Speaker 1: Going to be an American idiot not be twenty twenty six,
Speaker 1: Gott's back with you on seven hundred ww had I
Speaker 1: hope you had an enjoyable one, be it Christmas, New
Speaker 1: Year's or whatever the hell does you do?
Speaker 2: Get some downtime for you, that's good. One of the
Speaker 2: things you don't think about, and so it's a good
Speaker 2: time to, I don't know, touch on these things this
Speaker 2: time of year, when it slows down a little bit,
Speaker 2: to put your little thinking hat on, would be the
Speaker 2: state of our water supply. We often don't think about that.
Speaker 2: Right you turn your tap on, you have a glass
Speaker 2: of water, you don't make, boil some pasta, something along
Speaker 2: those lines wherever, you don't think too much about it.
Speaker 2: As we know, for years now we have started to
Speaker 2: learn more and more about microplastics that are in our
Speaker 2: water system. And of course enough of that in you
Speaker 2: will kill you because it's a known carcinogen. So what
Speaker 2: is the state of our water supply here in the
Speaker 2: Buckeye States. There's been a lot with the EPA that's
Speaker 2: been made and special federally Ohio EPN or Mike and
Speaker 2: Whine did this a few years to get a study
Speaker 2: to find out where the stuff is coming from. Try
Speaker 2: and figure out the source. And if you look at
Speaker 2: a map of our local water treatment plants, we have
Speaker 2: two big ones here. We have the Richard Mill or
Speaker 2: Frank Harris Senior Treatment Plant that's the source of about
Speaker 2: oh ninety percent of our water in Cincinnati. And then
Speaker 2: the other one is the Cincinnati water Works facility I
Speaker 2: think up in the in I want to say Fairfield
Speaker 2: area too as well, that supplies some drinking water. But
Speaker 2: I don't know much about that other than I turned
Speaker 2: the foster to the shower head on and stuff comes out,
Speaker 2: and I hope it's okay to drink and use. The
Speaker 2: guy that could tell me not to do that is
Speaker 2: Richard Harrison. He's the executive director and chief engineer for
Speaker 2: the Ohio River Valley Water Sanitation Commission known as ARONSCO. Richard,
Speaker 2: welcome back.
Speaker 3: To the show. Good to have you. Thank you, Scott.
Speaker 3: I appreciate you inviting me to join you today.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know this is well. I mean, I guess
Speaker 2: what comes out of the faucet's outside of your scope
Speaker 2: because you do more with intake in the waterways. But
Speaker 2: that's where this thing starts. If we can stop this
Speaker 2: stuff from getting into the water. It's a more cost
Speaker 2: effective solution than trying to treat it to the end.
Speaker 2: It's always the case is whether it's this or healthcare
Speaker 2: or anything else for that matter. But let's start with
Speaker 2: the PFA saying what do we need to know about this,
Speaker 2: where does it come from, and what are the lengths
Speaker 2: to our health?
Speaker 3: Well. PFASs is a very complex group of chemicals and
Speaker 3: the technical name for them is per and polyplori alcohol sentences.
Speaker 3: As you correctly noted, p FOSS is how they are
Speaker 3: known through their acronym, and they are a group of
Speaker 3: man made chemicals that are found everywhere. They're applied to
Speaker 3: many consumer goods to make them waterproof, stain resistant, or
Speaker 3: non stick. They're also used in products like cosmetics, fast
Speaker 3: food packaging, and types of firefighting foam, specifically something called
Speaker 3: a triple F so they're essentially everywhere. They're very long
Speaker 3: lasting chemicals by design, their man made chemicals, and that
Speaker 3: was the attraction to them back in the forties when
Speaker 3: these chemicals were identified and created and put together because
Speaker 3: of those tendencies that they last an extensive period of time.
Speaker 3: It can take several years for them the break down
Speaker 3: within our bodies. That's why there's also culturvel chemicals.
Speaker 2: Okay, so what happens is kind of like a lead
Speaker 2: poisoning for example. We know your body doesn't create a
Speaker 2: waste product for it. It accumulates, So the more you're
Speaker 2: exposed to it, the more it builds up in your body.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And because they can come from from anywhere, many
Speaker 3: many pathways, and of course we're talking about drinking the
Speaker 3: water as one of those pathways, but certainly they come
Speaker 3: from other pathways air, food products, again, clothing. So it's
Speaker 3: a challenge.
Speaker 2: Well, your job is tasked with trying to prevent it
Speaker 2: from getting in the drinking water supply in the first place.
Speaker 3: How's that going, Well, maybe we can step back and
Speaker 3: just talk about the process. So USCPA has invested a
Speaker 3: lot of resources in trying to determine how to remove
Speaker 3: these chemicals from many different sources. And we're talking about
Speaker 3: drinking water. So as we talk about the rivers and waters,
Speaker 3: what we work with within the Higher Basin, of course,
Speaker 3: the Higher River is the largest body of water. They're
Speaker 3: approaching this from several different directions. Of course, drinking water
Speaker 3: is one which we're talking about the day, but also
Speaker 3: there's something called the Clean Water Act. So we're talking
Speaker 3: about the Safe Drinking Water Act, and we talk about
Speaker 3: maximum contaminate levels and regulations for utilities. But also when
Speaker 3: you talk about the Clean Water Act, you're talking about
Speaker 3: the sources of water, and we talk about making water fishable, swimmable,
Speaker 3: and drinkable. And that's ensuring that the higher river and
Speaker 3: other surface waters are suitable for fish being able to
Speaker 3: live and survive bugs, macro vertebrates, but also for human
Speaker 3: health we consume fish, and also the utilities have to
Speaker 3: have a water supply that is safe. So that's a
Speaker 3: whole other area. We're expecting to have draft criteria for
Speaker 3: the for the surface waters for human health later this summer,
Speaker 3: and that's really when Orsenko we'll get more involved with
Speaker 3: our partner states to really figure out what's next.
Speaker 2: All right, So should people be freaking out about this?
Speaker 2: I mean, it's been it's you said, it's been the
Speaker 2: better ren since the forties, and it's taken a while
Speaker 2: for getting our drinking water. And it's probably a case
Speaker 2: where our equipment and our testing abilities have gotten much
Speaker 2: much better, more granular, if you will, And so we're
Speaker 2: now we're seeing stuff we never could see before. But
Speaker 2: we know that this is a known cursin egen, that
Speaker 2: it causes some bad things to happen within the human body,
Speaker 2: and obviously we want to prevent that as well. But
Speaker 2: how concerned should we be? Do you drink out of
Speaker 2: the water the water you're talking about. You turning your
Speaker 2: faucet and you're drinking tap? Are you doing doing bottle?
Speaker 3: Richard? I do tap so. I used to be the
Speaker 3: vice president of engineering, production and Distribution for North Kentucky
Speaker 3: Water District, one of the large utility on the High River,
Speaker 3: and we're very fortunate that Kentucky Water District, then, of
Speaker 3: course greater to say water works for the majority of
Speaker 3: their water, adds granuar acivated carbon treatments to their process
Speaker 3: and that has been shown to be very effective at
Speaker 3: removing carbon. But I drink tap water. I feel very
Speaker 3: comfortable with it. A lot of discussion here is about
Speaker 3: overall risk. These compounds are everywhere. I'm very proud to
Speaker 3: be part of a water resource sector that works so
Speaker 3: hard to protect our drinking water supply in our river.
Speaker 3: So I think it's a matter of risk and balancing
Speaker 3: risk and there's a lot we don't know. There are
Speaker 3: over let's see here, let me make sure I give
Speaker 3: you the right information. But we're talking about over one
Speaker 3: hundred and sixty million chemicals are known through the World
Speaker 3: Health Organization. About eighty five thousand of these ESCPA lists
Speaker 3: on them OREO substances through the Toxic Subsics Control Act.
Speaker 3: There are over four thousand p fos chemicals and less
Speaker 3: than one hundred are regulated through MCL. So this is
Speaker 3: extremely complex. Well, you covered it very well when you
Speaker 3: mentioned we're learning more. We now know that through EPA
Speaker 3: toxicity studies that there's actually more pf husts in rainwater
Speaker 3: than is considered to be protective in terms of human health.
Speaker 3: And so this is very complex. So there's a lot
Speaker 3: we don't know, and it's a matter of just balancing risk.
Speaker 3: We all pay for this response through as customers, so
Speaker 3: we're customers of wonderful water utilities, wastewater utilities, and it's
Speaker 3: just a matter of how much investment goes into this
Speaker 3: and benefit costs ratios. So this is very complex, but
Speaker 3: it's certainly not something I'm losing freepover. But it is
Speaker 3: important that we continue to understand these chemicals and remove
Speaker 3: them that the sources if possible.
Speaker 2: Well, that's the key, because it goes in the rain water,
Speaker 2: then that goes to water our crops, the food that
Speaker 2: we eat goes into our drinking water through groundwater, through
Speaker 2: the rivers and streams, et cetera, et cetera. Richard Harrison,
Speaker 2: Executive Director and Chief Engineer for the Ohio River Valley
Speaker 2: Water Sanitation Commission ARONSCO is what they're called. These are
Speaker 2: the folks who test our drinking water. And there's concern
Speaker 2: over something called pfoss p fas, and those are basically
Speaker 2: microplastics that accumulate in your body. So plastics do break
Speaker 2: down to some degree that gets in the drinking water
Speaker 2: and it's so fine that the filtration systems in the
Speaker 2: carbon it doesn't catch that, and it builds up in
Speaker 2: your body over time, and it's a known carcinogen. We
Speaker 2: don't know the long term I mean, I guess we
Speaker 2: do know the long long term effects. But that is
Speaker 2: the current target now for water treatment people like Richard,
Speaker 2: to try and eliminate that from our water system, if
Speaker 2: that's indeed possible. Now, Ohhio, we're still pretty good considering
Speaker 2: other states, New Jersey probably manufacturing and military, Michigan more
Speaker 2: automotive manufacturing, And therefore you have a lot of chemicals
Speaker 2: that are in the groundwater supply, which is why they're
Speaker 2: seeing levels that are at the top. Here in Ohio
Speaker 2: not as much. However, I will say that I was
Speaker 2: looking at two of our bigger plants here, the Harris
Speaker 2: Treatment Plant, to provides about ninety percent of Cincinnati's water.
Speaker 2: They didn't find any measurable levels there, But if you
Speaker 2: go up to Fairfield, the plant there said they were
Speaker 2: almost in the danger zone. It's really not that far
Speaker 2: away as far as distance goes. But how do you
Speaker 2: describe the disparity one plant showing no results the other
Speaker 2: one The Neil's moving pretty.
Speaker 3: Well well, Scott. You talked a little bit earlier in
Speaker 3: our conversation about the technology and the level of detections.
Speaker 3: What I find fascinating is through uscpa's research, and to
Speaker 3: be clear, or Senko does not work in the toxicology
Speaker 3: end of things. We work in the monitoring response that skills.
Speaker 3: I spoke with you last year about our response to
Speaker 3: these Palestine chemical train derailment still and so our area
Speaker 3: is working on the water quality. And one of the
Speaker 3: challenges we have is now UCPA has determined that the
Speaker 3: levels of these are in the parts per quadruleon and
Speaker 3: the technology to actually measure these are in the parts
Speaker 3: for trillium. So we're trying to find these and levels
Speaker 3: that are a thousand times more stringent then we can
Speaker 3: actually measure them. So it is something that is a challenge,
Speaker 3: and so when you talk about disparities between creatent plants,
Speaker 3: it's important to understand that when USCPA puts together these
Speaker 3: types of regulations, they're looking at a lifetime risk and
Speaker 3: it's based upon an average person around one hundred fifty pounds,
Speaker 3: which I certainly aim over that, but they're looking at
Speaker 3: consuming a half gallon of water every day over seventy
Speaker 3: years and a one in a million increase in cancer risk.
Speaker 3: And we're very fort to have this type of work
Speaker 3: to protect us from a risk standpoint, But it is
Speaker 3: important to understand what goes into these types of calculations,
Speaker 3: and they are determined in a way to be very
Speaker 3: protective of human health. So the variations, you know, we're
Speaker 3: talking about parts port trillion. It's really difficult to even
Speaker 3: measure these below four parts petrillium in terms of accuracy,
Speaker 3: and so this is an evolving science and we're only
Speaker 3: talking about a handful out of four thousand pfus chemicals.
Speaker 3: So it's something that there'll be more work in this.
Speaker 3: USCPA every five years does what they call a contaminant
Speaker 3: monitoring process the Safe Drinking Water Act, and there's over
Speaker 3: twenty of these being looked at in the current one.
Speaker 3: So this is an ongoing effort.
Speaker 2: Richard Harrison, what may I ask, are we just trying
Speaker 2: to scare people the compliance and you're telling me the
Speaker 2: equipment we have can't even measure the great greatest detail
Speaker 2: of what the stuff is in our bodies. I mean,
Speaker 2: let's face it, the air that we breathe, the milk
Speaker 2: that we drink, the food we consume, it all has
Speaker 2: something toxic in it. I mean, you know, there's arsenic
Speaker 2: in our food, but it's trace amounts. There's ratpoop in
Speaker 2: your cheerios, but it's trace amounts. Is this any different?
Speaker 3: I'm very proud to work in a field that is
Speaker 3: so protective. USPA follows the lull to say Drinking Water
Speaker 3: Act when they put this together, I'm not the right
Speaker 3: person to talk about toxic ecology. I will say that
Speaker 3: risk is a question and it's something that we have
Speaker 3: to look at. They're doing their job, they're looking at
Speaker 3: the science as where they's drinking water. But as you say,
Speaker 3: there's risk from everything, and so just the water infrastructure.
Speaker 3: You know, I always like to say every dollar we
Speaker 3: invest as customers in a new regulation makes it harder
Speaker 3: to put that dollar in replacement of water botts. And
Speaker 3: so it's something that is very complex and we all
Speaker 3: have to be engaged in this. We have to understand it.
Speaker 3: We're the ones that are paying for this through our
Speaker 3: rates as customers and knowing working with our utilities. We're
Speaker 3: lucky to have incredible drinking water utilities in our areas.
Speaker 3: So I'm not going to touch a political question. That's
Speaker 3: not where our Senko gets involved. But it's a fair
Speaker 3: question to talk about the overall risk and just.
Speaker 2: Balancing that because you hear this stuff and people usually
Speaker 2: it's new parents start freaking out about this stuff and
Speaker 2: they start washing there. You know, they have their dishwasher
Speaker 2: water coming out of a giant bottle of Desanni and
Speaker 2: it's cost prohibitive and everything else. If I use like
Speaker 2: a Britta filter on top of my tap water. Does
Speaker 2: a Brita filter take this stuff out or reverse osmosis?
Speaker 3: Well, I will talk about Britta because it's a brand name,
Speaker 3: but I will say that there are filters that can
Speaker 3: be added. If folks want to do that, they can.
Speaker 3: They can certainly contact their doctors if if they're concerned
Speaker 3: about this. So keep in mind that the FDA currently
Speaker 3: is not regulating bottle of water for pifos, and so
Speaker 3: this is very complex. I would I would just talk
Speaker 3: to folks and which I'm doing, and and just comment
Speaker 3: that it's all of it's all about balance. It's understanding
Speaker 3: how complex this is. And the U s c p
Speaker 3: A is doing their job, or State EPAS, Ohio EPA,
Speaker 3: Tuckt Divisional Water, Indiana Department Environment Management, and they all
Speaker 3: work within this area. They're they're working as hard as
Speaker 3: they can on this, and this is complex and it's
Speaker 3: all about managing risk in safety and following the laws
Speaker 3: that that we we have approved through Congress, Save Drinking
Speaker 3: Water Act, Clean Water Acting. So that's what us e
Speaker 3: PA is trying to do. They would have they would
Speaker 3: be the ones to talk to you about all the
Speaker 3: science behind it. This is very complex Scott.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean if if you're so inclined, you know,
Speaker 2: you could do a filter system. I use the word
Speaker 2: Britta because it's like clean X or jell O. It's
Speaker 2: a it's a brand name that's become common. And I
Speaker 2: look at this and go, okay, look at the risk.
Speaker 2: Listen to what you had to say. You know you're
Speaker 2: drinking the tap water. You see this stuff under a microscope.
Speaker 3: We don't.
Speaker 2: And if it's good enough for you, it's good enough
Speaker 2: for me. I sleep well knowing that the drinking water
Speaker 2: is being policed by yourself, people like yourself, and you're
Speaker 2: more at the source end. We talked during the East
Speaker 2: Palestine disaster about the plume that was traveling down the
Speaker 2: Ohio River. You guys had it all timed out, saying, yah,
Speaker 2: we're tracking it. Everything's good, it moved out, it dissipated,
Speaker 2: and all is well at this point too. So if
Speaker 2: you want to lose sleep over this and get down
Speaker 2: a rabbit hole, I'm sure there's stuff online that'll scare
Speaker 2: the hell out of you. However, it is safe to
Speaker 2: say that most of us aren't one hundred and fifty pounds.
Speaker 2: I would like to talk next to you. If you
Speaker 2: I'm gonna have Richard as a guy who sets the
Speaker 2: average weight for Americans because I think he's a little drunk.
Speaker 3: Well that's that's the science behind develop these criterias. But
Speaker 3: I'm not near one hundred and fifty pounds.
Speaker 2: I just I just flew and there are maybe two
Speaker 2: people on the plane that were one hundred and fifty
Speaker 2: pounds and I included the toddlers. So yeah, well, I
Speaker 2: mean it's true. So what you're saying is if you
Speaker 2: weigh more, then you can absorb, you can absorb more
Speaker 2: p foss or is that true.
Speaker 3: Or I'm not gonna really say that. What I'm saying
Speaker 3: is that the background that USCPA uses to complete their studies,
Speaker 3: and so it's important to understand when criteria put out,
Speaker 3: it's based on a specific methodology that they follow from
Speaker 3: a science basis.
Speaker 2: I was trying to make an excuse and say, see
Speaker 2: that's the upside to obesity.
Speaker 3: You can.
Speaker 2: Richard Harrison, the executive Director, is the chief engineer at
Speaker 2: the Ohio River Valley Water Sanitation Commission. He's the guy
Speaker 2: policing our water sources in and around Ohio and elsewhere.
Speaker 2: And Richard I appreciate you coming on the show. I
Speaker 2: know I didn't want you talking out over your skis
Speaker 2: a little bit there, and I asked you some questions
Speaker 2: that were outside of your scope. But I appreciate coming
Speaker 2: on and trying to give us a basic understanding whether
Speaker 2: or not our drinking water is safe. And it sounds
Speaker 2: like it is.
Speaker 3: Always a pleasure. Scott the best play, take care, Thank.
Speaker 2: You once again, and we've got a news update in
Speaker 2: just minutes. Here our first mental health Monday update. Julie
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