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Speaker 1: The Ryan Gorman Show podcast presented by Farah and Farah

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Speaker 1: Accident Attorney's Tampa. So, yesterday, Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg took

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Speaker 1: the stand in a landmark social media addiction trial, and

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Speaker 1: to talk more about this, we're joined by ABC News

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Speaker 1: Tech correspondent Mike Debuski, and in a bit we'll check

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Speaker 1: him with the ABC News legal analyst Royal Oaks. Mike,

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Speaker 1: thanks so much for coming on the show this morning,

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Speaker 1: and let's start with an overview of what this case

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Speaker 1: is all about.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so, this all starts with a twenty year old

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Speaker 2: woman who's identified in core documents as Kaylee and her mother.

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Speaker 2: They sued a number of social media platforms recently, alleging

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Speaker 2: that the very design of these platforms are addictive and

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Speaker 2: thereby harmful two younger users. The allegation here is that

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Speaker 2: at the age of six, Kaylee became addicted to platforms

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Speaker 2: like Instagram, Facebook, Snapchat, tic Tech and others, and that

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Speaker 2: resulted in negative health outcomes things like depression, anxiety, body

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Speaker 2: dysmorphia as a result of the again design of these

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Speaker 2: platforms certain features that were baked into them, things like

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Speaker 2: auto scroll, where you can set certain apps to scroll

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Speaker 2: for you, basically eliminating friction or you know, notifications sent

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Speaker 2: late at night, which can you know, disrupt your sleep

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Speaker 2: and disrupt you know, other health outcomes and that sort

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Speaker 2: of thing. So that's the allegation that's being leveled in

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Speaker 2: a California court room right now. We heard from Mark

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Speaker 2: Zuckerberg yesterday, we heard from the head of Instagram before that.

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Speaker 2: What's interesting here is that this is a Bellweather trial.

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Speaker 2: This is something that could potentially set the precedent for

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Speaker 2: future trials that are set to go to court later

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Speaker 2: this year. Basically, what the state of California has done

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Speaker 2: is they've grouped about fifteen hundred broadly similar cases together

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Speaker 2: and they're telling Jerry's hey, look at the testimony that's

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Speaker 2: happening right now, look at the evidence that's presented right now,

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Speaker 2: and use it to inform your decision making down the line.

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Speaker 2: So you have something to work off of, meaning that

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Speaker 2: whatever gets set in courtroom over the next few weeks

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Speaker 2: could potentially have very big ramifications.

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Speaker 1: Of all the testimony that we've heard up to this point,

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Speaker 1: what has stood out to you the most so far?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think what's really interesting to note here is

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Speaker 2: the delineation between what is happening and what constitutes actual addiction.

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Speaker 2: And that's something that we heard from Adam Issari last

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Speaker 2: week again, head of Instagram, and he said, yes, Instagram

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Speaker 2: and Facebook, their sister company, play a role in the

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Speaker 2: teen mental health crisis, but it's not the only role,

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Speaker 2: right that. That crisis is a very complex puzzle, and

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Speaker 2: yes social media is part of that puzzle. These companies

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Speaker 2: are doing things to address their role in it. But

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Speaker 2: the clear line between you know, teen mental health and

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Speaker 2: immediately going to social media is not as clear as

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Speaker 2: is being laid out by the plaintiffs. That's the argument

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Speaker 2: that we're hearing from a lot of these companies. So

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Speaker 2: that's something to note. Yesterday from Mark Zuckerberg, we saw

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Speaker 2: a lot of back and forth over what the company

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Speaker 2: knew about, you know, their role in the team mental

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Speaker 2: health crisis, whether there was any you know, information that

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Speaker 2: was circulating at Facebook and Instagram related to their impact

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Speaker 2: on younger users, and indeed whether they targeted younger users,

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Speaker 2: with a lot of questioning of Mark Zuckerberg, you know,

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Speaker 2: related to emails that were sent in to his company

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Speaker 2: that he was c seed on that he must have

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Speaker 2: seen at some point or another, including one that says,

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Speaker 2: if we want to be win big with teens, we

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Speaker 2: must bring them in as tweens, which is a pretty

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Speaker 2: eye opening statement to be made there. You know certain

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Speaker 2: you know, features that were designed specifically for kids as well,

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Speaker 2: beauty filters and other things which could potentially contribute to

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Speaker 2: body dysmorphia, the difference between what your body looks like

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Speaker 2: and what you think your body should look like. Those

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Speaker 2: all playing a big role at trial.

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Speaker 3: Here.

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Speaker 1: All right, ABC News Tech correspondent Mike Debuski with us.

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Speaker 1: Mike really appreciate it. Thanks so much, of course, fran Taka.

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Speaker 1: All right, now let's bring in ABC News legal analyst Royals,

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Speaker 1: So Royal Mark Zuckerberg on the stand yesterday. What was

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Speaker 1: notable about his testimony?

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Speaker 3: I think the biggest thing about it is that it

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Speaker 3: was a really critical confrontation. It's like the nuclear core

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Speaker 3: of this big social media case where the paint off says,

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Speaker 3: you know you're killing kids, you're addicting them, You didn't

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Speaker 3: care about their health, you just cared about profits. And

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Speaker 3: here is the symbol of meta face, Mark Zuckerberg. He's

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Speaker 3: going up against this legal gladiator who's one of a

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Speaker 3: billion dollars or more many times asbestos pharma. So they

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Speaker 3: picked the right horse here, and so it was tense.

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Speaker 3: It was a confrontation with Zuckerberg trying to defend, Hey,

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Speaker 3: we do the right thing. We've done a lot of

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Speaker 3: work trying to have guardrails and filters, whereas the lawyer

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Speaker 3: is pointing out, well, you know, you allowed four million

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Speaker 3: kids under thirteen to get access to Instagram. So there

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Speaker 3: was some tension in the courtroom.

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Speaker 1: In terms of the legal bar that the plan TIFFs

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Speaker 1: have to reach to show that not only were these

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Speaker 1: social media companies getting kids addicted, but that they meant

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Speaker 1: to do that. How hard is that going to be

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Speaker 1: to reach?

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Speaker 3: Well, it is kind of tough. I mean, this is

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Speaker 3: a civil case, not criminal. So the burden of proof

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Speaker 3: is preponderance of the evidence a little bit more in

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Speaker 3: favor of the plaintiff than the defendant. Plaintiff wins, but

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Speaker 3: that's not the game. The game is punitive damages because again,

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Speaker 3: this gladiator who keeps getting juries to be infuriated, he's

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Speaker 3: not going to be happy unless he gets punishing, punitive

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Speaker 3: damages in hundreds of millions or billions of dollars. Because

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Speaker 3: that sends a message to Congress, you know, you got

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Speaker 3: to change this, stop kids getting access to social media,

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Speaker 3: and it affects how to settle the literally thousands of

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Speaker 3: similar cases all around the country that are looking to

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Speaker 3: this case and a case in New Mexico to figure

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Speaker 3: out what are juries likely to do in this kind

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Speaker 3: of legal fight.

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Speaker 1: So what could we ultimately see what would be the

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Speaker 1: best case scenario for the plaintiffs, the twenty year old

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Speaker 1: California woman who's at the center of this and others,

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Speaker 1: and then what would be the best case scenario for

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Speaker 1: the social media companies in terms of an outcome here.

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Speaker 3: So the best case for plaintiff is, of course first

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Speaker 3: win and secondly to win punitive damages, which will send

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Speaker 3: the message to the world and line the pockets. Of course,

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Speaker 3: the lawyers of plaintiffs and the folks who have sued.

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Speaker 3: The best case for Meta would of course be to win,

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Speaker 3: but it would be to win on the basis that

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Speaker 3: the jury comes out. You know, usually they talk to

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Speaker 3: the press and they say, well, you know, it's terrible

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Speaker 3: that some kids have gotten addicted, but you know, mental

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Speaker 3: illness is very complex. The plaintiff did not prove that

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Speaker 3: it was you know, endless scrolling that caused somebody's body

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Speaker 3: image issues or depression or anxiety or suicidal tendencies. And

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Speaker 3: you know the company really did try hard to offer

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Speaker 3: things to parents and that parents generally didn't take advantage

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Speaker 3: of it, and a lot of people can sort of

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Speaker 3: get it behind that argument and realizing, yeah, it isn't

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Speaker 3: all Meta's fault, all right.

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Speaker 1: ABC News Legal analyst Royal oaks with us this morning.

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Speaker 1: Royal always appreciate timing inside.

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Speaker 3: Thanks so much, you bet. Thanks.

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Speaker 1: Follow the show and give us your hot take on Facebook, Instagram,

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Speaker 1: and acts at Ryan Gorman Show presented by Vera and

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