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Speaker 1: Don't want to be an American.

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Speaker 2: It's a Scott's Loan show on seven hundred WIW and

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Speaker 2: free everwhere you go with the iHeartRadio app take Us

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Speaker 2: with You podcast after the show streaming. We got You Covered.

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Speaker 2: We got you Covered on all those platforms. A mind

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Speaker 2: up boggling example of ready fire aim Chief Teresa Thiji

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Speaker 2: placed on administrative leave, paid administrator to leave at that

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Speaker 2: and an interim chief. And Adam Henny named this before

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Speaker 2: the investigation into the effectiveness of our leadership as a

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Speaker 2: city calls it that any of this happens. It's the

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Speaker 2: city is looking for a reason to fire the chief.

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Speaker 2: After they fire the chief, it just goes from bad

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Speaker 2: to worse. Too ridiculous at this point with the City

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Speaker 2: of Cincinnati, and it's a leader app to ad Pierre

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Speaker 2: Valscher along the city manager in just more confusion and

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Speaker 2: chaos when we don't need it. Steve Goodness here is

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Speaker 2: a council candidate from a council member, attorney and charter

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Speaker 2: right and with his analysis here this morning, Steve, how.

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Speaker 1: Are you Steve there?

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Speaker 2: Steve Gooden, Well wait, wait, hold on, hold on, standby,

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Speaker 2: let's go there we go. We got you awsked you. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: first day on the new job, first day on the

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Speaker 2: new job. For me, there's an irony here because it's

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Speaker 2: the executive branch's law enforcement. The irony is, of course,

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Speaker 2: there's no due process for the chief of police. This

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Speaker 2: is conviction before being charged, and on that they haven't

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Speaker 2: even hired a law firm yet.

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Speaker 1: How does this make any sense legally?

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Speaker 3: Well it doesn't. I mean, look, you know, I've had employees,

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Speaker 3: you know, for most of my career, and look, I

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Speaker 3: rule number one is, if you've got the goods on somebody,

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Speaker 3: you just go ahead and fire them, you know. And

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Speaker 3: so the idea that's here, they said, hey, well we

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Speaker 3: want you to resign. The charter clearly says that once

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Speaker 3: the chief has served more than six months, she can

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Speaker 3: only be fired for cause. So presumably, if they had

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Speaker 3: any kind of cause or bad behavior on her part

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Speaker 3: that had been documented, they would just gone ahead and

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Speaker 3: fired her and we wouldn't have this farce. So now

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Speaker 3: they're trying to create a ground, obviously, create grounds to

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Speaker 3: fire her after the fact, after they've already sort of

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Speaker 3: gone to her and asked her to resign. It is

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Speaker 3: a morale killer it's more politics that the rank and

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Speaker 3: file see this. I talked to some officers yesterday who

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Speaker 3: are just disgusted by how this is playing out. I mean,

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Speaker 3: they're already short staff, morale was already bad. And I

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Speaker 3: got to hand it to mayor and the council. They

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Speaker 3: have done the impossible. They have taken a horrible situation

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Speaker 3: and made it yet worse. I was thinking, like, there's

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Speaker 3: really no way it gets any worse. We have rampant

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Speaker 3: gun violence, business is downtown, are scared in town. We

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Speaker 3: literally have slats standing on Fountain Square. My offices right

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Speaker 3: there was there yesterday. We don't really have a police chef.

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Speaker 3: How could we make it worse? And also, yeah, I've

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Speaker 3: never seen a situation we're bringing a bunch of lawyers

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Speaker 3: in billing by the hour makes anything. Say that as

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Speaker 3: a lawyer who builds by the hour, it never makes

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Speaker 3: things better.

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Speaker 1: Here's a great example.

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Speaker 2: See here's a great example NBA scandal, the betting of

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Speaker 2: the gambling scandal.

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Speaker 1: Chauncey Billups.

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Speaker 2: Okay, how it works all always is always is All

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Speaker 2: of a sudden, there's a bombshell, Hey we're having a

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Speaker 2: press count.

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Speaker 1: Here's what's gonna happen.

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Speaker 2: It's like we caught all these players in the gambling

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Speaker 2: scheme and at the mobs involved, and you have a

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Speaker 2: press conference, you lay the charges out. On the other

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Speaker 2: side says, oh, we deny, we deny, we deny.

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Speaker 1: Uh. That's how you don't go, hey, by the way.

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Speaker 2: Uh, ch we're going to we're gonna we're gonna do this,

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Speaker 2: uh and then go and find that we're not sure

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Speaker 2: we believe they did this, and now we're gonna go

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Speaker 2: and investigate it.

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Speaker 1: It's it's completely backwards. You don't do that.

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Speaker 2: You have the charges that they make the presentation. You

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Speaker 2: don't present and say we're gonna let we're Chauncey billups,

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Speaker 2: We're we're gonna suspend you, We're gonna come after, we're

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Speaker 2: gonna charge you, but we're not going to tell you

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Speaker 2: what it is. We've got to hire a team to

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Speaker 2: do that. But we know you're guilty of something. It

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Speaker 2: just it doesn't even pass the stiff test for most people.

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Speaker 3: It's insane, right, all right, Well, it's a fundamental violation

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Speaker 3: of it, just even the most basic due process on

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Speaker 3: her part. She can't answer the charges because she doesn't

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Speaker 3: know what they are. Now we know from the mayor's

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Speaker 3: comments that they're hanging all this on her quote and effectiveness.

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Speaker 3: But what she's already telegraph very strongly is I think

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Speaker 3: she acknowledges she was uneffective, okay, because of the policy

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Speaker 3: she was given an instructed to do. I mean, we

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Speaker 3: know that city Hall and the mayor helped elect a

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Speaker 3: set of judges over in the courthouse that really didn't

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Speaker 3: believe in cash bail, so they were putting gun offenders

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Speaker 3: back on the streets rapidly, and that that contributed to

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Speaker 3: the frustration in the police department, And that she has

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Speaker 3: clearly said that she went to the mayor to try

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Speaker 3: to correct the situation and he refused. We also know

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Speaker 3: that this whole bizarre compliance versus enforcement thing on lower

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Speaker 3: level offenses came right from the city manager and the mayor.

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Speaker 3: Now I fault the chief candidly for not pushing back

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Speaker 3: more on that. So they stopped writing, uh you know,

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Speaker 3: wead tickets, stopped pursuing graffiti issues, stopped dealing with the

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Speaker 3: homeless situation downtown, and over time, the failure to prosecute

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Speaker 3: or deal with these low level offenses created a sense

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Speaker 3: of lawlessness that brought the real bad actors with guns downtown.

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Speaker 3: So we've seen that. But calling her ineffective because your

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Speaker 3: policies were ineffective, I mean, that's ridiculous. And this just

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Speaker 3: isn't the way you do things. OK. I used to

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Speaker 3: run a big law firm and there were a couple

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Speaker 3: of different instances where we had young lawyers who had

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Speaker 3: who had done bad things, and we did an investigation

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Speaker 3: and then we went to them then laid it out

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Speaker 3: and so either resign or get fired, and here are

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Speaker 3: your options. And here's what we found. Unless you have

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Speaker 3: some answer, that's how it works. This is they're trying

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Speaker 3: to make up a reason to fire after.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah yeah. And now we have a pattern

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Speaker 2: of behavior, Steve Gooden. And when it's abuse of due process,

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Speaker 2: let's go back to the July street brawl where you

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Speaker 2: had a white guy right who has started this whole

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Speaker 2: thing allegedly, and then the city come out and says, well, then,

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Speaker 2: well you know what, actually a minute forty six prior,

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Speaker 2: they were the victim of some very extreme racial attacks

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Speaker 2: and physical attacks. And this was him bass So and

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Speaker 2: you know he had the ministers crying for Whitey to

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Speaker 2: be charged all this stuff and they do that, and

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Speaker 2: it's actually Adam Henny now the interim chief oddly enough,

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Speaker 2: so you see there's some quid pro quote at least,

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Speaker 2: and I'm not demeaning Chief Henny here. I understand it's

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Speaker 2: a great cops cops cop, but again, playing the game

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Speaker 2: is that now you cast dispersions on the integrity of

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Speaker 2: the office, because like, if you're willing to write a

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Speaker 2: ticket for something you didn't witness yourself, and the officers

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Speaker 2: didn't want to get jammed up, and he said, I'll

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Speaker 2: take the bullet from my officer, so to speak, and

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Speaker 2: write the citation that led to the charges.

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Speaker 1: It's cut from the same.

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Speaker 2: Cloth, like, Okay, we're going to wait a month to

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Speaker 2: charge someone, and pretty clearly it's someone who shouldn't be charged,

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Speaker 2: but we're doing it because of political correctness and political expediency,

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Speaker 2: just like we're doing now we have a trend now.

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Speaker 3: All right, well yeah, I mean it's just what we've

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Speaker 3: done here is just it just undermines the sense of

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Speaker 3: fairness and of law and order in the town. It

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Speaker 3: really does look like the mayor and the city manager

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Speaker 3: can say, I want this guy charged, so they go

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Speaker 3: back and charge him. Whether there's evidence or not, I

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Speaker 3: don't know, but certainly you had a guy who an

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Speaker 3: officer who signed the charge, who was not involved in

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Speaker 3: the investigation, wasn't there, and it hadn't interviewed the guy

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Speaker 3: even apparently. Now you also have the scenario where they're saying,

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Speaker 3: on these low level offenses, we don't want people charge

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Speaker 3: And how do you have a city that way? We

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Speaker 3: have a charter that says our police chief and city

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Speaker 3: manager is supposed to be independent above politics. They're supposed

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Speaker 3: to be out there policing and do it, you know,

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Speaker 3: working going where the crime is, looking at real metrics

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Speaker 3: and trying to figure out what to do. And that's

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Speaker 3: what the neighborhoods are, you know, crying about, because I mean,

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Speaker 3: I mean, we don't even trust I don't trust the

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Speaker 3: data coming out of the police department in city Hall anymore.

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Speaker 3: I think it's clearly been manipulated to make the gun

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Speaker 3: violence look less. I mean, you know, from shots about

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Speaker 3: and we're on track for twenty three thousand shots fire,

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Speaker 3: but that isn't reflected in the other data.

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Speaker 2: It's clear from the top right, I mean, the two

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Speaker 2: examples I gain what you saided here too. It's like

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Speaker 2: the mayor is deciding what justice looks like. And I'm sorry,

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Speaker 2: but I wonder about those people who would support AFTAB

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Speaker 2: puricle and a heartbeat, who are down marching at the

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Speaker 2: No King's rally. Isn't this what you're allegedly fighting against?

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean, I mean, it could not be more

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Speaker 3: perfect of an analogy between Donald Trump and AFTAB. I mean,

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Speaker 3: it's exactly the same thing. It's just, you know, they're

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Speaker 3: on different sides of the aisle politically, you know, but

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Speaker 3: there is this sense on both sides that they are

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Speaker 3: like busting through some of the norms, you know, that

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Speaker 3: we have out there. Said, the critique people make of

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump is exactly the same critique that could be

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Speaker 3: made of AFTAB, which is somebody who really just doesn't

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Speaker 3: plan with the rules. And I would go a step further.

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Speaker 3: I mean, the thing that makes me the sickest is

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Speaker 3: we've had mayors in the past who have kind of

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Speaker 3: lost their way, but we've always had some diversity of

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Speaker 3: thought on city Council and some people with backbone that

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Speaker 3: we're willing to push back. These guys have been with

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Speaker 3: maybe one exception in the last twenty four hours, no

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Speaker 3: one's done anything. I mean in the old days, you

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Speaker 3: know a Chris Smitherman or a Steve Guodden or even

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Speaker 3: maybe Alsie someone you know or can you call someone

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Speaker 3: like that would have called for a hearing right a

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Speaker 3: public here and to say like what happened here? They

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Speaker 3: bring the chief, and they bring the city manager in

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Speaker 3: and say like, hey, look, you know, with the cameras on,

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Speaker 3: tell us what the hell is going on here where?

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Speaker 3: You know? And they wouldn't have just accepted this nonsense

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Speaker 3: day in and day out. So there's a lack of

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Speaker 3: oversight from council that really really makes this even worse

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Speaker 3: because I mean, they have a role in this process.

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Speaker 3: They can you know, they have the ability to shine

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Speaker 3: a flashlight here and they are hiding under their desk.

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Speaker 2: But I would point out that we're being told to

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Speaker 2: add at nauseam from a to add peer of all

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Speaker 2: in others, this is not political. She's not a political scapegoat.

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Speaker 2: The election has nothing to do with the decision. The

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Speaker 2: decisions we take public safeties are number one priorities, Like

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Speaker 2: we're taking it seriously. This is not political all. As

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Speaker 2: a matter of fact, she's not not even fired, she's

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Speaker 2: on paid administrative leave.

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Speaker 1: And there's another part.

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Speaker 2: Of the of the s absurdity Steve Gooden, is that

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Speaker 2: all right, Fiji's on paid administrative not fired. She's not

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Speaker 2: administrative leader. She's stick in a paycheck while we investigate

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Speaker 2: her over the next one. It's going to take months,

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Speaker 2: apparently to solve this. Then why name a interim chief

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Speaker 2: instead of an acting chief? If you're suspended, it's an

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Speaker 2: acting chief, like if someone's hurt. You know, Joe Flacco

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Speaker 2: is the acting starting quarterback. He is not the interim

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Speaker 2: starting There's a difference in a nuance. There is interim

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Speaker 2: chief not acting. They essentially have given it like, well

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Speaker 2: we're done with the old chief, this is the innermundle

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Speaker 2: we find a new one.

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Speaker 1: They've already stated that, and then they go back and go, well, no,

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Speaker 1: she just doesn't leave.

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Speaker 3: Well, you know what's so funny is he actually slipped

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Speaker 3: up at one of his you know, he was sort

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Speaker 3: of ambushed coming out of council chambers yesterday and I

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Speaker 3: think it was Channel twelve or one of the other

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Speaker 3: reporters asked him, you know some pretty tough questions, said, well,

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Speaker 3: whenever we move on and change leadership. It's a tough time.

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Speaker 3: And I said, okay, so you're firing her? Oh no,

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Speaker 3: I'm not saying that. And you just said we're changing leadership,

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Speaker 3: you know, And it was like, you know, you're like

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Speaker 3: you can't even keep.

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Speaker 2: Your your Live Street interim in acting, so you don't

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Speaker 2: even know what the adjective you need at this point.

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Speaker 2: It's so comically bad in the and the sad part

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Speaker 2: about this is all right, it's going to go on

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Speaker 2: in for a months, okay, so put your political hat

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Speaker 2: on here. A second, good and from the legal one, Okay,

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Speaker 2: after the election, what happens, well.

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Speaker 3: You know after the election, I mean, lou Well, first, unfortunately,

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Speaker 3: I see this dragging into the next year. Uh. And

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Speaker 3: I mean I think number one, what the first one

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Speaker 3: we got to watch for is what law firm they choose.

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Speaker 3: So if they choose one of the go to law

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Speaker 3: firms that have represented AFTAB and Council in the past

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Speaker 3: and they've gotten in trouble, we're going to know the

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Speaker 3: fixes in you know, I we're hoping to go with

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Speaker 3: someone outside the area, if you have some integrity here,

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Speaker 3: who might actually push back. But I wouldn't hold my

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Speaker 3: bread for that. So number one is we got to

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Speaker 3: watch which law firm. If it's one of these like

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Speaker 3: hyper connected democratic law firms, you know, then you know,

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Speaker 3: all bets are off as to what happens there. But

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Speaker 3: I would expect us to drag on at least through

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Speaker 3: the end of the year with us having you know,

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Speaker 3: a suspended chief and an interim chief and then some

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Speaker 3: sort of a search. If there was any integrity here,

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Speaker 3: they'd wait and see what the new council is going

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Speaker 3: to look like so that they could have some input.

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Speaker 3: But my guess is that there's going to be like

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Speaker 3: a hurry up to try to resolve all this in

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Speaker 3: December before anybody can come in and shine a light

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Speaker 3: on it.

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Speaker 1: How much longer is she under contract? How much as

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Speaker 1: you do? How long does that last?

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Speaker 3: My understanding is, and I haven't read it, but my

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Speaker 3: recollection is that they renew it every two years. And

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Speaker 3: that is where this gets funny from a legal standpoint,

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Speaker 3: is that if you recall, we have this thing called

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Speaker 3: Issue five that was passed back from two thousand and five,

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Speaker 3: which is deeply unpopular with the FOP and probably is

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Speaker 3: ripe to be revisited. That kind of takes the chief

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Speaker 3: out of some of or most of the civil service protections.

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Speaker 3: So the idea is that the Sydney Manager, with input

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Speaker 3: from the mayor, actually could just fire the chief for cause.

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Speaker 3: And that's in the charter, and it spells it out

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Speaker 3: pretty clearly that once you're in the job six months,

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Speaker 3: it's kind of a probationary period. Could be fired for

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Speaker 3: any reason. After six months, they have to actually prove

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Speaker 3: that you've screwed something up for cause. But they are,

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Speaker 3: on top of that, have apparently been issuing these two

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Speaker 3: year contracts that somehow, you know, deal with compensation and

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Speaker 3: so forth, and apparently there's language in there that contradicts

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Speaker 3: the charter. So that's why she's lawyered up and there's

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Speaker 3: going to be some sort of a court battle about

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Speaker 3: what her rights really are. And even this is a mess.

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Speaker 3: I don't know how the Law Department allowed this to happen,

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Speaker 3: where you have something in the contract that I guess

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Speaker 3: the contract doesn't mention her being fired for cause, but

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Speaker 3: yet the charter says she is. They're in conflict, and

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Speaker 3: it's the classic sort of thing that you end up,

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Speaker 3: I hate to say it, having lawyers fight out in

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Speaker 3: court in the fact that we're here and that we've

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Speaker 3: been kind of doing business this way for years, you know,

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Speaker 3: is to terrible. And again the taxpayers lose. I mean,

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Speaker 3: this is going to cost every bit of a million

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Speaker 3: dollars or about the salary and benefits of five to

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Speaker 3: six police officers the time this is all said and.

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Speaker 2: Doc, Yeah, he is a Steve Gooden counsel condidate, former

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Speaker 2: councilman and a Charter rights Steve Gooden on the ready

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Speaker 2: Fire aim approach with Fiji. She is on paid administrative leave.

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Speaker 2: They name an interim chief, not acting interim, so there's

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Speaker 2: confusion there. And now they're going to hire a law

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Speaker 2: firm that could take months of them to investigate why

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Speaker 2: they fired her in the first place.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's real life.

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Speaker 2: That's really happening in the city right now, with an

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Speaker 2: election happening, by the way, in just a couple of weeks.

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Speaker 2: And of course everyone is saying, I have to have

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Speaker 2: on down. This is not political. Is it time for

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Speaker 2: us to blow everything up? The way it works? Because

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Speaker 2: we have a very inefficient If you live in Cincinnati,

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Speaker 2: been here long til you kind of pay attention to

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Speaker 2: but our government is so inefficient and it starts the

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Speaker 2: fact there's so much overlap between Hamlin County and the

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Speaker 2: City of Cincinnati in fighting for their turf. Of course

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Speaker 2: you see stadium issues and such, but even within the

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Speaker 2: design itself. You know, you mentioned the contentious issue five,

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Speaker 2: but also how council works, how the city manager integrates

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Speaker 2: and all this stuff. Because there's cover for everyone involved.

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Speaker 2: Her council can go, well, we have a strong mayor

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Speaker 2: in the mayor goes, well, we've got a city manager.

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Speaker 2: And the city manager says, well, we've got a mayor

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Speaker 2: and a council. It's like no one, there's no one

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Speaker 2: the way we've got it wired right now, it strikes

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Speaker 2: the average person like myself, Steve Gooden, that it's wired

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Speaker 2: so there's no one accountable.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's wired so that you end up with an

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Speaker 3: absurd result, and you know, and it would work. The

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Speaker 3: current system would work. It's not perfect, but would work

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Speaker 3: better if council would just step up. If we didn't

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Speaker 3: have like a you know, an all a nine member

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Speaker 3: politically ambitious democratic city council who would actually step up

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Speaker 3: and provide some of the oversight that they are allowed

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Speaker 3: to do. But I mean to your larger point, I

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Speaker 3: have always been somebody who has been pushing for at

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Speaker 3: least some form of metro government so that we might

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Speaker 3: actually find some of these efficiencies. I mean, even Tyahoga County,

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Speaker 3: even Cleveland has gone to a limited form of metro government,

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Speaker 3: Indianapolis has, Louisville has. I mean, it's it's ridiculous that

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Speaker 3: we have all these turf battles. It's ridiculous that our

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Speaker 3: departments don't work well together. And I mean back when

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Speaker 3: I was in the prosecutors obviously as a young assistant prosecutor,

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Speaker 3: back in two thousand and one, post the Timothy Thomas

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Speaker 3: shooting and the riots that happened, we absolutely had a

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Speaker 3: level of cooperation between the city and the county then

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Speaker 3: that will be unheard of now. You know, we had

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Speaker 3: Operation Vortex. Now they were doing gun and drug sweeps

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Speaker 3: with CPD and Sheriff's patrols, I mean, and Ohio State

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Speaker 3: Patrol and it was wonderful and it really made a difference.

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Speaker 3: But now everyone is just in their silos and they

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Speaker 3: don't cooperate at all, and it's really silly. And that's

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Speaker 3: something that just desperately needs some fresh thought. And I

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Speaker 3: can tell you this current crew or that's not where

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Speaker 3: their head is. They're just all about protecting what they

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Speaker 3: have rather than trying to look at what would actually

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Speaker 3: serve the public better.

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Speaker 2: This is the maybe this is a catalyst for Steve.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, I'm trying to be optimistic here.

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Speaker 3: Well, well, I'm trying to be optimistic too. And I

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Speaker 3: think another part of it is that I'm hoping this

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Speaker 3: is the year and the timeframe where some folks in

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Speaker 3: the business community who I know have been talking for

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Speaker 3: some time about metro government and substantive reforms. I know

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Speaker 3: there's a working group down at the Chamber. It's very

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Speaker 3: quiet that they've been looking at and studying and pushing

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Speaker 3: these issues. And there's just got to come a time

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Speaker 3: where we're not not just you know, the citizens, but

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Speaker 3: the business community and all these other groups that kind

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Speaker 3: of feed in. They have to speak up on this

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Speaker 3: stuff too, I mean, because they have a right or wrong,

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Speaker 3: a louder voice, and it's been very easy for them

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Speaker 3: to kind of go along cynically and say, well, look,

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Speaker 3: you know, I have to have very you know, he's

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Speaker 3: going to win. It's a blue city, et cetera, et cetera.

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Speaker 3: And just to go along to get along, and some

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Speaker 3: people are going to have to stand up. I mean,

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Speaker 3: you know, we've been our little group has been pretty

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Speaker 3: fearless about speaking out on these issues this year. We've

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Speaker 3: paid a price for it in terms of some lost

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Speaker 3: friendships and broken business relationships. But that's fine. I mean,

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Speaker 3: that's what it takes. We need more people to speak

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Speaker 3: up and say this isn't working, we're not happy, We're

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Speaker 3: not going to go along to get along. We need

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Speaker 3: real substance of change, just at every step of the way.

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Speaker 3: And it's just going to take some political courage and

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Speaker 3: some personal courage, frankly, because you know, in this world

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Speaker 3: of lobbyists and nonprofits and the people that really have

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Speaker 3: a lot of voices at city Hall, there's a lot

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Speaker 3: of personal relationships and you have to be willing to

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Speaker 3: just step on those at times if you're going to

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Speaker 3: do the right thing.

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Speaker 1: Gotch all right, he's a consul, kendedy, Steve Gooden.

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Speaker 2: We'll see if this enacts any change, Probably not with

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Speaker 2: the mayor, but I you know, ask others about the

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Speaker 2: trickle down here, and I think it's I would think

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Speaker 2: it's going to be substantial that somebody's going to pay

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Speaker 2: for all this ineptitude that's happening at the hand of

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Speaker 2: Aftab and cheer along and forts. It's probably gonna be

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Speaker 2: some decent people on console for that matter. We'll see

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Speaker 2: how it shakes out. Steve, all the best and maybe

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Speaker 2: you're part of that change, hopefully and can bring some

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Speaker 2: of these ideas to fruition. All the best men, have

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Speaker 2: a great weekend. Thanks you too, Take take care. We

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Speaker 2: got to get to news and.

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Speaker 1: We're in return.

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Speaker 2: We have fun because it's Friday, a little heavy for

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Speaker 2: a Friday, I apologize. But the insanity what's happening in

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Speaker 2: the city is it's unprecedented.

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Speaker 1: It really really is.

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Speaker 2: Austin Ellmore from ESPN fifteen thirty jumps in next we'll

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Speaker 2: talk football, football, and more football, plus the NBA scandal,

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Speaker 2: the latest on that next seven hundred WW Scott Fund

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Speaker 2: Show