1 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:25,600 Speaker 1: The following takes place between seven pm and eight pm. 2 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 2: Sorry, no time to waste our two underway, Let's get 3 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 2: to it. My next guest is a Saint xcrat join 4 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 2: me a while back to discuss a fantastic book. 5 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 3: He wrote about Pete Rose. 6 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 2: It's titled Charlie Hustle, The Rise and Fall of Pete 7 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:40,520 Speaker 2: Rose in the Last Glory Days of Baseball. My next 8 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 2: guest has a new book. It's about Larry Bird. It's 9 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:46,559 Speaker 2: called Heartland, A Forgotten Place, an Impossible Dream, and the 10 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 2: Miracle of Larry Bird. It is coming out Merch the 11 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 2: third I believe. For more on that, let's welcome in 12 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 2: the source of that book. That would be Keith O'Brien. 13 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 2: How are you, hey, Land's great to be back with you. 14 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 4: Thanks for having me right. 15 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 3: Catching up with you. 16 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 2: Let me start with the obvious question you did Pete Rose, 17 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 2: What led you to writing a book about Larry Bird? 18 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 5: Well, like you mentioned, I'm a Saint X grad born 19 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 5: and raised in Cincinnati, a Midwesterner, you know through and through, 20 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 5: and you know during Charlie Hustle, I was back in 21 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 5: the Midwest all the time. I really felt like I 22 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 5: had come home to my roots. And as I came 23 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 5: out of that project, I was looking around, you know, 24 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 5: for other stories in the Midwest that we sort of overlooked, 25 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:34,399 Speaker 5: and I, you know, turn my attention to this one. 26 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:38,120 Speaker 5: You know, Heartland is not you know, a soups and 27 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 5: nuts Larry Bird biography. That was not what I wanted 28 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 5: to do. It is really an origin story of Larry 29 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 5: Bird's rise in rural Indiana in the nineteen seventies. And 30 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 5: it's really a portrait of this miracle nineteen seventy nine 31 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 5: Indiana State team and how that miracle really still endures today. 32 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 2: And keep for those who don't know, Frenchlake, Indiana is 33 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 2: off the radar, off the beaten path. Larry was kind 34 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 2: of that way himself back in his high school days, 35 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 2: wasn't he. 36 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, people would think, you know, Larry Bird 37 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 5: was a massive star in high school. That just wasn't true. 38 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 5: You know, for the first three years he was at 39 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 5: Springs Valley High School and French Lake, he wasn't even 40 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 5: the best player on his own team. 41 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 4: You know. It wasn't until his senior. 42 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 5: Year and and a stunning growth spurts that changes that 43 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 5: he begins to get attention from Midwestern recruiters mostly. I've 44 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 5: seen some of these recruitment letters lance they came, I 45 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 5: regret to inform local fans from University of Cincinnati, from Miami, 46 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 5: of Ohio, Kentucky. 47 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:51,359 Speaker 4: Courted him briefly Louisville. 48 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 5: You know, So is this alternative reality where Larry Bird 49 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:57,799 Speaker 5: could have been a bear cat if you believe that. 50 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 5: But you know, even in that moment where he's getting 51 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 5: recruited by some pretty decent Midwestern basketball schools, he's not 52 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 5: considered a top fifteen player in the state of Indiana. 53 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:10,959 Speaker 4: He's not. 54 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 3: Ope, we may have we may have lost Keith. It 55 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 3: sounds like we have. 56 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 5: Unfortunately, it's a sunning thing to think about, but it's true. 57 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, I wonder he and for those who I think 58 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:27,519 Speaker 2: most probably know he originally enrolled at IU, he was 59 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 2: gonna play for Bob Knight, didn't like it, went back home, 60 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 2: I mean, Keith. I guess there's a chance that he 61 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 2: could have gone back home and just kind of faded 62 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 2: away and nothing ever became of him, isn't there? 63 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 5: I mean, based on my reporting, it's more than a chance. 64 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 4: You know. 65 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 5: When Bird leaves Indiana after about three weeks in September 66 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 5: nineteen seventy four, and I pinpointed the exact day he 67 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 5: hitchhikes home on Friday, September thirteenth, nineteen seventy four. You know, 68 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 5: he he very nearly does disappear that winter. You know, 69 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 5: he briefly plays for a vocational school, not a JUCO school, 70 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 5: not a community college. He plays for a vocational school 71 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 5: with about two hundred students. He then dropped out from there, 72 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 5: and by February nineteen seventy five, Larry Bird is playing 73 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 5: glorified pick up men's basketball and what was known as 74 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 5: the Industrial League in rural Indiana. These were teams that 75 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 5: were sponsored by liquor stores, by bars, by construction companies. 76 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:37,160 Speaker 5: Larry is playing with guys who have day jobs and 77 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 5: wives and children and mortgages. He is nearly he is 78 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 5: nearly gone. And were it not for a man named 79 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 5: Bill Hodges, Larry might have disappeared forever. 80 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 2: And I think, and I will always remember this as 81 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 2: a I would have been twelve eleven, twelve years old 82 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 2: coming home, and I always look forward to the Sports Illustrated 83 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 2: trying to guess who was on the cover. And I'll 84 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:02,719 Speaker 2: never forget seeing Larry Bird on the cover with two 85 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 2: cheerleaders on his side, and it was like the Secret 86 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 2: of college basketball, Larry Bird in the Indiana State Sycamores. 87 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:12,280 Speaker 2: I mean, it's hard to believe thinking back where that 88 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 2: story went to that point leading into the showdown with 89 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 2: Magic and Michigan State eventually. 90 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 5: Yeah, well that cover you're talking about Lance's you know, 91 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 5: November nineteen seventy seven. You know, Bill Hodges has recruited 92 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 5: Larry to come to Indiana State, you know, a small 93 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:35,280 Speaker 5: school with a basketball program that was teetering on the 94 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 5: edge of oblivion. And you know, within a year and 95 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:41,919 Speaker 5: a half, you know, Larry Bird has proven that he 96 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 5: is a real star, not just a good player on 97 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:48,559 Speaker 5: a small team, but a real star. And that's why, 98 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 5: you know, Sports Illustrated takes a chance and they put 99 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:53,840 Speaker 5: him on that cover in November nineteen seventy seven. And 100 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 5: I'm sure many folks out there have seen that cover. 101 00:05:56,640 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 5: It is iconic even fifty years later. I interview you'd 102 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 5: almost everyone who. 103 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 4: Was part of that photo shoot. 104 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:08,039 Speaker 5: And what's fascinating is, you know, Bird doesn't want to 105 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 5: be there that day, no idea why he's even there. 106 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 5: And the photographer, a man named Lane Stewart actually struggles 107 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 5: to get a photo that will work for the cover, 108 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:25,279 Speaker 5: that iconic image of the cheerleaders whispering. That was not 109 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 5: the original plan. It was something that Lane Stewart used 110 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:31,720 Speaker 5: after he couldn't get what he wanted from the plan 111 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 5: that he had. But it is really a before and after. 112 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 4: Moment for Larry Bird. 113 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 5: I would argue, you know, again, based on my reporting, 114 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 5: you know, after that Sports Illustrated cover in November nineteen 115 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 5: seventy seven, Larry Bird will never again have an anonymous 116 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 5: day in his life. 117 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 4: Much to his chagrin. 118 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:56,039 Speaker 2: Keith Larry Bird rd Auerbach knew what he had and 119 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:58,919 Speaker 2: Bird drafted him a year early. Take me through the decision. 120 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 2: Why didn't Larry Why did Larry stick with Indiana State 121 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 2: through that? 122 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:08,839 Speaker 5: You know, Larry was nothing if not a man of 123 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 5: his word. It was true then, it's true now. And 124 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 5: he had made a promise to his mother that he 125 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 5: was going to graduate. And so even when we're at 126 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 5: red Erbach drafts him in June nineteen seventy eight with 127 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 5: the sixth pick in the draft. By the way, five 128 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 5: teams pass on Larry Bird. You know, Larry returns to 129 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 5: school and you know, Red Arbach said something in this 130 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 5: moment that I think is just incredible. I think this 131 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 5: is a lesson for sports, a lesson for business, a 132 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 5: lesson for life. And I'm paraphrasing here. You know, Arbach 133 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 5: said that a year goes by faster than one thinks, 134 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 5: and a year from now people are going to kick themselves. 135 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 4: They didn't take a chance on Larry Bird. 136 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 5: And you know ar Bach is right, you know, there 137 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 5: was he was not a given star, a proven commodity. 138 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 5: In June nineteen seventy eight, and entering that final year, 139 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 5: no one projected anything great out of Indiana State. 140 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 4: But Larry Bird and. 141 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 5: This scrappy underdog team, they defy all the odds, and 142 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 5: by February nineteen seventy nine, everybody knows that the five 143 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 5: teams who passed on Larry Bird have. 144 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 4: Made a terrible mistake. 145 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 2: Keith does He's kind of hard to find these days. 146 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 2: Does anybody know where he is or what he's doing 147 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 2: these days? 148 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 5: You know, Larry Bird wanted to disappear from the limelight 149 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 5: and the spotlight in the late nineteen seventies when he 150 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 5: was becoming a start Indiana States. 151 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 4: And you know, fifty. 152 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:41,319 Speaker 5: Years later he seems to have finally pulled off that trick. 153 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 5: You know, he does spend his winters down south, and 154 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 5: he does return every summer to Indiana where he has 155 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 5: a ranch on a big piece of land. You know, 156 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,960 Speaker 5: And again, based on the people I talked to, some 157 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:59,199 Speaker 5: of the people closest to Larry V's days, when Larry 158 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 5: arrived at that every May, he scarcely leaves the property. 159 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 5: You know, Larry Bird wanted to disappear fifty years ago, 160 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 5: and he's finally pulled it off. 161 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 2: Man, oh man, I get chills just as you say that. 162 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 2: I'm not all the way through it, but I love 163 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 2: it to this point. You've got a couple of book 164 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:21,319 Speaker 2: signings coming up. Tell listeners about the two signings around 165 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 2: these parts coming up. 166 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 5: Well, right, yeah, So Heartland comes out on Tuesday. You 167 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 5: can get it anywhere you buy your books. And I 168 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:32,719 Speaker 5: do have two events in Cincinnati next week. I'll be 169 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 5: at the Campbell County Public Library on Friday, March sixth, 170 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:38,839 Speaker 5: at seven o'clock, and I'll be at Joseph Beth and 171 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:41,079 Speaker 5: Rookwood on Saturday at five o'clock. 172 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 3: Hey, it's a wonderful read. 173 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 2: I'm so happy for you and I really enjoyed the 174 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:49,199 Speaker 2: Peat book and I'm enjoying this book. Congratulations on it, 175 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 2: and I wish you the best of luck with it 176 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 2: and always good catching up. 177 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 4: Thanks so much, Lynn. Great to be with you again. 178 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 3: Man. All right, take care, Keith, have a great night. 179 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 2: There you there you go, Heartland, a forgotten place and 180 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 2: impossible dream in the miracle of Larry Bird.