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Speaker 1: ZESPN fifteen thirty, Al Golden and Dan Pitcher have spoken

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Speaker 1: in Indie. You'll hear from both in fifteen minutes. The

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Speaker 1: Combine is happening in Indianapolis.

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Speaker 2: We're gonna go there now.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: We love the folks at Sumer sportssumer sports dot com.

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Speaker 2: Our guys.

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Speaker 1: Sean Saya joins us every year during the season. Joined

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Speaker 1: us a couple of weeks ago. Lindsay Rhodes from U

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Speaker 1: suomer Sports is with us. She is at the Combine

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Speaker 1: and during what I'm sure is an extraordinarily busy few

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Speaker 1: days for her kind enough to join us. Lindsay, It's

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Speaker 1: awesome to have you.

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Speaker 2: How are you?

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much. I'm happy to be with you.

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Speaker 3: I'm having a great day.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure. I'm sure. I want you to touch on

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Speaker 1: this first. So, for years people have watched the Combine,

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Speaker 1: and I don't want to say I have made fun

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Speaker 1: of it, but express skepticism as to whether or not

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Speaker 1: what we're watching in terms of the three cone drill

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Speaker 1: and the forty yard dash and all the different exercises

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Speaker 1: we watch. For years people have wondered, like, how much

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Speaker 1: does any of that really translate into success? At the

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Speaker 1: National Football League level from your guys vantage point, which

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Speaker 1: is deeply analytical and really really smart. What should we

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Speaker 1: do with combined results when we start to figure out

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Speaker 1: what some of these guys are going to do at

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Speaker 1: the next level.

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Speaker 3: Probably not much, to be honest with you, which isn't

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Speaker 3: to say that it is not valuable and that teams

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Speaker 3: don't need the information, and I'll get back to why

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Speaker 3: they still do need the information, but I do think

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Speaker 3: that we've looked into different position drills and their correlation

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Speaker 3: numbers to success in the NFL in their first three years,

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Speaker 3: which we look at three years because that's when you

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Speaker 3: have to make a decision about whether or not to

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Speaker 3: you know, give them a second contract, and also correlation

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Speaker 3: numbers between like the position drill like a forty time

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Speaker 3: for instance, result and then draft position. And we found

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Speaker 3: that the correlation numbers pretty much across the board for

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Speaker 3: a bunch of different positions and pretty much every single

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Speaker 3: drill that you could do or like the measurable parts

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Speaker 3: of the combine are really minimal. And we actually my colleague,

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Speaker 3: my colleague Sam Bruckhouse just posted an article. It's up

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Speaker 3: on the suomer Sports website right now that is about

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Speaker 3: NFL combine by position, how do these positions predict ANFL success?

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Speaker 3: And he goes through all of the different correlation metrics,

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Speaker 3: but essentially you're looking at like best case scenario, you

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Speaker 3: have a correlation of like twenty percent, thirty percent. That's low, right.

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Speaker 3: So I think the reason that it still has value

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Speaker 3: to the teams, however, is because although they're using a

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Speaker 3: lot of tracking data, and certainly film is king and

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Speaker 3: so whatever they've put on tape is the primary evaluation.

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Speaker 3: And then the tracking data and we have the ability

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Speaker 3: at Zoomer Sports with a model that we built to

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Speaker 3: evaluate to even kind of put numbers next to certain

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Speaker 3: trait evaluations and so you can measure them in so

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Speaker 3: many different ways now using the data that we're gathering

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Speaker 3: from what they're actually doing on the field and games.

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Speaker 3: I think that's second, and then I think that the

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Speaker 3: combine is valuable because the teams like to have historical

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Speaker 3: data that they can comp to all of the past

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Speaker 3: people at that position. So for instance, a wide receiver

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Speaker 3: who runs a forty now and also you know, does

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Speaker 3: the vert or whatever. They're collecting a series of numbers

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Speaker 3: and then they can put it into their database and

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Speaker 3: they can compare it to all wide receivers like in

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Speaker 3: nineteen ninety three and in two thousand and four, and

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Speaker 3: so since we didn't have all of these tracking data

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Speaker 3: metrics back then, that's the easy comp to just compare

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Speaker 3: them numerically to a whole historical database, and so it

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Speaker 3: has value to them in that way. I think it's

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Speaker 3: super fun to watch. But aside from maybe like the drills,

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Speaker 3: like in terms of like you know, quarterbacks out they're

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Speaker 3: throwing the ball, or like doing the on field drills part,

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Speaker 3: I would say that's probably the most valuable thing. The

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Speaker 3: forties are fun, but I wouldn't get bent out of

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Speaker 3: shape if a guy doesn't run fast, and I would

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Speaker 3: get too excited if the guy runs real fast.

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Speaker 1: So I ask you this for because I want to.

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Speaker 1: I want to follow it up with two different questions.

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Speaker 1: One is about a guy that the Bengals I'm sure

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Speaker 1: would be interested if he's there, and that's Ruben Bain,

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Speaker 1: because I could watch the tape and tell you, man,

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Speaker 1: that guy, that guy's a load, that guy's going to

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Speaker 1: be tough to block, that guy can make an immediate impact.

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Speaker 1: But all I'm going to hear this week is how

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Speaker 1: short his arms are? So what should I do with that?

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Speaker 3: I would also advise you to do nothing with that?

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Speaker 3: And I mean I know, right like what a call

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Speaker 3: you guys this week means nothing? Have fun watching. I

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Speaker 3: think that the arm length thing is. I mean, they're

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Speaker 3: definitely scouts and general manager who probably disagree with me

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Speaker 3: and say that there are definitely there are, like, it

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Speaker 3: doesn't matter unless you go below this threshold. But what

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Speaker 3: I would argue is that Ruby Bain had whatever his

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Speaker 3: arms measure, that's what they measured last year when he

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Speaker 3: was doing what he did at Miami, and that's what

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Speaker 3: they measured the year before and the year before that,

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Speaker 3: and so he has clearly figured out a way to

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Speaker 3: compensate for whatever size he doesn't have in his arm length.

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Speaker 3: Same story with Will Campbell. And by the way, we

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Speaker 3: had this exact same conversation about Will Campbell last year.

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Speaker 3: And look where he went in the draft and look

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Speaker 3: at how he I mean, he didn't have a great

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Speaker 3: Super Bowl, that's a different story. Went up against a

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Speaker 3: very very good defense, but he had a great first

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Speaker 3: season in the league. Like he's clearly like the hit

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Speaker 3: on the pick, So I think that a lot of

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Speaker 3: this is noise more than anything. And I think where

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Speaker 3: it really becomes, where it really maybe factors into a

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Speaker 3: team's decision making process, is if there is a tie

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Speaker 3: or if you have a bunch of players bucketed on

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Speaker 3: the same tier and you just need a tiebreaker, and

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Speaker 3: you say, look, these guys are even we love them both.

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Speaker 3: We think both of them have the same chance, and

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Speaker 3: maybe this is a flight negative like that could impede

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Speaker 3: his path. It provides one less path to success. So

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Speaker 3: we're going to go any other directions. But I wouldn't like, oh, shoot,

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Speaker 3: his arms measured at whatever, and so we're going to

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Speaker 3: drop him tinpots like that just doesn't make any sense.

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Speaker 1: So the Bengals last year Lindsay Rose is with us

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Speaker 1: from a sumersports dot com. The Bengals last year took

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Speaker 1: a guy in Shamar Stewart, and it kind of put

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Speaker 1: them at the epicenter of the trades versus production debate

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Speaker 1: where Shamar Stuart, you know, he had a lot of disruptions,

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Speaker 1: but he rarely finished plays. One and a half sacks

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Speaker 1: his final season in college, four and a half across

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Speaker 1: his three years. But it was, hey, we love the traits.

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Speaker 1: We love the physical specimen that he is. Here's how

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Speaker 1: he stacks up against guys who are in the NFL. So,

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Speaker 1: based on everything you outlined for me, based on what

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Speaker 1: we know about Shamar Stewart, and you know his rookie

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Speaker 1: season was impacted by injury, nobody's giving up on him.

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Speaker 1: But I think a lot of folks here have been like,

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Speaker 1: you know what, forget the traits, show me what the

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Speaker 1: guy does on film, Show me what the guy does

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Speaker 1: when he's playing football. Based on what you know about

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Speaker 1: the Cincinnati Bengals, how should they deviate from sort of,

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Speaker 1: you know, taking the trades over what the guy actually

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Speaker 1: puts on film.

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Speaker 3: I think that there needs to be a mix of both,

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Speaker 3: and I think I think the film is first. And

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Speaker 3: by the way, the I mean you can say with

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Speaker 3: Shamar Stewart there was a lack of production numbers, but

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Speaker 3: only really when it led to SAX specifically, right, And

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Speaker 3: so there's another layer to this conversation, which is pressures

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Speaker 3: versus SAX. And so we talked so much about his

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Speaker 3: inability to finish the play on SAX, but how many

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Speaker 3: pressures did he have? Did we just skip that whole part?

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Speaker 3: Of the conversation is he still somehow impacting a play

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Speaker 3: even though he's not ending it, because there is an

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Speaker 3: EPA loss for the offense even when there is a pressure.

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Speaker 3: And so obviously a sack is the ideal outcome for

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Speaker 3: a defense because the play is dead and you have

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Speaker 3: lost yardage. And we have a very specific tangible number

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Speaker 3: that we can look at that measured success. But if

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Speaker 3: there's pressure, I looked up the state, and I don't

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Speaker 3: have it off the top of my head. It's like

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Speaker 3: an eighty three percent drop in expected EPA per play

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Speaker 3: if you have a clean pocket versus a pocket that

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Speaker 3: has pressure associated with it. So over the course of

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Speaker 3: a year, add up the number of pressures that you're

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Speaker 3: adding to the mix, and maybe that results in a throwaway,

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Speaker 3: Maybe that results in a poor throw. Maybe that results

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Speaker 3: in a poor throw that is intercepted. Like, there just

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Speaker 3: isn't as clean a way to measure the outcome there.

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Speaker 3: But if I tell you that there's an eighty three

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Speaker 3: percent loss in expected points out an efficiency on those plays,

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Speaker 3: then there's a more tangible way to look at the

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Speaker 3: pressure as having been impactful. Also, So I think there's

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Speaker 3: a lot of different ways to look at this, I

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Speaker 3: do think that if you are if the conversation is

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Speaker 3: he didn't produce in college, meaning he wasn't good in college,

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Speaker 3: But man, look at how fast he is and look

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Speaker 3: at how big he is, and like that's that's a

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Speaker 3: dumb way to evaluate somebody. Then you can't get over

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Speaker 3: sold on somebody who's trade cy in that sense. The

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Speaker 3: production in terms of you were a good college player

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Speaker 3: that impacted plays in a lot of ways, that has

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Speaker 3: to be there. What does that production look like in

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Speaker 3: terms of a number, that's a different conversation.

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Speaker 1: Why did they make offensive lineman run the forty yard dash?

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Speaker 3: I'm so glad you asked that because we just had

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Speaker 3: did you like my like gas put there a yes? Okay, so,

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Speaker 3: And I'm so glad you asked that today because yesterday

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Speaker 3: I had a different answer. We talked to Sam Schwartzein

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Speaker 3: today on the Sumer Sports Show for an episode that

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Speaker 3: hasn't even posted yet, so sneak pray view. He used

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Speaker 3: to be an offensive lineman at Stanford and is the

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Speaker 3: guy who created the kickoff rules this year for the

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Speaker 3: NFL and does the Amazon Prime Vision games. So he's

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Speaker 3: like a data nerd but also a football player who

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Speaker 3: played offensive line. He said, And I think it's the

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Speaker 3: perfect framing for this, that the forty are dash is

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Speaker 3: a fitness test for offensive linemen. And now think about it,

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Speaker 3: what you're actually looking for in like a tackle for instance,

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Speaker 3: you selize this is a physical specimen that is a unicorn.

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Speaker 3: You cannot find people who are that tall and that

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Speaker 3: size from a weight standpoint, and also that athletic, Like

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Speaker 3: it is hard to find people who have all of

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Speaker 3: that skill set in there to play offensive line, and

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Speaker 3: all of those things are necessary, especially to tackle. So

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Speaker 3: now you're on a forty how in shape are you?

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Speaker 3: And now the forty are dash it's not really about

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Speaker 3: the time, but it is about are you athletic and

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Speaker 3: physically fit enough to fit within a certain percentage parameter

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Speaker 3: against your peers, or are you big and your your

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Speaker 3: gas running forty yard or you're slow, like maybe that

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Speaker 3: will lead to having ankle problems or injury issues because

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Speaker 3: your body just can't hold up under the the conditions

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Speaker 3: that it needs to within the course of the season.

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Speaker 3: And when he said that, I was like, I'm never

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Speaker 3: going to look at that like all the same way,

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Speaker 3: Like I think I think that's such a smart way

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Speaker 3: to look at it, Like it's not about the number,

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Speaker 3: it's literally are you athletic enough to do this well?

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Speaker 3: And that's so important for those positions in ways that

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Speaker 3: I think are under discussed.

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Speaker 1: So the offensive lineman should run the forty. But here

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Speaker 1: would be my recommendation because we had Andre Smith here

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Speaker 1: seventeen years ago and he ran it without his shirt.

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Speaker 2: That was a mistake, So just have something on.

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Speaker 3: I wouldn't nash no, no, Although isn't it funny like

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Speaker 3: if I was on the line, how many years ago

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Speaker 3: did you say that was?

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Speaker 2: That was two thousand and nine, seventeen years ago?

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Speaker 3: Oh God, isn't that wild that many years ago? Anyway,

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Speaker 3: I feel like body changes in the trenches, like they

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Speaker 3: just look different now for the most part. Like remember

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Speaker 3: like the Vince Wilforks of the world of either defensive tackles,

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Speaker 3: and like those bodies don't exist anymore. They exist at guard, right,

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Speaker 3: I mean, like you always have that guard that pops

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Speaker 3: up that's from a small school like North Dakota State.

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Speaker 3: It's always North Dakota State, like Sacramento State or something

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Speaker 3: like that, and they are they're always wearing a cutoff

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Speaker 3: at the senior Bowl, and they always have long hair

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Speaker 3: and maybe maybe like dental works that they need. Like

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Speaker 3: it's such a specific snapshot of the guards and sometimes centers,

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Speaker 3: but the people that come out of nowhere at this

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Speaker 3: time of year and feel like the stars. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: I feel like for the most part, you look at

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Speaker 3: an edge and they have to be so lean and

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Speaker 3: so athletic and even defensive tackles and then certainly offensive tackles.

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Speaker 3: Like you just there's such a degree of athleticism and.

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Speaker 4: Speed kind of and not like long speed, not the

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Speaker 4: forty speed, but just like the ability to kind of

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Speaker 4: move quickly and react fast that is so necessary in

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Speaker 4: today's game.

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Speaker 3: I've found it very fascinating how the bodies have just changed.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting, you know, tackles now look like tight ends

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Speaker 1: used to and tight ends now look like wide receivers.

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Speaker 1: It's you've seen that sort of ripple effect, you know,

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Speaker 1: as you go from inside to out in the sport.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and some of these tight ends are wide receivers. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: which is another layer of like how I feel like

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Speaker 3: we're especially now you're starting to see a lot of

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Speaker 3: the heavy tight end personnel groupings that we talked about

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Speaker 3: this year with the Seahawks running a ton of twelve

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Speaker 3: and the Rams running a ton of thirteen. Personnel For

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Speaker 3: people who aren't familiar with those numbers means the first

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Speaker 3: number in the number twelve, it's the one refers to

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Speaker 3: how many running backs are on the field. The second

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Speaker 3: number the two in twelve, or first how many tight

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Speaker 3: ends are on the field, and then the leftovers is

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Speaker 3: how many wide receivers are on the field. But so

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Speaker 3: many heavy tight end packages that we saw this year

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Speaker 3: on really good offenses, and I kind of wonder if

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Speaker 3: that's not a trend of something that people copy moving forward.

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Speaker 3: Did we talk all the time about it being a

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Speaker 3: coffeecat league, But because the goal of that is to

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Speaker 3: get your defense in base, because base is not base anymore,

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Speaker 3: Like everybody wants to put all of these cornerbacks on

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Speaker 3: the field, and Nickel now is essentially five dbs is

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Speaker 3: the defense that defenses are running out most frequently, So

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Speaker 3: you want to get them out of that so that

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Speaker 3: you can throw on them more efficiently, because throwing is

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Speaker 3: a better way to move the ball downfield easily or

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Speaker 3: quickly efficiently than running the ball. So you'll run the

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Speaker 3: ball a lot, and you'll put tight ends on the

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Speaker 3: field to make it look like you're going to run

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Speaker 3: the ball a lot so that you can get the

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Speaker 3: look that you want in the passing game. But because

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Speaker 3: you're doing that, you're putting more tighten. Now you need

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Speaker 3: more tight ends on your roster. And I wonder if

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Speaker 3: we're going to start seeing teams start to just gobble

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Speaker 3: up tight ends. And as you do that, then you

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Speaker 3: can have like one guy who's more of a blocking

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Speaker 3: tight end, but you can metabolize that a little bit

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Speaker 3: and take a tight end like Aroanda Gadsden from the Chargers.

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Speaker 3: Remember he kind of had like a few weeks there

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Speaker 3: where he popped early in the season and he was

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Speaker 3: a converted wide receiver literally and and kind of came

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Speaker 3: out of nowhere and was a great pass catching option

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Speaker 3: for a little while. I wonder if more teams aren't

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Speaker 3: going to start doing that. And as they start doing

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Speaker 3: that and making the tight end the number one target

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Speaker 3: in the offense, like a train McBride is in Arizona,

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Speaker 3: you know, at some point we've got to start talking

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Speaker 3: about paying them more money.

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Speaker 1: This is, uh, this is really high end and I'm

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Speaker 1: glad you're here. I have one more No, it is

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Speaker 1: this is.

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Speaker 3: Good saying nerdy, which I also think.

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Speaker 1: No, this is the No, this is good, this is

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Speaker 1: the but because I say that, because I got to

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Speaker 1: bring up one more thing, and you've been generous with

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Speaker 1: your time, do you mind this is.

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Speaker 2: Maybe not quite as high end. I'm good. I'm going

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Speaker 2: to give you a little backstory here. Are you ready?

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Speaker 1: I follow you on on Twitter or we still call

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Speaker 1: it Twitter x whatever. And on Monday night, I am

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Speaker 1: laying in a hotel room in Lubbock, Texas.

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Speaker 2: And in the hotel room there are two beds.

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Speaker 1: This is like a little bit after a little bit

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Speaker 1: after midnight, Texas time had gone to heck, it was

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Speaker 1: there for a college basketball game. And I go get

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Speaker 1: dinner and I go get a nightcap. I'm laying in bed.

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Speaker 1: I'm scrolling and I see a post from you and

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Speaker 1: it reads and I'll read it verbatim, hotel, two beds,

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Speaker 1: it's just you. Are you taking the bed closest to

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Speaker 1: the door or the window? And I was gonna chime in.

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Speaker 1: Then I thought, wait a minute, Lindsay's gonna join me.

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Speaker 1: This is gonna be awesome. And I read all the replies.

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Speaker 1: Nobody has my perspective on this, and I wanted to

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Speaker 1: share it with you.

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Speaker 2: Are you ready?

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Speaker 4: WOA?

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Speaker 1: It depends on how you feel about cleaning people coming

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Speaker 1: into your room.

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Speaker 3: Oh that's a first of all, not a fan, right,

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Speaker 3: I'm a privacy on the door the entire time.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: So the way I look at it is, and I

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Speaker 1: was in Monday night when you sent this tweet.

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Speaker 2: I'm in the same predicament.

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Speaker 1: Two beds, and I said, well, I slept in that

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Speaker 1: one last night and I'm sleeping in this one tonight

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Speaker 1: because there's nothing better than getting into a nice made bed.

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Speaker 1: But you know, if you like the cleaning person, they'll

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Speaker 1: come in and make it for you. If you're like

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Speaker 1: me not a slob. So I don't need a cleaning

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Speaker 1: person every day. Don't love them coming in. I'd prefer

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Speaker 1: to not have them in at all. It was a

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Speaker 1: two nights day, so basically I don't have a cleaning

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Speaker 1: person for the duration of this day, and on both

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Speaker 1: nights I get a tucked in, made bed and I'm set.

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Speaker 2: So there's the answer.

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Speaker 3: That is a great answer. I am a slob, and

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Speaker 3: that's part of the reason they don't want them in

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Speaker 3: because they don't want to have to clean up for

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Speaker 3: the cleaning lady when I'm away and also busy. But

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Speaker 3: I yeah, I think that that's fascinating that you switch

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Speaker 3: when you're there. Yes, I have found and most people

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Speaker 3: a lot of people responded window, and a lot of

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Speaker 3: people responded window because it was closest to the air

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Speaker 3: conditioning in a lot of hotel rooms and they wanted

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Speaker 3: that or whatever. There were a lot of responses that

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Speaker 3: said that they were at wherever it made sense in

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Speaker 3: terms of eyeline with the TV. And I think that

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Speaker 3: that's maybe my rash. Now I have been racking my brain.

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Speaker 3: I supped in the one closest to the door, have

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Speaker 3: been sleeping in the one closest to the door here

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Speaker 3: in Indy, and I think that that's why. I think

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Speaker 3: it's TV proximity and I'm just trained to go to

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Speaker 3: wherever even though I'm not watching TV here. So it's

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Speaker 3: a totally irrelevant concept. But I think just I scan

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Speaker 3: the layout of the room and then go, that's where

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Speaker 3: I will be. But I'm not one hundred percent sure

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Speaker 3: that's the reason for me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So for me, it's always if I'm there multiple nights.

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Speaker 1: It's both beds, I'm going to use both if it's

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Speaker 1: one of the other, I guess I sleep away from

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Speaker 1: the bathroom for reasons that we are not going to

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Speaker 1: talk about here. I told this is a high end

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Speaker 1: this is high end stuff. For talking about here, I

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Speaker 1: can't think.

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Speaker 3: You should do like a caller segment of Yeah Day.

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Speaker 2: That might be what we do next.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, let's just talk about Trey Hendricks some more. I'd

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Speaker 1: rather talk about the hotel. Get up, enjoy the time

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Speaker 1: in Indiga. Can't thank you enough. We love the Suomer Sports.

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Speaker 1: The folks at Suomer Sports are always so kind to

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Speaker 1: us and awesome to have you.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much, thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: That's Lindsay Rhoads from the Combine and Indie the Suomer

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Speaker 1: Sports Show. Check out sumer sports dot com. We are

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Speaker 1: extraordinarily late. I will tell you that I was gonna

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Speaker 1: tell you that the Reds game is over, but instead

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Speaker 1: I'm looking at a blank screen.

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Speaker 2: It's over.

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Speaker 1: They won the game three two. Uh more amazing content

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Speaker 1: like what you just listened to. Next on ESPN fifteen to.

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Speaker 3: Thirty, Cincinnati's ESPN fifteen thirty Traffic.

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Speaker 2: From the UC Health Traffic Center at u See Health.

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Speaker 2: They never miss a beat. Your heart shouldn't either. If

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00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:37,080
Speaker 2: you have signs of cardiac rhythm disorder, don't wait to

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Speaker 2: be seen.

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Speaker 1: Schedule online at ucehealth dot com.

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Speaker 3: Westbound seventy four, the off ramp to eastbound two seventy

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Speaker 3: five at the coal Ring splits now reopened.

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Speaker 2: That disabled garbage truck has been towed away.

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Speaker 1: However, northbound seventy one, it's an accident on the entrance

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Speaker 1: ramp from Montgomery Road, right shoulder block down the ramp.

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Speaker 2: I'm at ez that like with traffic, this report