WEBVTT - Steve Goodin - Hinton Trial

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<v Speaker 1>KRC Detox Station. Hey, 1955 KRC Detox Station.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm E.

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<v Speaker 1>Friday. Welcome back. Resident 55 KRC legal expert, because I

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<v Speaker 1>do not qualify, from the law firm of Porter Wright.

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<v Speaker 1>Steve Gooden, good to have you back on the show,

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<v Speaker 1>my friend.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, good to be here.

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<v Speaker 1>And you've been following this Rodney Hinton Jr. case. He,

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<v Speaker 1>of course, is on trial for murdering Hamilton County Sheriff

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<v Speaker 1>Deputy Larry Henderson and Hinton saw a video of his

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<v Speaker 1>son being killed by police officers because his son was

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<v Speaker 1>brandishing a firearm and fleeing. I think most of my

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<v Speaker 1>listening audience knows the details on that, but after watching

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<v Speaker 1>a videotape of the incident, the officer camera tape, he

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<v Speaker 1>obviously was a little distraught, and he left and then

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<v Speaker 1>ultimately decided he was going to run over Hamilton County

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<v Speaker 1>Sheriff's Deputy Larry Henderson, who literally had no connection whatsoever

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<v Speaker 1>with the activity that led to his son's death. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>with that in mind, let me start with He charged

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<v Speaker 1>with murder, but the judge, Judge Jody Lubbers, yesterday entertained

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<v Speaker 1>a motion by Clyde Bennett, the lawyer for the defendant,

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<v Speaker 1>seeking to include reckless homicide charges. And after thinking about

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<v Speaker 1>that for a while, she went ahead and said, okay, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>we're going to allow the jurors to be able to

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<v Speaker 1>consider reckless homicide a step down from the original charge.

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<v Speaker 1>What does this mean in your mind, Steve Gooden?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it's a bad sign for the prosecution. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>this is one of these cases that a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>folks thought, you know, just couldn't be lost. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>there's eyewitness systems striking Deputy Henderson. There's no question he

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<v Speaker 2>struck Deputy Henderson. I mean, he admits it. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>it happened. You know, it was just one of these

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<v Speaker 2>facts that cannot be gotten around. But what his defense

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<v Speaker 2>team has done a really good job of doing is,

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<v Speaker 2>is laying out the fact that this Mr. Hinton had pre-existing,

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<v Speaker 2>serious pre-existing mental health problems. His family members have come in.

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<v Speaker 2>He had been hospitalized before. He had medicated before for

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<v Speaker 2>severe bipolar disorder, was not on those medications at the time.

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<v Speaker 2>And they have basically entered into evidence this idea that

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<v Speaker 2>Hinton was really trying to kill himself because he also,

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<v Speaker 2>at the same time, he struck Hinton struck a pole,

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<v Speaker 2>a light pole. And I know it's all bizarre to me,

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<v Speaker 2>but they're doing a pretty good job of muddying the waters.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, suicidal ideation has nothing to do with knowing the

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<v Speaker 1>difference from right or wrong.

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<v Speaker 2>No, absolutely.

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<v Speaker 1>Nor does having a mental health problem, pre-existing or otherwise.

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<v Speaker 1>The question in an insanity plea is, You could not

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<v Speaker 1>discern the difference between right and wrong at the time

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<v Speaker 1>you committed the heinous act of running over Camelton County

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<v Speaker 1>Sheriff's Deputy Larry Henderson. I mean, they have all the experts.

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<v Speaker 1>You got video camera footage of him. You had the

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<v Speaker 1>accident reconstruction expert talking about how he went from zero

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<v Speaker 1>to plus 50 in about a second or two, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>or four or five seconds. He adjusted the direction of

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<v Speaker 1>his car on the fly to make sure he was

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<v Speaker 1>aiming at the sheriff's deputy. And they even have a

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<v Speaker 1>psychiatrist testimony that he admitted out loud that he really

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<v Speaker 1>kind of did that. I mean, I know I had

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<v Speaker 1>to turn a little bit to hit him, Hinton said.

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<v Speaker 1>That says he was aware and engaged in, sounds to

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<v Speaker 1>me like a specific action in order to bring about

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<v Speaker 1>the result that happened.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, look, I agree with you. I wouldn't struggle with

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<v Speaker 2>this at all. I thought this was murder from the beginning.

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<v Speaker 2>Like I said, I didn't know Larry Henderson well, but

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<v Speaker 2>I did know him, and I'm absolutely sick and disgusted

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<v Speaker 2>as to where this seems to be going. But I

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<v Speaker 2>can tell you that I've watched big, big chunks of

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<v Speaker 2>the trial that are being live streamed, you know, spoken

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<v Speaker 2>to some of the attorneys involved. And just what seems

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<v Speaker 2>to be playing out in that room is that they have,

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<v Speaker 2>is that his defense team has really sort of muddied

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<v Speaker 2>the waters as to whether or not his mental health

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<v Speaker 2>situation was so severe. He couldn't, do anything in there

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<v Speaker 2>and I don't think they've got enough evidence to get

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<v Speaker 2>a true not guilty by reason of insanity but they

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<v Speaker 2>have done a good job it seems of creating some

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<v Speaker 2>sympathy for him and the prosecution's case has been very

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<v Speaker 2>slow and scattered it took them four days to get

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<v Speaker 2>the accident reconstructionist into the record which is something they

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<v Speaker 2>should have done right away because that was their best

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<v Speaker 2>evidence the black box in the vehicle clearly shows a

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<v Speaker 2>last minute swerve which indicates some awareness of what he

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<v Speaker 2>was doing. And the idea that he was actually trying

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<v Speaker 2>to kill himself by hitting a telephone pole or a

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<v Speaker 2>light pole is absurd. But they do have, they had

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<v Speaker 2>an eyewitness to that effect that said, look, he seemed

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<v Speaker 2>to be trying to go at the pole more than

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<v Speaker 2>anything else, even though the black box does show a

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<v Speaker 2>last minute swerve, as you noted. So I think what

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<v Speaker 2>they're trying to do is to create enough sympathy so

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<v Speaker 2>that there might be a compromise between, you know, I

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<v Speaker 2>don't think there's anyone on the jury that wants to

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<v Speaker 2>totally let him go. I doubt most of the jury's

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<v Speaker 2>buying this not guilty by reason of insanity defense. So

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<v Speaker 2>the idea is to give a jury that might be

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<v Speaker 2>deadlocked or have a couple holdouts this middle ground. And

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<v Speaker 2>I think reckless homicide here would be a real travesty

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<v Speaker 2>if that's where it goes. But it just, it feels

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<v Speaker 2>that way to.

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<v Speaker 1>Me, unfortunately. The mental element here, moving it away from

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<v Speaker 1>whether he knew right or wrong, the mens rea element

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<v Speaker 1>with a murder is an intentional murder. He planned it.

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<v Speaker 1>He wanted to do it. It was a specific target.

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<v Speaker 1>He knew everything about it. But insofar as reckless homicide,

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<v Speaker 1>that's sort of an inadvertent death, isn't it? There was

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<v Speaker 1>no intent to kill somebody?

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<v Speaker 2>That's exactly right. In order for the jury to get

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<v Speaker 2>to this reckless homicide idea, they have to buy that

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<v Speaker 2>he had this suicidal ideation. was trying to hit the

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<v Speaker 2>pole and just basically killed Deputy Anderson incidentally. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think that's what happened. I don't think that's

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<v Speaker 2>what the evidence shows happened. But, you know, really it

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<v Speaker 2>feels like to me the strategy from the defense all

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<v Speaker 2>along was to get one or two jurors. They weren't

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<v Speaker 2>looking for an acquittal. They were looking for a hung

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<v Speaker 2>jury or to lay enough of an evidence, like lay

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<v Speaker 2>enough of a factual predicate to convince the judge to

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<v Speaker 2>put in some sort of lesser charge So this, it

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<v Speaker 2>looks like, was their strategy all along. We'll see if

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<v Speaker 2>they buy it. I mean, it could very well be

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<v Speaker 2>that the jurors just turn around and go back and say, look,

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<v Speaker 2>we're going to go with the accident reconstruction testimony and

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<v Speaker 2>what the psychologist said, because it seems to me that

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<v Speaker 2>Hinton almost basically admitted it to the psychologist who reviewed

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<v Speaker 2>him from the state. But he also, his psychologist, I

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<v Speaker 2>watched most of her testimony, And she did a really, really,

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<v Speaker 2>I disagree with it, but a very compelling job of

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<v Speaker 2>laying out just basically, for lack of a better term,

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<v Speaker 2>that Mr. Hinton was crazier than we knew and crazier

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<v Speaker 2>than it seemed and had like a longer and more

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<v Speaker 2>detailed and more severe mental health history than would have

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<v Speaker 2>been reported elsewhere. And I also, and I don't want

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<v Speaker 2>to just sit here and beat on the prosecution, but

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<v Speaker 2>I did that for many years down there. And I've

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<v Speaker 2>tried these NGRI cases. They're very hard to do. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>And what the reports I'm getting is that the jurors

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<v Speaker 2>were really, you know, obviously could be obviously seen being

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<v Speaker 2>bored and lost by the state's case. And I get

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<v Speaker 2>a part of that is just a function of how

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<v Speaker 2>these cases have to be put on. They're kind of

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<v Speaker 2>strange in that you have to lay a detailed factual

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<v Speaker 2>predicate by the prosecution about what happened and then wait

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<v Speaker 2>for the defense to actually put on evidence about mental state.

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<v Speaker 2>And then you come back and rebut that. It's what's

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<v Speaker 2>called an affirmative defense. So you're in a weird place

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<v Speaker 2>as it is. But the bottom line is it took

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<v Speaker 2>the prosecution four days of jury selection, opening statements, and

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<v Speaker 2>trial before they put the first evidence into the record

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<v Speaker 2>about intent. And there's concern among some of the other

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<v Speaker 2>folks I know who have been observing this that they

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<v Speaker 2>might have kind of lost the jury in the process.

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<v Speaker 2>I think you've got to come out strong and fast.

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<v Speaker 2>first impressions matter here. And it feels as though there

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<v Speaker 2>were moments where it was kind of meandering. And I

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<v Speaker 2>would also note this eyewitness who raised the issue about

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<v Speaker 2>whether or not he was actually trying to drive into

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<v Speaker 2>the pole and kill himself. That was a state witness.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, that was not something the defense put on.

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<v Speaker 2>That was a witness for the prosecution who got twisted

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<v Speaker 2>up and said that and who put all that out

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<v Speaker 2>on cross-examination. So, You know, if this ends up as

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<v Speaker 2>a reckless homicide, I think there's going to be a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of questions in that prosecutor's office about how we

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<v Speaker 2>got here.

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<v Speaker 1>Steve Gooden from Porter Wright, when do you expect them

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<v Speaker 1>to begin deliberations, if you had to guess?

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<v Speaker 2>Probably not until next week. I mean, I just heard

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<v Speaker 2>from what the judge kind of announced is there's probably

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<v Speaker 2>another full half day, at least today, of psychiatric testimony.

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<v Speaker 2>I would note that there are two psychologists testifying for

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<v Speaker 2>the state. There was an independent examiner as well that

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<v Speaker 2>the court appointed. We don't know what she's going to

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<v Speaker 2>say yet, but the fact that the prosecution is calling

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<v Speaker 2>her and not the defense indicates that they also found that.

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<v Speaker 2>So this may change over the course of today, but

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<v Speaker 2>we would anticipate closing arguments later this afternoon or Monday,

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<v Speaker 2>and I wouldn't imagine the jury really starts delivering seriously

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<v Speaker 2>until Tuesday of next week.

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<v Speaker 1>Steve Gooden, cannot thank you enough for your thoughtful analysis

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<v Speaker 1>and joining the program late this morning. It was a

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<v Speaker 1>pleasure to have you on. I'll look forward to talking

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<v Speaker 1>with you again, hopefully about this in the very near future.

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<v Speaker 1>Steve Gooden, Porter Rights, where you find him and his team,

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<v Speaker 1>and they are outstanding lawyers. Steve, take care and thank you.