Speaker 1: Do you want to be an Americans?
Speaker 2: Got Flom show on seven hundred WLW that we got
Speaker 2: some breaking news to share with you this morning about
Speaker 2: crime in Cincinnati. Robert Shaw has now been charged in
Speaker 2: the murder with that drive by shooting. He killed a
Speaker 2: thirty four old man by the name of Justin Johnson
Speaker 2: right after Thursday night football. This is on Sycamore in
Speaker 2: front of the in Between Tavern. Happened about two am,
Speaker 2: so people are still downtown celebrating the Big Bengals. Whin
Speaker 2: Shaw was wearing an ankle monitor at the time. Does
Speaker 2: the story sound familiar? Sure? And the reason why I
Speaker 2: was under a house arrest so to speak, was carried
Speaker 2: concealed weapon, illegal gun possession and here he is being
Speaker 2: held on that, being about to go and trial on that,
Speaker 2: and now he's out there doing it again. So initially
Speaker 2: he was released on a twenty thousand dollars bond with
Speaker 2: the electronic monitoring that was back in June. Also, the
Speaker 2: suspect in the Fountain Square shooting last week has turned
Speaker 2: himself in. Twenty four year old Shaquille Ferguson said it's
Speaker 2: self defense because the people that he shot at through
Speaker 2: the window of City Chicken on Fountain Square were actually
Speaker 2: armed themselves and pointing a gun at him. The only
Speaker 2: problem with that argument from Clyde Bennett is that mister
Speaker 2: Ferguson was already on probation in July for a violent crime,
Speaker 2: which means he's under disability and shouldn't have had the
Speaker 2: gun that he shot the window out and at the
Speaker 2: people to the city Bird. So we're back to this question.
Speaker 2: Is our probation and monitoring system completely broken and beyond repair?
Speaker 2: On that is the honorable Betsy Sunderman, She's a judge
Speaker 2: in Hamlin County, joining the show to discuss here on
Speaker 2: seven hundred WLW.
Speaker 1: How are you good morning? I'm great, how are you?
Speaker 2: I'm doing final though you hear these stories, I'd love
Speaker 2: to not be talking about violent crime in Cincinnati, but
Speaker 2: you know, we have shoes dropping and now we know
Speaker 2: the backgrounds of the individuals and jackets on Robert Shaw
Speaker 2: and Shaquille Ferguson. You have two people yet again that
Speaker 2: should not be armed by law, and yet there they are.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, and if if there are any issues with
Speaker 1: probation monitoring right now, it is interesting for your liststeners
Speaker 1: to know who is in charge of the probation officers.
Speaker 1: It's the judges. The judges hire the probation officers and
Speaker 1: make sure they're doing their jobs. So if we're having
Speaker 1: issues with probation monitoring, I mean, I haven't heard this
Speaker 1: issue before in the past. And it's interesting. Now we
Speaker 1: have a lot of Democrat judges who are in charge
Speaker 1: of the probation department and that seems to be the
Speaker 1: big change, and now we're not very happy with probation monitoring. So,
Speaker 1: for example, about a month ago, the Democrat majority of
Speaker 1: judges and Common Police Criminal Court decided to get rid
Speaker 1: of some of these, well all of the probation substations.
Speaker 1: So there used to be these substations in the most
Speaker 1: violent neighborhood and people who are on probation could go
Speaker 1: meet with those probation officers there, and the probation officers
Speaker 1: could set up shops there and they could visit people
Speaker 1: in their homes. But now the Democrat judges have gotten
Speaker 1: rid of those and they said, well, it's more efficient
Speaker 1: because now our probation officers can all be downtown. Well
Speaker 1: that's true. Maybe it's more efficient as far as you know,
Speaker 1: they don't have to drive places, but they're not able
Speaker 1: to monitor people.
Speaker 2: They're not in the community. So now they got it
Speaker 2: a far further to monitor the people instead of being
Speaker 2: in the neighborhood. It'd be kind of like just having
Speaker 2: one big police station district one as opposed to the
Speaker 2: multi different districts in and around Cincinnati. For cops. You
Speaker 2: put them where the people in the crimes are exactly,
Speaker 2: and if they're.
Speaker 1: Visiting people in their homes, then people are picking up
Speaker 1: more violations when the probation officers are seeing things in
Speaker 1: their home. So of course the stats are going to
Speaker 1: show a year from now that there are fewer probation violations,
Speaker 1: but that's because the monitor monitoring is going to be subpar,
Speaker 1: and as we see the monitoring get worse and worse,
Speaker 1: we're going to see people out there offending. For example.
Speaker 1: I mean, I really can't speak specifically to a case,
Speaker 1: but if there's a case where someone, for example, is
Speaker 1: on the ankle monitor but has privileges for something, sometimes
Speaker 1: it's hard to monitor those privileges. So like let's say
Speaker 1: I was on an ankle monitor and I had privileges
Speaker 1: to go to work. Well, that's easy because I work
Speaker 1: at one location and I work from the same time
Speaker 1: I start and the same time I end every day.
Speaker 1: But a lot of people don't have jobs like that.
Speaker 1: A lot of people, you know, maybe they work construction,
Speaker 1: or they work at a hospital, or they work odd hours.
Speaker 1: And how do you monitor someone when they always say, well,
Speaker 1: I was on my way to a construction job.
Speaker 2: Or in the case is this is Betsy Sunderman ferguson
Speaker 2: the Fountain Square shoot at Teddy Bird. This young man
Speaker 2: has a two cases pending for aggravated assault, both with
Speaker 2: a weapon specification. There he shot someone two days prior,
Speaker 2: allegedly in Northside before he shot the window out in
Speaker 2: Fountain Square and shout at the people there, And yet
Speaker 2: he was on probation from the other one saying, hey, listen,
Speaker 2: as long as you're out looking for a job, it's fine.
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's a good idea. You turn
Speaker 2: your application at City Bird and then turn around and
Speaker 2: shoot their window out, albeit not to shoot at the
Speaker 2: bird's window, shoot the people in the bird. But still,
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure, you know, if I'm doing the hiring
Speaker 2: that kind of behaviors frowned upon.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess it depends what kind of job they're
Speaker 1: trying to book, but it's unlikely that that would meet
Speaker 1: the job description.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: But by having these rules that seem really tough, but
Speaker 1: then not enforcing them properly, this is the way that
Speaker 1: the politicians can say we're combating crime but really doing nothing.
Speaker 1: For example, like the mayor and his juvenile curfew. Whenever
Speaker 1: a juvenile either shoot someone or get shot, he says,
Speaker 1: we're gonna tighten up this curfew. But then if you
Speaker 1: look at the actual rules of the juvenile curfew, if
Speaker 1: a child is out, if someone under eighteen is out
Speaker 1: and they say that they're on their way to work
Speaker 1: or on their way home from work, you can't make
Speaker 1: them go home, or you can't violate them for the curfew.
Speaker 1: If they say that they are exercising their First Amendment rights,
Speaker 1: which could be the freedom of speech, assembly, they could
Speaker 1: freedom of the press, to.
Speaker 2: Church, they're on their way to church, Bessie when they
Speaker 2: shot that person exactly.
Speaker 1: And then even if the kid says, you know, I'm
Speaker 1: not I have no exception that fits, then the police
Speaker 1: all they can do is say, you know, we'd really
Speaker 1: like you to go home, And if the kid says no,
Speaker 1: then they'd say well, we'd really like you to go
Speaker 1: to this, uh, this rec center, and if the kid
Speaker 1: says no, they can't, they can't do anything. So it's
Speaker 1: great that the mayor's on TV saying we're tightening up
Speaker 1: this curfew. If if you're there and you're doing anything bad,
Speaker 1: we're going to arrest. But it's just not playing out
Speaker 1: like that, all right.
Speaker 2: Betsy Sunderman, Judge Sunderman is here on the show, and
Speaker 2: we're talking about probation and monitoring systems. Are they broken
Speaker 2: beyond repair? Robert Shaw, that was the man who's now
Speaker 2: been charged the drive by shooting that killed thirty fear
Speaker 2: old Justin Johnson after Thursday night football, right right near
Speaker 2: the in between tavern on Thursday night Friday morning. He
Speaker 2: was already out on a lot. He was wearing the
Speaker 2: ankle monitor at the time he shot the individual in
Speaker 2: the car, Justin Johnson. From what I understand, people I
Speaker 2: know knew this guy and said, yeah, he's a professional,
Speaker 2: you know, seemed to be an upstanding guy. I don't
Speaker 2: know why he and Robert Shaw got into a beef
Speaker 2: and what was over. We don't know that. But the
Speaker 2: background is not Justin Johnson is not a street criminal.
Speaker 2: He's a professional, or was a professional before he was
Speaker 2: murdered in the Shaquille Ferguson shooting at Citybird Chicken. He
Speaker 2: was armed again, had priors, who's out on probation for
Speaker 2: a violent crime, and he shot the window out and
Speaker 2: trying to shoot at the people inside City Bird. His attorney,
Speaker 2: Clyde Bennett cle m self defense. We'll see that. I'm
Speaker 2: not quite sure how that works within the law. If
Speaker 2: you're prohibited from having a weapon because you're on probation
Speaker 2: and you shoot at someone, I'm not quite sure that
Speaker 2: that is going to It's not It's not like ofsetting
Speaker 2: penalties in the NFL. And then you play it over
Speaker 2: in that regard to Betsy sentiment though, And I think
Speaker 2: it's interesting in pointing out, because we've talked about the
Speaker 2: problem in its progressivism in Cincinnati, that that that's fueling this.
Speaker 2: It's because we want to hands off no bail policy
Speaker 2: and we want to be kindler and gentlemen with people
Speaker 2: who are suspected at crimes because their life is already difficult,
Speaker 2: and well, it just gives the sociopaths out there more
Speaker 2: a license to do stuff like this. I will point out, however,
Speaker 2: in both those cases in Sean Ferguson, those are both
Speaker 2: conservative Republican judges that ordered them on monitoring, and that
Speaker 2: would be Judge dink Locker and Judge Ruleman. Does that
Speaker 2: change the math a little bit on.
Speaker 1: This, Well, I'll tell you those are two of the
Speaker 1: judges who give the biggest bombs. So without being able
Speaker 1: to talk to I can't call them and ask them
Speaker 1: about the case and then talk about it on the radio,
Speaker 1: right right, But I would trust that those judges would
Speaker 1: set appropriate bonds. There's a trifecta that kind of effects
Speaker 1: every time someone's upset about someone being on parole or
Speaker 1: probation and being out there and committing crimes. There's a
Speaker 1: trifecta that affects all this. There's the police, there's the
Speaker 1: probation department, and the judges. So the police are controlled by,
Speaker 1: of course the police chief, who is controlled by the
Speaker 1: city manager, who is ultimately controlled by the mayor. So
Speaker 1: the police department is controlled by the mayor. And then
Speaker 1: we have probation, which I already told you is controlled
Speaker 1: by the judges, the now liberal Democrat judges. And then
Speaker 1: we have the judges themselves, which are now a majority
Speaker 1: Democrat liberal judges, so that basically the two groups that
Speaker 1: are controlling all this is the mayor, the city manager,
Speaker 1: the city administration, and the liberal judges. So if we're
Speaker 1: seeing a big change, those are the big changes. Of course,
Speaker 1: we've had a Democrat mayor for probably fifty years, right,
Speaker 1: but the way the mayor is affecting the police department
Speaker 1: is different than ever before. And then all having a
Speaker 1: majority liberal, progressive Democrat judges is new for us in
Speaker 1: Hamilton County.
Speaker 2: Look look look at it, and a lot of look
Speaker 2: at how the mayor's office impacted the brawl, and that
Speaker 2: he was demanding that the white guy be charged because
Speaker 2: he's a white guy, and we got to balance things
Speaker 2: out racially. Apparently if yourest a personal caller, you got
Speaker 2: aggressive white guy, even though he was the victim. Clearly
Speaker 2: this whole thing, and no one wanted to write that
Speaker 2: citation and unfortunately made a captain down at the Central
Speaker 2: Business dictor to it who wasn't even on the scene.
Speaker 2: To show you how politically motivated those charges were. Just
Speaker 2: to appease the vocal contingent of folks in the community
Speaker 2: who were screaming about restorative justice which is which is
Speaker 2: a farce? But relative to Robert Shaw, I don't know.
Speaker 2: This may be a tough question. You can eat their
Speaker 2: answer to you can. I understand you have a canon
Speaker 2: of ethics you have to abide by. You can't criticize
Speaker 2: other judges. But in the shawcase, this is a drive
Speaker 2: by from Thursday night football in from the in Between
Speaker 2: that was under Judge Dinkelocker. The guy Robert Shaw was
Speaker 2: on a twenty thousand dollars bond with electronic monitoring and
Speaker 2: this was from a case back in June. His jacket
Speaker 2: is this nineteen ninety eight six months in prison for
Speaker 2: coke possession, two thousand and three six months for concealed weapon,
Speaker 2: illegal guns, receiving spolling Property RSP, and then twenty eleven
Speaker 2: and then again in twenty fifteen he did prison time
Speaker 2: for a legal gun possession. He got twenty thousand dollars bond,
Speaker 2: an electronic monitoring out and murdered someone while he was
Speaker 2: wearing the ankle monitor. What would you prescribe what would
Speaker 2: you prescribe as a punishment for Robert Shaw? If we're
Speaker 2: in front of you, let's say, and he was already
Speaker 2: out on bond for another shooting. How many more times
Speaker 2: do you give someone a chance to get out on
Speaker 2: bond even though they have priors involving a weapon, because
Speaker 2: it tells me they're probably just going to do something
Speaker 2: with a gun.
Speaker 1: Again, Yeah, I mean, what do you I mean, what
Speaker 1: do you do with someone who clearly is never going
Speaker 1: to put down a gun? Right? I mean, this guy,
Speaker 1: it sounds like you've spent in prison quite a few
Speaker 1: times for having guns. He just keeps he just keeps
Speaker 1: picking up a gun, right. I mean, again, I can't
Speaker 1: speak to this exact case, but I do trust judge
Speaker 1: take a locker and if he set that bond, I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know. I can't really speak
Speaker 1: to a specific case. Well, what were you front?
Speaker 2: What would you done? Now? Again, you have the hindsight
Speaker 2: that this guy's going to murder someone over apparently it's
Speaker 2: just a beef. It doesn't look like they knew each
Speaker 2: other at this point. We'll find out. But what And
Speaker 2: you can't look in the crystal ball and say, well,
Speaker 2: he's going to go out and murder someone. You don't
Speaker 2: know that because there are probably countless people are in
Speaker 2: the situations that going out and do it. But we're
Speaker 2: talking about stopping this from happening in the first place.
Speaker 2: Should we just say, hey, listen, you already had a gun.
Speaker 2: Speck you go right to You're going to hold you
Speaker 2: and you're not going to get out, and you're not
Speaker 2: gonna be able to walk around. And you decide to
Speaker 2: do something stupid with a gun and you shouldn't have
Speaker 2: a gun. You're going to sit in jail until your trial.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean I would want to look at
Speaker 1: his pre trial services sheet. So every single person who's
Speaker 1: arrested and put into the jail and has an arraignment
Speaker 1: the next morning in front of a judge, a municipal
Speaker 1: judge and pre trial services interviews the person and sees
Speaker 1: if they're a flight risk, sees how much money they
Speaker 1: could afford for a bond. They ask them a million
Speaker 1: different questions about drugs and guns and family members and
Speaker 1: community ties and do they have a job, that kind
Speaker 1: of stuff. And the judge is able to look at
Speaker 1: that sheet. The prosecutor is not able to look at
Speaker 1: that sheet. I know that because I used to work
Speaker 1: in that courtroom. One thing that we could do is
Speaker 1: we could give everyone access to that information that might
Speaker 1: be very helpful. I'm sure some of the new prosecutors
Speaker 1: have different strategies than when I was a prosecutor there
Speaker 1: because now they have a different boss.
Speaker 2: So I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean, giving everyone maximum information and maybe giving the
Speaker 1: media more information. I know the media doesn't see those
Speaker 1: pre trial services sheets. I'm not saying those should be
Speaker 1: turned over to the media, but usually that docket is
Speaker 1: very rapid, and the media kind of leaves confused, like, well,
Speaker 1: why did one person get a low bond and one
Speaker 1: person get.
Speaker 2: A high bond?
Speaker 1: Right, So maybe making some of that more accessible.
Speaker 2: Why isn't I shared with the prosecutor if anyone else.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know, it's a good question. I don't
Speaker 1: know if I should know that, But then it should
Speaker 1: be shared with the defense attorney. If you can't share
Speaker 1: something just with a prosecutor and not the defense attorney discovery,
Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe there's no time. I mean it's
Speaker 1: a very quick docket. I mean, it's probably not as
Speaker 1: quick as it used to be because we not as
Speaker 1: many people are arrested because there aren't that many people
Speaker 1: in our jail anymore.
Speaker 2: But well, I remember was a long ago under Sheriff
Speaker 2: Simon LEAs, and I know he's revered in this community.
Speaker 2: I think there's something he did was way overreaching. I mean,
Speaker 2: like you know, but he was tough on crime for sure.
Speaker 2: And I remember having discussions about we need a bigger jail,
Speaker 2: we need more jail space because we can't house all
Speaker 2: the people. You don't hear that conversation anymore, and that was, like,
Speaker 2: you know, fifteen years ago, twenty years ago, it's because
Speaker 2: we're not holding people anymore.
Speaker 1: Right, Twenty years ago, sy Lease used to meet with
Speaker 1: all the judges and say, listen, we are bursting at
Speaker 1: the themes. I'm going to have to create some new
Speaker 1: work details and things so we can let the least
Speaker 1: violent people out earlier. And the judges would respond, you know,
Speaker 1: do what you need to do. We're going to do
Speaker 1: what we need to do. You know, we're not going
Speaker 1: to change our sentences. But you know, if you don't
Speaker 1: have room, you got to do what you need to do.
Speaker 1: I can't imagine that conversation is happening now where the
Speaker 1: sheriff is saying we don't have any room. I never
Speaker 1: hear it, right, But even if we did try to
Speaker 1: arrest another two hundred people to fill up the jail.
Speaker 1: We don't have sheriff's deputies, we don't have enough corrections officers.
Speaker 1: Police officers have told me when they arrest juveniles now
Speaker 1: and they bring them to juvenile jail at twenty twenty,
Speaker 1: we call it twenty twenty. Auburn Avenue that most often
Speaker 1: twenty twenty just says we're not going to keep them.
Speaker 1: We just don't have enough employees. We just can't keep them. Yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: I don't know. Is it a policy issue? Is it
Speaker 1: a staffing issue. Is it people are vilifying police correction
Speaker 1: officers and then no one wants to do it, and
Speaker 1: then that's fulfilled the plan to be understaffed and to
Speaker 1: not be able to lock people up. I don't know.
Speaker 2: If you look at the climate and CPD right now,
Speaker 2: we've got a huge number officers retiring, even at early ages,
Speaker 2: because they can't stand all the politics and the bs
Speaker 2: and what the mayor's office and how much control they have,
Speaker 2: and how their hands are tied in a lot of cases,
Speaker 2: and they go to a suburban office or trying to
Speaker 2: do a lattle recruiting, and I understand it's difficult because
Speaker 2: people go well, the money's good, but you know what,
Speaker 2: on the job in Cincinnati, I'd rather stay where I am.
Speaker 2: It's not attractive to them because the climate created by
Speaker 2: the political ecosystem in Hamlin County, but specifically in the
Speaker 2: city of Cincinnati. She is a judge, Betsy Senderman, who's
Speaker 2: running for office. The cycle will know in a couple
Speaker 2: of weeks if she wins. But it's it's a tough job.
Speaker 2: But we've got to reform this system because ankle monitor
Speaker 2: the grant and there are probably thousands and thousands of
Speaker 2: people out there that abide by the terms of the
Speaker 2: deal they made with the judge and are trying to
Speaker 2: do the right thing. But how do we segregate the
Speaker 2: most violent people? And I'd say, if you have a
Speaker 2: gun specification history of priors with guns like this Robert
Speaker 2: schaugu I did, then I don't understand why we're giving
Speaker 2: you house arrest essentially because chances are you're going to
Speaker 2: break it. I think, if it's a gun speck, we
Speaker 2: already have laws in the books. Let's enforce federal law
Speaker 2: that if you're prohibited because of a felony prior felony
Speaker 2: for'm owning a firearm, possessing a firearm. Then you go
Speaker 2: to jail right away and there is no release, there
Speaker 2: is no ankle monitoring going on, because you're a menace
Speaker 2: to society. Betsy Siderman, I always appreciate the time and
Speaker 2: the insight. Thanks again. You have a wonderful day.
Speaker 1: Judge Clownix, I like it.
Speaker 2: No, I'm not going back to school. You ain't gonna
Speaker 2: get me there. Hell no, I'm not taking out more
Speaker 2: student loans. I'm on the wrong side of fifty and
Speaker 2: I just finished paying mine off. Betsy, Oh the best,
Speaker 2: take care, see you later.
Speaker 1: All right.
Speaker 2: We got a news update coming in momentarily and we'll
Speaker 2: chop it up next about what you just heared here.
Speaker 2: Surprise surprise, guys out on ankle monitors and house arrest
Speaker 2: and they're out shooting people. This is what this is.
Speaker 2: This is the government we deserve because we elected them
Speaker 2: seven hundred w well them.