1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:06,360 Speaker 1: It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ, Boston's news radio. 2 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:11,320 Speaker 2: Well, welcome back everybody. Thank you very much, Dan Watkins. 3 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 2: We had a guest during our eight o'clock hour a 4 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:21,439 Speaker 2: couple of weeks ago, Andrew mccoola. Did I hopefully have 5 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 2: pronounced that name correctly? Andrew? Is it mccoola? 6 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:25,759 Speaker 3: It is? Thank you. 7 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 4: Dan. 8 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 2: You're a senior Housing Fellow at the Pioneer Institute for 9 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 2: Public Policy Research and chair of the Legalized Starter Homes group, 10 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 2: and that is a group that has is attempting to 11 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 2: get a question on the ballot on next November, in 12 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 2: November of twenty twenty six. What is the purpose of 13 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 2: the ballot question in order to legalize starter homes? I 14 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 2: guess first of all, we'll let's talk about the ballot question, 15 00:00:57,200 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 2: what it purports to do, and then we can start 16 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 2: talking about starter homes homes and I think we're going 17 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 2: to have an interesting conversation and hopefully a lot of 18 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 2: questions from our listeners. So what is the deal with 19 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 2: the ballot question? Why is it necessary? 20 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:14,320 Speaker 3: Yeah? So, well, first of all, the ballot initiative is 21 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 3: for a law that would make it legal to build 22 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 3: single family homes on smaller lots that are typically allowed 23 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 3: in most Massachusetts suburbs today, as long as the lot 24 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 3: is served by public sewer and water services and has 25 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:30,320 Speaker 3: an adequate amount of frontage along the street. It's necessary 26 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 3: because I. 27 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 2: Think it's fifty feet along the street. Is that it? 28 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:40,119 Speaker 3: Yes, that's correct, Okay, Yeah, And it's necessary because you know, 29 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 3: we have a harrowing housing shortage in Massachusetts that's especially 30 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 3: acute for smaller homes. Right as of twenty twenty three, 31 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 3: only forty four percent of our housing stock has two 32 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 3: or fewer bedrooms, but sixty three of our households have 33 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 3: two or fewer people. And I understand that there are 34 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 3: certainly some scenarios in which you'd want to have more 35 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 3: bedrooms than people in your house, But for the typical 36 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 3: first time home buyer, it's daunting enough to save up 37 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 3: for a down payment without having to save up to 38 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 3: buy a house that's much larger than what you actually need. 39 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 3: And more broadly, active home listings in the market in 40 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 3: Massachusetts have declined by thirty four percent since shortly before COVID. 41 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 3: Residential vacancy rates are far below with housing economists considered 42 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 3: to be healthy. This is a crisis that touches all 43 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 3: aspects of our economy and our society. As you know, 44 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 3: our communities have trouble accommoding the next generation of homeowners. 45 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 2: Okay, so when you talk about residential vacancies again and 46 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:40,079 Speaker 2: a lot of that, you're familiar with it. My audience 47 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 2: may not be as familiar. So I'm going to just 48 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 2: pressure on that. What do you mean by residential vacancies? 49 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:50,800 Speaker 2: And I assume that, well, assume that means homes, and 50 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 2: that would include condominiums. And I don't know if we 51 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 2: have any co ops in Massachusetts. I'm not sure if 52 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 2: we do or not. But homes, condominiums that are currently vacant. 53 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 2: How what's the number? Small number? 54 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, So, residential vacancy rate is the share of homes 55 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 3: that are unoccupied as at a given time relative of 56 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 3: the total number of homes. Typically, it's broken down by tenure, 57 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 3: so whether it's an owner occupied home or a rental property. Generally, 58 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 3: economists think, you know, a healthy fatilitating a healthy amount 59 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:29,919 Speaker 3: of turnover in the market requires about six to eight 60 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 3: percent vacancy rate in rental properties. Right now, it's about 61 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 3: three percent in Massachusetts, and a healthy vacancy rate would 62 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 3: be about one and a half to two percent in 63 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:42,839 Speaker 3: owner occupied properties. Right now, it's about zero point five 64 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 3: percent in Massachusetts. 65 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 2: So it's tougher to find a home that is vacant, 66 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 2: and I assume that is an indicator that is even 67 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 2: tougher for the buyer to find potential homes that people 68 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 2: are putting on the market. Is there a correlation between 69 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 2: the vacant vacant home rates uh in homes that are 70 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 2: currently on the market. 71 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean. 72 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 2: Those numbers I assume are different. 73 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 3: So the way I'm getting my data from the American 74 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 3: Community Survey, which is a you know, self reported number 75 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:33,359 Speaker 3: used you know by housing researchers, economists. 76 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 2: I'm sure you're giving us good numbers, no problem. I 77 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 2: don't speak numbers, right. 78 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 3: My understanding is, I mean, home is going to be 79 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,679 Speaker 3: vacant for a number of reasons. Maybe they're up for sale, 80 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 3: Maybe they've been sold and the new occupant hasn't come 81 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:50,039 Speaker 3: in yet, you know, maybe there's a weak market and 82 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:52,920 Speaker 3: it's tough to find a new tenant. Maybe they're used 83 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 3: as a vacation home and unoccupied for most of the year. 84 00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 3: But typically especially in major metropolitan air low vacancy rates 85 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 3: are an indicator that the market's very tight and it's 86 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 3: hard to match people who want a home with homes 87 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:10,159 Speaker 3: that they can afford and that are available. 88 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 2: And the lower you know, availability. And I was trying 89 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 2: to distinguish between homes that are genuinely vacant and what 90 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 2: I assume is a larger subset of homes that are 91 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 2: currently on the market. I assume, and if I'm wrong here, 92 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:33,039 Speaker 2: that vacant homes is not the same as homes on 93 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 2: the market, that homes on the market would be somewhat 94 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 2: higher than vacant homes. It might subsume the vacant homes. 95 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 2: But I assume that if I am still living in 96 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 2: my home and I want to sell it, maybe moving, 97 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 2: I think you understand what I'm. 98 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 3: Trying to say. 99 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 2: Correct, Yeah, so that yes, yeah, okay. But at the 100 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 2: same time, the number of vacant homes probably is an 101 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:03,279 Speaker 2: indicator of the number of homes that are available, either 102 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 2: to purchase outright or to purchase through negotiations with a seller. 103 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 2: So this is a problem that all of us see 104 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:15,480 Speaker 2: that exists. We will agree it exists. The question that becomes, 105 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:19,840 Speaker 2: what's the solution to the problem, And your solution. Your 106 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 2: group solution is to basically, I guess, override the zoning 107 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 2: laws in communities, which is where you and I are 108 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 2: going to probably have a little bit of a disagreement. 109 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, we're giving a nudge to communities that 110 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 3: for a long time I made it very difficult to 111 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 3: accommodate new growth in the areas that you know, can 112 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 3: do so without requiring huge expansions of infrastructure. And I understand, 113 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,480 Speaker 3: I mean, zoning is a very you know, a lot 114 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 3: of communities hold it near and dear to their hearts. 115 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 2: But principle, I would argue. 116 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, the same time, you know, it's not a bloodoth set. 117 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:05,480 Speaker 3: The zoning's going to stay the same. It's a series 118 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:09,479 Speaker 3: of laws, and laws can and should change when in 119 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 3: their current form, they're responsible for pricing, you know, hundreds 120 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 3: of thousands of people out of the same opportunities for 121 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 3: home ownership that their parents had. I'm not asking for 122 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 3: it to be any easier to buy a home in 123 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 3: a nice suburb than it was forty years ago. I'm 124 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 3: just asking for it to not be so much harder. 125 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 2: So what about the counter argument that everybody who wants 126 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 2: to buy a house, you know, Obviously they have limited 127 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 2: everyone is well, virtually everyone has limited money available, Okay, 128 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 2: particularly younger people. But what about the countervailing argument that, look, 129 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 2: for you know, the most reasonable price. Let's assume we're 130 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 2: talking about three hundred thousand or four hundred thousand dollars, 131 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 2: which once was a big number. Now is is is 132 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 2: you don't get as much these for three hundred thousand 133 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 2: or four hundred thousand as you could that what about 134 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 2: the argument that, hey, you can't live in Wellesley, you 135 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 2: can't live in Whaleen, you can't live in Weston for 136 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 2: those numbers. You got to start off a little bit 137 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 2: further away from the city, just as your parents did 138 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 2: when when they were first entering the housing market. Or 139 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 2: is that just a crazy you know, it's just. 140 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 3: Yeah again, Dan, I'm not I'm not asking for it 141 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 3: to be any easier than it was for you know, 142 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 3: people forty years ago. But right now, I mean, nationally, 143 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 3: we've gone from a ratio of home price to incomes 144 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 3: of three to one in the seventies or so to 145 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 3: six to one today, and by the way, in Greater 146 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 3: Boston it's more like eight to one. So I think 147 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 3: this the escalating affordability problem. You can draw a pretty 148 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 3: clear line from you know, a lot of communities downzoning 149 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 3: and this seventies or so, once they were initially kind 150 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 3: of built out at what I would call relatively you know, 151 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:10,560 Speaker 3: suburban densities to the problem we have today where the 152 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 3: land values have exploded and so it's really difficult to 153 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 3: build homes that are affordable on the same lot sizes 154 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 3: that are you know, allowed in these communities today. 155 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 2: Oh, we're going to we're going to take a break 156 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 2: and we'll invite people to call. My guest is Andrew mccoola, 157 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,560 Speaker 2: Senior Housing Fellow at the Pioneer Institute for Public Policy 158 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 2: Research and chair of the Legalized Starter Homes. Have been 159 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 2: no communities in Massachusetts now where starter homes are legal? 160 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:47,959 Speaker 3: Andrew, Well, I would say that there are communities where, 161 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 3: you know, they are legal, but they are not viable 162 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:55,440 Speaker 3: to build or very very rarely are they viable to build, 163 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 3: right because again, it's the land prices, it's the cost 164 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 3: of construction, and it's the interest rates. There are a 165 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 3: lot of factors. But I think the way we solve 166 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:10,079 Speaker 3: this without you know, at a state or local level, 167 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:13,559 Speaker 3: is by focusing on what you can build and wear 168 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 3: and because that's been a huge barrier for many decades. 169 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 2: Okay, we'll pick up on that point when we come 170 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 2: back from the break. If you'd like to join the 171 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 2: conversation six one, seven, two, five, four ten thirty six 172 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 2: one seven, nine three, one ten thirty, feel free to 173 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 2: give us a call. Coming back on night. 174 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 1: Side, It's Night Side with Dan Ray on w Boston's 175 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 1: news radio. 176 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 2: We're talking with Andrew mccoolo. He's a Senior Housing Fellow 177 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 2: at the Pioneer Institute for Public Policy Research. He also 178 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 2: chairs to Legalize Start at Home initiative petition, which may 179 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 2: very well be on the ballot next November. I think 180 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 2: there's still a round of signatures that you folks have qualified, 181 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:01,559 Speaker 2: I think for the first round of signatures, but then 182 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 2: you've got to get nicks may a few more thousand signatures. 183 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 2: So how do you see this working. You're going to 184 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 2: go into a community the law, if the law passes, 185 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 2: it will say that starter homes have to be allowed 186 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:20,679 Speaker 2: in every community in Massachusetts. 187 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 3: That's not quite true. I mean, if the community has 188 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 3: some areas where there are public sewer and water services, yes, 189 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:34,839 Speaker 3: but in practice there are dozens, if not one hundred 190 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 3: or more communities. I'm not exactly sure that don't have 191 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 3: any you know, public sewer or water services at all. 192 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 2: So I assume that those folks, those communities would probably 193 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:48,560 Speaker 2: be in western Massachusetts, fair to say. 194 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 3: Western mass but there are certainly some here in eastern 195 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 3: mass Carlisle, Sherburne, Weston, Boxford. 196 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 2: Okay, So if you have a water and sewer system connection, 197 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 2: you then would be impacted by the law if it passes. 198 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 3: Correct or your area might be Yes, what. 199 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 2: Do you mean, your area the part of the community 200 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 2: that has water and sewer connections. 201 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean yes. I don't want anyone thinking that 202 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 3: anyone is forcing them to read about their properties. But 203 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 3: in your neighborhood there might be some homeowners who do. 204 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 2: Okay, you've confused me on that one. So what's what 205 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 2: I'm trying to say is that if the law were 206 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 2: to pass as proposed, and let's say you live in 207 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 2: a community, well, let's take Boston where you have water 208 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 2: and sewer connections, I assume for virtually everyone that lives 209 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 2: in Boston. Is that true? 210 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 3: I'm sure virtually everyone. I actually, Dan, can I confuse 211 00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 3: you a little bit? 212 00:12:57,360 --> 00:12:57,560 Speaker 4: More. 213 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 2: I'm not sure if you confuse me a little bit, well, 214 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 2: but go ahead, try go ahead. 215 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 3: Yeah. So Boston actually also isn't subject to this law 216 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 3: because it's not a part of Chapter forty A, which 217 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 3: is the part of state law that we'd be amending 218 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 3: bypassing this initiative. So for the same reason Boston isn't 219 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:21,200 Speaker 3: subject to the MESA Communities Act, it will't be projected. 220 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 2: So pretty much the same communities that are impacted by 221 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 2: the MBTA Communities Act, which are either contiguous or next 222 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:32,599 Speaker 2: to a community that is contiguous. Most of the I 223 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 2: think it's one hundred and seventy seven if I'm not mistaken, 224 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 2: was the most recent number I read that are subjects 225 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 2: of the MBTA Communities Act, where if they do not 226 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 2: allow a certain increase of housing units, they're then going 227 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 2: to be penalized by the state, which is, you know, 228 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 2: I think pretty nasty as well. The impact the impact 229 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 2: of this is that in a community that has zoning 230 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 2: laws and does have a you know, a sewer water 231 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 2: and sewer connection, they then are going to be impacted. Uh, 232 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 2: and there will be a number of houses which will 233 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 2: be built relatively inexpensively. Will that have the impact of 234 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 2: bringing down the value of other homes in the communities 235 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 2: where this would go into effect. Or is there no 236 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 2: impact on property values? 237 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 3: I think when we look at you know, modest scale 238 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 3: new construction, the impact on property values is going to 239 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 3: be very small. And that's even true in the academic 240 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 3: literature of multifamily housing that's built near other single family homes. 241 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 2: Empirically, what sort of I'm sorry, I mean to indrop. 242 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 3: Go ahead, Yeah, it's okay. At the volume of homes 243 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 3: we're talking about, you know, in the case of the 244 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 3: starter homes reform, likely building four, six, or maybe eight 245 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 3: homes at a time. The overall kind of loosening of 246 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 3: the market that comes from that, those increments doesn't really 247 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 3: show up on your you know, tax assessment form or 248 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 3: your your market value of your home when it goes 249 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 3: to sale. It's barely perceptible. 250 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 2: Well, if all of a sudden, on your street or 251 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 2: in your neighborhood there were five or six of these 252 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 2: smaller starter homes built, there'll be an impact in the 253 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 2: value of your home. Would you disagree with that? 254 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 3: Potentially in small ways. But I think the housing market operates, 255 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 3: you know, largely at a regional level and is relatively fluid, 256 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 3: So it could if you're really if you're trying to 257 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 3: sell a home that's very, very similar to these starter homes. Maybe, 258 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 3: but I think the most likely outcome in a lot 259 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 3: of places is you are going to get neighborhoods full 260 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 3: of half acre estate size lots with potentially a state 261 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 3: size homes that are redeveloped to include several smaller homes, 262 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 3: and so you know, maybe there's a different client tell 263 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 3: between who wants to move in to those starter homes 264 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 3: and who can afford the homes that are there already. 265 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 2: Okay, And then the other question is I assume there 266 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 2: will be an impact, particularly on the number of children 267 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 2: who would be attending schools in those communities. So there 268 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 2: would be an impact on your tax bill if starter 269 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 2: homes are being built in your community, because you're gonna 270 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 2: have more kids probably attending your school system, your public 271 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 2: school system. 272 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 3: Right or wrong, there could be. But a strong majority 273 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 3: of traditional public school districts in Massachusetts have seen declining 274 00:16:56,680 --> 00:17:00,120 Speaker 3: enrollment in the last few years, especially since before COVID, 275 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 3: So that's not to say there won't be any impacts 276 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 3: potentially to school capacity. But again, by the virtue of 277 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:10,399 Speaker 3: the reform we're doing here, we expect this development to 278 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 3: be incremental and allow communities to adapt and manage that 279 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 3: growth over time. 280 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 2: Okay, So then the last question I have for this hour, 281 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:19,680 Speaker 2: for this half hour, and then we're going to go 282 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:25,360 Speaker 2: to break. If the law passes next on November, how 283 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 2: many starter homes in the state do you project or 284 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 2: be built? Would this be like fifty starter homes across 285 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 2: the state or would be a number much higher than that. 286 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 3: That's not something we've quantified internally, and it really depends 287 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 3: on how it's implemented. 288 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 2: I bet you yeah, because that number will work against you. 289 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 2: You know that. 290 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 3: Well, it really depends how it's implemented. But we do 291 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:54,120 Speaker 3: know from prior zoning reforms and people who've studied those 292 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 3: reforms that generally speaking, in a given year, only one 293 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 3: to two percent of the e that are subject to 294 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 3: the zoning change turnover and actually redeveloped. 295 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:09,159 Speaker 2: I love, by the way that everything like something like 296 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 2: this it's characterized as a reform, because the reform is 297 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 2: a word that that is a very positive word. Some 298 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,239 Speaker 2: people might not see this as a positive, and they 299 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 2: might see it simply as a change anyway, Andrew, you're 300 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 2: a great sport here to have the conversation. We'll get 301 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 2: to some phone calls and see what people think. Again, 302 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:31,439 Speaker 2: I think that if I was a young person in 303 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 2: the home market trying to get out of my rent check, 304 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 2: this might be something that I would really be interested in. If, 305 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:40,679 Speaker 2: on the other hand, I live in a community that 306 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 2: would be impacted by it, I might be a little 307 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 2: bit concerned about the lack of specifics in terms of 308 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 2: the impact of this, either reform or zoning change, however 309 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 2: you want to characterize it. We'll take a break. Phone 310 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 2: calls six one, seven, two, five, four, ten thirty, six, seven, 311 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 2: nine thirty and back on Nightside. 312 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 1: Night Side God with Dan Ray on WBZ, Boston's news radio. 313 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 2: We are talking with my guest Andrew mccoolough. He is 314 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 2: a senior Housing Fellow at the Pirate Institute for Public 315 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 2: Policy Research who we're talking about what's called starter homes. 316 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 2: Most of these homes you said would be on one 317 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 2: eighth of an acre lot, if I'm not mistaken, correct, 318 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 2: so five. 319 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,920 Speaker 3: Thousand square feet will be a new lot side threshold. 320 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 3: It's dressable. I mean, there are going to be topography 321 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 3: issues something else that prevents them from being that it's about. 322 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 2: An eighth of it. It's about an that's an acre 323 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:43,439 Speaker 2: is about forty two forty three thousand square feet, so 324 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 2: five thousand. It's about an eighth of an acre. But 325 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:48,360 Speaker 2: it has to have a frontage or street frontage of 326 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 2: fifty feet. And let's go to phone calls. Let's see 327 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,399 Speaker 2: what people have to say, what questions they might have 328 00:19:55,480 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 2: to ask, because this will be a hot topic, I 329 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 2: think when all of the ballot questions are finally approved 330 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 2: imprinted sometime in twenty twenty six, Bill and Weston joins 331 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:12,440 Speaker 2: US first. Bill, welcome you a first tonight on Nice 332 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 2: Side with Andrew McCollough of the Pioneer Institute for Public 333 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:17,399 Speaker 2: Policy Research. Go right ahead, Bill. 334 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 4: Good Evening, Dan Good evening, Andrew. I have to speak 335 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 4: plainly here because I really I'm trying to in my 336 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 4: mind trying to consider how this could possibly be a 337 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 4: well thought out or even possibly well thought out or 338 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:43,120 Speaker 4: vetted idea, because from an economic standpoint, it makes zero 339 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 4: economic sense for anybody with a valuable property to vote 340 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 4: for this. Okay, Moreover, I would submit to you that 341 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:58,440 Speaker 4: there are fundamental economic problems with our society, student loans, 342 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 4: private firms buying residential homes. Those two individual problems in 343 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 4: and of themselves are driving the prices of homes upward. 344 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 4: In addition, we have inflation, right, because with inflation, the 345 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:19,639 Speaker 4: cost of goods goes up. So guess what, the cost 346 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 4: of building goes up. So there are so many fundamental 347 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 4: flaws with this idea that we really need to go 348 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:31,120 Speaker 4: back to the drawing board here, Dan. 349 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 2: Well, let's get Andrew to respond to that. I mean, 350 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:38,399 Speaker 2: there are factors over which none of us probably have 351 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 2: as much control. Some of the facts as you mentioned. Andrew, 352 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 2: say hello to Bill from Western and your response to 353 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 2: some of the fundamental issues that he's raised. 354 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, Hi, and Bill. So, first of all, I mean 355 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 3: you can look at other states that have implemented very 356 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 3: similar reforms and how they've shaken out, from Maine to Texas. 357 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 3: You know, they have lots thresholds that are the same 358 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 3: or smaller than ours in a kind of preemptive manner, 359 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:08,880 Speaker 3: especially in you know, larger communities or places that have modern. 360 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 4: Like Dallas, right or or typical you know blue blue 361 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:20,680 Speaker 4: held type of political environments where where the desire to 362 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 4: to implement this thing to push urban sprawl out to 363 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 4: the suburbs. Correct. 364 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 3: I think a lot of the politics of this are 365 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 3: very different in Texas right where you have a you know, 366 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 3: a coalition of business model in Dallas people who are Bill. 367 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 2: Give give him a chance to respond, and then you 368 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 2: we're not going to catch you off. Don't worry. Give 369 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 2: him a chance to respond, Okay, go ahead, go ahead, Andrew. 370 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 3: And you know, it was passed by Republican led legislature 371 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 3: where you know, they're making arguments that are more based 372 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 3: in you know, expanding property rights for homeowners and anything 373 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 3: to do with you know, kind of progressive rhetoric here. 374 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,640 Speaker 3: And I'll also say that I do think homeowners who 375 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 3: you know, live in some of these communities have a 376 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 3: very strong reason to support it in at least some context. 377 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 3: I understand, you know a lot of folks don't want 378 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:16,239 Speaker 3: their neighborhoods to change. But you know, it raises it 379 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 3: potentially raises the value of land when you increase the 380 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 3: development potential of it. So you know, if you're you're 381 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 3: planning on having a comfortable retirement and you know, or 382 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 3: you just want more flexibility for you know, accommodating, you know, 383 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,960 Speaker 3: the next generation directly on your property. If you're can't 384 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 3: afford to hire a contractor yourself. I think that's that's 385 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,399 Speaker 3: there's certainly an alignment of interest there. And lastly, I 386 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 3: think you know you've brought up there are a lot 387 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 3: of other issues with the property market that are raising costs. 388 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 3: I think they're you know, potentially out of the hands 389 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:56,440 Speaker 3: of certainly localities to do much about. But there is vigorous. 390 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,120 Speaker 2: Okay, give him a chance, Andrew, give him a chance 391 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:01,159 Speaker 2: to jump in, because I I can hear that the 392 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:02,199 Speaker 2: Bill wants to respond. 393 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,920 Speaker 4: Bill, go ahead, Well, I was just going to say. 394 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 4: What I was going to say was is if if 395 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 4: the uh, the economic factor is very paramount here, because 396 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 4: the fact of the matter is is that if I 397 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 4: build a starter home in a community where the value 398 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,920 Speaker 4: of my property is substantially higher than what would be 399 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:29,879 Speaker 4: in say an urban area, Okay, what's that gonna do. 400 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 4: That's gonna do two things. That's going to lower the 401 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,400 Speaker 4: value of my property, and it'll defeat your idea which 402 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 4: will raise the value or the purchase price of these 403 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 4: starter homes. What are you going to do cap the 404 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,719 Speaker 4: price of the starter home when you're when you're you're, 405 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 4: you're you're building it next to a McMansion. 406 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:50,440 Speaker 3: So the way the value comes down is we're spreading 407 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 3: the cost of the land across you know more hard 408 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:54,680 Speaker 3: Why do. 409 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 4: I want with property value to come down? 410 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 3: It's not coming down, it's the it's the overall value 411 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 3: could go up. But the value of an individual home 412 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 3: because it's tied to the development potential of the land, right, 413 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,440 Speaker 3: it's it's more valuable because you can do more with it. 414 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:20,120 Speaker 4: Well, you mentioned Sherborne, right, So if the value average 415 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,159 Speaker 4: value of my home in Sherborne is one and a 416 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 4: half million dollars and I build a on a five 417 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 4: thousand square foot property, a starter home that sells for 418 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,199 Speaker 4: three hundred and fifty grand, how does that not drive 419 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 4: the value of my home down? 420 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,120 Speaker 3: Well, first of all, I mentioned Sherborne because the law 421 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 3: wouldn't like Shriborn, wouldn't be subject to the lobby. 422 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 4: That doesn't matter the town as an example, any any 423 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,360 Speaker 4: town that's not subject to m WI water will will 424 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 4: suit your endeavor. I'm assuming. 425 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 3: Yes, so, but you're I mean, I don't think it's 426 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 3: realistic to say that you're going to be building a 427 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,919 Speaker 3: starter home in Sherborn for three hundred and fifty thousand dollars. 428 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 3: Even with this that's a very specific that's a very 429 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,400 Speaker 3: specific argument. But you know, you get a builder who 430 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,440 Speaker 3: wants to build in a certain community, they and you've 431 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 3: you've made the zoning laws, you've basically overtaken the zoning 432 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 3: the local zoning laws. You're you're certainly going to get 433 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:25,880 Speaker 3: those homes built. I mean, you could if the economics 434 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 3: support it. But again, because construction costs are so high 435 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 3: and the land costs are so high, you really need 436 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 3: to do, you know, in really high cost communities, probably 437 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 3: a lot more than build modest single family homes. 438 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 2: If I could jump in, if I could jump in, 439 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,679 Speaker 2: gentlemen and ask a question, and that is this Andrew, 440 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 2: when a bill could comment in it as well. The 441 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:53,439 Speaker 2: baby Boomer generation was born between nineteen forty six and 442 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:58,120 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty four, so that means the youngest baby Boomers 443 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:02,879 Speaker 2: at this point are in their late fifties. That means 444 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 2: that the baby Boomer generation, which owns a lot of homes, 445 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 2: is passing from the housing market. Maybe they're going to 446 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 2: assist that living maybe they're just passing generally, If we 447 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,159 Speaker 2: wait a few years, won't we have a glut of 448 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 2: homes andrew that will be coming on the market, which 449 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:30,640 Speaker 2: might make of homes much more affordable for people who 450 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,359 Speaker 2: are looking to get into our first time home ownership. 451 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,679 Speaker 2: Isn't there something that if we wait here, you know, 452 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:42,360 Speaker 2: just generationally, this problem is going to solve itself. 453 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 3: Well, Increasingly older folks are choosing to remain in independent 454 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 3: living arrangements well into their seventies and eighties as opposed 455 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,360 Speaker 3: to living in nursing homes or the relatives. So that 456 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 3: tends to you know, increase demand for housing. And at 457 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 3: the same time, the millennial generation is starting to form 458 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,399 Speaker 3: families at a pretty rapid clip, now delayed though it 459 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 3: was relative to generations past. And despite you know, relatively 460 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 3: slow population growth overall in Massachusetts, the rate of household 461 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:19,679 Speaker 3: formation is still pretty high, and so housing demand is 462 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:24,879 Speaker 3: really strong even despite this you know, potential demographic clip 463 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,920 Speaker 3: that may or may not play out how you anticipate. 464 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,360 Speaker 2: Well, but okay, all I'm just saying is that if 465 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,119 Speaker 2: you moved down two or three years this this this 466 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 2: issue won't even be voted on until next November when 467 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 2: it might be implemented, et cetera. All of a sudden, 468 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 2: you might find yourself that that this might have been 469 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 2: a better idea ten years ago than it would be today. 470 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 2: Build final quick comment from you is that I gotta 471 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 2: I gotta wrap it up. 472 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 4: A couple of points. First off, you're absolutely correct, Dan, 473 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 4: there is a demographic shift going on. The Generation X 474 00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 4: is substantially smaller than both the millennials as well as 475 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 4: the baby mover, so so there will be a lot 476 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 4: of homes. And there's and there's another adage in economics, 477 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 4: which is the cure for high prices is high prices, 478 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 4: and and that will ultimately economics one oh one will 479 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 4: solve this issue. 480 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 2: All right, Bill, appreciate your carl. We got to take 481 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,560 Speaker 2: a quick break, Andrew, we got more phone calls six 482 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,720 Speaker 2: one seven two five Ford. Thank you, Bill. Six one seven, 483 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 2: five four ten thirty, six one seven, nine thirty. I 484 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 2: think this is a fascinating discussion for every age group. 485 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 2: So whatever your age, if you feel that this is important, 486 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 2: please ask a question. Andrew knows this issue inside and out. 487 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 2: He is as we've mentioned, he is the leader of 488 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 2: an initiative petition which will be on the ballot. I 489 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 2: suspect legalized starter homes here in Massachusetts. Be right back 490 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 2: on nightside, Kathleen and Tingsboro, you're next, say right there, 491 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 2: coming back on nightside. 492 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 1: You're on night side, Dan Ray, un done you Bzy 493 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 1: Boston's News Radio. 494 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 2: Back to the phones we go, going to go to 495 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 2: Kathleen and Tingsboro. Kathleen, welcome. You're with my guest Andrew 496 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 2: McCullough Pioneer Institute, talk about starter homes. Go right ahead, Kathleen. 497 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 5: Hello, Hello Dan. As always, I love how you bring 498 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 5: up new topics. And this is a very interesting topic 499 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 5: in Kingsboro. When forty B came in, I don't know 500 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 5: and Andrew talks about this. So is this supposed to 501 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 5: change the forty B laws that we have right now? 502 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 5: Where for instance, and I'm going to use Tingsboro because 503 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 5: that's where I live. It's pieces of land which some 504 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 5: of us would find undesirable, and they are undesirable for 505 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 5: a number of reasons. We're allowed to be sold to 506 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 5: a developer and then townhouses, slash condominiums and a very 507 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 5: dense set up were allowed to be built or you know, 508 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 5: are in the process of being built in very congested areas, 509 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 5: and those very congested areas do have tour lines and 510 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 5: they do have water lines, and the impact of traffic 511 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 5: in those congested areas got worse, for instance, and it's 512 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 5: created an impact on our school system as well. And 513 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 5: the school systems, you know, couldn't say no to these projects. 514 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 5: And the for instance in Kingsboro and I know a 515 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 5: lot of the other cities, they were told that they 516 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 5: had to have a certain percentage of these foodyb houses 517 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 5: placed in their communities that they weren't going to be 518 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 5: eligible for state funding. And then the state funding, you know, 519 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 5: got cut back. And also these developers found out that 520 00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 5: they couldn't you know, the amount of money that they 521 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 5: could charge for the affordable housing is, you know, even 522 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 5: though they were doing the same building for instance, for 523 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 5: say a fair market you know, or on the market pipe, 524 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 5: for whatever it is, they couldn't recoup that and they 525 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:14,239 Speaker 5: weren't getting funding for it. 526 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 2: So I want to Kathy, I want to drive you 527 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 2: to a question if you can't here, because you've certainly 528 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,479 Speaker 2: laid out a lot of problems, But what is your 529 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 2: question for Andrew? 530 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,920 Speaker 5: I guess what I'm trying to figure out is are 531 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 5: these are these starter homes going to be geared towards 532 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 5: you know, low to moderate income residents, and what impact 533 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 5: will that have on a quarter acre with such high 534 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 5: density as far as the traffic is concerned? 535 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 2: A police just just do you favor? Okay, I love 536 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 2: you your enthusiasm, but just drive to a question because 537 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 2: you're making a speech. Okay, just drive to a question. 538 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 5: So I guess I want to know. 539 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 6: I guess what I'm asking is, is the high density 540 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 6: on a quarter acre if Andrew used the example of 541 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 6: five or six houses for instance, what impact and has 542 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 6: anyone studied the impact it's going to have on the 543 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 6: traffic and on the density and the number of residents 544 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 6: now that weren't normally on that land, and. 545 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 5: What will it have to the other people who live 546 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 5: in that community? 547 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 3: Right? Yeah? I mean, so the starter Homes proposal is 548 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,720 Speaker 3: a little bit different from forty B because forty B 549 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 3: is trying to, you know, circumvent local zoning under certain scenarios. 550 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 3: But it's the kind of opt in on the part 551 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,959 Speaker 3: of the developer to pursue that this is setting a 552 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:53,719 Speaker 3: baseline in kind of the zoning itself. Whereas and importantly, 553 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 3: you know, the density we expect from this sort of 554 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 3: proposal is going to be less than is typical and 555 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 3: most forty B developments. There's no requirement in the Starter 556 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,440 Speaker 3: Homes law that these homes cost a certain amount or 557 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 3: are reserved for people making below a certain income. More broadly, 558 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,480 Speaker 3: building more homes in general, even if they are relatively 559 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 3: high end, tends to reduce the amount of competition among 560 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,920 Speaker 3: buyers for a given home and therefore cause home values 561 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 3: to appreciate slower over time, albeit not necessarily property values 562 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 3: to go down in absolute terms, like Bill was talking about. 563 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,279 Speaker 3: But on traffic, we've tried to minimize the impacts by 564 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,319 Speaker 3: not only applying this reform to areas with public sewer 565 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,399 Speaker 3: and water services, so disproportionately they're going to be close 566 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:44,400 Speaker 3: to major job centers and transit stops, et cetera, shorter commutes, 567 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 3: keep some cars off the road, et cetera. But also, 568 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,400 Speaker 3: you know it's taking place in bite size pieces of 569 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 3: for or six homes of a time, so that again 570 00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:58,719 Speaker 3: the towns have the ability to adapt over time when 571 00:34:59,000 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 3: issues crop up. 572 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,800 Speaker 5: Okay, but I also want to know what the impact 573 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 5: is going to be. In your example, you gave like 574 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,279 Speaker 5: a quarter acre, and there could be four or five 575 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:14,760 Speaker 5: six houses. If these if these starter homes attract young 576 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 5: families and they have you know, an average of say 577 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 5: two children, whatever the statistical data is, what is that 578 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:28,279 Speaker 5: impact going to be on that school system? And that 579 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:29,760 Speaker 5: is of concern as well. 580 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, in a typical single family home in twenty 581 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 3: twenty five, I think there's you know, one school of 582 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:42,560 Speaker 3: child for every three homes or so. And I think 583 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:44,320 Speaker 3: Ben and I got into this a little bit earlier, 584 00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 3: where you know, seventy percent or so of traditional public 585 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:52,880 Speaker 3: school districts in Greater Boston have seen declining enrollment, especially 586 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 3: since you know the COVID lockdowns, So you know there 587 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 3: might be some impacts in school districts that are growing. 588 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 3: But again we've tt it to be incremental enough to 589 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:09,440 Speaker 3: allow the town to accommodate that growth over time, just 590 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 3: like you know, any growing community does with proper planning. 591 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 3: So the law isn't doing that work on behalf of 592 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:21,319 Speaker 3: these towns, but it is you know, allowing for that 593 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 3: planning to take place in a thoughtful way. 594 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,759 Speaker 5: Now are you going to uh this, does this law 595 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 5: waiver certain lots or certain areas that they are undesirable 596 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,239 Speaker 5: because they have wetlands or they have, you know, or 597 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,719 Speaker 5: they're upland from a ripe earing zone and they can 598 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 5: flood or are those Uh does this law bypass that 599 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,719 Speaker 5: or will the towns have to take that into consideration 600 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,440 Speaker 5: during the review process with their constant vet kitchen commissions 601 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 5: or their planning boards. 602 00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:56,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. 603 00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,880 Speaker 3: So the only thing we're changing in this law is 604 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:03,120 Speaker 3: the lot size on which you're allowed to build a 605 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:06,719 Speaker 3: home under you know, certain parameters, including that you have 606 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:10,400 Speaker 3: public sewer and water services on the lot and an 607 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 3: adequate amount of you know, land fronting the street. But 608 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 3: everything else, height requirements, you know, the distance of the 609 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,719 Speaker 3: home can be to the property line, wetlands protections, all 610 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,320 Speaker 3: of that is still fully in the control of the towns, 611 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 3: with the caveat that we've given the state the ability 612 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 3: to determine what counts as so called reasonable regulations in 613 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 3: the new law for the purpose of implementing it, so 614 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:40,320 Speaker 3: that towns can't you know, circumvent it entirely by enacting 615 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,759 Speaker 3: requirements to make it impossible to you know, build a 616 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:45,200 Speaker 3: starter home anywhere. Essentially. 617 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,719 Speaker 2: Okay, folks, we're flat out of time, Kathleen, good questions. 618 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,160 Speaker 2: I think we'll shopping up the questions next time a 619 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:54,080 Speaker 2: little bit. But thank you very much for calling. 620 00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:57,319 Speaker 5: I appreciate it, Dan, thank you so much. 621 00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:59,839 Speaker 2: All I talk to you so Andrew, I'm sure will 622 00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 2: be talking about this some more often. If folks want 623 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:05,840 Speaker 2: to get in touch with you or your organization, what's 624 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:07,080 Speaker 2: the best way they can do that? 625 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:12,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean legalized starterhomes dot com is our website, 626 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,239 Speaker 3: and let me just say, you know, over the holidays, 627 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:18,920 Speaker 3: I'll try to perm up some numbers on impact and 628 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 3: maybe you know, once we're officially on the ballot, I 629 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:22,879 Speaker 3: can report back. 630 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, you won't get officially in the ballot, I assume 631 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:29,000 Speaker 2: until sometime next summer. I believe that the second round 632 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:34,040 Speaker 2: of signatures are collected in May. But we can talk 633 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:37,719 Speaker 2: about this beforehand, because again I see this as well 634 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 2: as the the the the MBTA Communities act As is 635 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:48,680 Speaker 2: really undermining local zoning laws, which I think on the 636 00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:51,400 Speaker 2: backbone of communities. And this is one that you and 637 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,000 Speaker 2: I probably are never going to agree on. But I 638 00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:57,160 Speaker 2: do appreciate your demeanor, and I appreciate the conversation we 639 00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:00,479 Speaker 2: had tonight, and I hope we can add more. Really, yeah, 640 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,680 Speaker 2: really mean that. I hope anytime we'll get you back, Okay. 641 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:08,960 Speaker 3: Yeah. Conversating is, you know, the bedrock of our democracy 642 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 3: and I appreciate that absolutely. 643 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:16,759 Speaker 2: Thanks Andrew, I appreciate it very much. Okay, good night. 644 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:20,520 Speaker 2: When we get back, we're going to talk about a 645 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 2: problem that most of us have dealt with, and that 646 00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:29,360 Speaker 2: is bad customer service. We have an author, amas to Numa, 647 00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:31,960 Speaker 2: coming up. He's written a book, Hold, The Suffering Economy 648 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:36,319 Speaker 2: of Customer Service and the Revolt that's long overdue. I 649 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:38,719 Speaker 2: am so with him on this. We'll talk to him 650 00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:40,320 Speaker 2: right after the ten o'clock News