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Speaker 1: With see Higginson Chase Brown in just about twenty minutes

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Speaker 1: on Boleger.

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Speaker 2: This is ESPN fifteen thirty.

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Speaker 1: Hopefully you're having an awesome Wednesday afternoon. We'll do some

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Speaker 1: college basketball a little bit later on this hour as well.

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Speaker 1: It is Senior Bowl Week. Senior Bowl Week in Mobile, Alabama,

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Speaker 1: which is where our guy Sam Brookhouse is from us

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Speaker 1: SUMER Sports.

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Speaker 2: Let's get right to it.

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Speaker 1: I've got some Bengals specific stuff, but before we do that,

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Speaker 1: with the Senior Bowl game coming up this weekend, the

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Speaker 1: practice is unfolding this week. It's sort of the epicenter

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Speaker 1: of the NFL universe. Give me some over arching draft

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Speaker 1: themes that are starting to develop.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the interesting thing is trying to figure

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Speaker 3: out this draft order. Earlier on last week we got

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Speaker 3: news that Ruben Bain was going to be playing. Now

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Speaker 3: he's not playing. That's a name that's in the mix.

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Speaker 3: At the top, you have what seemingly some other top

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Speaker 3: players in different positions, Fernando Mendoz at the quarterback position,

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Speaker 3: Man Sword the lane from Lsu at the cornerback position.

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Speaker 3: But this draft has not really taken form last year

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Speaker 3: in the way that at least last year's than drafts

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Speaker 3: previous has. And so what I think we're trying to

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Speaker 3: figure out is where do the guys that are playing

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Speaker 3: currently at the Senior Bowl, who are in that twenty

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Speaker 3: to thirty ten Census big Board range, how do they

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Speaker 3: stack up against those guys who aren't playing and seem

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Speaker 3: to be guys that are more locked into the top ten.

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Speaker 3: And I think that's been the biggest question. Things that

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Speaker 3: I've been quite impressed with Day one was there was

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Speaker 3: some true standouts on the offense and defensive line. I

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Speaker 3: still need a little time for the quarterbacks, particularly at

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Speaker 3: the Shrine Bowland at the Senior Bowl, to get a

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Speaker 3: little bit more comfortable with these wide receivers before I

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Speaker 3: make an evaluation on any of the wide receivers, quarterbacks,

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Speaker 3: running backs, etc. But overall, this is a very talented group.

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Speaker 3: I'm just not sure where anybody stacks up as it.

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Speaker 2: Stands right now, all right here in Cincinnati.

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Speaker 1: You know, I would imagine they're not going to just

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Speaker 1: draft defense, but they could, they could get away with it.

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Speaker 2: They've got to overhaul that unit.

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Speaker 1: Where on defense do you expect this draft class to

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Speaker 1: be at its deepest.

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Speaker 3: I'm starting to really like this in tier defensive line group,

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Speaker 3: I mean you got guys like the two guys from

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Speaker 3: Clemson here, you got Lee Hunter, who has looked extremely

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Speaker 3: well from Texas Tech. You got guys from Tennessee, across

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Speaker 3: the SEC, Alabama, ALTI, Overton. There's a great group I

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Speaker 3: found of INTI your defensive linemen. And frankly, that's the

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Speaker 3: position of need for the Bengals for a certain degree.

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Speaker 3: I mean, most of the positions on defense one could

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Speaker 3: call a position of need for the Bengals. So I

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Speaker 3: think that really is in my head, is shaping up

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Speaker 3: to be the strength of this draft line.

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Speaker 1: All Right, you mentioned the name before, Ruben Bain. Now

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Speaker 1: the Bengals have the tenth overall pick. There are a

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Speaker 1: lot of Cincinnati fans who watched the National Championship game

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Speaker 1: and watch Miami's run to the College Football Playoff title

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Speaker 1: game and said, like, that's the guy. That's the guy.

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Speaker 1: We'll see how the next few months play out. Is

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Speaker 1: there any chance that dude is there at number ten?

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Speaker 3: The hope is that people get freaked out about his

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Speaker 3: armless and some of his other measurables. I don't know

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Speaker 3: if that's going to happen. That was the skinny on

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Speaker 3: Will Campbell last year, and obviously ultimately Will Campbell goes

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Speaker 3: on to get drafted very highly and is now will

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Speaker 3: be playing in the Super Bowl. We'll be starting in

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Speaker 3: the Super Bowl. I think the what to expect from

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Speaker 3: irmyn Bain is he's an extremely violent player, and I

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Speaker 3: think people really like his ability to kind of fistfight

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Speaker 3: in the trenches, whether that's at the three tech, whether

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Speaker 3: that's at the five tech, or whether that's far out

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Speaker 3: on the edge as an edge rusher. And so I

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Speaker 3: think she's a really unique player in that we haven't

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Speaker 3: really seen someone with the physical characteristics of him, you know,

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Speaker 3: six three two eighty two ninety not necessarily going to

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Speaker 3: be an athletic freak, but someone who has shown the

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Speaker 3: ability to create pressure and pass rushing for multiple different spots.

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Speaker 3: The only player I can really think of in recent

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Speaker 3: years who was like that was a physical freak at

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Speaker 3: Aiden Hutchinson, and I think maybe his profile is similar,

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Speaker 3: but the athletics different.

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Speaker 1: Sam Brockhaus from Summer Sports is with his Frommobile Senior

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Speaker 1: Bowl happening this week. I think if you were to

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Speaker 1: ask most Bengals fans as the season played out the

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Speaker 1: college prospect that they were most interested in, the Bengals

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Speaker 1: having a chance to take in round one. Now, obviously

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Speaker 1: their final draft positioning wasn't solidified until the season came

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Speaker 1: to an end, but certainly in this part of the country,

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Speaker 1: folks watched Caleb Downs play at Ohio State and knowing

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Speaker 1: the issues the Bengals had at safety, knowing the issues

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Speaker 1: the Bengals just had on defense overall, I think a

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Speaker 1: lot of folks have locked in on him for months

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Speaker 1: on end. It has been forever since the safety has

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Speaker 1: gone that early in the draft, right.

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Speaker 2: I've seen some.

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Speaker 1: Say, look, he's a top three player in the draft.

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Speaker 1: If you're a drafting a ten and a top three

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Speaker 1: player is there. I don't know how you take him

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Speaker 1: talk about If you don't mind, just give me an

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Speaker 1: assessment of Caleb Downs as a draft prospect.

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Speaker 3: So when you look at Caleb Downs's approach, this is

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Speaker 3: a dude who's quality of basically everything. He can do everything,

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Speaker 3: and he did it. In twenty twenty five, he basically

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Speaker 3: was a glorified linebacker for the Ohio State Buckeyes. This year,

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Speaker 3: he's played deep safety, he's played near the line, and

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Speaker 3: our scouts also think he could moonlight out on the

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Speaker 3: outside at corner in some more exotic sets to the

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Speaker 3: defensive coordinator want to use him there. So I think

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Speaker 3: he has a very interesting profile as a safety that

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Speaker 3: mirrors a growing trend. In particular, this is a copycat league.

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Speaker 3: And you see Mike McDonald and the Seahawks in the

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Speaker 3: championship game in the Super Bowl, and you look across

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Speaker 3: the league, if thee Zach Orr and the Baltimore Ravens

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Speaker 3: where Mike McDonald was in the past, and you see

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Speaker 3: Kyle Hamilton as a guy who plays that type of role.

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Speaker 3: You go look with the Seahawks, they got Nick Him

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Speaker 3: and Worry and Jesse Mintter. With the Chargers they used

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Speaker 3: Derwin James in that kind of big safety guy that

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Speaker 3: can kind of do it all role and you never

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Speaker 3: know where he's going to be and he may be

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Speaker 3: rushing the passer and slightly different role, but telling No.

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Speaker 3: Hufungo with the Broncos also plays a very similar role.

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Speaker 3: I think the safety position, if you can get a

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Speaker 3: premium level of talent there is becoming a position that

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Speaker 3: people and defenses want to use, particularly as teams run

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Speaker 3: more twelve personnel. It's going to be important to get

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Speaker 3: a safety who can kind of.

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Speaker 2: Do it all there.

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Speaker 3: As a result, I do think that he's almost certainly

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Speaker 3: going to go in the first round. The problem is

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Speaker 3: is just in terms of the sheer market value of

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Speaker 3: the safety right now, you're not going to get a

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Speaker 3: ton of surplus value. It is slightly higher paid than

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Speaker 3: the linebacking position and the running back position. However, it's

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Speaker 3: not a premium position, and you can get good safeties

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Speaker 3: in free agency. We saw guys like Kevin Bayard who

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Speaker 3: have been in the league for a very long time

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Speaker 3: being All Pro this year and generate a ton of

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Speaker 3: term members. So two competing priorities. One old, the market

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Speaker 3: for safeties is not great. One new defenses are changing

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Speaker 3: to include safety more to counter twelve and thirteen personnel.

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Speaker 3: So as a result, I think a team's gonna go

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Speaker 3: ahead and take a shot at him. I is that

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Speaker 3: what's best for the Bengals. I don't necessarily know what.

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Speaker 3: We've seen them go away from Jesse Bates after his

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Speaker 3: first contract and allow him to go to the Falcons.

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Speaker 3: At the time, that seemed like the correct move given

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Speaker 3: their their cap situation with quarterbacks and wide receivers and

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Speaker 3: other premium positions coming up. You know, you look back,

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Speaker 3: perhaps that was a mistake. He hasn't been the certified

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Speaker 3: primo player on the Falcons at all, but he has

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Speaker 3: been a solid contributor. So all that to say, it's

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Speaker 3: kind of a gray area. I don't think it would

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Speaker 3: be a terrible pick if the Mingles went with Caleb Downs,

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Speaker 3: but I do think that it potentially could fall flat

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Speaker 3: just out of sheer what we call surplus value, which

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Speaker 3: is meaning you're gonna have to pay that guy a

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Speaker 3: lot and you're going to expect him to be an

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Speaker 3: all pro fairly early.

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Speaker 1: All right, So the answer to this question is probably

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Speaker 1: going to change if I ask it to you in

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Speaker 1: a month or if I ask it to you in

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Speaker 1: the middle of April. But as we sit here right now,

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Speaker 1: the process is just now starting to take shape. We're

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Speaker 1: weeks away from the combine. Free agency has to happen.

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Speaker 1: Bengals need to be active in free agency. But let's

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Speaker 1: flash ahead based on what you know. Right now, it's

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Speaker 1: night one of the draft. Bengals are on the clock

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Speaker 1: at ten. They're not going to trade the pick, Like

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Speaker 1: is there is there somebody that you're like, you know what,

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Speaker 1: rush to the podium to take that dude, based on

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Speaker 1: what you know right now.

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Speaker 3: I think it's difficult to know how it's going to

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Speaker 3: shake out. And I think with Joe Burrow's injury and

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Speaker 3: with general concerns about the offensive line, it's going to

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Speaker 3: be really hard. It's Spencer Fano or Francis Maligoa is

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Speaker 3: falling down. Both of these guys have experience at the

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Speaker 3: tackle position. No I Gooa play at the right tackle position.

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Speaker 3: Our scouts think you could play left tackle position, by

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Speaker 3: versa for Spencer Fano. I really think it's going to

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Speaker 3: be hard if an offensive lineman is there to go

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Speaker 3: to not go with you know, the third most premium

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Speaker 3: positions or most premium position in the league after the

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Speaker 3: quarterback position, just because I think that's the true core

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Speaker 3: level of talent, and I think those guys could potentially

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Speaker 3: fall just as a results of the reshuffle of the draft.

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Speaker 3: That being said, there's gonna be a ton of good

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Speaker 3: edge rushers. Fulk out of Auburn, I think, is another

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Speaker 3: name to look out for. Bain if he falls is

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Speaker 3: another one to look out for, and then Mansword Delan

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Speaker 3: also at the cornerback position, a place where the Bengals

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Speaker 3: have struggled mightily, is another guy that I would look at.

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Speaker 3: So I think tackle, cornerback, edge rusher, defensive tackle is

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Speaker 3: the four spots where the Bengals could really hit and

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Speaker 3: get good value at their pick.

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Speaker 1: Stay at tackle for me, because you know they drafted

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Speaker 1: Marius MEM's two seasons ago. So far, so good. They

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Speaker 1: still have Orlando Brown. My guess is he is still

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Speaker 1: going to be the starting left tackle in twenty twenty six.

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Speaker 1: They're gonna need the swing guy, and I think they're

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Speaker 1: gonna need somebody who ultimately is a replacement for Orlando

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Speaker 1: Brown down the road. So let's say that's not where

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Speaker 1: they go with the tenth overall pick. Is this a

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Speaker 1: deep class at tackle?

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Speaker 3: I'd say it is. It's still trying to figure it out.

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Speaker 3: But this is another trend for recent years. And you

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Speaker 3: look at you mentioned Orlando Brown. Probably want to get

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Speaker 3: in a younger guy, probably can go in a different

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Speaker 3: in a different route. The issue is, I just think

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Speaker 3: Fano and Mago are two guys who are probably the

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Speaker 3: two most talented guys in the draft, and they pop

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Speaker 3: up in the data really well. So we've seen the

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Speaker 3: Bengals be value drafters before. We saw him do it,

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Speaker 3: frankly last year with Famar Stewart. And and so that's

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Speaker 3: kind of why I think it could be a little

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Speaker 3: bit more in the mind than we really think it is.

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Speaker 3: That being said, the tax position. Right now, we've started

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Speaker 3: seeing really past the first fifteen picks, a lot of

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Speaker 3: people just be willing to invest in swing offensive linemen.

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Speaker 3: You think about a guy like Kelvin Banks last year

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Speaker 3: who ends up being a left tackle for the Saints.

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Speaker 3: A lot of people had him projected at guard. There

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Speaker 3: was a lot going on talking about maybe he plays

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Speaker 3: right tackle in another setting. They had Fuaga who ends

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Speaker 3: up being a wing tackle for them, And and so

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Speaker 3: there's a couple of guys that you can look at.

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Speaker 3: I've had my eyes on Cage Casey out of Boise State,

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Speaker 3: who I think can be a swing tackle at the

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Speaker 3: Senior Boy Boise State traditional guy red shared its first

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Speaker 3: year at Boise State, played three years now, he's in

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Speaker 3: the Senior Bowl. I think he struggled a little bit

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Speaker 3: yesterday at the left tackle position. I'm interested to see

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Speaker 3: if they move him to the right tackle or guard position.

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Speaker 3: In one on ones today during practice. However, his data

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Speaker 3: is extremely good, and that Boise State team has been

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Speaker 3: very competitive and it frankly played a pretty good level

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Speaker 3: of non conference opponent over the years. So I'd be

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Speaker 3: interested to see if that could be potentially a guy,

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Speaker 3: you know, the hundredths kind of the turn of day two,

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Speaker 3: day three, that potentially teams could target.

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Speaker 2: I one more for you. You've been generous with your time.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned Shamar Stewart and and he, you know, was

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Speaker 1: at the epicenter last April of this discussion about you know,

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Speaker 1: leaning into the traits and the and the raw physical

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Speaker 1: tools and what you see when the guys you know,

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Speaker 1: having a tape measure held up to him versus what

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Speaker 1: you see when you put the tape up. And Shamar

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Speaker 1: Stewart didn't have a lot of sex. It wasn't that

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Speaker 1: he was not disruptive. He actually was, but it kind

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Speaker 1: of felt like the Bengals leaned into the physical specimen

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Speaker 1: that he is more than the production or lack thereof

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Speaker 1: what do you what do you?

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Speaker 2: What do you make of of?

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Speaker 1: Kind of that position where it's you know what, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we value what's on tape, but we'll lean into the

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Speaker 1: traits and we're going to be a little bit more

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Speaker 1: willing to ignore what maybe a guy doesn't show on

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Speaker 1: tape versus Look, give me a guy who's making plays.

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Speaker 1: Give me a guy who's finishing plays, getting to the quarterback.

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Speaker 1: Give me a guy who's actually impacting winning more than

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Speaker 1: you know. Here's what the guy looks like when when

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Speaker 1: he's in his underwear and he's standing on a scale.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I think it's it's really interesting. There's a

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Speaker 3: couple approaches to this. Obviously, in the data you want

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Speaker 3: to get a guide who is productive. I think that's

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Speaker 3: really key, and it just check a lot of boxes.

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Speaker 3: The problem is you can ask the data scientists like myself,

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Speaker 3: the correlation be wildly over fifty percent, and that's fifty

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Speaker 3: out of one hundred. So there's still a lot of

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Speaker 3: complexity that we do not understand how to quantify. But

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Speaker 3: that makes sense if you can check boxes, that's what

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Speaker 3: you do in terms of production. One of my favorite quotes, however,

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Speaker 3: which is a guiding light in my data science research,

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Speaker 3: is from Mike Tomlin. You know, no longer the Pittsburgh

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Speaker 3: Steelers head coach. You don't have to see him anymore

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Speaker 3: in Cincinnati so maybe you can be a little bit

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Speaker 3: more accepting of this quote than you were in the

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Speaker 3: previous years. But he says that a lot of the

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Speaker 3: stuff that he sees in scouting reports and production is

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Speaker 3: actually a result of coaching, and it's the job of

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Speaker 3: the coach to take those traits and mold them into players.

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Speaker 3: We saw him do that again in again at the

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Speaker 3: wide receiver and addressing positions, and so I always try

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Speaker 3: to keep mind of that, particularly when you evaluate offensive linemen, cornerbacks,

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Speaker 3: stuff like that, because sometimes the coaches just ask them

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Speaker 3: to do stuff that they can't do, and if they

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Speaker 3: get in a new scenario, it may look better. So

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Speaker 3: as a result, I see both sides that the former player,

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Speaker 3: I also tend to believe in the traits and that

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Speaker 3: it's the coach's job to put them in the position

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Speaker 3: to succeed, and the player's job to get their body

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Speaker 3: ready for the season and develop their technique and develop

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Speaker 3: their skills. So I kind of see both sides. I

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Speaker 3: like to use analytics as kind of the checkboxes, especially

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Speaker 3: when it comes to things that you know are threshold

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Speaker 3: statistics and stuff like this, But at the same time,

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Speaker 3: I think you have to believe in the traits, and

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Speaker 3: you have to kind of take the context away, take

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Speaker 3: the team that they were on a way and really

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Speaker 3: evaluate the player as they are themselves.

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Speaker 1: Well said, enjoy Mobile. Can't thank you enough for the time.

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Speaker 1: We'll check out sumer sports dot com. Love having you, Sam,

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you so much.

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Speaker 1: Make sure you check out Sumer sports dot com. That's

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Speaker 1: s U M E R Sports dot com. Sam joining

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Speaker 1: us from the Senior Bowl in Mobile. We'll be joined

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Speaker 1: next by t Higgins and Chase Brown. This is ESPN

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Speaker 1: fIF Team thirty, Cincinnati Sports Station