

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Speaker 5: and seems to be more of a leading towards a

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Speaker 5: softness towards the tenant, where the landlord and the owner

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Speaker 5: of the properties in fact, you know, providing a service.

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Speaker 2: Right Well, I think you know what I think, Mitch.

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Speaker 1: I think there's more more tenants than there are landlords.

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Speaker 1: How long have you been a renter or a landlord.

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Speaker 5: I've been a landlord for over forty years.

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Speaker 1: Forty years, Okay. Has it got tougher as a landlord

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Speaker 1: in recent years or have things gotten better for you?

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Speaker 5: Putting aside the PA in the last five years, it's

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Speaker 5: gotten to be incredible difficult. You have tenants that don't

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Speaker 5: pay I just had a court a verdict in mine,

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Speaker 5: in my favor, where the tenant owed me after all

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Speaker 5: six months of manipulating the service and the system, where

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Speaker 5: they have twenty two years to pay me back the

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Speaker 5: seventeen thousand dollars they owe me in arrears. I mean

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Speaker 5: it seems to be planted against the landlord and property.

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Speaker 2: Good luck, I mean, good luck, good luck trying to

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Speaker 2: get that satisfied.

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Speaker 1: Connor, it sounds like Mitch is exactly the person who

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Speaker 1: you're trying to protect.

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Speaker 2: Say hello to Mitchell, tell.

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Speaker 3: Them what absolutely yeah, Mitchell, Unfortunately, the answer to your

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Speaker 3: question is there are no There are no exemptions for

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Speaker 3: those or the considerations for those fees. It is you know,

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Speaker 3: it is CPI or a maximum of five percent. And

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Speaker 3: the enforcement mechanism in this ballot question is that all

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Speaker 3: of the onus, all the burden for noticing and communicating

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Speaker 3: and understanding and implementing the rule. The rule correctly falls

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Speaker 3: on the property owner, and if you fall out of compliance,

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Speaker 3: you can be sued under the Consumer Protection Act laws

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Speaker 3: in Massachusetts, and you know, be found liable for up

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Speaker 3: the trouble damages more than that. You may not know this,

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Speaker 3: but the way this question is written the law, the

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Speaker 3: rent that is calculated for the purposes of this actually

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Speaker 3: is whatever your rent was last Saturday, January thirty first,

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty six. So if this were to pass, you

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Speaker 3: cannot raise the rent you know, next November December after

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Speaker 3: the election, to try and account for any of this.

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Speaker 3: That that rent is already locked. So whatever you're currently charging,

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Speaker 3: you don't want to be able to go up CPI

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Speaker 3: from here on out.

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Speaker 2: We know what impact with this hat.

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Speaker 1: Let's assume that you know Mitch is renting, and this

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Speaker 1: passes and he and he has new tenants coming in

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Speaker 1: did the new tenants? Is he also constrained from raising

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Speaker 1: the rent for some new tenants who come in?

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Speaker 3: That is a great question. Yes he is, Yes, he is.

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Speaker 3: Under you know those other states that I talked about earlier,

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Speaker 3: at California, Washington, Oregon, they allow you to reset the

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Speaker 3: rents to market rate when there's a vacancy. In Massachusetts

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Speaker 3: or in Boston. Rather, the first time we had rent controlled,

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Speaker 3: Mayor Kevin White changed it so that we could so

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Speaker 3: he can reset vacant rents to market rate. This proposal

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Speaker 3: very specifically does not it controls vacancies. So give you

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Speaker 3: another example. Let's say that Mitch has had a you know,

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Speaker 3: an elderly person living in one of his units for

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Speaker 3: twenty years and it's a good tenant, and so he

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Speaker 3: keeps the rent low. He will never be able to

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Speaker 3: get that unit back up to market rate if this passes, if.

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Speaker 5: That tenant, even if the tenant moves out.

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Speaker 1: Correct, Yeah, he's What he's saying is that the statute

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Speaker 1: has currently proposed will freeze your rent as to what

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Speaker 1: it was as what was just say January thirtieth, a

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Speaker 1: week or four, four or five days ago if this

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Speaker 1: were to pass, so you would not be able to,

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Speaker 1: you know, raise the rent.

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Speaker 2: In fact, it will.

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Speaker 1: It will be retroactive, as I think what you're saying

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Speaker 1: connor retro actually even on new renters. So if somebody

440
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:51,640
Speaker 1: had moved out the interim and you tried to raise

441
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 1: the rent, what happens if someone moves out after January thirtieth,

442
00:26:56,080 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 1: but before the initiative his vote.

443
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:07,439
Speaker 3: It only changes if the unit is currently vacant and

444
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,439
Speaker 3: has been vacant for more than five years, or it

445
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 3: has never been occupied. Those And you know, as long

446
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 3: as we're talking about Cape cod, one of the provisions

447
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,400
Speaker 3: we didn't talk about is that there is an exemption

448
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:25,360
Speaker 3: in this pill for short term rentals only of less

449
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,440
Speaker 3: than two weeks. So I know plenty of people who

450
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 3: own property on the Cape and they airbnb it during

451
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 3: the summertime for a week or two, but then in

452
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 3: the off season, right they rented out to teachers or

453
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 3: firefighters or seasonal employees who need a place to live

454
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 3: in the off season. Well, under this proposal, once you

455
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 3: do that, and you have a place that rents for

456
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,159
Speaker 3: fourteen days or more, even if you generally use it

457
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 3: for a short term rental, you will be subject to

458
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,120
Speaker 3: rent control going forward, and so it would also cap

459
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 3: what you're able to charge on those short term rentals

460
00:27:58,080 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 3: the first time you cross that threshold.

461
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 1: Boy, I hope people understand this, this proposal and understand

462
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 1: it fully, that's for sure. Well, Mitch, I wish you

463
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 1: best of luck. Thank you for what you've done, someone

464
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:15,919
Speaker 1: who's provided housing for people on Cape Cod, which is important.

465
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 1: But if this passes, it's it's going to put you

466
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 1: in a between a rock and a high place. Literally.

467
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:26,639
Speaker 5: Oh, you're a million percent right, and I thank you

468
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 5: very much and I'm with you Connor and Dan one thousand.

469
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 1: So the question is, how can Connor, how can Mitch

470
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 1: and people who are in his situation get in touch

471
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 1: with you and perhaps lend their support to your efforts

472
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 1: either you know, yes on this on the streets of

473
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 1: the mean streets of Cape Cod or or make a donation.

474
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 2: What's the what's the website?

475
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 3: Housingfromass dot com is our website and you can sign

476
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 3: up to get our updates, to join the campaign so

477
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 3: we can share event information and you know, eventually all

478
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 3: say we'll be doing signs and door knocking and all

479
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 3: the things go along with a campaign. So it's housingfore

480
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 3: maass dot com.

481
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 5: And that is you very much.

482
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 2: That is the preposition.

483
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 1: Sometimes they use the numeral Ford's the prepositions dot com.

484
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 1: All right, hey Mitch, appreciate you, Carl, thank you very much,

485
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 1: best of.

486
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 5: Luck, Thank you very much, Conor, thank you, Dan.

487
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 2: You're welcome.

488
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 1: Six one seven, two, five, four ten thirty six one seven,

489
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 1: nine three one ten thirty. My guest is Connor Unitsy

490
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 1: is the chairman of Housing from Massachusetts. The website Housingfromass

491
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 1: dot com.

492
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 3: Uh.

493
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 1: I know that some of you are saying why we're

494
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 1: talking about in a ballot question that won't be on

495
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 1: the ballot until November. The reason is, I think it's

496
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: important for people to realize that, uh, this is a

497
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 1: train coming down the tracks and it will be one

498
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 1: that people will have to consider, and I think it's

499
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 1: better to talk about it in advance and lay some

500
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 1: foundational understanding for people so that as time goes on,

501
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 1: they will be able to make why decisions however they vote.

502
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 1: And if you disagree with Connor and you'd like to

503
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 1: make the the opposite argument, that's fine, And if you

504
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 1: want to support them, you're more than welcome six one, seven, two, five, four,

505
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 1: ten thirty six one seven, nine three one, ten thirty.

506
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 2: We're coming right back on Nightside.

507
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 1: It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Boston's news

508
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 1: radio Groll. All of a sudden, the phones have lit up.

509
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 1: Let me go to Heidi in Lowell. Heidi, you were

510
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 1: on with Connor Units. He's the chair of housing from Massachusetts.

511
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 1: They are opposed to the rent control initiative. What's your thought?

512
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 1: What's your question? Are your comic? Go right ahead, Heidi.

513
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 6: Hei, Yeah, I was just calling. I want to say

514
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 6: that I rent in Lowell. I rent from a property

515
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 6: group right now her my lease. They can only raise

516
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 6: the rent six percent every year. That I've got to say,

517
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 6: since I moved here in twenty fifteen from one of

518
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 6: my rent was one and seventy five, I'm now paying

519
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 6: almost twenty four hundred dollars in rents.

520
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: So that was over how many years twenty fifteen? Did

521
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 1: you say to that? Yeah, over ten years and so

522
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 1: six percent. Yeah, that sounds at six percent. What do

523
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 1: you say to to Heidi Connor?

524
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 2: Obviously that's a big jump.

525
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and as I said at the start, we recognize

526
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 3: there isn't affordability issue in Massachusetts a crisis, and the

527
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 3: best way that we can address that is to create

528
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 3: more housing. When you look at Austin, Texas, rents are

529
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 3: down six percent year over year. In Phoenix, Arizona, rents

530
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 3: are down four percent year over year because they have

531
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 3: built so much supply that they have more more available

532
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 3: units than they have folks in Those are two states,

533
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 3: in two cities that are growing exponentially. Right. The problem

534
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 3: we have in Massachusetts is we have lagged far behind

535
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 3: in creating new homes and we need to do a

536
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 3: better job. And that's why our coalition and other groups

537
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 3: that we have been talking to, and the chambers and

538
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 3: the mayors are all working to grow the housing supply

539
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 3: in Massachusetts and that will ultimately help us to bring

540
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 3: rents down.

541
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 6: The problem with that is Number one, where are we

542
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 6: going to have the space or the infrastructure to build

543
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 6: this new housing. Number Two, I've heard that the problem

544
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 6: of construction is they know how to make very cheap

545
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 6: places or very very expensive places, but moderate income housing

546
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 6: is very, very difficult to construct. And then we have

547
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 6: all these huge buildings with all these crazy amounts of

548
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 6: rent in Boston and they stay empty. So that they

549
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 6: can take it out of their taxes. As long as

550
00:32:55,320 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 6: nobody's renting them, then whoever owns them gets to take

551
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 6: that off their taxes. So how do we solve those problems?

552
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 3: On the first point, You're actually right. Massachusetts, in particularly

553
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 3: Greater Boston, is extremely expensive to build, and that's why

554
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 3: the governor and others have been working on revising proposals

555
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 3: and streamlining and trying to speed up permitting to bring

556
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 3: the cost down. It's one tool in the toolbox. I

557
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 3: can't speak with any authority to the text issue. That's

558
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 3: not my understanding of how it works. And I can

559
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 3: tell you that all the property owners and developers that

560
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 3: I've spoken to would much rather have a full building

561
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:39,480
Speaker 3: than an empty one.

562
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, Heidi, great questions. I got a bunch of folks.

563
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 1: I'm going to try to get at least one more

564
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: in here before we have to finish up for the night.

565
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 1: But we will deal with this issue, I promise you

566
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 1: in the weeks and months ahead. So thank you very much.

567
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 1: Keep adding your voice to the conversation. Thank you, great question.

568
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 1: Sorry Emily and Wilburn. Emily, We're going to get you

569
00:33:57,600 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 1: in under the wire.

570
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 2: Hu go right, ahead. You're all with, thank you, Yes,

571
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 2: go ahead, go ahead.

572
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:10,279
Speaker 7: A two part question, Uh, how does the this new initiative,

573
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,840
Speaker 7: how will this affect Uh, the new owner of a property,

574
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 7: that is, the buyer who purchases a a rental property

575
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 7: that is under lease.

576
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 1: So that's what Yeah, I would assume the limitation would

577
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 1: go with the with the property and correct with the

578
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 1: new buyer.

579
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 7: Okay, if the buyer buys it and there is no tenant,

580
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 7: is that buyer obligated to only increase the rent based

581
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:49,399
Speaker 7: on what the former owner was renting it for?

582
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,359
Speaker 3: If the if the unit has been vacant for more

583
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 3: than five years or it has never been occupied, then

584
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,719
Speaker 3: it can be set at whatever rent. If if there

585
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:03,800
Speaker 3: was a previous tenant, doesn't matter. If there was a

586
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 3: change of ownership of the building, uh within five years,

587
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:08,720
Speaker 3: then then the law would apply.

588
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 7: Emily, great question, that's gonna that's going to affect the

589
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 7: values of rental property.

590
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, absolutely All right, Emily, thank you for

591
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,360
Speaker 1: your questions. Uh, we're just flat out of time. I

592
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 1: wish all of you would called a little early. We

593
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 1: could have got more more questions for Connor. But that's

594
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 1: okay because well.

595
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 7: Thank you for answering my questions.

596
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 1: Thank you, you're welcome.

597
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 2: Connor, great job. I think we've got the conversation started.

598
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 1: We'll try to get the other point of view on

599
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 1: some night and give people an opportunity to cross examine.

600
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 2: Them as well.

601
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,880
Speaker 1: UH, and thank you so much for being with us tonight.

602
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 1: And let's keep this conversation going because they think the

603
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 1: more people know about this issue, the better informed we

604
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 1: will become November as a voting public.

605
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:56,399
Speaker 2: So thanks very much.

606
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:58,360
Speaker 3: Agree more Dan, Great.

607
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, great job tonight, Connor, thanks, thank you so much.

608
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,360
Speaker 1: Well, Okay, for those of you in the line, Unfortunately,

609
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 1: fortunately we're going to change topics.

610
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 2: I have a guest coming up on a.

611
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 1: Very different issue, which is the UH issue to lower

612
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:18,760
Speaker 1: the state income tax rate US that's going to be

613
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 1: potentially before us on next November. Feel free if you're

614
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 1: on the line and want to talk about that, stay there.

615
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 1: If not, we will be back right after the ten

616
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:30,720
Speaker 1: o'clock news. I just wish you guys had called earlier.

617
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 1: I could have got Kristen fill in.

618
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 2: But stay there.

619
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:35,439
Speaker 1: We'll get you in on the income tax issue coming

620
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:36,239
Speaker 1: up on night side