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Speaker 1: Is Tony Pike Cincy three sixty about Cincinnati.

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Speaker 2: From Cincinnati. This is ESPN fifteen thirty, Cincinnati Sports Station.

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Speaker 3: Hi, Hello, welcome in.

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Speaker 1: How we're number two of Cincy three sixty here on

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Speaker 1: ESPN fifteen thirty. I'm Austin Elmore. No Tony with us today,

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Speaker 1: Big Fellow back on Monday. But the show goes on,

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Speaker 1: and as we normally do at this time every Friday,

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Speaker 1: we talk to our guy, Charlie Goldsmith from Charlie's Chalkboard

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Speaker 1: The gold Standard on Fox nineteen, the Power Stacks Podcast.

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Speaker 1: He's everywhere these days, including in Arizona covering the Reds

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Speaker 1: in spring training. Hi, Charlie, how are you.

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Speaker 2: Austin? I'm doing great. How are you?

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Speaker 3: I'm wonderful.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious everybody keeps talking about the high sky in Arizona.

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Speaker 3: Can you describe that?

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Speaker 2: Like?

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Speaker 3: What does it mean to have a high sky out

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Speaker 3: there in Arizona?

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Speaker 2: You know what? That's one thing I still really don't

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Speaker 2: know the answer to. And you see it on both sides.

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Speaker 2: You see good, good fly ball catchers and dad flyball

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Speaker 2: catchers struggle with it. But I guess it's how few

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Speaker 2: clouds there are or something like that makes it seem

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Speaker 2: extra blue and extra extra high. But I guess this

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Speaker 2: is why I didn't make it into the big league.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's the first question of maybe many that I'm

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Speaker 1: going to ask you that I don't know if you

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Speaker 1: know the answer to, and the main topic being Hunter

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Speaker 1: Green and the elbow stiffness that he dealt with towards

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Speaker 1: the end of last year that is now cropped up again.

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Speaker 1: My first question would be when did the Reds know

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Speaker 1: that Hunter was experiencing elbow stiffness? Was it last year,

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Speaker 1: in the middle of it, or was it going into

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Speaker 1: spring training this year?

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Speaker 2: Yes, last September, the Reds and Hunter were We're talking

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Speaker 2: about this and it was something that I even had

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Speaker 2: heard rumblings of at the time but wasn't in position

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Speaker 2: to report. But that was around kind of a controversy

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Speaker 2: at the time, which was why weren't the red moving

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Speaker 2: Hunter's start day up a day to get him an

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Speaker 2: extra start your season? We know now it was because

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Speaker 2: of this stiffness. Now that's something I understand. They got

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Speaker 2: more clarity about in October, which led to Hunt for

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Speaker 2: getting an injection. The decision was made and I'm using

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Speaker 2: the passive voice for a reason to go with an

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Speaker 2: injection over something that would just completely eliminate it and

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Speaker 2: put it behind you. With Hunter obviously aiming for being

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Speaker 2: full goat to start a spring training, which he thought

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Speaker 2: he was going to be. But then obviously the sort

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Speaker 2: of I did not dissipate, and here we are now

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Speaker 2: waiting more information. But it's concerning. I mean not long

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Speaker 2: term the ugls clean, but right now for the start

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Speaker 2: of the season, it's concerning.

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Speaker 1: So was there imaging done after last year that revealed

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Speaker 1: that the UCL was fine and that there were bone

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Speaker 1: spurs and that led to the decision to get the injection?

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Speaker 3: Is that what you're saying.

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Speaker 2: That's that's how I understand it. Obviously Hunter knew about

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Speaker 2: the bone spurs before the sort. It's returned in spring.

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Speaker 2: That's how I understand the timeline.

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Speaker 3: What was the injection, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Usually PRP or I would assume it wasn't a quartzone shot.

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Speaker 2: That wouldn't make sense something like that.

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Speaker 1: But I don't have the answer to that, okay, And

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Speaker 1: so that kind of that makes the most sense to

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Speaker 1: me because I was the most curious about the timeline

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Speaker 1: and when the Reds knew and when they didn't and

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Speaker 1: what the decision was made to then, as you said,

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Speaker 1: kind of let it rest, give it the shot and

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Speaker 1: be ready for spring training. But it came back, and

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Speaker 1: so now I guess the question is could they take

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Speaker 1: that route again? Is that what they're trying to figure out,

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Speaker 1: either to take that same route or to have some

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Speaker 1: sort of procedure that's going to take him out for

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Speaker 1: an extended amount of time.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, the real answer is the truth is

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Speaker 2: here that they just don't know. And the takeaway from

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Speaker 2: the last week from the Red side from Greenside, it's

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Speaker 2: we just need more information because obviously a route that

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Speaker 2: would have been ideal wasn't taken in October because the

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Speaker 2: soreness returned, you know, they weren't able to really put

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Speaker 2: that behind them. So it turned out at the end

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Speaker 2: of the day, they just needed more information and that's

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Speaker 2: what Hunter's getting now. And again, the fact that Elatrosha

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Speaker 2: is involved shows that it's something they really feel like

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Speaker 2: they need an expert, not that they're don't have experts,

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Speaker 2: but but Ala Trasha is in the front of elbow

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Speaker 2: research in the world, so it's something they really need

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Speaker 2: an an expert expert expert opinion on because Plan A

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Speaker 2: didn't go according to plan.

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Speaker 1: I've talked to two different people now that have told

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Speaker 1: me that the shelf life for a Tommy John surgery

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Speaker 1: is in the six to seven year range. Now, you

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Speaker 1: just said that the UCL is intact, and that's not

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Speaker 1: something that I guess the reds are all that workorried about.

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Speaker 1: But Hunter Green did have Tommy John surgery in twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 1: which would put us on the timeline of maybe this

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Speaker 1: being an issue. Is that a concern at all within

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Speaker 1: the organization Tommy John or the UCL, or the impact

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Speaker 1: that what is currently happening could then impact the UCL.

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Speaker 2: I don't think so. And it probably depends on your

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Speaker 2: Tommy John surgery, because I know everyone's kind of different

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Speaker 2: based on how the ligaments, whatever I bet I can

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Speaker 2: come up with if you gave me him minute. A

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Speaker 2: lot of examples of guys who had Tommy John and

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Speaker 2: never worried about it. Again, that could be the case

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Speaker 2: for Hunter Again, he felt very confident about his elbow

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Speaker 2: and he had more information than he shared with it publicly. Sure,

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Speaker 2: so that's not something that is on the forefront of.

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Speaker 1: My radar, right now, okay, so now we look into

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Speaker 1: the trickle down effect on the rest of the organization.

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Speaker 1: What to you does this mean for Chase Burns, for

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Speaker 1: Rhet Louder, and even for Brandon Williamson.

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Speaker 2: Start here, like the Reds almost had a problem, that

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Speaker 2: a great problem, the perfect problem to have, like Rhet

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Speaker 2: Louder is the talk of camp. It was become so

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Speaker 2: entering camp. What I said, probably on the show, I

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Speaker 2: said it wherever it was. There's nothing wrong with having

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Speaker 2: wreck at his feet, wet and too play, build up

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Speaker 2: that competitive stamina, build up his arm, and then join

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Speaker 2: the big league rotation when they need him. Right. That

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Speaker 2: was not my opinion on Reht anymore. He was too

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Speaker 2: good to do that with. So they would have had

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Speaker 2: to have done something like the Brewers have done this

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Speaker 2: where it's kind of not a six man rotation because

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Speaker 2: they don't want that, and not a long reliever because

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Speaker 2: you want to keep them on schedule, but some sort

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Speaker 2: of hybrid piggybacked situation like they were about to have to,

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Speaker 2: you know, pull up a spreadsheet and figure out some

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Speaker 2: advanced picking plan to make sure that Rhet Louder was

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Speaker 2: in the big league, right, because you need him on

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Speaker 2: the roster. So now obviously he's just on the rosters,

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Speaker 2: just start or there is one more concern, which is

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Speaker 2: that they will have to manage the innings of Brett

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Speaker 2: Williamson over of course of the season right and act

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Speaker 2: Yard as well. So your starting pitching depth isn't full

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Speaker 2: starting pitching depth because you're not going to get to

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Speaker 2: get two hundred innings out of them. But now Louder

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Speaker 2: just joins the rotation and you got or you know,

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Speaker 2: Williamson's still competing and he's been a nice surprising camp.

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Speaker 2: But there's the top five right now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And so the trade for I believe Kyle Nicholas

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Speaker 1: the other day that sends Tyler Callahan to Pittsburgh, what

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Speaker 1: exactly does that trade mean? And could those two things

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Speaker 1: be connected if they're going to need to rely on

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Speaker 1: the bullpen maybe a little bit more while there's an

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Speaker 1: innings limit for those guys, What exactly does that trade mean?

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Speaker 3: In your eyes?

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Speaker 2: It's a completely separate conversation. And you know, I don't

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Speaker 2: want to read tune. I don't want to make too

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Speaker 2: much is what I'm trying to say. Of like the

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Speaker 2: spring the dak Maxwell Online, Richard Saner or the weak

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Speaker 2: May con of Philips is nice and he'll probably make

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Speaker 2: the team, but it's not like he's just been September

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Speaker 2: con of Phillips right away. I don't want to make

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Speaker 2: too much of any of that, but when you look

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Speaker 2: at the fact that no one really has has pop

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Speaker 2: pop pop out of that group, Like, for example, I

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Speaker 2: did my spring training player pull to day who's standing out?

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Speaker 2: And if you would have asked me a month ago,

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Speaker 2: I would have expected one of those rookies would be

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Speaker 2: having one of those types of springs where man like

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Speaker 2: this guy's about to be a seventh inning guy. That

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Speaker 2: just hasn't happened for any of them. So they want

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Speaker 2: to kind of add another dart because that's what what

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Speaker 2: relief prospects are, you know. Dart throws some sticks don't,

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Speaker 2: Some hit on their lead stuff, some can't throw strikes.

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Speaker 2: Nicholas he's twenty seven, he's a bit older, but he's

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Speaker 2: in the zack same bucket as May, Maxwell, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: Really great stuff, like great stuff. Can you throw a strike?

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Speaker 2: Who knows? Let's see, let's watch, let's all learn together.

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Speaker 2: He's a guy who kind of gives them another long

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Speaker 2: term option kind of looks a little bit to me

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Speaker 2: like Lucas Sims. When Lucas first got here, not obviously

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Speaker 2: was a ten out of ten outcome, but we'll see

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Speaker 2: if he can find the take consistency the Lucasis.

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Speaker 1: How do you balance placing players in these buckets while

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Speaker 1: understanding that it is spring training baseball, Like, yeah, Louder

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Speaker 1: is pitching really well, Burns is pitching really well, and

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Speaker 1: these other guys may and Maxwell maybe not as much.

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Speaker 1: And then a guy like you know, Graham ash Craft

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Speaker 1: and you know Santiine and Pegan way too early to tell,

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Speaker 1: they just had their first appearances, But like, how do

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Speaker 1: you balance putting them in those buckets and understanding, Okay,

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Speaker 1: this is really good, but also this maybe isn't and

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Speaker 1: it's also spring training baseball, and I don't want to

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Speaker 1: weigh it down too much.

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Speaker 3: How do you balance that?

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Speaker 2: It's especially hard with relievers and just full transparency, Like

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Speaker 2: I think personally, I'm the worst. The worst group for me,

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Speaker 2: the hardest groups for me to evaluate, and where I've

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Speaker 2: had the most missag is evaluating back end relievers, set

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Speaker 2: up guys, enclosures and spring training. I was thinking yesterday

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Speaker 2: while Santiano Pagan had bad days like but also I've

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Speaker 2: I've read into both good and bad guys who were

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Speaker 2: supposed to be back in relievers for the Reds, and

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Speaker 2: I've been completely wrong and completely missed on the path.

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Speaker 2: So it's you know, the context of their careers, whether

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Speaker 2: or not they're coming off injury, whether or not they

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Speaker 2: have a specific picture, adjustment or command thing they need

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Speaker 2: to fix ano positively and negatively, like you said, like Rhett,

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Speaker 2: just the pure stuff right, Like seeing that in the

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Speaker 2: fact that that exists, like that leads to the hype

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Speaker 2: around Red Louder, where like there are other guys who

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Speaker 2: you wouldn't read into positively. It's all they're all their

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Speaker 2: own thing. And I don't know if I have it right. Heck,

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Speaker 2: you know every day fult who probably gets happen right

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Speaker 2: to have to be wrong. Yeah, I will say this,

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Speaker 2: I'm I'm not concerned, I am noticing, or let me

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Speaker 2: say it like this way. A week from now, if

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Speaker 2: these bullpensure and continue, I won't be as excited about

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Speaker 2: the bullpen as that was entering Sprinter.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that kind of answered my next question because my

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Speaker 1: next question is, and I've I've never been shy about this.

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Speaker 1: I'm not buying what Graham Ashcraft is selling. Should like,

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Speaker 1: should I be concerned or am I crazy for thinking

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Speaker 1: like there's there's a lot for Graham Ashcraft to prove.

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Speaker 2: One hundred percent. I agree with that specifically, like and

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Speaker 2: again it hasn't happened yet, but like there's a world

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Speaker 2: where Phillips is this seventh h is this team seventh

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Speaker 2: inning guy by May, and of course then Ashcraft's in

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Speaker 2: a different world how I've always hun Ashcraft is. And

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Speaker 2: this is a compliment because Nick Martinez gets paid fifteen

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Speaker 2: million a year, Like I've always seen him as kind

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Speaker 2: of a guy like that, you can just give them

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Speaker 2: the ball, let it rip, give me a trip through

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Speaker 2: the order, and really just reliever Nick Martinez, because you

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Speaker 2: wouldn't be asking Graham to go back to the rotation

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Speaker 2: like a guy who when it's tied in the fifth

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Speaker 2: inning and your starter has a short day, you let

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Speaker 2: Graham get ned out. I think I really love Graham

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Speaker 2: in that role. Now. I asked about that, I know,

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Speaker 2: and during the spring the Reds were like, we believe

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Speaker 2: in Graham kind of they didn't say, yes, he's returning

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Speaker 2: to the seventh inning, but it definitely felt that way.

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to read into too much of what

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Speaker 2: he's done this spring. I will say last year he

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Speaker 2: was incredible out of the gate in MLB and they

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Speaker 2: kind of got worn down, got banged up a bit.

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Speaker 2: And I think what they chalked the ups and downs

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Speaker 2: last year up to was it was his first full

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Speaker 2: year's or reliever and he didn't even have a spring

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Speaker 2: as a reliever. And what Graham would tell you about

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Speaker 2: his spring this year is one his worst day the

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Speaker 2: other day in Oakland was not his fault. That was

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Speaker 2: his defensive fault and I wanted to Oakland those a

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Speaker 2: few days before that. And then two he's just learning

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Speaker 2: how to do spring training as a reliever. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean he's not a slam dun. He's not a

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Speaker 2: sure thing as a high leverage guy.

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Speaker 1: Talking to Charlie Goldsmith from Charlie's Chalkboard, the gold Standard,

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Speaker 1: Power Stacks and more. You wrote last week about key

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Speaker 1: Brian Hayes and kind of doing a deep dive into

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Speaker 1: that trade, and I know that that's something you've been

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Speaker 1: chasing down for a while about why the Reds decided

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Speaker 1: to do this What did you learn in writing that

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Speaker 1: story about the Reds and the plan and the belief

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Speaker 1: in Key Brian Hayes.

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Speaker 2: Well, first, obviously this isn't any breaking news. They got

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Speaker 2: him because of his glove and it's and nic Carl

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Speaker 2: told me that the clearest example of what they've done

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Speaker 2: so far that they're trying to be a pitching defense team,

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Speaker 2: more of a pitching defense team than they've ever been.

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Speaker 2: Now underlie and roll your eyes, underlying metrics, underlying metrics.

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Speaker 2: They saw a path and a plan and a vision

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Speaker 2: for Hayes that Pittsburgh and their coaches were doing the

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Speaker 2: very poor drab executing. So Brian talked about that it

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Speaker 2: wasn't necessarily a great hitting philosophy for his development. And

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Speaker 2: they're talking with Hayes about getting the ball in the

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Speaker 2: air more not necessarily being one so pull minded, and

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Speaker 2: two like there were stretches when we're like, just get

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Speaker 2: the ball on the ground and make contact, do whatever

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Speaker 2: you can to make contact. The Reds and Cabrian for

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Speaker 2: the first time since twenty twenty three when he's actually

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Speaker 2: was an average hitter, which for him, I mean, that's

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Speaker 2: a valuable player with his glove, like they feel like

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Speaker 2: they have an idea that Hayes believes him that can

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Speaker 2: get him back to that The Reds planted that flag

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Speaker 2: and said this is what we think and believe when

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Speaker 2: they traded a notable prospect for him, and now it's

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Speaker 2: just one can they execute it and two can Cabrian Hayes' back,

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Speaker 2: you know, a chronic back issue, ensure that that happens.

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Speaker 1: Defensively, we were just kind of talking in the first

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Speaker 1: hour about Ellie de la Cruz and this being a

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Speaker 1: year where you would hope that he can be a

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Speaker 1: little bit more consistent, and obviously that the quad played

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Speaker 1: a role in that. Is there anything different from Ellie

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Speaker 1: so far in spring training defensively? That feels like he's

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Speaker 1: on the right path there.

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Speaker 2: Ellie's always good in spring defensively. I talked to Freddy

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Speaker 2: Benavidez about this at the start of spring about specifically

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Speaker 2: the drills he wanted to do. He spoke about being

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Speaker 2: a lot more situational. Freddy kind of coined the term.

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Speaker 2: David Bell used it a lot talking about LA's defense.

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Speaker 2: Now Tito used it a lot. Freddy didn't invent this term,

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Speaker 2: but coining this term with Ellie is the thing. It's

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Speaker 2: the clock, you know. And Freddy gave me an example,

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Speaker 2: like you have Bellin's you're running down the line, your

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Speaker 2: upper run on the road, what type of throw do

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Speaker 2: you make this time? Or you know, how do you

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Speaker 2: take one out or two? Like all of these specific

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Speaker 2: game situations that kind of the consistency got away from

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Speaker 2: Ellie when he was hurt last year, and that was

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Speaker 2: the conclusion that red made. But this is an example

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Speaker 2: they feel of him just having not played a lot

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Speaker 2: of games and he should be at the point now

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Speaker 2: where that isn't a problem, which it was because you know,

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Speaker 2: even in twenty twenty four early twenty twenty five still

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Speaker 2: hadn't played a ton of games because he broke out

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Speaker 2: during the pandemic. So that's been the big focus with him.

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Speaker 2: It's been clean in spring, but it's something you really

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Speaker 2: need the season two to get a real evaluation and

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Speaker 2: field more.

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Speaker 1: Finish off the Reds conversation with Matt McClain question, and

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Speaker 1: you obviously have seen him up close over the last

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Speaker 1: couple of weeks when I've gotten a chance to see

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Speaker 1: McClain on TV, it just feels like there is a

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Speaker 1: confidence for him inside the batter's box, he has a plan,

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Speaker 1: he's not chasing pitches that he can't do anything with.

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Speaker 1: I feel like he's picking the ball up a lot

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Speaker 1: better than maybe we've seen him in the past. I

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Speaker 1: know you wrote about some of the adjustments. What stands

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Speaker 1: out as maybe the most important adjustment Matt McClain has

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Speaker 1: made that seems to be paying off so far in

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Speaker 1: the spring.

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Speaker 2: Do you talk about his confidence And maybe this isn't

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Speaker 2: a good comparison, but I'm going to anyway, Like when

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Speaker 2: Milobe Marte was at third base, he was just a

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Speaker 2: bad thrower, and every day he knew he was going

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Speaker 2: to put himself in a spot where he needs to

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Speaker 2: make a throw, and every day he did. And they

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Speaker 2: moved in the right field. But once Marte moved the

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Speaker 2: right field, we all know, I mean, actually he's not

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Speaker 2: having a camp. But they we'll see, we'll see how

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Speaker 2: it goes with him. But moving to right field freed

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Speaker 2: Marte up and just made him this whole new person.

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Speaker 2: So for McClain, the hole in his game last year

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Speaker 2: was the loan away slider. Every day, every scouting report said,

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Speaker 2: throw McLain a lone away slider, and mcclan would just

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Speaker 2: come up short literally on all of them in swinging

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Speaker 2: minutes and chase and it was just a huge hole.

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Speaker 2: So what you sell from him in this spring with

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Speaker 2: set a foundation just I'm gonna take the ball the

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Speaker 2: other way and that build some good habits and a

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Speaker 2: good rhythm and a bit of confidence. Now you see

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Speaker 2: McLean one driving balls opposite field and then two building

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Speaker 2: off that hit power, that loan away slider stuff. That's

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Speaker 2: that's the key. And once you finally feel confident about

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Speaker 2: the position you're in against those pitches, that just changes

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Speaker 2: the way you feel as a human being every day.

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Speaker 2: So is McClain confident he's gonna have this All Star season?

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Speaker 2: We'll see. I think he's really gaining confidence in the

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Speaker 2: ability to hit loan away sliders. I talk to him

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Speaker 2: and Tito about this. The opposite field single against the

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Speaker 2: loan away slider was the moment from a fourteen run

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Speaker 2: game that everyone was talking about after the game in

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Speaker 2: the clubhouse and with the coaches and that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 2: So doing that really is a big deal for him.

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Speaker 1: Is there anyone that could challenge him for the number

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Speaker 1: two hole in the lineup right now?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Really hasn't been a competition. Yeah, I thought they

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Speaker 2: moved around some more. I think it started that way

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Speaker 2: just because he's kind of the guy you want to

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Speaker 2: get the most gut back too. Probably Sal would, I

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Speaker 2: mean he's on a great camp. Sure would be the

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Speaker 2: the other option, depending on what they want to go. Really,

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Speaker 2: that's a feel decision based on kind of how Frank

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Speaker 2: ConA wants to handle and manage MacLean and his confidence.

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Speaker 1: Before I let you go, I do want to ask

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Speaker 1: you quickly about the Bengals. Obviously have checked off a

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Speaker 1: couple of things on their offseason lists. With Dalton Reisner

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Speaker 1: and with Trey Hendrickson and free agency looming next week,

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Speaker 1: is there anybody that you feel like make sense as

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Speaker 1: some potential targets for the Bengals as we get into

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Speaker 1: next week free agency.

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Speaker 3: You be keeping an eye out on so we'll roll.

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Speaker 2: Our eyes force multipliers. But I actually tried to take

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Speaker 2: that thought seriously and like tried to find guys who

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Speaker 2: are people at specific positions of need, who you can

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Speaker 2: see on tape and with how they're used making others

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Speaker 2: around them better. That would be Boy mafet Edge. That

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Speaker 2: would be Leo Shanal or katan Ellis at linebacker, and

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Speaker 2: that would be Kwon Brisker or Jalen Thompson at safety.

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Speaker 2: They each I think the Bengals know exactly what they

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Speaker 2: need at each position. I think this year they have

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Speaker 2: one because of Al. But I also think Al and

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Speaker 2: his scheme make it very clear exactly what they need

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Speaker 2: and what they're looking for. Now, my question is can

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Speaker 2: the Bengals. Can the Bengals execute kin the Bengals one,

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Speaker 2: you know, negotiate to write this and that and get

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Speaker 2: it all done. And two just like you know, they've

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Speaker 2: gotten guys like Shelton Rankins who they thought was going

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Speaker 2: to be a young leader for a young defensive line

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Speaker 2: group and that just didn't happen. Like, you need to

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Speaker 2: make sure you're bringing in the right people as well,

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Speaker 2: which they haven't done a good enough job of in

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Speaker 2: free agency over the last couple of years. So they

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Speaker 2: need to nail that part of it right, which you

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Speaker 2: should be syptical about because they haven't recently. But from

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Speaker 2: a football X and Oz's perspective, I think they know

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Speaker 2: exactly what they want and at least to me, there

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Speaker 2: are those players available.

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Speaker 3: That's uh.

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Speaker 1: I agree one hundred percent Charlie, really appreciate it. Enjoy Scottsdale.

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Speaker 1: It's the best grapefruit or the best Cactus League stadium

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Speaker 1: out there is Scottsdale, the home of the Giants.

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Speaker 3: I hope you enjoy it today.

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Speaker 2: Thanks man. I appreciate that.

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Speaker 3: All right, Thanks Charlie, take it easy er.

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Speaker 1: That is Charlie Goldsmith, So Charlie's Chalkboard, the Power Stacks Podcast,

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Speaker 1: gold Standard, Fox nineties everywhere. He wrote about Dalton Reisner

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Speaker 1: this week as well. He's just he's a content machine.

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Speaker 1: And Friday's at one o'clock personally my favorite segment of

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Speaker 1: the week. All right, when we come back, A Friday

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Speaker 1: edition of Talkbacks right here on ESPN fifteen thirty