1 00:00:01,639 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to get connected with Nina del Rio, a weekly 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: conversation about fitness, health and happenings in our community on 3 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: one OZHO six point seven light FM. 4 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 2: Welcome and thank you for listening to get connected. Transgender 5 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:19,119 Speaker 2: athletes in sports it's a political lightning rod. In the 6 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 2: last few years. Even though trans athletes only account for 7 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 2: about one percent of all sports participants, hundreds of bills 8 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 2: banning trans athletes have been introduced by politicians, and the 9 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:32,159 Speaker 2: US Supreme Court is preparing to hear two cases on 10 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 2: the issue. My guest is Ellie Rocher, writer, former coach, 11 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:39,639 Speaker 2: and co author of the book Fair Game, Trans Athletes 12 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 2: and the Future of Sports. Ellie Roscher, thank you for 13 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 2: being on the show. 14 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. 15 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 2: In Fair Game, Ellie Roscher, along with co authors Chris 16 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 2: Moser and doctor Anna Bath, address the myths and fears 17 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 2: behind trans athletes exclusion from organized sports with the latest 18 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 2: data and research and with interviews from twenty trans athletes. 19 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:06,119 Speaker 2: So starting around twenty nineteen, a handful of trans people 20 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 2: participating in sports came under scrutiny, and by twenty twenty four, 21 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:13,399 Speaker 2: twenty six states had introduced anti trans sports bills. We're 22 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 2: going to get into detail, but what do you think 23 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 2: the frenzy has really been driven by? 24 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 4: Oh, the speed, right, the speed of this is something 25 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 4: we have to talk about because I think when we 26 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:28,479 Speaker 4: move so quickly, it's really really easy to transfer folks 27 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 4: anxiety into fear. So there's this very strong story all 28 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 4: of a sudden that there are so many transathletes who 29 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:40,199 Speaker 4: are coming to steal metals and do harm, and that's 30 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 4: absolutely not what's going on. But that story has taken 31 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 4: hold and has turned itself into bills where there's just 32 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 4: so many more bills than there actually are trans athletes. 33 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 2: It was stunning to me. I think it's right at 34 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 2: the beginning of the book. When you started this project 35 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 2: with your co authors in twenty twenty three, you spoke 36 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 2: with twenty transgender athletes ranging from ages eight fifty nine 37 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 2: youth to professional. All of them could compete in twenty 38 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 2: twenty three. It's two years later and a little bit 39 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 2: of change, and only five of those people are still 40 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 2: legally able to compete in sports. 41 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 4: Yes, yes, and I believe that play is a human 42 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 4: rights that we do better when we get to play 43 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 4: in community, and so this book is really coming out 44 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 4: strongly against the bank blanket bands. We're seeing that these 45 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 4: statements of like, no trans athletes can participate in sport 46 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:38,519 Speaker 4: and it's just not savvy. There's ways forward to create 47 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 4: participation for play, and of course we have to think 48 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 4: about people's age and the level of play. There is 49 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 4: a difference between an elite woman who's competing in the 50 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:52,920 Speaker 4: Olympics and a kid who wants to play or an 51 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 4: adult that wants to play reck soccer. So can we 52 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,519 Speaker 4: look at the stakes, can we look at the age, 53 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 4: Can we look at the gender and sex and look 54 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:05,520 Speaker 4: at the sport and create policies that are a little 55 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 4: bit more savvy, more nuanced, and are creating more ways 56 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 4: for more people to be able to play. 57 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 2: And I think you would also argue to talk to 58 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 2: trans athletes instead of just about them. 59 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 3: Absolutely, So doctor Bates. 60 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 4: Did a media study and of the articles that talk 61 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 4: about trans athletes, less than eight percent mention a trans 62 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:31,399 Speaker 4: athlete and less than two percent quote them. So we're 63 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 4: talking about trans athletes without talking to them. And that's 64 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 4: one of the things that we are up to in 65 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 4: fair Game is let's ask trans athletes what their embodied 66 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 4: experience of the world is, and so instead of this 67 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 4: story that has been created and taken hold in society, 68 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 4: can we ask them what their story is and. 69 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 3: Take their experience seriously. 70 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 2: I think I'd like to start with talking about the 71 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 2: experience of a boy, to begin with a trans boy, 72 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 2: because so much of the conversation is really about trans girl. 73 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 2: I do want to talk about that. That's a huge thing. 74 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 2: And let's talk about trans boys for a moment and 75 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 2: do specifically. He's a young weightlifter, a trans boy, living 76 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 2: in a state where by law, he must compete as 77 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 2: a girl. 78 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 3: That's right, that's right. 79 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:18,039 Speaker 4: So he identifies as a trans boy, but he lives 80 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 4: in a state where he has to compete in the 81 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 4: category that's. 82 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:22,280 Speaker 3: Listed on his birth certificate. 83 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 4: So he is wanting to compete against boys, and he's 84 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:29,480 Speaker 4: forced to compete against girls. It makes him so uncomfortable, 85 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,919 Speaker 4: it makes the girl so uncomfortable. He's winning, but he 86 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 4: doesn't want to see his name at the top of 87 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:38,679 Speaker 4: the girl's category. He wants to be wrestling with boys, 88 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:43,159 Speaker 4: and we just don't hear that story very often. Oftentimes, 89 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 4: non barinary athletes and trans boys and men kind of 90 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 4: are disappeared in this conversation. There's this laser focus on 91 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 4: trans girls and trans women. But when you see these 92 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 4: blanket bands of all transathletes, trans boys and transmn are 93 00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:58,919 Speaker 4: some of the athletes that are being affected by that. 94 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,799 Speaker 2: Is Ellie Roscher. She's author of Remarkable Rose, The Embodied Path, 95 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 2: Twelve Tiny Things, Play Like a Girl, and How Coffee 96 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 2: Saved My Life. Her new book is Fair Game, Trans 97 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 2: Athletes and the Future of Sports, along with co authors 98 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 2: Chris Moser and doctor Annabeth. You're listening to get connected 99 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 2: on one oh six point seven light FM. I'm Nina 100 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:23,599 Speaker 2: del Rio. So a baseline for the strictness from anti 101 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:28,280 Speaker 2: trans voices is the assumption that quote biological men are 102 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:33,719 Speaker 2: built to physically outperform quote biological women. What does the 103 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 2: science say. 104 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 3: Mm hmm. 105 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 4: Well, this is so tricky because the science is really inconclusive, 106 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 4: and one of the reasons is that we historically have 107 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 4: not cared about female bodies or trans bodies, and so 108 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 4: we don't have good data at the moment about transbodies 109 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 4: as it pertains. 110 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 3: To athletic performance. 111 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:00,080 Speaker 4: So what we're talking about here, folks are wanting to 112 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 4: kind of laser focus in on testosterone. Testosterone is really interesting. 113 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:08,840 Speaker 4: It has its own cultural story. But our testosterone levels 114 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:11,840 Speaker 4: change throughout our day and they change throughout our lifetime. 115 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 4: So to get really good data on testosterone, we're gonna 116 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:18,159 Speaker 4: have to do long term studies, and we just don't 117 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 4: have those numbers yet. The best thing we can say 118 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 4: is that it's a little bit inconclusive that there's a 119 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:31,040 Speaker 4: correlation between testosterone levels and athletic competitive performance. There's different 120 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 4: types of strength, and that's why we talk about having 121 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 4: different policies for different sport. The ability to jump high 122 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 4: is a different type of strength than the ability to 123 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 4: run fast, And honestly, we just don't know our testosterone 124 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 4: levels unless they're tested. There's an overlap of testosterone between 125 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 4: CIS women and SIS men, and again it changes depending. 126 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 3: On where you're at in your life process. 127 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 4: And a lot of these studies have been done to 128 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 4: folks who are over the age of thirty five, like 129 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:06,480 Speaker 4: the studies that are used to make these policies, and 130 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 4: most athletes who are competing competitively are under the age 131 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 4: of thirty five, right, So when we're talking about trans 132 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 4: youth and if it's fair for them to compete, it's 133 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 4: just extremely complicated, and. 134 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 3: We don't have enough. 135 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 4: There's human variance that it's not accounted for in this 136 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 4: two bucket sex segregated system in our sports world. So 137 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 4: there's a bunch of bodies sis and trans that don't 138 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 4: fit into those two buckets even like perfectly, and their 139 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 4: bodies are being posed as the problem instead of our system. 140 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 2: You make me think of two stories you talk about 141 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 2: in the book of Olympic level athletes, Castor Semena and 142 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 2: Pedro Spajari, who are determined to be intersex. So they're 143 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 2: born neither male nor female, and when that information comes 144 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 2: to light, nobody quite knows what to do with it totally. 145 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 4: So we're find the more we're finding out about bodies, 146 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 4: the more we're finding out that sex is extremely complicated. 147 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 3: I think that's good news, you know. 148 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 4: I think our bodies are complicated and sports are complicated. 149 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 4: But when we go to try to maintain the female category, 150 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 4: we're finding it more and. 151 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 3: More difficult to do so. So in the. 152 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 4: History of kind of policing the female category, we've seen 153 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 4: everything from nude parades where folks have to show their 154 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 4: genitalia right, which is horribly invasive, and then we went 155 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 4: to chromosome passports where you had to prove what your 156 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 4: chromosomes are. 157 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 3: Our chromosomes are. 158 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 4: Very complicated and there's a lot of variance there, and 159 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 4: now we're focused on testosterone, and it just is it's 160 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 4: too simple. We have to let the complicated things be complicated. 161 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 4: And our what makes us either male or female is 162 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:54,559 Speaker 4: extremely complicated, and we need our policies to reflect that. 163 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 2: One of the policies you cite in the book to 164 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 2: or a proposed policy as Florida has proposed period tracking 165 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 2: in schools to indicate gender totally, which is very disturbing. 166 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:07,719 Speaker 2: Why would you argue that transgender bands in general lead 167 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 2: to more policing of even CIS women and girls. 168 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 3: That's right. 169 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 4: So when we're again, we're not worried about trans boys 170 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 4: and men. When we're talking about this, we're talking about 171 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 4: trans girls and women. And so what we're talking about 172 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 4: is maintaining the female category, which is going to put 173 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:30,319 Speaker 4: pressure on women trans and cis who are not obedient 174 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 4: to our idea of what feminine is. So my body 175 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 4: in particular is a little bit interesting because there's ways 176 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:41,319 Speaker 4: that my body is obedient. I'm small, i have long 177 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 4: blonde hair, I'm white, right, I wear makeup that calms 178 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 4: people and makes them feel like I'm female. But if 179 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 4: we bring period tracking into it, I was a gymnast 180 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 4: through college and I didn't get my period, So if 181 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:55,559 Speaker 4: we're using period. 182 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 3: Tracking, I would fail that test, right. 183 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 4: And so when we historically have tried to maintain the 184 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:07,679 Speaker 4: female category in sport, that puts inordinate pressure on women 185 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 4: of color and women who don't perform what we think 186 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 4: of as the feminine ideal. And a lot of those 187 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 4: women are CIS women. So we saw this even in 188 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:23,959 Speaker 4: the Paris Games, right where we accused a CIS woman 189 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 4: boxer of being a man and she had to prove 190 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 4: that she was a woman. And anytime we're putting that 191 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 4: kind of pressure on SIS women, participation goes down. So 192 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 4: we're seeing in the United States that the states that 193 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 4: are the most trans inclusive also have the highest participation 194 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 4: rate of CIS girls and women. And so these GOP 195 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 4: policymakers who are saying we're doing this to protect CIS 196 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 4: and CIS girls and women, the numbers are just not 197 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 4: showing that. 198 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,679 Speaker 2: If we're going to talk about the assumed physical advantage 199 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 2: for trans athletes, as you write in the book, we 200 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 2: also need to look at the fact that there are 201 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 2: arguably mental, emotional, and physiological advantages to being SIS, a 202 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 2: person whose gender identity corresponds to the sex they have 203 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 2: been assigned at birth. 204 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:15,839 Speaker 3: That's exactly right. 205 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 4: So we ask folks to think about their favorite athletes, 206 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:23,199 Speaker 4: you know, a Simone Bios or Michael Phelps, who just excel. 207 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:26,559 Speaker 5: We kind of love that sport is unfair. We kind 208 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 5: of love that there are some bodies that are like 209 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:31,079 Speaker 5: you were made to be a gymnast, Simone Bios, right, 210 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 5: Like your body is so amazing at this sport. And 211 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 5: we're gonna argue that one of those competitive advantages is 212 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 5: that that athlete is SIS. Because when we talked these 213 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 5: twenty trans athletes in the book, there is really a 214 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 5: lot of internal strife that happens by sensing there's something 215 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 5: different about me. 216 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 3: I don't know what it is. 217 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 4: And they have different expirit embodied experiences of if sport 218 00:11:57,160 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 4: is their place of escape, or if sport is a 219 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 4: place where they're put under a microscope and that's going 220 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 4: to affect their performance. So we're not seeing that trans 221 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 4: athletes are winning. The people who are winning are the 222 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 4: people who can afford great coaching great facilities. There are 223 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 4: people who have tend to have two parents and a 224 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 4: really stable household. So if we want to talk about 225 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 4: fairness and sport, we also have to talk about money, 226 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 4: and we also have to talk about race, right, and 227 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 4: so just really focusing in on this one aspect of 228 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 4: competitive advantage is not backed by by science, and it's 229 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 4: not backed by the numbers that we're seeing about who's 230 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 4: winning and who's not. 231 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 2: What are some sports that could drop gender categories without 232 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 2: drama totally. 233 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 4: So we interviewed an ultra runner, so huge long trail races, 234 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 4: and in that sport in particular, she talked about how 235 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 4: gender kind of falls away at these really rigorous endurance 236 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 4: sports men and women compete together, and so she started 237 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 4: a nonprofit to try to put pressure on these races 238 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 4: of like what if we just let runners run, you know, 239 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 4: and and see what happens. There are different sports, for example, powerlifting, 240 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 4: where you could it's a body and a bar, and 241 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 4: so a lot some of these sports, the way that 242 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 4: you could do it is body weight versus weight that 243 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 4: you're lifting. But then we see things like CrossFit making 244 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 4: a feminine bar and a masculine bar, making a you know, 245 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 4: a woman's category and a man's category where it could 246 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:37,560 Speaker 4: just be bodies competing against themselves to see what they're capable. 247 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 3: Of doing in weight categories. 248 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 4: I also think about sports like Ultimate frisbee is doing 249 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 4: really really interesting things. The different there's mixed gender teams 250 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 4: where we're just we're athletes on a field who are 251 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:54,320 Speaker 4: going to pair up and defend each other, defend each 252 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:58,079 Speaker 4: other and uh and not say if they're male or female, 253 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 4: if they're a woman or a man, but the and 254 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 4: there's also women's Ultimate teams that are being really really 255 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 4: open to anyone, just like just come play, let's have fun. 256 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 4: And again, I think we have to bring recreational sport 257 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 4: into this conversation, that that conversation can be separate than 258 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 4: the conversation we're having about the NCAA and the Olympics. 259 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 2: And why is it important in a local sports league 260 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 2: like your neighborhood soccer team to accept We could talk 261 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 2: about for trans people, but why is it important for 262 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 2: CIS people to have everybody involved. 263 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 4: I think one of the things I love about sport 264 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 4: is it puts you in proximity with people that you 265 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 4: might not meet otherwise, So you know, we're arguing in 266 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 4: this book, like what are we up to when we 267 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 4: play together? 268 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 3: What are we developing? 269 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 4: And I think about some of my college teammates who 270 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 4: I am so close with now. 271 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 3: Who I don't know that I would have met otherwise. 272 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 4: And so we did interview a D one soccer player 273 00:14:56,520 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 4: who now as an adult playing recreational soccer. Soccer night 274 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 4: is their worst night of the week because they are 275 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 4: misgendered on their recreational soccer team, because there's this rule 276 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 4: that there has to be two women on the field 277 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 4: at the same time, and so every Monday it's like 278 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 4: are you. 279 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 3: A woman or not? 280 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 4: And it doesn't leave room for our sex and our 281 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 4: gender to be fluid and dynamic and ever changing. We're 282 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 4: being put in boxes in a way that feels uncomfortable. 283 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 2: So what would be the first thing that needs to 284 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 2: change to support trans athletes and just make it all 285 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 2: for everybody? 286 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, when when there are low stakes, we just see 287 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 4: that the athletes know how to do it, Like, the 288 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 4: athletes know how to play together and make it safe 289 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 4: and fun and center exuberance where there's this moment where 290 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 4: everyone playing just gets to be a body in movement. 291 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 4: And I believe in that as collective liberation and getting 292 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 4: free together. That's what makes me excited, and so yes, 293 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 4: I think at the Olympic level, let's talk about what 294 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 4: sport it is, what type of strength gets centered, what's 295 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 4: going to make it the most fair. There's been a 296 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 4: lot of good policies that trans athletes are supportive of 297 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 4: right in terms of their gender affirming healthcare. But when 298 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 4: we're talking about youth sport, when we're talking about kids playing, 299 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 4: when we're talking about recreational athletes, I think we're going 300 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 4: to be okay if we just play. 301 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 2: My guest is Ellie Rocher. The book is Fair Game, 302 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 2: Trans Athletes and the Future of Sports. Thank you for 303 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 2: being on to Get Connected. 304 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 3: Thank you so much. 305 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 1: This has been Get Connected with Nina del Rio on 306 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: one oho six point seven light FM. The views and 307 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 1: opinions of our guests do not necessarily reflect the views 308 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: of the station. If you missed any part of our 309 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 1: show or want to share it, visit our website for 310 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 1: downloads and podcasts at one oh six to seven lightfm 311 00:16:54,760 --> 00:17:05,440 Speaker 1: dot com. Thanks for listening.