1 00:00:01,639 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Get Connected with Nina del Rio, a weekly 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: conversation about fitness, health and happenings in our community on 3 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: one oh six point seven light FM. 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Get Connected. We are currently 5 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 2: in Ramadan, the holiest month of the year for Muslims, 6 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:24,960 Speaker 2: so a conversation about world history and the Islamic world. 7 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 2: The West shares a common world history, a perspective that 8 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 2: puts Christianity at the center of the world. But what 9 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:36,160 Speaker 2: if the center of the world was the Islamic heartland? 10 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:39,639 Speaker 2: How does world history look from there? And how does 11 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 2: the story from there influence how we all got here. 12 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 2: Tomim Unsuri is author of Destiny Disrupted, A History of 13 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 2: the World through Islamic Eyes. To mem Unsurre, thank you 14 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 2: for being on Get Connected. 15 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 3: Well, thank you for inviting me to mem. 16 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 2: Unsiri is an Afghan American world traveler, lecture Right Now 17 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 2: and editor. His other books include The Invention of Yesterday, 18 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 2: Road Trips and Games Without Rules, The often interrupted History 19 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 2: of Afghanistan. To Meme Unsari, you are not a trained historian, 20 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:16,040 Speaker 2: but you arrived on the path to writing this history 21 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 2: while working as a textbook editor for a school publisher 22 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 2: around the year two thousand. Can you talk about that 23 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 2: tug of war during that process working on those books 24 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 2: and what they made you think about? 25 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 3: Well, the tug of war during that process was I 26 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:34,679 Speaker 3: was hired to help develop a whole new world history 27 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 3: textbook for I guess eleventh grade. That's the grade in 28 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 3: which students and public schools in America get world history. 29 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 3: And as we were creating the table of contents and 30 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 3: dividing all of time into chapters and units, what occurred 31 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:54,559 Speaker 3: to me was that the history of the Islamic world, 32 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 3: or rather the presence of the Islamic world in world history, 33 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 3: was very reduced. Traditionally, it had been relegated to being 34 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 3: one of three chapters in a unit that was called 35 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 3: pre Columbian Empires of the Americas, Empires of Africa, and 36 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 3: you know, then medieval Islam, so it looked like Islam 37 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 3: was something that happened in the European Middle Ages and 38 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 3: then it ended. And I'm thinking, you know, when you 39 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 3: look at the map and you just look at how 40 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 3: big the Islamic world is, it's remarkable that it could 41 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:36,799 Speaker 3: be seen as not basically existing in history at this point. 42 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 3: And you know, I grew up in Afghanistan. My father 43 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 3: was Afghan, my mother was American, so I was living 44 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 3: in the bifurcation of these two cultures. And I went 45 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 3: to school in Afghanistan. I studied world history there, so 46 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:52,959 Speaker 3: I'd grown up with a sense of Oh, Islam is 47 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 3: this big important thing. It's still here and we're all Muslims. 48 00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 3: And I was startled by the paucity, the small scale 49 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 3: of Islam and world history that was in the year 50 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 3: just before nine to eleven. And then when nine to 51 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 3: eleven happened, because I was a very fluent in English 52 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 3: person from the Islamic world, all of a sudden, everybody's 53 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 3: coming to me and saying, what's happening here? Who are 54 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 3: these Muslims? And I found myself giving these lectures about 55 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:25,839 Speaker 3: Islamic history and drawing on what I knew, and then 56 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:30,360 Speaker 3: dipping into books to fill it in. And I decided 57 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 3: to write a book that talked about the prospective aspect 58 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 3: of history. 59 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 2: I think it's important to give kind of a lay 60 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 2: of the land for people who aren't familiar with much 61 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 2: of the Islamic world. So at its peak, from the 62 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 2: eighth to about the thirteenth centuries, the Muslim world was vast. 63 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 2: It's often called the Islamic Golden Age. Briefly, can you 64 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 2: talk about its size and scope from east to west 65 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 2: per se in comparison to what we now call the 66 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 2: Western world. 67 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 3: You know, within the first two or three generations after 68 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 3: the career of Prophet Muhammad, the Muslims of what is 69 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 3: now Saudi Arabia, you know, along the Red Sea coast. 70 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 3: There they went out, they conquered, you know, they spread out, 71 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 3: and within two generations there was an empire that extended 72 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:21,160 Speaker 3: from Iberian Peninsula from what is now Spain to basically 73 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 3: the Indus River and maybe a little across that. If 74 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 3: you look at that on the map, you will see 75 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:29,280 Speaker 3: that that was at that point the biggest empire that 76 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 3: had ever existed in history, you know. And the distinctive 77 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:38,280 Speaker 3: thing about this empire was that it was very commercial. 78 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 3: It was an empire that at the heart of it, 79 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 3: the Muslim community in Mecca and Medina and an Arabia 80 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:51,280 Speaker 3: in general, they were very involved in trading and mercantile activities. 81 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 3: So unlike the Chinese world, where trade and business was 82 00:04:56,240 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 3: looked down upon, the Muslim world was thought that was fine. 83 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 3: Prophet Muhammad himself was a caravan manager, and he was 84 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 3: involved in business. So they thought of business as being 85 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:13,160 Speaker 3: perfectly reasonable thing. As it happened, this territory that extends 86 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 3: from China in the east, to Spain in the west, 87 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 3: to deeply into the Indian subcontinent and then eventually up 88 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 3: into you know, the Balkan Peninsula and eastern Europe. This 89 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:31,600 Speaker 3: area was surrounded by big civilizations and so it was 90 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 3: the nexus of trade among these civilizations. So you know, 91 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 3: in world history that American high school students get it 92 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 3: has said that Islam was big in translation. It didn't 93 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 3: produce anything of its own. It was translating. Translating is 94 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 3: actually a very important thing, you know, I think it 95 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 3: has been when you talk about translation as odd. All 96 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 3: they did was translate. That's an unfair diminution of the 97 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 3: achievement of Islamic civilization in that golden era. Because Muslim 98 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:06,919 Speaker 3: scholars were among the first that were able to see 99 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:11,159 Speaker 3: side by side what Indians said about let's say, medicine, 100 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 3: what the Chinese said about medicine, what the Greek said 101 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 3: about medicine, put them all together and say how does 102 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 3: all this come together? So their medical textbooks, their mathematical work. 103 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 3: They came right to the verge of developing the scientific method. 104 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 3: You know, there was a physicist who discerned the particle 105 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 3: nature of light in many centuries before Newton. Trigonometry was 106 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:41,600 Speaker 3: basically invented in India. At that point, they had figured 107 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 3: out that the world is round, and they had come 108 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 3: to within a you know, one hundred miles or so 109 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 3: of calculating the diameter the size of the Earth. Algebra 110 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 3: was developed in the Muslim world. So all of those 111 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 3: kinds of achievements they had. 112 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 2: You're listening to get connected on six point seven light 113 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 2: f m am Nina del Rio, first published in two 114 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:08,479 Speaker 2: thousand and nine to mim Unsuri's book Destiny Disrupted. A 115 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:11,679 Speaker 2: History of the World through Islamic Eyes, traces the story 116 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 2: of Islam through the time of Muhammad in the sixth century, 117 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 2: through the fall of the Ottoman Empire, and to the 118 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 2: events of nine eleven and beyond. We are talking about 119 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 2: the new edition, and if I recall for my reading, Sir, 120 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 2: to continue what you were saying. While all this knowledge 121 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 2: in science, arts and math was being gathered, translated, and 122 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 2: synthesized in the Islamic world prior to about eleven hundred. 123 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 2: Europe at the time was in a very different place. 124 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 2: Their main focus was on survival agriculture. Then later, as 125 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 2: Europe gained strength, the powers that be there largely over wrote, ignored, 126 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 2: or erased the work of centuries of Islamic scholarship, so 127 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 2: much so that Islamic achievement isn't even studied now in 128 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 2: the West. Most people don't even know about the history 129 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 2: of that empire. It was an epic shift of power 130 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 2: and persons sception that lasts until today. What is really 131 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 2: the key to that switch. 132 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 3: Well, you know, I think the Crusades are an important 133 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 3: chapter of that history. Now, the Crusades in the Muslim 134 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 3: world at the time did not register as something huge. 135 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 3: It wasn't like a clash of civilizations as experienced from 136 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:26,679 Speaker 3: the Islamic side, because the Islamic side the Islamic world, 137 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 3: the drama that it was going through was its conflict 138 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 3: with the Turks and then the Mongols, the people of 139 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 3: the North. And you know, it's interesting to note. Actually 140 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:39,839 Speaker 3: one of the first things that attracted my attention and 141 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 3: then got me to write this book was that in 142 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:46,719 Speaker 3: Western history we think of the Roman Empire as being like, oh, 143 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 3: the big empire of history, and then it got too 144 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 3: big and it crumbled and the barbarians came down from 145 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 3: the north. Well, exactly that pattern of a story happened 146 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 3: in the Islamic world. It was the Arabs and the 147 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 3: Persians who created They fought this big civilization, and then 148 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 3: the nomadic Turkish tribes started biting away at it from 149 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 3: the north. And then there were these barbarians from way 150 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:13,319 Speaker 3: off and who knows where out there in the west, someplace. 151 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 3: They came in on their horses and they knocked some 152 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 3: things over. Well from the western side, when those crusaders 153 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 3: came in and they set up three kingdoms on the 154 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 3: Mediterranean coast, they had a hand now in the trade 155 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 3: network that made the Islamic world so prosperous. So now 156 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 3: they could access all these things that were being made 157 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 3: in China and India and various parts of the Islamic world, 158 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 3: and the Western people got interested in gaining access to that. 159 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 3: That set off what in European history is called the 160 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 3: Age of Discovery. It's a kind of a benign title 161 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,960 Speaker 3: for what was actually happening. But what they were looking 162 00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 3: for was a way to get around the Islamic world 163 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 3: and indirect access to all these trade goods of the 164 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 3: Far East. So the next chapter of history, that's what 165 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 3: happened for the West. Meanwhile, in the Islamic world, what 166 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 3: happened was there was an eruption of nomadic militant fervor 167 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 3: coming out of Mongolia. Changays Khan, Genghis Khan, you know 168 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 3: that guy in the devastation in the rubble that the 169 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 3: Mongols created. There arose the Ottoman Empire. There arose the 170 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 3: Saphawi Empire in the Iran, There arose the Morol Empire 171 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:37,439 Speaker 3: in India. And these were big civilized full of wealth. 172 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 3: So if you were living in the Islamic world at 173 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 3: that time, there was nothing in your everyday life that 174 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 3: will tell you, oh, something's wrong. They were oblivious to 175 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:53,439 Speaker 3: the fact that over here in the Western hemisphere there 176 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 3: was something entirely different getting started. And that's something different. 177 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 3: We can look back now and we can say it 178 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 3: was basically the Enlightenment and the birth of science and capitalism. 179 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 2: I guess jumping forward a bit to the end of 180 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 2: the eighteenth century. By that time, most Muslims officially still 181 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 2: had their own monarchs and rulers and governments wherever they 182 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 2: are wherever they were. But as you write in the 183 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 2: book quote from Bengal to Istanbul, these rulers were subservient 184 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 2: to foreigners in every aspect of their lives. And in 185 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:30,679 Speaker 2: most cases it wasn't because of epic battles. It was 186 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:35,199 Speaker 2: this kind of creep that took centuries. What was one 187 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 2: of the biggest factors that led to European Christians essentially 188 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:42,319 Speaker 2: infiltrating every level of those societies. 189 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 3: That's an interesting question. You know, it was a mercantile takeover. 190 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 3: I would say maybe the experience of the Bengalis in 191 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 3: India might be a perfect example of that. The British 192 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:58,960 Speaker 3: came in and they were traders in all these places. 193 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 3: It was the Britain is East India company, wasn't even 194 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:06,199 Speaker 3: the British, the British government. And in Bengal, for instance, 195 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 3: they they just took over what could be sold and 196 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 3: what could be imported. They had to sell their cotton 197 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 3: to European traders. They couldn't make clothes because that would 198 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:22,719 Speaker 3: impinge on the textile industry over there in Europe. And 199 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:25,680 Speaker 3: you know, then the clothes were made and brought back 200 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 3: and sold to the people who had grown the cotton. 201 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 3: The details are, you know, a little more complicated than 202 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 3: I've just put but the long and the short of 203 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 3: it is that within one or two generations there was 204 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 3: such a collapse of the of the economy there that 205 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 3: there was a famine in which something like millions of 206 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 3: people died in the Bengali famine there. And it was 207 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 3: a result of the disruption of a way of life 208 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 3: that at one time was feeding everybody and now it 209 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 3: couldn't feed anybody. And in the Ottoman Empire, those guys 210 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 3: had an economic system which was balanced out and it 211 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 3: depended on everybody following certain rules. It was a centralized 212 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:10,200 Speaker 3: economy in which the prices of things that people could 213 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 3: sell were regulated, the prices that you could pay for 214 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:16,479 Speaker 3: the raw materials to make stuff, it was all regulated. 215 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 3: And when the commerce between the West and the East 216 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 3: began in the Ottoman Empire, the regulation applied to the 217 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 3: Ottoman business people. It didn't apply to the to the 218 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 3: Western people, so they completely undermined the economy. 219 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 2: We're speaking with Tamim and sorry. His book is Destiny 220 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 2: Disrupted History of the World through Islamic Eyes. You're listening 221 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 2: to get connected on one six point seven light FM. 222 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:42,320 Speaker 2: I'mina del Rio. I want to talk a little bit 223 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 2: about some theology and then kind of bring us up 224 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 2: to present day for our last few minutes. Okay, So, 225 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 2: Islam has reverence for people of the book, those who 226 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 2: received divine scriptures and believe in one God. So that's 227 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 2: primarily Jews and Christians. However, in the West, Islam is 228 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 2: often presented being at odds with Christianity. What would you 229 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:07,719 Speaker 2: say are the fundamental, spiritual and practical differences between Christianity 230 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:08,439 Speaker 2: and Islam. 231 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 3: I think one, and this is not so much a 232 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 3: practical thing. This is like a premise thing. This is 233 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 3: like a deep principal thing. I think that there's something 234 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 3: about the theology of Christianity that focuses very much on 235 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 3: the individual. It kind of says, the heart of the 236 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 3: religion is salvation, and it's up to you, buddy, You've 237 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 3: got to save yourself. There's many rituals, there's various things 238 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 3: that you do, and those are all aimed towards salvation. 239 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 3: But you get your reward in the afterlife. Islam is 240 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 3: about the community. It says your salvation is derived from 241 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 3: being a good member of a community. Now, that's not 242 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 3: to say that each person is not also struggling with 243 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 3: how do I be saved? But I think that when 244 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 3: you think about Islam, it's interesting, it's very useful to 245 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 3: think about what is called the five pillars of Islam. 246 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 3: Basic Islam. If you don't have anything else, you got 247 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 3: to have these five and if you do, then you're 248 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 3: a Muslim. So one of them is a testament that, yeah, 249 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 3: I believe there's only one God and Muhammad was his messenger. Okay, 250 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 3: so that's a belief thing. But the others are once 251 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 3: in your lifetime if you can, you have to do 252 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 3: pilgrimage to Mecca. If you can, once a year for 253 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 3: a month, you have to do this fasting thing you 254 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 3: don't drink or eat from sun up to sundown. Basically. 255 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 3: Another is you do this prayer ritual five times a day. 256 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 3: Then there's zach ot. You know, you have to give 257 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 3: a portion of your wealth. You know. The idea there 258 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 3: is you got to reach into your pocket and take 259 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 3: your money and give it to somebody who's poor. If 260 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 3: you think about, put your hand in your pocket, take 261 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 3: the money out and give it to somebody. You know, 262 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 3: once a year for a month, everybody in the society 263 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 3: is going to be poor. The basic thing about poverty 264 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 3: is you're hungry. Everybody's gonna go hungry. We'll all share 265 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 3: that experience. Islam looks like something that you do, you know, 266 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 3: it's not just something you believe. And the idea is 267 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 3: if everybody does these things, then that will result in 268 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 3: a certain kind of society. 269 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 2: So for my last question, one of the reasons I 270 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 2: wanted to have this conversation, besides it being Ramadan, was 271 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 2: because we have just elected our first Muslim mayor in 272 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 2: New York City and reactions have been wide ranging, to 273 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 2: say the least. Now in the US we have a 274 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 2: separation of church and state by law, we have a 275 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 2: secular government in a majority Christian country. This is also 276 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 2: true in some majority Muslim states, Turkey being the largest. 277 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 2: But of course, personal beliefs will always influence how someone governs, 278 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 2: no matter their religion or where they are. So I 279 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 2: was reading this book over Veterans Day, where numerous times 280 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 2: you write that Islam isn't about individual salvation, it's about 281 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 2: community salvation. And at that time, instead of going to 282 00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 2: the parade in New York City, the Veterans Day Parade, 283 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 2: the mayor let went to serve food and speak with 284 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 2: veterans at a soup kitchen, and he got some flack 285 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 2: for not attending the Veterans Day parade. But my first 286 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 2: thought was, because I was reading this book, oh, this 287 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:17,440 Speaker 2: is about community, totally speculating. Have you given thought as 288 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 2: to how a Muslim leader might approach their responsibilities through 289 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 2: the prism of Islam? 290 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 3: Well, I think what you described Momnani doing is a 291 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:33,440 Speaker 3: Muslim thing to do, you know, uh huh. I think 292 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,679 Speaker 3: my heart goes out to him for that. You know, 293 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 3: I go, wow, that's so good. You know, all the 294 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:44,919 Speaker 3: anecdotes about the original Muslim community and Muhammed's time and 295 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 3: his companions, they're all at some point they have this 296 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 3: anecdote about how you can't tell which one is the 297 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,719 Speaker 3: supposed leader. He dresses like everybody else. He's sitting by 298 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 3: the side of the road. He's just one of the guys. 299 00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 3: So there's that. And I will say that, you know, 300 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 3: I grew up in in one of the most Muslim 301 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 3: communities that there is, Afghanistan. Would not admit there's any 302 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:10,159 Speaker 3: society more Muslim than Afghanistan in my day anyhow, And 303 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 3: believe me, the kings there were not like ordinary folks 304 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 3: sitting by the side of the road. So the Muslim 305 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:23,400 Speaker 3: ideal has not continued to reiffy throughout history. I think 306 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 3: that as far as that goes, however, I think that 307 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:31,479 Speaker 3: Christianity also has in itself it has that, you know, 308 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 3: those impulses of the pope washes the feet of the 309 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 3: poor or something like that. There's a ritual that the 310 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 3: pope does that that's in other religions too. I wouldn't 311 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:46,880 Speaker 3: say that Islam has a monopoly on on the idea 312 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 3: that there's something about being spiritual and religious that requires 313 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 3: of you not to separate from the poor. But in Islam, 314 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:00,159 Speaker 3: you know, there's two sets of versus in theirs, the 315 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 3: ones that were revealed in Mecca, and then when he 316 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 3: went to Medina and became the leader of the community. 317 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 3: There's a bunch there. And those Medina Sudhas have a 318 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:13,160 Speaker 3: lot of legislative sort of detailed it. But the Mecca 319 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 3: Sudras are very heavy on the two words widows and orphans. 320 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:23,959 Speaker 3: And it's so much at the very heart of Islam 321 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,919 Speaker 3: that the one thing we can't do is leave the 322 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 3: widows and orphans behind, you know, and Muhammad himself was 323 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 3: an orphan. He was, you know, his father was as 324 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:38,920 Speaker 3: had died before he was born. His mother died before 325 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:41,399 Speaker 3: he was a year old, so he was an orphan. 326 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 3: He was very alert sensitive to the fact that in 327 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:51,719 Speaker 3: a booming society that's wealthy and doing really well, nobody 328 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 3: looks after those people who are not able to keep up. 329 00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 3: And that was his central message throughout the Mecca periods. 330 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:02,200 Speaker 3: You can't leave the poorest of us behind. 331 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:06,679 Speaker 2: If you are interested in history, religion, culture, there is 332 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 2: so much more in the book, which is very readable. 333 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,919 Speaker 2: Destiny Disrupted A History of the World through Islamic Eyes 334 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,120 Speaker 2: by tamim Unserri. Happy Ramadan, and thank you for being 335 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:16,920 Speaker 2: on Get Connected. 336 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for inviting me. 337 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 1: This has been Get Connected with Nina del Rio on 338 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 1: one oh six point seven light Fm. The views and 339 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 1: opinions of our guests do not necessarily reflect the views 340 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:31,159 Speaker 1: of the station. If you missed any part of our 341 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 1: show or want to share it, visit our website for 342 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 1: downloads and podcasts at one o six to seven lightfm 343 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 1: dot com. Thanks for listening.