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Speaker 1: This is You're the Shifting quarterback, wins Leader fan Fan Radio.

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Speaker 2: Network things They're easily correctable and ka fa n dot com.

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Speaker 2: Two minutes and twenty three seconds past the hour of

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Speaker 2: three o'clock Central daylight time, Welcome back Tuesday, production of

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Speaker 2: the afternoon Ardvark on a decidedly overcast getting chillier by

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Speaker 2: the minute, Tuesday afternoon here in the Twin Cities that

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Speaker 2: we affectionately referred to as Minneapolis and Saint Paul. My

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Speaker 2: name is Dan Barrero, the host of the program. Former

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Speaker 2: Ink Saint Ratch newspaper the Twin Cities Guardsy is here

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Speaker 2: as well. The two time state high school tennis champion

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Speaker 2: and also the producer of the show. He is the

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Speaker 2: voice of the Golden Golfer women's basketball team. He's the

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Speaker 2: sideline reporter or Golden Gopher Football. He is the co

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Speaker 2: host of the PJ Flex Show. He is the co

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Speaker 2: host of the Basketball Coaches Show as well Correct TV.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, have I left any jobs out? Those are the

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Speaker 3: main ones, right, Yeah. I think you got it mostly

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Speaker 3: off the top of your head too. That was impressive. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: that's usually my memory doesn't work that well. But there

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Speaker 3: may be more coming. Who's to say, there's there's a

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Speaker 3: couple of things in the hockylating, Yeah, we'll talk.

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Speaker 2: There's a couple of things in the seeing all right, good, Well,

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Speaker 2: we'll miss you, We'll really miss you. But I mean

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Speaker 2: it won't affect any more days off at this point.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you're still going to be on the show.

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Speaker 2: It's not going to be on the show, off the show,

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Speaker 2: on the show. It's not going to be like every

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Speaker 2: other day. No, nothing like that. Nothing that will be

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Speaker 2: that dramatic.

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Speaker 3: No, I don't think so, well least yet not yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: you never know and not now.

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Speaker 2: Brat Shawn Brian Kafan text line has indeed been rebooted

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Speaker 2: at six four six eight six. We have a power

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Speaker 2: packed broadcast today. According to the uglydeck dot com guest lineup,

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Speaker 2: we're gonna give you details about an in studio guest

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Speaker 2: at three point thirty and a guest who will most

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Speaker 2: decidedly not be in studio just check the calendar to

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Speaker 2: know exactly why, but is generally speaking a Tuesday regular

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Speaker 2: on the program, The Shifting Quarterback wins Man. A lot

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Speaker 2: has happened since we left the air yesterday. Between then

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Speaker 2: and now that kind of fascinate me. All the moves

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Speaker 2: kind of fascinate me because some of them. Look if

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Speaker 2: if it's if we're just a dead set lock to

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Speaker 2: get Kyler Murray, then you could say, well, all these

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Speaker 2: other moves are academic and we don't necessarily have to

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Speaker 2: worry about them. But that's the question. Can we guarantee

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Speaker 2: that we've got Kyler Murray locked up if we've decided

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Speaker 2: that that's the direction we're going to go, because we've

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Speaker 2: had all kinds of quarterback movement that otherwise, for some reason,

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Speaker 2: we can't get our hands on Kyler Murray even though

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Speaker 2: we want them. Things get pretty interesting pretty fast, right

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Speaker 2: the I guess the biggest news that potentially might have

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Speaker 2: affected the Purple is the Geno Smith news right to

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Speaker 2: the Jets. In this case, nobody waited to sign him

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Speaker 2: as a free agent, and I think it was going

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Speaker 2: to be Wednesday. The Jets said we want you back.

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Speaker 2: So he got traded from the Raiders to the New

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Speaker 2: York Jets. Correct, yes, where he's been. He had been before.

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Speaker 2: Geno Smith and a sixth round pick. As recently as yesterday,

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Speaker 2: we were told by Kevin Seaffert that you know, Geno

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Speaker 2: Smith would be not a distant second to Kyler Murray

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Speaker 2: that he viewed, at least based on what he's been

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Speaker 2: told by Vikings people. Uh that that Geno was was

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Speaker 2: viewed as another viable candidate to be the veteran quarterback

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Speaker 2: that we bring in. Now that option, the fan has learned,

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Speaker 2: has been eliminated. Let me try this blindly. Okay, just

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Speaker 2: some quarterback quarterback wins, quarterback tech. Are you sure there

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Speaker 2: aren't any obscenities on this. I'm pretty sure it's just

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Speaker 2: windy wins. Anybody speaking all of a sudden. I don't

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Speaker 2: think bleep you or anything like that. That'd be quite

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Speaker 2: a hack to find out that's true. I kind of

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Speaker 2: like it. I don't mind the swirling wins. But there's

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Speaker 2: more example. One of the big time national college pro

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Speaker 2: football reporters wrote this, So, with Geno Smith out of Vegas,

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Speaker 2: the Raiders need a veteran quarterback to help with potential

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Speaker 2: young QB who could be joining their team. That assumption,

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Speaker 2: the assumption being that's going to be Mendoza, correct, and

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Speaker 2: then this right or lays out Cousins, Murray, Wentz, Garoppolo

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Speaker 2: are all available. So that got me to thinking about hmm, well,

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Speaker 2: maybe that would interest Kirk Cousins. At this point, the

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Speaker 2: assumption is that the kid that Mendoza is going to

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Speaker 2: start from the beginning, but maybe they have other plans.

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Speaker 2: You know. Tom Brady's Tom Brady, who knows what he

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Speaker 2: always thinks, third, fourth, fifth level. We assume he still

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Speaker 2: got great influence there, although the rumor was that he

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Speaker 2: if it was up to him, they would not have traded.

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Speaker 2: They're all all pro defensive pass rusher's all Crosby, Max,

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Speaker 2: Max Crosby, No, Max, Yeah, what's his name? I'm looking

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Speaker 2: at him, look him, look him up, just for us

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Speaker 2: to be sure. I don't know if that's true. The

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Speaker 2: Raiders got a bundle for him, Yes, I had a

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Speaker 2: couple of number ones, if I'm not mistaken. But in

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Speaker 2: any case, I don't know how much influence Brady has

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Speaker 2: about what's going to be going on at the quarterback situation,

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Speaker 2: but it would it's where already. You see, the league

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Speaker 2: is not just here to serve the Vikings Max, Max Crosby,

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Speaker 2: thank you. The league is not here just I know

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Speaker 2: we want to believe that in this town, but it's not.

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Speaker 2: There are other complications there's other teams who have different

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Speaker 2: ideas and may also be every bit as ambitious as

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Speaker 2: you think your favorite football team is. So then you

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Speaker 2: start saying, well, if for some reason again you've decided

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Speaker 2: you can't get Kyler, then just cousins. Should cousins be

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Speaker 2: part of that conversation? Because now Gino Smith is not available,

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Speaker 2: And everybody says, according to the prevailing quarterback wins that

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Speaker 2: you're gonna have to probably give up two or three

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Speaker 2: number ones to get the number the forty nine ers

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Speaker 2: backup quarterback. Not exaggerating, but apparently not by much. Apparently

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Speaker 2: the Niners are being absurdly demanding in what they say.

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Speaker 2: You want to talk to us about this guy, that's

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Speaker 2: what you're gonna have to give up. So so far,

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Speaker 2: there doesn't seem to be a lot of movement there either. Addition,

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Speaker 2: how about this headline as Aaron Rodgers takes his sweet time,

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Speaker 2: the Steelers, via Mike Garofolo, are quote nosing around unquote

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Speaker 2: the quarterback market, nosing around, nosing around, sniffing around. Can

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Speaker 2: you do do you have like sniff sounds? I don't

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Speaker 2: know if yeah, that might be that might be a

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Speaker 2: little bit aggressive, but regardless. You know what that does

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Speaker 2: for me, and I did. I I'm not trying to troll.

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Speaker 2: I'm really not. I I laid out earlier when I

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Speaker 2: saw that particular observation, I said, it's not too late.

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Speaker 2: We actually had that as the theme of the program

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Speaker 2: of a couple of weeks ago, playing off the old

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Speaker 2: Carol King classic too late Baby, or it's too late.

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Speaker 2: I think it is actually the name of the song,

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Speaker 2: too eight Babies in the lyrics. So I'm trying to

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Speaker 2: figure out what this all means. And again, it might

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Speaker 2: mean nothing if it's as simple as we getting Kyler Murray.

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Speaker 2: But as Seaford told us yesterday, we can't gamble that

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Speaker 2: the same way unless there's certainty. Because we played that

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Speaker 2: gambling game we put basically all our cards in one bet, no,

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Speaker 2: all our chickens in one beat, one basket, I think

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Speaker 2: is the cliche, and we ended up getting burned on

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Speaker 2: Daniel Jones, who we assumed we were going to be

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Speaker 2: able to keep. We thought so as the hedge in

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Speaker 2: case JJ McCarthy was not very good. So this is

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Speaker 2: where the clock is already starting. It's ticking. In that regard,

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Speaker 2: other moves have an impact I think on how this

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Speaker 2: thing might well go correct? What's the cliche like the

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Speaker 2: domino's fall, like the first domino falls, and then what

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Speaker 2: that that makes everything else a number of other moves

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Speaker 2: and fall in a nocean. Because every team might must

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Speaker 2: just say every team, many teams might have their own

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Speaker 2: quarterback desires, whether it's to have a starter, somebody who

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Speaker 2: could challenge as a starter or as a backup as well,

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Speaker 2: and they may have their own ambition. They're not going

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Speaker 2: to wait to see what the Vikings are going to

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Speaker 2: do first if they can help it in any of

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Speaker 2: these areas. Now, we'd heard yesterday the chance that Kyler

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Speaker 2: Murray might not it might not happen tomorrow, that he

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Speaker 2: might want to do the tour. Now, originally the Jets

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Speaker 2: were allegedly one of those teams. Clearly, either Kyler told

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Speaker 2: the Jets he's not interested, or the Jets said we

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Speaker 2: don't want to wait, or we like this other idea better.

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Speaker 2: And there's people in our audience who think Gino Smith

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Speaker 2: is a better option at this point than Kyler Murray

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Speaker 2: on the basis of not last year, at the previous

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Speaker 2: couple of seasons, when he seemed to kind of resurrect

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Speaker 2: his career. I said, if you forced me to make

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Speaker 2: a decision, I'd probably lean Kyler over Gino, but I

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Speaker 2: woul either. Now let me ask you about a tweet.

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Speaker 2: I think this is from just a rube, but I

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Speaker 2: found it very sensible and it was kind of reacting. Oh,

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Speaker 2: I know what it was reacting to Robert smith is

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Speaker 2: back on the Vikings quarterback story. He laid out he

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Speaker 2: just basically asked the question with with with accompanying photos,

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Speaker 2: who do you want? Do you want Kyler or do

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Speaker 2: you want kirkoa chains and a lot of people, not

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Speaker 2: surprisingly weighed in correct. Eggs in one basket. I guess

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Speaker 2: the chickens wouldn't be in the basket. The chickens would

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Speaker 2: be dead. The eggs that they laid would be the

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Speaker 2: in the basket. But I guess it could be alive.

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Speaker 2: That's true.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you want more eggs, Yeah you don't want, you know,

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Speaker 3: not like one batch and you to just gonna get.

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Speaker 2: Rid of the chicken chickens time Taylor, Well that's what

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Speaker 2: we were told. I mean, that's true, right, Yeah, that's

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Speaker 2: very very different. Anyway, here's what he wrote in answering

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Speaker 2: that question. See what you think of this, because I

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Speaker 2: think it's I think it's a pretty sensible observation. Again,

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Speaker 2: the choice in the Robert Smith question post is Kirk

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Speaker 2: ochains or Kyler. If McCarthy lat back up, if the

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Speaker 2: Vikings believe McCarthy is salvageable, it's Kirk all day long.

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Speaker 2: He'd be an excellent mentor for JJ, both on mechanics

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Speaker 2: and the playbook strategy. If Jmac is toast, it's Kyler.

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Speaker 2: He has far more long term upside compared to cousins,

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Speaker 2: which he acknowledges that still not a lot. I think

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Speaker 2: there's some logic to that. I think that's very smart.

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Speaker 2: I think it's very smartly put. I agree because and

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Speaker 2: we talked about this with Seaft yesterday too. If you

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Speaker 2: bring Kyler in and he's good to very good, you

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Speaker 2: can't dismiss him after one year again, dump him unceremoniously

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Speaker 2: like you did, Sam Darnold. I don't think you can

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Speaker 2: do that again and go to JJ, your your best receiver,

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Speaker 2: Justin Jefferson with a straight face and say we're still

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Speaker 2: believing in in McCarthy. But if you really, and this

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Speaker 2: is the key, it may be you could make the

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Speaker 2: argument that the decision the Vikings make in that regard

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Speaker 2: goes a long way or will go a long way

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Speaker 2: to answering the question he poses on deep down how

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Speaker 2: the Vikings feel about JJ McCarthy, How down, deep down

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Speaker 2: behind the scenes, not for public record, but off the

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Speaker 2: record they are on we just we miscalculated. He's not

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Speaker 2: what we thought he is. We're not convinced he's ever

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Speaker 2: going to get there, and we sort of semi have

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Speaker 2: to to move on. I think you could make a

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Speaker 2: correlation there that would be logical.

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Speaker 3: It's very Yeah, you'll be able to do the old

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Speaker 3: I hear what you say, but trust what you do.

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Speaker 3: It's a very easy thing to follow if they bring

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Speaker 3: in Kyler Murray rather than.

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Speaker 2: Kirky Bratchaw on Brian Kfan text line six four six

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Speaker 2: eight six. On the other hand, this just might make

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Speaker 2: the Vikings these moves already if they won't listen to

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Speaker 2: reason on Aaron Rodgers and see the opening that exists.

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Speaker 2: If they showed some aggressiveness, they may feel all that

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Speaker 2: much more committed to We get that. We have to

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Speaker 2: make it work at this point with Kyler Murray because

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Speaker 2: the guy we viewed as a decent backup plan if

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Speaker 2: somehow that went awry or the money got weird for

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Speaker 2: some reason because somebody else got involved. Gino Smith is

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Speaker 2: now off the table six four six eighty six bratch

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Speaker 2: on Brian Kfan text line. Let's get our first pause

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Speaker 2: in and we'll set up the rest of a very

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Speaker 2: busy shows. He'd like to get to a news on

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Speaker 2: the March today. That's at least the objective. We'll see

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Speaker 2: if we get there. Theuglydeck dot com guest lineup includes

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Speaker 2: lu Nanny at five thirty by telephone and the redoubtable

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Speaker 2: intrepid Carolevin. Reporter lou Ra Goose is going to join

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Speaker 2: us in studio at the bottom of this hour. He's

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Speaker 2: got a brand as of today, a brand spanking new

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Speaker 2: book out. It's called Mastermind, and the backstory on it

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Speaker 2: is stunning. He got a hold of a tragic story,

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Speaker 2: a story that has so many tentacles to it that

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Speaker 2: he had I think he covered through much of the

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Speaker 2: events taking place. Now he's put it together in a

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Speaker 2: new book, not to be confused with his highly successful

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Speaker 2: vanished in Vermilion.

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Speaker 4: Correct.

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Speaker 2: I think last time we had him in studio it

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Speaker 2: was to talk about the book. It was. We've had

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Speaker 2: him on many times since then, but last time in studio,

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Speaker 2: so he's going to be with us at three thirty.

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Speaker 2: I'm hoping for news on the march. I want to

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Speaker 2: rea very quickly some texts coming in regarding these swirling

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Speaker 2: quarterback wins. Kirkle will be much more expensive than Kylie

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Speaker 2: because you know it's kirkho So that makes Kylie the

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Speaker 2: obvious choice if we can get him. Do we know though,

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Speaker 2: that Kyler is going to go as easy as we think?

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Speaker 2: I know there's permutations to how you do it with

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Speaker 2: the guaranteed money he has. We'll see Jason in Orange City.

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Speaker 2: If they go to the Cousins arout, it seems they also

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Speaker 2: need another old backup that because the odds increased those

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Speaker 2: guys that get hurt like Wentz last year and going

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Speaker 2: to Brozemer or twenty twenty six version of Brozemer is

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Speaker 2: clearly a recipe for an l that said I vote

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Speaker 2: for signing Cousins, Jake Browning, oh wow just became available, okay,

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Speaker 2: or his ilk and keeping McCarthy. I don't see a

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Speaker 2: world where Murray is a seven year Super Bowl champ

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Speaker 2: with us or anyone. What are the chances the Vikings

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Speaker 2: don't bring an eight quarter in any quarterback at all

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Speaker 2: due to nothing exciting, too exciting being out there. There's

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Speaker 2: a good chance there won't be anything that exciting being

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Speaker 2: out there, but they will not. That will not stop

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Speaker 2: them from signing at least one. I think they've learned

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Speaker 2: their lesson. I think they feel too vulnerable. I think

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Speaker 2: the head coach feels too vulnerable to go down that

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Speaker 2: particular road. I get the necessity for the quarterback talk,

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Speaker 2: but anyone's saying that JJ is washed is foolish. And

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Speaker 2: I guarantee you know one what the Vikings thinks that

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Speaker 2: he's played ten games. Another dumb narrative that annoys me

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Speaker 2: is that bringing up in competition would upset JJ's ego,

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Speaker 2: like he's some kid that's lazy projection. He's going to

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Speaker 2: be fine. Well sadly, I think they were worried about

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Speaker 2: that last year. They shouldn't have been. I never believe

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Speaker 2: anybody should, but that's sort of the way it works

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Speaker 2: in the National Football League. I think the eh that

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Speaker 2: one's not worth going into. Is it really that straightforward?

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Speaker 2: If they bring in Murray, he only costs us one

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Speaker 2: million or something ridiculous little so I could see the

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Speaker 2: scenario where that doesn't mean they've given up on McCarthy,

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Speaker 2: but Kyler Murray's two d damn cheap to pass up on.

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Speaker 2: That's the number one question Michael writes that needs to

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Speaker 2: be answered. Are they done with JJ or do they

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Speaker 2: still have hope? It is the key question. I'm still

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Speaker 2: holding out right seven to six three guy for Mac Jones,

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Speaker 2: despite allegedly the Niners making huge demands on the flip side.

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Speaker 2: Can you bring Kyler in and just hand him the

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Speaker 2: starting job? You know, real in a best case scenario,

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Speaker 2: the answer would be no, you wouldn't have to obligate

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Speaker 2: yourself to anything. But if you're competing with another team

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Speaker 2: and you you've already lost the Geno Smith option and

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Speaker 2: you may not feel like you want cousins or you

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Speaker 2: have any interest in Aaron Rodgers and several others, you

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Speaker 2: may not have a choice. That's where it gets kind

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Speaker 2: of tricky and kind of interesting. Don't one put all

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Speaker 2: your eggs in one basket or two count your chickens

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Speaker 2: there you go before they hatch, which is also eggs.

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Speaker 2: Is it sad that when you say jets I immediately

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Speaker 2: think Sharks versus the Jets rather than an NFL team.

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Speaker 2: Do you really want the drama Queen Rogers on the team.

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Speaker 2: I'll give you a one word answer, yes, yes, I'll

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Speaker 2: shout it out if you want. From the mountaintops. Yes,

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Speaker 2: I don't think it's likely to happen. Dan Wunnesota heard

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Speaker 2: on nine to noon rob B. That would be Brazinski. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: we call him Briz on nine to noon. Is that

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Speaker 2: where they're going with I don't know, I've never heard

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Speaker 2: it until today. That's what Nordo and brizz Okay. Rob

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Speaker 2: B has the free agent market right where he wants it,

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Speaker 2: and those teams that spent yesterday were bad teams that

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Speaker 2: drafted poorly in recent years. So we're waiting for the

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Speaker 2: market to come to us now. Seefer did tell us

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Speaker 2: that's largely what he expected the Vikings to do, that

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Speaker 2: they weren't going to make be very splashy. I would argue, though,

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Speaker 2: part of the reason they're not being very splashy is

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Speaker 2: they probably can't afford to be that splashy at this point.

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Speaker 2: Not necessarily that you have to be a bad team

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Speaker 2: if you try to make a splash The first day.

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Speaker 2: We sure as hell were splashy last year. That's it.

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Speaker 2: So I don't think we can be too haughty about

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Speaker 2: the approach that we've taken. And the truth is, there's

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Speaker 2: some good teams that were splashy on day one, and

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Speaker 2: there's some teams, bad teams that probably overpay. Right, you

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Speaker 2: can make the argument that the Raiders for the big

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Speaker 2: time center they got from the Ravens, they overpaid. They

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Speaker 2: may look in their minds, though, we got to start somewhere,

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Speaker 2: and we need an anchor with our young quarterback right

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Speaker 2: and a center who doesn't have a butt sweat issue exactly.

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Speaker 3: Winning free agency day one and two is fun, it's

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Speaker 3: great if you're a fan, Yes, but it doesn't necessarily

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Speaker 3: guarantee you anything.

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Speaker 2: No, it doesn't. That part's also true. Instead of wind,

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Speaker 2: could it be the quarterback waves crashing into the Minnesota shoreline.

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Speaker 2: That might sound more pleasing over the radio, but no,

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Speaker 2: that's a splash. That's a Lavelle making a splash in

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Speaker 2: ways last Friday that we really didn't need was that

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Speaker 2: last Yeah you didn't, you weren't with us? I was

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Speaker 2: there for that one, yeah, Dan? Could it be the

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Speaker 2: Arizona Cardinals are waiting for the Vikings or another team

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Speaker 2: to try and get a draft pick from them instead

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Speaker 2: of outright releasing Murray. Well possible. I don't know what

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Speaker 2: the possibilities are there, because he's already given his emotional

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Speaker 2: goodbye as is, But so did Gino Smith, And ultimately

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Speaker 2: the Jets decided we don't want to wait. And I

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Speaker 2: guess you could argue what they give up.

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Speaker 3: You said a six, Yeah, let me double check it

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Speaker 3: was a sixth, and I think a seven was coming

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Speaker 3: back as well.

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Speaker 2: Oh, is that right? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: The Jets are sending a sixth round pick in exchange

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Speaker 3: for Smith and a seventh rounder.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'll say, is it's getting curiouser and curiouser by

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Speaker 2: the minute, right, because it looks like Chefy's talking about

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Speaker 2: Murray's future. By the way, his record in eighty seven

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Speaker 2: career starts thirty eight forty and one. Don't text me

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Speaker 2: with Sam Darnold's won lost records, please don't not the

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Speaker 2: way that's true too, By the way, was Darnald a

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Speaker 2: starter as long as I mean Kyler was basically the

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Speaker 2: guy other than due to injury for seven years? Is

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Speaker 2: he not? That's a hell of I mean, that's a

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Speaker 2: hell of an opportunity. That's a pretty big sample size

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Speaker 2: as well, so we'll indeed see. I wonder what Arlasky

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Speaker 2: is saying now about has he weighed in on Kyler Murray.

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Speaker 2: I tried to text Shawn Salisbury because I'm curious to

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Speaker 2: get his view, and I haven't gotten response yet. I

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Speaker 2: think he's in the classification of he hasn't been coached

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Speaker 2: great that, which would seem to indicate he believes there's

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Speaker 2: more there to get on Kyler Murray. Now, in defense

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Speaker 2: of Sewn Salisbury, he did tell us he thought there

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Speaker 2: was more meat on the Sam Donald bone as well,

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Speaker 2: and he ended up being pretty accurate, at least until

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Speaker 2: we got to the last regular season game in our

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Speaker 2: playoff game. But then again, Darnold did end up with

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Speaker 2: a Super Bowl run.

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Speaker 3: He did and played really well in the playoffs, including

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Speaker 3: the NFC Championship game. I vaguely remember Orlovsky a week

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Speaker 3: or so ago saying he didn't feel like Murray was

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Speaker 3: the fit for the Vikings that others did like he understands.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, interesting, well he's not right, he's not unless you

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Speaker 2: change these things.

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Speaker 3: He understood why Murray would want to be here because

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Speaker 3: every quarterback wants to. We are the QB rehabilitation mecha.

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Speaker 3: But for what he's good at him what Kevin O'Connell

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Speaker 3: asks of his qbs, He didn't think it was the

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Speaker 3: cleanest idea.

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Speaker 2: If you could get both at a reasonable price, why

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Speaker 2: not bring in both? Open competition between the three? Well,

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Speaker 2: who does he mean by both?

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Speaker 4: Six?

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Speaker 3: One two? Guy?

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Speaker 2: Who do you mean who are you thinking of bringing

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Speaker 2: in in addition to Kyler Murray cousins as well? Maybe

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Speaker 2: maybe that's the other one. But then you're back to

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Speaker 2: these guys. Even if they shouldn't have options, they probably do.

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Speaker 2: And they're going to go to the place where it's

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Speaker 2: a cleaner situation. They're going to go not just where

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Speaker 2: the money is, but where it's the cleanest situation, Is

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Speaker 2: it not? I would think yeah? And his cousin's going

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Speaker 2: to be signed for the minimum again too? Or is he?

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Speaker 2: As one of our textters says, is he different all

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Speaker 2: the time? Because he's he seems to be different, it's

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Speaker 2: all he seems to find a way.

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Speaker 3: Yes, he seems to be different. True, but he's got

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Speaker 3: a couple of nice houses because of it. He's done very,

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Speaker 3: very well for himself, Louer gooseen studio. That is scheduled

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Speaker 3: next we will get back to the swirling quarterback wins

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Speaker 3: for sure, Louis, so some good hockey conversation. I've got

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Speaker 3: some news on the March stuff to get to. I've

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Speaker 3: got some Minnesota Timberwolf stuff to get to as well.

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Speaker 2: So it's going to be a very busy, eclectic program

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Speaker 2: that we wrap up at the usual time sixth three.

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Speaker 2: Don't forget, Louis will join in about two hours. I've

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Speaker 2: got news in the March, got a lot of good

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Speaker 2: stuff on the top five at five yet to come.

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Speaker 2: Lou Er Goose kind enough to join us in studio

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Speaker 2: on book release day. For him, it's always a Tuesday

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Speaker 2: in the book industry, and on this day his new

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Speaker 2: book Mastermind, and he was kind enough to bring copies

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Speaker 2: to both Guardsy and me along with him for his visit,

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Speaker 2: A true story of obsession, survival and justice. WHOA welcome back.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me here, Dan, it's great to be

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Speaker 2: here in person. It's good to see in person, for sure.

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Speaker 2: I think the last time you were here in person

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Speaker 2: was vashon Ville.

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Speaker 4: Think it was correct. Yeah, that was my first book.

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Speaker 2: So we're going to get to a lot about the

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Speaker 2: story and what you found so compelling about it and

428
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:55,600
Speaker 2: some of the details which are pretty remarkable for those

429
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,159
Speaker 2: who weren't paying attention to the story. How do you

430
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,800
Speaker 2: But I'm always interested in so I'm of the I

431
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:06,439
Speaker 2: guess you could say inner workings, including how you decide

432
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,919
Speaker 2: on a title her book, because let's face it, for

433
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 2: a lot of people, it's got to grab him. The

434
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 2: book could be outstanding, it could be award winning, right,

435
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 2: it could be worthy of a Pulitzer Prize. But if

436
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:22,640
Speaker 2: it's got a title people kind of on at then

437
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 2: you're in trouble. Yeah.

438
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:25,399
Speaker 4: Well, I'm proud of the title because I thought of

439
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 4: him myself. The same with Vanishing Vermilion, but you.

440
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:30,880
Speaker 2: Went in both cases with the literation, which we love

441
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 2: on this show.

442
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 4: Let's start and the antagonist in the book is his

443
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:39,719
Speaker 4: name is Tim Omacker, and everyone who knows him from

444
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,119
Speaker 4: the Twin Cities knows him as Atlas because that's what

445
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,119
Speaker 4: he told everyone his name is, except for his taekwondo students,

446
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 4: because he was a taekwondo instructor in White Bear Lake

447
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 4: and they all called him Master Omaker and So.

448
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:54,399
Speaker 2: Did he demand that of them or did he just

449
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 2: do it out of is it considered a term of

450
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,639
Speaker 2: respect in that business? Out of respect?

451
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 4: The same time, his girlfriend that he had at the

452
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 4: very end, who he lived with, referred to him as master,

453
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:08,479
Speaker 4: which is one of the many bizarre things about this story.

454
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,639
Speaker 2: Okay, so give us, because this is a story you

455
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:15,239
Speaker 2: reported extensively, right, give us for those who have not

456
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 2: been paying attention or maybe forgot sort of the framework

457
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 2: the basics of this particular tragedy.

458
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:23,919
Speaker 4: Yeah, and the way that it came to me as

459
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 4: a reporter is kind of a good way to tell

460
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 4: a story. Because we heard there was a shooting. A

461
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:31,359
Speaker 4: woman was shot right outside family Wise, which is a

462
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 4: supervised parenting center on University Avenue where if there is

463
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,879
Speaker 4: custody issues and if a judge orders that one of

464
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 4: the parents can only have supervised visits, that's one of

465
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:42,439
Speaker 4: these places that can facilitate that.

466
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 2: So that's what was happening.

467
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,400
Speaker 4: Tim Amaker is having a supervised visit with the son

468
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,680
Speaker 4: that he shared with Nicki Lenway, who is the protagon,

469
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 4: the protagonist in the book, and she was going there

470
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,160
Speaker 4: to pick up her son and was shot right outside

471
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 4: the front door of Family Wise broad Day, and so

472
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,920
Speaker 4: it came like a shooting. And you know, when I

473
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,120
Speaker 4: heard the circumstances of where it happened, I'm like, well,

474
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 4: who's who's the father, Like, that's the suspect, right, And

475
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 4: then I heard actually he had an airtight alibi. He

476
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 4: was inside the building when it happened. So that means

477
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,399
Speaker 4: that we didn't just have an attempted murder here. We

478
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,679
Speaker 4: had an attempted murder plot, you know, like there was

479
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 4: more people involved.

480
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,119
Speaker 2: And how and how quickly was this case solved.

481
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:28,919
Speaker 4: It took a couple of weeks. It was enough for

482
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 4: Nikki to be pretty worried. When she she survived, okay,

483
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 4: And and this is her story, by the way, She eventually,

484
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 4: you know, told me that she wanted her story put

485
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 4: out to the world. She thought it could help people,

486
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 4: and that's how the book really got started. But she

487
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 4: was in the hospital and the tim Atlas had not

488
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 4: been arrested yet, nor had the young woman who he's

489
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 4: living with who referred to him as master. Her name

490
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 4: is Colleen Larson, and so they had to keep her

491
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 4: under a secret name. At the High Hospital. You have

492
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,440
Speaker 4: protection for her. There were police officers there at all time.

493
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 4: She works for the Minneapolis Police Farm. She's a crime

494
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 4: scene investigator, but this happened while she was off duty,

495
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,440
Speaker 4: so they were onto it right away. But it was

496
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 4: a pretty big investigation before they could make arrest.

497
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 2: They were on do it. It was pretty clear they

498
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 2: think we're gonna of hot that it took a minute

499
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:21,919
Speaker 2: or two, it was fairly clear. They knew the direction

500
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 2: on who they think was one way or another was

501
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 2: going to be responsible.

502
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,159
Speaker 4: Well they did for sure for Atlas, Ok, it's going

503
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 4: to be him. But then who was the shooter? And

504
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,639
Speaker 4: it was a slim figure with a dark hoodie. You know,

505
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:34,919
Speaker 4: they couldn't tell if it was a man or a

506
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 4: woman frankly and so, but that was the one clue

507
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:39,480
Speaker 4: that Nikki was able to help them with. No, the

508
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 4: shooter was a woman. She couldn't talk because the bullet

509
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 4: went through her throat. So she's helping the detectives with

510
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 4: a sharpie and a notepad, trying to write down include

511
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 4: them on where to go with this thing.

512
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 2: How significant were her injuries?

513
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 4: I mean it was less than a millimeter from severing

514
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 4: a major arguy that she would have died right there.

515
00:28:58,200 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 4: I mean, it is a miracle that she's alive.

516
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 2: So a lot of the backstory that you explore and

517
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 2: build off of and really drill down on is the

518
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 2: frustration of the victim in this case for what she

519
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 2: withstood prior to even being shot. Correct.

520
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, to put it this way, tim Amaker Atlas went

521
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 4: from being a bad boyfriend to being a controlling boyfriend,

522
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 4: to being a scorned ex who was who was trying

523
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 4: to retaliate, to becoming a dangerous ex and thankfully was

524
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 4: stopped before he became a deadly ex. And so he

525
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 4: was able to manipulate the system with false reports to police,

526
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 4: false reports to child protective services claiming that Nicky was

527
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 4: abusing their son, and as ridiculous as it sounds, because

528
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 4: I remember, you know, we heard some of that during

529
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 4: the trial, But it wasn't until I really explored the

530
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 4: civil case, the family court case, and interviewed Nikki that

531
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 4: I realized how many people along the way believed his lies.

532
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 2: And that's what's frustrating. You're right, he filed literally dozens

533
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 2: of what ended up being false police reports. Correct. Is

534
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 2: there a common thread as to why the courts seen

535
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 2: the system seemed to fail? So badly. Is this a

536
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 2: classic case of well, we have to be sure because

537
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 2: the accusations are serious. We're trying to protect the child.

538
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 2: Therefore we have to almost think the worst. What was

539
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 2: his Why was his strategy so successful and convincing the

540
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 2: courts to think that what he was saying had some merit?

541
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 4: Well, it was really finding just one person that was

542
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 4: willing to believe on in each of these cases. And so,

543
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 4: you know, the first reports would maybe go to police

544
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 4: and Child Protective Services and they would you know, investigate

545
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 4: and find that it was unfounded. But then a new

546
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 4: one would come in, maybe a different CPS worker would

547
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 4: be assigned to it. Eventually, on Christmas Eve one year,

548
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 4: a CPS worker got the case. She was sympathetic to

549
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 4: what he was claiming Christmas Eve, Christmas Eve, and she

550
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 4: went to Nicky's house and took the boy away and

551
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 4: he could not be with his mom on Christmas because

552
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 4: she was willing to believe the lies that Atlas was telling.

553
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 4: And not just that, but he would he would he

554
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 4: was grooming the boy to say these things. He would,

555
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 4: you know we're talking about you know, at age two,

556
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 4: three years old, four years old to say things and

557
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 4: then once he would say the things he wants to do,

558
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 4: he'd record it. And so when the professionals, like when

559
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 4: we're talking about the the parenting, like the psychologists that

560
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 4: would look at this stuff before the custody trial, they

561
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 4: could clearly see, well, this is staged. You know, you're

562
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 4: doing more harm to him by doing these little interviews.

563
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 4: And you know, who knows the kid wants to wants

564
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 4: to please his dad and wants to please his mom.

565
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 4: The kid doesn't know all the drum and that's going on.

566
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,479
Speaker 4: And so he was able to take advantage of that,

567
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 4: and it wasn't It would never be successful like forever.

568
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 4: Eventually it would get caught and be unfounded and it

569
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 4: would go back to the way it was, and that

570
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 4: would just fuel his anger to keep going.

571
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 2: And does Nicky talk to you very specifically about the

572
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 2: frustration of the system repeatedly failing to this extent.

573
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that is what largely the first half

574
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 4: of this book is or more. And I should say

575
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 4: that Minneapolis police did a great job investigating the shooting

576
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,959
Speaker 4: at the end, and Hennipon Countyttorney's office did an amazing

577
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 4: job prosecuting it. The system worked on the back end,

578
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 4: but it was on the front end. There was a

579
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 4: city prosecutor that charged Nicki with assaulting Atlas based off

580
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 4: of a claim that he made in a grainy surveillance video.

581
00:32:56,440 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 4: He claimed that she ran over his foot intentionally when

582
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 4: they're doing a child exchange at a taekwondo studio. He waited,

583
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 4: He waited to at an opportune moment. I won't give

584
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 4: too much away someone for the book to report this police.

585
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 4: He didn't report it when it allegedly happened, and he

586
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 4: only gave this police officer one video where you couldn't tell,

587
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 4: and I've seen the video, like you can't tell from

588
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 4: that angle. And a city prosecutor was willing to file

589
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 4: a charge, And Nicky had to stand trial on assault

590
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 4: charges long before Atlas ever had to stand trial on

591
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 4: attempted murder.

592
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 2: And did the case fall apart pretty quickly.

593
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 4: The jury took about five minutes to come back and

594
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 4: say not guilty, and then the judge went on to

595
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 4: expunge the case so that it's cleared out of the

596
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 4: records and can affect her no longer.

597
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 2: So on Atlas. You know a lot of times in

598
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 2: stories like these, we find out well for whatever reason,

599
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 2: he's just one of those individuals who people believe or

600
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 2: he's slick, or he's very effective in his ability to

601
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 2: strategize in control, and that people gravitate towards them, and

602
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 2: they're just they tend to like them. Even if we

603
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 2: find out that he's making stuff up as he goes,

604
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 2: does he fall into that classification one hundred percent?

605
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,320
Speaker 4: I mean, it was actually a challenging part of writing

606
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 4: the book is I had to find people that really

607
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,879
Speaker 4: liked Atlas to talk to them, to really show why

608
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 4: anyone who would want to be with them in the

609
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,360
Speaker 4: first place. And he was magnetic. He was a taekwondo

610
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 4: instructor that was essentially a role model to you know,

611
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 4: countless children that he taught in a father figure in

612
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 4: some ways. You know that in that position. He was

613
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,799
Speaker 4: an amazing dancer. So he would go clubbing in Minneapolis

614
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 4: and just the dance floor would clear because him and

615
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 4: his friends would just you know, the women wanted him.

616
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 4: And this is a funny detail from his next door neighbor.

617
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,799
Speaker 4: He had a purple light bulb on his porch and

618
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 4: when it was on, it indicated that Atlass was open

619
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:55,760
Speaker 4: for business and women could stop by really yep, and

620
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:57,439
Speaker 4: he said that. The neighbor told me he didn't believe

621
00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 4: it at first either, but then one day he saw

622
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 4: that the I had turned off and he saw a

623
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 4: car waiting out front with a woman who waited there

624
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 4: until the light turned back on and then she went in.

625
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 2: That's remarkable. How old is he during this whole period.

626
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 4: He's a little bit older than Nicky, so he when

627
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:14,720
Speaker 4: he went on trial, he was in his early forties,

628
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:15,320
Speaker 4: early forties.

629
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 2: Okay, so he's in the mid forties now. Any of

630
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:21,479
Speaker 2: the dude, did you have any luck tracking down and

631
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 2: questioning any of like the cp you mentioned the CPS

632
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 2: worker who removes the kid on Christmas Eve? Right, any

633
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:29,839
Speaker 2: of them willing to talk to you?

634
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 3: No?

635
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 2: Absolutely, not, no chance. No disappointing. And did they, I mean,

636
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 2: did you ever even get them to come to the

637
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 2: phone or would they say, well, this is I mean,

638
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 2: this legalities here. I can't possibly. They just avoided me

639
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 2: at all costs. Avoided at all costs, I mean.

640
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 4: And Dakota County Child Protection has received a lot of

641
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 4: scrutiny in recent years because there was the case of

642
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 4: a mother who killed her own son, and you know,

643
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 4: he never should have been with her right killed him

644
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:57,319
Speaker 4: in the car. It was a really horrible case that

645
00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 4: we covered, and there were lots of cracks in Dakota

646
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 4: on a CPS from that, and that was heavily reported

647
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 4: as well. So it's an organization that, or it's a

648
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 4: department I should say, that has seen its SHAREFF scrutiny.

649
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 4: And you know, I also tried to get at that

650
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,799
Speaker 4: shared parentingsentre where the shooting happened. Right up until right

651
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,359
Speaker 4: before the shooting. Atlas had the workers there convinced that

652
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 4: Nicky was the problem and that he shouldn't have to

653
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,400
Speaker 4: do this, and they felt so bad for him. I

654
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,280
Speaker 4: have emails that they had written saying, I've never seen

655
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 4: somebody you know, cause so many problems for a guy

656
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 4: like this before. Well, those workers I confirmed got fired

657
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 4: or left willingly at least and no longer worked there

658
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,319
Speaker 4: because that was obviously a very bad look for them.

659
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 4: Reached a couple of them by phone and they just

660
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 4: hung up on me.

661
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 2: Mastermind is the name of lou Raguse's new book, The

662
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,319
Speaker 2: Intrepid Caroleven reporter who joined us on a lot of

663
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 2: subjects Vashed and Vermilion, the last smashing success as well.

664
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 2: Mastermind out today. I'm assuming everywhere.

665
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, Amazon and and Barnes and Noble are obviously the

666
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 4: first two, and then it'll it'll get into all the

667
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 4: rest of the bookstores as well when they receive their

668
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 4: shipment and they say, if you go to the front

669
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:09,359
Speaker 4: desk of your favorite local bookstore and tell me why,

670
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:11,399
Speaker 4: they'll order it in. Because that's how it works.

671
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 2: Can you do this book? If Nicky it sounds like

672
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 2: she cooperated with you a lot and gave you a

673
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 2: lot of time and a lot of you know, emotion.

674
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 2: If she doesn't, can you do this book? I assume

675
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 2: that that to a large extent makes this book her willing,

676
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 2: her generosity in talking about stuff that can't be all

677
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 2: that easy to talk about.

678
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 4: No, it absolutely this is her story and it wouldn't

679
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 4: be a story if it was not for her. And really,

680
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 4: you know, there is a certain point where this relationship

681
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 4: went beyond what most the vast majority of controlling relationships are,

682
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 4: But there are many points leading up to it where

683
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 4: a lot of people out there could see themselves in this,

684
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 4: or family members that you know, they're families that have

685
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 4: a loved one, a daughter, or someone that's in a

686
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,919
Speaker 4: relationship like this, and they're just not seeing these red

687
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 4: flags or they don't want to see him. You know,

688
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 4: A psychologist told me a great way to explain it

689
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,439
Speaker 4: is like, and I'll use women as an example because

690
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:13,800
Speaker 4: it's the most common A woman in this position might remember.

691
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 4: They might they want to believe that the man is

692
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 4: the one that that she started dating, the real that's

693
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 4: who he really is, the guy that I met, the

694
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 4: exciting one at the very beginning. And this guy that

695
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,439
Speaker 4: that's you know, controlling and potentially abusive right now, that's

696
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 4: not really him. And so if we can get back

697
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 4: to the way it was, everything will be good again.

698
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,359
Speaker 4: But they don't realize that this is the real hymn.

699
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 4: The person you saw at the beginning was a mirage,

700
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,400
Speaker 4: and so getting that through put people in these positions.

701
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 4: It can be difficult, but that's the most important thing.

702
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:45,319
Speaker 2: Well, I think the common wisdom, conventional wisdom would be

703
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:49,960
Speaker 2: that you can speak to whether this is accurate, but

704
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 2: I think the perception is generally in these sorts of

705
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:56,399
Speaker 2: domestic situations, women are more likely to be It's the

706
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 2: male that tends to be more on the defensive and

707
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 2: the assumption of the people work the system is that

708
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,480
Speaker 2: it's the male that's going to be the problem. I

709
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:05,959
Speaker 2: don't know if that's true or now you can speak

710
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 2: to that, but that's part if it is. That's part

711
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 2: of what makes this interesting is that it's the polar opposite.

712
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 2: She's the one left forced to continually explain herself for

713
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 2: no reason other than he just keeps making stuff up.

714
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, and her crime was wanting him to be a

715
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 4: father figure in their son's life. Like, there are points

716
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 4: where she could have walked away, including when the son

717
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 4: was born, and you know, she thought she's seen what

718
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 4: a good guy he is with other people's kids at

719
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 4: the Taekwondos studio. She wants her son to have a

720
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 4: father figure, and so there were times that she could

721
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 4: have walked away. She chose not to, and she ended

722
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:41,440
Speaker 4: up being punished for it.

723
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:45,360
Speaker 2: What is Alice's background, I mean, where did he come

724
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,719
Speaker 2: from and what kind of clues does that give us

725
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 2: in terms of who he ultimately was revealed to be.

726
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 4: Well, he's the Saint Paul kid and his father took

727
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 4: his own life at when Atlas was pretty young, and

728
00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 4: that was a major point that shaped him in his life.

729
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,840
Speaker 4: He found taekwondo as a young as a teen, and

730
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 4: that helps shape him in a positive way. When he

731
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:11,240
Speaker 4: gets to be an adult, he's a semi professional dancer

732
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:14,280
Speaker 4: and then goes full time into this taekwondo and running

733
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 4: the gym type stuff, and so, you know what shapes

734
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:19,919
Speaker 4: him into who he is. I think that he goes

735
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 4: personally a lot back to his father.

736
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 2: Losing his father at a young age.

737
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 4: That was a moment in his life that put him

738
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:27,400
Speaker 4: on a path.

739
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:32,400
Speaker 2: The number we see stories similar to this, you know,

740
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:35,840
Speaker 2: any of the crime shows on the networks, forty eight hours,

741
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:40,319
Speaker 2: et cetera, all the big ones where in retrospect as

742
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 2: the story is told, because it's already taken place, we

743
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 2: hear all these things about the perpetrator, in many cases

744
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:50,360
Speaker 2: the husband, and we go, how could people not see this?

745
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:52,319
Speaker 2: What I mean, what an operator? You know what? It's

746
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 2: just it's so obvious. He's a compulsive liar. He's manipulating

747
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 2: people all that stuff. But it keeps happening, which tells

748
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:01,879
Speaker 2: us that we as smart as we think we are,

749
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 2: we still get bamboozled and fooled. Correct.

750
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, and if people are good at putting on a

751
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 4: mask and they look like somebody else in public than

752
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 4: they do in private. It can be confusing. There's a

753
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 4: lot of gas lighting that goes out here. Well, who

754
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 4: is the real person? Like, I want that guy, the

755
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 4: one that we just had drinks with with all the friends.

756
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 4: He's a great guy, everyone loves him. But then at home,

757
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 4: when he's controlling, not letting you leave the house, things

758
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:31,319
Speaker 4: like that, it's a completely different story. And one thing

759
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:35,359
Speaker 4: that it mostly was not physical. There were a couple

760
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:39,160
Speaker 4: instances of physical abuse, but this is mostly control.

761
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

762
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 4: And one thing that I thought was enlightening that Nikki

763
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 4: talked about was she could be at like a friend's

764
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:48,839
Speaker 4: wedding without him, and you would think that would be all. Now,

765
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 4: she can have fun, she can let loose. She said

766
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:53,800
Speaker 4: that was almost more stressful because he might be texting

767
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 4: or calling and it would create this feeling within her

768
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 4: that she just wanted to get away from that situation,

769
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 4: get back to him so that that incessant texting and

770
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 4: calling would stop and she wouldn't have to worry about

771
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 4: what he's going to say and what he's going to do.

772
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 2: And it had to be I mean, does she end

773
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:14,319
Speaker 2: up a lot of times individuals are in this kind

774
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 2: of web still somehow either blame themselves or they feel like, well,

775
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:20,759
Speaker 2: I got to keep I got to keep working at

776
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:22,759
Speaker 2: this I got to figure out a way out of

777
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:25,280
Speaker 2: this thing. Almost continuing to try to think the best

778
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 2: of the other individual. You hit the nail on the head.

779
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 4: That's really and she is a very empathetic person, and

780
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 4: that played in the negative in this case. But eventually

781
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,319
Speaker 4: she and she started to believe that it was her

782
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 4: fault and that he was mad at her for reasons

783
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 4: that she caused. And that's part of the gaslighting that

784
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,719
Speaker 4: goes on from Atlas in this case. One thing that

785
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 4: is good in this book is that she has a

786
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:52,320
Speaker 4: happy ending with love in her life, and so that's

787
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 4: you know, a part where you can see the story

788
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:57,520
Speaker 4: start to turn for the positive for her. But at

789
00:42:57,560 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 4: the same time, when Atlas saw that she was seeing

790
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 4: someone else, that's when he dialed up the the harassment.

791
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:06,319
Speaker 2: Is she back at work? She is? She is? Yep,

792
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 2: we're sure. The city of Minneapolis interesting. All right, let's

793
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 2: get our first pause in. I want to get a

794
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 2: few more things in if we can, on the book,

795
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 2: and then I want to maybe now that we have

796
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 2: you here, get you in a couple other directions as well.

797
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 2: If you have questions for lou on this story or others,

798
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 2: hit the bratch on Brian Kiffean text line. The number,

799
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:23,319
Speaker 2: as most of you know by now, is six four

800
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 2: six eight six six four six eight six. Some have

801
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 2: already indeed come in. We've got Louis joining at five

802
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 2: point thirty to talk Hockey Today, top five at five

803
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:38,400
Speaker 2: yet to come as well. The new book Mastermind, a

804
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 2: true story of obsession, survival and justice. How long do

805
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 2: the Vanshi in Vermilion come up? By the way, how

806
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:44,719
Speaker 2: long has that been?

807
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:44,839
Speaker 3: Then?

808
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 4: Twenty twenty three? It was about this time as February

809
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 4: of twenty twenty.

810
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:49,960
Speaker 2: Three sold well, didn't it? Yeah? Very well.

811
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:53,280
Speaker 4: It surpassed expectations for the publisher, and that's why they asked.

812
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:54,399
Speaker 2: Me to do another. That's what I was gonna ask

813
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 2: is does it work that way where you have good

814
00:43:56,480 --> 00:44:00,160
Speaker 2: success and they're more likely to trust your instincts that

815
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:02,279
Speaker 2: this is a story that people will pick up on

816
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:02,719
Speaker 2: as well.

817
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:06,880
Speaker 4: Yes, and especially I would say like publishers have like

818
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 4: a library books that come out every year they want

819
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,400
Speaker 4: to they have a couple like huge hits that they

820
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 4: make most of their money on. Then they want a

821
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:15,440
Speaker 4: well rounded library with the rest of the books. And

822
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 4: they told me, like, if you can get this one

823
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:20,439
Speaker 4: done way faster than you did your first one, pick

824
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:23,240
Speaker 4: a great case that you know can fill a book,

825
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 4: and if you can get it done in six or

826
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 4: nine months, we'll publish it. And that's kind of how

827
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:28,839
Speaker 4: it worked for me. I was fortunate with that, and

828
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 4: it was a grind to get this one done.

829
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:34,760
Speaker 2: I was going to say, are you a self starter

830
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 2: when you have a project like this in terms of

831
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 2: keeping to writing deadlines? Are you a procrastinator? How's that go?

832
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,319
Speaker 4: Earlier in life I was a huge procrastinator, But now yes,

833
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:45,879
Speaker 4: I'm very like focused. It's hard to pull myself away.

834
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 4: It's almost like being overfired. So when would you write

835
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 4: early in the morning or late at night?

836
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 2: One of the two? And did you have like you

837
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 2: a guy I gotta have. I got a little office,

838
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:56,239
Speaker 2: I got a little place I got to go. I

839
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 2: got like another place I go to to get away

840
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:00,839
Speaker 2: from everything where I can focus better.

841
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:04,320
Speaker 4: What was the the lou Ragoose writing approach? Well, sometimes

842
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 4: I'd go to the library. I really going to the

843
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:09,360
Speaker 4: library and the one at Ridgedale which is close to

844
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 4: caer Levin, or the one in excels Here is another

845
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 4: great small one, the one down Etan Prairieer and chan Hassen.

846
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:18,840
Speaker 4: Those are great libraries that it's quiet enough as well

847
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,279
Speaker 4: as there's not a major kid program going on in there. Yes,

848
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:23,360
Speaker 4: I could just dial in for a couple hours and

849
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 4: get a lost feel done.

850
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:25,960
Speaker 2: And you didn't write long handed?

851
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 4: You, no, no, no, I have a computer program that really.

852
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 4: The organization is the main thing because at Caro Leven,

853
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 4: I have notes, handwritten notes. I have everything in front

854
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:36,640
Speaker 4: of me when I'm writing that night's story and then

855
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 4: at the end, you know, everything's in front of me,

856
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 4: I can put it into a pile and I'm done

857
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 4: with it. But like when you write a book, it's

858
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:46,680
Speaker 4: way more organization is required and rereading stuff that you've written, you.

859
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:49,400
Speaker 2: What you're writing. Yeah, perfect, All right, let's get to

860
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 2: the top of the hour. Pause in more with Lou

861
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:51,759
Speaker 2: when we come back here in the