Speaker 1: Don't be flowny. Here on seven hundred wlw's schools across
Speaker 1: America locking up, snatching up kids cell phones like their
Speaker 1: hot Contra band. So you got bell de Belle bands,
Speaker 1: you got the big mad Night of pousage. You got
Speaker 1: confiscation policies. Ohio, Kentucky, Indiana all requires school districts to
Speaker 1: implement policies banning those phones during instructional class time. And
Speaker 1: each state's so a little bit different than that every
Speaker 1: but largely most states have this conon policy. But here's
Speaker 1: the question.
Speaker 2: You're ready for the question.
Speaker 1: Here's the question no one's asking us. So new studies
Speaker 1: come out, and not just new, but preceding studies have
Speaker 1: come out. The shows teachers spend somewhere between twenty five
Speaker 1: and thirty something percent of their day, so between a
Speaker 1: quarter and a third of their instructional day trying to
Speaker 1: get kids to listen despite strict cell phone bands.
Speaker 2: That hasn't changed.
Speaker 1: So our phones the core problem or is it just
Speaker 1: a scapegoat?
Speaker 2: On that?
Speaker 1: Christine Miles, she's a psychologist and works with school systems
Speaker 1: across the country. Founder of the Listening Past. Christine, welcome,
Speaker 1: how are you?
Speaker 2: I'm great I'm so glad we're talking about this, so
Speaker 2: thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I was thinking about this before a conversation,
Speaker 1: and you know I was not. I don't know about you,
Speaker 1: but I was not part of the cell phone generation. Obviously.
Speaker 1: I had my mobile now and had it for a
Speaker 1: look for twenty thirty years. But I look back and go, wow,
Speaker 1: we didn't have this problem when I was a kid.
Speaker 1: As most parents and grandparents certainly say, things are different.
Speaker 1: Of course they're supposed to be different. That's how the
Speaker 1: world this is, That's how America's designed. I guess this
Speaker 1: would be like what if I in school, if I
Speaker 1: were allowed to bring my TV with a cable on
Speaker 1: it and I could watch MTV. What that would do
Speaker 1: for my ability to learn? It's the same thing, right
Speaker 1: it really.
Speaker 2: That's that's beautifully said. That's exactly what it is. We
Speaker 2: don't need it. We just don't need the cord.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So so, but I so appreciate the question because it
Speaker 2: is a big it is a big, big problem, and
Speaker 2: I'm so glad the school's are fine. We're taking a step.
Speaker 2: I mean, we know better, we do better. I mean,
Speaker 2: I remember I grew up when smoking was allowed in
Speaker 2: most places, but then we realized it was harmful for
Speaker 2: your health, so we took it outside and we made
Speaker 2: smoking areas and things like that. So setting some limits
Speaker 2: is similar to that, because I think this is like
Speaker 2: that the ships sailed before we knew what the repercussions were.
Speaker 2: And I don't think it's the root cause. It's just
Speaker 2: that in gasoline to the already raging fire. In terms
Speaker 2: of the problem of kids struggling to listen, there's also
Speaker 2: some rebound effects here. So you take the phones out
Speaker 2: of the schools, and attention spans are still harder to
Speaker 2: come by because when if they're on their phones and
Speaker 2: on devices, which the numbers are kind of staggering. You know,
Speaker 2: these are spending nine hours plus a day outside of
Speaker 2: school work. That's a lot of time. So it's not
Speaker 2: like your brain's going to recover just because you don't
Speaker 2: have it in school. But again we're still it's still
Speaker 2: not the root cause, in my opinion, is that we're told,
Speaker 2: not taught, and this is a problem since the documents
Speaker 2: since the nineteen fifties.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was making that case and this kind of
Speaker 1: a theme show today on this I had earlier we're
Speaker 1: talking about the social media liability trial. It's about to
Speaker 1: happen that social media and TikTok and snapchat and instant
Speaker 1: all those platforms are addictive by design and will ruin
Speaker 1: your kid's life. Yeah, if they go uncheck, if they're
Speaker 1: completely fear al online with no roadblocks up. But that's
Speaker 1: on the parent. I don't think that's on the company.
Speaker 1: Also made the case that the social is not the problem.
Speaker 1: The phone itself is the problem. It is like literal,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's like bringing it's a handheld Damn
Speaker 1: casino is what it is. Right, It's like I've got
Speaker 1: everything out there. It's not social. It's I can message,
Speaker 1: I can look at videos, i can watch porn, I
Speaker 1: can check sports, I can bet online, I can I
Speaker 1: can do all of these things in the problem in
Speaker 1: my hand. That's really it's not social. It's the phone.
Speaker 2: Well, it's it's all the things that are coming. It's
Speaker 2: the world coming at kids, not the world, you know,
Speaker 2: not kids exploring the world and what's finding them. You know. Again,
Speaker 2: there's could be a lot of debate about algorithms and
Speaker 2: how we're targeting, just because we could have debates our
Speaker 2: cigarette companies targeting the brain and making things addictive. So
Speaker 2: there's there's It's a very complex issue, and I think yes,
Speaker 2: parental control is important. Schools taking these steps is important
Speaker 2: when again, when we know better, we do better, and
Speaker 2: we still need. One of the things taking this time
Speaker 2: away in schools is that it forces us to do
Speaker 2: something else. So you know, I've I've talked with parents
Speaker 2: as you know, a family therapist and one time a
Speaker 2: parents said to me, what if my child won't eat anything,
Speaker 2: drink anything but soda? And I said, well, if you
Speaker 2: take soda away in the house, they'll get thirsty eventually.
Speaker 2: So you know they'll eventually drink water if water is
Speaker 2: all there is. So what will happen is kids will
Speaker 2: start to reacclimate towards socializing with each other more than
Speaker 2: they will to the phones when the phones aren't in
Speaker 2: front of them. But it's two attempting. So we need
Speaker 2: to remove those barriers. But then we also got to
Speaker 2: give them the skills. I mean, we've been telling we've
Speaker 2: been telling people to listen kids starting with kids from
Speaker 2: like I said, this is a problem documented back to
Speaker 2: the nineteen fifties where we don't have formal listening, education
Speaker 2: and classrooms. So we tell them expecting the ears to
Speaker 2: do the work instead of building this as a skill,
Speaker 2: which is what it is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean I saw we should be addressing
Speaker 1: in stool. She's a schools that's Christine Mouse, psychologist. Let's
Speaker 1: back up a little bit. What goes on in the
Speaker 1: adolescent brain from a developmental psychology perspective, what's actually happening
Speaker 1: when their kids are always on their phone and you
Speaker 1: met you know, nine, ten, twelve or more hours a day.
Speaker 2: Well, so I will say that I can talk about
Speaker 2: this from the This is not my core expertise on
Speaker 2: a system's family therapist, but what I do know and
Speaker 2: what the research is, it's just it's a dopamine hit.
Speaker 2: It's a constant dopamine hit. It is. It is asking
Speaker 2: like a drug. Now we can talk about that from
Speaker 2: an adult perspective, and we know how difficult that is.
Speaker 2: You talked about family, you talked about form. These are
Speaker 2: things for adults that they struggle with in terms of
Speaker 2: the time on the phone. When your brains developing, we're
Speaker 2: in a whole different round here, So we were not
Speaker 2: forming the pathways that need to be formed in early
Speaker 2: childhood and in adolescence, which is really why it's so dangerous,
Speaker 2: because we're changing those neual pathways we're getting they're having
Speaker 2: a hard time self soothing, They're having a hard time
Speaker 2: you know. This is why we know the mental health
Speaker 2: issues are spiking, not just the attention issues. This is
Speaker 2: very well documented now in the in the literature.
Speaker 1: Okay, but there's also a separation factor here. I guess,
Speaker 1: for lack of a better word, we're seeing some students
Speaker 1: are you know, they're experiencing genuine anxiety and panic attacks
Speaker 1: when they're separated from their phones during these bands. Is
Speaker 1: that a clinical concern we should take seriously or is
Speaker 1: that a warning for everyone else?
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's a withdrawal issue. I think this
Speaker 2: is exactly you know what, Let's go back to something simple.
Speaker 2: You know, we give kids a pacifier because it helps
Speaker 2: them sue themselves. When when it's time, when the parents go, okay,
Speaker 2: it's time to now wean off of that. There's some
Speaker 2: fears that when we have to say goodbye to something
Speaker 2: that was helping us south just because it helps us
Speaker 2: suit doesn't mean it's good for us. This is not
Speaker 2: how we want we want kids to regulates through a
Speaker 2: device and through having to have constant you know, attention
Speaker 2: coming at us, so that our constant stimulus. So we're
Speaker 2: we're not thinking, feeling, or even operating in the present,
Speaker 2: and that's the danger zone. So this is where but
Speaker 2: we've got to fill that gap so that they're not
Speaker 2: as anxious. Again, this is where the socialization is the answer.
Speaker 2: It's not just take it away. It's the only way
Speaker 2: to stop the behavior to start a new one. So
Speaker 2: you take the phones away, now you have to replace
Speaker 2: it with more socialization. We're skill building around listening, which
Speaker 2: is why again teachers have been telling kids to listen
Speaker 2: in the classrooms for you know, decades, and this is
Speaker 2: a constant battle because it's hard to pay attention for
Speaker 2: eight hours a day, especially if you don't have the skill.
Speaker 2: If I said, you go run a marathon, that you
Speaker 2: know how to run, but get into the get to
Speaker 2: the end of the race, you got to train, you
Speaker 2: gotta build the muscle. And so this is our opportunity
Speaker 2: is to finally solve this problem, which is what I'm
Speaker 2: committed to doing, is to is to provide education from
Speaker 2: elementary classrooms to corporations because it doesn't matter what age
Speaker 2: you are. You only, you know, a very small percentage,
Speaker 2: less than two percent have any formal listening trading.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she is Christine Miles. She's a psychologist of what
Speaker 1: it's cost to you not to listen to the founder
Speaker 1: of the listening path or talking about school cell phone
Speaker 1: and then we have that in Ohio, Kentucky, Indiana to
Speaker 1: a large degree. But the question nobody's asking that I'm
Speaker 1: bringing in this morning is their studies are coming out
Speaker 1: and they're showing that teachers still spend a corner or
Speaker 1: more of their workday, of their instruction day, just trying
Speaker 1: to get kids to listen. Then that was before and
Speaker 1: now after cell phone bands. So our cell phone is
Speaker 1: really the problem. They really wreck kids lives. I've also
Speaker 1: seen studies that pointed out earlier said that, you know,
Speaker 1: the extreme is if you spend all your time on
Speaker 1: the phone, it's really really bad for you. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's horrible for your development, all these things we're talking about.
Speaker 1: That's absolutely true. But kids who do aren't on social
Speaker 1: or don't have phones, who don't use them aren't allowed
Speaker 1: to tend to also suffer some of those same symptoms.
Speaker 1: Maybe not the extreme we're talking about with over usage,
Speaker 1: but under usage. There's a sweet spot right in the middle.
Speaker 1: And when I hear that, I go, Okay, kids if
Speaker 1: they're exposed a little social media and able to congregate
Speaker 1: online with friends, because that's how kids socialized today. I
Speaker 1: was a kid where we'd socialized at the mall or
Speaker 1: the arcade, and kids today do it digitally. So we
Speaker 1: have to lean into that. Is this just a lesson
Speaker 1: that we are woefully behind how we educate kids in
Speaker 1: America still today because we're teaching them like we did
Speaker 1: a couple hundred years ago. There's a you know, maybe
Speaker 1: it's instead of a blackboard, it's a whiteboard or a smartboard,
Speaker 1: but you're still at rote memorization. It's all these things
Speaker 1: we've taught kids largely the same way. If phones and
Speaker 1: social media, Christine are changing kids' brains, shouldn't we be
Speaker 1: adopting the school curricula to meet the way kids learn
Speaker 1: now as opposed to how they did a couple hundred
Speaker 1: years ago.
Speaker 2: Well, you're this is such a good point. I mean,
Speaker 2: we we know that just what we know about the
Speaker 2: neurodivergency and the way kids learn that. Look, we're you
Speaker 2: know you and I could go back and say, well,
Speaker 2: you know, if somebody was this lessacker, had genuinely had
Speaker 2: a d D or things like that, this wasn't necessarily
Speaker 2: talked about or diagnosed to the same degree. We once
Speaker 2: could argue that, you know, not everybody has add that,
Speaker 2: but it is real. It is a real thing. So
Speaker 2: we just know that teachers have a lot of divergent
Speaker 2: learning needs and so it's really about meeting kids where
Speaker 2: they are, which is part of why the listening is
Speaker 2: hard too, because kids needs are different. Yes, which is
Speaker 2: why this is a this you're the point you're making
Speaker 2: is I think, which is where my heart and soul
Speaker 2: is is this is a systemic problem. We're not going
Speaker 2: to fix this with one thing. Again, we know that
Speaker 2: phones that what we're trying to prevent is is keeping
Speaker 2: them off of engaging with each other, engaging with the future,
Speaker 2: and engaging with the with the core curriculum. Like you said,
Speaker 2: take the TV out of the classroom, that's just common sense.
Speaker 2: Right then, we have the issue of what we do
Speaker 2: at home and how we limit time. We know that
Speaker 2: past the screen time, the scrolling, the doom scrolling, that's
Speaker 2: not super productive, and that can get that's very addictive. Well,
Speaker 2: you know, then there's some socialization. How can you mitigate
Speaker 2: that with socialization? And then you get to the But
Speaker 2: you take all that and you cure all that, you
Speaker 2: still have this learning problem and you still have this
Speaker 2: listening problem to systemic communication problem. We focus on speaking, telling, knowing,
Speaker 2: and test scores versus how we're learning. And that's what AI,
Speaker 2: in my opinion, is going to come in and change.
Speaker 2: You know, we had the calculator. Now we have something
Speaker 2: that could do the formulators, but that formulas, But how
Speaker 2: can you explain it? How can you make sense out
Speaker 2: of it? How can you show up as a person
Speaker 2: that knows how to collaborate? And these are all the
Speaker 2: skills that are at the core of what's going to
Speaker 2: make somebody successful in the future. Starting we got to
Speaker 2: start teaching that at a very early age, as early
Speaker 2: as first grade, so that they're ready. And this is
Speaker 2: where we have to fix this systemically, so that we're
Speaker 2: teaching the skills so everybody is a common language. Is
Speaker 2: how you listen so they can understand.
Speaker 1: So there's another factor here in my mind that this
Speaker 1: whole thing and I get it, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: talk about phones descrying attention spans, and the argument is
Speaker 1: whether the phone is the cause or just the most
Speaker 1: convenient delivery system for a culture that's already dopamine driven
Speaker 1: and overstimulate. I mean, you know, parents are were upset
Speaker 1: with the cell phone bands because they want to be
Speaker 1: able to get a hold of their kid instantly at
Speaker 1: any time during an emergency. But as an excuse to go,
Speaker 1: I can text you during class because parents are also
Speaker 1: anxious all the time. Well, and it trickles down that
Speaker 1: we're all anxiously all the time. But I think it's interesting,
Speaker 1: is that. So the way to beat this whole thing
Speaker 1: is to simply use AI and use the algorithms for
Speaker 1: good as opposed to evil. If you want to call
Speaker 1: social media evil, and that is educators and the system
Speaker 1: should be creating platforms much like TikTok and snapchat and
Speaker 1: install that feed that that feeds a student a steady
Speaker 1: diet of what they're interested in to learn that continues
Speaker 1: to push stuff towards them and challenge them and learn
Speaker 1: what their likes and dislikes are and try and strengthen
Speaker 1: those dislikes and make everything better. Use use the technology
Speaker 1: for good instead of social media. But the problem with
Speaker 1: that is now you're going to replace all of these
Speaker 1: teachers and all these administrators in the schools with something
Speaker 1: that's digital. That means now that threatens the teachers unions,
Speaker 1: that threatens the administrators and the whole construct of schools
Speaker 1: in general, because guess what if I can do this
Speaker 1: with my phone, much like we've seen you know, broadcast TV,
Speaker 1: go away radio, everything else, newspaper press for example. Because
Speaker 1: of the digital age, that now threatens the livelihood of
Speaker 1: the education class. And we can't have that in America.
Speaker 1: And so what winds up happening is this distonect between
Speaker 1: the kids in the classroom. Am I wrong?
Speaker 2: Well, here's what I think. I so, you know, I yes. Again,
Speaker 2: the it's just like we could be saying the same
Speaker 2: thing about corporate America, the road. The road things can
Speaker 2: be replaced, well, can't be replaced by the human skills.
Speaker 2: And that's one of the things that I think teachers
Speaker 2: are getting away from, and not by the doing because
Speaker 2: there's so much pressure to teach to these core ideas
Speaker 2: and curriculum and the standards, is that they're getting away
Speaker 2: from the human part of the job, which is really
Speaker 2: how we develop kids, how we nurture kids, and so
Speaker 2: this is going to be the heart of what happens
Speaker 2: in the school and what teachers love to do and
Speaker 2: why most teachers get into the work. So I think
Speaker 2: it's not that they'll be replaced as to what the
Speaker 2: emphasis is that needs to change. And that's the same
Speaker 2: thing that I see on the corporate side that if
Speaker 2: you want to you have to drive that value as
Speaker 2: a what in your job because some of the redundancies
Speaker 2: can be replaced. And so the answer isn't more time
Speaker 2: on screen. The answer is more connection in terms of
Speaker 2: how we raise the kids and how we teach them
Speaker 2: and how we help them connect through language and through interaction,
Speaker 2: so that everything they learn in this kind of this
Speaker 2: fast paced digital world and what's coming at them, they
Speaker 2: can manage their emotions, They can manage the emotions of others,
Speaker 2: they can develop empathy. They have the things that the
Speaker 2: AI and the machines don't have. And that's the risk
Speaker 2: is that we're tipping over into too much of the
Speaker 2: screen time.
Speaker 1: Right. She is Christine Miles psychologist. Her book is What
Speaker 1: Is Costing You Not to Listen? Founder of the Listening Past,
Speaker 1: Christine miles. Thanks of the time.
Speaker 2: I appreciate it, appreciate the conversation. It's really really helpful.
Speaker 1: I think I just made the case here teachers can
Speaker 1: be replaced. This is not believe me, this is like,
Speaker 1: this is dangerous territory. If you could come up with
Speaker 1: an algorithm, and it's easy to do because we've seen
Speaker 1: this replicated Tom and Tom again, that would teach kids
Speaker 1: on their level, meaning it feeds them a steady die.
Speaker 1: The algorithm feeds them a steady die of things they're
Speaker 1: interested in and expands their knowledge base in learning and
Speaker 1: kind of sort of tricks them into learning where it
Speaker 1: becomes fun and engaging on a personal level, just like
Speaker 1: social media is. And now they're hooked on this, and
Speaker 1: you put that in the classroom and ban the phone
Speaker 1: and give them a device that is the alternate to
Speaker 1: social media and all the stuff coming at you. And
Speaker 1: that's how kids learn today. They learn on social media,
Speaker 1: they learn through digital interaction. If you do that in
Speaker 1: the classroom, kids now become smarter, more engaged, more learned.
Speaker 1: But what happens to the educational system the computer replaces
Speaker 1: the teacher. Can't have that in America?
Speaker 2: Can we?
Speaker 1: Because of what's at stake? There's also the is she
Speaker 1: mentioned important too? The social interaction thing? But is this
Speaker 1: like the it's like clickbait right, This is what the
Speaker 1: educational system doesn't want you to know, This one weird
Speaker 1: old trick for saving us a lot of money and
Speaker 1: getting a better student Thoughts afternoons here Scontzerland continues on
Speaker 1: seven hundred ww