1
00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:06,080
Speaker 1: It's nice with Dan Ray on Building Easy Boston's News Radio.

2
00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:09,840
Speaker 2: Welcome back to night's side, Bradley Jay for Dan. Tonight,

3
00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:11,799
Speaker 2: we're going to talk about something which is probably going

4
00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:16,080
Speaker 2: to generate a lot of controversy. What do you think

5
00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:20,400
Speaker 2: about dynamic pricing when it comes to tolling in the

6
00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:24,239
Speaker 2: Boston area. In other words, you might call it surge pricing.

7
00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:26,960
Speaker 2: Another way to put it would be a b are

8
00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:30,600
Speaker 2: you if you come in off peak hours. It's something

9
00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:35,839
Speaker 2: to think about. I mean, traffic is crippling our city

10
00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:38,680
Speaker 2: and something needs to be done with us. Tonight we

11
00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:41,479
Speaker 2: have Chris Dempsey, former Assistant Secretary of Transportation and a

12
00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:44,360
Speaker 2: partner with urban planning firm spec Dempsey.

13
00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:47,879
Speaker 3: Welcome, Bradley. It's great to be on with you and

14
00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:51,360
Speaker 3: your listeners, and happy New Year again again. Always good

15
00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:51,800
Speaker 3: to be back.

16
00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:54,720
Speaker 2: We used to talk quite a bit. Now, I guess

17
00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:57,400
Speaker 2: we should first tell me about your firm and what

18
00:00:57,440 --> 00:00:59,640
Speaker 2: you do. I'm curious to hear a little bit more

19
00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:00,760
Speaker 2: about you and your firm.

20
00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,160
Speaker 3: So we're an urban planning firm. We're based in Brookline,

21
00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:07,480
Speaker 3: and we work with cities and towns and states and

22
00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:11,319
Speaker 3: with private developers all the way around the world, and

23
00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:14,880
Speaker 3: as close to home as Coolidge Corner, where we're helping

24
00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:17,600
Speaker 3: the town of Brookline redesign the center Street parking lots,

25
00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:21,120
Speaker 3: and as far away at the moment as the island

26
00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:24,440
Speaker 3: of Maui in Hawaii, where we are helping the town

27
00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:27,839
Speaker 3: of Lahaina rebuild from those terrible wildfires that they had

28
00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:31,080
Speaker 3: two years ago. That was the most devastating wildfire in

29
00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:33,360
Speaker 3: the last century in the US. It was one of

30
00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:36,280
Speaker 3: the most walkable places in all of Hawaii, and as

31
00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:38,600
Speaker 3: they rebuild, they want to make sure it's walkable again,

32
00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:39,920
Speaker 3: and so we're helping them do that.

33
00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:41,960
Speaker 2: How do people find you? How do people in Maui

34
00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:42,440
Speaker 2: find you?

35
00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:45,759
Speaker 3: Well, my partner is named Jeff Speck, and he wrote

36
00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:49,400
Speaker 3: a book called Walkable City, which is the best selling

37
00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:51,560
Speaker 3: urban planning book written this century.

38
00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:52,000
Speaker 2: Wow.

39
00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:54,240
Speaker 3: So it's been read by people around the world. Lots

40
00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:56,560
Speaker 3: of people even say to us that they became urban

41
00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:58,720
Speaker 3: planners because they read this book when they were in

42
00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:00,960
Speaker 3: high school or college and it put them on that path.

43
00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:05,120
Speaker 3: And so folks know him, they know of the work

44
00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:08,079
Speaker 3: that he does, and we've created this firm together and

45
00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:10,600
Speaker 3: we are really glad to be serving people and right

46
00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,760
Speaker 3: now we're active in something like eight or ten different states.

47
00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:17,680
Speaker 2: Well, I'm a big big time pedestrians, as are you.

48
00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:21,320
Speaker 2: And by the way, I feel pedestrians are underseas and

49
00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:23,520
Speaker 2: so maybe I should have him on as a guest.

50
00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:27,600
Speaker 2: Let's talk about dynamic congestion tol pricing, one way to

51
00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:29,359
Speaker 2: phrase it. What is it?

52
00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,920
Speaker 3: So this is a policy that is very foreign to

53
00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:37,960
Speaker 3: people in Massachusetts. And let's be very honest here, this

54
00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:41,040
Speaker 3: is an unpopular policy. When you look at the polling,

55
00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,480
Speaker 3: maybe fifteen or twenty percent of people support it and

56
00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:48,120
Speaker 3: sixty or seventy percent of people oppose it. And my

57
00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:50,880
Speaker 3: goal tonight as we talk for the next hour or so,

58
00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:54,560
Speaker 3: is to persuade people that this might actually be a

59
00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:57,440
Speaker 3: good idea to try to fix the traffic problem that

60
00:02:57,480 --> 00:02:59,400
Speaker 3: we have and to improve our public transit at the

61
00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,799
Speaker 3: same time. But even if I can't persuade your listeners

62
00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:04,960
Speaker 3: that that's the right idea, I hope that I can

63
00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:07,480
Speaker 3: at least get them open to the idea that we

64
00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:11,200
Speaker 3: should try this out in a limited pilot form on

65
00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:14,080
Speaker 3: one or two roads, just to see if it works

66
00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:16,720
Speaker 3: here or not. And if it doesn't work, they can

67
00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:19,280
Speaker 3: run me out of town. I'll leave the state if

68
00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:22,000
Speaker 3: it doesn't work. But I think it's going to work

69
00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:25,760
Speaker 3: here is being recorded, that's all right. I think it's

70
00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:28,520
Speaker 3: going to work here because it's worked everywhere else that

71
00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:29,480
Speaker 3: it's been put in place.

72
00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,680
Speaker 2: So some refer to it as surge pricing and the

73
00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:35,400
Speaker 2: hackles on most people's that go up when your here, sir,

74
00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:40,280
Speaker 2: I will admit surge pricing, like get a ride share,

75
00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:45,040
Speaker 2: surge pricing bums me out. And they were talking about

76
00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:49,800
Speaker 2: dynamic pricing and supermarkets as well, sure, which I don't.

77
00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:53,760
Speaker 2: I don't understand how the algorithms would work, why they

78
00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:57,200
Speaker 2: would raise or lower the price. Is in a supermarket

79
00:03:57,240 --> 00:03:58,000
Speaker 2: you probably.

80
00:03:57,680 --> 00:03:59,360
Speaker 3: Do well, I don't. I don't know less. I don't

81
00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:01,560
Speaker 3: know as much about that. But let's start with an

82
00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:05,560
Speaker 3: example that I think everybody that's listening knows. Think about

83
00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:09,560
Speaker 3: matinee pricing at a movie theater. So maybe a movie

84
00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:12,440
Speaker 3: theater ticket is fifteen bucks. Now I don't go to

85
00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:14,440
Speaker 3: the movies that much. I think fifteen is maybe on

86
00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:15,520
Speaker 3: the high end, but it's around that.

87
00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:17,080
Speaker 2: I think it's like twenty bucks.

88
00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:20,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, so yeah, you're right. So let's say it's

89
00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:23,640
Speaker 3: let's say it's fifteen as a normal price, and then

90
00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:26,839
Speaker 3: matinee pricing, you get maybe a three or four dollars discount,

91
00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:29,599
Speaker 3: so you're paying, you know, twelve or thirteen bucks instead

92
00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,600
Speaker 3: of fifteen or sixteen bucks. That's a very common thing.

93
00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:35,160
Speaker 3: We've been doing that for like centuries, since we had

94
00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:37,280
Speaker 3: since we had Vaudeville theater, there were matinees.

95
00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:37,479
Speaker 1: Right.

96
00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:41,320
Speaker 3: Here's another example, an early bird special at a restaurant,

97
00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:44,000
Speaker 3: or if you come in to eat dinner at four

98
00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:46,200
Speaker 3: thirty or five. By the way, I love an early dinner,

99
00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:47,960
Speaker 3: not just because it's cheaper, but I just like eating

100
00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:50,640
Speaker 3: early anyway. But you come in for dinner at four

101
00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,760
Speaker 3: thirty or five, maybe you get fifteen percent off your meal,

102
00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:56,279
Speaker 3: or maybe you get a discount on your appetizers to

103
00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:58,760
Speaker 3: fill that space early. If you come in at seven,

104
00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:01,560
Speaker 3: which is the highest demand time, you pay the regular prices.

105
00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:05,000
Speaker 3: And so what I'm suggesting that we do, or at

106
00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:07,840
Speaker 3: least try out with our roads in Massachusetts, is to

107
00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:11,920
Speaker 3: use that same example of matine pricing or an early

108
00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:15,840
Speaker 3: bird special, where your toll is cheaper for the less

109
00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:20,440
Speaker 3: demanded times, and it's normal or more expensive relative to

110
00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:23,880
Speaker 3: the discount, but more expensive or the standard price for

111
00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:26,680
Speaker 3: the high demand times. And all we're trying to do

112
00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:29,719
Speaker 3: there is for the people that do have the ability

113
00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:32,360
Speaker 3: to shift their trip in some way, then they can

114
00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:34,719
Speaker 3: save a buck or two on their toll by doing that.

115
00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:37,360
Speaker 3: And the people that don't have the ability to shift,

116
00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:39,480
Speaker 3: you think, well, wait a minute, aren't we screwing them

117
00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:41,520
Speaker 3: over because they don't have that chance to say they

118
00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:45,000
Speaker 3: get time, they get their time back. Because if you

119
00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:47,560
Speaker 3: take people off the road when it's most busy, the

120
00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:50,400
Speaker 3: people that have to be driving at that time, that

121
00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:52,479
Speaker 3: have no other choice but to be driving at that time,

122
00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:54,200
Speaker 3: you want to give them the fastest trip you can.

123
00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,760
Speaker 3: And I feel it's an obligation that our state try

124
00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:01,039
Speaker 3: this policy out to try to get things working better

125
00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:02,960
Speaker 3: for the people that need the roads to work for them.

126
00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:06,800
Speaker 2: Well, there are already examples in transportation of this sort

127
00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:09,840
Speaker 2: of thing. For example, the acell it to New York.

128
00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,839
Speaker 2: If you're willing to get up at zero o'clock in

129
00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:16,839
Speaker 2: the morning, it's affordable. Otherwise it's crazy expensive. So it's

130
00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:20,400
Speaker 2: not not that different. But of course there is the

131
00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:23,640
Speaker 2: word surge pricing. So folks, now is your chance. Let's

132
00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,520
Speaker 2: pretend just for the theater of it. This is where

133
00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:29,599
Speaker 2: we're deciding right now tonight, it's getting decided. If you

134
00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:33,000
Speaker 2: don't call in, what's going to do it. It's up

135
00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:34,920
Speaker 2: to you to It's up to you to call in.

136
00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:38,000
Speaker 2: If we don't hear from you, we assume you're down

137
00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:43,080
Speaker 2: with this congestion pricing, and if you're not a big

138
00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:48,320
Speaker 2: fan of it, we'd like to know and maybe know why.

139
00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:50,600
Speaker 2: After the break we can address this. Some people call

140
00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,560
Speaker 2: it a regressive tax, which is a tax that is

141
00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:57,480
Speaker 2: deemed to be unfair because it's a finite amount where

142
00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:01,400
Speaker 2: it affects rich people and poor people equally where it shouldn't.

143
00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:04,360
Speaker 2: So that's one of the beefs with it, and there

144
00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:07,320
Speaker 2: are others. And if perhaps you don't like it, let

145
00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:10,200
Speaker 2: us know the number six one, seven, two, five, four,

146
00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:12,040
Speaker 2: ten thirty. If I don't hear from you, I'm going

147
00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:14,600
Speaker 2: to assume that you're one hundred percent go on this

148
00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,080
Speaker 2: and we're going to start it up as soon as possible.

149
00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:19,679
Speaker 2: This is just, of course, just for the theater of it.

150
00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:22,840
Speaker 2: Six months, seven, two, five, four, ten thirty WBZ.

151
00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:29,840
Speaker 1: Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Boston's news radio.

152
00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:33,280
Speaker 2: We continue with Chris Dempsey farm our assistant Secretary of

153
00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:36,920
Speaker 2: Transportation here in the state here and a partner in

154
00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:39,280
Speaker 2: the urban planning firm Speck at Dimsey. And we're talking

155
00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:44,800
Speaker 2: about dynamic congestion toll pricing. Now, why do we need it?

156
00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:47,400
Speaker 2: You know, what? How bad are things and what are

157
00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:52,040
Speaker 2: the trickle down the detriments that are the result of

158
00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:56,120
Speaker 2: what's going on with the traffic situation. Who gets hurt

159
00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:56,960
Speaker 2: and how far down?

160
00:07:57,680 --> 00:07:59,840
Speaker 3: So I don't think I need to tell your listeners

161
00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,680
Speaker 3: that traffic in Greater Boston is really bad. It's been

162
00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:05,920
Speaker 3: really bad for a while. But the data backs this up.

163
00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:09,840
Speaker 3: There's a firm called Inricks which tracks this data around

164
00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:12,760
Speaker 3: the entire world. They use anonymous cell phone pinging off

165
00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:15,400
Speaker 3: towers to be able to estimate how far, how far,

166
00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,440
Speaker 3: and how fast people are traveling. And they estimate that

167
00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,560
Speaker 3: Boston is the fifth worst in the entire country. In

168
00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,120
Speaker 3: prior years they have ranked us number one, the most

169
00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:26,880
Speaker 3: congested region in the entire country. We're at five right

170
00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:30,600
Speaker 3: now and twelfth worst in the entire world.

171
00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:36,520
Speaker 2: The Luise, Mumbai and Singapore and and all those nightmares

172
00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:38,880
Speaker 2: looking traffic, correct, you.

173
00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:44,360
Speaker 3: See correct, The average driver in Greater Boston wastes eighty

174
00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:49,880
Speaker 3: three hours per year just sitting in congestion. That's the

175
00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:54,640
Speaker 3: equivalent of watching The Lord of the Rings trilogy seven times.

176
00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:57,679
Speaker 3: That's how long you're seeing in traffic. I think give

177
00:08:57,720 --> 00:08:59,439
Speaker 3: credit to Boston dot com for that one.

178
00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:00,720
Speaker 2: Okay, up that fact.

179
00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:04,959
Speaker 3: And the average speed when you're stuck in traffic heading

180
00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:07,800
Speaker 3: into Greater Boston is about ten miles per hour. So

181
00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:11,000
Speaker 3: that's really not that much faster than walking, and it's

182
00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:13,600
Speaker 3: slower than biking. That's how fast we're going, and we're

183
00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:15,319
Speaker 3: all doing it in these big cars, taking up a

184
00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:17,640
Speaker 3: lot of space and slowing down everything. Now, let's talk

185
00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:20,120
Speaker 3: about the cost of that, right it's the cost of

186
00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:23,079
Speaker 3: people's lost time is bad enough, and that alone is

187
00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:25,680
Speaker 3: a reason why we should be investigating this policy to

188
00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:28,400
Speaker 3: help fix it. But think about the impact that this

189
00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:30,920
Speaker 3: has on the cost of everything. And we know we're

190
00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:32,920
Speaker 3: in a time of inflation and people are being hurt

191
00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:36,960
Speaker 3: by costs. So most truck driving firms, when you talk

192
00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:39,280
Speaker 3: to the owners of truck driving firms, they'll tell you

193
00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,720
Speaker 3: that the cost of running a truck for about an

194
00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,880
Speaker 3: hour is about one hundred and twenty to one hundred

195
00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:46,640
Speaker 3: and thirty dollars.

196
00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:47,400
Speaker 2: I didn't know that.

197
00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:50,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, you add in the cost of paying the driver,

198
00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:53,960
Speaker 3: the fuel, the cost of maintaining the truck, the insurance

199
00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:55,640
Speaker 3: they have to pay. All those things add up to

200
00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:59,280
Speaker 3: about one hundred and twenty dollars an hour, and they

201
00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:02,160
Speaker 3: have to pass those costs on, right, So when you

202
00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,160
Speaker 3: go to the grocery store, some portion of the cost

203
00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:07,920
Speaker 3: you are paying at the grocery store is was covered

204
00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:11,200
Speaker 3: by or paid to the firm that transported all of

205
00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:13,680
Speaker 3: those goods there. And by estimates that I've done in

206
00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:17,000
Speaker 3: prior years, it's adding something like three or four percent

207
00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:20,200
Speaker 3: of the cost of your groceries just the transportation costs alone.

208
00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,079
Speaker 3: You know, when you buy a polar Seltzer at stopping

209
00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:26,840
Speaker 3: shop in you know, in Medford that came from Worcester,

210
00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:29,760
Speaker 3: it's it's sat in traffic on the turnpike the whole

211
00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:32,600
Speaker 3: way there at one hundred and twenty five bucks an hour,

212
00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,280
Speaker 3: little pennies getting adding to every can. Those add up

213
00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:39,200
Speaker 3: over time. So that's just one example of how we

214
00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:42,200
Speaker 3: are all paying for the congestion, even if we don't

215
00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:44,440
Speaker 3: sit in that congestion ourselves, and especially if we do

216
00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:47,760
Speaker 3: sit in that congestion. I think all of this is

217
00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:51,000
Speaker 3: a compelling case for doing something different, doing something that

218
00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:54,760
Speaker 3: we haven't done before. And I'm all for other policies,

219
00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:56,680
Speaker 3: like we have to invest more in the NBTA, we

220
00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:59,400
Speaker 3: have to get people more options to avoid that congestion

221
00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:03,959
Speaker 3: and just to get around. I think it's worth looking

222
00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:06,200
Speaker 3: at other policies, and I hope people will call in

223
00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:08,880
Speaker 3: and suggest to other ideas. But the one that has

224
00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:13,040
Speaker 3: been proven to work in place after place and including

225
00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:16,760
Speaker 3: you know, old cities like Boston. Now it's now working

226
00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:19,199
Speaker 3: in New York, it's working in London, cities that are

227
00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:22,280
Speaker 3: just as old or older than Boston. Is this policy

228
00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,720
Speaker 3: of congestion pricing. And even though it's unpopular, I think

229
00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:28,920
Speaker 3: traffic is also really unpopular, and it's something that we

230
00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,240
Speaker 3: deserve to our residents deserve to have it fixed, and

231
00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:34,160
Speaker 3: we need to try out policies to do that.

232
00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:39,439
Speaker 2: Okay, So congestion pricing, surge pricing, or matine pricing, call

233
00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,640
Speaker 2: it with you. Well, what do you think again? When

234
00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:48,559
Speaker 2: I hear surge pricing regarding rideshare, I automatically it's a

235
00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:50,240
Speaker 2: bad feeling for me. Is it a bad feeling for

236
00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:54,720
Speaker 2: you maybe we're wrong, show us how we're wrong. It's Billy,

237
00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:57,200
Speaker 2: I believe in Burlington? Is that? Billy? Are you there?

238
00:11:58,320 --> 00:11:58,600
Speaker 1: Hello?

239
00:11:58,800 --> 00:11:59,320
Speaker 4: Can you hear me?

240
00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:01,760
Speaker 2: Yes? I can now, yes, Okay.

241
00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:04,040
Speaker 4: Hi guys. Sorry, I put myself on me while he

242
00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:08,680
Speaker 4: was talking. So yes, I understand what he's saying. And

243
00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:11,679
Speaker 4: you know, charging I know New York started doing it,

244
00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:14,520
Speaker 4: and you know we're thanking about doing that. But can

245
00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:17,880
Speaker 4: I ask him what does he think the major problem

246
00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:19,480
Speaker 4: is with the traffic in Boston.

247
00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:21,600
Speaker 2: You can talk right to him. He can hear you,

248
00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:25,160
Speaker 2: he can hear here. You ask the question. You can say, hey, Chris, what.

249
00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:29,120
Speaker 4: Is Hey Chris? What is your opinion is the main

250
00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:31,760
Speaker 4: reason why traffic have gotten so bad, even after the

251
00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,040
Speaker 4: Big Big when they sold us on that it wasn't

252
00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:34,280
Speaker 4: going to.

253
00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:36,600
Speaker 3: Be that bad. Well, Billy, it's a great question, and

254
00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:39,280
Speaker 3: I really appreciate you calling in to have this conversation.

255
00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:41,400
Speaker 3: I think it's important for all of us to be

256
00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:43,800
Speaker 3: talking about how bad traffic is and how we can

257
00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:46,880
Speaker 3: fix it. I'm not sure that I would name, you know,

258
00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:52,120
Speaker 3: one reason why traffic is bad. People will often say, well,

259
00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:54,760
Speaker 3: it's because we have, you know, a messed up street network,

260
00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:57,880
Speaker 3: and you can blame the pilgrims for the cow paths

261
00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:00,920
Speaker 3: and not straight roads. Right. People will say that, but

262
00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:05,040
Speaker 3: I've heard that, you know, people will say, well, it's

263
00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:07,760
Speaker 3: because our MBTA system doesn't work that well, and if

264
00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:09,960
Speaker 3: that were just working better, then the traffic would go away.

265
00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:13,280
Speaker 3: I will tell you that I'm sort of unsatisfied by

266
00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:16,040
Speaker 3: those answers, because I think they're part of the problem,

267
00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:18,560
Speaker 3: but not the whole problem. When I look at some

268
00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:20,679
Speaker 3: of the data here, I see, for example, so I'm

269
00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:24,920
Speaker 3: in my early forties when I was born, compared to today,

270
00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:29,040
Speaker 3: people are driving per capita. People are driving fifty percent

271
00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:31,960
Speaker 3: more than they were forty years ago. So there's a

272
00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:33,800
Speaker 3: lot more cars on the road and a lot more

273
00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:37,559
Speaker 3: people driving on a daily basis, and so we can

274
00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:40,319
Speaker 3: never build enough roads to keep up with that demand. Right.

275
00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:42,280
Speaker 3: We have to start looking at using the roads that

276
00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:44,520
Speaker 3: we have a little bit more efficiently, and I think

277
00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:46,600
Speaker 3: this is one way to do that. But I'm interested

278
00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:47,880
Speaker 3: in your thoughts. What do you think are some of

279
00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:49,480
Speaker 3: the causes and how do you think we could solve it?

280
00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:53,200
Speaker 4: All? Right, So I'm glad you asked. I've been driving

281
00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:56,480
Speaker 4: up here since I turned twenty years old, and I

282
00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,439
Speaker 4: love to drive. I go to the airport a lot,

283
00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:01,440
Speaker 4: I go into ball and now I go all over.

284
00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:04,560
Speaker 4: I've worked for four different companies and they're all about driving.

285
00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:07,800
Speaker 4: My biggest thing is I think it does have a

286
00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:10,000
Speaker 4: lot to play with the MBT, because why would I

287
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,360
Speaker 4: want to go catch your train or bus that's constantly

288
00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:14,439
Speaker 4: breaking down. They have fixed a little bit of that,

289
00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:17,960
Speaker 4: but it's not new as older. I think the main

290
00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,160
Speaker 4: reason is because nobody car pools, so you got more

291
00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,320
Speaker 4: cars on the road independently than people a car pooling.

292
00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:27,560
Speaker 4: They had like some type of a monorail or something,

293
00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:29,920
Speaker 4: you know, that would help because if you're up on

294
00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:33,480
Speaker 4: ninety three, you know, and you're coming into Boston. They

295
00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:36,600
Speaker 4: used to have the jersey barriers there where you couldn't

296
00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,800
Speaker 4: get into, you know, the car pool lane. But people

297
00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:43,080
Speaker 4: abused that Now like crazy. They dove across those white lines.

298
00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,160
Speaker 4: They get over, and the cops are never setting down there.

299
00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:48,560
Speaker 4: Every once in a while they'll be setting down there,

300
00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:51,120
Speaker 4: you know, to pull people over who's you know, more

301
00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,240
Speaker 4: than not one person in the cock more. I forgot

302
00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:57,240
Speaker 4: how and I think that is the biggest problem. So

303
00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:00,720
Speaker 4: if they had, you know, more people that copoo and

304
00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,400
Speaker 4: then sentence the coppo that go back to that because

305
00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:06,240
Speaker 4: before COVID, yes, my traffic was bad, but it wasn't

306
00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:09,120
Speaker 4: as bad as it's gotten out since after COVID, because

307
00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:11,280
Speaker 4: nobody wants to ride in the car to get COVID

308
00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:14,280
Speaker 4: and you know, nobody wants to copple. That's what I see,

309
00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:16,840
Speaker 4: and I drive it every day. I just came back

310
00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:18,040
Speaker 4: from Logan as we speak.

311
00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:19,880
Speaker 2: I like that, Well, you know, you.

312
00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:22,400
Speaker 3: Know your stuff, and I love hearing from someone like

313
00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:24,400
Speaker 3: you that has done this as a living and so

314
00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:26,560
Speaker 3: you've you've seen it day in and day out. You're

315
00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,360
Speaker 3: you're a road warrior out there, and I really respect that.

316
00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:31,560
Speaker 3: And I'm not only do I respect it, but I'm

317
00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:34,040
Speaker 3: just so glad that you're willing to call in and

318
00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:35,800
Speaker 3: just talk about it, because I think again, we need

319
00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:37,400
Speaker 3: to be talking about it more and not just trying

320
00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:41,480
Speaker 3: to sweep this problem under the rug. So I would

321
00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:44,080
Speaker 3: love to see more carpooling. And I would suggest to

322
00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:47,080
Speaker 3: you that this idea that I have that you have

323
00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:50,240
Speaker 3: some toll to come into the city at peak times,

324
00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:53,120
Speaker 3: is itself a little bit of an incentive to carpool.

325
00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:55,320
Speaker 3: More so, it's it's kind of different in that way.

326
00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:58,240
Speaker 3: We've talked about a movie theater, right, but this is

327
00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:00,240
Speaker 3: actually very different from a movie theater because image, if

328
00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:02,280
Speaker 3: the movie theater said to you, if you bring a

329
00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:04,200
Speaker 3: friend to the movie theater, we're not going to charge

330
00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:06,400
Speaker 3: you any for an extra ticket. Get you cut your

331
00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:09,160
Speaker 3: cost in half, that's effectively what you do here. Let's

332
00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:12,040
Speaker 3: say it was six dollars to drive in at rush

333
00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:14,400
Speaker 3: hour to Boston, but if you put three people in

334
00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:16,040
Speaker 3: the car, then it's only two bucks each, and that

335
00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:18,840
Speaker 3: seems like a real bargain. Now, again, that's not for everybody.

336
00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:21,000
Speaker 3: There are people that are saying, I don't want a

337
00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,280
Speaker 3: carpool with my coworkers. I already get enough of them

338
00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:25,520
Speaker 3: nine to five, right, But for the people that are

339
00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:27,880
Speaker 3: willing to do it, if they, if they, if we

340
00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,040
Speaker 3: can nudge them in that direction, and that takes two

341
00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:32,280
Speaker 3: cars off the road, then that's more space on the

342
00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:33,720
Speaker 3: road for the people that don't want a carpool.

343
00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:34,360
Speaker 2: And I think that's.

344
00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:37,760
Speaker 4: Okay, right, and it just there. I don't want to,

345
00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,560
Speaker 4: you know, hold out the people up, but just charging

346
00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:43,080
Speaker 4: people more, you know, like that Tod stuff. Boston is

347
00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:46,560
Speaker 4: a thriving city and people are getting paid very well here,

348
00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:49,840
Speaker 4: so charging the more money isn't gonna stop them. Yeah,

349
00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:51,960
Speaker 4: six bucks, I.

350
00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,800
Speaker 2: Appreciate that, thank you very much. Real cock to have.

351
00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:57,160
Speaker 2: This is twenty bucks now, So in.

352
00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,400
Speaker 3: The commuter you know, the commuterill coming in from the

353
00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:02,480
Speaker 3: same distance as like a Burlington is going to be

354
00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,359
Speaker 3: eight or ten bucks. So it's still be way cheaper

355
00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:07,480
Speaker 3: to drive in than to take the train, which, when

356
00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:09,520
Speaker 3: you think about it, that's the opposite of the incentives

357
00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:11,960
Speaker 3: that we think we should want as a community. Right

358
00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:13,960
Speaker 3: in general, we want more people to take in the train,

359
00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:16,200
Speaker 3: just like Billy said, we want fewer people driving. Why

360
00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,280
Speaker 3: do we make it so much cheaper to drive in

361
00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:19,600
Speaker 3: than it is to take the tea?

362
00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:23,280
Speaker 2: As I understand it, the reason for tolls is not

363
00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:27,600
Speaker 2: to raise money, really, but to control traffic.

364
00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:29,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, this is the big change that I think

365
00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:32,680
Speaker 3: we need to talk about as a state, because I

366
00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:37,160
Speaker 3: totally understand that for most of people's lives, tolling has

367
00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:39,520
Speaker 3: been about raising money. If you think about the original

368
00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,440
Speaker 3: turnpike Authority when it was built in the early fifties,

369
00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:45,199
Speaker 3: forties and fifties, they were very clear they're putting up

370
00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:47,840
Speaker 3: the tolls to pay off the bonds for the construction

371
00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:50,040
Speaker 3: of the road, and that's been kind of locked into

372
00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:54,840
Speaker 3: people's minds since the turnpike was created. But the places

373
00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:58,080
Speaker 3: that are really smart about fixing their traffic problems are saying,

374
00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:01,240
Speaker 3: you know what, tolling is actually not about raising revenue.

375
00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:05,000
Speaker 3: It's about providing a better trip for people that are

376
00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:07,960
Speaker 3: driving on the road. And there are actually some tolling

377
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:12,280
Speaker 3: authorities around the country that we'll say we will give

378
00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:14,840
Speaker 3: you not only a discount, we will wipe out the

379
00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:18,120
Speaker 3: cost of your toll entirely if you get stuck in traffic.

380
00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:21,679
Speaker 3: That's how confident they are that they can use tolling

381
00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:23,320
Speaker 3: to reduce congestion on the road.

382
00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:27,840
Speaker 2: So if it gets congested, they just turn off the

383
00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,520
Speaker 2: machine like free on the tape, you get to go

384
00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:31,760
Speaker 2: through the turnstaff free.

385
00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:34,240
Speaker 3: It still it stays on. But then when it actually

386
00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:35,719
Speaker 3: shows up on your built end of the month, you'll

387
00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:37,639
Speaker 3: see it crossed out and they say, we're not charging

388
00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,240
Speaker 3: you for that one because we did not deliver what

389
00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,120
Speaker 3: we promised. Who does this conjestion free road. It's more

390
00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:47,320
Speaker 3: places in like the South and in the West like Virginia,

391
00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:49,800
Speaker 3: for example, will do this, or Washington State will do this.

392
00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:53,240
Speaker 3: Where they've got they don't have the same type of

393
00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:54,919
Speaker 3: congestion pricing that New York has. They have it just

394
00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:57,040
Speaker 3: along a certain road, which I think would be a

395
00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:59,119
Speaker 3: good model for us here. Like you could just say, okay,

396
00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:01,639
Speaker 3: just let's just do the on the turnpike. Maybe we're

397
00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:03,600
Speaker 3: going to increase the toilet rush hour, maybe we'll reduce

398
00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,440
Speaker 3: it for non rush hour. But if we are, if

399
00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,400
Speaker 3: we are not effective at reducing congestion and rush hour,

400
00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:10,640
Speaker 3: we will give you your money back.

401
00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:13,880
Speaker 2: Wow. And I do want to agree make a point

402
00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:17,240
Speaker 2: of agreeing with what Billy said. People have cars. Everybody

403
00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:20,080
Speaker 2: is a car that carries at least, well most people

404
00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,639
Speaker 2: four people and this invariably one person in there one

405
00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:26,639
Speaker 2: and that that's a real weak link in the chain.

406
00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:29,199
Speaker 3: I really love Billy's call. I think he's got a

407
00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:31,520
Speaker 3: great sense of some of the problems on the road,

408
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:33,840
Speaker 3: and he's obviously experiences every day, so it's great to

409
00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:34,480
Speaker 3: hear from him.

410
00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:40,040
Speaker 2: And they used to enforce the car and is enforcement

411
00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:42,840
Speaker 2: on that down though, as it is in most other

412
00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:43,800
Speaker 2: areas of traffic.

413
00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:46,200
Speaker 3: I don't know the exact numbers on that, but broadly,

414
00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,200
Speaker 3: enforcement on our roads has been down since twenty twenty,

415
00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,080
Speaker 3: and there are lots of complicated reasons for that. I

416
00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:54,680
Speaker 3: think it's important that we enforce the rules on our road,

417
00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,240
Speaker 3: whether that's speeding or running red lights. I think most

418
00:19:57,280 --> 00:19:59,000
Speaker 3: people have noticed that there's a lot more of that

419
00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,639
Speaker 3: happening than they're used to, and that's not only unsafe

420
00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:05,600
Speaker 3: for people, it's in itself a cause of congestion because

421
00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,520
Speaker 3: it leads to more crashes, and crashes cause all sorts

422
00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:09,479
Speaker 3: of delays on our roots.

423
00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:13,520
Speaker 2: Right, that's another example of how lack of enforcement is

424
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,720
Speaker 2: harming us, not just public safety wise, but economically. I

425
00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:21,200
Speaker 2: would really be happy and excited if community communities would decide,

426
00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:25,159
Speaker 2: you know what, we kind of went with this easygoing

427
00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:27,760
Speaker 2: enforcement for a while, but there was a reason for it,

428
00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:30,880
Speaker 2: as it turns out, and we need to bring it back.

429
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:34,520
Speaker 2: We'll continue in a moment. We have Jane calling us

430
00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:36,320
Speaker 2: from Shrewsbury. We'll get to you in a moment and

431
00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:40,320
Speaker 2: more on. We'll call it surge pricing on the tolls

432
00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:43,040
Speaker 2: in the Boston area. What do you think, w.

433
00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:48,359
Speaker 1: Besy, You're on Night Side with Dan ray on WBZ,

434
00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:50,320
Speaker 1: Boston's news radio.

435
00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:55,280
Speaker 2: More on potential surge pricing on our highways. You had.

436
00:20:55,640 --> 00:21:00,800
Speaker 2: Surge pricing is a part of ride share, and you're

437
00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:02,560
Speaker 2: going to see it more and more. You already see

438
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:06,760
Speaker 2: it on the asella. You can call it surge pricing.

439
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,359
Speaker 2: It's better to call it dynamic pricing because it you know,

440
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,320
Speaker 2: in the morning, it surges down at any rate. We

441
00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:15,919
Speaker 2: have Jane and Shrewsbury joining Chris Dempsey, who's an expert

442
00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:18,800
Speaker 2: on transportation, and he's is an expert on this topic.

443
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:24,040
Speaker 2: So Jane and Shrewsbury. Can you put Jane up there? Jay? Thanks?

444
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,480
Speaker 5: There we go, Hi Jane, Hi, guys.

445
00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:29,040
Speaker 4: Hi. It's great.

446
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,800
Speaker 5: Great to get a chance to ask Chris a question

447
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:35,520
Speaker 5: because I've heard him before on the FM dial. So

448
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,400
Speaker 5: I think it's a great idea to have searge pricing

449
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:43,760
Speaker 5: or congestion pricing. And I did work in Boston for

450
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,880
Speaker 5: about ten years, a long time ago, and at the time,

451
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,240
Speaker 5: people could stay at parking meters all day, even if

452
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:52,679
Speaker 5: they said two hours. I don't think that still happens,

453
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:55,840
Speaker 5: and my experience is out of date, but I had

454
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,320
Speaker 5: coworkers that would get rides into the city if they

455
00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:01,320
Speaker 5: lived close, so the person would be giving them a

456
00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:03,679
Speaker 5: ride in, dropping them off, going back out, and then

457
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:07,600
Speaker 5: coming and picking them up later on. So because the

458
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:12,920
Speaker 5: subway was too expensive theoretically, and there weren't enough loading zones,

459
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,200
Speaker 5: so you'd find the delivery vehicles double parked all around

460
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,679
Speaker 5: in front of parking meters. And I just think we

461
00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:24,240
Speaker 5: need to make the city more pedestrian friendly, which means

462
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:28,000
Speaker 5: fewer cars are slowing down the cars, more crosswalks, So

463
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:33,280
Speaker 5: anything that makes it safer for pedestrians my mind is better. Yeah,

464
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,280
Speaker 5: more enforcement and the other thing. People act like electric

465
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,200
Speaker 5: vehicles are the answer, but they're still cars, so they

466
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,320
Speaker 5: still make they still take up space on the roads,

467
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:50,440
Speaker 5: and they don't reduce congestion themselves. And I also want

468
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:54,160
Speaker 5: to ask how come we don't have tolls to New Hampshire.

469
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,720
Speaker 5: That's been a topic for so many years, and every

470
00:22:57,720 --> 00:22:59,760
Speaker 5: governor seems to say we can't do what, we can't

471
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:01,920
Speaker 5: do it, but we get told when we go into

472
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,400
Speaker 5: New Hampshire. So I don't understand that.

473
00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,159
Speaker 2: So the question was, how come we don't have tolls

474
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:09,159
Speaker 2: into New Hampshire but we do at the Yeah, the

475
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 2: Hampton toad boo, there is a toll.

476
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:14,879
Speaker 5: There was no I mean, how come Massachusetts doesn't have tolls?

477
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:18,160
Speaker 2: Oh money, they don't split it with us?

478
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,400
Speaker 3: Okay, Well, Jane, it's great to hear from you, and

479
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,240
Speaker 3: I think you've got a very sophisticated view on what

480
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 3: we need to do as a region in terms of

481
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 3: improving transportation. So thank you for that. I think about

482
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,400
Speaker 3: this question about tolling at the borders a lot because

483
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,920
Speaker 3: my in laws live in southern Maine, and so every

484
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,040
Speaker 3: time that we drive up we usually we used to

485
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 3: take the Amtrak much more, but I've got a two

486
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 3: year old daughter now and it's a little bit easier

487
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:45,960
Speaker 3: for us to drive with her in the car seat,

488
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 3: and we pay that toll at the Hampton tolls, you know,

489
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 3: every single time we go visit them, and it's like, well,

490
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 3: this is We're only in New Hampshire for like six

491
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:55,159
Speaker 3: miles or eight miles or whatever it is, and then

492
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:59,159
Speaker 3: we're paying this toll. So I understand that frustration. I

493
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:00,879
Speaker 3: don't want to have to get into too much of

494
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:02,479
Speaker 3: a history lesson here, but I do think that this

495
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 3: is a little bit important and you'll know this as

496
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,399
Speaker 3: a Shrewsbury resident with the history of the Turnpike. The

497
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 3: turnpike was built before the Federal Highway Act of the

498
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,919
Speaker 3: mid nineteen fifties, and so it was funded not with

499
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 3: any federal dollars but entirely with state dollars and with

500
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 3: the bonds that were paid off by the tolls on

501
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 3: the turnpike. Most other highways in Massachusetts, including ninety three

502
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 3: and much of Route one, were built with Federal Highway

503
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:36,720
Speaker 3: state interstate dollars, and so the federal government actually prohibited

504
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 3: tolls on those roads. They said, you are not allowed

505
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:42,960
Speaker 3: to put tolls up on those roads. And that's why,

506
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 3: for example, ninety three doesn't have a toll on it

507
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,119
Speaker 3: anywhere on ninety three. There are many of us that

508
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 3: think that federal law should change and that we'd be

509
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 3: better off with a little bit more flexibility there. But

510
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 3: that's why some roads have tolls in Massachusetts and others don't.

511
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,040
Speaker 3: If you're paying a toll, it's usually because of the

512
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 3: road was built before the Federal Highway Act of the

513
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,199
Speaker 3: mid nineteen fifties. In terms of a toll at the border,

514
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 3: I think it's a really interesting idea, and I would

515
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,640
Speaker 3: only caution this. You can hear from the earlier discussion

516
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 3: today that I'm encouraging us to think about tolling not

517
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:18,160
Speaker 3: as a way to generate revenue, but as a way

518
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:22,479
Speaker 3: to better improve traffic congestion. And so I fear that

519
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 3: if we put up tolls at the border, we're sort

520
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 3: of saying, well, let's stick it to New Hampshire because

521
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 3: they're sticking it to us. Let's give them some pain

522
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,400
Speaker 3: because we're feeling pain from them. But I actually want

523
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 3: to have a conversation about how tolling helps us. It

524
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 3: makes us, makes our region work better for more people,

525
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 3: and ultimately saves people costs because they can save time

526
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 3: and money in so many other ways. And so let's

527
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 3: not think of tolling as a negative. Let's think about

528
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,400
Speaker 3: it as a tool that we can use to make

529
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 3: our roads work better. So that's my only caution about that.

530
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:52,159
Speaker 3: But I very much appreciate the question, and thank you

531
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:52,919
Speaker 3: so much for calling in.

532
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 2: Do you think New Hampshire thought, you know, let's put

533
00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:00,199
Speaker 2: up a toll before Massachusetts does does that kind of thing?

534
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 3: Actually, I mean, look, I'm very cynical about New Hampshire politics.

535
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:05,639
Speaker 3: And there's a governor up there right now who you know,

536
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,720
Speaker 3: ran on governor saying, we don't want to be like Massachusetts,

537
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 3: Let's be different. But I'm of the view and I

538
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 3: know that that our governor here, Governor Hewley, shares this

539
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 3: view that New Hampshire would basically not have an economy

540
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,159
Speaker 3: at all if they weren't for the Massachusetts economy. I mean,

541
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 3: we are the engine of the New England economy, and

542
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,639
Speaker 3: New Hampshire is lucky to have us nearby. I know

543
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 3: they like to poke fun at us and talk about

544
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:27,959
Speaker 3: how they have no sales tax and they like to

545
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 3: toll us, et cetera, et cetera, But I think that's

546
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 3: pretty small beans relative to the amazing state that we

547
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 3: have here in Massachusetts.

548
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, they have no sales tax, but they have fees

549
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:37,360
Speaker 2: they get, they get.

550
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,359
Speaker 3: Real estate taxes. Yeah, and and look, we've got you know,

551
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 3: probably the best public school system school systems in the

552
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,159
Speaker 3: entire country, and that's because our taxes pay for that.

553
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:47,680
Speaker 3: So that's something to be proud of that New Hampshire

554
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 3: definitely doesn't have.

555
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 2: I'm a new I am a New Hampshire person, a native,

556
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 2: So I can say New Hampshire live for or die.

557
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:59,439
Speaker 2: It's just a saying because cannabis is, as I understand it,

558
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 2: not even really legal, completely legal. Correct me if I'm wrong.

559
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 3: I think that's because I think I move from the

560
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 3: New Hampshire into Maine recently, and right over the border

561
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 3: in Maine there were a bunch of cannabis shops because people.

562
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,919
Speaker 2: How free are you really living up there? I appreciate that.

563
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,880
Speaker 2: Thank you very much, Jane. Can you take Jane down

564
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:23,879
Speaker 2: j Thank you very much. How does it work in

565
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 2: cities where it works?

566
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:28,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, well let's talk about New York City. So New

567
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,719
Speaker 3: York City has had this policy in place for almost

568
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 3: exactly a year. It went in place January fifth, of

569
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:39,120
Speaker 3: twenty twenty five. They have a toll that's nine dollars

570
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 3: to drive into the busiest, most congested part of Manhattan.

571
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,199
Speaker 3: On a weekday, it's any time between five am and

572
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 3: nine pm, and on a weekend it's any time between

573
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 3: nine am and nine pm. That's for passenger vehicles. Trucks

574
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 3: pay even more to do that. Since they have put

575
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,199
Speaker 3: this in place, their traffic is down eleven percent. The

576
00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 3: number of cars driving into Manhattan is down eleven percent.

577
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 3: Their air pollution is down twenty percent. They've seen faster

578
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 3: driving times. They've seen faster bus service, they have seen

579
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 3: a higher transit ridership. They've seen fewer car crashes. They've

580
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 3: seen fewer parking violations because there are now more parking

581
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,120
Speaker 3: spots available for the people that do drive in. They've

582
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 3: seen fewer traffic noise complaints. So all that you think

583
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 3: of Manhattan and gridlock and the honking that happens, and

584
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 3: how offensive that is if you're trying to walk down

585
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 3: the street, all the noise, the cacophony of noise, that's down.

586
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 3: They've seen fire response times, emergency response times improve. They've

587
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 3: seen school bus delays decrease, so kids are getting to

588
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 3: school faster. They've seen more people visiting the central part

589
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 3: of Manhattan than did before because it's happening more efficiently.

590
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 3: So transit ridership is up more than the number of

591
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 3: car trips is down, and so more people are visiting

592
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 3: the zone. And there were people that were saying things like, well,

593
00:28:57,560 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 3: this is going to be really bad for business because

594
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 3: it's going to scare people away. Sales tax revenue in

595
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 3: Manhattan is up verse prior years, and Broadway had its

596
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 3: best season in history after congestion pricing went in place,

597
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 3: So this has been a plus and a positive on

598
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 3: almost any possible way you can look at it in Manhattan,

599
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 3: and to me, that's compelling evidence. Again, I don't want

600
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 3: to persuade all of your listeners. I don't think I

601
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 3: can persuade them all that we should do this on

602
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 3: every road tomorrow. But let's at least try it out

603
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 3: on some other roads to see.

604
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 2: If it works here. Which one if you like to

605
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 2: try it on.

606
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 3: Well, I think the obvious place to start is on

607
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 3: places that already have tolls up, because then you don't

608
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 3: need to add any infrastructure. So let's say we started

609
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 3: with this, right, if all we did was say we're

610
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 3: going to give you a discount on the Tobin Bridge

611
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 3: if you drive in between ten am and five pm, right,

612
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 3: so most of the commuting traffic is done then. And

613
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 3: if you can switch some people from driving in at

614
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 3: eight thirty to ten o'clock and they can save, you know,

615
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 3: a buck fifty or a buck twenty five on the

616
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 3: toll to do that, let's give them that opportunity, just

617
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 3: to sort of get people thinking about different pricing at

618
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 3: different times a day, because that doesn't happen today anywhere

619
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 3: in Massachusetts there's no discount for any off peak driving

620
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 3: anywhere in Massachusetts on our roots. Let's just start with that.

621
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 3: I don't think that's going to fix the traffic problem

622
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 3: on the Tobin, but it at least proves that we

623
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 3: have the ability to get people thinking about different prices

624
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 3: different times a day. That would be a starting point,

625
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 3: and then we could go from there.

626
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 2: I know you don't count telecommuting as a real answer

627
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 2: to the traffic problem because you don't want people to

628
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 2: have to completely flip the script on their lives. But

629
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 2: perhaps something could be done to incentivize employers to have

630
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 2: more staggered shifts so that you wouldn't force the employees

631
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 2: to come in in the peak house. Yeah.

632
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 3: So I'm definitely open to that broadly. But you know,

633
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 3: we talked about this before the show a little bit.

634
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 3: I think that we deserve a transportation system that works

635
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 3: for our economy, not an economy that has to change

636
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 3: because our transportation system is so flawed. It's like we

637
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 3: can't get our act together managing and running our roads,

638
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 3: and so we're going to tell the entire economy to

639
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 3: work differently than it wants to work. Imagine if we

640
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 3: did that with our water utilities, and we said to

641
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 3: two companies, you know what, you got to stop flushing

642
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 3: toilets from nine am to ten am because there's too

643
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 3: much demand at that time. You got to tell all

644
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:23,479
Speaker 3: your employees that if they go to the bathroom, they

645
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 3: can't flush the toilet, right, and how awkward that would be.

646
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 3: Or if we said about our electricity utilities, you know what, sorry, guys,

647
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:30,959
Speaker 3: there's just too much demand. We're going to shut off

648
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 3: all your computers from you know, one pm to three pm.

649
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 3: You can't use your computers anymore. I think businesses would

650
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 3: be rightly upset if we did that, and I think

651
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 3: forcing them to try to do some telecommuting is not

652
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 3: the right idea. Now, if we if there's some sort

653
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 3: of encouragement or incentive, I'm open to that conversation. But

654
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 3: I think it's important to fix the roads for everybody,

655
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 3: rather than to try to sort of micro manage it,

656
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 3: so to speak, by talking to individual companies, which any

657
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 3: individual company is only going to represent you know, two

658
00:31:57,920 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 3: three percent of cars on the road, even the biggest

659
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 3: company in the state. So you have to really coordinate

660
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 3: with a lot of them. And I don't know how

661
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 3: effective that's going to be versus going right to the

662
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 3: heart of the problem, which is the people that are

663
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 3: actually driving.

664
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 2: Okay, one hundred percent of respondents now are in favor

665
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 2: of dynamic pricing on the tolls. You have about ten

666
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 2: to twelve minutes to avoice any opposition. Can you think

667
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 2: of a problem with it? Do you mind paying a

668
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 2: little more if you have to come on in during

669
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 2: the rush hour? Oh by the way, when you listed

670
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 2: off all the benefits that New York, so you didn't

671
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 2: even include the revenue that generated. And that wasn't the purpose,

672
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 2: but it's kind of a nice bonus.

673
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for bringing that up. And I

674
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 3: should have raised that again. The purpose is to make

675
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 3: the roads work better, not to raise revenue. But the

676
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 3: toll does generate revenue in Manhattan, and in their case,

677
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 3: they will raise five hundred million dollars this year. That

678
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 3: is going entirely to improve their transit system. That means

679
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 3: better buses, that means more subway service, that means anything

680
00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 3: that the system needs to run more efficiently and more

681
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 3: effect They're going to be able to invest in that.

682
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 3: And so not only are they reducing congestion and encouraging

683
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 3: people to take transit. They're actually providing a better transit

684
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 3: service because of that. When London did this, and London

685
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 3: has been doing this for twenty five years now, they

686
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 3: were able to bond on the congestion pricing revenue before

687
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 3: it even went in place. They used that money to

688
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 3: buy new buses, and so the day that congestion pricing

689
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 3: went in place, they also put hundreds of new buses

690
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 3: on the road on new bus routes, so they provided

691
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 3: more service and more options to people, and those buses

692
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 3: were running faster than they would without the congestion pricing.

693
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 2: It sounds like a win all the way around to me,

694
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 2: But there are probably things that I'm not thinking of.

695
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 2: Maybe Chris isn't thinking of six one, seven, two, five, four, ten, thirty.

696
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,240
Speaker 2: You have exactly actually after this break, you'll have a

697
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 2: few minutes to find a snagh.

698
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 3: Tell me why I'm wrong, tell me I'm crazy.

699
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 2: Good ten the plan, because as I told you, h

700
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 2: if you haven't spoken up by the time this is over,

701
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 2: we're all going to assume and anyone listening, and it

702
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 2: could be the governor listening that you're all into it.

703
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 2: So you better respond within the next few minutes. Six, one, seven, two, five,

704
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 2: ten thirtyth WBZ.

705
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:15,800
Speaker 1: It's Night Side with Dan Ray on wb Boston's news radio.

706
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 2: We're talking about search pricing for tolling to try to

707
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 2: reduce traffic and improve life, the lifestyle of all of

708
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 2: you getting into work in the economy. It's you can't

709
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:31,360
Speaker 2: have the transportation system breakdown. It's I can't think of

710
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 2: anything more important as the weather and then this transportation

711
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 2: and after that, what could be more important? Now? Is

712
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 2: there anything about Americans that we hesitate to do this

713
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,320
Speaker 2: kind of thing that Europeans embrace? Is there anything about

714
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,280
Speaker 2: the DNA of Americans that resist this stuff?

715
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 3: You know, I don't think so. And the reason I

716
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 3: say that is because we're really behind other states when

717
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 3: it comes to using this kind of take. And you

718
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 3: think about some of the more conservative states, the states

719
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 3: that you would think would be opposed to like big

720
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 3: government stepping in and setting prices on roads. You look

721
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,880
Speaker 3: at like a Texas. Texas has dynamic pricing on many

722
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 3: roads throughout the entire state, whether you're in Houston or

723
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 3: Dallas or Austin. I've driven on those roads myself, and

724
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 3: the pricing changes with the time of day. So you

725
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 3: know Florida has them, you name the Red State, and

726
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 3: if it's got big cities, and it probably has this

727
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 3: kind of solution. In a lot of ways, it appeals

728
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 3: to conservative thinking because it's about using the market rather

729
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 3: than just having you know, a set price of zero,

730
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 3: leading to these long lines. You think about like the

731
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 3: USSR people waiting in line for bread, right. Part of

732
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 3: that is because there was no price on the bread,

733
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 3: and so you had to wait to spend wait and

734
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,800
Speaker 3: spend your time rather than your rubles in that case.

735
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 3: So I don't think that it's necessarily a US thing.

736
00:35:57,200 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 3: I do think it's a Massachusetts thing, and I think

737
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:02,840
Speaker 3: the Big Dig is in part to blame for this.

738
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:05,839
Speaker 3: You know, it used to be true, Bradly that when

739
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 3: I was driving on the pike with my parents, like

740
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 3: in the nineteen eighties, you know, they might grumble that

741
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 3: they were paying a toll on that road when other

742
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 3: roads were free, but the quality of the turnpike was

743
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 3: actually much better than other roads in the state. The

744
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,879
Speaker 3: pavement was nicer and smoother than the pavement one twenty

745
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:22,800
Speaker 3: eight or ninety three, and so you you kind of grumbled,

746
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 3: but you were like, at least I'm getting something for

747
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 3: my money with the Big Dig. When we started to

748
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 3: increase tolls on the Turnpike to fund the Big Dig,

749
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:32,879
Speaker 3: the quality of that road didn't get any better even

750
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 3: though the tolls were going up. And so people, I

751
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,359
Speaker 3: think are rightly frustrated with tolling in Massachusetts because they're

752
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 3: paying something, they don't feel like they're getting anything out

753
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 3: of it. Yeah, and in Texas, when you pay your toll,

754
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:45,759
Speaker 3: you know you were getting a better trip because that

755
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:47,879
Speaker 3: money is going directly to make your trip better.

756
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 2: I had to bring up the condition of the roads.

757
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 2: That's that's a significant factor in a commute and probably

758
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 2: affects congestion and time. It's just it's good.

759
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 3: I'm already unpopular enough, I think with some listeners. But

760
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,280
Speaker 3: let me add one more reason why why I should

761
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 3: be unpopular, but why they should think about this. So,

762
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 3: the main funding stream for the quality of our roads

763
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:11,919
Speaker 3: in Massachusetts is the gas tax. The gas tax since

764
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:16,800
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety one has gone up a total of three cents.

765
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 3: That's fourteen percent in twenty five years. And you can

766
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 3: imagine that for that amount of money, we get a

767
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 3: lot less road than we used to. And so if

768
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 3: people want better roads. They need to be looking at

769
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 3: the gas tax as a way to fund it.

770
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 2: Can some of this extra toll tax go for that?

771
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 2: Or it just would never well.

772
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:36,839
Speaker 3: I like the idea of using the tolls to fund

773
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 3: transit to get people more options, okay, and using the

774
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 3: gas tax to fund the basic quality of our roads,

775
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:43,439
Speaker 3: because look, there are lots of roads in the state

776
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 3: that are never going to be told and they deserve

777
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:47,360
Speaker 3: to be paid for with the gas tax.

778
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 2: Okay, folks, this is how bad the roads are. And Chris,

779
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 2: I know that you're going to understand this. I could

780
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 2: afford to take an Uber here. It's late at night,

781
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:02,239
Speaker 2: it's cheap due to surge pricing or matinee pricing. It's

782
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 2: very affordable, way more affordable than owning a car for

783
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:10,360
Speaker 2: me to take an Uber home and faster and everything.

784
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 2: You know, Chris. The reason I don't is because it

785
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 2: is like a hell ride. It's it's like kind of

786
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 2: like like a coach in cal Vera going up to

787
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:25,839
Speaker 2: court Portsmith and you a wooden coach. It's just god

788
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 2: awful and I don't like driving on it. And I

789
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 2: live near oh Huntington, and the stretch from Huntington.

790
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 3: That's really rough. Yeah, with the train tracks, it's like.

791
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 2: They purposely put these vibrators in there. It's insane.

792
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:42,959
Speaker 3: It's funny you bring up Paul Revere because when I

793
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,840
Speaker 3: worked for a transitorision advocacy firm a number of years ago,

794
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:49,359
Speaker 3: people may remember this. We actually bought billboards around town

795
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,840
Speaker 3: to talk about the traffic problem, and one of the

796
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 3: billboards said, if Paul Revere had to sit in this traffic,

797
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:56,439
Speaker 3: we'd still have a king.

798
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 2: So you're firm again, Uh is about what dempsy? It's about? Uh?

799
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 2: You got like a minute, what can we do in

800
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:10,880
Speaker 2: our town to make things more walkable?

801
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 3: Well, we have this great tradition in Massachusetts of a

802
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 3: lot of local control over our roads, and so people

803
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:18,880
Speaker 3: may be surprised to learn that, like a lot of

804
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:22,839
Speaker 3: the daily transportation challenges that they experience, whether that's they

805
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,840
Speaker 3: have no sidewalks on their road, or whether it's unsafe

806
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:28,279
Speaker 3: for their kids to walk to school because they have

807
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 3: to cross the six lane road, a lot of those

808
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:32,359
Speaker 3: roads are controlled by their local government. That means that

809
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 3: it's their city councilors or their select board members who

810
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,720
Speaker 3: are making the decisions about how those roads should be designed.

811
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:41,720
Speaker 2: You have to contact them, and you have to matters

812
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 2: a part of your government. It's not hard either. They

813
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,439
Speaker 2: they have all their contact information right there.

814
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,360
Speaker 3: The answer for a failing democracy is always more democracy.

815
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:52,799
Speaker 3: We have a time thing. It's all over.

816
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,439
Speaker 2: I really thank you for coming in. It's a it's

817
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:57,719
Speaker 2: a really cold night, and I know you headed off

818
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 2: to the tea, so bundle up, folks. We're going to

819
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:05,840
Speaker 2: talk to a teacher who actually teaches kids real world skills.

820
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 2: And I ask you ahead of time, what kind of

821
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 2: things do you think she should teach? What? I have

822
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 2: a list? What about you? What real world skills? Wbez

823
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:14,720
Speaker 2: Eat News Radio ten thirty