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Speaker 1: Going to be an American idiot not be twenty twenty six,

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Speaker 1: Gott's back with you on seven hundred ww had I

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Speaker 1: hope you had an enjoyable one, be it Christmas, New

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Speaker 1: Year's or whatever the hell does you do?

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Speaker 2: Get some downtime for you, that's good. One of the

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Speaker 2: things you don't think about, and so it's a good

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Speaker 2: time to, I don't know, touch on these things this

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Speaker 2: time of year, when it slows down a little bit,

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Speaker 2: to put your little thinking hat on, would be the

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Speaker 2: state of our water supply. We often don't think about that.

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Speaker 2: Right you turn your tap on, you have a glass

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Speaker 2: of water, you don't make, boil some pasta, something along

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Speaker 2: those lines wherever, you don't think too much about it.

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Speaker 2: As we know, for years now we have started to

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Speaker 2: learn more and more about microplastics that are in our

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Speaker 2: water system. And of course enough of that in you

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Speaker 2: will kill you because it's a known carcinogen. So what

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Speaker 2: is the state of our water supply here in the

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Speaker 2: Buckeye States. There's been a lot with the EPA that's

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Speaker 2: been made and special federally Ohio EPN or Mike and

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Speaker 2: Whine did this a few years to get a study

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Speaker 2: to find out where the stuff is coming from. Try

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Speaker 2: and figure out the source. And if you look at

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Speaker 2: a map of our local water treatment plants, we have

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Speaker 2: two big ones here. We have the Richard Mill or

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Speaker 2: Frank Harris Senior Treatment Plant that's the source of about

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Speaker 2: oh ninety percent of our water in Cincinnati. And then

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Speaker 2: the other one is the Cincinnati water Works facility I

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Speaker 2: think up in the in I want to say Fairfield

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Speaker 2: area too as well, that supplies some drinking water. But

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Speaker 2: I don't know much about that other than I turned

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Speaker 2: the foster to the shower head on and stuff comes out,

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Speaker 2: and I hope it's okay to drink and use. The

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Speaker 2: guy that could tell me not to do that is

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Speaker 2: Richard Harrison. He's the executive director and chief engineer for

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Speaker 2: the Ohio River Valley Water Sanitation Commission known as ARONSCO. Richard,

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Speaker 2: welcome back.

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Speaker 3: To the show. Good to have you. Thank you, Scott.

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Speaker 3: I appreciate you inviting me to join you today.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I know this is well. I mean, I guess

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Speaker 2: what comes out of the faucet's outside of your scope

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Speaker 2: because you do more with intake in the waterways. But

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Speaker 2: that's where this thing starts. If we can stop this

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Speaker 2: stuff from getting into the water. It's a more cost

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Speaker 2: effective solution than trying to treat it to the end.

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Speaker 2: It's always the case is whether it's this or healthcare

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Speaker 2: or anything else for that matter. But let's start with

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Speaker 2: the PFA saying what do we need to know about this,

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Speaker 2: where does it come from, and what are the lengths

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Speaker 2: to our health?

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Speaker 3: Well. PFASs is a very complex group of chemicals and

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Speaker 3: the technical name for them is per and polyplori alcohol sentences.

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Speaker 3: As you correctly noted, p FOSS is how they are

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Speaker 3: known through their acronym, and they are a group of

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Speaker 3: man made chemicals that are found everywhere. They're applied to

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Speaker 3: many consumer goods to make them waterproof, stain resistant, or

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Speaker 3: non stick. They're also used in products like cosmetics, fast

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Speaker 3: food packaging, and types of firefighting foam, specifically something called

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Speaker 3: a triple F so they're essentially everywhere. They're very long

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Speaker 3: lasting chemicals by design, their man made chemicals, and that

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Speaker 3: was the attraction to them back in the forties when

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Speaker 3: these chemicals were identified and created and put together because

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Speaker 3: of those tendencies that they last an extensive period of time.

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Speaker 3: It can take several years for them the break down

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Speaker 3: within our bodies. That's why there's also culturvel chemicals.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so what happens is kind of like a lead

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Speaker 2: poisoning for example. We know your body doesn't create a

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Speaker 2: waste product for it. It accumulates, So the more you're

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Speaker 2: exposed to it, the more it builds up in your body.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, And because they can come from from anywhere, many

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Speaker 3: many pathways, and of course we're talking about drinking the

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Speaker 3: water as one of those pathways, but certainly they come

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Speaker 3: from other pathways air, food products, again, clothing. So it's

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Speaker 3: a challenge.

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Speaker 2: Well, your job is tasked with trying to prevent it

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Speaker 2: from getting in the drinking water supply in the first place.

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Speaker 3: How's that going, Well, maybe we can step back and

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Speaker 3: just talk about the process. So USCPA has invested a

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Speaker 3: lot of resources in trying to determine how to remove

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Speaker 3: these chemicals from many different sources. And we're talking about

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Speaker 3: drinking water. So as we talk about the rivers and waters,

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Speaker 3: what we work with within the Higher Basin, of course,

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Speaker 3: the Higher River is the largest body of water. They're

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Speaker 3: approaching this from several different directions. Of course, drinking water

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Speaker 3: is one which we're talking about the day, but also

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Speaker 3: there's something called the Clean Water Act. So we're talking

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Speaker 3: about the Safe Drinking Water Act, and we talk about

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Speaker 3: maximum contaminate levels and regulations for utilities. But also when

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Speaker 3: you talk about the Clean Water Act, you're talking about

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Speaker 3: the sources of water, and we talk about making water fishable, swimmable,

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Speaker 3: and drinkable. And that's ensuring that the higher river and

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Speaker 3: other surface waters are suitable for fish being able to

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Speaker 3: live and survive bugs, macro vertebrates, but also for human

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Speaker 3: health we consume fish, and also the utilities have to

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Speaker 3: have a water supply that is safe. So that's a

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Speaker 3: whole other area. We're expecting to have draft criteria for

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Speaker 3: the for the surface waters for human health later this summer,

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Speaker 3: and that's really when Orsenko we'll get more involved with

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Speaker 3: our partner states to really figure out what's next.

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Speaker 2: All right, So should people be freaking out about this?

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's been it's you said, it's been the

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Speaker 2: better ren since the forties, and it's taken a while

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Speaker 2: for getting our drinking water. And it's probably a case

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Speaker 2: where our equipment and our testing abilities have gotten much

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Speaker 2: much better, more granular, if you will, And so we're

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Speaker 2: now we're seeing stuff we never could see before. But

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Speaker 2: we know that this is a known cursin egen, that

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Speaker 2: it causes some bad things to happen within the human body,

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Speaker 2: and obviously we want to prevent that as well. But

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Speaker 2: how concerned should we be? Do you drink out of

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Speaker 2: the water the water you're talking about. You turning your

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Speaker 2: faucet and you're drinking tap? Are you doing doing bottle?

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Speaker 3: Richard? I do tap so. I used to be the

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Speaker 3: vice president of engineering, production and Distribution for North Kentucky

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Speaker 3: Water District, one of the large utility on the High River,

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Speaker 3: and we're very fortunate that Kentucky Water District, then, of

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Speaker 3: course greater to say water works for the majority of

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Speaker 3: their water, adds granuar acivated carbon treatments to their process

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Speaker 3: and that has been shown to be very effective at

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Speaker 3: removing carbon. But I drink tap water. I feel very

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Speaker 3: comfortable with it. A lot of discussion here is about

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Speaker 3: overall risk. These compounds are everywhere. I'm very proud to

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Speaker 3: be part of a water resource sector that works so

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Speaker 3: hard to protect our drinking water supply in our river.

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Speaker 3: So I think it's a matter of risk and balancing

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Speaker 3: risk and there's a lot we don't know. There are

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Speaker 3: over let's see here, let me make sure I give

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Speaker 3: you the right information. But we're talking about over one

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Speaker 3: hundred and sixty million chemicals are known through the World

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Speaker 3: Health Organization. About eighty five thousand of these ESCPA lists

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Speaker 3: on them OREO substances through the Toxic Subsics Control Act.

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Speaker 3: There are over four thousand p fos chemicals and less

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Speaker 3: than one hundred are regulated through MCL. So this is

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Speaker 3: extremely complex. Well, you covered it very well when you

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Speaker 3: mentioned we're learning more. We now know that through EPA

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Speaker 3: toxicity studies that there's actually more pf husts in rainwater

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Speaker 3: than is considered to be protective in terms of human health.

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Speaker 3: And so this is very complex. So there's a lot

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Speaker 3: we don't know, and it's a matter of just balancing risk.

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Speaker 3: We all pay for this response through as customers, so

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Speaker 3: we're customers of wonderful water utilities, wastewater utilities, and it's

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Speaker 3: just a matter of how much investment goes into this

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Speaker 3: and benefit costs ratios. So this is very complex, but

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Speaker 3: it's certainly not something I'm losing freepover. But it is

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Speaker 3: important that we continue to understand these chemicals and remove

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Speaker 3: them that the sources if possible.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's the key, because it goes in the rain water,

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Speaker 2: then that goes to water our crops, the food that

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Speaker 2: we eat goes into our drinking water through groundwater, through

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Speaker 2: the rivers and streams, et cetera, et cetera. Richard Harrison,

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Speaker 2: Executive Director and Chief Engineer for the Ohio River Valley

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Speaker 2: Water Sanitation Commission ARONSCO is what they're called. These are

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Speaker 2: the folks who test our drinking water. And there's concern

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Speaker 2: over something called pfoss p fas, and those are basically

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Speaker 2: microplastics that accumulate in your body. So plastics do break

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Speaker 2: down to some degree that gets in the drinking water

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Speaker 2: and it's so fine that the filtration systems in the

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Speaker 2: carbon it doesn't catch that, and it builds up in

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Speaker 2: your body over time, and it's a known carcinogen. We

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Speaker 2: don't know the long term I mean, I guess we

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Speaker 2: do know the long long term effects. But that is

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Speaker 2: the current target now for water treatment people like Richard,

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Speaker 2: to try and eliminate that from our water system, if

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Speaker 2: that's indeed possible. Now, Ohhio, we're still pretty good considering

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Speaker 2: other states, New Jersey probably manufacturing and military, Michigan more

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Speaker 2: automotive manufacturing, And therefore you have a lot of chemicals

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Speaker 2: that are in the groundwater supply, which is why they're

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Speaker 2: seeing levels that are at the top. Here in Ohio

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Speaker 2: not as much. However, I will say that I was

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Speaker 2: looking at two of our bigger plants here, the Harris

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Speaker 2: Treatment Plant, to provides about ninety percent of Cincinnati's water.

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Speaker 2: They didn't find any measurable levels there, But if you

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Speaker 2: go up to Fairfield, the plant there said they were

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Speaker 2: almost in the danger zone. It's really not that far

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Speaker 2: away as far as distance goes. But how do you

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Speaker 2: describe the disparity one plant showing no results the other

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Speaker 2: one The Neil's moving pretty.

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Speaker 3: Well well, Scott. You talked a little bit earlier in

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Speaker 3: our conversation about the technology and the level of detections.

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Speaker 3: What I find fascinating is through uscpa's research, and to

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Speaker 3: be clear, or Senko does not work in the toxicology

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Speaker 3: end of things. We work in the monitoring response that skills.

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Speaker 3: I spoke with you last year about our response to

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Speaker 3: these Palestine chemical train derailment still and so our area

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Speaker 3: is working on the water quality. And one of the

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Speaker 3: challenges we have is now UCPA has determined that the

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Speaker 3: levels of these are in the parts per quadruleon and

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Speaker 3: the technology to actually measure these are in the parts

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Speaker 3: for trillium. So we're trying to find these and levels

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Speaker 3: that are a thousand times more stringent then we can

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Speaker 3: actually measure them. So it is something that is a challenge,

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Speaker 3: and so when you talk about disparities between creatent plants,

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Speaker 3: it's important to understand that when USCPA puts together these

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Speaker 3: types of regulations, they're looking at a lifetime risk and

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Speaker 3: it's based upon an average person around one hundred fifty pounds,

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Speaker 3: which I certainly aim over that, but they're looking at

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Speaker 3: consuming a half gallon of water every day over seventy

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Speaker 3: years and a one in a million increase in cancer risk.

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Speaker 3: And we're very fort to have this type of work

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Speaker 3: to protect us from a risk standpoint, But it is

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Speaker 3: important to understand what goes into these types of calculations,

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Speaker 3: and they are determined in a way to be very

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Speaker 3: protective of human health. So the variations, you know, we're

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Speaker 3: talking about parts port trillion. It's really difficult to even

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Speaker 3: measure these below four parts petrillium in terms of accuracy,

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Speaker 3: and so this is an evolving science and we're only

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Speaker 3: talking about a handful out of four thousand pfus chemicals.

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Speaker 3: So it's something that there'll be more work in this.

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Speaker 3: USCPA every five years does what they call a contaminant

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Speaker 3: monitoring process the Safe Drinking Water Act, and there's over

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Speaker 3: twenty of these being looked at in the current one.

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Speaker 3: So this is an ongoing effort.

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Speaker 2: Richard Harrison, what may I ask, are we just trying

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Speaker 2: to scare people the compliance and you're telling me the

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Speaker 2: equipment we have can't even measure the great greatest detail

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Speaker 2: of what the stuff is in our bodies. I mean,

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Speaker 2: let's face it, the air that we breathe, the milk

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Speaker 2: that we drink, the food we consume, it all has

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Speaker 2: something toxic in it. I mean, you know, there's arsenic

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Speaker 2: in our food, but it's trace amounts. There's ratpoop in

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Speaker 2: your cheerios, but it's trace amounts. Is this any different?

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Speaker 3: I'm very proud to work in a field that is

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Speaker 3: so protective. USPA follows the lull to say Drinking Water

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Speaker 3: Act when they put this together, I'm not the right

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Speaker 3: person to talk about toxic ecology. I will say that

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Speaker 3: risk is a question and it's something that we have

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Speaker 3: to look at. They're doing their job, they're looking at

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Speaker 3: the science as where they's drinking water. But as you say,

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Speaker 3: there's risk from everything, and so just the water infrastructure.

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Speaker 3: You know, I always like to say every dollar we

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Speaker 3: invest as customers in a new regulation makes it harder

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Speaker 3: to put that dollar in replacement of water botts. And

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Speaker 3: so it's something that is very complex and we all

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Speaker 3: have to be engaged in this. We have to understand it.

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Speaker 3: We're the ones that are paying for this through our

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Speaker 3: rates as customers and knowing working with our utilities. We're

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Speaker 3: lucky to have incredible drinking water utilities in our areas.

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Speaker 3: So I'm not going to touch a political question. That's

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Speaker 3: not where our Senko gets involved. But it's a fair

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Speaker 3: question to talk about the overall risk and just.

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Speaker 2: Balancing that because you hear this stuff and people usually

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Speaker 2: it's new parents start freaking out about this stuff and

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Speaker 2: they start washing there. You know, they have their dishwasher

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Speaker 2: water coming out of a giant bottle of Desanni and

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Speaker 2: it's cost prohibitive and everything else. If I use like

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Speaker 2: a Britta filter on top of my tap water. Does

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Speaker 2: a Brita filter take this stuff out or reverse osmosis?

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Speaker 3: Well, I will talk about Britta because it's a brand name,

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Speaker 3: but I will say that there are filters that can

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Speaker 3: be added. If folks want to do that, they can.

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Speaker 3: They can certainly contact their doctors if if they're concerned

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Speaker 3: about this. So keep in mind that the FDA currently

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Speaker 3: is not regulating bottle of water for pifos, and so

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Speaker 3: this is very complex. I would I would just talk

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Speaker 3: to folks and which I'm doing, and and just comment

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Speaker 3: that it's all of it's all about balance. It's understanding

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Speaker 3: how complex this is. And the U s c p

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Speaker 3: A is doing their job, or State EPAS, Ohio EPA,

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Speaker 3: Tuckt Divisional Water, Indiana Department Environment Management, and they all

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Speaker 3: work within this area. They're they're working as hard as

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Speaker 3: they can on this, and this is complex and it's

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Speaker 3: all about managing risk in safety and following the laws

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Speaker 3: that that we we have approved through Congress, Save Drinking

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Speaker 3: Water Act, Clean Water Acting. So that's what us e

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Speaker 3: PA is trying to do. They would have they would

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Speaker 3: be the ones to talk to you about all the

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Speaker 3: science behind it. This is very complex Scott.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean if if you're so inclined, you know,

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Speaker 2: you could do a filter system. I use the word

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Speaker 2: Britta because it's like clean X or jell O. It's

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Speaker 2: a it's a brand name that's become common. And I

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Speaker 2: look at this and go, okay, look at the risk.

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Speaker 2: Listen to what you had to say. You know you're

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Speaker 2: drinking the tap water. You see this stuff under a microscope.

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Speaker 3: We don't.

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Speaker 2: And if it's good enough for you, it's good enough

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Speaker 2: for me. I sleep well knowing that the drinking water

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Speaker 2: is being policed by yourself, people like yourself, and you're

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Speaker 2: more at the source end. We talked during the East

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Speaker 2: Palestine disaster about the plume that was traveling down the

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Speaker 2: Ohio River. You guys had it all timed out, saying, yah,

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Speaker 2: we're tracking it. Everything's good, it moved out, it dissipated,

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Speaker 2: and all is well at this point too. So if

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Speaker 2: you want to lose sleep over this and get down

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Speaker 2: a rabbit hole, I'm sure there's stuff online that'll scare

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Speaker 2: the hell out of you. However, it is safe to

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Speaker 2: say that most of us aren't one hundred and fifty pounds.

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Speaker 2: I would like to talk next to you. If you

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna have Richard as a guy who sets the

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Speaker 2: average weight for Americans because I think he's a little drunk.

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Speaker 3: Well that's that's the science behind develop these criterias. But

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Speaker 3: I'm not near one hundred and fifty pounds.

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Speaker 2: I just I just flew and there are maybe two

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Speaker 2: people on the plane that were one hundred and fifty

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Speaker 2: pounds and I included the toddlers. So yeah, well, I

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Speaker 2: mean it's true. So what you're saying is if you

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Speaker 2: weigh more, then you can absorb, you can absorb more

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Speaker 2: p foss or is that true.

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Speaker 3: Or I'm not gonna really say that. What I'm saying

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Speaker 3: is that the background that USCPA uses to complete their studies,

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Speaker 3: and so it's important to understand when criteria put out,

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Speaker 3: it's based on a specific methodology that they follow from

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Speaker 3: a science basis.

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Speaker 2: I was trying to make an excuse and say, see

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Speaker 2: that's the upside to obesity.

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Speaker 3: You can.

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Speaker 2: Richard Harrison, the executive Director, is the chief engineer at

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Speaker 2: the Ohio River Valley Water Sanitation Commission. He's the guy

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Speaker 2: policing our water sources in and around Ohio and elsewhere.

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Speaker 2: And Richard I appreciate you coming on the show. I

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Speaker 2: know I didn't want you talking out over your skis

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Speaker 2: a little bit there, and I asked you some questions

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Speaker 2: that were outside of your scope. But I appreciate coming

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Speaker 2: on and trying to give us a basic understanding whether

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Speaker 2: or not our drinking water is safe. And it sounds

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Speaker 2: like it is.

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Speaker 3: Always a pleasure. Scott the best play, take care, Thank.

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Speaker 2: You once again, and we've got a news update in

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Speaker 2: just minutes. Here our first mental health Monday update. Julie

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Speaker 2: hattersh Hear's next Scott's loan seven hundred Deputy Other