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Speaker 1: Don't be flowny. Here on seven hundred wlw's schools across

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Speaker 1: America locking up, snatching up kids cell phones like their

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Speaker 1: hot Contra band. So you got bell de Belle bands,

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Speaker 1: you got the big mad Night of pousage. You got

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Speaker 1: confiscation policies. Ohio, Kentucky, Indiana all requires school districts to

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Speaker 1: implement policies banning those phones during instructional class time. And

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Speaker 1: each state's so a little bit different than that every

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Speaker 1: but largely most states have this conon policy. But here's

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Speaker 1: the question.

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Speaker 2: You're ready for the question.

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Speaker 1: Here's the question no one's asking us. So new studies

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Speaker 1: come out, and not just new, but preceding studies have

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Speaker 1: come out. The shows teachers spend somewhere between twenty five

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Speaker 1: and thirty something percent of their day, so between a

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Speaker 1: quarter and a third of their instructional day trying to

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Speaker 1: get kids to listen despite strict cell phone bands.

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Speaker 2: That hasn't changed.

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Speaker 1: So our phones the core problem or is it just

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Speaker 1: a scapegoat?

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Speaker 2: On that?

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Speaker 1: Christine Miles, she's a psychologist and works with school systems

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Speaker 1: across the country. Founder of the Listening Past. Christine, welcome,

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Speaker 1: how are you?

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Speaker 2: I'm great I'm so glad we're talking about this, so

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Speaker 2: thanks for having me on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I was thinking about this before a conversation,

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Speaker 1: and you know I was not. I don't know about you,

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Speaker 1: but I was not part of the cell phone generation. Obviously.

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Speaker 1: I had my mobile now and had it for a

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Speaker 1: look for twenty thirty years. But I look back and go, wow,

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Speaker 1: we didn't have this problem when I was a kid.

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Speaker 1: As most parents and grandparents certainly say, things are different.

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Speaker 1: Of course they're supposed to be different. That's how the

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Speaker 1: world this is, That's how America's designed. I guess this

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Speaker 1: would be like what if I in school, if I

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Speaker 1: were allowed to bring my TV with a cable on

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Speaker 1: it and I could watch MTV. What that would do

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Speaker 1: for my ability to learn? It's the same thing, right

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Speaker 1: it really.

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Speaker 2: That's that's beautifully said. That's exactly what it is. We

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Speaker 2: don't need it. We just don't need the cord.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So so, but I so appreciate the question because it

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Speaker 2: is a big it is a big, big problem, and

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Speaker 2: I'm so glad the school's are fine. We're taking a step.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we know better, we do better. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I remember I grew up when smoking was allowed in

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Speaker 2: most places, but then we realized it was harmful for

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Speaker 2: your health, so we took it outside and we made

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Speaker 2: smoking areas and things like that. So setting some limits

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Speaker 2: is similar to that, because I think this is like

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Speaker 2: that the ships sailed before we knew what the repercussions were.

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Speaker 2: And I don't think it's the root cause. It's just

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Speaker 2: that in gasoline to the already raging fire. In terms

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Speaker 2: of the problem of kids struggling to listen, there's also

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Speaker 2: some rebound effects here. So you take the phones out

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Speaker 2: of the schools, and attention spans are still harder to

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Speaker 2: come by because when if they're on their phones and

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Speaker 2: on devices, which the numbers are kind of staggering. You know,

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Speaker 2: these are spending nine hours plus a day outside of

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Speaker 2: school work. That's a lot of time. So it's not

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Speaker 2: like your brain's going to recover just because you don't

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Speaker 2: have it in school. But again we're still it's still

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Speaker 2: not the root cause, in my opinion, is that we're told,

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Speaker 2: not taught, and this is a problem since the documents

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Speaker 2: since the nineteen fifties.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was making that case and this kind of

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Speaker 1: a theme show today on this I had earlier we're

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Speaker 1: talking about the social media liability trial. It's about to

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Speaker 1: happen that social media and TikTok and snapchat and instant

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Speaker 1: all those platforms are addictive by design and will ruin

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Speaker 1: your kid's life. Yeah, if they go uncheck, if they're

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Speaker 1: completely fear al online with no roadblocks up. But that's

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Speaker 1: on the parent. I don't think that's on the company.

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Speaker 1: Also made the case that the social is not the problem.

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Speaker 1: The phone itself is the problem. It is like literal,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's like bringing it's a handheld Damn

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Speaker 1: casino is what it is. Right, It's like I've got

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Speaker 1: everything out there. It's not social. It's I can message,

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Speaker 1: I can look at videos, i can watch porn, I

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Speaker 1: can check sports, I can bet online, I can I

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Speaker 1: can do all of these things in the problem in

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Speaker 1: my hand. That's really it's not social. It's the phone.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's it's all the things that are coming. It's

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Speaker 2: the world coming at kids, not the world, you know,

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Speaker 2: not kids exploring the world and what's finding them. You know. Again,

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Speaker 2: there's could be a lot of debate about algorithms and

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Speaker 2: how we're targeting, just because we could have debates our

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Speaker 2: cigarette companies targeting the brain and making things addictive. So

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Speaker 2: there's there's It's a very complex issue, and I think yes,

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Speaker 2: parental control is important. Schools taking these steps is important

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Speaker 2: when again, when we know better, we do better, and

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Speaker 2: we still need. One of the things taking this time

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Speaker 2: away in schools is that it forces us to do

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Speaker 2: something else. So you know, I've I've talked with parents

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Speaker 2: as you know, a family therapist and one time a

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Speaker 2: parents said to me, what if my child won't eat anything,

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Speaker 2: drink anything but soda? And I said, well, if you

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Speaker 2: take soda away in the house, they'll get thirsty eventually.

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Speaker 2: So you know they'll eventually drink water if water is

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Speaker 2: all there is. So what will happen is kids will

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Speaker 2: start to reacclimate towards socializing with each other more than

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Speaker 2: they will to the phones when the phones aren't in

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Speaker 2: front of them. But it's two attempting. So we need

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Speaker 2: to remove those barriers. But then we also got to

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Speaker 2: give them the skills. I mean, we've been telling we've

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Speaker 2: been telling people to listen kids starting with kids from

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Speaker 2: like I said, this is a problem documented back to

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Speaker 2: the nineteen fifties where we don't have formal listening, education

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Speaker 2: and classrooms. So we tell them expecting the ears to

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Speaker 2: do the work instead of building this as a skill,

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Speaker 2: which is what it is.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean I saw we should be addressing

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Speaker 1: in stool. She's a schools that's Christine Mouse, psychologist. Let's

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Speaker 1: back up a little bit. What goes on in the

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Speaker 1: adolescent brain from a developmental psychology perspective, what's actually happening

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Speaker 1: when their kids are always on their phone and you

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Speaker 1: met you know, nine, ten, twelve or more hours a day.

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Speaker 2: Well, so I will say that I can talk about

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Speaker 2: this from the This is not my core expertise on

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Speaker 2: a system's family therapist, but what I do know and

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Speaker 2: what the research is, it's just it's a dopamine hit.

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Speaker 2: It's a constant dopamine hit. It is. It is asking

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Speaker 2: like a drug. Now we can talk about that from

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Speaker 2: an adult perspective, and we know how difficult that is.

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Speaker 2: You talked about family, you talked about form. These are

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Speaker 2: things for adults that they struggle with in terms of

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Speaker 2: the time on the phone. When your brains developing, we're

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Speaker 2: in a whole different round here, So we were not

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Speaker 2: forming the pathways that need to be formed in early

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Speaker 2: childhood and in adolescence, which is really why it's so dangerous,

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Speaker 2: because we're changing those neual pathways we're getting they're having

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Speaker 2: a hard time self soothing, They're having a hard time

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Speaker 2: you know. This is why we know the mental health

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Speaker 2: issues are spiking, not just the attention issues. This is

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Speaker 2: very well documented now in the in the literature.

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Speaker 1: Okay, but there's also a separation factor here. I guess,

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Speaker 1: for lack of a better word, we're seeing some students

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Speaker 1: are you know, they're experiencing genuine anxiety and panic attacks

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Speaker 1: when they're separated from their phones during these bands. Is

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Speaker 1: that a clinical concern we should take seriously or is

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Speaker 1: that a warning for everyone else?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think it's a withdrawal issue. I think this

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Speaker 2: is exactly you know what, Let's go back to something simple.

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Speaker 2: You know, we give kids a pacifier because it helps

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Speaker 2: them sue themselves. When when it's time, when the parents go, okay,

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Speaker 2: it's time to now wean off of that. There's some

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Speaker 2: fears that when we have to say goodbye to something

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Speaker 2: that was helping us south just because it helps us

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Speaker 2: suit doesn't mean it's good for us. This is not

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Speaker 2: how we want we want kids to regulates through a

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Speaker 2: device and through having to have constant you know, attention

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Speaker 2: coming at us, so that our constant stimulus. So we're

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Speaker 2: we're not thinking, feeling, or even operating in the present,

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Speaker 2: and that's the danger zone. So this is where but

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Speaker 2: we've got to fill that gap so that they're not

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Speaker 2: as anxious. Again, this is where the socialization is the answer.

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Speaker 2: It's not just take it away. It's the only way

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Speaker 2: to stop the behavior to start a new one. So

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Speaker 2: you take the phones away, now you have to replace

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Speaker 2: it with more socialization. We're skill building around listening, which

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Speaker 2: is why again teachers have been telling kids to listen

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Speaker 2: in the classrooms for you know, decades, and this is

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Speaker 2: a constant battle because it's hard to pay attention for

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Speaker 2: eight hours a day, especially if you don't have the skill.

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Speaker 2: If I said, you go run a marathon, that you

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Speaker 2: know how to run, but get into the get to

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Speaker 2: the end of the race, you got to train, you

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Speaker 2: gotta build the muscle. And so this is our opportunity

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Speaker 2: is to finally solve this problem, which is what I'm

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Speaker 2: committed to doing, is to is to provide education from

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Speaker 2: elementary classrooms to corporations because it doesn't matter what age

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Speaker 2: you are. You only, you know, a very small percentage,

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Speaker 2: less than two percent have any formal listening trading.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she is Christine Miles. She's a psychologist of what

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Speaker 1: it's cost to you not to listen to the founder

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Speaker 1: of the listening path or talking about school cell phone

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Speaker 1: and then we have that in Ohio, Kentucky, Indiana to

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Speaker 1: a large degree. But the question nobody's asking that I'm

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Speaker 1: bringing in this morning is their studies are coming out

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Speaker 1: and they're showing that teachers still spend a corner or

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Speaker 1: more of their workday, of their instruction day, just trying

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Speaker 1: to get kids to listen. Then that was before and

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Speaker 1: now after cell phone bands. So our cell phone is

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Speaker 1: really the problem. They really wreck kids lives. I've also

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Speaker 1: seen studies that pointed out earlier said that, you know,

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Speaker 1: the extreme is if you spend all your time on

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Speaker 1: the phone, it's really really bad for you. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's horrible for your development, all these things we're talking about.

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Speaker 1: That's absolutely true. But kids who do aren't on social

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Speaker 1: or don't have phones, who don't use them aren't allowed

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Speaker 1: to tend to also suffer some of those same symptoms.

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Speaker 1: Maybe not the extreme we're talking about with over usage,

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Speaker 1: but under usage. There's a sweet spot right in the middle.

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Speaker 1: And when I hear that, I go, Okay, kids if

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Speaker 1: they're exposed a little social media and able to congregate

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Speaker 1: online with friends, because that's how kids socialized today. I

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Speaker 1: was a kid where we'd socialized at the mall or

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Speaker 1: the arcade, and kids today do it digitally. So we

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Speaker 1: have to lean into that. Is this just a lesson

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Speaker 1: that we are woefully behind how we educate kids in

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Speaker 1: America still today because we're teaching them like we did

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Speaker 1: a couple hundred years ago. There's a you know, maybe

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Speaker 1: it's instead of a blackboard, it's a whiteboard or a smartboard,

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Speaker 1: but you're still at rote memorization. It's all these things

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Speaker 1: we've taught kids largely the same way. If phones and

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Speaker 1: social media, Christine are changing kids' brains, shouldn't we be

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Speaker 1: adopting the school curricula to meet the way kids learn

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Speaker 1: now as opposed to how they did a couple hundred

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Speaker 1: years ago.

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Speaker 2: Well, you're this is such a good point. I mean,

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Speaker 2: we we know that just what we know about the

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Speaker 2: neurodivergency and the way kids learn that. Look, we're you

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Speaker 2: know you and I could go back and say, well,

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Speaker 2: you know, if somebody was this lessacker, had genuinely had

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Speaker 2: a d D or things like that, this wasn't necessarily

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Speaker 2: talked about or diagnosed to the same degree. We once

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Speaker 2: could argue that, you know, not everybody has add that,

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Speaker 2: but it is real. It is a real thing. So

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Speaker 2: we just know that teachers have a lot of divergent

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Speaker 2: learning needs and so it's really about meeting kids where

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Speaker 2: they are, which is part of why the listening is

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Speaker 2: hard too, because kids needs are different. Yes, which is

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Speaker 2: why this is a this you're the point you're making

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Speaker 2: is I think, which is where my heart and soul

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Speaker 2: is is this is a systemic problem. We're not going

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Speaker 2: to fix this with one thing. Again, we know that

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Speaker 2: phones that what we're trying to prevent is is keeping

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Speaker 2: them off of engaging with each other, engaging with the future,

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Speaker 2: and engaging with the with the core curriculum. Like you said,

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Speaker 2: take the TV out of the classroom, that's just common sense.

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Speaker 2: Right then, we have the issue of what we do

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Speaker 2: at home and how we limit time. We know that

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Speaker 2: past the screen time, the scrolling, the doom scrolling, that's

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Speaker 2: not super productive, and that can get that's very addictive. Well,

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Speaker 2: you know, then there's some socialization. How can you mitigate

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Speaker 2: that with socialization? And then you get to the But

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Speaker 2: you take all that and you cure all that, you

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Speaker 2: still have this learning problem and you still have this

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Speaker 2: listening problem to systemic communication problem. We focus on speaking, telling, knowing,

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Speaker 2: and test scores versus how we're learning. And that's what AI,

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Speaker 2: in my opinion, is going to come in and change.

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Speaker 2: You know, we had the calculator. Now we have something

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Speaker 2: that could do the formulators, but that formulas, But how

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Speaker 2: can you explain it? How can you make sense out

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Speaker 2: of it? How can you show up as a person

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Speaker 2: that knows how to collaborate? And these are all the

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Speaker 2: skills that are at the core of what's going to

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Speaker 2: make somebody successful in the future. Starting we got to

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Speaker 2: start teaching that at a very early age, as early

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Speaker 2: as first grade, so that they're ready. And this is

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Speaker 2: where we have to fix this systemically, so that we're

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Speaker 2: teaching the skills so everybody is a common language. Is

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Speaker 2: how you listen so they can understand.

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Speaker 1: So there's another factor here in my mind that this

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Speaker 1: whole thing and I get it, there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: talk about phones descrying attention spans, and the argument is

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Speaker 1: whether the phone is the cause or just the most

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Speaker 1: convenient delivery system for a culture that's already dopamine driven

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Speaker 1: and overstimulate. I mean, you know, parents are were upset

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Speaker 1: with the cell phone bands because they want to be

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Speaker 1: able to get a hold of their kid instantly at

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Speaker 1: any time during an emergency. But as an excuse to go,

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Speaker 1: I can text you during class because parents are also

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Speaker 1: anxious all the time. Well, and it trickles down that

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Speaker 1: we're all anxiously all the time. But I think it's interesting,

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Speaker 1: is that. So the way to beat this whole thing

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Speaker 1: is to simply use AI and use the algorithms for

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Speaker 1: good as opposed to evil. If you want to call

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Speaker 1: social media evil, and that is educators and the system

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Speaker 1: should be creating platforms much like TikTok and snapchat and

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Speaker 1: install that feed that that feeds a student a steady

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Speaker 1: diet of what they're interested in to learn that continues

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Speaker 1: to push stuff towards them and challenge them and learn

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Speaker 1: what their likes and dislikes are and try and strengthen

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Speaker 1: those dislikes and make everything better. Use use the technology

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Speaker 1: for good instead of social media. But the problem with

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Speaker 1: that is now you're going to replace all of these

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Speaker 1: teachers and all these administrators in the schools with something

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Speaker 1: that's digital. That means now that threatens the teachers unions,

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Speaker 1: that threatens the administrators and the whole construct of schools

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Speaker 1: in general, because guess what if I can do this

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Speaker 1: with my phone, much like we've seen you know, broadcast TV,

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Speaker 1: go away radio, everything else, newspaper press for example. Because

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Speaker 1: of the digital age, that now threatens the livelihood of

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Speaker 1: the education class. And we can't have that in America.

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Speaker 1: And so what winds up happening is this distonect between

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Speaker 1: the kids in the classroom. Am I wrong?

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Speaker 2: Well, here's what I think. I so, you know, I yes. Again,

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Speaker 2: the it's just like we could be saying the same

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Speaker 2: thing about corporate America, the road. The road things can

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Speaker 2: be replaced, well, can't be replaced by the human skills.

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Speaker 2: And that's one of the things that I think teachers

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Speaker 2: are getting away from, and not by the doing because

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Speaker 2: there's so much pressure to teach to these core ideas

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Speaker 2: and curriculum and the standards, is that they're getting away

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Speaker 2: from the human part of the job, which is really

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Speaker 2: how we develop kids, how we nurture kids, and so

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Speaker 2: this is going to be the heart of what happens

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Speaker 2: in the school and what teachers love to do and

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Speaker 2: why most teachers get into the work. So I think

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Speaker 2: it's not that they'll be replaced as to what the

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Speaker 2: emphasis is that needs to change. And that's the same

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Speaker 2: thing that I see on the corporate side that if

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Speaker 2: you want to you have to drive that value as

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Speaker 2: a what in your job because some of the redundancies

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Speaker 2: can be replaced. And so the answer isn't more time

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Speaker 2: on screen. The answer is more connection in terms of

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Speaker 2: how we raise the kids and how we teach them

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Speaker 2: and how we help them connect through language and through interaction,

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Speaker 2: so that everything they learn in this kind of this

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Speaker 2: fast paced digital world and what's coming at them, they

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Speaker 2: can manage their emotions, They can manage the emotions of others,

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Speaker 2: they can develop empathy. They have the things that the

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Speaker 2: AI and the machines don't have. And that's the risk

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Speaker 2: is that we're tipping over into too much of the

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Speaker 2: screen time.

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Speaker 1: Right. She is Christine Miles psychologist. Her book is What

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Speaker 1: Is Costing You Not to Listen? Founder of the Listening Past,

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Speaker 1: Christine miles. Thanks of the time.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate it, appreciate the conversation. It's really really helpful.

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Speaker 1: I think I just made the case here teachers can

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Speaker 1: be replaced. This is not believe me, this is like,

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Speaker 1: this is dangerous territory. If you could come up with

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Speaker 1: an algorithm, and it's easy to do because we've seen

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Speaker 1: this replicated Tom and Tom again, that would teach kids

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Speaker 1: on their level, meaning it feeds them a steady die.

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Speaker 1: The algorithm feeds them a steady die of things they're

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Speaker 1: interested in and expands their knowledge base in learning and

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Speaker 1: kind of sort of tricks them into learning where it

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Speaker 1: becomes fun and engaging on a personal level, just like

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Speaker 1: social media is. And now they're hooked on this, and

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Speaker 1: you put that in the classroom and ban the phone

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Speaker 1: and give them a device that is the alternate to

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Speaker 1: social media and all the stuff coming at you. And

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Speaker 1: that's how kids learn today. They learn on social media,

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Speaker 1: they learn through digital interaction. If you do that in

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Speaker 1: the classroom, kids now become smarter, more engaged, more learned.

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Speaker 1: But what happens to the educational system the computer replaces

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Speaker 1: the teacher. Can't have that in America?

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Speaker 2: Can we?

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Speaker 1: Because of what's at stake? There's also the is she

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Speaker 1: mentioned important too? The social interaction thing? But is this

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Speaker 1: like the it's like clickbait right, This is what the

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Speaker 1: educational system doesn't want you to know, This one weird

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Speaker 1: old trick for saving us a lot of money and

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Speaker 1: getting a better student Thoughts afternoons here Scontzerland continues on

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Speaker 1: seven hundred ww