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Speaker 1: Want to be an American flony back on seven hundred WLW.

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Speaker 1: There is nothing like a sleep when it's pouring rain outside,

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Speaker 1: so it just makes you sleep more. The only problem

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Speaker 1: with that is you got to get you gotta get

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Speaker 1: up right, and it was a slow move today for me.

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Speaker 1: I might be with you as well. We have horrible news,

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Speaker 1: of course with the fire. We'll get more than a

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Speaker 1: bit later on in Warren County, but also the follow

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Speaker 1: up from the mass shooting at Riverfront Live over the weekend.

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Speaker 1: Nine people shot, hundreds traumatized, and the man now accused

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Speaker 1: of pulling the trigger could walk free on a fifty

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars bond. He's climbing self defense and the mayor

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Speaker 1: is furious. The question, though, is why didn't prosecutors asked

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Speaker 1: to keep him locked up in the first place? On

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Speaker 1: that is attorney defense attorney, constitutional expert and all around

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Speaker 1: decent guy, Steve Gooden, Steve, how you doing, buddy, good

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Speaker 1: good boy?

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Speaker 2: Suh.

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Speaker 1: So we got the case of Frenny Cobb. He's twenty

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Speaker 1: four years old, arrested on a single felonious assault charge

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Speaker 1: in connection with the shooting. Nine people twenty injured in

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Speaker 1: the stampede. The judge set bonded fifty thousand dollars. Cobb

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Speaker 1: is a convicted fellon, illegally barred from having a firearm.

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Speaker 1: He was just in jail, got out of prison and

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Speaker 1: picked up a gun and went and shot an individual

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Speaker 1: in the crowd at this event on Saturday. He's had

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Speaker 1: two prior weapon under disability convictions before the shooting, including

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Speaker 1: one just a year ago, and only served twelve months

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Speaker 1: before his release. Steve, at what point does the systems

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Speaker 1: repeated leniency in this whole restorative justice thing and bail

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Speaker 1: reform towards an armed repeat offender across judicial discretion into

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Speaker 1: just absolute negligence, Because it feels like this is negligent

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Speaker 1: to me.

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Speaker 2: Well, look, this was a complete failure of the system

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Speaker 2: on multiple levels, and there's a lot to unpack here,

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Speaker 2: but one thing I do want to make clear, thank god,

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Speaker 2: that looks as of the US Attorney's Office has stepped

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Speaker 2: in with federal charges. They slapped what's called a federal

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Speaker 2: holder on these two gentlemen, both of whom I guess

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Speaker 2: there was a straight up gun battle the you, and

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Speaker 2: it looks as though that they're not going anywhere thanks

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Speaker 2: to the intervention of the FBI and the US Attorney's office,

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Speaker 2: so that at least, you know, they have rectified the situation,

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Speaker 2: at least for the moment. They are facing federal weapons

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Speaker 2: churages now that they could carry up to fifteen years each.

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Speaker 2: So that's good news. The bad news is, you're right,

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Speaker 2: there's no way either of these guys should have been

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Speaker 2: getting out on any kind of a low bond. And

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Speaker 2: you know, the saying is, you know, success as many fathers,

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Speaker 2: but failures and orphan here the failure has many many fathers.

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Speaker 2: It looks as though the prosecutors and the police officers

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Speaker 2: wok forward with a single count of colonious assault. It

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Speaker 2: looks clear to me that at this point they know

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Speaker 2: there was a gun battle, but there seems to be

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Speaker 2: a no nine people shot, twenty others injured, but there

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Speaker 2: seems to be a lack of clarity at this point

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Speaker 2: in the investigation is to who shot whom. So it

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Speaker 2: looks as though they threw this kind of placeholder charge out.

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Speaker 2: That was mistake number one. You know, it didn't carry

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Speaker 2: the gravity or really communicate the gravity of what happened.

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Speaker 2: And then number two, we do have judges and I've

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Speaker 2: dealt with this judge before, Bernard Monday. He's actually overall

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Speaker 2: a really good judge. But there are a lot of

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Speaker 2: judges in this courthouse right now that have this ideological bent.

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Speaker 2: They don't believe in cash bond. They think it's unfair

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Speaker 2: that people like you and I who have means, if

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Speaker 2: we're accused of a crime, that we can go get

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Speaker 2: a put our house up, or have access sell stock

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Speaker 2: and post a bond. They think it's fundamentally unfair that

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Speaker 2: people who don't have means are being held in jail.

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Speaker 2: It's an ideological thing that has nothing to do whatsoever

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Speaker 2: with the facts of a case. And it got so

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Speaker 2: bad in Hamilton County if you recall about three or

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Speaker 2: four years ago, Judge Megan Shanahan, he's now in the

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Speaker 2: High Supreme Court, actually put forward a statewide issue requiring

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Speaker 2: judges to consider public safety is an issue in the

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Speaker 2: posting or setting of cash bonds in addition to their

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Speaker 2: ability to pay, which is like sort of the progressive

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Speaker 2: democratic focus. It's always the ability to pay, not public safety.

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Speaker 2: So there's a requirement these judges have. It's in the

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Speaker 2: Ohio Constitution now imposed by the voters that they should

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Speaker 2: look at public safety above all else, and that clearly

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Speaker 2: just didn't happen here. So a fifty thousand dollars bond

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Speaker 2: conceivably posted, you know, a ten percent, which is the

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Speaker 2: standard I thing here. So someone could post five thousand

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Speaker 2: dollars cash of walk out on some sort of an

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Speaker 2: ankle bracelet. You know, that's a really bad, bad thing.

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Speaker 2: And you know, back when I was a prosecutor, we

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Speaker 2: viewed this very very differently twenty years ago. Not only

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Speaker 2: were you trying to protect the public, but you also

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Speaker 2: wanted to protect the defendant because you know, in the

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Speaker 2: in the immediate aftermath of some big public shooting like this,

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Speaker 2: you know, there tends to be victims, families looking for

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Speaker 2: them too. It's in society's interest, they're interest everyone for

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Speaker 2: them to sit. Look, if there's something flawed about this

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Speaker 2: case and it turns out that got the wrong guys,

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Speaker 2: you know, this will be presented to the grand jury

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Speaker 2: within ten days. Anyway, they'll be out of the worst

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Speaker 2: thing that happens here is that someone who is credibly

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Speaker 2: accused of a mass shooting sits in jail for ten

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Speaker 2: days while the authority sorted out. That's something that is

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Speaker 2: not offensive to our system or to society or anything

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Speaker 2: of the sort. And it's just common sense. And this

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Speaker 2: is the kind of stuff again that makes people look

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Speaker 2: at this and shake their head. And it's fascinating to

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Speaker 2: me that even the mayor, wait, and the mayor is out.

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Speaker 2: The mayor was somebody who was really really bragged about

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Speaker 2: remaking the carhouse and pushing these things and attacked cash

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Speaker 2: bonds and look.

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Speaker 1: I remember that that isn't that irony? I don't want

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Speaker 1: to say delicious, because you know this is such a

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Speaker 1: serious crime, Steve Gooden, But here's a guy who campaigned

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Speaker 1: on restorative justice bond reform. We got to be better,

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Speaker 1: a gentler. We can't punch down. We've got to treat

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Speaker 1: people better. Okay, great, And now he's in the podium saying,

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Speaker 1: how the hell could this person get out into the

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Speaker 1: fifty thousand dollars buck It's because you and I said

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Speaker 1: progressive push for this, That's.

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Speaker 2: All I mean, that's absolutely read. I read this quote. Iomas,

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Speaker 2: you know, I think I still have a cell phone

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Speaker 2: here somewhere else. Who was going to text it it

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the party now, like we will have been

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Speaker 2: saying this for years and look, this is just in

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Speaker 2: This is one of those things that's been out there

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Speaker 2: for about ten to fifteen years on the progress among

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Speaker 2: progressive politicians that drives people. Not just one of these things.

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Speaker 2: It's an article of faith on that side. And you know,

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Speaker 2: like the way I try to explain it to my

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Speaker 2: my democratic friends is like this, and like, you know

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Speaker 2: how in seeing some people feel when you talk to

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Speaker 2: a hardcore conservative and say, guys, look, we believe in

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Speaker 2: gun rights, but we don't you think we should have

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Speaker 2: some gun control. Maybe you shouldn't be able to carry

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Speaker 2: an A forty seven out in public or AK forty

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Speaker 2: seven in public, and they say, no, no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: it's got to be it's all or nothing. That's how

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Speaker 2: democrats sound when you in common sense people talk about

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Speaker 2: balbell or form. Well, it's just fundamentally unfair that rich

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Speaker 2: people can postpond and well, no, actually, when you look

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Speaker 2: at the facts of the matter, when someone commits a

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Speaker 2: violent offense, there ought to be an ability to hold

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Speaker 2: on to them. And frankly, in the federal system there

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Speaker 2: is no cash bond. You have what's called a detention hearing,

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Speaker 2: where a magistrate, a federal magistrate looks at the facts

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Speaker 2: of the case, and if you're caught with a bunch

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Speaker 2: of drugs or guns, you're going nowhere. You have no

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Speaker 2: opportunity to postpond. It's been like that in this country

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Speaker 2: for two hundred and thirty four years in the federal system,

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Speaker 2: and the country hasn't fallen apart, and it's not some

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Speaker 2: grave injustice. So the idea that we're even we're just

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Speaker 2: playing with ourselves in state courts over this stuff. Ideologically,

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Speaker 2: at all they're doing is they're cycling more people out

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Speaker 2: to hurt others get killed, and it's just bad. Well

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Speaker 2: it's good here, but it's really bad here. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And there are some judges out there. I mentioned names

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Speaker 1: of Silverstein ordation and ordered banning objections during bond rulings,

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Speaker 1: which is just absolutely I don't even know if that's

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Speaker 1: legally permissible. The mont Is Merriweather thing. We bonded out

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Speaker 1: on a weapons disability charge and participated in the downtown brawl.

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Speaker 1: The Chiefs of Police Association wants to have roundtables the

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Speaker 1: judges refuse to participate in that they feel them bold

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Speaker 1: and to continue this pattern that puts the public in serious,

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Speaker 1: serious jeopardy. And that's back, of course by people like

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Speaker 1: mayor Pirival, who now wants to undo this and go, well,

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Speaker 1: maybe this was a bad decision, with Au admitting it

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Speaker 1: was a bad decision. The judge judge in this case

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Speaker 1: you mentioned, Judge Mundy, he said a bond Steve good

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Speaker 1: than fifty thousand dollars in a single full only as

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Speaker 1: assault charge to the shooting on Saturday at Riverfront Live.

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Speaker 1: He said, look, my hands are tied by the charging decision,

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Speaker 1: says that's the max. That's all I can do. Did

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Speaker 1: he have any more discretion, broader discretion or you just

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Speaker 1: chose not to exercise it?

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, I it's arguable I would say that.

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Speaker 2: I but I think he did. I mean, look, I

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Speaker 2: mean is tech he is correct. They've put forward a

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Speaker 2: single case of a flows assault, not the nine charges

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Speaker 2: or however many this guy hit. They didn't also charge

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Speaker 2: him with any of the gun offenses for whatever reason,

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Speaker 2: which would have justified a higher bond. So they did

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Speaker 2: put the judge here in a kind of a bad place.

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Speaker 2: Why they made those decisions at this early stage, I

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Speaker 2: don't know. Maybe they're waiting on additional ballistic evidence. I

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Speaker 2: don't know, but it sounds pretty clear to me they

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Speaker 2: were able to put a gun on this guy's hand

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Speaker 2: and that there should have been more charges put there.

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Speaker 2: So that's correct. But I want to zone back in

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Speaker 2: on this public safety piece and if the judge could have,

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Speaker 2: in my view, argued and found that because of the

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Speaker 2: nature of the overall incident, that there was a true

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Speaker 2: public safety issue and that that justified a higher bond.

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Speaker 2: And what's going on in that arragement room all the time.

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Speaker 2: We're having judges who are deviating from this public safety requirement,

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Speaker 2: and because of the bond issue is usually washed through

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Speaker 2: the system so quickly because we have what we call

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Speaker 2: a rapid and dim grandury system. When all the felonies

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Speaker 2: and serious churches are dealt with in about ten days

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Speaker 2: and you have a new judge and it takes over,

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Speaker 2: there really is no effective way for the state to

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Speaker 2: appeal these bad decisions. And frankly, now we have a

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Speaker 2: situation where you have the prosecutor's office and all the

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Speaker 2: judges who are sort of on the same page it

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Speaker 2: seems ideologically anyway, But if the prosecutor wanted to appeal effectively,

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Speaker 2: they're not really going to have time. These judges are

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Speaker 2: smart enough to know that. So they're really not posting

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Speaker 2: these high bonds for their ideological reasons, it seems to me.

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Speaker 2: I mean again, I don't know, but I mean we're seeing,

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Speaker 2: you know, they're campaigning on these sorts of things that

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Speaker 2: made public statements to this effect. So you're right. I mean,

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Speaker 2: Bernard Muddy was put in a very bad position, I

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Speaker 2: think by the charging decision, but he could have deviated,

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Speaker 2: as I understand that under Ohio law and put a

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Speaker 2: really high bond on this because there are clearly more

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Speaker 2: charges coming, no question. And again the Feds didn't mess

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Speaker 2: around with it. And I think that is the other

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Speaker 2: really interesting thing here because traditionally, but the US Attorney's

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Speaker 2: Office would work with the state attorney's office citing which

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Speaker 2: case is to take. And here it looks as though

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Speaker 2: from everything I have heard, that the US Attorney's Office

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Speaker 2: and the FBI at HTF just came in unilaterally and said, no,

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Speaker 2: we're taking we're taking this away because this isn't right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he is an attorney. Former prosecutor Defenser Steve Good

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Speaker 1: on the show on seven hundred WLWD News yesterday that

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Speaker 1: the individual, one of the individuals responsible for the mass

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Speaker 1: shooting at Riverfront Live on Saturday or left nine people

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Speaker 1: shot and hundreds traumatized, could walk fan a fifty thousand

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Speaker 1: dollars bond that was posted yesterday by Judge Munday in

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Speaker 1: his court and said, listen, that's all I can do.

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Speaker 1: Even have apt had Peerval and other Democrats backpedaling on

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Speaker 1: the issue of restorative justice, because this is what it

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Speaker 1: looks like. You know, it's one thing to cite someone

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Speaker 1: or penalize someone and set a high bond because they've

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Speaker 1: got a bag of weed. But when you hire a

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Speaker 1: violent predatory criminal with a track record, that person needs

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Speaker 1: to be locked up and knocked up sooner rather than later.

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Speaker 1: In that regard, there's kind of an I don't know

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Speaker 1: if it's a loophole or not. Steven, maybe this supplies

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Speaker 1: with our standard ground law. I'm not sure, but take

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Speaker 1: me through the fact that the shooter on Fountain Square.

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Speaker 1: We sim shoot the two individuals at Citybird Chicken on

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Speaker 1: Fountain Square. That person was led out because the claim

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Speaker 1: that was self defense at the two inside the store,

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Speaker 1: and the video inside City Bird backed up that. The

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Speaker 1: I think the seventeen and eighteen year old if I'm

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Speaker 1: not necessair, nineteen year old pulled guns out and we're

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Speaker 1: going to shoot him through the glass while they're sitting

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Speaker 1: having chicken at a restaurant, and Fountain Square with a

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Speaker 1: bunch of people around, said it was self defense. This

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Speaker 1: guy was prohibited from having a weapon because he is

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Speaker 1: already convicted in this case. You've got individuals here who

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Speaker 1: both had a jacket on them that prevented them from

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Speaker 1: having a weapon, and yet they get around to turn

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Speaker 1: around and claim self defense. Do we kind of like

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Speaker 1: have a pattern of a loophole here?

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Speaker 2: What a little bit now, I think, frankly, I heard

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Speaker 2: this too. I saw this on the news, and I

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Speaker 2: actually watched a club of the video. This guy's lawyer,

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Speaker 2: the moprint Live Shooter. He is going to claim self defense,

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Speaker 2: but of course, as you point out, he is legally

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Speaker 2: barred from having a firearm. And it is exactly like

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Speaker 2: what happened to Fountain Square. Now, it looks as though

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Speaker 2: on Fountain Square they are still pursuing at least felony

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Speaker 2: charges against the individual for having the firearm to begin with,

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Speaker 2: even though it looks as though he did establish a

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Speaker 2: right to self defense and some of that you know

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Speaker 2: you're right stand your ground in Ohio actually make self

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Speaker 2: defense claims easier to assert, I guess because you don't

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Speaker 2: have a duty to retreat anymore. That's really all the change,

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Speaker 2: and it's very fact specific to every case. But here

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Speaker 2: in the Riverfront Live situation, I mean, the idea that

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Speaker 2: this guy that there were multiple individuals going into this

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Speaker 2: what I'm told was a private party with five or

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Speaker 2: six hundred people getting in there with firearms, both of

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Speaker 2: whom were legally barred from owning the firearms and having

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Speaker 2: them on their body. I mean, that's unfortunately that doesn't

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Speaker 2: under a highalog go to self defense piece. But they

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Speaker 2: will both base some charges. And it looks as though

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Speaker 2: the federal prosecuted US attorney is focusing on the weapons aspect,

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Speaker 2: at least initially in the charges that he is bringing

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Speaker 2: in federal courts. So it looks as though at least

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Speaker 2: the system was correcting itself from this instance on this.

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Speaker 2: But that is like that is the heart of the

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Speaker 2: problem that we're seeing in Cincinnati, which is convicted felons

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Speaker 2: carrying guns with impunity and it not being taken very

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Speaker 2: seriously in the state courts.

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Speaker 1: We spent like six million dollars on what they call

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Speaker 1: targeted community alternatives to prison. It's a program, another program,

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Speaker 1: no more programs, I swear to God. But and it's

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Speaker 1: designed to divert following the offenders away from incarceration. Someone

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Speaker 1: with the Cobbs record cocaine trafficking, two weapons under disability convictions.

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Speaker 1: I don't understand how your candidate for diversion in that

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Speaker 1: guy who decides why he would be eligible for diversion,

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Speaker 1: how's that work?

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Speaker 2: Well? I mean, typically it's a judicial decision where the

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Speaker 2: prosecutor's office does sign off and they what they look

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Speaker 2: at or non violent offenses, and for better or worse,

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Speaker 2: by and large, under Ohio law, merely possessing the gun

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Speaker 2: but not using the gun is considered, you know, non violent.

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Speaker 2: I mean they're looking at they're looking as someone who

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Speaker 2: actually has pulled the gun on someone or who has

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Speaker 2: attacked someone. And and the kind of drift of where

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Speaker 2: the system is right now, not just in Cincinnati but

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Speaker 2: statewide is to look at drug offenses in sort of

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Speaker 2: a more forgiving way. And I mean there's there's certainly

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Speaker 2: an argument to that effect, but what the way I

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Speaker 2: I always looked at it and the way we looked

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Speaker 2: at it back in the day when when I worked

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Speaker 2: in the in the prosecutor's office under very different administrations,

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Speaker 2: is we looked at drug users and addicts in a

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Speaker 2: very different light than we looked at drug dealers, because

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Speaker 2: we saw drug dealers as folks who tended to be armed,

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Speaker 2: who were capable of violence, whether they had committed violence

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Speaker 2: in the offense or not, and that they were profiting

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Speaker 2: off the misery and addiction of others. So we always

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Speaker 2: looked at those folks very differently, and I think that

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Speaker 2: has eroded over time, and now just drug offenses generally

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Speaker 2: are looked at by a lot of the judges and

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Speaker 2: a lot of the prosecutors, not just here but statewide.

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Speaker 2: There's just being well, it's just part of the overall

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Speaker 2: drug problem, quote unquote, And I think we would all

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Speaker 2: be better served as society to look at if you

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Speaker 2: had the way we looked at it at a grand jury,

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Speaker 2: is drugs and you're using and drugs in your system,

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Speaker 2: you know, maybe that's somebody that does need to be

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Speaker 2: diverted into a treatment scenario and not have their lives ruined.

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Speaker 2: Drugs plus a gun and the drugs are packaged in

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Speaker 2: a certain way, that's the guy that that's the guy

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Speaker 2: that deserves to go to prison because he's profiting from it.

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Speaker 2: And that kind of common sense sort of analysis is

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Speaker 2: sort of followed by the wayside over the years.

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Speaker 1: From what I yeah, no question, Sarah Herringer, Patrick's widow

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Speaker 1: is pushing a law that would require real time ankle

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Speaker 1: monitor data and making cutting one off an automatic felony.

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Speaker 1: And it hasn't passed. But if that had been on

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Speaker 1: the book with his murder, Mordecai Black want to say,

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Speaker 1: Patrick Herringer, does the same logic apply to supervision of

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Speaker 1: repeat gun defenders post release like this?

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Speaker 2: You know it should. And I'll tell you, I think,

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Speaker 2: you know what if if we get a probation officer

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Speaker 2: here on the phone with us and he was given

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Speaker 2: some truth surm, I think they would tell you that

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Speaker 2: the technology and the funds just aren't there at the

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Speaker 2: county level to really monitor these ropes. And I got

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Speaker 2: to know Sarah, unfortunately pretty well through all this, and

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Speaker 2: I can tell you that you know that there were

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Speaker 2: many many failures there. There were personal failures, but there

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Speaker 2: was a system's failure. There's a technology failure. We have

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Speaker 2: the ability to to do real time monitoring both on

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Speaker 2: probation and then hurt the situation. Unfortunately with Mordecai black

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Speaker 2: on parole, A's just we don't as a society spend

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Speaker 2: the money there, we don't staff these things the right way,

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Speaker 2: and we just have not made it a priority. And

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Speaker 2: that's a shame because if we are going to let

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Speaker 2: people out and have these inkle monitors, they ought to

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Speaker 2: be able to work. And really it's the same technology

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Speaker 2: they've had since the mid nineties. And you're right, you

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Speaker 2: can take a kitchen knife and cut one of them off.

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Speaker 2: You were so sure. So it's no way to do that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the idea that we don't have the technicians say,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I've got an Apple watch right now, and

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Speaker 1: it'll sell you know, it'll wear it at night. You know,

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Speaker 1: it'll tell you your quality sleep, will tell you how

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Speaker 1: much you're sleeping. You'll tell you if you're snoring, if

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Speaker 1: you tell if you're an a FIB, give you an

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Speaker 1: EKG and do all these amazing things. You need to

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Speaker 1: tell me that the technology doesn't exist to go, hey, listen,

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Speaker 1: if you cut this thing off, instant alarm bells go

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Speaker 1: off or in the case of a gun film like this,

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Speaker 1: maybe they need one that uses that technology that would

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Speaker 1: sense if that individual shoots a firearm and an automatic

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Speaker 1: goes off and said, this person who is prohibited from

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Speaker 1: having a firearm just shot one off, you go and

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Speaker 1: arrest the guy. How hard is that? I don't think

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Speaker 1: it's that hard. But we've got to have the political

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Speaker 1: will power, of course, to do these things. He is

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Speaker 1: Steve Gooden, attorney at law, former prosecutor around defense. Steve

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Speaker 1: all the best, Thanks again for coming on the show anytime.

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Speaker 1: Scott take care always got great legal analysis for us.

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Speaker 1: Here it's it's mindless and you know how to show

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Speaker 1: you the problem that I have with politics as a

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Speaker 1: no nonsense, straightforward, common sense kind of guy, a political

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Speaker 1: if you will, that this is a great example of

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Speaker 1: progressives and Democrats talking out of both sides of their

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Speaker 1: mouth that you know, you have have to have pure

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Speaker 1: of all in other progressives who ran on the whole

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Speaker 1: doctrine of restorative justice and bond reform, well, this is

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Speaker 1: what it looks like. These are the effects of that

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Speaker 1: that these guys get out and just commit crime after

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Speaker 1: crime because some people you can't reform. Actually a lot

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Speaker 1: of people you can't reform. Why give them a second, third,

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Speaker 1: or fourth chance. It's just throwing lives. The blood is

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Speaker 1: on their hands, on their hands. I'll switch up in

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Speaker 1: a second here, and there's another speaking of politics in

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Speaker 1: the squaretgard The same thing is kind of happening. You know,

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Speaker 1: in an election, there was a lot made about you know,

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Speaker 1: transgender people in bathrooms, in that stuff. There's not enough

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Speaker 1: of them to cause the problems that were indicated during

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Speaker 1: the election. But I got an example of, you know,

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Speaker 1: turning the tables around here of that happening actually in

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Speaker 1: Warren County in a very very serious, disgusting case that

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Speaker 1: had this been someone that fit that category, you would

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Speaker 1: hear more about it. But instead it's just a sad case.

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Speaker 1: It faded away. You know what I'm talking about. If

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Speaker 1: you don't, I'll explain next seven hundred ww