1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: It's Nike Side with Dan Ray on WBS Boxton's Radio. 2 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 2: Here you Go is WBS and it is Nightside with 3 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 2: Dan Ray. Bradley J for Dan, Richard Pickering's our guests, 4 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 2: and we have a call from Hannah and Steve in Chatham. 5 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:18,079 Speaker 2: I think I believe this is going to be interesting. 6 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 2: I will tie in beautifully because Richard knows them and 7 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:27,640 Speaker 2: they're part of the You just watch and see what happens. Jay, 8 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 2: Can you fire up Hannah and Steve as I am 9 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 2: not able to from my screen, Hannah, are you there? 10 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 2: Thank you? Hannah and Steve? How do you do? You're 11 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:41,839 Speaker 2: on WBZ. Hello, Hello there to the both of you. 12 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:49,559 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for your wonderful conversation tonight. It's 13 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:52,479 Speaker 3: a thrill to listen and an honor. 14 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 2: So tell me about how you know Richard and what 15 00:00:56,720 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 2: you're you know common interest in Thanksgiving and and the 16 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 2: area is. 17 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:05,759 Speaker 3: Oh all right? 18 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: Well. 19 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 3: I have been blessed to work with Richards on the 20 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 3: second edition of my children's book called The Mayflower Mouse, 21 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 3: and Dear Richard took time and efforts to come over 22 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:23,320 Speaker 3: as my editor and to go through it line by 23 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:26,319 Speaker 3: line to make sure that we were giving the reader 24 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 3: an accurate true stories while making it fun with the 25 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 3: mouse Uncle Sam as the narrator. 26 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:38,840 Speaker 2: So that you might as well tell us the story 27 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:40,399 Speaker 2: of the mouse on the on the may floor. 28 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 3: I need to know now, all right, Well, we wanted 29 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 3: to help the children learn the true story and make 30 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 3: it fun. And so he is observing what goes on 31 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 3: board the ship as well. I was on Cape Cod 32 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 3: and Plymouth, so I did my research quite a bit 33 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 3: at the Capitol and the library and looking at William 34 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 3: Bradford's journal so I would get the facts right. And 35 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 3: then with Richard's help and exploring cape Cod myself and Plymouth, 36 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 3: we could come out with a beautiful story chronological order 37 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 3: and have fun with this mouse and have it come 38 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 3: alive and the children just love it. 39 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 2: I would imagine the point of view of a mouse 40 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 2: on the mayflower would be significantly different than the point 41 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 2: of view of the humans. Did you and did you 42 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 2: figure that in when you did the book about the mouse? 43 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 2: Or did the mouse have kind of the same point 44 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 2: of view as a human would have. I mean the 45 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 2: mouse would just want all the humans to go away 46 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 2: to eat everything. No, he is a very They didn't 47 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 2: have the same interest. 48 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 3: It actually well, he was looking, of course for food, 49 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:18,519 Speaker 3: but he experiences all the intriguing events that go on 50 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 3: board and also in the plantation their challenges. So it's 51 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 3: not watered down for children. It's the true story and 52 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 3: it's very exciting and the story that all Americans should know. 53 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 3: And so today we thought, well, we have eight adults 54 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 3: coming and two children, and we wanted to make it fun. 55 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 3: So Steve and I made up a game called who 56 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 3: am I? Clues to Famous friends in sixteen twenty and 57 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 3: so we wanted we wanted them to see that the 58 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 3: Pilgrims are our friends, because if they paved the way 59 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 3: for us to their courage and faith and vision, we 60 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 3: have the country that we have today. They paved the way, 61 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 3: they were just stepping stone. So we came up with 62 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:18,039 Speaker 3: twelve questions who am I? And we gave one clue 63 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 3: and then opened it up to everybody who could answer. 64 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 2: First, I'll tell you what before you go, give us 65 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 2: one question, and then we'll see if anybody can get it. 66 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 2: And I will make this an open book exam. You 67 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 2: can look it up, you can use you can use 68 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:34,720 Speaker 2: your computer. So give us one question, who am I 69 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 2: related to the Mayflower and the mouse and all that 70 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 2: time period. Go ahead, I'm ready for the question. 71 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 3: This was the first run. Okay, I'm governor of put 72 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 3: this plantation for thirty years. 73 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:52,039 Speaker 2: That's it? 74 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 3: Who am I? 75 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 2: Okay? Very good, let's se if someone can get that. 76 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 2: I appreciate it. Jake, can we say goodbye to Hannah 77 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:01,599 Speaker 2: and Steve? Thank you and I again? Because my regular 78 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 2: squeen isn't working that Jay has to do that manually. 79 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 2: All right, Well, I'm sure that Richard knows. We won't 80 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:12,599 Speaker 2: ask him. I was governor of Plymouth. What was the 81 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 2: actual governor of Plymouth Plantation? Colony? Colony? Okay? Six one, seven, two, five, four, ten, thirty, 82 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 2: No prize, just another of boy or girl there if 83 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 2: you get that right? 84 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 4: All right? 85 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:31,840 Speaker 2: I think I asked this. I mentioned I was going 86 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:33,719 Speaker 2: to talk about it. Can you give us an idea 87 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:40,839 Speaker 2: of how deeply controlled the everybody, well most people were, 88 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:45,039 Speaker 2: or a lot of people were, by the religion back 89 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 2: in the day, How it snuck its way into everything 90 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:54,160 Speaker 2: from the moment you woke up to most decisions decisions 91 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 2: you made during the day. Your religion. Now, there were 92 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 2: of course different degrees in that. Here's build etc. But 93 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 2: I guess for this example, go with the most extreme, Like, 94 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 2: for one thing, you had to make this horrific journey 95 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 2: because of your religion. You will risk death fifty to 96 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 2: fifty shot at not surviving because of your religion. Right there, 97 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:21,839 Speaker 2: that's a departure. Can you give us an idea of 98 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 2: other ways when that religion insinuated itself into your daily life? 99 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:29,839 Speaker 4: And for people who are particularly interested in that subject, 100 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 4: if they go to our website www dot pli m 101 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:40,479 Speaker 4: ot dot org, We've been releasing a series of short 102 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 4: documentaries that were funded by the Lily Endowment on the 103 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 4: role of religion in Plymouth Colony. Oh and there are 104 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 4: three films that we directed specifically at seventh and eighth 105 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 4: grade audiences that are Protestant Reformation English Reformation. And then 106 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 4: what's the difference between a pilgrim, a Puritan, and a separatist? 107 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:03,919 Speaker 2: That people to use? What is it? I might as 108 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 2: well ask this, So, what is the difference between a 109 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 2: pilgrim and a separatist? 110 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 4: The pilgrims are or I'm confusing it. What's the difference 111 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 4: between an Anglican, a Puritan and a separatist? Okay, the 112 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 4: Anglicans are the members of the Church of England who 113 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 4: find no trouble with it whatsoever. 114 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 2: And the Church of England started by Henry the Eight yes, 115 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 2: because he wanted to get divorced, Yes, okay. 116 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 4: And then the Puritans are those who found there was 117 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 4: too much Catholicism remaining in that church created by Henry. 118 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 4: They wanted a purely Protestant church, and so was. 119 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 2: The beef with the Catholic way. Why do they want 120 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 2: to extricate themselves from that? 121 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 4: Entirely to oversimplify the distinction for reform Christians, for Puritans 122 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,679 Speaker 4: and separatists is that the center of worship is the 123 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 4: pulpit and the Word of God and listening to sermons. 124 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 4: And for those that are Anglicans, it's the altar and 125 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 4: the rituals that go on of the Lord's Supper and 126 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 4: other Christian rituals built around the altar. So you have 127 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 4: one that's ritual based and then one that's based in 128 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 4: the Word. 129 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 2: Okay. 130 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 4: And so ultimately the separatists are saying, no one's listening 131 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 4: to us about these reforms we want to make, so 132 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,440 Speaker 4: we've just got to leave. We've got to break. We 133 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 4: can't stay with this thing. We perceive as unclean. So 134 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:38,319 Speaker 4: you have the Anglicans who are like, this is great, 135 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 4: Puritans didn't go far enough, and the Separatists saying, we tried, 136 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 4: so we're leaving. 137 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 2: One reason people are super involved in our religion is 138 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 2: because there's so much unknown. The only explanation for anything 139 00:08:53,559 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 2: is religion. And so the further goo, further back you, oh, 140 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 2: the less folks know. And you would assume that it 141 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 2: would be the case that the further back you go, 142 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 2: people would be more religious in the year one thousand, 143 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 2: in the year five hundred. Is that the case? No? 144 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 2: Or was there a yeah? Counterintuitively, did it somehow swell 145 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 2: up in the early sixteen hundreds? And why did it 146 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 2: swell up? 147 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 4: Then the printing press, just as we are the age 148 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 4: of the internet and the cell phone. 149 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 2: So was the printing press like fifteen eighty or something 150 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 2: like that. 151 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, And so you have by the end of the 152 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 4: sixth by the end of the seventeenth century, there are 153 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 4: now millions of books available. So the ability to read 154 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 4: the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament in vernacular language begins. 155 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:55,959 Speaker 4: The whole process of engaging with deep reading of Judeo Christian, 156 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 4: Abrahamic tradition scriptures did. 157 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:00,559 Speaker 2: Missionary behavior must must have been as soon as you 158 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 2: had a book out there, because you could take that 159 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:04,319 Speaker 2: book to somebody and try to convert them. 160 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 4: Yes, and Plymouth played a very slow game in its 161 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 4: attempt to convert the Native people that you can see 162 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 4: from very early on. Edward Winslow in particular is having 163 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 4: deep conversations with Indigenous people in the region. And I 164 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 4: think because two decades later he will be deeply involved 165 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 4: with the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel to 166 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:36,359 Speaker 4: the Indians. That's a London based group attempting the conversion 167 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 4: of here in Massachusetts. You can see him trying to 168 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 4: figure out the culture in order to maximize the effectiveness 169 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 4: of conversion. 170 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 2: That's interesting. I heard of professor talking about the idea 171 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 2: that conversion of the Natives would be seen as success 172 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 2: at home and back in England and make it more 173 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 2: likely that they would be continued support from back home. 174 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 2: That's a case. Yes, well, yeah, okay, did they tread 175 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 2: lightly at first? I mean you probably told me and 176 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 2: I'm just missing it, or did they go right in 177 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 2: and heavy trying to convert the Native America? 178 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 4: It becomes more concerted after the sixteen thirties and it 179 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 4: becomes increasingly intrusive in the lives of Native people. 180 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 2: Did they have success? Was it? How was it taken? 181 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 2: How was it? How was it handled? 182 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 4: It divided divided Native families, It divided Native communities. For 183 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 4: some there was true conversion, for others there was enforced conversion, 184 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 4: horrific spiritual damage. 185 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 2: And it taken thousands of years of tradition and deep, 186 00:11:55,679 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 2: bone deep belief and taking some was a family and 187 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 2: pushing them away from that thereby dividing families. Yeah, that 188 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 2: couldn't have been great. We need to take a break 189 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 2: and then I want to do the whole Thanksgiving thing 190 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 2: and talk as we always watched it is Thanksgiving. I 191 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 2: always love hearing it. After this on w. 192 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 1: BC, It's Night Side with Dan Ray on Boston's news radio. 193 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 2: Well, since we are here with mister Thanksgiving, let's tell 194 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 2: a real story of Thanksgiving. The settlers off you will 195 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 2: call them, that they have been here, they struggled, and 196 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 2: finally they made it. They kind of made it almost 197 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 2: a year, right quickly before you get to that, what 198 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 2: were the struggles that they made it through? Like, give 199 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:54,959 Speaker 2: me the super cliff notes on the struggles so we 200 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 2: can get to dinner. 201 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:59,319 Speaker 4: The half of the colony dying within two and a 202 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:03,679 Speaker 4: half months, and so there are only fifty two english men, 203 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 4: women and children surviving into the first spring, and half 204 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 4: of those fifty two are under the age of sixteen 205 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 4: years old, so they're incredibly. 206 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 2: Fifty only twenty five adults, yeah, sort of, twelve men 207 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 2: and twelve women. 208 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 4: No, there are four adult married women that survive. There 209 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 4: is another unnamed adult woman that survives. There are about 210 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 4: twenty men. 211 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 2: And so you know the survival and let they had 212 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 2: to be replenished. They could never have propagated enough to 213 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 2: survive on their own if they hadn't been replenished by 214 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 2: more people. 215 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 4: Other ships arrive within a year. The Fortune arrives almost 216 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 4: to the day of Mayflower's original arrival, and then two 217 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 4: years later, the Anne and the James arrive in the 218 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 4: summer of sixteen twenty three. 219 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 2: So they just eke it through a really cold winter, 220 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 2: exceptionally cold winter, and then spring comes and they're able 221 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 2: to plant some things because the natives told them how 222 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 2: to do it and to how to plant it with 223 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 2: fish myrtilize it, and they must have just given them 224 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,079 Speaker 2: they must have just given them a bunch of food. 225 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 4: No, I don't know that the English arrived supplied for 226 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 4: a year's time. So there is this classic conception that 227 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 4: the reason so many women died as they were giving 228 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 4: their food to their children, when it's probably exposure and 229 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 4: infection and not malnutrition, not starvation, because they were mindful 230 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 4: of knowing we're going to have to live from supply 231 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 4: for a year before any harvest, whether an English grain 232 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 4: or if we find these native grains. But the fact 233 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 4: that the Wampaog were willing to share their technology, ancient 234 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 4: technology of corn beans and squash growing to together is 235 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 4: huge and one of the things that the archaeology is 236 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 4: showing us is the proximity of Wampanog families living with 237 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 4: the English very early on. The classic story is to 238 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 4: Squantum taught them how to plant corn beans and squash together, 239 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 4: when probably it's the families that are around the English 240 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 4: settlements watching the women, and to Squantum is actually translating 241 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 4: for the English what the women are doing, and that 242 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 4: they're watching the native women work in the cornfields that 243 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 4: are just on the other side of town Brook. And 244 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 4: so now that's bringing women into the story where before 245 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 4: the early years of Plymouth were always thought to be 246 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 4: the Plymouth colonists interacting with native men, not with native families. 247 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 2: Interesting, that's key. That's another dissertation, doctoral dissertation possible, and 248 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 2: that's the work that's being done by David Landon and 249 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 2: Krista barana UMass Boston, because they've done the major archaeology 250 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 2: in Plymouth. In terms of stress Temper's flair. You know, 251 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 2: it takes a special breed of person to be in 252 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 2: a submarine. You're close together on really difficult conditions. Is 253 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 2: there any evidence that the remaining adults twenty five adults 254 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 2: suffered this kind of stress. Yes, and as a result 255 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 2: fought among themselves. Yes. 256 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 4: That the English and this period are extremely litigious. They 257 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 4: are easily angered, easily think they've been offended. And so 258 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 4: the government in early Plymouth was very smart that they 259 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 4: decided we're going to do everything we can to give 260 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 4: no one an excuse of accusing anyone else of favoritism. 261 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 4: So the entire hill is put on a grid. Everybody's 262 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 4: land is gotten by casting of lots well, and it's 263 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 4: exactly the same sense. So you're getting where your grid 264 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 4: falls on the street. Is done completely by pulling something 265 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 4: out of a hat in that fashion, so no one 266 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 4: can say, oh, he got the better land, and if 267 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 4: they did, it. 268 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 2: Was strictly bad luck. Right. Not all the land was 269 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,919 Speaker 2: equally good, right. Wow. Yeah. 270 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:40,640 Speaker 4: And when they eventually divide up the land for private 271 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 4: property up and down the coast, the surveyors are told, 272 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 4: you better make sure every one of these twenty acres 273 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 4: is good because it could end up in your hands 274 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:54,919 Speaker 4: because you're not going to be able to isolate it 275 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 4: for yourself. And so they were always trying to put 276 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 4: down any complaint being made of favoritism or priority. 277 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 2: All right, now going to some pretty good detail about 278 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:11,440 Speaker 2: you've survived this first most of this first year, how 279 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 2: much of the story is true? Give us the give 280 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:17,879 Speaker 2: us the real Thanksgiving story as you do each Thanksgiving. 281 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's kind of impossible to give a real story 282 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 4: based on the evidence that we have. There's only one 283 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 4: eyewitness account, and it's Edward Winslow's letter from December sixteen 284 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:34,439 Speaker 4: twenty one. Bradford never writes about this event called the 285 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:40,679 Speaker 4: First Thanksgiving. Governor Bradford just generically describes the fall of 286 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:44,400 Speaker 4: that year, the autumn of sixteen twenty one, and Bradford's 287 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:49,680 Speaker 4: letter maybe only has two or three sentences about the event, 288 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 4: so our details are suppositions. Really, we know that there 289 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 4: there are the English families there. We know that the 290 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 4: hi Messas at Usamkuin arrives with ninety men. In Edward 291 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 4: Winslow it says the great King came amongst us with 292 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:11,879 Speaker 4: his ninety men Comma amongst others. 293 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 2: Comma. 294 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 4: Does that mean there are other native communities there, because 295 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 4: we know in one instance there's an occasion when there 296 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 4: are nine Sachems at Plymouth. So it could be that 297 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:31,400 Speaker 4: the numbers of indigenous men and possibly families are dwarfing 298 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:34,480 Speaker 4: the numbers of the English at this event, which we 299 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:35,439 Speaker 4: just don't know. 300 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 2: Another thing, I'm always surprised by us. They could just 301 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:43,880 Speaker 2: go out and get enough game for a giant three 302 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:46,439 Speaker 2: day feast, yes, like in a few hours. Yes, how 303 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 2: how many animals? How much game was there? Yes, the 304 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 2: forest must have just been packed with them. 305 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:58,200 Speaker 4: And early on the English are writing about the skies 306 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:03,119 Speaker 4: being darkened by the birds as they were migrating. But 307 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:07,159 Speaker 4: at the end of life Governor Bradford comments on how 308 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 4: that has changed and that the resources when they arrive 309 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 4: are dramatically different after decades of a rising English population, 310 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 4: because between sixteen thirty and sixteen forty two you've got 311 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 4: New England's population of English people jumping from three hundred 312 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 4: in Plymouth, maybe one hundred and fifty in early Salem, 313 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 4: to now overnight with John Winthrop's lead arriving, there are 314 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:42,919 Speaker 4: an additional seventeen hundred people, and in the next twenty 315 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 4: twelve years they're going to be eighteen to twenty five 316 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 4: thousand people. 317 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 2: Right, Oh, we should probably answer that trivia question that 318 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:57,639 Speaker 2: was presented by the folks from Chatham. Yeah, and the 319 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 2: question was who was the governor of Plymouth Plantation, if 320 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 2: you will for the first four years eight four years 321 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 2: was Bradford. 322 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 4: For roughly forty years forty years Bradford, William Bradford yep. 323 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:12,680 Speaker 2: And prior to him was Carver. Yes, right. 324 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 4: Carver dies during the the corn planting in April sixth 325 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:21,880 Speaker 4: in April or May sixteen twenty one. 326 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 2: So you mentioned that there was you couldn't communicate during 327 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 2: this first Thanksgiving the two sides, the two groups couldn't 328 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 2: communicate with each other well through language. But there are 329 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 2: certain activities that you mentioned that sports is and it 330 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 2: is the you know, international, it's an international I shouldn't 331 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 2: say international, but it's a language exactly. And military exercises 332 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 2: also our language. Yep. 333 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 4: And there as we told that story earlier of the 334 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 4: nonverbal message of the women, children and elderly being a 335 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 4: board mayflower. At one point during the course of their 336 00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:01,680 Speaker 4: time together, massissotict usamique and sends out his men and 337 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:06,640 Speaker 4: they return with five bucks of venison, and those that 338 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 4: gift of deer meat is given to key households in Plymouth. 339 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:17,399 Speaker 4: Did the native people know that for English people that 340 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 4: was the meat you always wanted that. At a wedding, 341 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:25,680 Speaker 4: at a baptism, funeral feast, you wanted that meat. 342 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 2: So they thought that was you know, caviar to them. Yes, 343 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 2: and maybe the natives thought it was hamburger. Yeah. 344 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 4: They give those interesting those gifts that the English people 345 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 4: might be looking and thinking, wow, these these are a 346 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 4: gentle people, These are a civil people. 347 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 2: And there are a lot of other ways to communicate. 348 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,359 Speaker 2: You can point to the seat beside you and have 349 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:51,159 Speaker 2: a big steaming bowl of porridge or whatever and invite 350 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:52,919 Speaker 2: the person to sit down. There are all kinds of 351 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 2: nonverbal friendly cues the business about smoking the pipe? Is 352 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 2: that a pipe dream? Is that made up? Was that 353 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 2: a later Western thing only? Or did you was smoking 354 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 2: passing around some sort of pipe? Was that a message 355 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:14,120 Speaker 2: of friendship? To be truthful, I don't know. Yeah, yeah, 356 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 2: I know both were smoking and drinking cultures in that 357 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 2: Native people may refer to it as smoking, but the 358 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,239 Speaker 2: English referred to it as drinking because they felt they 359 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 2: were drinking in the fume interesting, so they were taking 360 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 2: it in through the mouth, but the English were shooting 361 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 2: it out through the nose. Did the settlers have any alcohol? Yes, 362 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 2: after a while, I mean didn't they run out? Do 363 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 2: they know how to make more? Yes? Yeah. 364 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 4: It's that the barley didn't grow well in New England, 365 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:52,439 Speaker 4: so any housewife would have known her brewing. But the 366 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:56,360 Speaker 4: barley doesn't well, doesn't do well in New England. And 367 00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 4: in sixteen forty four, William Bruce, who's the ruling elder 368 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,199 Speaker 4: of the congregation, dies in is I think he's eighty 369 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 4: and Bradford writes a short biography of this man who 370 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 4: was his mentor. But then he goes on to see 371 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 4: we're all living to be so old, and can you 372 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 4: believe we're just drinking water. 373 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 2: Because for that usually that's poison. Yeah, yeah, Okay, it's 374 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 2: eleven thirty one plus, So we'll take a break and 375 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,199 Speaker 2: we're going to find out next why this is a 376 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:32,640 Speaker 2: super duper special Thanksgiving for Richard Picker. There's a big deal, 377 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:37,360 Speaker 2: huge changes in his life and probably never expected them. 378 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,440 Speaker 2: And the story is a heartwarming, wonderful story, and we'll 379 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,120 Speaker 2: share that with you next on this Thanksgiving on w 380 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 2: b Z. 381 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:51,639 Speaker 1: Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Boston's news radio. 382 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 2: Just a half an hour ago on the Night Side. 383 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 2: The time flies when you have a guest like Richard Pickering, 384 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,919 Speaker 2: who is the deputy director of the Plymouth Patuxi Museums. 385 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 2: As well as the senior story, it's so fun to 386 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:06,879 Speaker 2: listen to the to the real granular history of our 387 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:11,119 Speaker 2: our corner of New England, which is, let's face it, 388 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 2: Thanksgiving headquarters. Now I'm doing it quite a while while 389 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 2: Richard now going on ten years something like that. Yep. Anyway, 390 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,920 Speaker 2: this news you're about to just Thanksgiving happiness that you're 391 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 2: about to bestow on us, share with us. It's probably 392 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 2: one of the biggest things that ever happened in your life. 393 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 2: Very happy story and something you're giving big thanks for. 394 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:39,880 Speaker 2: I guess, and I'm going to just leave you to 395 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:44,120 Speaker 2: it because you will tell the story best well, unencumbered 396 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 2: with my questions. 397 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 4: I live in a very small town on Cape Cod. 398 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,160 Speaker 4: I go to Dunkin Donuts in the morning to work 399 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 4: on my book. Everybody knows I work at Plymouth PA 400 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:57,360 Speaker 4: Tuxit Museums. And one morning the manager Ash walks over 401 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 4: and she says, Richard, you're never going to believe what happened. 402 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 4: She had picked up Jordanian workers for the summer from 403 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 4: the Logan bus and Max gets in her passenger seat 404 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 4: and says, well, I took this job so I could 405 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 4: go to Plymouth PA Texi Museums. And Ash said, wait 406 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 4: what wait what? So? 407 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 2: Max is one of the Jordania workers who took a 408 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 2: job because he wanted to work. He wanted to visit, 409 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 2: to visit the museum, and that was a way to 410 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 2: do it, to work there to be close to the museum. 411 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:31,480 Speaker 2: I see, So he took a job just to be 412 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:35,399 Speaker 2: close to the museum. Yep, he was in Jordan and 413 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:40,639 Speaker 2: he somehow heard of your museum and took a job 414 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:45,359 Speaker 2: in New England in Massachusetts and near the museum, to 415 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,360 Speaker 2: be near enough to the museum to visit it. 416 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 4: And Ash said, I did a double take and then 417 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:55,200 Speaker 4: didn't say anything. In my head, I'm thinking, Oh, there's 418 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 4: going to be a guy you're going to love to meet. 419 00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:58,919 Speaker 2: Max. Okay. 420 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:03,880 Speaker 4: So turns out he studied Bradford at university. He had 421 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:08,199 Speaker 4: a professor of English who loved colonial literature, and he 422 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 4: just wanted to see the sites related to the Pilgrims 423 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 4: in the Wampanogue. 424 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:15,400 Speaker 2: So how did you, must have asked? How he took 425 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,400 Speaker 2: that direction? There are a million directions to go as 426 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,200 Speaker 2: a young Jordanian. Why that direction? Was it a love 427 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,440 Speaker 2: for America? And this is the most American as American 428 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 2: as you can get. Is it something like that? 429 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 4: A love of literature? 430 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:29,400 Speaker 2: Literature? 431 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 4: It turned into just a love of Massachusetts, Massachusetts. He 432 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,360 Speaker 4: the first day I met Max, I walked in with 433 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:44,199 Speaker 4: a facsimile of Governor Bradford's manuscript as a present for 434 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 4: him and passes to the museum, and he lit up. 435 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:55,400 Speaker 4: He came to visit. The museum staff loved him. And 436 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:59,119 Speaker 4: this year we took out the Mayflower on a philanthropic 437 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,679 Speaker 4: sale because we had to recertify for the Coastguard, and 438 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 4: that is an expensive undertaking. So we decided to have 439 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:12,119 Speaker 4: a five thousand dollars a ticket philanthropic sale to pay 440 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 4: for that expense and recover the lost ticket revenue. I 441 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 4: get a call from a friend of the museum in 442 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 4: California and she says, Richard, I love Max's story. I 443 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 4: want that boy on the ship. And she makes a 444 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:29,879 Speaker 4: gift in Max's honor. And so now there's this twenty 445 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:35,879 Speaker 4: one year old man from Jordan sailing aboard Mayflower. Captain 446 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 4: wit Perry says, you want to work some ropes with us? 447 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 2: And so now. 448 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 4: Max is working on the show the crew. He told 449 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:45,960 Speaker 4: his mom what he was going to do, and he 450 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 4: said his mom broke down and started crying and said, 451 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 4: my son's going to be making history. 452 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 2: True. 453 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 4: And so as we were walking back to my car, Max, 454 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 4: if only a camera had been running, he unmindful of 455 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 4: where he was. Mac just stretched out his arms. He's 456 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 4: in front of Plymouth rockinsa's I love the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. 457 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 4: It would be classic marketing. But yeah, you could reenact that. 458 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. 459 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 4: All of those young men, over the course of the 460 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 4: months became my adopted sons, and very quickly the language 461 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 4: between us went from Richard to uncle to father, to 462 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 4: Papa to Bubba. And to think that in the lives 463 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 4: of these young men from across the world, there would 464 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 4: be created connections of a real father son relationship between 465 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 4: between all of us. 466 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 2: And are you committed to continuing this relationship? Yeah? 467 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 4: Because and part of it is what the museum is 468 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 4: all about, in that we have committed ourselves to the 469 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 4: philosophy of Martin Boo, the philosopher who had a practice 470 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 4: called I You, in which you commit yourself to being 471 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 4: truly present and seeing someone else. And one of the 472 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 4: reasons I think these young men took to me was 473 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 4: so many tourists don't see them like I just want 474 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 4: the coffee, I just want the sandwich, give me the cruller. 475 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 4: And they're not seeing this hard working person on the 476 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:27,960 Speaker 4: other side of the counter. 477 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 2: And they're not seeing what what they take for granted 478 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 2: means to this person, right, And so. 479 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 4: Just making eye contact, asking another person's story, All of 480 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 4: a sudden, my life is enrich for knowing these these 481 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 4: three young people. 482 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 2: And have you committed to knowing them for a long 483 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 2: long time? Oh? 484 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, We're We're together for life. Yeah, this this will 485 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 4: be a lifelong relationship of care in both directions. 486 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 2: Okay, so there's Max and there there are others. 487 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, that a young man named a Mod who is 488 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 4: now going to be a college student here in the 489 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 4: United States studying at Bunker Hill Community College. 490 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,479 Speaker 2: I love Bunker Hill. By the way, my wife quote 491 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 2: wife started her career there and is now a midwife 492 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 2: in the mass General Hospital. 493 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: Wow. 494 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 2: So it's a place where dreams begin. It's a big deal. 495 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 2: It's a wonderful place. 496 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 4: If I could give a shout out to a woman 497 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 4: in particular, Kiara Schwartz, who was so instrumental in helping 498 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 4: a Mod land the student visa so that he can 499 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 4: start studying in January. Just she was incredibly helpful at 500 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 4: the college and for us to say thank you to 501 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 4: her is huge. And then another young man named Salem, 502 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 4: incredible graphic designer who is about to be married to 503 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 4: a young woman named Zena. And Salim would show me 504 00:31:55,200 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 4: Zena's drawings fashion designer, and I said, Zena, you're remind 505 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 4: me of a young Halston. And so on FaceTime there's 506 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 4: this young woman just beaming. So I would love for 507 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 4: them to have the opportunity to study at either Rhode 508 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,720 Speaker 4: Island School of Design or get Zena to the Fashion 509 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 4: Institute of Technology. But the talent that I saw in 510 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 4: these young people and just so hard working. 511 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,479 Speaker 2: It's kind of nice to see that the dream of 512 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 2: so long ago is not completely dead and that not 513 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 2: everyone out there Jesus as an ogre. But you know, 514 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 2: it's still kind of a light on a hill and 515 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 2: it's a place to come and be and become something. Yeah. 516 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 2: Quite you know. 517 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 4: Ahmad spent his first American Thanksgiving today at the museum 518 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,960 Speaker 4: and he calls me Dad. I'm his American dad, and 519 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,600 Speaker 4: he said, Dad, to see so many happy people and 520 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 4: so many smiles, and it was great to have him there, 521 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 4: as you say, at ground zero for his first American Thanksgiving. 522 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 2: So are you going to reciprocate as you're teaching your 523 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 2: crew so much about the United States, Massachusetts and Thanksgiving Headquarters, 524 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 2: are you going to embrace that, you know, reciprocate and 525 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 2: learn the Jordanian culture. 526 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 4: I've got my living language CDs for the commute between 527 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 4: Wealthleet and Plymouth, and yes, and every morning I'm woken 528 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 4: up by Ahmad's brother who's checking on me dad, how 529 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 4: is your day? Because even his brothers considered me a 530 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 4: dad in some ways. So the families are all being 531 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 4: closely drawn together, which is just a great thing. And 532 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 4: one of the partnerships the museums had over the years 533 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 4: is with World Boston. It does amazing citizenship diplomatic work 534 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 4: where we as Americans are reaching out to others, and 535 00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 4: we've done programs with them. For a Rocky Museum Professionals. 536 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:08,759 Speaker 4: Two years ago, we had this group of Indonesian VIPs 537 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:10,960 Speaker 4: come and spend the day with us at the museum 538 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,839 Speaker 4: because Indonesia, for the first time is experiencing religious intolerance 539 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 4: in a long tradition of tolerance. And in the program 540 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,000 Speaker 4: that was created for them by World Boston, they stopped 541 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:28,320 Speaker 4: i think at fourteen different places in the United States. 542 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 4: One of the places they requested was Plymouth, patux at 543 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 4: museums because they wanted to know how we dealt with 544 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 4: the issues of religious intolerance in the seventeenth century. It 545 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,400 Speaker 4: was amazing, completely amazing. 546 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 2: It may not be religious tolerance so much but that 547 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 2: we're dealing with now, but there seemed to be a 548 00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:52,759 Speaker 2: lack of overall tolerance creep back not only into the 549 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,879 Speaker 2: United States, but into some other countries around the world 550 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,399 Speaker 2: as well, and I'm not sure why that is. That's 551 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,399 Speaker 2: a topic for a whole other day. We will break 552 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:03,960 Speaker 2: and have one more segment, and that will be to 553 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 2: share what the museum has to offer. All these nice 554 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,719 Speaker 2: folks who are enjoying our conversation, I want to let 555 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 2: them know what they can experience at this museum. It 556 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 2: is a wonderful place. It is in your backyard, a 557 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:23,759 Speaker 2: fantastic resource, and to not go and take advantage of 558 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:25,880 Speaker 2: this would be sad. And the only reason that you 559 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:27,920 Speaker 2: would not go is if you didn't know what was 560 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:30,120 Speaker 2: what they had to offer. So we're going to fix that. 561 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:35,279 Speaker 1: Next on WBZ, You're on Night Side with Dan Ray 562 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,280 Speaker 1: on WBZ Boston's news Radio. 563 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 2: One more precious segment with Richard Pickering of the Plymouth 564 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,879 Speaker 2: Tuxit Museums. And I would love to take this time 565 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:51,000 Speaker 2: to let everyone know what's to offer down there. It 566 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 2: is a trove of tremendousness, if you will, and so 567 00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,600 Speaker 2: there's a lot going on there that there's a lot 568 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 2: more than people know. Can you share it all? 569 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:05,800 Speaker 4: Well, we're open until this coming Sunday we close for 570 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:10,480 Speaker 4: the season. The Sunday after Thanksgiving and we reopen March 571 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 4: fourteenth of next year. But we have tremendous online experiences 572 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:19,680 Speaker 4: for people. The Lily Endowment films on the history of religion. 573 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:24,440 Speaker 4: The Texas Mayflower Society has funded six films called From 574 00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:27,440 Speaker 4: Compact to Constitution that get students. 575 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 2: That's really interesting. Yeah, Like the Compact has parts of 576 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 2: it that make its way into the Massachusetts Constitution and 577 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:34,920 Speaker 2: then the. 578 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:38,720 Speaker 4: US constr Yes, and so those six films are created 579 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 4: to help students explore those. The first weekend in December, 580 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:48,760 Speaker 4: so the sixth and the seventh massive artisanal Fair. They're 581 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:52,200 Speaker 4: eighty vendors coming from across the country and the entire 582 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:58,479 Speaker 4: museum will becoming an artisanal fair with performers for those 583 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 4: two days. 584 00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:05,680 Speaker 2: How did you you know you're from Braintree? Right, you're right, Yeah, 585 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:09,800 Speaker 2: you grew up in Braintree. How did that? In middle school? 586 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:12,640 Speaker 2: Richard become the Richard of today? What was that? Give 587 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:13,480 Speaker 2: me the whole journey? 588 00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:19,400 Speaker 4: I look back on an experience at the Adams National 589 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:25,359 Speaker 4: Historic Site with Miss Harris, who was the curator when 590 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:29,000 Speaker 4: I was six years old. My mother was a Virginian. 591 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:33,320 Speaker 4: She didn't get people up North, and so like an anthropologist, 592 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 4: she'd go to museums to try to figure out what 593 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,760 Speaker 4: we were all about. And it turned out that miss 594 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:43,720 Speaker 4: Harris was from Alabama. So when we're at the house, 595 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,920 Speaker 4: it's a rainy day, Mother and I are the only guests. 596 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:50,480 Speaker 4: But you now have two Southern women who are completely 597 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,880 Speaker 4: ignoring me, and they're talking back and forth about have 598 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,480 Speaker 4: you can you find a good ham here? All of that, 599 00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,960 Speaker 4: I'm wandering the house. They've totally lost attention on me. 600 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:04,479 Speaker 4: And I called back and I said, Mama, they've got 601 00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:08,280 Speaker 4: the paintings that the Washingtons gave them after the second administration. 602 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:12,960 Speaker 4: And from the other end, I heard miss harrisy, and how. 603 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:13,920 Speaker 2: Old is this child? 604 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 4: How old were you? I was seven? I think I 605 00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 4: was six or seven. And Mother said, we just read 606 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,960 Speaker 4: to them a lot. Well, in that moment she realized 607 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:25,160 Speaker 4: she had a fish on a hook. She took down 608 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,640 Speaker 4: all of the barriers in the mansion. So I am 609 00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,520 Speaker 4: walking into Abigail Adams's bedroom. 610 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:33,839 Speaker 2: She may let you on the bed. 611 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,239 Speaker 4: I didn't get to PLoP on the bed, but I'm 612 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:40,080 Speaker 4: this far away from the chair where he said Jefferson 613 00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:43,120 Speaker 4: still survives. Oh, and then at one point, she says, 614 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:45,319 Speaker 4: young man, put out your arms, and so I put 615 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:48,880 Speaker 4: out my arms, and she laid the Adams christening linen 616 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:52,600 Speaker 4: over my arms and told me which of the Adams 617 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:53,960 Speaker 4: had been had worn this. 618 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:57,719 Speaker 2: So you were hooked and that what you were after 619 00:38:57,760 --> 00:38:58,200 Speaker 2: the races. 620 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:02,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, and she showed me the Amistad Bible. I'm a 621 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:07,200 Speaker 4: seven year old kid, and even many African Americans at 622 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:11,040 Speaker 4: that point don't know the Amistad story. And Miss Harris 623 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 4: is telling me as a child about the Amistad and 624 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,280 Speaker 4: what John Quincy Adams did at the Supreme Court. 625 00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:19,920 Speaker 2: So this is registering with you. And oh, yeah, you 626 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,560 Speaker 2: were transfixed and you were seven. Yeah, because your mother 627 00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 2: read to you a lot. Yeah, And so there's a 628 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:30,439 Speaker 2: lesson there, folks. And I don't know if he's still up. 629 00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:35,280 Speaker 2: He's a middle school student. But this year on Patriots 630 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,719 Speaker 2: Day weekend, I met this young man named Jeremiah who 631 00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:42,280 Speaker 2: I'm interpreting the Standish Miles Standish's house, and he comes 632 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,400 Speaker 2: in and he tells me how a fish trap was made, 633 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:48,480 Speaker 2: how they slept in their beds, how a hearth worked, 634 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:53,000 Speaker 2: and I thought, oh, this is this is this is me. 635 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:58,000 Speaker 2: And so I said to his parents, take my business card, 636 00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:01,560 Speaker 2: and so I send Jeremiah books every couple of months, 637 00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:06,520 Speaker 2: and just it's extraordinary being in that position of being 638 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:10,439 Speaker 2: Miss Harris for this amazing young man named Jeremiah. No, no, no, 639 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,920 Speaker 2: Jeremiah could someday be the deputy director of Plymouth Plantation 640 00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:18,239 Speaker 2: the Texas Museums. Yeah, or one of your new sons, yes, 641 00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:21,040 Speaker 2: or all of them could be a crew that it 642 00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,239 Speaker 2: takes over. Yeah. Well, mother always called me mister Chips. 643 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:28,040 Speaker 4: She would say she. 644 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:28,200 Speaker 2: She loved that movie. 645 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:30,720 Speaker 4: And of course at the end of Mister Chips, someone 646 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:33,799 Speaker 4: says to the school teacher, it's too bad you had 647 00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:37,760 Speaker 4: no children, and he says, I do, and they're all sons. 648 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. I did not get to something I wanted to. 649 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:45,399 Speaker 2: I have three minutes left. We didn't get to the 650 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:50,440 Speaker 2: what the reason Lincoln made a big deal out of Thanksgiving. 651 00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:54,920 Speaker 4: Sarah Josepha Hale, who was a novelist and she was 652 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:59,120 Speaker 4: the editor of Goadie's Ladies Book. Daughter of a New 653 00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:02,960 Speaker 4: Hampshire car minister, she saw the crisis coming of the 654 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:06,719 Speaker 4: Civil War and she felt that if Americans could sit 655 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:12,560 Speaker 4: down at the dinner table, they would prevent strife and 656 00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:17,600 Speaker 4: so she used her influence as the most powerful editor 657 00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:21,920 Speaker 4: of the most read woman's magazine to teach women across 658 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:25,600 Speaker 4: the country how to have a New England Thanksgiving. At 659 00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:29,960 Speaker 4: the same time she is petitioning every president to declare 660 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:34,560 Speaker 4: a national holiday. She did it for four decades before 661 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:36,200 Speaker 4: Lincoln finally responded. 662 00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:38,960 Speaker 2: So they knew there were going to be divisions, and 663 00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:45,560 Speaker 2: they chose to focus on a point that was mutually appreciated, yes, 664 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:51,120 Speaker 2: and go back before the division had really taken place, 665 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:52,399 Speaker 2: and it kind of did help. 666 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:56,040 Speaker 4: It must have helped, I think so, because every president 667 00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:58,799 Speaker 4: subsequent to Lincoln declares a Thanksgiving. 668 00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,239 Speaker 2: Right, yeah, that's true, and it would just be a 669 00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:04,960 Speaker 2: sad ending to go No, it didn't help at all. Right, yeah, 670 00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:09,319 Speaker 2: let's see that all right down and well with one minute, 671 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:14,200 Speaker 2: what are you working on? Uh, currently academically writing your book. 672 00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:19,920 Speaker 4: The book I'm working on is about leadership in the 673 00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:25,000 Speaker 4: seventeenth century, both Pokanock at Wampanogue and English and how 674 00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:29,640 Speaker 4: you have leaders who are self sacrificing. They're not searching 675 00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:35,080 Speaker 4: for self agrandizement, but essentially they are sacrificing themselves for 676 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:41,080 Speaker 4: the benefit of their communities. That go altruistic leaders, yes yeah, 677 00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:46,560 Speaker 4: and to the point of personal exhaustion and great financial loss. 678 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:49,120 Speaker 2: Well we could use more of that. Thank you again 679 00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:51,120 Speaker 2: so much for coming. Good to see you, my friend. 680 00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:53,120 Speaker 2: I means so much to all of us that you do. 681 00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,480 Speaker 2: You know we're pleased. And that would be it for 682 00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,920 Speaker 2: tonight's edition of Night Side with Dan Ray and Bradley 683 00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:02,719 Speaker 2: Jay back in another night tomorrow night and then Dance Back. 684 00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:04,560 Speaker 2: It's WBC News Radio ten thirty