1 00:00:01,639 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Get connected with Nina del Rio, a weekly 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: conversation about fitness, health and happenings in our community on 3 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: one oh six point seven light FM. 4 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 2: Welcome to get connected. Maybe you've heard about forever chemicals 5 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 2: in the soil, in the water. Were you aware they're 6 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 2: also in you? Pollutants embedded into our everyday sources, from 7 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 2: frying pans to mascara, Deeply embedded in our systems and 8 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 2: our lives permanently. But what are forever chemicals and what 9 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 2: are their consequences? Our guests are Sharon Judison and Rachel Frasen, 10 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 2: authors of Poisoning the Well. How forever chemicals Contaminated America. 11 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 2: Sharon Judison and Rachel Frasen, thank you for being on 12 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:43,840 Speaker 2: the show. Thanks for having Sharon Judison is a staff 13 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 2: reporter for The Hill covering Western climate and policy. She 14 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 2: was the recipient of a twenty twenty two Seal Environmental 15 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 2: Journalism Award. She spent nearly a decade in Israel reporting 16 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 2: on environment, energy, and agriculture for The Jerusalem Post and 17 00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:00,280 Speaker 2: Rachel Frasen covers energy and environment policy for The Hill. 18 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 2: Her work has also appeared in The Chicago Sun Times, 19 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 2: The Daily Beast, the Tampa Bay Times and elsewhere. So 20 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 2: to the book, most of us have pfas coursing through 21 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 2: our veins. That's the premise. What are these things and 22 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 2: what are they most likely to be in that we're 23 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 2: using every day. 24 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 3: So that acronym PFAS or p FOS is for per 25 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 3: and polychloro alkyl substances, and those are about fifteen thousand 26 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 3: synthetic organo fluorine compounds, synthetic meaning man made compounds, and 27 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 3: they're in many household items such as waterproof fabrics, nonstick pans, cosmetics, 28 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:43,759 Speaker 3: certain types of firefighting foams. And they've also been incredibly 29 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 3: convenient because of their water and stained resistant properties, and 30 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 3: that has made them useful in critical things like medical devices, 31 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 3: first responder gear, and semiconductors. 32 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 2: One of the points you make in the book, they 33 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 2: were also in a lot of the COVID masks. Everybody 34 00:01:57,280 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 2: bought the three M COVID masks, so we were breathing 35 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 2: those in and we're getting them in many different ways. 36 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 2: Can you talk about, yeah, a little bit more about 37 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 2: that miracle quality that has made them so ubiquitous. Sense 38 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 2: I guess the nineteen fifties. 39 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,799 Speaker 4: Nonstick things are really useful. They've got military applications. I 40 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 4: think one of the first applications was in the atom 41 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 4: bomb to sort of prevent corrosion because it's a very 42 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 4: stable chemical. But like Sharon said, they're used in heart valves, 43 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 4: They're used in dental floss, they're used in you know, 44 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:26,800 Speaker 4: paper products, anything that doesn't crumble in water when maybe 45 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 4: you normally think that it would. This is really useful, 46 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 4: you know, both in consumer products that we use, you know, 47 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 4: as well as waterproof makeup. 48 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 5: It's nice when your makeup blasts all day. But you know, 49 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 5: at the. 50 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 4: Same time, there are consequences to all of this because unfortunately, 51 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:44,519 Speaker 4: these chemicals persist forever. They last for hundreds or even 52 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 4: thousands of years in the environment. But they also have 53 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 4: been linked to a wide range of illnesses. Cancers, kidney problems, 54 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:56,639 Speaker 4: diroid issues, fertility issues, immune system problems, the list goes on. 55 00:02:56,840 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 2: It's very interesting. So this is not news. This information 56 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 2: that they have been causing health problems. It's known back 57 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:06,119 Speaker 2: as far as the nineteen fifties. Researchers started seeing issues 58 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 2: with people in like Decatur, Alabama, for instance, which is 59 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 2: where the stories began. Can you talk a little bit 60 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:13,359 Speaker 2: about what people were seeing even back then. 61 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 4: So in the fifties and sixties, studies were beginning to emerge, 62 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 4: you know, for one thing, linking it to sort of 63 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 4: a polymer fume fever or teflon flu where people, you know, 64 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 4: in the fifties there were documented cases or people who 65 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 4: were sort of exposed to heated teflon developed flu like symptoms. 66 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 2: You know. 67 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:32,079 Speaker 4: In the sixties, studies began to emerge, you know, linking 68 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 4: it in animals to health impacts, you know, problems with rats, 69 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 4: livers and other body parts, problems with dog livers, you know, 70 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 4: and this was in studies conducted by the chemical companies, 71 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 4: you know, DuPont was finding it, you know, causing problems 72 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 4: in dog livers. By the nineteen seventies, we had evidence 73 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 4: that it was building up. Independent scientists were finding that 74 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 4: evidence that fluorine, which isn't possible indicator of prefas, was 75 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 4: building up in the general population, just in workers at 76 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 4: these factories, but also in regular people. 77 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 2: Throughout the book, you have these repeated stories of these 78 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 2: localities where people are working with these chemicals, they become sick, 79 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 2: the area becomes contaminated, and yet the companies tend to 80 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 2: sort of respond in the same way. Let's maybe just 81 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:21,920 Speaker 2: use Decatur, Alabama as an example. How did they respond 82 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 2: over time to all these issues. 83 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 3: One of the industries there, THREEM, opened the site on 84 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:32,159 Speaker 3: Tennessee River, as you said, near Decatur in nineteen sixty one, 85 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 3: and this, as we showed, it was upstream from Brenda Hampton, 86 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 3: one of our protagonists town. And by nineteen seventy six 87 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:44,279 Speaker 3: THREEM had found a type of pipas in a Decatur 88 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 3: workers blood and then again in several employees in nineteen 89 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 3: seventy nine, and by the nineteen nineties, THREEM scientists their 90 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:57,600 Speaker 3: cited interests and possible health risks to workers. And there's 91 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 3: been like a kind of an on and off flage 92 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 3: back and forth with Alabama's Environmental Department, which has very 93 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 3: loose restrictions and an interesting relationship with industry in the region. 94 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 3: It's honestly been relatively lax. The EPA eventually came in 95 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 3: and started doing tests of the region, but it's just 96 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:26,799 Speaker 3: so contaminated there, like the discharges were going directly into 97 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 3: the water supply from the river of these small communities, 98 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 3: and what I find to be really really striking is 99 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:37,480 Speaker 3: that a lot of the people in Brenda's community work 100 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:40,839 Speaker 3: for the industries, so it's like this just this cycle 101 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 3: going around. It was really really kind of heartbreaking to 102 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 3: see the amount of devastation that has happened in the 103 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 3: small towns. 104 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 2: Our guests are Sharon Udison and Rachel Frasen. They are 105 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 2: authors of Poisoning the Well, How Forever chemicals Contaminated America. 106 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 2: You're listening to get connected on one O six point 107 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,119 Speaker 2: seven light FM. Amina del Rio. As I was reading, 108 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 2: especially the first part of this book, when you're talking 109 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 2: about all the issues Indicator, there's that old saying. You know, 110 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 2: you can't fight city hall, and you wonder why the 111 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 2: local governments or the Alabama Department of Environmental Management or 112 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 2: the EPA allow these things to continue. Can you talk 113 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 2: a little bit about, even beyond Decatur, about how these 114 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 2: governments seem to work in tandem with the companies at 115 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 2: some level, it just seems like it's the path of 116 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 2: least resistance. 117 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 4: At the federal level, you know a lot of it 118 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 4: is politics and political will. And you know, when the 119 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 4: EPA first became aware of this problem in like the 120 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:44,280 Speaker 4: late nineties or at least became aware of how widespread 121 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:47,720 Speaker 4: the problem was. Their sort of strategy was to work 122 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 4: with the chemical manufacturers. I mean, they did sue DuPont 123 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 4: and three M and collect settlements, and the settlement that 124 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:58,720 Speaker 4: they collected against DuPont was the biggest administrative penalty. 125 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:00,720 Speaker 5: The EPA had ever issued at that time. 126 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 4: But at the same time, you know, these companies have 127 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 4: been making billions of dollars off these products for decades, so. 128 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 5: You know, maybe a drop in the bucket compared to 129 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 5: all that. 130 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 4: But they also one of the things that they did 131 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 4: was they worked with the manufacturers to say, hey, let's 132 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 4: phase out the use of one of these chemicals, PFOA 133 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 4: by twenty fifteen. And it was effective, but it took 134 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 4: a long time because you know, they came up with 135 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 4: this deal in the mid two thousands. It took you know, 136 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 4: maybe ten years or so to go from striking a 137 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 4: deal to getting these out of commerce. Meanwhile, you and 138 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 4: I have continued to use the products that we already 139 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 4: have and some of the new products they were still 140 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 4: making for all of that time. But you know, it 141 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 4: can be a challenge politically, it can be a challenge, 142 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 4: you know, in terms of inflation. People don't like inflation, 143 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 4: and regulations ultimately do cause inflation. So it's complicated in 144 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 4: some of these more local areas. You know, a lot 145 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 4: of the local economies are based on some of these factories. 146 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 4: You know, same thing with the military, a lot of 147 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 4: you know, in a lot of the places too, there's 148 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 4: military contamination. It's a lot of areas where people work 149 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 4: in the military, and so it's sort of a complicated 150 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 4: connected nexus of all of this. 151 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 2: I'd like to talk about one other example, the farmlands 152 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 2: with the sludge. Heard a little bit about it the news, 153 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 2: But how did it end up in farms? Why was 154 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 2: it being used by farmers and for what? 155 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 3: So we use mean as an example in a book, 156 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 3: but it could apply to various other regions, as you said, 157 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 3: throughout the country, particularly places that have large scale agriculture. 158 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 3: So sludge are the semi solids that are left over 159 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 3: after sewage treatment. In mein that comes from paper mills, 160 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:40,559 Speaker 3: but it can come from other places as well. And 161 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 3: what happens is in the water treatment, the process removes solids, 162 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 3: but it doesn't remove environmental contaminants necessarily, like PIFAs. And 163 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 3: what happened was utilities water utilities who were left behind 164 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 3: with the sludge basically pedaled it for free to farmers 165 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,959 Speaker 3: as a win wind. The utilities didn't have to pay 166 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 3: land filling costs and farmers got fertilizer for free. And 167 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 3: in the case of Maine, it was it occurred with 168 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:11,599 Speaker 3: the huge support of the state itself because Maine was 169 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 3: struggling with a shortage in dump space due to a 170 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 3: ban on new private dumping sites in nineteen eighty nine, 171 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 3: so that there it was just occurring in such high 172 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:24,679 Speaker 3: levels because it had the support of local utilities and 173 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:28,199 Speaker 3: the state, and farmers said, oh great, so we're getting 174 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 3: a free nutritious fertilizer. They had no idea, and then 175 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 3: it slathered all over the farmlands and it has now 176 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 3: gotten into dairy cows, into crops, you know, even like 177 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 3: running off into rivers and getting into fish. So the 178 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,079 Speaker 3: problems have been so pervasive with lunch. 179 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 2: So what do we know about It's one thing to 180 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 2: think about somebody who works at a plant indicator and 181 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 2: ends up with bladder issues or kidney disease or something, 182 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:58,439 Speaker 2: because you're in touch with these things all the time. 183 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,680 Speaker 2: When something goes from the sledge to the field, to 184 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:03,719 Speaker 2: the cou to us, what is the. 185 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:07,559 Speaker 3: Impact really, Scientists are really studying a lot of these 186 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 3: emerging details and the exposure roots. But that said, there 187 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 3: are do not fish advisories in a lot of places, 188 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 3: like in main There's also do not hunt deer advisories 189 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 3: in certain places because the deer are considered contaminated. And 190 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 3: I think that scientists don't yet exactly know what the 191 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 3: how toxic it is when it's at that third level 192 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 3: and you're consuming it. But I think we're at the 193 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 3: point where people, at least the scientists want to would 194 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 3: rather be safe than sorry. I say, at least the scientists, 195 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:45,680 Speaker 3: because people are free to make their own choices. For example, 196 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 3: in Alabama, like near the Wheeler Dam on the Tennessee River, 197 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 3: there are some signs, like you know nearby saying hey, 198 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 3: don't fish, but there are a lot of people ignoring 199 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 3: those signs and choosing to fish anyway. 200 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 2: There's also so much, so many products, so many things 201 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 2: we use that have these chemicals in them, whether you're 202 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 2: talking about receipts, you're talking about the masks. How do 203 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 2: you know when something that you would use on an 204 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 2: everyday basis has the chemicals in them. 205 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 4: Well, part of the problem is that you don't if 206 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 4: you have never heard of this and you don't do 207 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 4: the research. But I think for me as a consumer, 208 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 4: some of the buzzwords that I really make sure I'm 209 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:25,439 Speaker 4: paying attention to are things that are nonstick, waterproof, sweatproof, 210 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 4: grease resistant, stain resistant, basically anything. 211 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:31,679 Speaker 5: That's meant to repel water or liquids. I know, for me, if. 212 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 4: I'm looking at some of these products that that's a 213 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 4: red flag that I know, okay, I have to look 214 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 4: and see and try to figure out, you know, does 215 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 4: this have p fass in it? And you know, I 216 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 4: think that the companies who work in these industries that 217 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 4: make these products, if they are using p fast free products, 218 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 4: they'll want to advertise that. 219 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 5: Right. 220 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 4: So if you make a nonstick pan that is free 221 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 4: of all p fasts, you know that's going to make 222 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 4: a lot of money. 223 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 5: So you know, you'll want to tell people about that. 224 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 5: And if a. 225 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 4: Company is not transparent, you can give them a call 226 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 4: and say, hey, is there PFASs in this? But it's 227 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 4: in so many things and it can be so hard 228 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 4: to keep track of, you know. I think another thing 229 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 4: for me is a consumer, are things that I try 230 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 4: to avoid are things that where I can ingest it 231 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 4: or inhale it, or it's going to sort of touch 232 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 4: my blood. I think an example of that that I 233 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:21,959 Speaker 4: like to give is dental floss. You know, I think 234 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 4: sometimes when people floss, you know, touches their gums and 235 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 4: it can bleed, especially if you haven't flossed. 236 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 5: In a while. 237 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 4: And so I know that I look for p fast 238 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 4: free floss because that's something that it can get into 239 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:35,599 Speaker 4: my bloodstream if it you know, if I bleed and 240 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:38,679 Speaker 4: I touch the p fass to my blood, it can 241 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 4: sort of then get into my body. So I think that, 242 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:43,719 Speaker 4: you know, obviously there's sort of the ethical question of 243 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 4: you know, if you buy these products, are you hurting 244 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 4: people like the people indicator who are in that area, 245 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 4: who live downstream. But then there's sort of also the 246 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 4: personal question and if you're going to prioritize, you know, 247 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 4: maybe do well and who could by making sure that 248 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 4: you are, you know, avoiding things that can really get 249 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 4: into your body. I've swapped out my non stick pants 250 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 4: personally for stainless steel. Cast iron is also good. 251 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 2: We're kind of at this moment too, where regulation is 252 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 2: being pulled back. That has to do a bit with 253 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 2: the federal government who's overseeing things at this moment. Is 254 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:17,839 Speaker 2: there anyone outside the federal government who's really sort of 255 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 2: following us, who's holding companies and governments to account that 256 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 2: we can kind of look to for some guidance as well. 257 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 3: Well, I'd say certain states are I mentioned Maine before, 258 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 3: which is one of the most polluted pipas states, but 259 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 3: they also are among the most advanced in terms of legislation, 260 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 3: and New York has. 261 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 5: Gotten better too. 262 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 3: In New York became, you know, the first state to 263 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 3: regulate pifoa as a hazardous substance in twenty sixteen. So 264 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 3: my point is is, I think, regardless of what happens 265 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 3: with the federal administrations, we're going to have to look 266 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 3: to states in the coming years. But again, that also 267 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 3: presents a little bit of an environmental justice issue because 268 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 3: if you're in Alabama versus if you're in New York, 269 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 3: you're going to have different regulations. 270 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 2: You do to make the points, the pollution is not 271 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 2: distributed equally. Certain communities have much more it than others. 272 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 4: You know, information is also not distributed equitably, Like when 273 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 4: the pollution problems came to light. In North Carolina for example, 274 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 4: which we talk about in the book. We think that 275 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 4: you know, the people who were on the city water 276 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 4: were sort of first made aware that okay, the city 277 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 4: water is contaminated and that they work to find a solution. 278 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 4: But people who are on private wells, who often are 279 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 4: more rural people, but who also are you know, maybe 280 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 4: less resourced. You know, we're not made aware that, hey, 281 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 4: this is also just sort of in the groundwater, and 282 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 4: you know, the problem is coming to light for them 283 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 4: a little bit later. So it's you know, in terms 284 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 4: of equity, there's you know, sort of the I guess 285 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 4: environmental justice or you know, racial and economic inequities. 286 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 5: You know, in terms of across the board, you. 287 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 4: Know, access to medical care, access to information, access to 288 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:00,040 Speaker 4: you know, being on the public water system versus the 289 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 4: private water system. But also going back to your question 290 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 4: of politics, if you'll humor me, I think that we 291 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 4: are in an interesting moment, and you know, I want 292 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 4: to note that we're not necessarily powerless, and that in 293 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 4: the federal government, even you know, among the Republican Party 294 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 4: there's sort of two I guess how I see it, 295 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 4: as you know, differing factions. You have the industry people, 296 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 4: and Republicans typically have aligned with big business and big industry, 297 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 4: and at the EPA they have put a lot of 298 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 4: former chemistry chemical industry people into key positions. But there 299 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 4: is also sort of this make America Healthy Again movement, 300 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 4: and you know, that movement might not necessarily follow mainstream 301 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 4: science as far as vaccines, but they are also very 302 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 4: wary and cautious of the chemicals that they are ingesting. 303 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 4: And so I think as far as pfast goes, you know, 304 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 4: that is one that RFK Junior has been outspoken about. 305 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 4: And so I think it's sort of too soon to 306 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 4: say whether or not the Trump administration is going to 307 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 4: roll back or the extent to which they're going to 308 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 4: roll back some of the biden Our regulations on this. 309 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 2: There is much more in the book Poisoning the Well, 310 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 2: How Forever Chemicals Contaminated America. Our guests are Sharon Udison 311 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 2: and Rachel Frasen. Thank you for being on the show, 312 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 2: Thanks for having us. 313 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: This has been get connected with Nina del Rio on 314 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: one oh six point seven Light FM. The views and 315 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: opinions of our guests do not necessarily reflect the views 316 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: of the station. If you missed any part of our 317 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: show or want to share it, Visit our website for 318 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 1: downloads and podcasts at one O six to seven lightfm 319 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: dot com. Thanks for listening.