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Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Doctor Wendy Wall Show on KFI

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Speaker 1: AM six forty live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. My

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Speaker 1: next guest is a like mind with me. She and

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Speaker 1: I are on such the same page. Maybe we are

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Speaker 1: sisters from another mother.

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Speaker 2: Not sure. Her name is Julie Manano.

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Speaker 1: She is a licensed marriage and family therapist from la

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Speaker 1: but now in beautiful Bozeman, Montana. But she has an

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Speaker 1: amazing new book called Secure Love, Create a relationship that

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Speaker 1: lasts a lifetime.

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Speaker 2: Julie, Am I gonna say it right? Manano? I got it, Banana,

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Speaker 2: you got it.

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Speaker 1: There's a little bar in my neighborhood called Hanano, So

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Speaker 1: I'll just think of that bar and I'll think of

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Speaker 1: you Manano.

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Speaker 2: Hanano.

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Speaker 3: There you go. I love it.

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Speaker 1: So before we get going, I just want to say

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Speaker 1: something I have always said, because I am the living

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Speaker 1: example of it, that love can be learned.

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Speaker 2: Do you agree? Why how do we learn it?

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Speaker 3: I absolutely do think love can be learned. I think that,

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Speaker 3: you know, we think of a lot of people think

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Speaker 3: of love as an emotional experience, and the way I

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Speaker 3: like to describe it, and I'm sure you'll agree, is

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Speaker 3: it's an emotional experience that motivates action, and the actual

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Speaker 3: love is the act of behaving toward a person in

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Speaker 3: a way that helps them feel valuable, cherished, heard, understood,

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Speaker 3: cared for, interested in, delighted in, and wanted. And we

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Speaker 3: can absolutely learn how to you know, the words to

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Speaker 3: use to basically pass that message along to someone, pass

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Speaker 3: the feelings along to someone. And if we don't do that,

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Speaker 3: then what's going to happen is you're going to bring

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Speaker 3: tension into the relationship and then that person will not

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Speaker 3: feel loved and then their behavior will you know, reflect

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Speaker 3: that toward you and cause you to actually lose your

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Speaker 3: feeling of love potentially, you know.

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Speaker 1: Or you'll have multiple bad relationships that don't end well

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Speaker 1: because you haven't haven't learned that. You know. I talk

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Speaker 1: a lot on this show about attachment theory and that

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Speaker 1: our model for love. I hate the psychobabble, the working

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Speaker 1: model for love. I basically, our idea for love gets

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Speaker 1: formed in the first few years of life. But you know,

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Speaker 1: it gets formed because we learned it then, and we

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Speaker 1: can also unlearn and learn things. What are some of

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Speaker 1: the most common things that couples present to you that

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Speaker 1: help that helps you teach them how to love better.

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Speaker 3: Well, one of the things that I get a lot

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Speaker 3: of is, you know, people coming to me after years

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Speaker 3: or decades even of just chronic emotional abandonments. And you know,

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Speaker 3: these don't things don't have to be big affairs or

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Speaker 3: you know the things, you know, physical violence, none of that,

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Speaker 3: it doesn't have to be. You know, people can be

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Speaker 3: just as distressed through chronic emotional abandonment. And when I

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Speaker 3: say emotional abandonment, I mean you know, their their attachment

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Speaker 3: needs have gone unmet for so long that they experience

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Speaker 3: the relationship as you know, threatening and they're on a

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Speaker 3: nervous system level or just not fulfilling. And so the

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Speaker 3: way that we get there is just chronically misunderstood, chronically invalidated,

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Speaker 3: emotionally chronically not comforted, chronically reaching for help and not

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Speaker 3: having that loving response, feeling, you know, like you're not

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Speaker 3: seen as a good partner or appreciated. Just all of

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Speaker 3: these these things that you know, we we tend to

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Speaker 3: take for granted, especially when life is so busy and

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Speaker 3: you know, we were so distracted by so many different things.

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Speaker 3: And so what I do is I just teach people, hey, listen,

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Speaker 3: let me help you start communicating with each other in

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Speaker 3: a way that isn't just words, it's actually you passing

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Speaker 3: along felt sense of safety, giving your partner a felt

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Speaker 3: sense of being cared for and understood and nurtured. And let's,

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Speaker 3: you know, let's start to undo the damage. Let's start

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Speaker 3: to have conversations about how both of you have been

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Speaker 3: impacted by years of not feeling like you were there

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Speaker 3: for each other.

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Speaker 1: And what do you say to those people who say, hey,

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Speaker 1: their feelings are not my responsibility, or they're overthinking this,

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Speaker 1: they're overreacting, they're so you know, hypersensitive. How do you respond?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think that's one of the saddest things that

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Speaker 3: can happen to a person is to have been their

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Speaker 3: entire life, you know, from their childhood, and then in

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Speaker 3: their present day relationship not feeling heard, not feeling understood,

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Speaker 3: not feeling validated, and then feeling crazy over that because

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Speaker 3: our bodies are wired to not have a good reaction

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Speaker 3: to that experience, and then trying to reach and get

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Speaker 3: that need met, and sometimes people don't know how to

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Speaker 3: reach in a healthy way and then get a response, well,

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Speaker 3: you're just crazy. You want too much, like you said,

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Speaker 3: and I just have to teach people like, look, this

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Speaker 3: is not abnormal for this person to be crying out

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Speaker 3: because their attachment needs aren't being met. And you know,

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Speaker 3: I've got to get you guys to a place where

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Speaker 3: what happens is is people stop crying when they start

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Speaker 3: getting what they're crying for. And so I tell you know,

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Speaker 3: just to kind of answer your question simply, if someone

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Speaker 3: tells me, well, I'm not responsible for their feelings, I say, well, yes,

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Speaker 3: that's true. But if someone dedicates their life to you,

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Speaker 3: they give themselves to you, they give you their time

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Speaker 3: and their energy. You are responsible for helping them be

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Speaker 3: emotionally comfortable in life. It is not all of your responsibility,

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Speaker 3: but it is your responsibility to do your part.

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Speaker 1: You talk about emotional coregulation and creating emotional safety. What

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Speaker 1: does that look like in a practical sense.

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Speaker 3: Well, it looks like if one partner comes to the

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Speaker 3: other and says, hey, you know, I need to talk

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Speaker 3: to you about something I'm not you know, something happened,

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Speaker 3: I'm not happy about it, and I want to put

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Speaker 3: it out there. Let's have a talk about it. And

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Speaker 3: the other partner says, well, I don't have time right now.

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Speaker 3: Why do you have to bring things up all the time.

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Speaker 3: Why can't you just be happy? What happens is is

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Speaker 3: that creates a felt sense in the person who brought

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Speaker 3: this up. It it creates a felt sense of their

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Speaker 3: body of fear, and it causes their nervous system to

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Speaker 3: get tight and they go into kind of a fight

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Speaker 3: or fight reaction. And that is a disregulation. It's a

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Speaker 3: place in your body that says something is wrong, something

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Speaker 3: you know, we need to get some safety here. And

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Speaker 3: so that's a disregulating response as opposed to if that

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Speaker 3: person's response is okay, you know, yeah, it always makes

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Speaker 3: me a little nervous to know there's a concern, but

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Speaker 3: you know, I'm here, I'm open, you know, let's let's

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Speaker 3: take a deep breath, let's sit down, let's talk about this.

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Speaker 3: And the differences is that creates a safe feeling in

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Speaker 3: the other person's body. It feels like, Okay, I'm going

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Speaker 3: to be hurt, I'm going to get my needs met,

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Speaker 3: And so they're co regulating as opposed to disregulating when

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Speaker 3: we're just elevating each other.

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Speaker 1: And I loved how you just use the example of

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Speaker 1: the person who's being sort of criticized for not giving

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Speaker 1: enough compassion or love or empathy, gets to start by

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Speaker 1: talking about their feelings like this is kind of uncomfortable

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Speaker 1: to me. I was never taught how to deal with

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Speaker 1: this kind of stuff. So they get to lead also

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Speaker 1: being heard for what their experience is at that moment.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, you know, everybody gets their needs met, everybody gets

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Speaker 3: to feel heard. I mean, I think partners really get

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Speaker 3: in trouble when they start trying to do it both

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Speaker 3: at once. When partner brings something up, and a lot

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Speaker 3: of times the other partner maybe just chronically doesn't bring

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Speaker 3: stuff up, and so when the first partner brings something up,

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Speaker 3: they use that as an opportunity to now bring their

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Speaker 3: stuff up. I think partners get completely stuck.

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Speaker 1: It's just it becomes an arms race of unmet needs.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely exactly what great term for that.

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Speaker 2: Right now, Julie, we have to go to a break.

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Speaker 1: When we come back, I want to talk specifically about conflict,

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Speaker 1: and I'm going to share a story about the first

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Speaker 1: time my now husband and I had conflict early in

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Speaker 1: our dating life and something that came of it that

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Speaker 1: was a positive. My guest is Julie Minano. She's a

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Speaker 1: licensed marriage and family therapist. Her book is called Oh

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Speaker 1: where did it go? On this piece of paper?

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Speaker 2: There?

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Speaker 1: It is secure love, Create a relationship. Secure love, Create

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Speaker 1: a relationship that lasts a lifetime. You're listening to the

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Speaker 1: Dr Wendy Wall Show on k I AM six forty

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Speaker 1: Live Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. Welcome back to the

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Speaker 1: Doctor Wendy Wall Show on k I AM six forty

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Speaker 1: Live Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. My guest is Julie Minano,

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Speaker 1: a licensed marriage and family therapist an author of the

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Speaker 1: book Secure Love. It's what we all want, isn't it

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Speaker 1: a secure love?

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Speaker 2: Julie? Conflict is normal, isn't it?

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Speaker 3: Very much? So? Absolutely, it's the only way we grow.

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Speaker 1: In fact, I think I read a study one time

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Speaker 1: that said that the healthiest couples have the most frequent conflict.

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Speaker 1: But it's not big wars, it's tiny border skirmishes. Well,

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Speaker 1: they're just constantly gently negotiating their boundaries.

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Speaker 2: And I love that thought. But I want to share

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Speaker 2: a story. Oh interesting, Yeah, when I first met.

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Speaker 1: My husband, we were only like a few dates into it,

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Speaker 1: maybe four or five dates into it, and I was

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Speaker 1: the passenger seat driving in the car with my adult

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Speaker 1: daughter driving and she drove very fast and was speeding,

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Speaker 1: and as all mothers get permission to do every once

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Speaker 1: in a while, I yelled at my kid. I was like,

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Speaker 1: slow down, right, And at that time I was on

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Speaker 1: the phone with the hot guy I just met, and

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Speaker 1: he overheard this, and by the time I met him

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Speaker 1: later for dinner, I felt him withdrawing. I felt him

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Speaker 1: moving away, and I said, like, what's up, Like you're

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Speaker 1: different tonight, and he said, I just I don't like

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Speaker 1: yelling and I don't like angry women.

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Speaker 2: And rather than me defending.

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Speaker 1: My action like why I yelled at my daughter or

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Speaker 1: that all mothers yell, or or feeling like apologizing, it

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Speaker 1: was Zerry, you know, still like me. Instead, I just

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Speaker 1: did a little body scan and I found myself saying

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Speaker 1: I have like a running feeling right now, like I

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Speaker 1: want to run out the door because I feel embarrassed.

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Speaker 1: And he moved toward me, put his hand on my

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Speaker 1: shoulder and said, no, no, it's not that bad. And

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Speaker 1: it was that moment where we had intimacy. I got

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Speaker 1: to express my feelings, he got to express his. But

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Speaker 1: he's saying we're not it's not over. Because of this,

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Speaker 1: I don't yell around him anymore. Now I know he

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Speaker 1: has a tender spot there. So let's talk about how

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Speaker 1: beautiful how people can have conflict and still stay emotionally connected.

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Speaker 2: What do you say to your patients?

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, I always say, look, it's not the conflict.

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Speaker 3: I mean, everybody has conflicts, you know, different ways of

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Speaker 3: doing things, different ways of seeing things. It's how are

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Speaker 3: we communicating through the conflict?

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Speaker 2: How are we?

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Speaker 3: Are we sending messages? Dike? With you and your husband,

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Speaker 3: are we sending messages? Hey, I'm going to be vulnerable

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Speaker 3: with you. I'm gonna you know, I want to hear

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Speaker 3: what you have to say about this. I care, you know,

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Speaker 3: I'm open. I'm not maybe going to end up agreeing

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Speaker 3: with you at the end of the day, but you

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Speaker 3: know that and that what I'm describing is is communicating

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Speaker 3: in a way that keeps emotional safety intact. It keeps

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Speaker 3: those bodies regulated, and it keeps us in a state

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Speaker 3: of a vulnerability, which you learned firsthand was bonding, you know,

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Speaker 3: And when you were able to soften and not defend

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Speaker 3: yourself and not get big and prickly and show your vulnerability,

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Speaker 3: you opened up your husband's caretaking system.

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Speaker 1: Oh right, that's why he reached towards me and I

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Speaker 1: realized he was a caretaker, which.

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Speaker 3: Is yes, and that's good the caretaking system in a

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Speaker 3: good way, you know, the positive version of that, right,

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Speaker 3: And that's what happens when couples start to get vulnerable,

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Speaker 3: is they start to open each other up to caregiving

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Speaker 3: and care receiving. And it's just so much easier to

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Speaker 3: work through all these you know, details of life that

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Speaker 3: we argue over when we feel emotionally safe. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I always like to tell my patients, I'd so much

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Speaker 3: rather see you you be motivated to you know, accommodate

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Speaker 3: each other through empathy instead of fear and anger. And

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Speaker 3: so when couples come to me to stress, one hundred

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Speaker 3: percent of the time they're motivating each other, they're trying

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Speaker 3: to motive each other with fear and anger as opposed

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Speaker 3: to empathy.

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Speaker 2: And is it true that every argument does not need

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Speaker 2: to have a winner?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely? I mean I yeah, I think I think the

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Speaker 3: best arguments don't have a winner. I mean, I mean

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Speaker 3: that might be obvious, but you know, to me, the

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Speaker 3: best arguments are the ones that that might start off

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Speaker 3: with two people seeing things differently, but you know, we

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Speaker 3: just kind of talk it through. And it doesn't necessarily

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Speaker 3: mean that you walk away with a changed mind, but

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Speaker 3: you walk away just kind of like from oh, you know,

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Speaker 3: we both kind of put down our our microphones and

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Speaker 3: our megaphones and just really kind of hurt each other

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Speaker 3: out and let's just kind of process on this. I mean,

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Speaker 3: have you noticed that in your life that like it

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Speaker 3: seems like, you know, when you go into an argument

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Speaker 3: with someone, but you both are in a really healthy,

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Speaker 3: flexible place, you come out of it like that wasn't

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Speaker 3: even an argument at all. That was kind of us

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Speaker 3: leaning in and trying to understand.

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Speaker 2: Each other, you know.

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Speaker 3: Feeling like that happens with my kids a lot.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, I say that feeling heard is very

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Speaker 1: different than feeling that you've convinced somebody right, Feeling heard

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Speaker 1: is them just going I saw a really fun TikTok

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Speaker 1: video one time and a girl said, you know what,

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Speaker 1: my husband and she was a young woman and she said,

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Speaker 1: you know what, my husband and I just learned that

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Speaker 1: every argument doesn't have to winner or a loser as

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Speaker 1: long as both people get to say their piece, and

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Speaker 1: once they've said their piece, and they feel heard.

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Speaker 2: Then you just say let's go get brunch.

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Speaker 3: Yes, that's exactly what I was kind of trying to say.

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Speaker 3: You just said it better than I did, though, it's like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: don't you feel hurt. It's like you're really You're like, wait,

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Speaker 3: what were we talking about that? We were we disagreed?

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Speaker 1: Wait what now, let's talk a little bit before we

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Speaker 1: go about repair. So sometimes we say things in the

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Speaker 1: heat of the moment that we regret, and sometimes those

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Speaker 1: arguments may injure the other party. What are some of

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Speaker 1: the ways that couples can make repair.

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Speaker 3: After well, you know, everybody needs to recognize, Hey, you

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Speaker 3: know this, this is what we did or what I did.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't it wasn't okay, I mean it hurt. It

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Speaker 3: hurt your heart, right, or we're not even a judgment,

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Speaker 3: We don't even have to put a judgment on it, right,

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Speaker 3: It's just that, look, I get that when this thing

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Speaker 3: came out of my mouth, you know, it impacted you

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Speaker 3: in a deep way. I think that a lot of

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Speaker 3: times what people miss with repair is they don't lean

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Speaker 3: into the other person. They stay in focused and inner

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Speaker 3: focused is anything that talks about you. I'm even I'm sorry,

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Speaker 3: can be can kind of be too inner focused. We

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Speaker 3: do need to apologize. But if someone's just sticking with

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Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said that, I'm such a

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Speaker 3: bad person, or I'll just never learn, or I'm really

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Speaker 3: trying to be different, that type of dialogue usually doesn't work.

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Speaker 3: It kind of can work, but it doesn't work nearly

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Speaker 3: as well as really stepping into the other person and saying,

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Speaker 3: help me understand how that impacted you, Help me understand

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Speaker 3: what feelings that brought up in you. Wow, that must

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Speaker 3: have really hurt. Tell me share with me.

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Speaker 2: How that hit you.

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Speaker 3: And that's when people really just kind of melt, you know.

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Speaker 3: That's when people really feel like repairs are so much

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Speaker 3: more full and rich and solid when they're really about

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Speaker 3: leaning into what the other person's experience was.

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Speaker 2: And then you get to have great makeup sex.

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Speaker 3: Just say it absolutely it really is, you know, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry. Yes, that's a good reason.

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Speaker 1: There you go.

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Speaker 2: You want get into your partner's feelings and you have

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Speaker 2: great makeup sex.

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Speaker 1: Julie Minano, licensed marriage and family therapist, Thank you so

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Speaker 1: much for being with us.

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Speaker 2: Please get her book.

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Speaker 1: It's called Secure Love, Create a relationship that lasts a lifetime.

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Speaker 1: So wonderful. I'm a psychology professor, so it's so great

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Speaker 1: to talk to a clinician who's in the trenches and

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Speaker 1: sees the real stuff happening every day. Thanks for being

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Speaker 1: with us, Julie.

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Speaker 3: You are so welcome. Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: And when we come back.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you're a person of a certain age, maybe you're

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Speaker 1: over fifty, over sixty, maybe you've been married for a

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Speaker 1: long time, maybe you're in a new relationship. Is there

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Speaker 1: a reason at your age to go to couple's therapy? Well,

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Speaker 1: the data says yes, let's talk about it when we

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Speaker 1: come back. You're listening to the Doctor Wendy Walls Show

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Speaker 1: on k AM six forty Live Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app.