1 00:00:01,600 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: With Dan Ray WBS Costs Radio. 2 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:09,160 Speaker 2: Thanks very much, Al, We're going to move into the 3 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:12,560 Speaker 2: ten o'clock hour. Earlier this week. I had a guest 4 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 2: in the eight o'clock hours actually on election night, November fourth, 5 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:21,759 Speaker 2: doctor Chloe Carmichael. And I really enjoyed my conversation with 6 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 2: doctor Carmichael that night, so I've asked her to come 7 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 2: back tonight. She is she is a real advocate of 8 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 2: She's a First of all, she's a clinical psychologist, okay, 9 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 2: and so she deals with people and where their mind 10 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:41,599 Speaker 2: is that Her new book is can I say that 11 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 2: why free speech matters and how to use it fearlessly? 12 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 2: The problem is that in recent years people have been 13 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 2: have been discouraged from speaking fearlessly. And I think doctor Carmichael, 14 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 2: you and I are pretty much on the same page 15 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 2: on this issue. Welcome to Night Side. How are you. 16 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 3: Thanks, It's great to be back with you, Dan. Yeah. 17 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 3: I think we're kindred spirits on the free speech issue. 18 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I also think that politically we're probably pretty close. 19 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 2: What troubles me is that we have reached a point 20 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:27,039 Speaker 2: in our society, both within society but within our own 21 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 2: families where people feel inhibited from even expressing their opinion 22 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 2: about certain subjects. And I'm not a psychologist, you're a psychologist, 23 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:44,759 Speaker 2: but that cannot be healthy psychologically to be in a situation, 24 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 2: particularly with family members who you know that a conversation 25 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 2: about subject A, B, C, or D you just avoid it. 26 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 2: How did we ever get to that point? 27 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that's so many, so many good points 28 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 3: and questions in their DAN. I mean, it's interesting. Actually, 29 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 3: eighty four percent of Americans do feel like concern about 30 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 3: cancel culture. So I think you're absolutely right that a 31 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 3: lot of people feel afraid to express an opinion. And 32 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 3: absolutely you're connecting that with the fact that it even 33 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 3: comes down to breaking up families. Sometimes there's this really 34 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 3: disturbing trend of you know, going no contact where oftentimes 35 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 3: younger people will refuse to talk at all, you know, 36 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 3: to their parents or their grandparents. I've talked to grandparents 37 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 3: that are not allowed to see their very young grandchildren 38 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 3: even And this is just all over things like you know, 39 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 3: who did you vote for or you know, how do 40 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 3: you feel about transgender issues? I mean, things that you 41 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 3: can have disagreements about, but I don't think it should 42 00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 3: have to come you know, down to this disown your 43 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 3: family thing. And then you also asked about how we 44 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:05,359 Speaker 3: got here, So I mean, there's so much to unpack yet. 45 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I understand. That's why why I asked that question. Yeah, 46 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 2: before we go to there, let me throw another issue 47 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 2: out because I want to make sure that the audience 48 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 2: understands I'm a free speech guy just like you are. 49 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 2: But I also understand that there is language that was 50 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 2: used by prior generations and sometimes by the previous generation, 51 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 2: which is no longer acceptable under any circumstances. And you may, 52 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 2: I assume you will agree with me that you know 53 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 2: language that you would hear someone utilize, you know, sort 54 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 2: of what I would call the Archie Bunker attitude language. Now, 55 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 2: that was written by Norman Lear, and it was intended 56 00:03:56,680 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 2: to be a satire and it was a very effective 57 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 2: of satire. But you know, you know, when you when 58 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 2: you see people marching in Virginia, in Charlottesville, Virginia with 59 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 2: torches and we will not be replaced, and all of 60 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 2: that what I consider to be garbage. I can't even 61 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 2: begin to associate with that issue. That point of view, 62 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:27,160 Speaker 2: people who engage in blood libels, and we've seen that 63 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 2: at some of the Palestinian College demonstrations about Jewish people 64 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 2: and even about the government of Israel. You would, I 65 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 2: hope you will agree with me that there are some areas, 66 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 2: some lines that that we as a society understand can 67 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 2: should not be crossed. Are you with me? Well? 68 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think it depends, because I'm with 69 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 3: you in the sense that absolutely this is you know, 70 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:58,720 Speaker 3: vocabulary vernacular that reflects ideas that I obviously don't have, 71 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 3: and it's not go tabularian words that I would use. 72 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 3: I personally would put that kind of thing into what 73 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 3: we call lawful but awful speech, right. 74 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 2: Line. 75 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:15,479 Speaker 3: Yeah, so, I mean within the realm of the First Amendment. 76 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 3: For example, you could go around seeing women are stupid broads, right, 77 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 3: and I disagree with that, and that would fall into 78 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 3: that Archie bunker category. But I don't want to, you know, 79 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 3: legally rob someone. I'm not going to cut out their tongue. Interestingly, 80 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 3: though I share this in the book Members of the 81 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:42,840 Speaker 3: KKK or Gi Hattie Recruiters. The way those people waited 82 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:47,480 Speaker 3: to give up their beliefs is not by somebody telling 83 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 3: them you are not allowed to speak. The way that 84 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:55,479 Speaker 3: they change their beliefs is actually by somebody sitting down 85 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 3: and inviting them to talk, to share their you know, beliefs, 86 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 3: and to unpack them. That's actually part of the power 87 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 3: of language is that allows us to step outside of ourselves, 88 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 3: hear our selves, think and analyze ourselves. So I agree 89 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 3: with you. Obviously that's not my kind of speech, it's 90 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 3: not my kind of scene. 91 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 4: But when it. 92 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 3: Comes to outlawing speech, I think in a certain way, 93 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:23,840 Speaker 3: you know, that's what the First Amendment is there for 94 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 3: to a certain degree, is to protect that lawful but 95 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 3: awful speech. 96 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not in favor of outlawing speech, right, but 97 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:37,919 Speaker 2: I am in favor and as a lawyer understand that 98 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 2: there are things that you know, again the classic as 99 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 2: you can't show fire in a theater, but more more 100 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 2: traditionally than I'm thinking, you know, you engage in fighting 101 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 2: words and you go up to someone on the street 102 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 2: and all of a sudden, you're just in that person's face. 103 00:06:55,000 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 2: I had a guest on oh within the last few weeks, 104 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:04,239 Speaker 2: a black man who actually went out of his way 105 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 2: to make contact with members of the Ku Klux Klan 106 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 2: in the Maryland area written a book about it as 107 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 2: a matter of fact, and he he had some he 108 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 2: actually developed I don't know if I could call them friendships, 109 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 2: but he developed relationships with these leaders of the ku 110 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 2: Klux Klan just by doing exactly what you just said, 111 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 2: being brave enough to enter into a conversation and essentially 112 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 2: inquire of them why they they felt the way they did, 113 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 2: why they said the way they why did they believe 114 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 2: the things that they that they believed in? And he 115 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 2: was a really interesting guest. So that would be an 116 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 2: example of what you're talking about. What I'm talking about 117 00:07:55,760 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 2: is the people who well, I mean, look, people use 118 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 2: the N word. I mean that, you know, I want 119 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 2: nothing to do with anybody who who had their vocabulary 120 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 2: is so limited that that they're going to do that. 121 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 2: I think that's outside the bounds of the speech that 122 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 2: I want to hear. And I'm not sure if that's 123 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 2: what you're saying. I hope it's close to what you're saying. 124 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, so when I say that I, you know, 125 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 3: want free speech and that you know, I don't want 126 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 3: to outlaw you know, words, that doesn't either mean that 127 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 3: I have no boundaries and that I will lend my 128 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 3: ears to anybody anytime who says anything. And you know, 129 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 3: in fact, that's one of the things I talk about 130 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 3: in the book, is how to have good boundaries and 131 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 3: that we can absolutely, you know, just choose not to 132 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 3: participate in certain conversations. But that doesn't mean that we 133 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:56,319 Speaker 3: have to try to cut out those people's tongues and 134 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 3: you know, prevent them. 135 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 2: And I actually it's powerful metaphor cutting help people's tongues. 136 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 2: By the way, the fellow who wrote this book, his 137 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 2: name is Daryl Davis. 138 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 3: He's my book. I talk about him. 139 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 2: Oh great, the clan whisper. Yeah, I mean, yeah, excellent. Well, 140 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 2: let me do this. I got to take a quick break. 141 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:19,719 Speaker 2: I want to get phone calls six one, seven, two, five, four, 142 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 2: ten thirty six one seven, nine, three, one, ten thirty. 143 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:28,959 Speaker 2: My guest is doctor Chloe Chamberlain. Her book is Can 144 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:32,080 Speaker 2: I say that why free speech matters? And how to 145 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 2: use it fearlessly? And I really do want to drill 146 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 2: down doctor Carmichael on the intolerance of many on either side. 147 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 2: But intolerance seems to have infected the left side of 148 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 2: the street a lot more. I'm most of the conservatives 149 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 2: who I get on this program as callers are willing 150 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 2: to talk and argue and and have a conversation. But 151 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 2: there are a lot of people I think, who are 152 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 2: in what I would call the progressive movement. They have 153 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 2: figured it out and they they are not interested and 154 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 2: in any sort of a conversation. Which is and I 155 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 2: know that you're in the New York area, I believe, 156 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 2: which is what I fear about Mamdani, that he is 157 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:30,559 Speaker 2: not He's going to try to rule New York in 158 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 2: a in a very iron fisted way, and he will 159 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 2: not have any you know, cabinet of of of rivals 160 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 2: as a ram Lincoln had in his cabinet, that they 161 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 2: will all be people who are just going to support 162 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 2: whatever crazy idea Mamdani tries to impose on the people 163 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 2: of New York City. Your thought on that, Yeah. 164 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 3: No, I totally agree with you. And I think there 165 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:00,959 Speaker 3: is a link with progressivism. And you know, Mom himself 166 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 3: describes himself as a democratic socialist, and you know, it's 167 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 3: hard to even tell exactly I think the line between 168 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 3: that and you know, general socialism and communism and Marxism, 169 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 3: and you know, to your point, all of that stuff 170 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 3: hinges on this, you know, oppressor, oppressed, you know, mentality, 171 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:22,839 Speaker 3: and so on some level, I think that they want 172 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 3: to co opt the language and just you know, create 173 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 3: division in that way. And you know, sometimes they can 174 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 3: do it under the cloak of kindness. It's kind of 175 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:38,439 Speaker 3: a wolf in cheap's clothing type situation, you know, where 176 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 3: they're like, oh, well, we're just going to make everything 177 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 3: really kind and so therefore you can't say what you 178 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 3: really think because it's you know, quote hurtful when actually 179 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 3: we resolve differences so much better when we can talk 180 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 3: about them directly. Violence increases when dialogue ceases. So if 181 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 3: we want to create a more harmonious society, we don't 182 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 3: do it by telling people to shut up. We do 183 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:07,079 Speaker 3: it by trying to encourage them to dialogue. 184 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:09,320 Speaker 2: I totally agree with you, And as a matter of fact, 185 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 2: when we come back, I'm going to play from if 186 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 2: I go back to the Occupy Wall Street movement of 187 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 2: twenty ten, circle twenty ten. I have a woman who 188 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 2: actually is a teacher or was a teacher at some 189 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:29,960 Speaker 2: point in the Los Angeles public school system, and she 190 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 2: was interviewed and she made some comments which to me 191 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 2: have epitomized much of what we have seen bloom On 192 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:41,679 Speaker 2: College campuses in the last couple of years. We'll get 193 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:45,200 Speaker 2: to that sound bite. More conversation with doctor Chloe Carmichael. 194 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 2: She again is a psychologist, she's a thinker, and she 195 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 2: has a book. Can I say that why free speech 196 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 2: matters and how to use it fearlessly. There's a lot 197 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 2: of countries around the world, folks, where free speech doesn't exist. 198 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 2: What we're doing here tonight would not be allowed in 199 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 2: a lot of countries around the world. And let us 200 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 2: not not fully appreciate how fortunate we are to live 201 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 2: in this society and in this country at this time. 202 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,680 Speaker 2: Back with doctor Chloe Carmichael, if you like to join 203 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:19,319 Speaker 2: the conversation six one, seven, two, five, four ten thirty 204 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,319 Speaker 2: six one seven, nine three one ten thirty. Her book 205 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 2: is available and is out. I think would be a 206 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 2: great holiday President, Christmas, Honukah, whatever you celebrate, Festivus, it 207 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 2: doesn't matter to or even to bring us a Thanksgiving 208 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:36,079 Speaker 2: Day gift that you that you might give to someone 209 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 2: on the other side of the political spectrum and see 210 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 2: if they have the courage to one accept it and 211 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 2: to read the book. Back on Nightside right after. 212 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 1: This, you're on Night Side with Dan ray On. You Bzy, 213 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 1: Boston's news Radio. 214 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 2: My guest is doctor Chloe Carmichael. Doctor Carmichael, I have 215 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 2: to apologize my regular producer is off tonight. Uh and 216 00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 2: I put my covering producer in a buying because he 217 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 2: does and have access to this video. But it was 218 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 2: a video taken in twenty ten. It was widely circulated. 219 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,559 Speaker 2: It showed a woman who identified herself as a teacher 220 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 2: in the Los Angeles public school system, and she just 221 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 2: went on about how that the problem with this country, 222 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 2: or that the Jews run the banks and all this garbage, 223 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 2: blood libels, and that we got to get the Jews 224 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 2: out of America. And she was at the height of 225 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 2: the Occupy Wall Street, so there was that real scent 226 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 2: of anti Semitism, virulent anti semitism. I don't I can't 227 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 2: play it for you, but my audience has played it. 228 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 2: I don't know if you ever heard that SoundBite, but 229 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 2: it's a frightening SoundBite that anybody would express that opinion 230 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 2: as openly and as fearlessly as she did. But I 231 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 2: was appreciative that she would do it because it sort 232 00:14:56,240 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 2: of showed what sort of a key answer has infected 233 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 2: as early as twenty ten, the progressive movement in this country. 234 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 2: So free speech has a benefit to show us people. 235 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 2: When someone says something and they show you who they are, 236 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 2: you should believe them exactly. 237 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 3: And that's why you know, this idea about you know, 238 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 3: creating safe spaces that are basically where you're not allowed 239 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 3: to say what you really think, that have these super 240 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 3: strict speech codes, I just don't see how that really 241 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 3: makes everybody safe, right if we're just it means that 242 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 3: you don't know what anybody really thinks. I mean, we 243 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 3: actually feel much safer, as you said, when you know, 244 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 3: bad guys can just come out and tell you who 245 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 3: they are. I think it's better for everybody that way. 246 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 3: And plus then we you know, have the chance to 247 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 3: hopefully dialogue with them and you know, maybe even persuade them. 248 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, some of these folks, they're very unpersuadable. But I 249 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 2: do think it's important to almost, you know, make make 250 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 2: them show their faces, make them show their ideas to 251 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 2: the world, and realize that a lot of the ideas 252 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 2: that led the world down bad paths are resurrected periodically. 253 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 2: I mean a lot of the things that the Hitlers 254 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 2: of the world would believe in or that the Paul 255 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 2: Pots of the world would believe in. Uh, those germs 256 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 2: of ideas, they still exist. Let me let me get 257 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 2: a quick call here and get the call start of 258 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 2: going to go to Justin. Yeah, Justin and Marlborough. Justin, 259 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 2: you're on with doctor Chloe Carmichael. Go right ahead, Justin. 260 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 5: Hi, doctor Carmichael and Dan, thanks for taking my call. 261 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 5: What was a movie a few years ago about a 262 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 5: man in a black man infiltrating the ku klutz Klan. 263 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 5: I don't know if it's the same person. 264 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 2: I think it very well. Maybe his name was Darryl Davis. 265 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 5: Yeah, it was a pretty cool movie, and I wanted 266 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 5: to tell you. 267 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 2: And by the way, he didn't. If I could just 268 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 2: correct one thing here, and I think doctor Carmichael will 269 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 2: agree with me. He didn't infiltrate the two Clucks claim. 270 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 2: What he did was he contacted the leaders and set 271 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:08,160 Speaker 2: up interviews, and when they met him for the interview 272 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 2: at the pre designed location, they would be a little 273 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:14,199 Speaker 2: shocked that it was a black guy that wanted to 274 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 2: interview him. And he explained very forthrightly that he wanted 275 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 2: to attend some of their rallies and find out why 276 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:23,440 Speaker 2: they felt less of him than they did of people 277 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 2: of their own race, and he actually got and doctor Carmichael, 278 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 2: you can correct me. I believe he's very proud of 279 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 2: the fact that he had like about robes, the clean 280 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 2: robes from about fifty Klean leaders who had decided to 281 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 2: because they got to know Darryl Davis, they got to 282 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 2: design to they resigned from the clan. As a matter 283 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:47,440 Speaker 2: of fact, I actually saw him do a TED talk 284 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 2: in which he had sort of a cabinet on stage 285 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 2: with him, and of course you're figuring what's in the cabinet, 286 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 2: and he built to the end of the Ted talk, 287 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:58,159 Speaker 2: which you know are always about twelve to fourteen minutes, 288 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 2: and he said, and here are some of the robes 289 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 2: that have been surrendered, uh and given to me by 290 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 2: former leaders of the Ku Klux Klan who yes, in 291 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 2: time remind go ahead, doctor Carmichael. 292 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 3: Yes, it's so powerful. And it's funny he was on 293 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 3: your show because I do mention him in my book 294 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 3: as an example of how even the worst of ideas 295 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 3: can actually, you know, be healed more so through dialogue, 296 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 3: you know, than by just pushing people's ideas underground. So 297 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:35,160 Speaker 3: I've got to it's wonderful. I got to get his book. 298 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 3: I didn't know he had one. 299 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I had it in front of me. 300 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:45,200 Speaker 3: I'm going to contact him too and tell me he's 301 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 3: in my book. 302 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's called The Clean Whisper. Is the name of 303 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 2: his book. Justin go ahead. You had a question for 304 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:52,479 Speaker 2: doctor Carmichael or a comment? 305 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:57,200 Speaker 5: Yeah, a kind of a comment question. I just wanted 306 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 5: to reflect on an experience I had. I was in 307 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:05,679 Speaker 5: college and we got to write. We were asked to 308 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 5: write our opinions on the professor getting tenure. Fifty of 309 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 5: us wrote our opinions. I was the only one to 310 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 5: write negative. Now, I was the only one to sign 311 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:20,919 Speaker 5: my name, and the economic chairman told my advisor he 312 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,400 Speaker 5: was going to take my name off it. And she 313 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 5: she said, don't you dare He takes pride in his work, 314 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 5: and if she has a problem with that, you shouldn't 315 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 5: have asked him. Now that was my sentiment, and I 316 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 5: don't like that. 317 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:37,679 Speaker 2: Did that honesty cost you in terms of your final 318 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:39,399 Speaker 2: grade from your your professor? 319 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 5: And that was the least of my worries I was. 320 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 5: They asked me a question, I answered it. They have 321 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:49,640 Speaker 5: a problem, Shame on the person asking the question. 322 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 2: To Carmichael's book Justin, because the title is can I 323 00:19:55,920 --> 00:20:00,040 Speaker 2: say that question mark Why Free Speech Matters and and 324 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 2: how to Use it Fearlessly? So you did use it fearlessly. 325 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 2: I've I hope to. 326 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:07,120 Speaker 3: Put you on the cover Justin. 327 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 5: Thank you. Oh, I'm so I'm so happy. My professor, 328 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:14,719 Speaker 5: my advisor stood up for me. And lastly, the professor 329 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:18,920 Speaker 5: Baconomic Tamman said, she instantly guess it was you. I said, 330 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 5: that's why she's made advise us. He's on the ball. 331 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 6: Yeah. 332 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:24,879 Speaker 5: That was one of my favorite memories of college. And 333 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:27,399 Speaker 5: I look forward to your book, doctor Carmichael. 334 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 4: Thank you so much. 335 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:31,640 Speaker 3: You can go to a Free Speech Today dot com 336 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,200 Speaker 3: and get it there if you like. It's everywhere books 337 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:34,639 Speaker 3: are sold. 338 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 5: Great. 339 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 2: Thank you, Thanks j justin free free Speech Today dot com. 340 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:42,439 Speaker 2: We've got to take a break news at the bottom 341 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 2: of the hour. I'll be back with doctor Chloe Carmichael, 342 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 2: her book, Can I Say That, Why Free Speech Matters 343 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 2: and How to Use It Fearlessly? Six one, seven, two, five, 344 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 2: four ten thirty six one seven, nine three one ten 345 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 2: thirty Feel free to ask a question. I would hope 346 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 2: some of you I'll there would be very encouraged to 347 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 2: think that someone like doctor Carmichael has written a book 348 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 2: like this because I think that just like in physics, 349 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:14,439 Speaker 2: every action does an equal reaction, and I think that 350 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 2: we are now beginning to see that there is a 351 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,880 Speaker 2: reaction in the best sense of the word, to some 352 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 2: of the places that we have gone as a society 353 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 2: in terms of suppressing free speech and free thought in 354 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,399 Speaker 2: the last five or so years. We'll be back on 355 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:34,159 Speaker 2: Nightside with doctor Chloe Carmichael and your phone calls right 356 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 2: after this. 357 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: It's Nightside with Boston's News Radio. 358 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 2: My guest is doctor Chloe Chamberlain. She is a psychologist, 359 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 2: a clinical psychologist, also a USA Today best selling author 360 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 2: other books. This is not your first book, but this 361 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 2: book can I say that why free speech matters and 362 00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:01,199 Speaker 2: how to use it fearlessly. We're going to go to 363 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:03,879 Speaker 2: phone calls. Continue with phone calls, but I want to 364 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 2: also ask some questions as we go along. Let me 365 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 2: let me again remind people if they want to join 366 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,439 Speaker 2: the conversation six one seven, two, five, four ten thirty 367 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 2: or six one seven, nine three one ten thirty. Let 368 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:22,119 Speaker 2: me go to Dave in Wyoming, who sometimes goes off 369 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,400 Speaker 2: topic with me a little bit. Dave, welcome, let's stay 370 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 2: on topic tonight. 371 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 7: Okay, hey guys, Yeah, I think it's kind of telling that, uh, 372 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:35,880 Speaker 7: you know, a free speech discussion even you guys, are 373 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 7: you know, saying that there are certain words people shouldn't 374 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:39,639 Speaker 7: ever be able to say. 375 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 5: And I think you've fallen into that spot. 376 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 2: That's well, that's my opinion. I don't think that's doctor 377 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:49,679 Speaker 2: Carmichael's opinion. I think she's She's very clearly distinguished my 378 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,919 Speaker 2: view from hers on that. But go ahead. 379 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 8: Yeah, It's like George Orwell once said, quote, even a 380 00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:58,680 Speaker 8: single taboo. 381 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:00,880 Speaker 5: Can have an all around crippling a fact upon. 382 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,160 Speaker 8: The mind, because there is always the danger that any 383 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 8: thought which is freely followed up may lead to the 384 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 8: forbidden thought. 385 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:10,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, great point. 386 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:13,919 Speaker 2: We understand what you're saying, Dave. What's your question for 387 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:14,919 Speaker 2: doctor Carmichael? 388 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 8: Well, do you think do you agree with me that 389 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:20,919 Speaker 8: it's better to draw the line. We must draw the 390 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 8: line between speech and action and not between good speech 391 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 8: and bad speech. 392 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,399 Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely, I do agree with you there. At the 393 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,119 Speaker 3: same time, I'm just saying that I agree with the 394 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:36,359 Speaker 3: idea that we have social norms and social taboos. But 395 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:41,640 Speaker 3: that's completely different than the government making laws about speech. 396 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 3: You know, if somebody wants to, you know, go say 397 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 3: all kinds of things like I said, they can say, 398 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 3: you know, women are stupid, you know, B words and 399 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,399 Speaker 3: broads and everything else. And even for me as a woman, 400 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:54,399 Speaker 3: I don't want to take away their legal right to 401 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 3: say it. But I just also might choose not to 402 00:23:57,480 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 3: invite them to my dinner party. So we have freedom 403 00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:02,360 Speaker 3: of speech, but we also have freedom of association. 404 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's and that is my point. You stated 405 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 2: it better than I. Uh, and that is I just 406 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 2: don't want to associate. If there are people who for 407 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:17,159 Speaker 2: some reason want to engage in blood libels against Jewish people, 408 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 2: use the N word regarding black people, I have no 409 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 2: interest in their companionship. I have no interest in a 410 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:27,440 Speaker 2: conversation with them. But but they can they can write 411 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:31,119 Speaker 2: whatever they want. They can'terface public property. There's all sorts 412 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 2: of ways in which they can express themselves. I used 413 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 2: to say to my children, Dave and doctor Carmichael, use 414 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:45,200 Speaker 2: your big words. And I would say that also to 415 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 2: you know, to anyone who I would know who would 416 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 2: engage in conversation. I would assume, Dave you you don't 417 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,680 Speaker 2: associate with people who who use the N word frequently, 418 00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 2: or do you? 419 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,159 Speaker 8: I tend not to. It's been driven underground, so it's 420 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:03,639 Speaker 8: kind of hard to know. It's kind of hard to 421 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 8: know who the real races are because it's so driven underground. 422 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 2: Well, I think that if you have somebody who's vocabulary 423 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 2: is so limited that they have to use the N 424 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,399 Speaker 2: word repeatedly, I think you can probably figure out what 425 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 2: category you want to put them in. So is there 426 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 2: another question you have for doctor Carmichael? 427 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:23,959 Speaker 8: Nothing to add but good topic. 428 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,399 Speaker 2: Thank you very much, appreciate much. That was my best 429 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 2: call with Dave from Wyoming in some time. Thanks Dave, 430 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 2: have a good weekend out there. That's that worked out fine. 431 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 2: So I want to ask you you have you have 432 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 2: your undergraduate degree from Columbia. You have taught at universities 433 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,919 Speaker 2: as when I was much younger, Uh, it was the 434 00:25:56,160 --> 00:26:02,439 Speaker 2: left on college campus that was trying to champion free speech. 435 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 2: Now that the left is running many colleges, not all. 436 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 2: There are some great college presidents around this country. I 437 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 2: think of Daniel Didemeyer and Vanderbilt as one of the 438 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:22,640 Speaker 2: pre eminent ones on free speech. Why is it that 439 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 2: college faculty are so overwhelmingly particular, and I'm not talking 440 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:34,399 Speaker 2: about faculty in math and physics or biology, but in 441 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 2: the liberal arts, Yeah, are so stratified and are so 442 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:41,639 Speaker 2: similar in terms of mindset. 443 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, I think it's a compounding problem, and I 444 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 3: think that we're, you know, kind of past a certain 445 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 3: tipping point with it. So, for example, in many psychology 446 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 3: departments it's not uncommon to have a one hundred percent 447 00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 3: liberal leaning faculty, or even in New England that faculty 448 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 3: ratio liberal to conservative is literally twenty eight to one. 449 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 3: And the thing is, you know, you mentioned this a 450 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,400 Speaker 3: couple times as well, Dan, when it comes to, you know, 451 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:16,399 Speaker 3: a social hostility of just excluding other viewpoints, which I 452 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 3: think once the faculty reaches a certain ratio, they just 453 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 3: won't let, you know, people who think differently in And 454 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 3: there's an interesting thing I describe in the book. It's 455 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 3: called the five d's. The five d's are things that 456 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:35,360 Speaker 3: people who identify as liberal by their own self report 457 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:40,200 Speaker 3: are more likely to do to conservatives over political differences 458 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 3: than conservatives to liberals. And the five d's are to 459 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:48,439 Speaker 3: defriend on Facebook to drop contact in real life or 460 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 3: distance contact in real life, to decline to date, or 461 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:57,160 Speaker 3: to disinvite a speaker. And the liberal people who endorse 462 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 3: doing that, in their minds, they believe that what they 463 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 3: are doing is virtuous in their minds. You know, we 464 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,439 Speaker 3: talked about you know, Hitler and Jews. In their minds, 465 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 3: they think it seems practically everybody is Hitler, right, And 466 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:15,640 Speaker 3: then at the same time, as you said, it's kind 467 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 3: of ironic, there's this streak of anti Semitism. But they're 468 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 3: very quick, by their own self report to drop deferent distance, 469 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 3: decline to date, or disinvite a speaker over political differences. 470 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 3: And so I think that does contribute to the echo 471 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,439 Speaker 3: chamber that you get, say at a university where you 472 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 3: have a bunch of liberal leaning people that just simply 473 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 3: stop admitting conservatives, whether as students or as faculty. 474 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 2: Well, I think the problem is faculty because obviously the 475 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 2: faculty one have to gain some status and then eventually 476 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 2: they see pig your status. So yo, if if you 477 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 2: do not fall in line with the group, think the 478 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 2: chances of you achieving that tenured status, which all fact 479 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 2: well many faculty desire. Maybe there are some who don't 480 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 2: want to be tenured. But that is a comfort level 481 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 2: that faculty members enjoy that does not enjoyed a lot 482 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 2: of other professions. I don't have a tenured status as 483 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 2: a talk show host. I function from contract to contract. 484 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 2: But that's all well and good. I'm just saying is 485 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 2: that if you know the people who are running the 486 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 2: faculty have a point of view, maybe you tend to 487 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 2: either intentionally or unintentionally mirror that point. 488 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 3: Of view totally. And you just said an important word, Dan, 489 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 3: which is group think. And it's the natural result when 490 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 3: you do have speech codes where people are doing suppression 491 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 3: and repression going into denial, it does lead exactly to 492 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 3: that group think. Dynamic and Irving Yannis, who's this psych 493 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 3: cologists who coined the term groupthink, he talked about eight 494 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 3: conditions that you know feed into groupthink. I won't go 495 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 3: through all eight of them, but one of them is 496 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 3: the illusion of unanimity. And so when people stay silent 497 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,960 Speaker 3: because they think they're the only one that realizes the 498 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 3: emperor has no clothes, then everybody else thinks that they're 499 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 3: the only one, and so people stay silent. And the 500 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 3: more that you have a group of people where everybody's 501 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,479 Speaker 3: intelligent and they just seem to all be saying, you know, 502 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 3: the sky is pink or whatever. People start doubting themselves, 503 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 3: and then the group starts proceeding as if this is 504 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 3: the actual reality because nobody's actually challenging what's obviously wrong 505 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 3: right in front of them, because of all that suppression 506 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 3: and repression and denial through those you know, lack of 507 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 3: free speech. 508 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that that is a pretty good 509 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 2: analysis of of what's going on in a lot of 510 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 2: the colleges. And I think it's self perpetuating, and I'm 511 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 2: concerned that. And I know that the Trump administration has 512 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 2: been criticized for trying to be intrusive on particularly some 513 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 2: of the Ivy League colleges. But when I think back 514 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 2: to October sixth of just now, a little over a 515 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 2: couple of years ago, that horrific weekend in Israel, and 516 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 2: I think about there was this professor at I believe 517 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 2: it was Columbia how used the word exhilarated. He actually 518 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 2: looked at the camera and said that he was exhilarated 519 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 2: by what Hamas had done. And I thought to myself, 520 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 2: how could you possibly ever come to the point of 521 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 2: view as a college professor, that this event, this horrific massacre, 522 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 2: which has echoes of a very bad time about seventy 523 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 2: five or so, more than eighty years ago. How can 524 00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 2: you can use the word exhilarated? But anyway, let's pause. 525 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 2: I got to take one more break and we get back. 526 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 2: We'll get to another caller two six, one, seven thirty. 527 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 6: Uh. 528 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 2: The book is that has been written that we're talking 529 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 2: about is written by doctor Chloe Carmichael and essentially argues 530 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 2: that free speech matters. It certainly does. We'll be back 531 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 2: on night Side right after this. 532 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 1: It's Night Side with Boston's News Radio. 533 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 2: My guess is, doctor Chloe Carmichael, can I say that 534 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 2: why free speech matters and how to use it fearlessly? 535 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 2: Jack and Newton is next. Jack, We're a little tight 536 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 2: on time. 537 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 5: Go right ahead, Yeah, how do you do it? Jack? 538 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 6: Porter? Well, what is the reason why the universities are 539 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 6: very liberal, at least the elite universities like the one 540 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 6: I'm at at Harvard is that they have many Jewish 541 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,680 Speaker 6: people as professors. And if you read the famous book 542 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 6: by Norman pod Horatz Why by a Jewish liberals, it 543 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 6: goes back to their you know, identification with the underdog, 544 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 6: et cetera. In fact, the famous phrase that Jewish people 545 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 6: live like Episcopalians, but they vote like Puerto Ricans, or 546 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 6: as we vote against our class interests because we care 547 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:10,000 Speaker 6: about the underdog. 548 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 2: Well, I also think Jack, and I think you'd agree 549 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 2: with me that twenty years ago the Jewish voters were 550 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 2: much more of a democratic block than they are today. 551 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 2: I think the recent recent polls that I have seen, 552 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 2: and particularly Donald Trump has received probably more support amongst 553 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 2: Jewish voters than many of the Republican candidates in recent 554 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 2: presidential elections. 555 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 6: Yeah, but no more than thirty percent. The Jews will 556 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 6: always be liberal, to always be Democrats, I mean, they 557 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 6: make Mike inroads. Of course, they have to be tolerant 558 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 6: of other points of view. But the universities, at least 559 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 6: the elite universities, are always going to be liberal, you know, 560 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:54,520 Speaker 6: left liberals. They will be anhing you can do about it. 561 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 2: Jack, I don't know if you consider yourself a liberal. 562 00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 2: I know you pretty well. 563 00:33:58,200 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 4: Well. 564 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 6: I'm I've left liberal, you left. 565 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 2: Of liberal, Okay. Well, the fact that you're saying it 566 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,719 Speaker 2: that way is interesting because I know I've talked to 567 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 2: you in other nights when you had positions that were 568 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:16,880 Speaker 2: not left of liberal. But that's fine. I don't necessarily 569 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:21,799 Speaker 2: think that universities will always be liberal, and I think 570 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 2: that there are some universities. I saw that Conda Lisa 571 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 2: Rice spoke yesterday at Brown University. I'm stunned that Condy 572 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,279 Speaker 2: Rice was allowed to even walk onto the campus at 573 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 2: Brown University, which you know, makes Harvard Harvard look like, 574 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 2: you know, like a right wing passion. 575 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 6: At Kennedy School invites under the late Citie Warren, for example, 576 00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 6: all kinds of conservative politicians that. 577 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:58,799 Speaker 2: That's a graduate, that's a graduate program. Hold on, hold on, Jack, 578 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 2: the guest would like to add ask you a question. 579 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,520 Speaker 3: Go ahead, Thank you, Jack. I actually had a question 580 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,279 Speaker 3: for you. I gather that you're saying that you are 581 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 3: a Jewish person and you identify, as you said, left 582 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:14,080 Speaker 3: of liberal. So I noticed that thirty percent of Jews 583 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:18,720 Speaker 3: in New York City voted for Mom Donnie as mayor, 584 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 3: and as a former New Yorker myself, I have to 585 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:25,439 Speaker 3: say I was a little surprised by that. But I mean, 586 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 3: does that surprise you. I'm just curious. 587 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:28,839 Speaker 6: I'll explain it. 588 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:36,920 Speaker 2: You don't have to explain it, Jack, because the main gap, Jack, younger, 589 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:39,560 Speaker 2: the younger Jews are voting for Mom Donnie. 590 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 6: The older Jewish voted for the big generational gap. 591 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:45,439 Speaker 3: True, that's true. 592 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:48,040 Speaker 6: Yeah, that's the that's the reason. 593 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:49,919 Speaker 3: Thank you, Jack. 594 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 2: Okay, okay, Jack, appreciate you call. We'll talk again. Thank 595 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 2: you very much. Let me go to Joyce and Bill record. Joyce, 596 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:01,439 Speaker 2: you went next town Knightsiger right ahead, by the way. 597 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 2: I just I just looked it up, if I could 598 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:08,240 Speaker 2: excuse me, Joyce, Jack is incorrect. In the twenty twenty 599 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:12,759 Speaker 2: four election, approximately not thirty percent, thirty five percent of 600 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:16,759 Speaker 2: Jewish voters supported Donald Trump, making it the highest percentage 601 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:23,560 Speaker 2: for Republicans Sataday since the nineteen eighties. This significance. Yeah, 602 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,720 Speaker 2: so that's the actual figure. Go right ahead, Joyce. 603 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 4: Well that's a sad statistics. But no, I just want 604 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 4: to make sure that she gets like on Jimmy Kimmel 605 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:39,279 Speaker 4: or Steve Colbert because the kids, the college kids will 606 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,799 Speaker 4: listen to that. And when you go to college, that's 607 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 4: when you get your voice, that's when you get to 608 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,640 Speaker 4: do things. So I'm hoping she gets out there, and 609 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:51,319 Speaker 4: you know, I wish I had connections, but I don't. 610 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,279 Speaker 3: Thanks Joey if I appreciate that, Thank you for your 611 00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:55,239 Speaker 3: vote of confidence. 612 00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 2: What you might be interested in doing, Joyce, in all 613 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,279 Speaker 2: honesty is I think you'd enjoyed the book. Can I 614 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:04,839 Speaker 2: say that why free speech matters and how to use 615 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:12,799 Speaker 2: it fearlessly? Oh, Joyce? Did we lose Joyce here? I 616 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 2: think Joyce was saying she intends to buy the book. 617 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,560 Speaker 3: Well, I hope, so thanks Dan for for the shout 618 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:20,200 Speaker 3: out there on the book. I appreciate that. 619 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,560 Speaker 2: Did we lose Joyce there? Yeah? We did. Unfortunately, sometimes 620 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:31,040 Speaker 2: you lose folks. It's it's interesting. I run a talk 621 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,040 Speaker 2: show here in which I encourage all points of view 622 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 2: yah to come on this program, and I do it 623 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,600 Speaker 2: out of self interest. To be honest with you, I'm 624 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:45,400 Speaker 2: not smarter than necessarily other people. So I hope that 625 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:49,200 Speaker 2: more and more people. I want to make my show 626 00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 2: as big as possible, and I want people to feel 627 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:54,839 Speaker 2: comfortable here. And the only thing I ask is a 628 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,440 Speaker 2: civil conversation. If somebody calls up and they can't engage 629 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:02,880 Speaker 2: in a conversation and they're consistently interruptive, the technique that 630 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:05,839 Speaker 2: I used doctor Carmichael, As I say look, you don't 631 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:09,640 Speaker 2: want a conversation, I'll give you thirty seconds ago, and 632 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:13,920 Speaker 2: in most cases they can't put a sentence together and 633 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:19,120 Speaker 2: then it's a quick good night. But I have a 634 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,520 Speaker 2: lot of listeners on this show who disagree with me, 635 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:26,160 Speaker 2: and a great callers, and you were always welcome here, 636 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 2: and please keep in touch. I'd love to have you back. 637 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:31,719 Speaker 2: I think that you are a breath of fresh air 638 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:33,920 Speaker 2: in this book. Can I say that why free speech 639 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,840 Speaker 2: matters and how to use it fearlessly? If I was 640 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:42,440 Speaker 2: a professor at Harvard, I would be assigning this book 641 00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:46,560 Speaker 2: to every incoming student at Harvard because I think. 642 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,839 Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much, Dan, I really appreciate that. 643 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 3: You know, Columbia University did just have me on to 644 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:53,399 Speaker 3: speak about it. 645 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,360 Speaker 7: Actually, who did that? 646 00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:58,759 Speaker 3: Columbia University. They just had me on to do a 647 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 3: little webinar about this book. So I think they are 648 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:04,160 Speaker 3: starting to open up a little bit. 649 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:08,680 Speaker 2: Well. I think Columbia is also a CBS just hired 650 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:14,840 Speaker 2: Barry weissas department I was frustrated tonight watching ABC News, 651 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:18,640 Speaker 2: for example, which I watch every night. That's my network 652 00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 2: news of choice. Even as a former CBS television reporter, 653 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:28,279 Speaker 2: for many years. They do great jobs on factual stories. 654 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 2: The story tonight that most disappointed me was they talked 655 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,680 Speaker 2: about how Chuck Schumer has tried to open up the 656 00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:39,319 Speaker 2: government by offering a compromise to the Republicans, and there 657 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,680 Speaker 2: was no context, no context given that the Democrats have 658 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:46,160 Speaker 2: voted uniformly in the Senate to keep the government closed 659 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:48,720 Speaker 2: and the Republicans have been the ones open to voting 660 00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 2: to open up the government. And if you were an 661 00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,719 Speaker 2: average person looking at that, you'd say, isn't that great 662 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,279 Speaker 2: Chuck Schumer wants to open up the government. It was 663 00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:02,640 Speaker 2: a disgraceful exercise eyes of lack of journalism for ABC 664 00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:04,520 Speaker 2: World News tonight. 665 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:06,200 Speaker 3: So that does sound misleading? 666 00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:10,680 Speaker 2: Oh, totally totally, doctor Carmichael, Thank you so much for 667 00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:13,239 Speaker 2: your time. I really enjoyed our conversation and I'd love to. 668 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:13,560 Speaker 4: Do it here. 669 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:15,920 Speaker 3: Thank you so much. Thanks again, and people can go 670 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,560 Speaker 3: to free Speech Today dot com if they want to 671 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,080 Speaker 3: do more and connect with me on social media or 672 00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:23,600 Speaker 3: anything else, Dan, So thanks again for having me. 673 00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:27,480 Speaker 2: My pleasure anytime, Doctor Chloe Carmichael, can I say that 674 00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:30,360 Speaker 2: why free speech matter, said how to use it fearlessly? 675 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,560 Speaker 2: We'll talk again thanks very much, doctor Carmichael. Well we 676 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:35,880 Speaker 2: come back, we go to the twentieth hour, and the 677 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,080 Speaker 2: question of the night is going to be pretty simple. 678 00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,600 Speaker 2: The question of the night is going to be I 679 00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:42,799 Speaker 2: don't care how old you are, where do you want 680 00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:46,560 Speaker 2: to retire? In why it's a challenging question. I want 681 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:48,799 Speaker 2: you to think about it and light up the phone lines. 682 00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:49,960 Speaker 2: Coming back on nightside