1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:04,720 Speaker 1: It's NIC's Eyes with Dan Ray on Bulging Beasy Boston's 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:05,440 Speaker 1: news radio. 3 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 2: As you probably know by now, President Tamaduro and his 4 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 2: wife Celia pleaded not guilty to drug trafficking charges and 5 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 2: other charges in Manhattan court. Now there's cooling their heels 6 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 2: in a detention center in Brooklyn. Next court date March seventeen. 7 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 2: And there are a lot of questions and we're going 8 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 2: to get some help answering them. Some of the questions include, 9 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:34,199 Speaker 2: what was the justification? Was it a police action or 10 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 2: an active war? Should Congress have been notified? Which should 11 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 2: be our rule going forward? Think about all these things, 12 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 2: I guess the overall question for you all listening in 13 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,199 Speaker 2: all participating is was this a good thing or a 14 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 2: bad thing? Is this a net positive or a net negative? 15 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 2: You may be surprised, I think how I feel about this? 16 00:00:57,120 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 2: How will we control the oil? More questions? If we 17 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 2: do control, what would be the justification for being in 18 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 2: control of the oil? Is there pushback on this? And 19 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 2: where's it coming from? Trump said, I'm in charge? What 20 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 2: does that mean? Is there a plan for going forward? 21 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 2: What was Maduro's wife's involvement? I'm you know, what did 22 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:24,400 Speaker 2: she do to get arrested. Its spelled out in the documents. 23 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 2: I'm sure, but I don't know. Hopefully we'll find out 24 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 2: from our guests. Will we have a force on the ground, 25 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 2: will listen Bold in China China to make a run 26 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 2: at Taiwan, and Bloomberg says that China hails this action 27 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 2: as a Taiwan template. 28 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:44,679 Speaker 3: So there's that. Now. 29 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 2: To answer these questions and give us her views, we 30 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 2: have Toughs Unit of university professor and political silent scientists. 31 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 2: Consuelo Cruise, Welcome to the program, Consuelo. 32 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 4: Well, thank you. Brodley, thank you for of course. 33 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 2: Can you tell us a little bit about yourself before 34 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 2: we get into your feelings on this. 35 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 4: Yes, I studied Latin American politics, and I every year 36 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 4: I teach a course on the politics of the region. 37 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 4: And one of the countries that we always look at 38 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 4: very closely is Venezuela because it's one of the most 39 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 4: interesting cases. For many, many years, Venezuela had a very 40 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 4: competitive electoral democracy, but it fell under its own weight, 41 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 4: if you will, because it became ineffective and unresponsive, and 42 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 4: in fact, my Travis tried to overthrow the electoral democracy 43 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 4: through proved and failed. But then he ran for president 44 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:59,080 Speaker 4: and won the elections overwhelmingly because people were so dissatisfied 45 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 4: the democratic regime, and from there begins to real tragedy. 46 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 4: Once Childs came to power, both the politics and the 47 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 4: economics of the country began to decline, all right, dramatically. 48 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 2: Once again, folks, I'd like to know if you think 49 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 2: overall that's action is a good thing or a bad thing. 50 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,119 Speaker 2: I have all kinds of information on it. I'll even 51 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 2: tell you later on what hardware was used, what planes 52 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 2: were used, and how they were used, what other assets 53 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 2: were used? Six one, seven, two, five, four, ten, thirty 54 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 2: is the number first question for you is you would 55 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 2: have a way better sense than I of how the 56 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 2: people of Venezuela feel about this. 57 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 4: Well, uh, the chives on my little regime, and it 58 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 4: goes the regime, of course, goes much more deeply than 59 00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 4: these two individuals. They are only the facade basically drove 60 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 4: the economy and society into the ground. 61 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 3: It's basically a failed state, right. 62 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 4: Almost, yes, and it brought misery upon the Venezuelan people. However, however, 63 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 4: they were politically organized to an incredible degree. The Socialist 64 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 4: Party of Venezuela was very, very strong. They had a 65 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 4: populist network. This was a populist regime. It is a 66 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 4: populist regime, and they also had a strong base of support. 67 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:47,279 Speaker 4: I would put it to this at this time, maybe 68 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:51,040 Speaker 4: around twenty to thirty percent of the population. So in 69 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 4: that sense you have a polarized population. But the vast 70 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:57,480 Speaker 4: majority are happy to see him a little bit, the. 71 00:04:57,520 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 3: Vast majority are happy to see him go. 72 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 2: So there's that there are Do you see any other upsides? Well, first, 73 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:10,280 Speaker 2: would you say that as an upside. 74 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:13,159 Speaker 4: It is good, but it is not much of a 75 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 4: high bar, because who wouldn't be happy to see somebody 76 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 4: like Malulu go? 77 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 3: Okay? 78 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 4: And on the other hand, on the other hand, as 79 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 4: I said before, the regime is everywhere. Malulu can be 80 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 4: somewhere in New York and his wife also, and they 81 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 4: could even get rid of Rodriez and everybody else and 82 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:44,600 Speaker 4: the regime would remain. It's very deep, it's everywhere. It's 83 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 4: been under construction for twenty five years and everyone. 84 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 3: Yes. 85 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 2: Would you say Maduro is a charismatic leader. I guess 86 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 2: from what I hear he's not, because you're saying that 87 00:05:57,320 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 2: there are other folks that can pick up the reins 88 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 2: and drive the drive the truck, so this is not 89 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 2: that big a deal. 90 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:07,719 Speaker 4: First of all, you have, for example, about I don't know, 91 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 4: maybe thirteen thousand collectibles, which are a combination of gangs 92 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 4: and paramilitary troops. They don't wear uniform, but they are 93 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 4: extremely dangerous and as we speak, even though Interim President 94 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 4: Robriugez has said that she's willing to co operate with 95 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 4: the United States, the collectibles are conducting inspection of automobiles 96 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 4: and are intimidating the population. So you can see. And 97 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 4: this is just the collectibles. And then there are the delicious, 98 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:41,359 Speaker 4: which are part of the Armed Forces and rest and 99 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:44,919 Speaker 4: report to the Strategic Command. And then you have the 100 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:48,799 Speaker 4: armed forces. None of them, I mean, the Armed Forces 101 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 4: would not be able to deal with an americanization, but 102 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 4: they would be able to collectibles, the milicious, and maybe 103 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 4: the remnants of the Armed Forces or some of splinter 104 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 4: groups to wage asymmetric warfare greal warfare, which is what 105 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 4: we have seen in all the Petro states like you're at. 106 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 4: So this would be a serious problem for the United States. 107 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 2: Go ahead, yes, go ahead, all right, overall, this is 108 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 2: my take on it. And uh, I think folks will 109 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 2: think it's a surprising take. For me, it seems like 110 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 2: it's it's a win in many ways and and a 111 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 2: downside in only a couple of ways. 112 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 3: It's a win. 113 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 2: Well, it's a win because the vast majority of the 114 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 2: folks who are glad to see him go he was 115 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 2: he was an oppressive dictator. This doesn't cure everything. 116 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 3: I know. 117 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 2: It's a win because the economy will probably get a 118 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 2: boost now because it was a failing economy. It's it's 119 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 2: a win because the you'll finally be able to get 120 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 2: that oil out of the ground and make some money 121 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 2: off it. And Venezuela has the biggest proven oil reserves 122 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 2: about three hundred billion barrels. 123 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 3: But they only get about one. 124 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 2: Excuse me, yeah, they only get about one million barrels 125 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 2: out of the ground each year, which is a waste. 126 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, when Travis came to power, there is to 127 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 4: get above three million a day. So the decline has 128 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 4: the decline has been dramatic. The industry, the infrastructure of 129 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 4: the oil seals, the pipeline, everything is in disrepair. Also, 130 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 4: he purged the industry of technical experts and geologists and engineers, 131 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 4: and then of course there's been a brain drain. People 132 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 4: have left. Some of them are now working somewhere in 133 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 4: Houston for some oil company, why because of the economic 134 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 4: crisis that the regime brought on. However, to rebuild the industry, 135 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 4: the SECT will take between one and ten years. The 136 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 4: first three years will probably be mostly about doing the basics, 137 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 4: sort of getting the machinery running and maybe you know, 138 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 4: maintaining the production at about one million barrels a day 139 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,439 Speaker 4: but in a more efficient way. And then comes to 140 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 4: real hard work, which is to modernize and be furbish 141 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 4: the industry, and that would take another five years. And finally, 142 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 4: you know, in the most pessimistic scenario, you would be 143 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 4: done in about ten years. 144 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 3: Terrible. 145 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:45,319 Speaker 2: Ten years is not a terribly long time in the 146 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 2: big picture. I can't get a sense of how you 147 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 2: feel about it overall. Are you glad this happened or 148 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:52,319 Speaker 2: do you think it shouldn't. Do you wish it had 149 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 2: not happened. 150 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 4: I am happy that he's gone, but this is not 151 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 4: going to be easy, and it might have been doing 152 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:07,679 Speaker 4: it in a different way, because the idea here is, 153 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 4: first of all, it's going better than I had that 154 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 4: I had expected because I think Marco Ruvio, Secretary of Rubio, 155 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 4: is determined not to let the United States be dragged 156 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 4: into a quiemire, right, and so what he says is 157 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 4: on one leverage, so that we can control oil experts, 158 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:30,320 Speaker 4: and we can do it remote control. 159 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 2: Right. 160 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 4: We're not going to go in. I know that President 161 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 4: Trump says will send troops in if we have to, 162 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 4: but I think their preference is not to do it. 163 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 4: I think that they would prefer to do it remote control, 164 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 4: not risk American casualties because it would be extremely dangerous. 165 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 4: But the problem is that it isn't just one hundred 166 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 4: billions the billions that it would take, but it's also 167 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 4: the years and in the meantime. Bradley, what does it 168 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:07,440 Speaker 4: look like for Venezuela to survive? For example, the United 169 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 4: States says we don't want them selling all of the 170 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 4: conditions is you're not going to be selling to our 171 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 4: adversaries petroleum. Well, Venezuela lives off of it's experts to China, right. 172 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 4: I think that some of the benefits are going to 173 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 4: be are some of the things that are going on 174 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:32,440 Speaker 4: are not as visible. I believe that for Secretary Rulio 175 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 4: and really important beneficial externality or good effect, would believe 176 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:45,959 Speaker 4: for Havana people, because Havana lived off of the petroleum 177 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 4: that can Act has spent for free, not only because 178 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:54,199 Speaker 4: it needed it for domestic consumption, but also because it 179 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 4: generated revenue. They resolved it. In other words, they got 180 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 4: foreign exchange. The Hubans did by reselling the surplus of 181 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 4: the petroleum that they got from Venezuela. So for Barcar 182 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 4: Gouvio and for the United States, this would be a 183 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 4: huge win if Havana falls. The other thing that I 184 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 4: believe is going on is that the Trump administration is 185 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 4: sending a signal, a message to Greenland, basically saying that 186 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 4: the Monroe doctrine, in his view and in his hands, 187 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 4: applies also to Greenland, and Greenland is strategically, if not 188 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:38,679 Speaker 4: more important than Venezuela to the United States for reasons 189 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 4: that we could discuss some other time. But I think 190 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:46,959 Speaker 4: that the package of goals and objectives of this military 191 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 4: move is much bigger than Venezuela. It involves China, It 192 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 4: involves defending the strengths of the petro dollar, not so 193 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 4: much the strength but the role of the petro dollars 194 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 4: or in the America, in the international economy. Of course, 195 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 4: it involves Cuba. So it's a very big, big, big 196 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:15,320 Speaker 4: package of objectives that the administration has. 197 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 3: In my opinion, there's a lot going on. 198 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 2: It's it's sort of easy to justify it because of 199 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:24,839 Speaker 2: Maduro's alleged drug activity. I don't know what they would 200 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:27,839 Speaker 2: find as an excuse for Greenland. That would be a 201 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 2: little more difficulty. 202 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 4: It would be much more difficult. But if the Trump 203 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:37,680 Speaker 4: administration begins to make the argument that it is in 204 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:44,559 Speaker 4: the interest of the United States national security, I think 205 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 4: that they are determined. 206 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 5: To do it. 207 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 4: And here, of course, is the thinning of the of 208 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 4: the archet Eyes is opening up a northwest passage which 209 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:59,679 Speaker 4: will make Greenland strategically important to international trade and of 210 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:03,560 Speaker 4: course US in the case of Venezuela. Not only that 211 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:09,680 Speaker 4: not only the strategic position geographical, but also the rare elements, 212 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 4: the deposits of rare elements, which have become critical in 213 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 4: the twenty first century. 214 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:18,079 Speaker 2: We're going to take a quick break now and continue 215 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 2: with Consuela Cruz, and I'd love to know how you 216 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 2: feel about this action in Venezuela. Do you think it 217 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 2: is a net positive or is it a bad thing? 218 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 2: Six one seven, four thirty is WBZ. 219 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Boston's news radio. 220 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 2: Readiley for Dan tonight. How do you feel about the 221 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 2: action in Venezuela net good and not bad? I lean 222 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 2: towards that good, which is probably surprising for some of you. 223 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 2: Our guest, Consuela Cruz, is going through getting a little 224 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 2: deeper into the backstory, in details about things that we 225 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 2: may we lay folks may not have thought of. 226 00:14:57,640 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 3: So that's great. Thanks for being with us, Consuela. 227 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 4: Uh, you're welcome. 228 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 3: You know, it kind of makes. 229 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 2: Sense geopolitically for me because you have three major oil areas. 230 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 2: You have Middle East oil, you have China Russia oil, 231 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 2: and then you have America's, Canada and the United States. 232 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 2: And while I suppose mineral doctrine is a bit of 233 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 2: a stretch because that was originally designed to keep just 234 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 2: stop colonization from Europe, I suppose you could you could 235 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 2: somehow qualify this as a type of colonization or influence. 236 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 3: Might be enough. 237 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 2: But if you have putin coming in and doing deals 238 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 2: with Maduro, then that is coming into our backyard and 239 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 2: messing with something that's very important to us. So I 240 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 2: can see using the mineral doctrine back in. As you 241 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 2: may know, Beckham, I think it was may. 242 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 3: Maduro and. 243 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 2: Putin had a meeting about a pact to kind of 244 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 2: work together, so that might. 245 00:15:58,120 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 3: Have put a little time. 246 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 2: Around this thing. So actually I kind of get it. 247 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 2: And as I look at it, I see so many wins. 248 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 2: The majority of the people in Venezuela are happy. This 249 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 2: is oil that if we're in charge of the oil, 250 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 2: this is oil that Putin won't be able to get 251 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 2: to sell to fund his war against Ukraine. I see 252 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 2: all kinds of winds and the downside. I look for downsides. 253 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 2: You might have might have broken some rules. But on 254 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 2: the other hand, at some point the upside of something 255 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 2: is so huge, maybe you have to break rules. I 256 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 2: can't believe I'm saying that because I'm a rule follower. 257 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 2: But there's a rule. You don't break down somebody's door 258 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 2: and run into their house. But if the house is 259 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 2: on fire, then you can. And maybe Venezuela was kind 260 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 2: of on fire. There were so many upsides. I said, Wow, 261 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 2: what a gift this drug dangling? Is this drug thing. 262 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 2: It gives us an excuse to do this, to realign 263 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 2: or to properly aligned that they whole geopolitics. So do 264 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:06,679 Speaker 2: you see who's what is the downside that I'm missing? 265 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 4: Well? I truly believe that for the Trump administration, maybe 266 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 4: for Secretary of Ruby of this is not the case, 267 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:22,640 Speaker 4: because this is an American citizen of Cuban descent who 268 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 4: carries the weight of history on his shoulders. But for 269 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 4: everybody else, or mostly everybody else in the Trump administration, 270 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:37,959 Speaker 4: this is definitely about geopolitics and the fuel and minerals 271 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 4: right right now, consider it following. If that is the case, Bradley, 272 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:49,360 Speaker 4: do you know that the Trump administration, like the Biden administration, 273 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 4: gave Chevron a license to operate, allowed Chevron to operate 274 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:55,360 Speaker 4: its license in Venezuela. 275 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 2: I don't know who gave the licenses, but I know 276 00:17:57,840 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 2: that there were companies operating there yet. 277 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:04,399 Speaker 4: Yes, but Trump, the Trump administration said go ahead. The 278 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 4: Biden administration said go ahead. And if your interest is 279 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 4: really in having much more leverage over the petroleum industry 280 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:22,400 Speaker 4: in Venezuela, why not talk to the Venezuelans about more licenses. 281 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:27,399 Speaker 4: I think that this is beyond. This goes beyond petroleum. 282 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 3: If you're dealing with a. 283 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 2: Someone other than a Duro type of person, maybe you 284 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 2: could do that, but maybe exactly. 285 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 4: Exactly, but now that's not going to be Yeah, but 286 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 4: this is not going to be the case now remote control. 287 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 4: What's going to happen is that they will probably want. 288 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:51,160 Speaker 4: By the way, the American companies oil companies are very 289 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 4: reluctant to go back in, very reluctant. 290 00:18:55,520 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 3: And one of these because of the uncertainty, the. 291 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 4: The uncertainty, the lack of security, the huge investment. It's 292 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:09,919 Speaker 4: a lumpy investment. We're talking about billions to start the 293 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 4: time frame. They know how they've been to this, they've 294 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:19,159 Speaker 4: done this before, they know what the trajectory looks like, 295 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:23,919 Speaker 4: and it's a landline. So but at any rate, what 296 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:26,639 Speaker 4: they can do now, in the best of cases, is 297 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 4: if they can get the American companies to go in there. 298 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:34,639 Speaker 4: Right what probably what the Trump administration is going to want. 299 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:39,920 Speaker 4: There's something like what used to be in place prior 300 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:43,159 Speaker 4: to the nineteen seventies, which was a kind of fifty 301 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:47,160 Speaker 4: to fifty arrangement. You get fifty percent of the profits 302 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 4: and we get fifty percent of the profits, meaning fifty 303 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 4: percent for the companies and fifty percent for the state 304 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:56,120 Speaker 4: of anestheta everybody with now. 305 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 3: The state has, you know, a reason to make everything 306 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 3: run smooth. 307 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:05,440 Speaker 4: Then, well after between the nineties, late seventies and through 308 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 4: the eighties and upon until the moment that Travis came in, 309 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 4: and actually after Chavis came in, what you had was 310 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 4: the Venezuelans had another type of arrangement with the American 311 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 4: and European companies which didn't like the company is like, 312 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 4: we give you technical assistance, right, and we get all 313 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:30,680 Speaker 4: types of fees, and that was fine with them. I mean, 314 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 4: many of these companies make good money, became on fee 315 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 4: based contracts or joint ventures, which is what they had 316 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,199 Speaker 4: in the late seventies, eighties, nineties, I mean in the 317 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 4: eighties and nineties. And also even with Chavis. The problem 318 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:52,880 Speaker 4: is that Chavis became not only in authoritarian, but became greedy, right. 319 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 4: He wanted control, he wanted it all, and eventually squeezed 320 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 4: them out foreign companies, and that's when everything began to decline. 321 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 4: Without the expertise, without the investment. Chinese created the oil 322 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 4: sector like a cow. Then you could milk it without 323 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 4: feeding it though, without giving a grass, without reinvesting, and 324 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 4: he brought despair, and he and Malulo brought despair upon 325 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:27,879 Speaker 4: a misery, upon the upon the Venezuelan people. But I 326 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:30,159 Speaker 4: think that there was a better way to do this. 327 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 4: Of course, you know, we can always say that, right, 328 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:39,119 Speaker 4: We're not in charge of making decisions. We can always 329 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 4: sort of from an armchair, we can we can sort 330 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 4: of imagine better scenarios. But this is going to be 331 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 4: problematic broadly, unfortunately for the United States. 332 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 2: One downside is what appears to be complete lack of 333 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 2: a plan. I can't see how any any oil company 334 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 2: or any company of any kind would do any any 335 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 2: major investment until there's a stable government. And there's not 336 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 2: even a hint of that. And you mentioned that there 337 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 2: maybe thirty loyal to Moduro, including militia groups and other 338 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 2: similar groups, and those all have to be dealt with, 339 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 2: and that that's stabilizing thing. 340 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 5: How is that loyalty. 341 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 4: It's not only loyalty, these are also very corrupt groups. 342 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:35,160 Speaker 4: I mean everybody in Venezuela. Everybody is both a victim 343 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 4: and an accomplished There's no black and white, it's only gray. 344 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 4: Everybody mistrusts everybody else. Somebody has somebody else to fear. 345 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 4: This has been under construction for twenty five years. It's everywhere. 346 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 4: It's everywhere. You have also Colombian careers, okay near near Brazil. 347 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 4: You have organized crime. You have illicit mining, which is 348 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:08,439 Speaker 4: also in the hands of criminals, but also in the 349 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,679 Speaker 4: hands of the government and in the hands of the 350 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:15,479 Speaker 4: indirectly of private sector people. You have a private sector 351 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 4: in the issuel and it is completely entwined with the regime. 352 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:25,239 Speaker 4: Did they want to do it, No, they had to 353 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 4: do it to survive. But when you have an entire 354 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 4: country in a survival mode for twenty five years, what 355 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 4: you have is the creation of a deep web in which, 356 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 4: as I said before, everybody's a victim and everybody is 357 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 4: an accomplice. And so when we talk about the regime, 358 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 4: it's not the image that we have when you have 359 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,360 Speaker 4: the clashes on the street of the police beating up 360 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 4: on the organized opposition. That's only a part of the 361 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:59,640 Speaker 4: regime in action. The bigger part it's much more subtle 362 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 4: and dark. It's in the bedroom next door, in the office, 363 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:09,159 Speaker 4: with your colleagues, your friends, your neighbors. It's in the 364 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 4: swamps and the highlands. It's everywhere. The regime is everywhere, 365 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 4: and it's made up of people. And who are these people? 366 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:22,120 Speaker 4: The Venezuelans, And this is going to be very difficult 367 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 4: to control. 368 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 3: Okay, but I need to. 369 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,679 Speaker 2: Take a quick break now and hold that butt for 370 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 2: just a moment, if you could, Consuela, thank you so 371 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:30,920 Speaker 2: much more. 372 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 3: After this brief break on. 373 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:40,680 Speaker 1: WBZ with Dan Ray on WBZ Boston's news radio, we. 374 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:44,200 Speaker 2: Returned to our chat about the recent, very recent US 375 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:47,880 Speaker 2: action in Venezuela. And I'm very much interested to hear 376 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,880 Speaker 2: how you folks feel about this. Six one, seven, two, five, 377 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 2: four ten. It is the number to just let me know. 378 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 2: And we do have Adam and Boston. Adam, I understand 379 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 2: as a political sign as instructor, teacher, professor in Boston somewhere. 380 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:05,959 Speaker 3: Hi Adam, Hi, how are you doing? 381 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 5: Thank you for taking my call? 382 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,159 Speaker 3: Great. Where do you Where do you teach? Where do 383 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 3: you profess? 384 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 5: Well? I uh, I teach local science at Emmanuel College 385 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:21,680 Speaker 5: in Boston. It's in the Penaway area, and I teach 386 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 5: more American politics. I focus more on American politics, specifically 387 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:29,399 Speaker 5: political parties, American political history. So my comments you know, 388 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 5: on this will be more focused on that as opposed 389 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:41,880 Speaker 5: to more of the international ramifications of this event. Okay, well, 390 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 5: you know, I think I'm sorry I haven't been able 391 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 5: to listen to some of the early part of the shows. 392 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 5: I don't know if some of these comments were mentioned, 393 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:50,959 Speaker 5: but I guess so my concerns first, First of all, 394 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 5: I do want to say that obviously uh Maduro was 395 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 5: a terrible you know, ruler or leader of the Venezuela 396 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 5: pull really decimated that country and committed you know, numerous 397 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,399 Speaker 5: UN rights violations. So my thoughts are with many of 398 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:10,120 Speaker 5: the people living there and also in the diaspora, and 399 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 5: a lot of folks who couldn't get back to the 400 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 5: family and everything about his regime. At the same time, 401 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 5: my thoughts focus on the policy issues of what the 402 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 5: Trump administration has done here, and it speaks to the 403 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 5: larger historical trajectory of the expansion of executive power, which 404 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:29,679 Speaker 5: I think is something that we need to focus on, 405 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 5: especially since the Passage of the War Powers, acted in 406 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,159 Speaker 5: the early nineteen seventy nineteen seventy three in response to 407 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 5: President Nition's actions during the Vietnam War. It was designed 408 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 5: to enhance congressional authority over the executive especially in regard 409 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 5: to foreign policy, and over time, presidents of both parties 410 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,880 Speaker 5: have sort of expanded their power and Congress has been 411 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 5: reluctant to push back on that, except for a few 412 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,159 Speaker 5: instances here and there. But I think this speaks to 413 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 5: the larger seating of power that Congress has done over 414 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 5: the years, especially in relation to the last year of 415 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 5: the Trump of the second Trump administration. And so I 416 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:13,440 Speaker 5: think regardless of which party you end up supporting or presidents, 417 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,880 Speaker 5: it's one of these things that future presidents are now 418 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 5: going to feel in bolden to take certain action unless 419 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 5: there is some pushback from Congress. And that's one of 420 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:24,919 Speaker 5: the things I tend to think about in looking at 421 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 5: and this from this perspective. 422 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 2: I think they try to get around that by saying, 423 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,880 Speaker 2: this is not a or this is a police action. 424 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:39,119 Speaker 2: This is a criminal and he was committing his crimes upon, 425 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,920 Speaker 2: you know, visiting his crimes upon the United States, and 426 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,920 Speaker 2: as a result, we have the right to go get them. 427 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 2: And that's how they view that. I'm guessing that you 428 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:50,880 Speaker 2: disagree with. 429 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 5: That, well, I think you know, so some of the 430 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 5: states back to the issue with Panama nor Diega under 431 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 5: the George H. W. Bush administration, and William Barr who's 432 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:04,680 Speaker 5: a member of the Department of Justice at the time 433 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 5: when they're becoming Attorney General under President Trumen his first 434 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 5: administration wrote a memo that justified this action. That's saying 435 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 5: that the FBI and the President can take certain action 436 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 5: in this regard. So Jack Goldsmith, actually he has a 437 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 5: sub stack piece. He's a law professor. He was in 438 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 5: the Office of Legal Counsel under the George W. Bush 439 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 5: administration has talked about how in the domestic policy and 440 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 5: domestic law, it's a little bit if I understood him correctly, 441 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 5: it's a little bit nebulous, right that it could be 442 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 5: justified based on this Bar memo and legal reasoning back 443 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 5: under the George H. W. Bush administration. But internationally, this 444 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 5: is definitely in violation of the United States of u 445 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 5: named UN Charter and international law. So I think internationally, 446 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 5: then there's the domestic issues, So I think that that's 447 00:28:55,760 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 5: something to be mindful of, right, Yeah, I get. 448 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 2: The sense that the new normal is just do it. 449 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 2: No one's going to be able to do anything about it. 450 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 2: Just do it, ask permission, don't even ask permission later, 451 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 2: and not only with the party in charge now down 452 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 2: the road, the president's president just does what the president wants, seems. 453 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 5: So we'll, yeah, we'll see. I mean, I think I 454 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 5: saw a comment earlier by Senator Soon, the Majority leader 455 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 5: UH in the Senate, who seemed to accept the President 456 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 5: and Senator a secretary of Secretary Stay Rubio's rationale for 457 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 5: doing what he wanted to do and not informing Congress. 458 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 5: But obviously Democrats are more critical of this and saying 459 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 5: that the president did act in violation of the Constitution. 460 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 5: But again, as you said earlier, the President and Secretary 461 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 5: Rubio are justifying this is more of a legal, you know, 462 00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 5: law enforcement mechanism, which I think some people, especially if 463 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 5: you look at David French or Commas New York Times, 464 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 5: definitely a he was a JAG officer, Conservative Commas for 465 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 5: The Times. Jack Goldsmith also in the George W. Bush administration, 466 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 5: have pushed back and questioned the rationale under under that uh, 467 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 5: under you know, the offered by the Trump administration there. 468 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 5: So I think it's one of these things again that 469 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 5: you know, regardless of what party in, regardless of whether 470 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 5: you support the action, you know, the outcome of the 471 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 5: action in the short term. Obviously we can think about 472 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 5: long term rapplications. The question is is that you know, 473 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 5: if you you know, support it now, would you support 474 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 5: if it was a president of the other party and 475 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 5: vice versa. And I think that's something that people need 476 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 5: to be mindful of. 477 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 2: So that said, and admitting that total stepped on and 478 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 2: into the international law was stepped on. In your heart 479 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 2: of hearts, are still glad it happened. Be there, you know, 480 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 2: there's so much, so much good, so much upside. 481 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 3: The guy was a bad guy. He was a. 482 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 2: Allegedly pumping lots of bad drugs into our country. State 483 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 2: was a failed state, couldn't get there oil out of 484 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 2: the ground. They're going to have a big bump in 485 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 2: their economy. It keeps oil out of keeps them from 486 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 2: making a deal, at least for now. With putin, it 487 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 2: seems so important that maybe it's worth it to listen. 488 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 2: This is this doesn't sound like me, but maybe it's 489 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 2: worth it to listen to the other country's whine a 490 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 2: little bit. And that's so not me to say that, 491 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 2: but there you go. 492 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 5: Well, I mean, I think you know, I mean, obviously 493 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 5: it's good that he's gone, but it's in the short term, 494 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 5: we don't know what's going to happen here. You know, 495 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 5: some people are talking about the possibility that first of all, 496 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 5: Delsa Rodriguez has now been sworn in as president. She's 497 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,960 Speaker 5: the vice president, she is not a She has been 498 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 5: aligned very closely with the Maduro regime. Her brother is 499 00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 5: now the head of the National Assembly, if I'm not mistaken, 500 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 5: and they are very much in line and part of 501 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,440 Speaker 5: the Madure regime. And that's the issue that it's the 502 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 5: regime that's still in place. 503 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 2: She treas pretty quickly and quite a lot. Initially she 504 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 2: was putting this whole action down, and all of a 505 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 2: sudden she's like leaning a little more towards working with 506 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 2: us on it, because I guess she's a little nervous herself. 507 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 5: But well see, I mean, I think it's talk about 508 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 5: showing up the power, you know, because they're the the 509 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 5: you know, there's the other two people, head of the 510 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:32,320 Speaker 5: military Andterian Minister, who are also you know, they're they're 511 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 5: they're playing they're working together right now. But she's also 512 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 5: you know, shooter, she's also able to she's she speaks 513 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 5: I think French and English. She's got more education, if 514 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 5: I'm not mistaken, the Maduro has had. She's she's a 515 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 5: shrewd politician, if you will. And so we'll see how 516 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 5: this plays out. But some people worry that there'll be 517 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 5: more oppressive action within the country and it might not 518 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 5: necessarily work out beneficially for the people of Venezuela in 519 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 5: the short term or the long run. And the fact 520 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 5: that you also have the Trump administration who seemed to 521 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 5: have basically thrown the opposition under the bus right saying 522 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:12,040 Speaker 5: that Maria Karina Machado doesn't have the respect of the population. 523 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 5: And the question is, and the argument is, if it 524 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 5: was about, you know, bringing democracy back to the country, 525 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 5: then why not have the you know what, many international 526 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:29,520 Speaker 5: observers believe, the legitimate, you know, the opposition that won 527 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 5: the election come back in or hold elections. Now. Obviously, 528 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 5: Secretary of Rubio was on the morning shows yesterday saying 529 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 5: that it might be too early, that they do want 530 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 5: to have elections at some point. But the question is 531 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 5: is who's running Venezuela. And if President Trump is saying 532 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 5: that he's running the country, that the United States run 533 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 5: the country, that's a violation of international law. 534 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 2: Right, he really should back off on that, and actually 535 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 2: Rubio was kind of backpedaling on that statement, which was smart. 536 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 3: Adam, thank you so much for the great gull Thank you. 537 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 2: Okay, I want to hear what our Consuelo thinks about 538 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 2: what the caller Adams said after this on WBZ. 539 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 1: You're on Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Boston's 540 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 1: news Radio. 541 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 2: Love to hear what you feel about the US action 542 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 2: in Venezuela six one seven for ten thirty. 543 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,200 Speaker 3: Great call from caller Adam Adam in Boston. 544 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 2: Any comment two things, any comments on what he spoke 545 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:31,239 Speaker 2: about or if not, let's move to Greenland. President, Well, 546 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:35,840 Speaker 2: one downside of the extremely successful nature of this mission, 547 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 2: no one hurt, like one helicopter, barely dented. Type of 548 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 2: situation that we are now in Bolden to really go to, 549 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,239 Speaker 2: at least the President seems in Bolden to go all 550 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:56,320 Speaker 2: the way, not not only Colomne to South Central America, Cuba, 551 00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 2: but Greenland, ge whiz that belongs to Denmark. Do you 552 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:06,360 Speaker 2: really think that it would go that far? Wouldn't we 553 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,759 Speaker 2: be at war with Denmark. It's just a territory, but 554 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,600 Speaker 2: it's theirs I don't see how we justify that. 555 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 4: First of all, the color was very, very insightful. I 556 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 4: agreed with many of the things he said. Do you 557 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:25,320 Speaker 4: know that some of the debates going on in Canada 558 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 4: right now are about how to put together a whole 559 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:38,360 Speaker 4: country defense system From the Americans, the Europeans are alarmed. 560 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 4: Trump has said that in a couple of months he 561 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:48,319 Speaker 4: will turn to billion and the Monroe Doctrine. If it 562 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,240 Speaker 4: has to be reworked yet again, it will right now, 563 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,440 Speaker 4: and it will be now an emphasis not only on 564 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 4: it will come back more to its original right, to 565 00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:03,440 Speaker 4: its original formula, which is against the imperial powers in 566 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:07,239 Speaker 4: Europe in the nineteenth century, except that now it will 567 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:12,279 Speaker 4: be against our allies in Europe. Let's not forget that 568 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:17,719 Speaker 4: Jay Devans went to Germany and lectured to Germans on 569 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:23,360 Speaker 4: how they are putting Western civilization in peril, and how 570 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:28,720 Speaker 4: he and Musque have advocated in favor of the hard 571 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 4: right being party alternative for Germany, which is basically a 572 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:40,920 Speaker 4: kind of Nazisque party. So this is what the United States, 573 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:44,600 Speaker 4: what the American people have to understand, is that the 574 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:48,120 Speaker 4: world is changing before our lives in a very radical way. 575 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 4: And that what used to be black is white, and 576 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:56,279 Speaker 4: used to be white is black. There is absolutely no 577 00:36:56,440 --> 00:37:00,759 Speaker 4: concern on the part of President Trump for democracy Venezuela. 578 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:05,759 Speaker 4: And while Secretary of Rubia wants to imagine that one day, 579 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:09,799 Speaker 4: maybe five six years down the road, democracy will be 580 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 4: reinstated in Venezuela, right now, that is not his concern either. 581 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:20,680 Speaker 4: He wavers between making this a case about law enforcement 582 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:25,480 Speaker 4: and a case about security. He talks one moment about 583 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 4: Russia and China in the Western Hemisphere, and the next 584 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 4: he talks about market trafficking. So this is what has 585 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:38,239 Speaker 4: to be remembered, is that the lesson learned for this 586 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:43,239 Speaker 4: administration is that regime kings does not work, and that 587 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,279 Speaker 4: they have a huge portion of the mega base that 588 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:50,719 Speaker 4: does not want foreign involvement. So what they need to 589 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:56,399 Speaker 4: do is remote control the whole situation as best they 590 00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 4: can hopefully and also emphasize to the American public. But 591 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:04,439 Speaker 4: this is not about regime change, but this is about 592 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:05,640 Speaker 4: America first. 593 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:09,200 Speaker 3: Okay, go ahead, finish up. We have just a you know, 594 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 3: thirty thirty. 595 00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:14,520 Speaker 4: Seconds, yes, and Greenland. We'll have to sit in one 596 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:19,600 Speaker 4: way or another, all less unless change goes five ways 597 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 4: in Venezuela, which they could sooner. 598 00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:25,440 Speaker 3: That's right, yes, exactly, fantastic. 599 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for being part of the show, 600 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:31,319 Speaker 2: being part of Night Side, for all this time, taking 601 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:33,800 Speaker 2: your time out. I really appreciate your insights. Thank you, 602 00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:35,000 Speaker 2: Consuela Cruz. 603 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:36,080 Speaker 4: Oh, it's my pleasure. 604 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:37,880 Speaker 3: Thank you, of course. 605 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:40,839 Speaker 2: And we're going to continue with this in the next 606 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:42,600 Speaker 2: hour and we'll get to Dot and Medford and Bob 607 00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:43,240 Speaker 2: in Rhode Island. 608 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:45,760 Speaker 3: Also, for those of you who are. 609 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,480 Speaker 2: You know, military hardware geeks, I'll let you know what 610 00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,960 Speaker 2: was actually used and what it was used for. And 611 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,240 Speaker 2: I guess yeah, I would love to hear your opinions. 612 00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,120 Speaker 2: I see folks are a little more comfortable sharing their 613 00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:02,480 Speaker 2: opinion now on whether this is a net gain, a 614 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:03,360 Speaker 2: net good thing. 615 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:05,239 Speaker 4: Or not. 616 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:10,240 Speaker 2: And our guest did mention that Canada is putting together 617 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,880 Speaker 2: a plan to defend their country against the United States. 618 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 2: I don't know if you knew this. Canada has twice 619 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,799 Speaker 2: more than twice the other reserves that we do. Yeah, 620 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:25,160 Speaker 2: and they're kind of a soft target, I mean, relatively speaking, 621 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:28,520 Speaker 2: but imagine our lives if we went to war with Canada. 622 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:35,560 Speaker 3: We're pretty close to Canada here, in Boston. What time 623 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:38,960 Speaker 3: will we out. We're around fifty eight ten. Okay, good. 624 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:42,360 Speaker 2: So we're looking for Dot and Bob after this. And 625 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,840 Speaker 2: we do have another wonderful guest on this subject with 626 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:46,680 Speaker 2: a different take. 627 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,719 Speaker 3: Perhaps that's coming up on Deputy BZ. 628 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:51,960 Speaker 2: Remember you can listen even if you don't have a 629 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:55,120 Speaker 2: radio on the iHeartRadio app. So you're driving along, go 630 00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:57,439 Speaker 2: in the house, you want to continue to listen, try 631 00:39:57,560 --> 00:39:59,479 Speaker 2: the iHeartRadio app. 632 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:00,759 Speaker 5: You be is it