WEBVTT - 1-5-26 Sloan with Richard Harrison

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<v Speaker 1>Going to be an American idiot not be twenty twenty six,

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<v Speaker 1>Gott's back with you on seven hundred ww had I

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<v Speaker 1>hope you had an enjoyable one, be it Christmas, New

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<v Speaker 1>Year's or whatever the hell does you do?

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<v Speaker 2>Get some downtime for you, that's good. One of the

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<v Speaker 2>things you don't think about, and so it's a good

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<v Speaker 2>time to, I don't know, touch on these things this

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<v Speaker 2>time of year, when it slows down a little bit,

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<v Speaker 2>to put your little thinking hat on, would be the

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<v Speaker 2>state of our water supply. We often don't think about that.

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<v Speaker 2>Right you turn your tap on, you have a glass

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<v Speaker 2>of water, you don't make, boil some pasta, something along

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<v Speaker 2>those lines wherever, you don't think too much about it.

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<v Speaker 2>As we know, for years now we have started to

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<v Speaker 2>learn more and more about microplastics that are in our

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<v Speaker 2>water system. And of course enough of that in you

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<v Speaker 2>will kill you because it's a known carcinogen. So what

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<v Speaker 2>is the state of our water supply here in the

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<v Speaker 2>Buckeye States. There's been a lot with the EPA that's

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<v Speaker 2>been made and special federally Ohio EPN or Mike and

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<v Speaker 2>Whine did this a few years to get a study

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<v Speaker 2>to find out where the stuff is coming from. Try

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<v Speaker 2>and figure out the source. And if you look at

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<v Speaker 2>a map of our local water treatment plants, we have

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<v Speaker 2>two big ones here. We have the Richard Mill or

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<v Speaker 2>Frank Harris Senior Treatment Plant that's the source of about

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<v Speaker 2>oh ninety percent of our water in Cincinnati. And then

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<v Speaker 2>the other one is the Cincinnati water Works facility I

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<v Speaker 2>think up in the in I want to say Fairfield

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<v Speaker 2>area too as well, that supplies some drinking water. But

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know much about that other than I turned

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<v Speaker 2>the foster to the shower head on and stuff comes out,

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<v Speaker 2>and I hope it's okay to drink and use. The

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<v Speaker 2>guy that could tell me not to do that is

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<v Speaker 2>Richard Harrison. He's the executive director and chief engineer for

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<v Speaker 2>the Ohio River Valley Water Sanitation Commission known as ARONSCO. Richard,

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<v Speaker 2>welcome back.

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<v Speaker 3>To the show. Good to have you. Thank you, Scott.

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<v Speaker 3>I appreciate you inviting me to join you today.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I know this is well. I mean, I guess

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<v Speaker 2>what comes out of the faucet's outside of your scope

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<v Speaker 2>because you do more with intake in the waterways. But

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<v Speaker 2>that's where this thing starts. If we can stop this

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<v Speaker 2>stuff from getting into the water. It's a more cost

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<v Speaker 2>effective solution than trying to treat it to the end.

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<v Speaker 2>It's always the case is whether it's this or healthcare

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<v Speaker 2>or anything else for that matter. But let's start with

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<v Speaker 2>the PFA saying what do we need to know about this,

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<v Speaker 2>where does it come from, and what are the lengths

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<v Speaker 2>to our health?

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<v Speaker 3>Well. PFASs is a very complex group of chemicals and

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<v Speaker 3>the technical name for them is per and polyplori alcohol sentences.

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<v Speaker 3>As you correctly noted, p FOSS is how they are

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<v Speaker 3>known through their acronym, and they are a group of

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<v Speaker 3>man made chemicals that are found everywhere. They're applied to

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<v Speaker 3>many consumer goods to make them waterproof, stain resistant, or

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<v Speaker 3>non stick. They're also used in products like cosmetics, fast

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<v Speaker 3>food packaging, and types of firefighting foam, specifically something called

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<v Speaker 3>a triple F so they're essentially everywhere. They're very long

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<v Speaker 3>lasting chemicals by design, their man made chemicals, and that

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<v Speaker 3>was the attraction to them back in the forties when

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<v Speaker 3>these chemicals were identified and created and put together because

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<v Speaker 3>of those tendencies that they last an extensive period of time.

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<v Speaker 3>It can take several years for them the break down

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<v Speaker 3>within our bodies. That's why there's also culturvel chemicals.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, so what happens is kind of like a lead

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<v Speaker 2>poisoning for example. We know your body doesn't create a

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<v Speaker 2>waste product for it. It accumulates, So the more you're

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<v Speaker 2>exposed to it, the more it builds up in your body.

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<v Speaker 3>Absolutely, And because they can come from from anywhere, many

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<v Speaker 3>many pathways, and of course we're talking about drinking the

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<v Speaker 3>water as one of those pathways, but certainly they come

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<v Speaker 3>from other pathways air, food products, again, clothing. So it's

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<v Speaker 3>a challenge.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, your job is tasked with trying to prevent it

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<v Speaker 2>from getting in the drinking water supply in the first place.

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<v Speaker 3>How's that going, Well, maybe we can step back and

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<v Speaker 3>just talk about the process. So USCPA has invested a

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<v Speaker 3>lot of resources in trying to determine how to remove

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<v Speaker 3>these chemicals from many different sources. And we're talking about

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<v Speaker 3>drinking water. So as we talk about the rivers and waters,

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<v Speaker 3>what we work with within the Higher Basin, of course,

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<v Speaker 3>the Higher River is the largest body of water. They're

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<v Speaker 3>approaching this from several different directions. Of course, drinking water

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<v Speaker 3>is one which we're talking about the day, but also

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<v Speaker 3>there's something called the Clean Water Act. So we're talking

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<v Speaker 3>about the Safe Drinking Water Act, and we talk about

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<v Speaker 3>maximum contaminate levels and regulations for utilities. But also when

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<v Speaker 3>you talk about the Clean Water Act, you're talking about

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<v Speaker 3>the sources of water, and we talk about making water fishable, swimmable,

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<v Speaker 3>and drinkable. And that's ensuring that the higher river and

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<v Speaker 3>other surface waters are suitable for fish being able to

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<v Speaker 3>live and survive bugs, macro vertebrates, but also for human

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<v Speaker 3>health we consume fish, and also the utilities have to

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<v Speaker 3>have a water supply that is safe. So that's a

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<v Speaker 3>whole other area. We're expecting to have draft criteria for

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<v Speaker 3>the for the surface waters for human health later this summer,

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<v Speaker 3>and that's really when Orsenko we'll get more involved with

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<v Speaker 3>our partner states to really figure out what's next.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, So should people be freaking out about this?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's been it's you said, it's been the

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<v Speaker 2>better ren since the forties, and it's taken a while

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<v Speaker 2>for getting our drinking water. And it's probably a case

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<v Speaker 2>where our equipment and our testing abilities have gotten much

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<v Speaker 2>much better, more granular, if you will, And so we're

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<v Speaker 2>now we're seeing stuff we never could see before. But

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<v Speaker 2>we know that this is a known cursin egen, that

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<v Speaker 2>it causes some bad things to happen within the human body,

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<v Speaker 2>and obviously we want to prevent that as well. But

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<v Speaker 2>how concerned should we be? Do you drink out of

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<v Speaker 2>the water the water you're talking about. You turning your

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<v Speaker 2>faucet and you're drinking tap? Are you doing doing bottle?

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<v Speaker 3>Richard? I do tap so. I used to be the

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<v Speaker 3>vice president of engineering, production and Distribution for North Kentucky

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<v Speaker 3>Water District, one of the large utility on the High River,

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<v Speaker 3>and we're very fortunate that Kentucky Water District, then, of

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<v Speaker 3>course greater to say water works for the majority of

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<v Speaker 3>their water, adds granuar acivated carbon treatments to their process

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<v Speaker 3>and that has been shown to be very effective at

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<v Speaker 3>removing carbon. But I drink tap water. I feel very

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<v Speaker 3>comfortable with it. A lot of discussion here is about

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<v Speaker 3>overall risk. These compounds are everywhere. I'm very proud to

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<v Speaker 3>be part of a water resource sector that works so

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<v Speaker 3>hard to protect our drinking water supply in our river.

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<v Speaker 3>So I think it's a matter of risk and balancing

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<v Speaker 3>risk and there's a lot we don't know. There are

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<v Speaker 3>over let's see here, let me make sure I give

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<v Speaker 3>you the right information. But we're talking about over one

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<v Speaker 3>hundred and sixty million chemicals are known through the World

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<v Speaker 3>Health Organization. About eighty five thousand of these ESCPA lists

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<v Speaker 3>on them OREO substances through the Toxic Subsics Control Act.

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<v Speaker 3>There are over four thousand p fos chemicals and less

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<v Speaker 3>than one hundred are regulated through MCL. So this is

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<v Speaker 3>extremely complex. Well, you covered it very well when you

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<v Speaker 3>mentioned we're learning more. We now know that through EPA

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<v Speaker 3>toxicity studies that there's actually more pf husts in rainwater

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<v Speaker 3>than is considered to be protective in terms of human health.

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<v Speaker 3>And so this is very complex. So there's a lot

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<v Speaker 3>we don't know, and it's a matter of just balancing risk.

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<v Speaker 3>We all pay for this response through as customers, so

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<v Speaker 3>we're customers of wonderful water utilities, wastewater utilities, and it's

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<v Speaker 3>just a matter of how much investment goes into this

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<v Speaker 3>and benefit costs ratios. So this is very complex, but

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<v Speaker 3>it's certainly not something I'm losing freepover. But it is

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<v Speaker 3>important that we continue to understand these chemicals and remove

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<v Speaker 3>them that the sources if possible.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, that's the key, because it goes in the rain water,

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<v Speaker 2>then that goes to water our crops, the food that

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<v Speaker 2>we eat goes into our drinking water through groundwater, through

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<v Speaker 2>the rivers and streams, et cetera, et cetera. Richard Harrison,

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<v Speaker 2>Executive Director and Chief Engineer for the Ohio River Valley

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<v Speaker 2>Water Sanitation Commission ARONSCO is what they're called. These are

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<v Speaker 2>the folks who test our drinking water. And there's concern

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<v Speaker 2>over something called pfoss p fas, and those are basically

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<v Speaker 2>microplastics that accumulate in your body. So plastics do break

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<v Speaker 2>down to some degree that gets in the drinking water

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<v Speaker 2>and it's so fine that the filtration systems in the

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<v Speaker 2>carbon it doesn't catch that, and it builds up in

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<v Speaker 2>your body over time, and it's a known carcinogen. We

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<v Speaker 2>don't know the long term I mean, I guess we

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<v Speaker 2>do know the long long term effects. But that is

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<v Speaker 2>the current target now for water treatment people like Richard,

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<v Speaker 2>to try and eliminate that from our water system, if

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<v Speaker 2>that's indeed possible. Now, Ohhio, we're still pretty good considering

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<v Speaker 2>other states, New Jersey probably manufacturing and military, Michigan more

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<v Speaker 2>automotive manufacturing, And therefore you have a lot of chemicals

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<v Speaker 2>that are in the groundwater supply, which is why they're

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<v Speaker 2>seeing levels that are at the top. Here in Ohio

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<v Speaker 2>not as much. However, I will say that I was

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<v Speaker 2>looking at two of our bigger plants here, the Harris

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<v Speaker 2>Treatment Plant, to provides about ninety percent of Cincinnati's water.

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<v Speaker 2>They didn't find any measurable levels there, But if you

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<v Speaker 2>go up to Fairfield, the plant there said they were

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<v Speaker 2>almost in the danger zone. It's really not that far

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<v Speaker 2>away as far as distance goes. But how do you

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<v Speaker 2>describe the disparity one plant showing no results the other

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<v Speaker 2>one The Neil's moving pretty.

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<v Speaker 3>Well well, Scott. You talked a little bit earlier in

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<v Speaker 3>our conversation about the technology and the level of detections.

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<v Speaker 3>What I find fascinating is through uscpa's research, and to

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<v Speaker 3>be clear, or Senko does not work in the toxicology

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<v Speaker 3>end of things. We work in the monitoring response that skills.

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<v Speaker 3>I spoke with you last year about our response to

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<v Speaker 3>these Palestine chemical train derailment still and so our area

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<v Speaker 3>is working on the water quality. And one of the

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<v Speaker 3>challenges we have is now UCPA has determined that the

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<v Speaker 3>levels of these are in the parts per quadruleon and

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<v Speaker 3>the technology to actually measure these are in the parts

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<v Speaker 3>for trillium. So we're trying to find these and levels

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<v Speaker 3>that are a thousand times more stringent then we can

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<v Speaker 3>actually measure them. So it is something that is a challenge,

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<v Speaker 3>and so when you talk about disparities between creatent plants,

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<v Speaker 3>it's important to understand that when USCPA puts together these

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<v Speaker 3>types of regulations, they're looking at a lifetime risk and

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<v Speaker 3>it's based upon an average person around one hundred fifty pounds,

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<v Speaker 3>which I certainly aim over that, but they're looking at

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<v Speaker 3>consuming a half gallon of water every day over seventy

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<v Speaker 3>years and a one in a million increase in cancer risk.

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<v Speaker 3>And we're very fort to have this type of work

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<v Speaker 3>to protect us from a risk standpoint, But it is

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<v Speaker 3>important to understand what goes into these types of calculations,

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<v Speaker 3>and they are determined in a way to be very

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<v Speaker 3>protective of human health. So the variations, you know, we're

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<v Speaker 3>talking about parts port trillion. It's really difficult to even

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<v Speaker 3>measure these below four parts petrillium in terms of accuracy,

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<v Speaker 3>and so this is an evolving science and we're only

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<v Speaker 3>talking about a handful out of four thousand pfus chemicals.

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<v Speaker 3>So it's something that there'll be more work in this.

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<v Speaker 3>USCPA every five years does what they call a contaminant

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<v Speaker 3>monitoring process the Safe Drinking Water Act, and there's over

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<v Speaker 3>twenty of these being looked at in the current one.

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<v Speaker 3>So this is an ongoing effort.

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<v Speaker 2>Richard Harrison, what may I ask, are we just trying

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<v Speaker 2>to scare people the compliance and you're telling me the

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<v Speaker 2>equipment we have can't even measure the great greatest detail

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<v Speaker 2>of what the stuff is in our bodies. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>let's face it, the air that we breathe, the milk

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<v Speaker 2>that we drink, the food we consume, it all has

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<v Speaker 2>something toxic in it. I mean, you know, there's arsenic

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<v Speaker 2>in our food, but it's trace amounts. There's ratpoop in

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<v Speaker 2>your cheerios, but it's trace amounts. Is this any different?

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<v Speaker 3>I'm very proud to work in a field that is

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<v Speaker 3>so protective. USPA follows the lull to say Drinking Water

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<v Speaker 3>Act when they put this together, I'm not the right

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<v Speaker 3>person to talk about toxic ecology. I will say that

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<v Speaker 3>risk is a question and it's something that we have

0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:39.679
<v Speaker 3>to look at. They're doing their job, they're looking at

0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:42.440
<v Speaker 3>the science as where they's drinking water. But as you say,

0:12:42.440 --> 0:12:46.679
<v Speaker 3>there's risk from everything, and so just the water infrastructure.

0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:48.480
<v Speaker 3>You know, I always like to say every dollar we

0:12:48.559 --> 0:12:53.959
<v Speaker 3>invest as customers in a new regulation makes it harder

0:12:54.000 --> 0:12:56.600
<v Speaker 3>to put that dollar in replacement of water botts. And

0:12:56.640 --> 0:13:00.559
<v Speaker 3>so it's something that is very complex and we all

0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:02.719
<v Speaker 3>have to be engaged in this. We have to understand it.

0:13:03.120 --> 0:13:06.080
<v Speaker 3>We're the ones that are paying for this through our

0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:09.560
<v Speaker 3>rates as customers and knowing working with our utilities. We're

0:13:09.600 --> 0:13:12.959
<v Speaker 3>lucky to have incredible drinking water utilities in our areas.

0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:16.640
<v Speaker 3>So I'm not going to touch a political question. That's

0:13:16.640 --> 0:13:19.280
<v Speaker 3>not where our Senko gets involved. But it's a fair

0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:23.040
<v Speaker 3>question to talk about the overall risk and just.

0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:25.640
<v Speaker 2>Balancing that because you hear this stuff and people usually

0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:28.360
<v Speaker 2>it's new parents start freaking out about this stuff and

0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:31.479
<v Speaker 2>they start washing there. You know, they have their dishwasher

0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:35.520
<v Speaker 2>water coming out of a giant bottle of Desanni and

0:13:35.559 --> 0:13:39.040
<v Speaker 2>it's cost prohibitive and everything else. If I use like

0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:41.760
<v Speaker 2>a Britta filter on top of my tap water. Does

0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:44.400
<v Speaker 2>a Brita filter take this stuff out or reverse osmosis?

0:13:45.679 --> 0:13:48.320
<v Speaker 3>Well, I will talk about Britta because it's a brand name,

0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:52.040
<v Speaker 3>but I will say that there are filters that can

0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:54.800
<v Speaker 3>be added. If folks want to do that, they can.

0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:59.760
<v Speaker 3>They can certainly contact their doctors if if they're concerned

0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:03.000
<v Speaker 3>about this. So keep in mind that the FDA currently

0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:07.800
<v Speaker 3>is not regulating bottle of water for pifos, and so

0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:13.720
<v Speaker 3>this is very complex. I would I would just talk

0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:16.280
<v Speaker 3>to folks and which I'm doing, and and just comment

0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:20.280
<v Speaker 3>that it's all of it's all about balance. It's understanding

0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:22.880
<v Speaker 3>how complex this is. And the U s c p

0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:25.440
<v Speaker 3>A is doing their job, or State EPAS, Ohio EPA,

0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:29.720
<v Speaker 3>Tuckt Divisional Water, Indiana Department Environment Management, and they all

0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:32.800
<v Speaker 3>work within this area. They're they're working as hard as

0:14:32.800 --> 0:14:34.600
<v Speaker 3>they can on this, and this is complex and it's

0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:40.680
<v Speaker 3>all about managing risk in safety and following the laws

0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:44.400
<v Speaker 3>that that we we have approved through Congress, Save Drinking

0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:46.840
<v Speaker 3>Water Act, Clean Water Acting. So that's what us e

0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:48.440
<v Speaker 3>PA is trying to do. They would have they would

0:14:48.440 --> 0:14:50.560
<v Speaker 3>be the ones to talk to you about all the

0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:53.600
<v Speaker 3>science behind it. This is very complex Scott.

0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:56.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I mean if if you're so inclined, you know,

0:14:56.120 --> 0:14:57.760
<v Speaker 2>you could do a filter system. I use the word

0:14:57.800 --> 0:14:59.840
<v Speaker 2>Britta because it's like clean X or jell O. It's

0:14:59.880 --> 0:15:03.320
<v Speaker 2>a it's a brand name that's become common. And I

0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:06.600
<v Speaker 2>look at this and go, okay, look at the risk.

0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:08.520
<v Speaker 2>Listen to what you had to say. You know you're

0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:11.120
<v Speaker 2>drinking the tap water. You see this stuff under a microscope.

0:15:11.160 --> 0:15:11.600
<v Speaker 3>We don't.

0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:13.760
<v Speaker 2>And if it's good enough for you, it's good enough

0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:16.080
<v Speaker 2>for me. I sleep well knowing that the drinking water

0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:18.920
<v Speaker 2>is being policed by yourself, people like yourself, and you're

0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:20.680
<v Speaker 2>more at the source end. We talked during the East

0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:23.840
<v Speaker 2>Palestine disaster about the plume that was traveling down the

0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:26.080
<v Speaker 2>Ohio River. You guys had it all timed out, saying, yah,

0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:28.640
<v Speaker 2>we're tracking it. Everything's good, it moved out, it dissipated,

0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:32.120
<v Speaker 2>and all is well at this point too. So if

0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:34.240
<v Speaker 2>you want to lose sleep over this and get down

0:15:34.240 --> 0:15:36.440
<v Speaker 2>a rabbit hole, I'm sure there's stuff online that'll scare

0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:39.320
<v Speaker 2>the hell out of you. However, it is safe to

0:15:39.360 --> 0:15:42.640
<v Speaker 2>say that most of us aren't one hundred and fifty pounds.

0:15:42.960 --> 0:15:44.320
<v Speaker 2>I would like to talk next to you. If you

0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:46.240
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna have Richard as a guy who sets the

0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:49.040
<v Speaker 2>average weight for Americans because I think he's a little drunk.

0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:55.600
<v Speaker 3>Well that's that's the science behind develop these criterias. But

0:15:56.040 --> 0:15:58.160
<v Speaker 3>I'm not near one hundred and fifty pounds.

0:15:58.160 --> 0:16:01.520
<v Speaker 2>I just I just flew and there are maybe two

0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:03.160
<v Speaker 2>people on the plane that were one hundred and fifty

0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:07.320
<v Speaker 2>pounds and I included the toddlers. So yeah, well, I

0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:09.200
<v Speaker 2>mean it's true. So what you're saying is if you

0:16:09.240 --> 0:16:12.120
<v Speaker 2>weigh more, then you can absorb, you can absorb more

0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:14.160
<v Speaker 2>p foss or is that true.

0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:18.920
<v Speaker 3>Or I'm not gonna really say that. What I'm saying

0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:25.200
<v Speaker 3>is that the background that USCPA uses to complete their studies,

0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:28.240
<v Speaker 3>and so it's important to understand when criteria put out,

0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:34.680
<v Speaker 3>it's based on a specific methodology that they follow from

0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:35.520
<v Speaker 3>a science basis.

0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:37.440
<v Speaker 2>I was trying to make an excuse and say, see

0:16:37.440 --> 0:16:38.800
<v Speaker 2>that's the upside to obesity.

0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:39.280
<v Speaker 3>You can.

0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:44.120
<v Speaker 2>Richard Harrison, the executive Director, is the chief engineer at

0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:48.040
<v Speaker 2>the Ohio River Valley Water Sanitation Commission. He's the guy

0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:51.640
<v Speaker 2>policing our water sources in and around Ohio and elsewhere.

0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:53.520
<v Speaker 2>And Richard I appreciate you coming on the show. I

0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:55.800
<v Speaker 2>know I didn't want you talking out over your skis

0:16:55.800 --> 0:16:57.320
<v Speaker 2>a little bit there, and I asked you some questions

0:16:57.320 --> 0:16:59.160
<v Speaker 2>that were outside of your scope. But I appreciate coming

0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:01.600
<v Speaker 2>on and trying to give us a basic understanding whether

0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:03.240
<v Speaker 2>or not our drinking water is safe. And it sounds

0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:03.680
<v Speaker 2>like it is.

0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:06.879
<v Speaker 3>Always a pleasure. Scott the best play, take care, Thank.

0:17:06.720 --> 0:17:08.840
<v Speaker 2>You once again, and we've got a news update in

0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:11.840
<v Speaker 2>just minutes. Here our first mental health Monday update. Julie

0:17:11.880 --> 0:17:14.160
<v Speaker 2>hattersh Hear's next Scott's loan seven hundred Deputy Other