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Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, we are indeed back in studio.

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Speaker 2: Outstanding guest Andy Luger kind enough to stop by once again,

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Speaker 2: and as I mentioned, if you have questions, we might

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Speaker 2: be able to squeeze some of those in several have

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Speaker 2: actually already come in.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 2: The the Bradshawn Brian Cavan text line at six four

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Speaker 2: six eight six, welcome back to the program.

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Speaker 1: Good to have you back. Yeah, I know you.

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Speaker 2: Do you I can't remember we talked about this before.

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Speaker 2: Do you embrace this kind of cold? I mean, you're you're, you're,

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Speaker 2: you're Northeast guy, right, yeah, originally so is it? Or

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Speaker 2: do you does this kind of cold get obnoxious to.

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Speaker 3: You every time? Every time? Are there people that embrace this? Well?

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Speaker 2: Probably not as much as they pretend, I'm guessing yeah,

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Speaker 2: but there's some people bothered by it, more bothered enough

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Speaker 2: if they say they could leave, because you could leave,

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Speaker 2: you go other places. I mean, you're, you're, you know,

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Speaker 2: established enough, you could end up being a big shot

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Speaker 2: attorney anywhere pretty much at this point.

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Speaker 4: Because yeah, that's a nice thought. I love living here.

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Speaker 4: That's clear weather. It's stupid, but I love living here,

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Speaker 4: and I've lived here for a long time, and I'm

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Speaker 4: not going anywhere. I've got a cold sin. So I

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Speaker 4: sound a little off, but I'm not going anywhere. But

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Speaker 4: I don't know how you embrace this. I think people

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Speaker 4: lie to themselves. Okay, I embrace the state. I embrace

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Speaker 4: what yeh do here? I love it here. I hate this.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that's honest. See, I think that's honest.

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Speaker 2: I try to be You're not one of us, though,

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Speaker 2: because you weren't born here, no as I neither of mine.

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Speaker 2: I've been told that over and over. I'm approaching forty

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Speaker 2: years here, and that's still not long enough. I was told, yeah,

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Speaker 2: including by the lake great sed Hartman a long time.

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Speaker 1: Ago, whenever I would never be one of us.

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Speaker 3: Good for him, and he you know I knew him

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Speaker 3: a little.

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Speaker 1: Bit, I bet you did.

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Speaker 3: He was very good friends with my wife's grandfather. Really yeah.

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Speaker 4: My wife's grandfather was a football player at the you

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Speaker 4: Lou Gross, Big Lou Gros, Okay, and they were very

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Speaker 4: very close all the way till the end.

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Speaker 3: Really yeah. Yeah, So I got to know Seid a

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Speaker 3: little bit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, through Grandpa Lou didn't exactly welcome me to town

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Speaker 2: when I anybody else who's a writer or a columnist

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Speaker 2: is the enemy, even though if you work for the

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Speaker 2: same newspaper it's supposed to be. If they work for

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Speaker 2: another newspaper, that's just the nature sid very competitive. Speaking

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Speaker 2: of competitive, your vikings haven't been very nutley. But you

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Speaker 2: have a message I think that you would like to convey,

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Speaker 2: and we'll get to the other stuff.

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Speaker 1: So don't worry.

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Speaker 2: I know a lot of people want to get to

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Speaker 2: the other stuff. We will, but a message that an

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Speaker 2: urgent one that you think is important to convey surrounding

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Speaker 2: the proper approach with JJ McCarthy.

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Speaker 4: Yes, so this season's over. That's not rocket science. But

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Speaker 4: the rest of the season to me is the pre

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Speaker 4: preseason for next year. Maybe you guys parties, I haven't

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Speaker 4: been listening as much as I probably should.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, I have a job. Yeah you're kind of busy.

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Speaker 1: I understand, but.

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Speaker 4: This is the beginning of the pre preseason and what

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Speaker 4: we need to do seems to me, we meaning all

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Speaker 4: of us who care about the team, is just figure

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Speaker 4: out where we can go with this guy, and to

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Speaker 4: me that means throw the ball. And I know you're

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Speaker 4: big on running the ball, and in the past I

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Speaker 4: agreed with you. You should have been doing that more,

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Speaker 4: you know. But at this point you're saying fourth and

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Speaker 4: one with the other guy, and we get the Garrol

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Speaker 4: you premeny in pass so that but this time throw

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Speaker 4: it and his guards. He is really a Brosmar guy.

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Speaker 1: He is the original Brosemer Brownstone.

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Speaker 3: The other guy.

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Speaker 1: I mean, SAME's Max Brosmer, mister Luger because.

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Speaker 3: It's not your PREMI.

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Speaker 1: The other guy.

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Speaker 3: All right, so nobody knows what we're talking about.

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Speaker 2: We've we've invoked a dated reference once or twice before.

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Speaker 4: Okay, because that's right when you're watching the game, that's

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Speaker 4: what you thought about.

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Speaker 1: I did.

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Speaker 3: I kind of look it up.

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Speaker 4: So your point is, throw the ball, find out can

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Speaker 4: he get it to Jefferson?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and he's got these great receivers. What can he do?

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Speaker 3: Throw simple patterns, whatever it is. Don't worry so much

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Speaker 3: about are we going to win or lose. I don't

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Speaker 3: believe in throwing the rest of the season to get

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Speaker 3: a draft pick. But let's just test him out in

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Speaker 3: different situations. And again nobody asked my advice. This is

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Speaker 3: you know, Koc doesn't call me and Luga what do

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Speaker 3: you think?

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Speaker 4: But this has been on my mind, let's get him

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Speaker 4: back there throwing the ball, testing out different patterns and

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Speaker 4: see what we can do. I think that would also

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Speaker 4: be good for Jefferson. Let's try to get the ball

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Speaker 4: to Jefferson. We have the best receiver in the league.

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Speaker 3: It's now become ridiculous that we don't even throw to him.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's right, that's my view. No, I think

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Speaker 2: that's very insightful. I don't disagree with it. I still

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Speaker 2: think you don't want to run the risk of traumatizing

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Speaker 2: the kid if he's throwing at sixty two times and

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Speaker 2: getting sacked eight times, because I also don't think he's

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Speaker 2: a person who's going to stay healthy all that easy.

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Speaker 1: But I get what your point is.

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Speaker 2: And the one liberating aspect of being four and eight

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Speaker 2: is the pressure to that extent is off, right, It

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Speaker 2: really is. I mean, you're not even though they did

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Speaker 2: not intend to be in this position, that's a position

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Speaker 2: they're in. So go about your business, just trying to

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Speaker 2: have little victories within games.

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Speaker 1: That's what you're looking for.

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Speaker 3: That's what I'm looking for.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And I also I'm looking to see because I

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Speaker 4: still believe in him.

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Speaker 3: And I may be in the minority on this, So

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Speaker 3: I don't know where you're at.

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Speaker 2: I'm still willing to watch. I'm still I'm not given

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Speaker 2: up on him.

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Speaker 1: No, I am not.

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Speaker 3: So I'm a little bit beyond willing to watch. Well,

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Speaker 3: I'm a little worried what.

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Speaker 4: Some of the analytics indicate. But yeah, it's still really

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Speaker 4: his first yeah, whatever, seventy games played, whatever it is.

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Speaker 4: I just think you got to test it out, you know.

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Speaker 4: I don't want him to get hurt. I don't all

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Speaker 4: that stuff, but let's find out before the preseason, before

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Speaker 4: the next season. We waited so long for this season,

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Speaker 4: I did, at least with anxious anticipation, and now it's gone.

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Speaker 3: So that's my view.

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Speaker 2: Do you have any Are you a Vikings fan who

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Speaker 2: suffers from any Sam Donald envy, any Daniel Jones envy,

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Speaker 2: any Aaron Rodgers envy? No?

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Speaker 4: I despise those thoughts because, wait, Dan, let's go back

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Speaker 4: to the end of last season. How many people were

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Speaker 4: clamoring to re sign Sam Donald after the playoff tobacle. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 4: the last two games were in debacle. Every but he

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Speaker 4: sort of said, that's the real Sam Donald. I got

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Speaker 4: nothing against Sam Donald, and I hope he does great.

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Speaker 4: I just think that we're reinventing history. There were I

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Speaker 4: did not hear anybody say that's our franchise quarterback, so

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Speaker 4: to reinvent it and say look how great he's doing

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Speaker 4: this season. And by the way, you know, I don't

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Speaker 4: think he's a super Bowl quarterback. He's better than what

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Speaker 4: we've got. But you invest in the future. You pick

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Speaker 4: your future, you stick with it, you do the best

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Speaker 4: you can. At some point, if it's not working, you

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Speaker 4: give up and move on. But I'm not there.

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Speaker 1: How old were you on December fourth, nineteen seventy seven?

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Speaker 3: All right, so I was born in fifty nine.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so do you have much Were you a Vikings

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Speaker 1: fan then?

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Speaker 3: No, I was so.

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Speaker 4: I was living in so by December of seventy seven,

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Speaker 4: I was already in college. I was an Amherst College

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Speaker 4: football fan. We were undefeated as a freshman team. Just

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Speaker 4: in case anybody was checking, I was a Giants fan.

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Speaker 4: There wasn't much of that back then, but I kind

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Speaker 4: of enjoy I think I told you this story how

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Speaker 4: I met Alan Page when I moved here.

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Speaker 3: Yep, I enjoyed the Vikings.

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Speaker 4: I'm not one of those people who thinks there's some

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Speaker 4: scar or scarlet letter for having lost for super Bowls.

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Speaker 3: My teams didn't get to the Super Bowl. So have

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Speaker 3: I always admired the Vikings and.

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Speaker 4: Place you played outside to his freezing cold, like we've

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Speaker 4: talked about.

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Speaker 3: I thought that was great.

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Speaker 2: I bring up the date because I'm reminded by a

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Speaker 2: good friend of the program from the Flynn family, Dan Flynn.

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Speaker 2: December fourth, nineteen seventy seven, what was then the greatest

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Speaker 2: comeback or largest comeback in National Football League history. The

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Speaker 2: Vikings erased a twenty four to nothing third quarter deficit

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Speaker 2: and beat the Niners at the met twenty eight, twenty seven.

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Speaker 2: Rookie quarterback Tommy Kramer enters early in the fourth and

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Speaker 2: throws three touchdown passes, including the sixty nine yard game

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Speaker 2: winner to Sammy White with one minute, thirty eight seconds

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Speaker 2: to go. So you probably don't have much recollection of that.

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Speaker 4: I don't remember Tommy Kramer being the guy who would

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Speaker 4: throw that many touchdown passes. Nothing against Tommy, be careful

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Speaker 4: because he listens. Yeah you might hear from him. I've

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Speaker 4: met him. A nice guy. I just don't remember him

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Speaker 4: being the guy who would throw you.

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Speaker 1: Know, yeah, he had his moments. For sure, I.

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Speaker 3: Believe in JJ. I'm putting that on there.

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Speaker 2: No, that's that's it's it's you're try to be consistent.

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Speaker 1: You're saying that's the guy.

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Speaker 4: And I also believe in chaos. Until you turn on him,

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Speaker 4: I'm not going to turn on He won't turn on

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Speaker 4: if he if he really can't do it, you call

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Speaker 4: the question. Yeah, but I believe in him.

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Speaker 2: All right, let me ask you this way, all right,

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Speaker 2: do you have to how much more do you have

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Speaker 2: to see the rest of this season to say, yes,

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Speaker 2: we're starting training camp with him and him alone again,

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Speaker 2: designated as a guy, no competition, it's him. Because that's

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Speaker 2: the question moving forward that affects a lot of people,

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Speaker 2: including Justin Jefferson and this whole operation based on how

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Speaker 2: old this team is that you do you just give

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Speaker 2: him the job again or do you bring in a

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Speaker 2: veteran that at least has a chance.

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Speaker 3: Uh?

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Speaker 2: What how much do you have to How much does

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Speaker 2: Andy Luger have to see the rest of the season.

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Speaker 4: I got to see some improvement and I've got to

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Speaker 4: see progression. Uh, and then I kind of want to

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Speaker 4: hear what Jefferson says. I want to hear what the

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Speaker 4: guys on the field say, because they're going to see it.

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Speaker 2: Well, they're all saying wonderful things. But they've said that

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Speaker 2: from the beginning. But but we're going to know what

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Speaker 2: Jefferson really thinks at the end. He's you know, he's

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Speaker 2: in the prime of his career.

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Speaker 3: If he sees it.

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Speaker 1: If there was Chris Carter and then Randy Moss here,

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Speaker 1: we already know, we know for sure.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's it. They're gone too, So he is unusual

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Speaker 4: in that right. The other thing I want them to

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Speaker 4: do is stop fumbling.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we have a takeaway turnover ratio problem we do

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Speaker 2: where I think we're either last or second to last

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Speaker 2: in the league.

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Speaker 4: On uh turner, somebody gains ten yards on the ground

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Speaker 4: and I'm yelling, go down and hold onto.

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Speaker 1: The that's a problem too. All right, let's do this.

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Speaker 1: Let's get our first break in.

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Speaker 2: We're chatting with former US attorney Andy Lueger, and yeah,

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Speaker 2: we decided to start with the football talk because I

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Speaker 2: know it was in him and he wanted to get

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Speaker 2: it out. So we'll do that. Or we have done that,

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Speaker 2: and now we're going to get into some other issues.

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Speaker 2: His reaction to a couple of pretty timely stories. Some

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Speaker 2: of those stories he has been very closely connected to

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Speaker 2: over the last several years. So we'll do that as

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Speaker 2: we have Andy until the top of the hour Russo Radio.

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Speaker 2: You ever at a hockey guy, You ever got a puckhead?

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Speaker 3: Not once? Really don't.

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Speaker 4: I can't stay to hockey, I know, and that's a problem.

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Speaker 4: I can't skate.

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Speaker 3: I tried.

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Speaker 4: I literally can't skate. So watching people fly around un.

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Speaker 1: Skate, is it an impressive to you?

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Speaker 3: I just it like sends Okay, it's just me anxious because.

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Speaker 1: I can't do it as you can't do it.

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Speaker 4: I can go out on a football field and knock somebody.

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Speaker 3: Down, get knocked it down, which you've done for ten years.

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Speaker 4: I can hit a baseball, I can hit a back,

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Speaker 4: I can shoot a free throw.

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Speaker 1: I can't do that, so it's not relatable.

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Speaker 3: I can't relate to it, and it makes me anxious.

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Speaker 3: Fair enough.

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Speaker 2: The sports the toy Department section of our conversation with Andy,

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Speaker 2: I think is pretty close to DOUN will come back

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Speaker 2: and talk other matters next.

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Speaker 5: Sunday's matchup with Washington is almost here. You can find

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Speaker 5: our street team on the Plaza outside US Banks Stadium ASCAW.

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Speaker 5: You can win Papa Murphy's game day meal deals for

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Speaker 5: an entire year. More INFODKFA dot com. The keyword is calendar.

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Speaker 2: Well, you're getting ripped, Andy Lueger by Gary the Mailman

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Speaker 2: who rights from Albert Lee for the record. Gary the

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Speaker 2: Mailman loves this weather. So he's saying he really does

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Speaker 2: embrace it.

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Speaker 3: You know what it does, God bless him. I want

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Speaker 3: to be clear.

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Speaker 4: If people love this weather, great, Okay, people love hockey,

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Speaker 4: it sounds like it's.

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Speaker 1: Almost resentful of them for loving.

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 1: Not okay, you're just saying you can't love it, and

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Speaker 1: you're not going to pretend.

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Speaker 4: The first time I saw what is it? Ice fishing

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Speaker 4: huts on the lake? Was it the Midgie? It was

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Speaker 4: at I al must sell over, But God bless I'm

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Speaker 4: a libertarian at heart.

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Speaker 3: Would you load? You do what you want to do?

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Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, that's fair enough, whether it's.

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Speaker 3: Hockey or ice fishing or whatever it is.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So where should we begin.

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Speaker 2: We had Kessler in here yesterday and a lot of

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Speaker 2: what we talked about was a story that was breaking

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Speaker 2: yesterday afternoon. Actually, we seem to have indication that ICES

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Speaker 2: is going to come in here pretty aggressively, pretty soon.

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Speaker 2: Maybe I've missed something. They're already here today attempting to

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Speaker 2: target the Somali population. And then there was a headline

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Speaker 2: indicating that the police chief of the City of Minneapolis said,

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Speaker 2: our advice is call nine to one one if you

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Speaker 2: find yourself in any kind of I guess confrontation with ICE,

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Speaker 2: which struck me as the recipe for some potentially really

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Speaker 2: dangerous situations here.

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Speaker 3: What do you make of this? So two things. One,

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Speaker 3: I'm worried we don't need a repeat of what happened

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Speaker 3: in June twenty twenty. This city really doesn't deserve to

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Speaker 3: go through what we went through before. We're coming together

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Speaker 3: in so many ways, we're finding our way forward after

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Speaker 3: the horrific events of the pandemic and the murder of

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Speaker 3: George Floyd. That's number one. But number two is we're

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Speaker 3: getting off target.

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Speaker 4: The conversation we should be having, and the conversation we

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Speaker 4: were starting to have, is one, how does Somali community

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Speaker 4: leaders deal.

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Speaker 3: With this level of fraud?

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Speaker 4: Not because we're blaming the entire community, because nobody should,

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Speaker 4: and I'm never going to do that, but leaders need

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Speaker 4: to embrace the problem, talk about it, have conversations with

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Speaker 4: law enforcement. There needs to be some response to this,

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Speaker 4: and that's number one. Number two is talking about the

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Speaker 4: solutions to what happened. And you know, we're going to

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Speaker 4: enter into a campaign season there are going to be

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Speaker 4: all these recriminations about what happened. We should be having

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Speaker 4: a sober but aggressive conversation about how to fix it.

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Speaker 4: And once these guys who I don't know, published their

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Speaker 4: story about al Shabab money, you know that the money

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Speaker 4: went to al Shabab, which I'll talk about, we completely

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Speaker 4: went off track. And just as a career person working

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Speaker 4: in law enforcement as a prosecutor, the left and the

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Speaker 4: right both do this. You know, law enforcement and prosecutors

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Speaker 4: do a great job identifying a problem, prosecuting, investigating, exposing

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Speaker 4: a problem, and then people take it and run with

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Speaker 4: it politically, and we lose the thread.

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Speaker 3: And that's what I the moment I.

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Speaker 4: Saw that story, and now we've got to investigate whether

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Speaker 4: the he went to al Shabab.

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Speaker 3: That's that's almost entirely nonsense.

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Speaker 4: We investigated the money, and unless something's happened in the

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Speaker 4: months that I've been gone, we know where the money

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Speaker 4: went and got this fraud money. These were these were

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Speaker 4: guys committing fraud. They want to get rich, they agreed, Yeah,

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Speaker 4: they want to buy houses. You know, they were living

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Speaker 4: in a cramped department.

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Speaker 3: Pay one.

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Speaker 4: They've got a Lexus and a Mercedes Benz and a

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Speaker 4: two million dollar house the next day.

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Speaker 3: That's what it is.

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Speaker 4: But all of a sudden, somebody alleges without any evidence,

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Speaker 4: that it was going to fund terrorism. That sets us

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Speaker 4: off track. Then it becomes about the Somali community supporting terrorism.

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Speaker 4: We're gone, We're off down a side road. And that's

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Speaker 4: and the left does this too, and I hate it.

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Speaker 1: Here's what's interesting.

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Speaker 2: I looked up. I found this via men Post. This

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Speaker 2: is from twenty sixteen. Okay, here's your headline witness for

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Speaker 2: the prosecution, US Attorney Andy Andrew Luger on isl verdict,

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Speaker 2: the Somali community and the media. And it did trip

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Speaker 2: and me remind me that you actually do have some

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Speaker 2: experience when it comes to prosecuting in cases in which

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Speaker 2: what you were able to prove in court was that

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Speaker 2: there was a terror terrorist connection.

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Speaker 1: Correct, yeah, different case, but you do have some history

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Speaker 1: with this.

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Speaker 2: I bring it up again to make the point that

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Speaker 2: you're not afraid to talk about it when you feel

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Speaker 2: the evidence suggests that's the store.

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Speaker 4: We have the biggest Isis conspiracy case in the country

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Speaker 4: right here, and I ran that investigation. Great prosecutors, great

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Speaker 4: FBI agents. Nobody was afraid of anything. We dove into that.

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Speaker 3: We addressed it, we prosecuted it.

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Speaker 4: I met with Somali community leaders repeatedly to talk about

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Speaker 4: solutions that's not this, and it's sort of just frustrating,

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Speaker 4: and maybe you know, I wanted to talk about this.

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Speaker 4: It's frustrating when left right activists, politicians, whatever they are,

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Speaker 4: hate something that people are working on and doing a

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Speaker 4: great job with it and go off on a tangent

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Speaker 4: and everybody follows that tangent. And I've had it on

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Speaker 4: both sides.

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Speaker 2: So I want to read a couple comments from this

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Speaker 2: is from a a I think a right leaning publication

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Speaker 2: called City Journal.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the one.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, for the record, I want to

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Speaker 2: check these numbers with you because I think these are

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Speaker 2: up to date. Indictments in the Feeding Our Future case

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Speaker 2: have now been brought against seventy eight defendants. The newest

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Speaker 2: of the seventy eight cases was charged on November twenty fourth.

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Speaker 2: The seventy eight indictments have resulted in seven guilty verdicts,

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Speaker 2: to acquittals, fifty guilty please, and five fugitives, with one

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Speaker 2: deceased defendant thirteen unresolved cases await trial. Does that sound about.

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Speaker 1: Right to you? Pretty accurate?

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Speaker 3: It does?

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Speaker 1: For the record, Now here's what he writes.

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Speaker 2: Records show that the defendants sent millions of dollars to

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Speaker 2: Kenya and China. They also send money to Somalia, mostly

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Speaker 2: in cash. Al Shabab controls large portions of Somalia and

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Speaker 2: collects a mafia style street text on all financial transactions

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Speaker 2: in areas under its control. And in this way, some

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Speaker 2: of the Feeding Our Future and other fraud proceeds likely

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Speaker 2: ended up in the hands of al Shabab, which he

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Speaker 2: says would be outrageous. However, he adds this, there is

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Speaker 2: no evidence that the perpetrators in these cases intentionally directed

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Speaker 2: money to Al Shabab or any other terrorist organization. That

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Speaker 2: evidants were not looking to fund terrorism, but to enrich

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Speaker 2: themselves and fund their lifestyles.

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Speaker 1: Does that sound right? Is that the Scott Johnson wrote this?

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Speaker 4: Scott so Scott, Scott writes for Paroline. Okay, I know

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Speaker 4: Scott well. He covered this very closely, and Scott is

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Speaker 4: pushing back on that original story. He's a great guy,

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Speaker 4: very smart, very conservative. But I respect him and disagree

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Speaker 4: with him, but I respect him. Scott knows that these

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Speaker 4: guys weren't terrorists. And so the original story in the

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Speaker 4: City Journal.

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Speaker 1: City Journal exactly, Yes, that.

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Speaker 4: Apparently sort of got this wave going. Now we're investigating

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Speaker 4: this and new calls for investigations, etc. And there are

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Speaker 4: number of problems with it. And it's the same problem

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Speaker 4: that I saw on the left when I was US attorney,

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Speaker 4: and I would get you need to investigate X. People

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Speaker 4: think they know something or they suspect something, they call

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Speaker 4: for investigations, and they never say who's going to do

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Speaker 4: the investigation so and they never say when those people

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Speaker 4: are doing your new investigation into something for which there's

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Speaker 4: no evidence, what are the cases they're not working on.

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Speaker 4: Who are the really bad guys that we know about

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Speaker 4: who are not getting prosecuted Because we're going down a

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Speaker 4: rabbit hole.

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Speaker 3: And that's what's happening here.

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Speaker 2: So in fact, what you're coming back to again is

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Speaker 2: keep your eye on the ball. There's enough there to

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Speaker 2: go after. But you cheapen those cases if you pretend

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Speaker 2: this is one of those cases, right, and.

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Speaker 4: It has a moralizing effect on the people who are

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Speaker 4: working on the cases.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: I know that not right from past experience. All Right,

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Speaker 2: I'm looking at the headline here. I want to get

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Speaker 2: your reaction to. In fact, we had a couple of

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Speaker 2: Texters who wanted to get into this as well. A

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Speaker 2: judge in Minnesota is facing heat after she overturned a

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Speaker 2: guilty verdict for an individual convicted in a seven point

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Speaker 2: two million dollar fraud scheme that involved taxpayer money. Abdi

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Speaker 2: Fatah Yusef and his wife were charged in June twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty four after they were accused of sealing seven point

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Speaker 2: two million from the state's medicaid program of running a

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Speaker 2: home health care business that lacked an office building and

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Speaker 2: operated for years out of a mailbox, according to the

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Speaker 2: Minnesota Attorney General's office. Now, there's obviously been a lot

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Speaker 2: of pushback to the judge in this case, basically, as

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Speaker 2: I understand it, vacating saying that there was too much

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Speaker 2: that the judge was troubled by the manner in which

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Speaker 2: the fraud was able to be perpetuated, but the case

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Speaker 2: relied heavily on circumstantial evidence, adding that the state didn't

442
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:06,840
Speaker 2: rule out other potential reasonable inferences.

443
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:07,960
Speaker 1: What do you know about this case?

444
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:10,720
Speaker 3: Not much more than that.

445
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:15,800
Speaker 4: So I can't criticize the ruling, but I can comment

446
00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:19,520
Speaker 4: as follows. I've been a prosecutor on and off since

447
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:23,959
Speaker 4: nineteen eighty nine and a defense lawyer in between. I

448
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 4: only know of two other cases where judges overturned a

449
00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:31,600
Speaker 4: jury verdict. Both of those cases were reversed on appeal

450
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:39,600
Speaker 4: because it's not for the judge in general to decide

451
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:46,359
Speaker 4: inferences and circumstantial evidence that you instruct a jury with

452
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:50,360
Speaker 4: the fact that circumstantial evidence is the same has the same.

453
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:51,480
Speaker 3: Weight as direct evidence.

454
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 4: So I've had plenty of circumstantial evidence cases. I had

455
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,320
Speaker 4: a mafia case back in Brooklyn, little mafia case back

456
00:22:59,359 --> 00:22:59,760
Speaker 4: in Brooklyn.

457
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:03,120
Speaker 1: That was all the contradition in terms little mafia cases.

458
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 1: Guy was a wasn't you know they have they have

459
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,200
Speaker 1: left level of wise guys. He was not high that

460
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:09,240
Speaker 1: high on the pecking order.

461
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:11,560
Speaker 4: Is barely a wise guy. He was more like a

462
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:15,479
Speaker 4: wise kid, and he wasn't all that wise. But it

463
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,520
Speaker 4: was all circumstantial evidence because I couldn't get anybody to testify,

464
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 4: and so it was all based on circumstantial evidence. That's

465
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,960
Speaker 4: not that unusual, and you don't have to disprove other inferences.

466
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,440
Speaker 4: You've got a show beyond a reasonable doubt that this

467
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:29,199
Speaker 4: person did it based on the evidence, and a.

468
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,520
Speaker 3: Jury thought that. So I I find it troubling, But

469
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 3: I don't know the specifics of the case, don't know

470
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:36,600
Speaker 3: the judge.

471
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,160
Speaker 1: And I haven't read the opinion. Yeah, because this wasn't

472
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:38,879
Speaker 1: one of your cases.

473
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:41,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, No, and you know, it's like, so that's my

474
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:46,280
Speaker 4: It's very very very rare and should be very rare.

475
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,240
Speaker 4: I really believe in jury's I I'm one of those

476
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:51,720
Speaker 4: people who think that juries get it right most of

477
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:55,240
Speaker 4: the time. And I've seen it, even in cases I've lost.

478
00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:58,919
Speaker 2: I've heard almost those exact same words from the late

479
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:00,920
Speaker 2: great Rond Rosenbaum. He used to tell me that over

480
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 2: and over again as well. He very much believes in juries,

481
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 2: not that they're perfect, but that he does tend to

482
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:07,120
Speaker 2: believe in them.

483
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,960
Speaker 3: Yep, and Ron lost his sheriff cases too.

484
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

485
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 2: The New York Times story, which covered a lot of

486
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 2: ground that really has been reported locally and regionally, but

487
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 2: kind of put it in a big box. And it's

488
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,160
Speaker 2: the New York Times, so obviously it's going to get

489
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 2: a significant amount of attention. In fact, let me say,

490
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 2: I can find the headline how fraud swamped Minnesota's social

491
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:37,240
Speaker 2: services system on Tim Walls's watch. Now, a couple of

492
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 2: things I want to get your reaction to with.

493
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:40,359
Speaker 1: Then the piece.

494
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 2: Some of this I think you and I have discussed before,

495
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:45,159
Speaker 2: but I want to get back to it. There's a

496
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 2: quote one of the individuals quoted in this piece, his

497
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 2: name Cassey Megan or Morgan. I hope I'm not mangling

498
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 2: that name, described as a Somali American who formerly worked

499
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,880
Speaker 2: as a fraud investigator for the Minnesota Attorney General's office.

500
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:05,120
Speaker 2: And this individual said elected officials in the state were

501
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,159
Speaker 2: reluctant to take more assertive action and response to allegations

502
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 2: of the Somali community. The suggestion here here's what he said.

503
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 2: There is a perception that forcefully tackling this issue might

504
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,919
Speaker 2: cause political backlash among the Somali community, which is a

505
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,639
Speaker 2: core voting block for Democrats, said mister Morgan, who was

506
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 2: among the few prominent figures in the Somali community to

507
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 2: speak out about the fraud. Do you believe that is

508
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,880
Speaker 2: part of this story that should be continued to be explored.

509
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:39,920
Speaker 4: Well, everything should be explored. I don't, but i'll tell

510
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:44,159
Speaker 4: you why. What I think it's a variant of that.

511
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:49,639
Speaker 4: But what I have seen is a fear of being

512
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 4: labeled a racist.

513
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:52,639
Speaker 1: Which we have discussed before. I'm going there next, but

514
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:53,119
Speaker 1: go ahead.

515
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 4: That's more of what I've seen, because I did see

516
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,200
Speaker 4: people speaking out about this. There was a lawsuit filed.

517
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 4: The people who ran Feeding our Future were very aggressive

518
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 4: going after anybody who challenged them and getting support for

519
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 4: their cause. Not because we're going to lobby Democrats and

520
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,920
Speaker 4: they're going to, you know, go with us, but accusing

521
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 4: people of being racist if they challenge what Feeding our

522
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 4: Future was doing and others. I called that out when

523
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,479
Speaker 4: I was still US attorney. Did you called it out

524
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:27,160
Speaker 4: with us last time?

525
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 1: You're on?

526
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,239
Speaker 4: And I think those days are over because I think

527
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 4: people see it for what it is and I think

528
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 4: it's going to be very hard to do that. Ever, again,

529
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 4: that doesn't mean you go after the whole Somali community.

530
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 4: Doesn't mean you know everybody who's involved involved in fraud.

531
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,199
Speaker 4: It just means don't come to me saying I'm a

532
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:50,120
Speaker 4: racist if I'm asking questions about your business.

533
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 1: To your point, those days are over.

534
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 2: In the Times piece, in an email, the group Feeding

535
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 2: Our Future told the state agency, this is a Minisota

536
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 2: Department of Education officials that failing to promptly approve new

537
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 2: applicants from quote minority owned businesses unquote would result in

538
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 2: a lawsuit featuring accusations of racism that would be quote

539
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 2: sprawled across the news.

540
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 4: And that's what they did, and they did that lawsuit

541
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,120
Speaker 4: and every people rightly.

542
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 3: I mean, maybe we talked about this.

543
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,359
Speaker 4: You're a mid level manager at one of these departments

544
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:25,200
Speaker 4: overseeing this stuff, and how do you feel about sitting

545
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 4: in a deposition being accused of racism?

546
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:28,640
Speaker 1: Not good?

547
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 3: Not good?

548
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,159
Speaker 4: And is that worth it to you? Does that have

549
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 4: a chilling effect on you? I think it done.

550
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 2: We need to have more fearless officials in that regard

551
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 2: to right because that did absolutely contribute to this situation.

552
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 2: And I don't think enough people you have. But I

553
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 2: don't know, I don't think enough people have owned up

554
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 2: to that. That's part of the problem. I think where

555
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 2: people get cynical about how is it ever really going

556
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 2: to change if there's not an admission or two from

557
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 2: other people to say, yeah, that that is part of

558
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 2: what contributed to how long this went on before the

559
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 2: alarm bells went off.

560
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 4: Well, I think we're I think we're over it. And

561
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,440
Speaker 4: maybe I'm naive, but I saw it. I called it out.

562
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,360
Speaker 4: They tried the same thing. If people remember when they

563
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,119
Speaker 4: when they went and bribed a juror, Yes, that's true,

564
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 4: you're right, part of the instructions. And I went on

565
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 4: about this at length when we when we indicted the

566
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 4: people who were part of that conspiracy, they wrote instructions

567
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 4: for the juror, and three separate times in the one

568
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 4: page of instructions were these people are all racist. This

569
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,679
Speaker 4: is a racist investigation. It's a racist prosecution. That was

570
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 4: the mindset we get away with saying that. And I

571
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 4: stood up at the press conference when we indicted these

572
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 4: guys and said, these days are over.

573
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 3: Stop it.

574
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 4: Nobody should fall for this nonsense ever again and call

575
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 4: it out. And I think, I really do think it

576
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 4: ain't gonna work going forward, whoever is governor, whoever's in

577
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 4: these agencies.

578
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 2: Another individual who quoted in this piece, I want to

579
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 2: get your reaction to a couple of things, he said.

580
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 2: Ahmed Samatara, professor at McAllister, described in this piece as

581
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 2: a leading expert in Somali's studies, set a reckoning over

582
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 2: the fraud and its consequences for Minnesota was overdue.

583
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 3: Quote.

584
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 2: American society and the denizens of the state of Minsisota

585
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 2: have been extremely good to Somali's said doctor Somitar, who

586
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 2: is Somali American. Doctor Solitar said that Somali refugees who

587
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 2: came to the United States after their country civil war

588
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 2: were raised in a culture in which stealing from the

589
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 2: country's dysfunctional and corrupt government was widespread. Minnesota, he said,

590
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 2: proved susceptible to a rampant fraud because it is quote

591
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 2: so tolerant, so open, and so geared toward keeping an

592
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 2: eye on the week. Now there's a lot there too,

593
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 2: because you have been one of the few people you're

594
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 2: very precise to make sure you do not blame an

595
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 2: entire community. But the last time you were on you

596
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 2: got specific about whether there was something within one element

597
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:06,320
Speaker 2: of the culture that contributes to this sort of the

598
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 2: remarkable number of individuals who have been prosecuted in this case.

599
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 2: And that to me is what the professor seems to

600
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,719
Speaker 2: be saying. And I'll say again, I don't think enough people.

601
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 2: There's too many people afraid that if they even go

602
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 2: that far. Oh broad brush, you're trump on this. You

603
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 2: want to just everybody who has any sort of Somali

604
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 2: in their blood, you want them out of here.

605
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 3: I think that's what we're losing right now. With all

606
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 3: of the.

607
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 4: Ice stuff and the al Shabab stuff, We've lost the focus.

608
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 4: So they're estimate between sixteen and eighty thousand people of

609
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 4: Somali descent in Minnesota. I interact with people of Somali

610
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 4: descent at the doctor's office, you name it. None of

611
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 4: them are involved in fraud. None of them have anything

612
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 4: to do with any of this stuff. There is an

613
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 4: element within this community, and there are in other ethnic communities.

614
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 4: I prosecuted cases on the East Coast, all within one,

615
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 4: you know, ethnic community who are engaged in this. And

616
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 4: they sought each other out, They went to their friends,

617
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 4: their neighbors, and they said, let's do this.

618
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 3: We're all going to get rich. And they did.

619
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 4: But that doesn't have anything to do with the you

620
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 4: know if it's two hundred people, then you've got whatever

621
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 4: seventy nine two hundred people who are not So go

622
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 4: to the leaders in the community, as we did with

623
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 4: the ISIS stuff.

624
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 3: Have conversations, not accusations, conversations about where is this coming from,

625
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 3: why are people doing this, call it out, stamp it down,

626
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 3: say we will not tolerate this. And I think that

627
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 3: was about to happen. I think all that went underground.

628
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 1: Now we are chatting with former US Attorney Andy Lueger.

629
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 1: Let's do this.

630
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 2: Let's get one more break in. I got a lot

631
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 2: more ground to cover. We're going to try to cover

632
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 2: as much as we can. Some good texts are coming

633
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 2: in as well, and there's definitely a couple of developments

634
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 2: in this story, or I guess stories that are kind

635
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 2: of connected to this story, that I want want to

636
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 2: get Andy's reaction to.

637
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 1: So I'll still have time to do that.

638
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 2: We will talk about Andy's favorite sport, hockey at the

639
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 2: top of the five o'clock hour with Michael Russo.

640
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 1: Russo Radio starts.

641
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 2: Then we are back with former US Attorney Andy Lueger

642
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 2: Russo Radio Top of the hour. This question, well, that's

643
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 2: not a question it's an observation from the text line

644
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 2: speaks for a few other people, and it's hard to

645
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 2: know how you might want to respond to it, or

646
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 2: either of us might want to respond to it, because

647
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 2: it's so general. But here's he's listing, and here's what

648
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 2: he writes. You are all afraid to speak the truth.

649
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 2: And I wish six or five to one. I think

650
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 2: he knows what he thinks the truth is, but he

651
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 2: needs to articulate what he believes that truth is and

652
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 2: what we are afraid of, what you are afraid of

653
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 2: in terms of you're pretty concent distant criticism of the

654
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 2: level of fraud, certainly starting with feeding our future, with

655
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 2: some other cases as well that's taking place, so and

656
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 2: getting specific about even within one aspect of the Somali

657
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 2: culture getting into this calling out the folks who basically

658
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 2: were called off of this stuff were afraid because they

659
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 2: thought they were going to be called racist. So I

660
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 2: don't know what is there is there something you're you're

661
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 2: holding back from us that you want to now confess.

662
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 3: I'm not known for holding back.

663
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 4: I didn't think so, and I'm not known for being

664
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 4: afraid to tell the truth. But I appreciate that.

665
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 3: Because that shows a side of me that I you know,

666
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 3: I'll incorporate. I don't know. Well, if he's.

667
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 4: Got a specific tell me and then we'll pass it along.

668
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 4: I'm happy to you a hundred percent.

669
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 2: I know you loathe you. Try to be an equal opportunity.

670
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 2: I think ripper about politics because you think that's the future.

671
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 2: And part of the reason we're in the position we're

672
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 2: in is we've got people who refuse to call out

673
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 2: quote unquote their side because it can sustance to the

674
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 2: enemy and it's it's a road we've discussed on this

675
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 2: show many times with and without you, But I have

676
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:10,439
Speaker 2: to try this on you, and you tell me where

677
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 2: you disagree. The governor was on Meet the Press. I

678
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 2: think this is this past Sunday, asked by the host

679
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 2: if he takes responsibility for widespread fraud discovered in some

680
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 2: Minnesota social service programs. Here was the Wall's answer, I

681
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 2: take responsibility for putting people in jail. Now, I gotta

682
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 2: tell you, Andy, that's pretty rich to me, okay, because

683
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 2: I we can argue about how much responsibility a governor

684
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 2: has in some of these cases if we want, but

685
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 2: it takes some gall to say I am.

686
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 1: One thing I am going to take credit for is

687
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,400
Speaker 1: we're putting him away. He didn't put him away.

688
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,359
Speaker 2: Your office, through a couple of administrations, put him away.

689
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 2: So isn't that shouldn't that be a little bit of

690
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:55,720
Speaker 2: troubling even to you as a Democrat.

691
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:57,279
Speaker 3: So here's for six' five one.

692
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 4: GUY i don't want to be in the middle of

693
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:05,839
Speaker 4: this political fight because WHATEVER i say gets blown up

694
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,280
Speaker 4: and used in all sorts of WAYS i can't. CONTROL

695
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,400
Speaker 4: i want to let the people who are engaged in

696
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:14,399
Speaker 4: this fight have the, fight, okay and criticize each other

697
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 4: and call each other out and do.

698
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 3: THAT i prosecuted this.

699
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 4: CASE i lived this case with an amazing team of

700
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 4: people at THE, fbi THE, irs The postal inspectors in my,

701
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,239
Speaker 4: office all of whom are heroes to.

702
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 3: ME i don't want to be in the middle of

703
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 3: the politics on. THIS i just. Don't it's not Because i'm,

704
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 3: Afraid it's BECAUSE i don't want to do.

705
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 2: It, okay Then i'll, SAY i just think it was

706
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 2: an extremely bad look AND i don't know what, again

707
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:42,240
Speaker 2: what the line, is BUT i don't think he's found,

708
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 2: it AND i do think he's vulnerable and he should

709
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 2: be in my. Opinion, now let me ask you ABOUT

710
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 2: i have some of the details on this case AND i,

711
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 2: don't BUT i don't know THAT i have all of.

712
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:53,399
Speaker 1: Them but it's coming up.

713
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 2: Again minnesota judge told the State's department Of education that

714
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 2: had a real problem after the agency suspended payments to

715
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 2: an organization before federal prosecutors uncovered a fraud scheme that

716
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 2: has now resulted in charges for seventy eight individuals in

717
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 2: twenty twenty. Two this is according to A newsweek's, story

718
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:17,399
Speaker 2: but there are other. Accounts wall said a judge ordered

719
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 2: the state to continue making payments defeeding Our. Future, NOW

720
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,400
Speaker 2: i THOUGHT i saw in, fact here's the statement in

721
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 2: twenty twenty twenty, two feed in Our future demanded THAT

722
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 2: mda make, payments and the court made it clear that

723
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 2: IF md were to continue the legal fight to withhold those,

724
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 2: PAYMENTS md would incur sanctions in legal. PENALTIES i thought

725
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 2: this WEEK i saw a response from that court's office

726
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 2: saying that is factually.

727
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 1: Incorrect can you give us shed some light on?

728
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 4: This, yeah And i'll go back to when it, happened

729
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,880
Speaker 4: SO i know the judge a good judge In Ramsey.

730
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 4: County what he, said if you read the, opinion is

731
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 4: you haven't presented evidence of, fraud presented evidence of sort

732
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,279
Speaker 4: of paperwork, problems And i'm not going to stop allow

733
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 4: you to stop payment on that. Basis so it wasn't

734
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 4: as though he SAID i don't see any, FRAUD i

735
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 4: don't care about.

736
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 3: Fraud make the.

737
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:16,279
Speaker 4: Payments my recollection of his opinion and what he said

738
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 4: in court was without you presenting evidence of, fraud this

739
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,839
Speaker 4: other stuff that you're claiming that they're not getting their

740
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 4: paperwork in on. Time and THEN md, said, well, we'll,

741
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 4: we'll we'll work with feeding our future to improve the.

742
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 4: Process so this wasn't about. Fraud that's my. Recollection he's

743
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 4: a good. Judge it was a good. JUDGE i think

744
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 4: people went after him, incorrectly AND i think people realize

745
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 4: that after the.

746
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 3: Fact, well but.

747
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 1: Does that then give a little bit OF.

748
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:50,720
Speaker 2: I guess you say interference in their favor to the administration, saying,

749
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 2: look we when we tried to put up a couple

750
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 2: of red, flags a judge left us with no.

751
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 3: CHOICE i don't think it's that.

752
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 4: SIMPLE i think what really happened here is the racism

753
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 4: angle came up and people reacted to, that who were.

754
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 4: Litigating that's my take on. It it was who wants

755
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 4: to be labeled a? Racism, OKAY i go back to

756
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 4: that BECAUSE i think that played a big role. Here

757
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 4: not you, know we want votes from people.

758
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 3: Or whatever.

759
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:25,800
Speaker 2: Under the classification of is this throwing out the baby

760
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 2: with the? Bathwater here's the. Headline this is from a

761
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 2: couple of days. Ago using anti fraud, Powers MINNESOTA dhs

762
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:39,839
Speaker 2: sets two year ban on new group home. Licenses they've

763
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:42,759
Speaker 2: ordered a two year. Ban these are programs designed to

764
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,840
Speaker 2: help people with disabilities live in their. Communities the department

765
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:49,960
Speaker 2: will stop issuing new home and community based services, licenses

766
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:54,799
Speaker 2: stop accepting any new license, applications cancel existing license, applications

767
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,239
Speaker 2: and prevent any license providers from adding new.

768
00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 1: Services orders to take effect.

769
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 2: Next and this is viewed as all, right we've got

770
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 2: to put some safeguards in.

771
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:05,799
Speaker 1: Place is this a bridge too?

772
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 2: Far or is this a fair and Inevitable based on

773
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 2: the last several, Years.

774
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 4: It's probably fair and. Inevitable BUT i don't. KNOW i,

775
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 4: mean this was a program that was really riddled with.

776
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 4: Fraud so can you get in there and try to fix? It,

777
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:22,319
Speaker 4: well you, know fix the plane while you're flying, it

778
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 4: or you have to just land it and put it.

779
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 4: Down WHAT i always, say you, know these are the

780
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 4: kinds of CONVERSATIONS i have all the, time not on

781
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:33,439
Speaker 4: the RADIO ce but other. People i've never run a state,

782
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:37,360
Speaker 4: agency SO i don't. Know you, Know i'm not looking to,

783
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 4: Either so don't nominate. Me BUT i don't know if

784
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 4: you can fix this while you fly, it or if

785
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 4: people have to kind of endure some pain so we

786
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:47,320
Speaker 4: can fix.

787
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,959
Speaker 3: It and that's a judgment call. It it's a tough.

788
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 4: Call but the consequence of this kind of fraud is

789
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 4: there will be people who won't get services that they

790
00:39:57,920 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 4: that they need and.

791
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 1: Deserve i'm looking also in our final, minutes.

792
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 3: You've got a lot of. Headlines there's a lot of, stuff.

793
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 2: Man there's a lot of stuff to, cover and we,

794
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:08,480
Speaker 2: could we, could we could do another whole, hour but

795
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:11,239
Speaker 2: unfortunately we got to talk hockey much chagrined at the

796
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 2: top of the.

797
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 3: Hour And god bless everybody who wants to hear.

798
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 2: That, ryan your, Guy Ryan, pasiga you're a big pretty well.

799
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:20,880
Speaker 2: Yeah one of his quotes from The times piece is

800
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,400
Speaker 2: getting a lot of. Attention no one was doing anything

801
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:25,800
Speaker 2: about the red. Flags it was like someone was stealing

802
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 2: money from the cookie jar and they kept refilling. It

803
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:31,759
Speaker 2: AND i, think to varying, degrees we've talked about this.

804
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:34,360
Speaker 2: Before is that pretty? Much does that capture?

805
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 4: It yes and. No nothing is that good For, ryan

806
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:42,319
Speaker 4: but nothing is. That it's a good, Quote and you know.

807
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 1: Your attorneys have to.

808
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 2: You you're smart enough to know you have to have

809
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 2: sometimes fiffy quotes to get.

810
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 1: Attention.

811
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 4: CORRECT i follow in the footsteps Of Joe Friedber yes.

812
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:54,760
Speaker 4: Too so it's not that simple because there were people

813
00:40:55,239 --> 00:41:00,160
Speaker 4: early on who saw the. Problem they raised, it the

814
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 4: feeding our future people hired, lawyers they went after, them

815
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 4: they called them. Racists i'm repeating WHAT i said. Before

816
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 4: so it's not like everybody was sort of blind to.

817
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 4: This when you go from zero sixty and are starting

818
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 4: collecting a million dollars a month out of, nowhere people

819
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 4: notice and they saw. It i'm not making excuses for.

820
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 4: Them i'm not making excuses for. Anybody it's just that

821
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 4: it's a little too much to say nobody was paying

822
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 4: attention because there were, people AND i admire those.

823
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 3: People some of them have testified in the.

824
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:33,799
Speaker 4: Trials SO i just pulled back a little bit from

825
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:36,400
Speaker 4: What ryan was, saying you, know and It's Joe friedberg.

826
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 1: Moment, Lastly.

827
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 3: I'm.

828
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 2: LOOKING i don't know how much you know about, this

829
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 2: but it got a lot of. Attention employees with The

830
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 2: Minnesota Department Human, SERVICES i think they had their own

831
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:50,480
Speaker 2: ex Handle twitter, handle and they went hard in the

832
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 2: wake of The New York times, story servicing saying that

833
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 2: there was great, failure the lack of, accountability and they

834
00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,760
Speaker 2: they among the allegations here.

835
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 1: Well as.

836
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 2: Staff we first had witnessed and observed fraud, happening yet

837
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,760
Speaker 2: we were shut, down, reassigned told to keep. Quiet sometimes more,

838
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 2: so those are really serious, charges which to me need

839
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:13,840
Speaker 2: to be.

840
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:16,400
Speaker 1: Investigated and, again follow the story.

841
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 2: If they're if they're not, legit let's get to them

842
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 2: and see where they break.

843
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 1: Down but what did you make of? That and are

844
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 1: you concerned about what was? Offered then, well if, true

845
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:33,240
Speaker 1: it's deeply. Concerning if it's not, true then it's another side.

846
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,279
Speaker 1: Show AND i don't know who wrote. IT i don't

847
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 1: know who they.

848
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 4: Are they did not come to us WHEN i was

849
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 4: A us, attorney AND i DON'T i, MEAN i read

850
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 4: that multiple.

851
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:47,319
Speaker 3: TIMES i.

852
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 4: DON'T i have no way of knowing if one person wrote,

853
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,400
Speaker 4: it a committee wrote, it whether they're one hundreds or,

854
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 4: two whether they're, here whether they're In.

855
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:59,320
Speaker 3: RUSSIA i just don't. Know and if.

856
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:03,920
Speaker 4: People were real harmed by this kind of, conduct then come,

857
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:10,919
Speaker 4: forward get, protection and get your rights. Addressed but not never.

858
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 4: CAME i was doing this for three. YEARS i never

859
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:17,439
Speaker 4: heard that word of. That, again doesn't mean it didn't,

860
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 4: happen doesn't mean they had an obligation to come to.

861
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 4: ME i don't think they've come to THE Us attorney's

862
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:25,799
Speaker 4: office SINCE i. Left if they, have, okay and that's

863
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:29,920
Speaker 4: the only WAY i can address. It but without somebody

864
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:32,920
Speaker 4: saying it happened to, me and here the. Specifics these

865
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 4: are very general. ALLEGATIONS i don't know where you go with.

866
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:39,479
Speaker 4: It so how do you investigate? It maybe they'll come

867
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 4: forward to, somebody but other than just putting it out there,

868
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 4: ANONYMOUSLY i don't know what you'd do with.

869
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 1: IT i wish we had more.

870
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 2: Time another good conversation today will say we keep saying

871
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:52,960
Speaker 2: this because we always run out of. Time we have

872
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 2: to get your Best Joe friedberg story next, time maybe

873
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 2: one of your best Round rosenbaum stories as, well BECAUSE

874
00:43:58,960 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 2: i think you got a.

875
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:00,120
Speaker 1: COUPLE i.

876
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 3: DO i have two stories about each of. These ease

877
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 3: of them. ALL i.

878
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:03,719
Speaker 1: See that's.

879
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:05,360
Speaker 2: It, well then maybe one of these times that's we

880
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:06,880
Speaker 2: just we will we will ignore the.

881
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 1: Headlines it's hard to.

882
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 4: Do you read me all these quotes of these, headlines

883
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 4: AND i got off the. Cuff i've got to respond to.

884
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:14,200
Speaker 4: That six five one guy, Says i'm holding.

885
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 3: Back that's.

886
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 2: It that's, it it's it's it's maybe six five one.

887
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 2: Guy i'll contact you. Directly, no that's okay. Too i'm

888
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 2: in the. Book, yeah that's. It, thanks thanks for. Coming

889
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:24,279
Speaker 2: always a, pleasure and we'll talk.

890
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:25,040
Speaker 3: Soon appreciate.

891
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:27,560
Speaker 2: It FORMER Us Attorney Andy luger kind enough to join

892
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:29,839
Speaker 2: us in studio for a terrific. Hour we'll come back

893
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,320
Speaker 2: and talk. Hockey AS i, said you're red Hot. Minnesota

894
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:35,360
Speaker 2: while back in action, Tonight russo is not, there but

895
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 2: he still has a lot to say about your favorite

896
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:38,000
Speaker 2: club that's now