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Speaker 1: Can I be of service, el woman? When you're in despair,

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Speaker 1: When you're quait century home gets on your nerves with

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Speaker 1: it's quaint century plumbing. One man will be by your side,

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Speaker 1: fighting for truth, justice and a decent hot shower.

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Speaker 2: Ya tell woman, that was a brand new shower curtain.

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Speaker 1: Sorry, Dan, but what if I told you that. One

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Speaker 1: call to the plumbing experts at HL Bowman and you

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Speaker 1: can have a new state of the art tankless water

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Speaker 1: hitter and all the hot water your family could ever want.

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Speaker 3: Honey, who are you talking to?

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Speaker 4: It's the HL Bowman Bowman.

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Speaker 5: And he wants us to get a tankless water heater.

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Speaker 2: Well he makes a good point, y tell woman.

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Speaker 1: Visit Ahlpowman dot com.

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Speaker 4: All right time now for sports of Patriots gearing up

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Speaker 4: for the AFC Championship game against the Broncos. They traveled

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Speaker 4: to Denver on Saturday. Kickoff is set for three o'clock

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Speaker 4: on Sunday, and the only Boston team in action tonight

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Speaker 4: is the Celtics, who are in Detroit to face the Pistons.

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Speaker 4: That game just getting underway. Now you're listening to WBZ

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Speaker 4: News Radio Boston. I'm Sherry Small. Now Tonight's side with you.

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Speaker 6: It's nice eyes, Dan Ray, I'm going easy Boston's News Radio.

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Speaker 2: Thank you very much, Sherry Small. As both Sherry Small,

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Speaker 2: Rob Brooks and I work the Martin Luther King Holiday,

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Speaker 2: first of all, great day in America to celebrate, to

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Speaker 2: celebrate the life and legacy of a great man, doctor

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Speaker 2: Martin Luther King. I chose to work today as I

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Speaker 2: often work holidays, because frankly, I enjoy working holidays, and

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Speaker 2: I hope you enjoy having a live talk show.

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Speaker 5: To listen to.

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Speaker 2: Before we get to our four guest this hour, just

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Speaker 2: a quick reminder that we will announce the winner, of course,

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Speaker 2: the as everyone most people thought the Patriots won yesterday,

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Speaker 2: and we have a winner. We have a winner from

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Speaker 2: our predict the final score, and we will announce that winner,

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Speaker 2: who should be no stranger to most of you. Always

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Speaker 2: great when it is a nightside listener and nightside caller

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Speaker 2: that wins, uh, and we will award the prize a

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Speaker 2: nightside coffee mug right after nine o'clock tonight. Anyway, my

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Speaker 2: name's Dan right, I am live right now. This is

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Speaker 2: and you can prove it by the way after nine

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Speaker 2: o'clock joining us by calling at six, one, seven, two, five,

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Speaker 2: four to ten thirty or six one, seven, nine three

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Speaker 2: one ten thirty. We're going to talk at that time

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Speaker 2: with Brian Kane, the executive director of the MBTA Advisory Board.

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Speaker 5: That was a very interesting article in.

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Speaker 2: The Boston Globe on Friday which talks about a real

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Speaker 2: financial crisis. The teas spent their entire existence in financial crisis.

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Speaker 2: But Brian, Brian Kane, the executive director of the MBTA

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Speaker 2: Advisory Board, will break it down for us and then

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Speaker 2: we're going to talk at ten o'clock. You know, it's

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Speaker 2: tough to get a doctor these days, and there was

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Speaker 2: an editorial in the Boston Globe today which caught my

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Speaker 2: attention by Shirah Schoenberg, which mentioned an old friend, doctor

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Speaker 2: Jeff Gold, who is a direct primary care physician. And

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Speaker 2: we will explain the difference. And for those of you

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Speaker 2: who have trouble finding doctors in Massachusetts, which is a

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Speaker 2: common problem in this great medical state, will help you

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Speaker 2: out tonight beginning at ten o'clock. But first we have

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Speaker 2: four excellent guests, and what better way to start off

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Speaker 2: MLK Day than to speak with Ryan Hendrickson. He is

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Speaker 2: the assistant director of manuscripts at the Howard Gottlieb Archival

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Speaker 2: Research Center at Boston University. Doctor King secured his PhD

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Speaker 2: in theology at Boston University in Boston University in nineteen

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Speaker 2: fifty five and has donated his papers to the university.

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Speaker 2: And I am delighted to welcome Ryan Hendrickson to Nightside. Ryan,

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Nightside.

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Speaker 5: How are you, sir?

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Speaker 7: I'm great, Thank you so much for having me.

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Speaker 2: I am a graduate of the Law School at Boston University,

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Speaker 2: which you may or may not know, and I don't

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Speaker 2: know the papers which are nearly as important as doctor

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Speaker 2: Martin Luther King. But his papers can be seen by students.

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Speaker 2: But this collection is also open by appointment to the

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Speaker 2: general public, which I think is really interesting.

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Speaker 7: Tell us about that, sure well, doctor King. After he graduated, obviously,

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Speaker 7: he went on to do many great things, and in

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Speaker 7: nineteen sixty four he was actually the first person to

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Speaker 7: donate their papers to what was becoming the Special Collections

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Speaker 7: Department at Boston University, So he was really the first

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Speaker 7: collection papers that existed at the school at all. And yeah,

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Speaker 7: they've been open to the public ever since then. Normally

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Speaker 7: people can contact us. They can email us at archives

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Speaker 7: at BU dot e DU. We're only open certain days

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Speaker 7: of the week and certain times, obviously, but yeah, the

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Speaker 7: papers are there for people to come and look through

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Speaker 7: and gain inspiration from.

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Speaker 5: Now.

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Speaker 2: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Howard Gottlieb,

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Speaker 2: for whom the Archival Research Center was named, was a

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Speaker 2: long time librarian archivist at Boston University.

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Speaker 5: Correct.

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Speaker 7: Well, he actually was recruited there from Yale and recruited

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Speaker 7: to there from Yale, and yeah, well he actually started

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Speaker 7: writer again around nineteen sixty four sixty five. Yeah, he

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Speaker 7: and I actually worked with him for a few years

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Speaker 7: when I started. I started there in two thousand and

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Speaker 7: he passed away in two thousand and five, so there

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Speaker 7: was a few years there where we actually overlapped. But yeah,

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Speaker 7: he really was the founding director and really the cornerstone

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Speaker 7: of the entire center.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I had interviewed him at different times as a

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Speaker 2: television reporter, and also I was a lost student there.

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Speaker 2: I graduated in the mid nineteen seventies from Boston University

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Speaker 2: Law School, and so I knew of him, and I

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Speaker 2: was reminded today when I did my research on this

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Speaker 2: story that the Archival Research center was named in his honor,

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Speaker 2: a very appropriate honor. Tell us a little bit of

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Speaker 2: about the King selection, the doctor Martin Luther King Collection.

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Speaker 2: I guess it's a wide variety of writings and letters,

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Speaker 2: but there's also some other more personal items, including I

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Speaker 2: believe his diploma from the theology school.

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Speaker 7: That's right.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 7: It actually starts chronologically with items from when he was

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Speaker 7: a student at Morehouse College, so it really goes back

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Speaker 7: to the late nineteen forties, and then we have all

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Speaker 7: of the materials from when he was the student that

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Speaker 7: be you the papers he wrote, his his blue exam books,

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Speaker 7: if you remember those, his notebook.

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Speaker 5: I'd rather forget those if you want to make.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, but when you can, if you want to see

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Speaker 7: the grade he got in the comments from his professors,

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Speaker 7: he was somebody who he was. Yeah, he was very

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Speaker 7: a very diligent student, apparently, And we have all of

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Speaker 7: his old syllabi and all of that, and then it

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Speaker 7: really it keeps going after that into his his work

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Speaker 7: at in Montgomery, Alabama, and then the beginnings of the

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Speaker 7: Montgomery bus boycott, which was obviously a very important you know,

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Speaker 7: and the event in civil rights history, and then his

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Speaker 7: other manuscripts were like his his memoirs Dried towards Freedom,

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Speaker 7: and then his other essays and sermons and speeches, and

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Speaker 7: then a lot of the material is letters to him

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Speaker 7: from people all around the world in the United States

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Speaker 7: but also all around the globe actually who writing into

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Speaker 7: support him and wanting to meet with him and talked

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Speaker 7: about him and get his responses to the issues that

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Speaker 7: he was dealing with. So a big chunk of the

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Speaker 7: collection is actually things that he collected and sort of

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Speaker 7: he and his various secretaries from his offices that they

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Speaker 7: wanted to preserve for future generations who wanted to learn

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Speaker 7: about the movement.

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Speaker 8: So they knew as.

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Speaker 7: It was going on that this was very historic, and

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Speaker 7: so they tried to preserve a lot of these things.

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Speaker 7: And then the last material we have it really goes

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Speaker 7: up from him to about nineteen sixty five, and it

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Speaker 7: kind of cuts off right before the march on Washington.

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Speaker 7: So then there's a whole other collection that's in Atlanta

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Speaker 7: at Morehouse College that has that later material. So we

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Speaker 7: have the sort of the first part and they have

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Speaker 7: the later part there.

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Speaker 2: Just amazing, I assume, as they say, has to be

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Speaker 2: the most honest guy in the world to allow his

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Speaker 2: blue books, his blue test books. I've I've what did

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Speaker 2: he He must have kept them? I burned mine. Holy kidding.

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Speaker 8: Yeah.

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Speaker 7: So one thing it's funny at what that you learn

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Speaker 7: when you look at the papers is when he came

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Speaker 7: to Boston, he wanted to be he wanted to probably

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Speaker 7: be following his father's footsteps and be a preacher. But

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Speaker 7: he also I think had a certain dream of being

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Speaker 7: an academic. So he studied systematic theology, which is which

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Speaker 7: is a very kind of philosophical, abstract branch of theology.

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Speaker 7: And I think an early point in his his studies,

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Speaker 7: I think he thought of himself as like, yes, this

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Speaker 7: is this is my path. And then the funny thing

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Speaker 7: is there were a lot of professors at the you

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Speaker 7: that were actually sort of older, you know, had participated

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Speaker 7: in the civil rights movement back in the twenties and

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Speaker 7: thirties and forties, and they talked to him about other,

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Speaker 7: you know, possibilities that you know, things that he could do,

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Speaker 7: maybe he could be a little more more engaged with

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Speaker 7: some social issues the time. And then also I think

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Speaker 7: living in Boston, you know, he lived at the corner

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Speaker 7: of Mass Ave in Columbus h and there was a

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Speaker 7: there was a real thriving black life being going on

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Speaker 7: in Boston at that time that he wanted to be

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Speaker 7: a part of as well. And from someone who came,

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Speaker 7: you know, from the South, I think it was it

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Speaker 7: was very engaging with him. I think he it really

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Speaker 7: opened his eyes to a whole other life that he

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Speaker 7: hadn't really participated in before. So he really changed a

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Speaker 7: lot during the just the very short four years that

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Speaker 7: he was in Boston. He left as a very different

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Speaker 7: person than when he came.

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Speaker 2: One other question, obviously, he was, sadly was the was

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Speaker 2: the target of a lot of hatred, particularly as he

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Speaker 2: became better known.

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Speaker 5: Is is any of the.

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Speaker 2: Hate mail that he and his family was subjected to.

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Speaker 2: Are they part of the archives at all? Or No?

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Speaker 7: He did save some, Yeah, and you can, and they

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Speaker 7: would label it, actually his secretary would label you know,

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Speaker 7: they would put the word hate on top.

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Speaker 9: Yeah.

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Speaker 7: And then there were other letters that they would write

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Speaker 7: love or the fan letters, and another they would write

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Speaker 7: strange if just they didn't know what to make of them.

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Speaker 7: But yeah, if you if you really wanted to see

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Speaker 7: the kind of things that they thought were worth saving,

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Speaker 7: they would save them, and I think in some cases

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Speaker 7: it was because he had been attacked during his book tour,

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Speaker 7: first Drive Towards Freedom and Women had actually come up

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Speaker 7: and stabbed him very very almost very close to killing him,

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Speaker 7: and he actually talked about it in his very last

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Speaker 7: speech he ever gave h you if you watch that speech,

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Speaker 7: he actually goes into detail about that encounter. But I

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Speaker 7: think after that the decision was, well, if something like

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Speaker 7: this happens again, we want to have some kind of

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Speaker 7: a trail or evidence of CIS as somebody who had

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Speaker 7: been planning something. It's not a lot, but but it is.

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Speaker 7: It is interesting and sometimes students are surprised that that

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Speaker 7: he would have retained them. And my response is that, well,

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Speaker 7: you know, if you're if you're thinking of keeping these

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Speaker 7: things for posterity, you don't want to edit them out.

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Speaker 7: You want to keep them for other people to see.

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Speaker 2: So so what is the easiest way. Students must know

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Speaker 2: their way If there are people on our audience some

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Speaker 2: day or some day you know soon or some day

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Speaker 2: in the future, I would like to view some of

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Speaker 2: the archives. Did they just contact the Gottlieb Archival Research

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Speaker 2: Center at Boston University and set up a time and

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Speaker 2: an appointment and explain what they're what their purpose is.

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Speaker 5: I assume.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, there's a couple of ways to look at the

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Speaker 7: papers there if you just want to sort of get

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Speaker 7: a sense of what's in there. We actually do have

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Speaker 7: a permanent exhibit that's up right now that that's always

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Speaker 7: up in the library. So if the library is open,

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Speaker 7: this is a Newgard Memorial Library. If the library's open,

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Speaker 7: that that room is open. So you will have to

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Speaker 7: sort of check in at the front desk and say

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Speaker 7: I'd like to go see the you know, the kingroom

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Speaker 7: on the third floor. Sure, Uh, go up there, and

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Speaker 7: you can see examples from all different aspects of taking

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Speaker 7: you know, samples from the papers. You can see his

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Speaker 7: student work. You can see the Montgomery Buss book out.

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Speaker 7: You can see the work he did with the Freedom

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Speaker 7: rides and Snick and his trips to India and Africa,

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Speaker 7: and letters from friends of his that he had at

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Speaker 7: Boston as well.

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Speaker 10: Uh.

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Speaker 7: And if if you actually have you know, research questions,

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Speaker 7: if you if you want to dig in deeper, that's

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Speaker 7: what you could you could email us and then we

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Speaker 7: could you know, we can work and work out the

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Speaker 7: time and how to help you out, Ryan.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate all the information. Great to be in touch,

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Speaker 2: Ryan Handrick send the assistant director from Manuscripts at the

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Speaker 2: Howard Gottlieb Archival Research Center at Boston University, which is

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Speaker 2: inside the Mugar Library.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for tonight. You're a great guest and a

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Speaker 2: great interview. I appreciate the opportunity, particularly on this MLK day.

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Speaker 9: Great.

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Speaker 7: Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

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Speaker 5: You very welcome.

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Speaker 2: When we get back, we're going to talk about some controversy,

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Speaker 2: but maybe less controversy then we realize our FK Junior,

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Speaker 2: Robert F. Kennedy, Junr. Has has had an impact on

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Speaker 2: the food pyramid. We're going to talk with a cardio

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Speaker 2: all just and director of the Food is Medicine Institute

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Speaker 2: at Tough's University. I think we might be surprised with

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Speaker 2: what doctor dush Mussafarin has to say about Kennedy on

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Speaker 2: the whole question of whole milk versus what was thought

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Speaker 2: to be more healthy milk. We'll explain coming up right

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Speaker 2: after the break.

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Speaker 6: It's Night Side with Boston's News Radio.

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Speaker 2: My guess is doctor dush Mozafarian, doctor Mosafarian. Welcome to nightside.

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Speaker 5: How are you.

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Speaker 8: I'm doing well, Nice to be here.

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Speaker 5: Lovely to have you here.

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Speaker 2: You're a cardiologist and director of the Food is Medicine

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Speaker 2: Institute at Tough's University. And all of a sudden, uh,

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Speaker 2: many people I think are taking a second look at

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Speaker 2: what Robert F. Kennedy Junior has said about low fat

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Speaker 2: milk milk versus whole milk.

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Speaker 5: He Uh, there's a real split in the ranks. Here.

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Speaker 5: Tell us about it.

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Speaker 8: Well, you know, the dietary guidelines just came out there,

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Speaker 8: the Nations and Nutrition Playbook, revised every five years, and

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Speaker 8: they're they're of course important for giving general guidance to

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Speaker 8: the public, but most people don't have helped with bet

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Speaker 8: standards for school meals, for daycare. They shape military rations

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Speaker 8: and federal cafeterias, and influence how companies formulate and market food.

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Speaker 8: So they're they're really important, and there's many changes. One'm

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Speaker 8: happy to talk about them. The one that you mentioned

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Speaker 8: I think is actually long overdue. As a cardiologist who

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Speaker 8: studies dietary fat, you know, the guidelines say you can

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Speaker 8: include whole fat dairy with with no added sugar, and

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Speaker 8: that is a positive change, you know, taking us away

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Speaker 8: from all this flavored, sugar sweetened, you know, non fat

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Speaker 8: dairy that that have really you know, loaded up our

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Speaker 8: refrigerators and school school meal trays for decades.

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Speaker 2: So, given a choice, I used to be a whole

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Speaker 2: milk guy, and I was influenced by everything that I read,

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Speaker 2: and I became a two percent milk guy. And then

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Speaker 2: I said, if I'm going to be two percent, why

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Speaker 2: not be one percent? So I'm a one percent milk guy.

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Speaker 2: And then it tastes the same to me. Am I

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Speaker 2: making a mistake by not having whole milk in our refrigerator?

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Speaker 8: Yeah? So I think what we can say convincingly is that,

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Speaker 8: you know, low fat's not better than whole fat, but well,

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Speaker 8: it's also not necessarily worse. And so I think right now,

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Speaker 8: if you're happy with the fat content of your yogurt

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Speaker 8: or your cheese or your milk, you know, stick with it,

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Speaker 8: no problem. But if you prefer hole or you want

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Speaker 8: to switch the whole, there's no evidence that that's worse

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Speaker 8: for you. And there's maybe some evidence, early evidence that

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Speaker 8: it could be better, but not enough that I would

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Speaker 8: tell everybody to switch. But maybe most importantly, if you're

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Speaker 8: having a sweetened yogurt or chocolate milk, or you know,

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Speaker 8: other things, because dairy just doesn't taste good for you, you know,

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Speaker 8: then that might be a great opportunity to switch the

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Speaker 8: whole fat yogurt, add some berries or nuts, and get

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Speaker 8: away from the sweet stuff.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well you've nailed me there, because I do like

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Speaker 2: a chocolate milk, but I will take that into consideration.

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Speaker 2: I know that you were quoted prominently in this New

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Speaker 2: York Times article from November by Caroline Hopkins' legacy. And

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Speaker 2: what I don't understand is these studies are done. There

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Speaker 2: was one study from Norway which found one thing, a

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Speaker 2: study from October at seventy four thousand adults in Norway

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Speaker 2: found one thing, and then a study in this country

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Speaker 2: found a different conclusions.

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Speaker 5: That's what.

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Speaker 2: Is so confusing to us, the consumers. I mean, for

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Speaker 2: a long time, Robert F. Kennedy Junior was the butt

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Speaker 2: of a lot of jokes. And the more I read

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Speaker 2: about him now I'm beginning to wonder that, hey, this

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Speaker 2: guy has has had some interesting points, not without controversy.

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Speaker 2: And I don't want you to endorse anybody here, but

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Speaker 2: he was not what he was presented to be. He

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Speaker 2: was sort of, I mean, made a caricature of by

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Speaker 2: a lot, And it sounds to me like this guy's

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Speaker 2: actually at least has some thoughts and has been thinking

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Speaker 2: about these issues.

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Speaker 8: Oh well, you know, I don't I don't agree with

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Speaker 8: all of his positions on offtism or vaccines or but

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Speaker 8: you know, for food, he's mostly got it right, mostly

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Speaker 8: got it right, and he's attacking you know, well entrenched

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Speaker 8: industry interests that have that have dominated kind of dietary

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Speaker 8: guidelines for decades. And this is quite interesting. Republicans, Democrats,

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Speaker 8: you know, Democratic States, people in Congress, everyone saying, hey,

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Speaker 8: you know, Secretary sticks to food, and we're happy because

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Speaker 8: he really does have it mostly right.

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Speaker 10: You know.

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Speaker 8: Beyond the dairy, the biggest single change in dietary guidelines

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Speaker 8: is really refreshingly plain spoken, limit or avoid highly processed

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Speaker 8: packaged foods, ready to eat food sugary drinks, refined carbohydrates,

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Speaker 8: food with foods with additives and preservatives. That hasn't been

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Speaker 8: a major message in the guidelines. In fact, the guidelines

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Speaker 8: have actually done the opposite. They've said, you know, there's

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Speaker 8: no bad foods as long as you hit your nutrient targets.

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Speaker 8: Anything can fit into a balanced pattern. And that's really

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Speaker 8: an industry promoted message, right that eat everything in moderation,

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Speaker 8: And this guideline says, no, don't eat everything in moderation.

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Speaker 8: There's a lot of bad food out there, and eat

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Speaker 8: real food. And I think that's actually the most single

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Speaker 8: most important advance in these actual guidelines.

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Speaker 2: So things like, for example, soups, which we had always

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Speaker 2: been told, oh, soups are great, you know, bowl of soup, whatever,

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Speaker 2: But now the salt content worries me about soups, and

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden, I'm thinking about salt contents with

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Speaker 2: even you know, sort of high end soups, even like

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Speaker 2: a progresso soup, which is a little more expensive and

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Speaker 2: you would think.

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Speaker 5: Is a little better.

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Speaker 2: It just is amazing to me that these that I

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Speaker 2: guess the food industry has such a financial influence here

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Speaker 2: that not only they contribute to politicians, but I guess

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Speaker 2: they participate in these studies and they they are able

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Speaker 2: to have these studies come to conclusions which are beneficial

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Speaker 2: of them. It sounds to me like it's, uh, we

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Speaker 2: got to take everything pardon the pun here with a

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Speaker 2: huge grain of salt.

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Speaker 8: Well, the simplest approach to a healthy diet is to

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Speaker 8: you know, buy ingredients and cook or assemble the food yourself.

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Speaker 8: That's obviously that's straightforward approach. But you know, whole grains,

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Speaker 8: nuts and seeds, you know, dairy, chicken, poultry, eggs, that's

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Speaker 8: that's hard for folks because people are busy and they

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Speaker 8: need to grab something, they need something prepared, and so

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Speaker 8: then it gets complicated. And that's where you know, we

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Speaker 8: really need, you know, policy change so that people don't

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Speaker 8: have to go and navigate and figure out what's what's

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Speaker 8: what's good or bad? I think for now, while we're

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Speaker 8: waiting for policy change to hopefully stimulate better food through

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Speaker 8: our federal food programs and healthcare dollars and all kinds

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Speaker 8: of levers we have, you're right, you know, you have

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Speaker 8: to look at the label and start to pay attention.

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Speaker 8: And what's interesting is there has been a sea change

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Speaker 8: of interest. Five years ago, maybe ten or twenty percent

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Speaker 8: of Americans would look at labels. Now it's sixty or

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Speaker 8: seventy percent. And so like you, they're turning the package

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Speaker 8: over and saying, wow, you know this has five hundred

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Speaker 8: milligrams of sodium or three hundred and fifty milligrams of

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Speaker 8: sodium instead of fifty, which is probably what I should have.

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Speaker 8: Maybe I should, you know, take a second look.

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Speaker 2: I got to tell you I am a label looker.

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Speaker 2: I've only become home one later in my life here,

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Speaker 2: but I used to be a pepsi drinker until one

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Speaker 2: day I looked at the label and I said, forty

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Speaker 2: one carbs for every can of pepsi.

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Speaker 5: Uh.

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Speaker 2: You know. Now it's like diet pepsi for me, and

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Speaker 2: it really helped me lose weight as well as being

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Speaker 2: on a great diet program called Awake in one eighties.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, I'm fascinated by this, and I really appreciate

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Speaker 2: you you've described You've described it to us very clearly,

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Speaker 2: which I really do appreciate. I'd love to get you

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Speaker 2: back periodically as some of these stories unfold. I really

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Speaker 2: enjoy chatting with you.

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Speaker 8: Happy to be on Keep up the healthy diet. It's

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Speaker 8: the single most important thing you can do for the

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Speaker 8: healthy long life.

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Speaker 5: Thank you very much.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Darius Mussafran Safarian excuse me, cardiologist and director of

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Speaker 2: Food is Medicine Institute at Toughs University. Thank you so much,

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Speaker 2: Doctor appreciated your ton. When we get back right after

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Speaker 2: the newscast, we're going to talk about a very interesting farm,

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Speaker 2: not a farm per se, although it is a farm,

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Speaker 2: but it helps people get through addiction treatments. Sean Hayden,

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Speaker 2: President and CEO of the Gardener Atholl Area Mental Health Association,

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Speaker 2: will join us. This is a great story. We'll be

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Speaker 2: back right after the news at the bottom of the hour.

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Speaker 6: With Dany. I'm Boston's News Radio.

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Speaker 5: Thanks Erry.

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Speaker 2: The interesting therapeutic communities is growing across the United States,

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Speaker 2: and there's as a matter of fact, speaking of the

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Speaker 2: Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, as we

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Speaker 2: did last segment about the food Pyramid, he's encouraging the

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Speaker 2: creation of more what are called healing farms across the

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Speaker 2: country for people struggling struggling with substance abuse. With us

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Speaker 2: is Sean Hayden. Sean is the president and CEO of

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Speaker 2: the Gardner Atholl Area Mental Health Association. It's an addiction

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Speaker 2: treatment farm. Kind of happened by accident, but it's doing

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Speaker 2: great work up there in north central Massachusetts. Delighted to

439
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,679
Speaker 2: welcome Sean Hayden to Night's Side. Sean. You started with

440
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:49,479
Speaker 2: two goats and a pony, and you have really really

441
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:53,160
Speaker 2: provided a service to a lot of people and also

442
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:55,680
Speaker 2: increased the animal population in the farm.

443
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 5: How are you this evening?

444
00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:57,640
Speaker 6: Very well?

445
00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:57,880
Speaker 5: Did?

446
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:00,280
Speaker 9: Thank you so much for having me on my pleasure.

447
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 5: You're really doing God's work here.

448
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:03,000
Speaker 9: Thank you.

449
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,440
Speaker 2: You bought the farm. You weren't looking to start an

450
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 2: addiction treatment centers.

451
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:08,919
Speaker 5: I understand it.

452
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 9: No, we really weren't. You know, our organization has been

453
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 9: providing substance use treatment since nineteen seventy two, and we

454
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,920
Speaker 9: have a really robust aftercare housing program for our kind

455
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 9: of more traditional recovery programs, and we were looking to

456
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,399
Speaker 9: add another house to that program. And you know what

457
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:26,840
Speaker 9: we were looking for is a house that kind of

458
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:28,359
Speaker 9: checked the boxes for us, which is, I had to

459
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 9: have a bunch of bedrooms, a bunch of bathrooms, a

460
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,159
Speaker 9: lot of space for kind of congregate living. And we

461
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,680
Speaker 9: finally found a house. It just happened to be sitting

462
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 9: on a at that time a forty acre farm, and

463
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 9: you know, we reached an agreement with the owner to

464
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 9: lease the house and he said, well, I don't know

465
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 9: what I'm going to do with these you know, a couple

466
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:47,440
Speaker 9: of goats and a pony. Can they just stay here?

467
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 9: And we kind of just said sure because we really

468
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 9: needed the house. And what happened was, you know, we said, okay, guys,

469
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:54,880
Speaker 9: you know you're going to live here, can you help

470
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 9: us care for these animals? And very quickly we started

471
00:24:57,880 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 9: to notice that the people who took an interest in

472
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 9: animals other things are happening in their lives that we

473
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:05,920
Speaker 9: didn't expect. They were staying longer, they're having better outcomes,

474
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 9: and kind of let us down this path of discovery

475
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,200
Speaker 9: to say, you know, is there anyone else using farms

476
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 9: is kind of a unique environment to serve people in recovery.

477
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:18,159
Speaker 9: And you know, we found that this whole idea of

478
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:20,679
Speaker 9: care farming had existed for hundreds of years and been

479
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:25,400
Speaker 9: used for all kinds of populations, primarily psychiatric, you know, populations,

480
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,120
Speaker 9: people with developmental disabilities. But we couldn't find any other

481
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 9: farms that really specializing in serving people in recovery. But we,

482
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 9: you know, we decided to give it a go, and

483
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:36,120
Speaker 9: it's just taken off like gangbusters.

484
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 2: So when did you buy When did you buy the farm?

485
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:41,199
Speaker 5: How long? How long have they been running?

486
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 6: Yeah?

487
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 9: Yeah, We started out in twenty eighteen at that site

488
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,639
Speaker 9: I just described, and then in twenty twenty, you know,

489
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 9: we couldn't really arrive on a on a sustainable payment

490
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,440
Speaker 9: model because our organization really serves people low and no income,

491
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 9: so everything we do comes at no cost to the

492
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 9: care to the people we so and that original model

493
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 9: was kind of a pilot. There was no you know,

494
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 9: insurance reimbursement model or anything like that, so we tried

495
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,199
Speaker 9: to do like a low cost private pay model, but

496
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,120
Speaker 9: it just didn't work well for the people we serve.

497
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 9: And then in twenty twenty, we're actually getting ready to

498
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 9: shut down the program. It was incredibly successful clinically, but

499
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 9: it was just not sustainable as a nonprofit organization. Our

500
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 9: board kind of said, you know, we can't just supplement

501
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,400
Speaker 9: and you know, feed money into this program. We lost

502
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 9: like a half a million dollars over a couple of years.

503
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 9: And then a new property came on the market not

504
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 9: too far away, and we found a path where we

505
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,119
Speaker 9: could actually this new site was more conducive to a

506
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:39,440
Speaker 9: to be able to do a license treatment center there,

507
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 9: and we were able to do that, and now the

508
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 9: people who attend to our new location that opened in

509
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,440
Speaker 9: twenty twenty. They're actually it's an in network benefit on

510
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 9: their mass health benefits.

511
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 2: So let me ask you which I don't understand. I'm

512
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:52,360
Speaker 2: sure you can explain to me. You were doing good

513
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:56,440
Speaker 2: work for people who needed help, and there was no

514
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,919
Speaker 2: financial support from either the state or the FAS for

515
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 2: a program that you guys were doing great work and

516
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,400
Speaker 2: helping people. I mean, where the hell's a our tax

517
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 2: money going if it's not programs like yours.

518
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 9: Well, the issue we had was that that first farm

519
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,120
Speaker 9: was a very old one hundred and fifty year old,

520
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 9: you know, classic New England farmhouse, but it lacked all

521
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 9: the kind of the key qualities you need to be

522
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,639
Speaker 9: licensed as treatment center. So it didn't have you know,

523
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 9: fire sprinklers, it wasn't eightya accessible, it didn't have all

524
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 9: those things that are requirements to be able to seek

525
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 9: reimbursement from Medicaid for that. So the new site allowed

526
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:29,400
Speaker 9: us to do that, which really.

527
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 8: Changed the game.

528
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 9: So now people will come to us, you know, they

529
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 9: can come to us regardless if they have any income,

530
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 9: no income, and it's really really changed the dynamic.

531
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 2: It seems to me that the government, instead of knocking

532
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 2: you up. And again, I'm always very skeptical of government

533
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 2: as opposed to coming in and telling you reasons why

534
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,120
Speaker 2: they can't support you. They should have commem in and said, look,

535
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 2: we have some programs which will make this ada accessible.

536
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 2: We will make sure that this fire sprinkles here, will

537
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 2: help you bring this up, this building up to date.

538
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 2: So you kent try people as opposed to tell you

539
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:04,680
Speaker 2: know what was it? Robert Kennedy said, some men see

540
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,680
Speaker 2: the things the way things are and ask why. Other

541
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:10,920
Speaker 2: see the way things are and ask why not. I'm

542
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 2: one of those who asked why not. Why would the

543
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 2: government not come in and say we could make this

544
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 2: work in conjunction? You would just infuriates me, to be

545
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 2: honest with you.

546
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 9: Sean, Yeah, well I think I think like you do, Dan,

547
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 9: because when we first got the new site, we went

548
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 9: to get it credentialed as a state license treatment center.

549
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,199
Speaker 9: I actually didn't tell them ahead of time that they

550
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 9: were coming to a farm. I looked at their their

551
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 9: licensing rubric and I said, okay, these are all the

552
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 9: checkboxes I have to meet. And they showed up and

553
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 9: they're like, where are we what are we doing here?

554
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 9: And I said, pull out your checklist, we can make

555
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 9: this work. And sure enough, you know, we had met

556
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 9: all the specifications that were required. What they the regulations

557
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 9: didn't say it couldn't be a farm, you know. And

558
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 9: I'm a person of recovery. I always joked like I

559
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 9: was using my old skills to UH for something good

560
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 9: this time.

561
00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 2: Well yeah, no, I mean, I guess you're you're bad experience.

562
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 2: But I that's one of Kennedy's quotes that I really like,

563
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 2: because the government should be looking at situations like that

564
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 2: and say, and not you know, asking well, why do

565
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 2: you want us to do this? Why shouldn't they do it?

566
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 2: It's as simple as that. So you're successful. How are

567
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 2: there the patients, the customers? I don't know what your

568
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 2: character the guests, I don't know what phraseology you use.

569
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 2: How are the folks who you're treating, How are they doing?

570
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 9: They're doing fantastic. I mean, we've had remarkable success. And

571
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 9: I think the reason is, you know, the wait list

572
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 9: that we'll never see the end of. And I think

573
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 9: what we offer people is the treatment system. You know, locally, nationally,

574
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 9: it's very homogeneous. So you go to these treatment centers

575
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 9: and they look very very similar everywhere you go, and

576
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 9: when you think about how they're structured, they look very

577
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 9: much like almost like a high school environment and schedule.

578
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 9: And when you talk to the people we serve, you say,

579
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 9: tell me what your school experience was like, the vast

580
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 9: majority will tell you they didn't have a positive school experience.

581
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 9: So what we do is we rap clinical care around

582
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 9: a unique learning environment and healing environment, and they'll behold.

583
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 9: People come and they don't want to leave.

584
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 2: So how can people get in touch with you if

585
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,719
Speaker 2: they feel they need some help and if this sounds

586
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 2: like a program that they would that they would prosper in,

587
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 2: or how can people who have friends who need some

588
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 2: help get in contact with you? Do you have a

589
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 2: big long waiting list?

590
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 10: You know?

591
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 9: You know, yeah, we do run a waiting list. But

592
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 9: I always tell people don't never let a waiting list,

593
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 9: you know, scare you off from putting in a referral,

594
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 9: because the thing that happens is when a bet opens,

595
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 9: we go to that waiting list and the people many

596
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 9: times on that waiting list have moved on to a

597
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 9: different program. So I always encourage people to put a

598
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 9: referral in, and they can do that by calling the

599
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 9: farm directly. It's nine to seven eight eight three zero farm.

600
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:48,959
Speaker 9: Is the phone number they can call, or they can

601
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 9: go right to our parent company, Gamma's website. It's www

602
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 9: dot g a a MHA dot org and there's tons

603
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 9: of information about the program and all of our programs

604
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 9: really and how to get in touch and learn more.

605
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 2: There, give me their phone number one more time. It's

606
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 2: nine seven eight eight three three farm.

607
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 9: Is that it ninety seven eight eight three zero farm.

608
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 2: Free zero farm good? Okay, thank you for that correction.

609
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 2: Nine seven eight eight three zero farm. No cost associated directly.

610
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 2: But obviously if someone has insurance that helps the program

611
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 2: as well.

612
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 9: Yeah, the only insurance plan we take is for people

613
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 9: on Mass Health. If someone is on commercial insurance, we

614
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 9: actually have a contract with the Department of Public Health

615
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 9: Bureau of Substance Addiction Services, we're able to take people

616
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 9: no insurance, people on commercial plans. So anyone who needs

617
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 9: the program and is a fit's the clinical criteria for admission,

618
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 9: we can take care of them.

619
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 2: Sounds great. And when you say they have health insurance,

620
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 2: it could be Blue Cross, Blue Shield or something like

621
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 2: that as well.

622
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 6: Yes, that's right.

623
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:50,959
Speaker 5: Some of the big one.

624
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 2: It's Okay, great, Sean, I appreciate you guys are doing

625
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 2: great work out there.

626
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 5: Keep on keeping on.

627
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,719
Speaker 2: I appreciate your time tonight, Thank you so much.

628
00:31:58,800 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 9: Dan appreciate having me on.

629
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 5: Absolutely my pleasure.

630
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 2: Where we get back, this is pretty interesting, Okay, this one, well,

631
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 2: they're all interesting tonight, but this one is especially interesting.

632
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 2: There's a new trend on the rise among gen z men.

633
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 2: They call themselves tread sons or hub sons. A stay

634
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 2: at home son who chooses to live with his parents,

635
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 2: often rent free for just basically doing you know, domestic

636
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 2: jobs around the house. Basically, it's like an extended adolescence.

637
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 2: We're going to talk with doctor Sanam Hafiz, founder and

638
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 2: director of Comprehend the Mind, and we will explain to

639
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 2: you this is really interesting. Most people of my generation,

640
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 2: they wanted to get out of the house as soon

641
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 2: as possible. Now, a lot of these gen z men,

642
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 2: anyone born after believe it's nineteen ninety.

643
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 5: Six, so you have a lot of too.

644
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 2: I think it's nineteen ninety six up until twenty twelve.

645
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure that's gen Z. So you could have

646
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 2: people who are well getting into their thirties they're still

647
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 2: living at home and they kind of like it. Oh wow,

648
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 2: we'll explain. Coming back on Nightside right after the break.

649
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 6: You're on night Side with Dan Ray on w b Z,

650
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 6: Boston's news radio.

651
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 2: I'm delighted to be joined by doctor Sinam Hafiz, founder

652
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 2: and director of Comprehend the Mind.

653
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 5: Welcome, doctor Hafez. How are you?

654
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 3: I am well, thank you for having me on your show.

655
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 2: So we're going to talk about this new trend on

656
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 2: the rise for gen Z men. Gen Z they were

657
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 2: born from nineteen ninety six on as I understand it, Am.

658
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 5: I correct on that.

659
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 10: I think so yes, okay.

660
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 2: So that means some of them now are crossing the

661
00:33:55,320 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 2: threshold from their late twenties into their thirties. Some of them,

662
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 2: I guess could still be in their early teens, because

663
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:08,920
Speaker 2: I guess gen Z stopped and another gen of subsort

664
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:13,439
Speaker 2: started in twenty twelve. But you got these guys who

665
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 2: don't want to move out their stay at home suns.

666
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,840
Speaker 2: They're called either a traad son or a hub son.

667
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 2: How the hell did this trend get started? Most guys

668
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:28,919
Speaker 2: where turre like you know, eighteen or trying to get out.

669
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 10: It's a very different world. You know than the world

670
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 10: we knew the millennials even knew.

671
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 3: I think there's a lot there are a lot of.

672
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 10: Things that contributed to this.

673
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 3: I think in no small part, the turn in the

674
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 3: economy the world, the excess of reliance on the digital age,

675
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 3: and the pandemic. Don't forget the pandemic really hit a

676
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 3: lot of these young people really poorly because they were

677
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 3: either at the sort of the crops of graduating high

678
00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 3: school or.

679
00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:58,759
Speaker 10: Graduating college, and so.

680
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 3: They entered into a very different world than the generation's

681
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 3: previous to them did. And I think they also are

682
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 3: rejecting a lot of the traditional ideas about men and

683
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 3: women and their roles. You know, there are a lot

684
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 3: of stay at home husbands, so I think this is

685
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 3: just sort of like an extension of that, or even

686
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 3: the child wives, where like, we want to stay home

687
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,360
Speaker 3: and it's and instead of rejecting that notion or feeling

688
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 3: embarrassed by being called mama's boys or used to live

689
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 3: at home, they're saying, yeah, but we're contributing, and you

690
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 3: know they're and to be honest with you, outside the

691
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 3: Western world, there are still cultures where this is not

692
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 3: that unique a concept, where men do stay at home longer,

693
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 3: they do take care of their parents. But in the

694
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 3: Western world, you know, we always see the daughters stepping

695
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 3: into those roles. So I think things are switching up

696
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,319
Speaker 3: a little bit and they're sort of redefining, you know,

697
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 3: what masculinity or being a man means. And I think

698
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 3: there are ways to navigate that for both the parents

699
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:57,320
Speaker 3: and the children, because a lot of parents are like that.

700
00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 3: Out of my home. This is my time to you know,

701
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:03,319
Speaker 3: in my retirement. But if they're living there and they

702
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 3: are contributing in some way, whether they're doing groceries or

703
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 3: you know, doing the laundry or cooking dinner, they're making

704
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:12,880
Speaker 3: themselves useful instead of just playing video games in the

705
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 3: basement all day.

706
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:16,799
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, they're playing video games in the basement all day.

707
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 2: I mean, they should get them out of there. I

708
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,320
Speaker 2: got to tell you, it's interesting that you that you

709
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:26,799
Speaker 2: phrase it this way. I mean the normal instinct for

710
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 2: I think a son or a daughter who has you know, grown.

711
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:32,360
Speaker 5: Up in a home.

712
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 2: Most people want a sense of self and they want

713
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 2: a sense of.

714
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 5: Freedom.

715
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:47,800
Speaker 2: Freedom. Maybe they want to you know, date people and

716
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 2: and find out what adult relationships are like. How do

717
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 2: you navigate adult relationships if you're thirty and still living

718
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:57,720
Speaker 2: at home with mom and dad.

719
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:01,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's that's definitely difficult.

720
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 10: I think on the younger end i've heard of when

721
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 10: I read up on this, I think a lot of

722
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,919
Speaker 10: men who are doing this are men who maybe had

723
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,959
Speaker 10: a kind of a brutal breakup, or lost their job,

724
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:14,280
Speaker 10: or went through some sort of a mental health crisis.

725
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 3: And I think the majority of people who opt.

726
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:18,799
Speaker 10: To go home back to their parents or live with

727
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,280
Speaker 10: their mom, I think usually have.

728
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 3: Parents who are safe and protective, because not every parent's

729
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 3: home is the kind of home you can come back to,

730
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 3: you know, so there's some level of comfort and safety.

731
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:33,879
Speaker 3: And I think those parents are saying, well, I don't

732
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 3: want to reject my child if he needs this. The

733
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:36,840
Speaker 3: world is hard.

734
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 8: I want to.

735
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 3: Provide this comfort or this safety for him till he's

736
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:41,759
Speaker 3: ready to go back out there.

737
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 10: I think thinks I'll shifted on both ends a little bit.

738
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I understand that we had two children in their thirties.

739
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 2: They're both of our kids are married and out in

740
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:59,959
Speaker 2: independence in their own careers, and we're happy that they're happy.

741
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:01,240
Speaker 5: I just wonder.

742
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:05,279
Speaker 2: What percentage I hate to do this to you, but

743
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:09,319
Speaker 2: is there a percentage number here? Is this something that's

744
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 2: like one half of one percent? And are we making

745
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,760
Speaker 2: too much of it? Are we talking about a real

746
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:18,760
Speaker 2: trend that you know, five or six percent that maybe

747
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 2: could get even larger as time goes on. I hate

748
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 2: to ask you to quantify, but we don't script questions

749
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 2: on this program.

750
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,279
Speaker 3: No, that's okay, that's okay, that's okay. I didn't I

751
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,319
Speaker 3: didn't read. I don't think there's any you know, sort

752
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 3: of national studit of health research out there on and

753
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,439
Speaker 3: that I can vote. But I think, look, I think

754
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 3: there are a lot of kids who've moved back home

755
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 3: with their parents women. I think that listen, this is

756
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 3: a much longer conversation that I don't think we could

757
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 3: cover in intent fifteen minutes on the radio. I think

758
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:49,280
Speaker 3: there's there are a lot of shifts that are happening simultaneously.

759
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:51,839
Speaker 3: I think women are a bit more ambitious. Women are

760
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,319
Speaker 3: beginning to make more money graduating college than their male

761
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:59,760
Speaker 3: counterparts are. And I think men are beginning to struggle.

762
00:38:59,320 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 10: A little bit.

763
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,319
Speaker 3: And this is why so many men identified with you know,

764
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 3: the people like Charlie Karr, because they were speaking to

765
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:08,879
Speaker 3: a certain population out there. You know, for good reason.

766
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 10: These men were struggling to find their footing in the

767
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 10: real world.

768
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,400
Speaker 3: And I think there is some people as always go

769
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 3: a little bit, you know, leaning a little bit too much.

770
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 10: On one end of the spectrum.

771
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 3: I do think that anyone whose son moves in indefinitely

772
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 3: should be concerned, because that's not good for anyone. I

773
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 3: want to get back on my feet.

774
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:32,840
Speaker 10: I just need to reset. Maybe I'll take some classes

775
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:35,279
Speaker 10: online classes. But in the meantime, you know, let's say

776
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 10: mom or dad, someone's going through a rough patch. They

777
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 10: need doctor's appointment. So you know, someone's working too much,

778
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 10: and you're like, look, I'll clean the house.

779
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:44,920
Speaker 3: I'll you know, I won't. I'll earn my keep.

780
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 10: I think within certain parameters, I think it's okay. I

781
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 10: think mental health to figure into it. I think the

782
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 10: expensive lifestyle or and you know you said something about

783
00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,959
Speaker 10: you know, kids wanting to leave the home. It's also

784
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,399
Speaker 10: taking the stigma off of it. And the reason we're

785
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 10: hearing about this more to your question about you know,

786
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:08,879
Speaker 10: what's the number, it's because most people are coming out

787
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,239
Speaker 10: and talking about it on social media and almost not

788
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 10: like bragging about it, but kind of finding their niche

789
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 10: and saying, well, we're going to we know what to

790
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 10: call this now instead of a bummy son who lives

791
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 10: in his bomb's.

792
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:21,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, so let me ask you this question.

793
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:26,720
Speaker 2: Okay, there has been a trend in this society. Everybody

794
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 2: gets a trophy. You go to college, and if you

795
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,319
Speaker 2: don't like what the professor says, you look for a

796
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 2: comfort animal, or you look for a blanket and a

797
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:35,840
Speaker 2: safe space.

798
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 5: You know what I'm talking about.

799
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 2: You know, the greatest generation eighteen year old kids were

800
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 2: hitting the beaches at Normandy at the age of eighteen,

801
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 2: and we have a generation now where some kids are

802
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 2: going home to mom and dad. Is that? Is that

803
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 2: generally healthy and that I'll ask you for a thirty second.

804
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 2: That's a pretty deep question, but I'd ask you maybe

805
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 2: if you give me a quick wrap on it. I

806
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 2: just it strikes me that something we're wrong here.

807
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 3: Listen, I get it.

808
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:05,239
Speaker 10: I get it. I come from a generation where my

809
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 10: dad was the breadwinner and the family right. And I

810
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 10: have two young sons, have ten year old boys, and

811
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 10: so I kind of feel sandwiched and squished between the

812
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 10: two types of men.

813
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,760
Speaker 3: I think a lot of men in the older times

814
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 3: felt a tremendous amount of sensive responsibility. They dealt with

815
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 3: mental health.

816
00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:24,280
Speaker 10: Issues, they cope by excessively using alcohol.

817
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 3: So it's not like it was.

818
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 10: Always easy for them, I think. But the idea, but

819
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:33,320
Speaker 10: the idea of masculinity has been challenged, and the generation

820
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 10: in between, I think is struggling with the footing where

821
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 10: the younger generation is saying.

822
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:38,719
Speaker 3: We're not going to fight it so much. I'm gonna

823
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 3: if I have parents who can support me, you know, I'm.

824
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 10: Going to take this route because it seems easier.

825
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 3: Is there a little bit of enabling? Yes?

826
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 10: Is that a little bit concerning because traditionally, whether you

827
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 10: like it or not, the idea of the hunter gatherer,

828
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 10: that's evolutionary, right, and men being providers are more attractive

829
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 10: to not just the female counterparts, but necess for families.

830
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 7: To go on.

831
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,720
Speaker 10: Again, you also have women who are hunting and gathering.

832
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, which is all fine, But it just seems

833
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 2: to me that if the eighteen year olds eight of

834
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 2: nineteen forty four, if there weren't enough eighteen year olds

835
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:17,280
Speaker 2: to hit the beach at Normandy, would all be speaking German.

836
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:21,880
Speaker 2: I just think that they called it the Greatest Generation

837
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 2: for a reason. At least that's what Brocas said. If

838
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 2: doctor very much appreciate the conversation, we should do a

839
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 2: longer hour maybe and take phone calls from listeners. And

840
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 2: you know, I'm not trying to be critical. I'm just

841
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:36,799
Speaker 2: trying to ask challenging questions and I.

842
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:37,400
Speaker 5: Hope you appreciate.

843
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 3: Oh no, but these conversations are important for that reason.

844
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 3: You know, we need to have these conversations and bridge

845
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:43,959
Speaker 3: the gap.

846
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 2: Sounds great, sounds great, doctor Sanam Hafiz, founder and director

847
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:52,720
Speaker 2: of Comprehend the Mind. I'm going to ask my producer

848
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 2: to see if we can set up an hour some

849
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 2: night where we can take callers as well, because I

850
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 2: want to get a broader set of.

851
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 5: Viewpoints, just not my viewpoints here. Thank you so much.

852
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 3: Very discussion. It's a very nuanced discussion, and we should

853
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 3: have a bigger conversation.

854
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 7: I'd love that.

855
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,400
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, doctor, appreciate it, Doctor Saddam Hafiz.

856
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 2: We'll be back on night's side right after the nine

857
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:17,720
Speaker 2: o'clock news, and we will open up a conversation about

858
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 2: the MBTA's looming budget crisis.