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Speaker 1: This is a podcast from wor Now the wr Saturday

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Speaker 1: Morning Show.

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Speaker 2: Here's Larry Minty.

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Speaker 1: Welcome this Saturday morning, and thanks for listening. Jeffrey Littman

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Speaker 1: is a high profile criminal defense attorney who has defended

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Speaker 1: drug kingpin El Chapo and his family. So did he

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Speaker 1: get a call from Nicholas Maduro and his wife, who

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Speaker 1: are in a New York jail on narco terrorism charges. Jeffrey,

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Speaker 1: I know you've been in the position of defending a

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Speaker 1: narco terrorist in the past, and so I'm surprised you

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Speaker 1: didn't get a phone call.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, maybe I did, oh, you know, but no,

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Speaker 2: it's actually this this is an interesting case. It would

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Speaker 2: have been something I definitely would have considered taking. And

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Speaker 2: who knows, you know, maybe one day I'll be on

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Speaker 2: the case. But it's an interesting case. It's an exciting case.

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Speaker 2: It's a scary case as a defense lawyer, because you've

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Speaker 2: got the entire world literally staring at you, and most

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Speaker 2: of them are screaming at you. But sometimes it's better

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Speaker 2: to just sit on the outside and watch it as well.

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Speaker 1: You say it's an interesting case and explain that what

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Speaker 1: do you see. I don't want you to help other

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Speaker 1: defense attorneys, and I know that you have said you

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Speaker 1: may still be involved. What can you say what's so

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Speaker 1: interesting about it to you?

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, look, you've got the president of another country,

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Speaker 2: even if he's we believe he's illegitimate, snatched out of

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Speaker 2: his bed at night and prosecuted, and you've got the

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Speaker 2: you know, every statement that the president makes can be

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Speaker 2: used by the defense potentially in the trial. You know,

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Speaker 2: where he's saying, the reasons why he did it. You know,

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Speaker 2: you can sort of use all of those things in

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Speaker 2: crafting your defense to show that this whole thing is

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Speaker 2: is fake, that the reasons why he was arrested weren't

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Speaker 2: the right ones, that this was basically a dirty prosecution.

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Speaker 2: As a defense lawyer, what you want to do is, look,

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Speaker 2: the evidence may be overwhelming. I don't know. I haven't

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Speaker 2: seen the drop of but I doubt that the defense

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Speaker 2: lawyers on the case have seen a drop of it yet.

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Speaker 2: But what you want to do is try to infect

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Speaker 2: the government's case to the jury. Keep in mind, Larry,

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Speaker 2: that the jury, half of them, based on the numbers

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Speaker 2: of the mayoral election, support a guy like mom Donnie,

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Speaker 2: who is going to trash this government's case for the

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Speaker 2: next year or two until it actually goes to trial.

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Speaker 2: So you've got people on this jury that very possibly

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Speaker 2: are going to be sensitive to any defense position that

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Speaker 2: I put forth if I was the lawyer, So you

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Speaker 2: know going into this that you got a shot. Even

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Speaker 2: if the evidence is overwhelming, it is surely just based

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Speaker 2: on jury nullification. So this is something. Also the fact

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Speaker 2: that the government has not indicted Maduro anyplace else if

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Speaker 2: somehow there's no conviction here, and it's very possible based

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Speaker 2: on the what the jury is going to look like,

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Speaker 2: what's the government gonna do with them? They're going to

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Speaker 2: keep trying them. I mean I had this with Gotti.

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Speaker 2: They couldn't convict him, you know, after four trials, So

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Speaker 2: it's possible and let and which is why I think

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Speaker 2: there's going to be another indictment of Maduro in a

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Speaker 2: red state. I think they're insane to leave it just

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Speaker 2: in New York with Mamdani, who's going to be trashing,

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Speaker 2: as I said, the government for the next couple of years.

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Speaker 2: You know, all of those things, and also the legality

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Speaker 2: of this that makes it very interesting. This is unprecedented.

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Speaker 2: When is the American government to snatch somebody out of

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Speaker 2: his bed. I mean, this is not like Noriega, where

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Speaker 2: you know, theoretically we were at war with Panama at

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Speaker 2: the time. This is not the same situation here.

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Speaker 1: No, and I think it was purposely not the same

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Speaker 1: situation to make it. So they were saying it was

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Speaker 1: a legal action, not an actor of war, not an

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Speaker 1: active war. And that's the reason they are.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they're saying they were just enforcing an arrest.

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Speaker 1: Warrant, right exactly. And it's funny, you are like a soothsayer.

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Speaker 1: Ron De Santis said last night that he's going to

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Speaker 1: bring charges in Florida. They're working on it.

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Speaker 2: They're going to have them soon.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, there's your red state.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, and look, I think that some of

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Speaker 2: the things that Trump is saying. Look, it's also very difficult.

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Speaker 2: And again I voted for Trump, and I'm against drugs,

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Speaker 2: even though I'm a criminal defense lawyer. He's saying, you know,

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Speaker 2: or drugs, drugs, drugs. We can't have this garbage in

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Speaker 2: our country. We've got to stop it. We've got to

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Speaker 2: protect the Americans. You know. A couple of months ago,

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Speaker 2: he pardoned the president of Honduras, who was sitting rotting

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Speaker 2: in a jail cell for forty five years for being

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Speaker 2: a narco terrorist. He pardoned the head of the Silk

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Speaker 2: Road dark web who's had a life sentence for dealing

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Speaker 2: humongous amounts of drugs. So the idea that this is

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Speaker 2: about drugs, respectfully, give me a break. It's just it's

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Speaker 2: completely it's just a lie. Let me get back to

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Speaker 2: the case against him. The government keeps saying now that

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Speaker 2: he is not the legitimate president of Venezuela. He ignored

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Speaker 2: two free and fair elections. He just took control of

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Speaker 2: the country. Will that stand in court? Well, that was

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Speaker 2: tried by Noriega's defense claim that you can't snatch we

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Speaker 2: have immunity as the head of another country. I think

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Speaker 2: that that's what the government said back then. We didn't.

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Speaker 2: We never recognized him as the president. And with regard

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Speaker 2: to Maduro, I mean, there's pretty clear evidence that he

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Speaker 2: stole the election. I'm sure the defense will try it,

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Speaker 2: and normally I would say I think it's one hundred

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Speaker 2: percent that it would fail. But you've got Alvin Hellerstein,

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Speaker 2: the judge, ninety two year old judge. Forget that he's

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Speaker 2: not a big Trump fan. At all. This guy is

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Speaker 2: a slave to the law. He's certainly not a conservative.

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Speaker 2: I would not be shocked if a ninety two year

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Speaker 2: old guy who does not like Trump that he says, Hey,

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Speaker 2: what the hell do I have to lose and throws

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Speaker 2: out the case. It would not.

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Speaker 1: Shock me, really, because you're the first person I've heard

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Speaker 1: say that. Everybody thought it was a fat a complete

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Speaker 1: all of these legal analysts. That's really surprising to me,

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Speaker 1: only because of what others have said. But I trust you.

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Speaker 1: Do you know that. Have you been in front of

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Speaker 1: this guy before?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, I mean I've had him in a dozen cases.

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Speaker 2: I really like him. Look, he's a very, very tough judge.

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Speaker 2: He's incredibly sharp. It's almost hard to believe that he's

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Speaker 2: ninety two when you're in front of him, because the

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Speaker 2: guy doesn't miss a thing. But he's Look, he's known,

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Speaker 2: at least personally, to be a liberal. He's gone up

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Speaker 2: against Trump with some things about deporting some of the

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Speaker 2: Gaza protesters he stopped at last year. I would not

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Speaker 2: be shocked. Again, he's ninety two years old, Larry, You know,

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Speaker 2: I would think, Look, the law is it could probably

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Speaker 2: go either way. I think it probably falls on the

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Speaker 2: side of the government in favor of the government on

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Speaker 2: this one, based on the Noriega case. But again, ninety

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Speaker 2: two year old guy, he's not a big fan of Trump.

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Speaker 2: It's certainly possible. He's always been a slave to the law.

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Speaker 2: When I've been in front of him, the guy doesn't

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Speaker 2: budge an inch off of the law. But like, you know,

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Speaker 2: come on, look at human nature. Ninety two year old guy,

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Speaker 2: he may want to go out with a hurrah.

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Speaker 1: I was listening to Jonathan Turlie talk about these cases

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Speaker 1: as he's been involved in these cases before, and he says,

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Speaker 1: for the defense since a nightmare because you constantly have

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Speaker 1: to go to a skiff to look at the information

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Speaker 1: that you need to look at the evidence that the

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Speaker 1: government has. And he said, because of that, it's a

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Speaker 1: laborious process. Because of that, and because of all of

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Speaker 1: the challenges that will be made on that evidence, we

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Speaker 1: may not see a trial for a year and a half.

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Speaker 2: Is that right? Well, it could be even longer. I

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Speaker 2: mean it could be even longer. With Chapo Guzman, I

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Speaker 2: had to go see him in a tiny little area

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Speaker 2: of the MCC which has now been closed because they

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Speaker 2: kept him in you know, complete isolation. He didn't speak

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Speaker 2: any any English, he wasn't an educated guy, and most

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Speaker 2: of the discovery he was not even allowed to have

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Speaker 2: a possession of I mean, he was absolutely brutal preparing

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Speaker 2: for that case. And by the way, I finally got

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Speaker 2: retained and brought in in August, and I had to

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Speaker 2: give the opening statement in November of twenty eighteen. The

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Speaker 2: challenges are off the chart. It's something that you're complete

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Speaker 2: your life is this case. Oh and by the way,

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Speaker 2: you know, you open up your emails and there's five

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Speaker 2: threats of your life every day. There are people that

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Speaker 2: are outside of your office that the police are calling

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Speaker 2: up as a disturbance outside your office. Somebody's trying to

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Speaker 2: come up. You know, this is the kind of stuff

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Speaker 2: that happens. But look, if you're a defense lawyer and

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Speaker 2: you run from a case like this, you're in the

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Speaker 2: wrong profession. You know you need to have you know,

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Speaker 2: really iron you know, a real iron set below. If

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Speaker 2: you want to do something like this for a living.

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Speaker 1: Well, if you get that phone call, we hope you

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Speaker 1: still come on the show.

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Speaker 2: Of course, Larry, would I ever, you know, not come

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Speaker 2: and do your show? Never good?

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Speaker 1: What I wanted to hear that's the kind of loyalty

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Speaker 1: I love.

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Speaker 2: Thanks a lot, Jeffrey.

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Speaker 1: Jeffrey Lickman, high profile criminal defense attorneys with us every

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Speaker 1: Wednesday at seven oh five.

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Speaker 2: This has been a podcast from wor